S05.E02: Pests

[Uncle JUICE]

10 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I must apologize to you because I missed seeing this post when you first made it (around March 17th). At this time, I no longer remember what my thinking was and so I don't know how to answer you. Please excuse me. Darn it!

NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:). If they really case a recognizable actress like Laura Cohen to appear in a grand total of like seven minutes of screen time in this, the weakest season of the show so far

Spoiler

(did I just watch these two getting married in a warehouse? Also, how many abandoned warehouses are there in the freaking PWC area?!?),

in order to set up a happy ending for Stan in the next season, I gotta really question the storytelling priorities. So no, long story short, Bluxom, YOU ARE NOT EXCUSED. 

 

:-)

[Hecate7]

Quote

The worst line of the entire show -- and again, I LOVE this show -- was when Tim said, regarding what really matters: "... how we treat each other" I rolled my eyes into moon orbit. No - and I mean NO - pastor who went around preaching the importance of Jesus and the Bible (i.e. who was religiously conservative) would be caught dead saying something like that. In fact, conservative Christian pastors would have railed against such an idea - even going so far as to say "it doesn't matter AT ALL how we treat each other, unless you're saved and going to Heaven".

On 3/17/2017 at 8:05 AM, Ina123 said:

Huh? I'm 66 years old and attend the same church I was brought to in my mother's arms. I think the Golden Rule may have been the very first thing I was ever taught in church as a child except for "Jesus Loves Me".

Me, too.

I don't think Pastor Tim was ever a conservative Christian pastor. They have gone out of their way to show that he is liberal and "cool." He is just the sort of pastor who would in fact say that what matters is how we treat each other. I had a grandfather who was a minister, and a very churchy upbringing at first, and nobody ever mentioned "being saved."  I think some denominations do, and others don't. I never heard a Catholic or Episcopalian talk about being saved either.

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 6:44 AM, PinkRibbons said:

I wanted to smack Pasha. (And whatever he said*, it was still not strong enough to be translated as "bullshit". I know because if I haven't heard my father use it, it's not real profanity.) I get it, he's angsty all up inside, but someone his age should look around and thank his lucky stars. He's too old to think the USSR was any kind of a wonderful place compared to the USA. As for complaining about Russia, I look at it this way: when you've spent your whole life screaming on the inside, being able to let it out can be the greatest feeling in the world. And frankly, I think that complaining about Russia is like abs. It takes you the same time to lose your abs as it took to get them. So my mother has now been living here for longer than she lived in the USSR (and by the time she was Pasha's age she wanted out, because she looked at the world around her), so she only complains when I ask her specifically to tell me the dirt. My Papa won't have been here longer than there for another few years, so he's still complaining and more power to him. You can't live a whole life of abuse -- being undervalued, overworked, lacking any justice, underfed and underpaid in one of the richest countries in the world, without any free thought and constantly being lied to by people who don't even believe the words coming out of their own mouths -- and let it fester inside you once it's over.

It's not what Pasha's father says but how he says it. He's constantly whining about the matter where his family has heard his opinions 1000 times if not more. A dinner should be a pleasant matter but he destroyed the mood of his family.

Also, if the decision to defect was done solely By Pasha's father, it's no wonder that his son and wife aren't satisfied to live in the US but long for home, friends, language etc.   

Edited August 23, 2017 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

I must confess that Stan really surprised me - he seems to have a conscience! Or rather, having suffered a bad conscience about what he did to Vlad and what happened to Nina, he seems now willing to follow his conscience.

Although it's doubtful whether he can actually do anything for Oleg, I think it's interesting to show how the Americans use exactly the same reasoning than the Soviets aboyt the ends and means. Although it's clear that in this kind of struggle, you are bound to lose if you never use doubtful methods, it's equally true that base methods in the end destroy even the best and noblest goal.

 From the practical POV, I can't quite comprehend how it would be vital to the US security to learn Oleg's information about the Soviet corruption. My guess is that blackmailing Oleg can backfire on CIA.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:49 AM, Knuckles said:

That said, I despise Tuan. Yes, you did lose your whole family to American bombing...so why get on a boat to come to America? I realize he was a kid, and his choices were limited...but, why leave at all? Why not stay in Vietnam? I would like a fuller explanation of his thinking, just so I could understand his willingness to work with the Russians.  He is the embodiment of biting the hand that feeds you. And why the Russians? Why not head back to Vietnam? I'm puzzled by him.

 If somebody kills your family and then "feeds" you, why on earth you would be thankful towards him, instead of feeling that he simply did a little bit (but not far enough) to atone his crime? Although Tuan's foster father probably wasn't in the war, it's not unusual to blame the whole people.

Regarding why Tuan came to the US, he might have come already with the intention to revenge. Or, he might have got that idea in the US for, however well his foster parents treated him, other people might have discriminated him because of his origin. 

Also, a few Americans could have understood Tuan's traumatic experiences, so he didn't get therapy he would have needed. Instead, he would have to live among the people who, when they dealt the Vietnam war f.ex. in the movies, concentrated only on their own victims whereas the Vietnamese were presentead as villains or at best stereptyped "others".    

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 4:04 PM, JennyMominFL said:

 

I've studied this a lot in the last few years as my specialty is 20th Century European History. We were not really being altruistic and nice with the Marshall plan.  The USA was deathly afraid that other devastated western countries were going to go communist. Most importantly, this included West Germany, our buffer. The USA saw what was happening in Austria, which while initially divided into 4 sectors like Germany, was under Soviet Control until 1955. In short some western countries with strong communist parties, looked like they might be desperate enough to go Communist.

   SO in comes the Marshall Plan saying,"Please don't go commie and we will help you, We  promise". On the other side the USSR viewed this as a Capitalist plot to undermine them. The capitalist west was dangling carrots to get countries back in the fold and the Soviets didn't like it. The Marshall Plan was one of the primary reason the cold war heated up..

No state ever helps altruistically another state. But that's not really bad, on the contrary the best policy is based on the common interests.

As for the origins of the Cold War, it's hardly a chance that those countries who were conquered/liberated by the Red Army became Communist but Stalin respected his deal with Churchill and Roosevelt f.ex. in Greece.  

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Regarding why Tuan came to the US, he might have come already with the intention to revenge. Or, he might have got that idea in the US for, however well his foster parents treated him, other people might have discriminated him because of his origin. 

Since the showrunners seem to consider him a Vietnamese version of Philip and Elizabeth it seems perfectly likely that he was sent as a fake refugee just like they were. Though it would be just as likely that a refugee might prefer to be a vengeful spy against the US than being grateful. Makes perfect sense to me. It would probably also help with any survivor's guilt he felt living in the US.

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 9:05 PM, gwhh said:

E & P come from a third world nation (USSR) was than and still is a 3rd world nation.  Back during the cold war.  They were a 3rd world nation with a 1st world military. 

Anyone who every been to a 2nd or 3rd world nation away from the "nice / tourist" area.  Knows they are bad places.  Where violence is NOT use as a last resort.  Its used right off the bat most of the time.  Where a guy cuts off you finger to get your ring without even thinking about it!  So the default setting for E & P is violence.  They have been using it from day one of there lives.  So it already to go.   

Paige is from the USA.  Where casual violence in the civilized world is rare.  And if needed, other will do it in your name.  So teaching Paige to use violence as a tool will be a long process to make happen.

 In 3rd world nations.  You have to grow up fast.  I think that what E was meaning when she said she tired of treating her like a child  A lot of 1st generations immigrants are shocked by how Americans let there kids grow slowing into an adult at such advantages ages as 16 or 24 or what ever!. 

Stan world never turn into a traitor.  He does not have it in him.  He can act like one.   he learned that working undercover before the show started!  

I knew that 3 world thing would turn into a debate. I meant from ecomincal stand point ONLY.  Not a ideological stand point. 

I think this analysis is too simple. Paige has grown in the American middle-class neighborhood, so of course she isn't used to street violence (although there could be domestic violence but that isn't seen in the series). But if she were an Afro American and lived in the ghetto like Elizabeth's ex-boyfriend, it would be another matter. 

Also, only Philip had an experience of violence in his childhood, Elizabeth hadn't. I wonder if the boys who attacked Philip were just "ordinary" persecutors or "street children" (there were such after the Revolution and after the Soviet Union fell, but I don't know if there were such after the WW2).   

They both had experience that life is hard and difficult which is quite another thing.

I visited Russia from 60ies on and I was never afraid of my safety - but in the 90ies I was and I was also adviced not to move around alone f.ex. in Murmansk and  Priozersk (in the Karelian Isthmus, earlier Käkisalmi).  But it was in New York where one of my travelling companies was actually robbed!

[Roseanna]

On ‎22‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 1:39 AM, Umbelina said:

Honestly, I lived during those times.  I couldn't stand, and absolutely didn't trust Reagan or his advisers, and I certainly was unhappy with the USA lies and actions about everything from Vietnam to Iran/Contra and many things in between, including our behavior with Africa and Central America, and certainly with apartheid .  However, there is no fucking way I wouldn't have gone straight to the FBI.  None.  Zip.  I was politically far more liberal than the Pastor and his idiot wife, but that doesn't mean I would be complicit with deeply embedded RUSSIAN spies operating against the United States.  Not ever, not for any reason, this simply would not happen for me, and the hardest thing about this whole Paige story is that Pastor Tim didn't turn them in.  Worried about Paige and Henry?  Try to work a deal for them, but not let their parents continue to work against my country, let alone Paige (whom I would supposedly care about) continue to live in that situation.

ALSO, I would absolutely not trust them not to kill me, so I'd want FBI protection, relocation, whatever they could offer both me and my family.  RISK YOUR LIFE to protect Russian spies?  oh hell no.

That's one of the things that we are clearly supposed to accept in the context of the show. And it is made easier because if Pastor Tim behaved like an ordinary sensible person, it would be the end of the show.

For some reason, I had no difficulties to accept Pastor Tim, but now I have: I see no reason for P & E to tell any details of their work to Paige. It's definitely against the basic rule of conspiracy: don't tell anything to anybody who has no reason to know.  

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think this analysis is too simple. Paige has grown in the American middle-class neighborhood, so of course she isn't used to street violence (although there could be domestic violence but that isn't seen in the series). But if she were an Afro American and lived in the ghetto like Elizabeth's ex-boyfriend, it would be another matter. 

Yes, this is something that's seemed interesting to me. That the difference between P&E and their kid isn't just about nationality, but about class. Of course Paige feels uncomfortable walking in a "bad area" of DC. There's plenty of people living not that far from her who do grow up with violence, especially gang violence etc. I think that's also the reason Pastor Tim wasn't that scared of Philip when he showed up late at night. He asks him if he's going to beat him up as a way of pointing out that ridiculous that would be. *We* know Philip could do just that, but Tim doesn't. It takes a lot to jolt a person who grew up in a safe middle class environment to stop feeling that safety a default. Learning your parents or the parents of a kid in your church group is not enough. Both of them had a real change about this not because of the revelation of P&E, but when they faced physical violence or danger--Paige when her mother killed someone in front of her and Tim when he was lost in the desert.

Genuinely feeling afraid is more the thing that does it. Philip and Elizabeth never feel safe the way Paige does and it's not just about their job. In some ways P&E get along with and understand underclass Americans they deal with far more than the people they interact with as suburbanites.

Edited September 3, 2017 by sistermagpie