The Americans Retrospective

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

To me the interesting thing about that flashback is how it resonates with other elements of "Dyatkovo." That's the episode where Stan gives Henry a tour of the FBI and Henry is suitably impressed, suggesting that he's being swayed away from his father by the kindness of the "enemy." And of course the main plot is about Philip and Elizabeth tracking a Russian woman who became a Nazi collaborator when she was a teenager, singled out for special treatment and coerced to kill for "no reason" -- echoing Gabriel's description of Philip's father in an earlier episode: "He was nobody. We were all nobodies." That's why to me the flashback isn't just about how Philip's dad could be both loving and cruel but about the same cause and effect we see in those other storylines -- that his dad's kindness could've initiated him into a life of cruelty.

I hadn't even remembered at this moment what ep that was in! To me I guess it doesn't seem so much about the kindness as truth. Because Philip grew up thinking is dad was a kind logger so his behavior wouldn't have led Philip to the same kind of cruelty. Philip's fear in the ep seemed to be more about the hereditary aspect--he didn't know his father worked for them, but the Centre did, so they thought Philip would be good at this work. A suggestion that Gabriel both denies and confirms--Philip was approached completely on his own merits; but his family being loyal wouldn't have hurt.

But perhaps if Philip had truly known his father he would have felt differently about joining himself. Philip's father, Philip himself and Natalie in that episode all have children who don't know their potential dark side. Philip thought his father was a logger, Henry thinks his father is a travel agent and Natalie's children think she's just a nice grandmother. This is in a season where Oleg, too, learns about his family's dark past and he's able to just ask his mother outright to tell him about the camp. She honestly tells him that she will never not associate it with the people Oleg works for now. 

Of course, there's also always the idea that none of these secrets were truly secrets--they knew, they just didn't know how much they knew. Philip doesn't just get told his father was a guard as a shock, he goes to Gabriel to have his suspicions confirmed because he's started to remember clues that he'd had all along. He's remembering them now because he's ready to make that connection. Maybe he has begun to think, thanks to EST especially, that the person he is wasn't just about him but was shaped by forces and expectations outside himself. Not to the point where he isn't responsible for his own choices (just like Natalie) but more than he maybe understood before.

(Weirdly, this line of thought is leading me to think of Stan as a role-model for Henry is a not very positive but interesting way.)

Edited June 10, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

No. 

The entire message of season five was that SPYING SUCKS.  They pounded that into the ground, while boring us silly.  Philip already had plenty of reasons to quit.  That season has tainted the entire series for me really, and it's definitely made me more critical of the writers, who seem like very nice guys.

It was just a waste really, and more often boring and more frustrating to the viewers than it was to our heroes.  In addition to dumping or stranding half the cast away from the action, which carried over to season six.  The ridiculous and frustrating Misha story which not only made no sense, it had no payoff,  the equally ridiculous Renee story, Oleg walking down dark Russian streets and staring off into the distance, just so they could say they filmed in Russia. 

This season also failed in many ways, leaving the FBI office out of it for much too long, no real Residentura anymore, endless gruesome murders.  I'm not saying it didn't have good moments, because it did, and frankly, ANYTHING would shine as compared to the penultimate season.

More than anything though, as more times passes, I'm angrier about them leaving all of our characters in peril and the "no ending ending" and frankly I'm insulted by the writers saying they want everyone to finish every single story on their own.  I know that can rarely be done very well, but in this case, it just wasn't.  

As I've said, I liked the final episode as an episode, but hated it as a finale. The acting was superb, and bought it because of that.  I wouldn't change it EXCEPT to have it be the Penultimate episode instead of the finale.

Have that episode's final scene be something like the moment Stan lets them go, or the phone call to Henry, or Paige getting off the train.  OR extend this episode by another half hour and wrap some stories up, if only in a montage of the future.  Paige being questioned, and released, Stan resigning, Renee being arrested, Aderholt rounding up other illegals, Philip and Elizabeth in their Russian apartment or jobs watching the wall come down, sending money to Henry to continue school, SOMETHING.

It didn't need a bow, but it needed more than the lazy and kind of insulting "write your own ending" interviews. It will be a long time before I watch another of their shows.  Much like LOST bullshit, this one has pissed me off.

[Erin9]

@Umbelina I wonder if another reason we don’t see a flashforward is they didn’t want to deal with the obvious relationship issues. (Unless they did an almost immediate flash forward montage. Then they could have avoided it.) I know they said they wanted us to make up our own end. But, they also wanted to show P/E paying by showing them literally stuck in one country while their kids live in a country they can’t enter.

Any going too far forward would either show bitterness/anger  on the part of the kids (which imo is horrible place to leave them for years on end- especially Henry) and refusing to communicate  - OR it would show them working on the relationship (the option I go with). Hard to really show punishment if they are at least in communication with each other. 

I also think it is the real reason Mischa isn’t mentioned. I think they said they ran out of time or something. But- the impact of P/E losing their kids is lessened if we get a verbal or visual reminder that Mischa has a relationship with Philip’s family. And Philip will of course get to know him. There is really zero doubt of that imo. This is Philip. 

Thing is P\E will always pay to an extent. They live in a different country from their kids. They don’t get to be the McDonald’s family. They wanted to keep their family intact, in the same country- even as they were constantly being hit with having very American children. That won’t be. 

On another note- I’m doing a re-watch and one of the things I’m looking at is Philip’s attitude towards Stan:  When he stopped just seeing him as an enemy to be watched/kept close. I don’t really think it was S1.

Though Stan knocking on Philip’s motel door jokingly yelling FBI is hilarious. Especially Philip quickly processing that Stan was KIDDING. That surely marked one of their first personal conversations though. Well- mostly Stan. Philip trusted the kids to Stan when Elizabeth got shot, but I think it was more necessity than anything else. They were that isolated: they had the FBI agent tracking them as their only option. 

[Pink-n-Green]

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

On another note- I’m doing a re-watch and one of the things I’m looking at is Philip’s attitude towards Stan:  When he stopped just seeing him as an enemy to be watched/kept close. I don’t really think it was S1.

I would be very interested to read your opinion as to when Philip started seeing Stan as a friend.  I've tried to look back and remember but I don't know when "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" became "Hey buddy, wanna share a six pack???"!

 

Also:  Does anyone read lips???  I'd love to know what Philip and Elizabeth were saying on the train after Paige decided to not go with them.

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

On another note- I’m doing a re-watch and one of the things I’m looking at is Philip’s attitude towards Stan:  When he stopped just seeing him as an enemy to be watched/kept close. I don’t really think it was S1.

Definitely not season 1, imo. He's seeing him as the enemy at the end there. There's some point in S2 when Philip tells Elizabeth that Stan told him about the affair finally and when she asks how Philip got him to tell him Philip says, "We're friends."

That struck me at the time. I don't think at the time that Philip is really saying they're friends, but he is seeing the relationship as a friendship on Stan's side so it's not strange for him to do that. More importantly, he's no longer defensively correcting Elizabeth that he's actually working him.

9 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Also:  Does anyone read lips???  I'd love to know what Philip and Elizabeth were saying on the train after Paige decided to not go with them.

Did they say something? I thought they just sat side by side in silence.

[Plums]

48 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

On another note- I’m doing a re-watch and one of the things I’m looking at is Philip’s attitude towards Stan:  When he stopped just seeing him as an enemy to be watched/kept close. I don’t really think it was S1.

Definitely not season 1, imo. He's seeing him as the enemy at the end there. There's some point in S2 when Philip tells Elizabeth that Stan told him about the affair finally and when she asks how Philip got him to tell him Philip says, "We're friends."

 

What I remember loving so much about that "we're friends" moment, was Elizabeth's kind of incredulous reaction to it, like she was expecting Philip to describe how he manipulated Stan into admitting to the affair, but no, no spy craft involved there, just a guy confiding in his bro. And it was like the notion was so weird to her, lol.

I'm thinking the reason why the Jenningses never cultivated actual friendships with anyone, like, not the parents of their kids' friends or whatever, is mostly on Elizabeth. Like, you see Philip out line dancing with his employees because he thinks it's fun and presumably enjoys spending the off-the-clock time with them. But with Elizabeth, it feels like all of her genuine relationships with people outside her family all had to do with the job. She became close to the other spies she worked with, and all the other times she played friendly with any other Americans, including Stan and his family, it was solely for the sake of her cover, and she never actually cared about them. She came to genuinely care for some of the people she targeted in her operations, like Young Hee, but as Elizabeth Jennings, it's like she just didn't bother making the effort because she didn't have to. But that doesn't seem typical at all. She even seemed to understand it was a problem and worry about it in season 2 after Emmett and Leanne were killed, when she wondered about what would happen to the kids if she and Philip were gone, because they didn't have any friends. He said the Beemans would take them, and at the time Elizabeth took it as a joke, and Philip may have only been half serious when he said it, but it's true that the Beemans in season 2, people Philip and Elizabeth had only known for about a year, give or take, were the closest thing they had to real friends that we saw, and then only because Philip originally wanted to cultivate a friendship with Stan to use as a potential source. You look at Emmett and Leanne, in the brief time we saw them though, and they were super involved in their kids' lives and school, Jared moved in with a normal family that was close enough to them to take him in without question. So it's not like the Directorate S officers were discouraged from forming friendships with people in the course of their cover lives. With no family, you'd think it would actually be an encouraged thing to do. So it feels like it's just something with the Jenningses specifically. Anyway, just something the conversation is making me wonder about. 

With regards to when Philip really became Stan's friend- Philip is naturally more empathetic I think than Elizabeth, when it comes to the people he interacts with a lot. Or less able to compartmentalize. When he's playing characters that care about people, that take care of people, it's very easy for him to become the mask. He played the part of Martha's husband for 2-3 years, and that turned into a very genuine depth of feeling for her, even if it wasn't ever romantic love. He cared about Kimmy in an almost paternal way (that is a super interesting relationship to me btw), and I think when Stan was going through his divorce and then was single, after Nina was gone, when he really started to lean on Philip as a friend because his personal life was such a lonesome disaster, Philip probably genuinely came to reciprocally care about him as a friend at that time. Philip has always had a weakness for vulnerable people who need him. He never stopped reporting on Stan, but I don't think that's particularly relevant to how he felt. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Plums
add word for clarity

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I would be very interested to read your opinion as to when Philip started seeing Stan as a friend.  I've tried to look back and remember but I don't know when "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" became "Hey buddy, wanna share a six pack???"!

 

Also:  Does anyone read lips???  I'd love to know what Philip and Elizabeth were saying on the train after Paige decided to not go with them.

I think @sistermagpie is right, the friendship really began that night Stan confessed, over drinks at a bar with Philip, that he was having an affair.  For Stan, I think the friendship began earlier since he wasn't hiding his life.  The Racquetball, the beers to Philip's lonely motel room when Philip separated from Elizabeth.

[Erin9]

IA- I think the friendship on Stan’s side began much sooner. He had nothing to hide.

I haven’t gotten to the episode where Stan confesses the affair yet, but I have to be close because I’ve started S2. I do remember that scene standing out- that and Philip telling Elizabeth that Stan had just told him about the affair. IE- He didn’t work Stan for the info. Stan told him because they were friends.

I hadn’t thought about that: Philip isn’t actually sticking to the idea that he is ONLY hanging out with Stan because he’s FBI anymore by the time Stan confesses.  So- yes- this may be the beginning of the friendship. Also, Stan is being personal with him,  and it really has nothing to do with work. Philip is an empathetic person. So, that would factor in too. 

The earlier conversation was Stan being personal about the loss of his partner, but obviously Philip would have seen that whole situation differently. Still- I wonder if maybe Philip started seeing Stan as a person at that point. Not a friend. But as a person and not solely  a FBI agent. He was talking about work, but it was very personal. 

[Umbelina]

Another thing on re-watch that stands out.  Nina was a very good agent for Stan for quite a while, in fact, I think she spent more time as his agent than she did as a triple agent.  Even then, she actually seemed to, at least partially enjoy his company.  

Up until she realized he killed Vlad she was loyal and useful for the FBI. 

Spies lie all the time, not just KGB spies, but any and all covert spies routinely have to lie.  It's hard to have friendships at all when you are always lying to them.  Philip really tried hard to find the "real" in his friendship with Stan, but he always had to be guarded, and he frequently used information from Stan in small ways.  Elizabeth had that with Young Hee as well, I think she may have been Elizabeth's only real friend as well, or rather, as real as Elizabeth could allow.

Martha and Nina were really the glory days of this show, both brought so much to the story.  Breaking up the Residentura was a huge mistake. 

I don't understand why we had to lose 1/2 the cast after season 4.  Some of them?  Yes.  Nina's death and Martha's end made sense and were amazing TV.  I can't even remember all the people we lost, but the show suffered for it.  Gaad, Arkady, Oleg (at least from interacting with anyone else we knew) Nina, Martha, Gabe, William (again, beautifully done, but just another cast member gone.)

Oh, another small nitpick, WHY didn't Israel tell Anton's son that the USSR had recaptured him?  Why would they let his son suffer, and honestly, why would the KGB not allow him to send a heavily edited letter to his wife and son?  They needed him at his best, it would have been a pretty small thing, or they could have done it themselves and told Anton that his family had been notified.  That bugged me at the time, and honestly I wasn't terribly fond of Nina sacrificing her life for some idiotic kind of redemption.  She could have completed her mission, heck, it was already completed really, be let go, and then found ways to atone.

[Plums]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Another thing on re-watch that stands out.  Nina was a very good agent for Stan for quite a while, in fact, I think she spent more time as his agent than she did as a triple agent.  Even then, she actually seemed to, at least partially enjoy his company.  

Up until she realized he killed Vlad she was loyal and useful for the FBI. 

Nina was such a good source she got P&E tortured because the Center was so mad about the things that were being leaked! And she was so above suspicion Arkady came to trust her enough to let her in on the illegals operations.

I think her ultimately turning triple agent was a combination of knowing the FBI killed Vlad and Stan was lying about not knowing anything about it (I don't know if she knew for sure it was definitely Stan until after she had already turned, when they played the tape of Stan and Gaad talking about it from the office bug) and a combination of her loyalty to her country. She made the decision to confess after Arkady made a show up explicitly trusting her and making her read aloud an oath of loyalty to the Soviet Union. That oath genuinely moved and guilted her. Nina was such a wonderfully complex person. She confessed to treason out of a genuine love and loyalty to her homeland, even when she knew that homeland would kill her for it. This, after she spent so long working to eventually be relocated in America. It's one of the bravest, most noble acts from any character in this show.  

I think Stan will eventually figure out Nina turned triple agent. He's been going over everything from the beginning since he started suspecting P&E, and now the whole office will be going over those old cases. Knowing now that Philip and Elizabeth were Directorate S officers, and presumably after interviewing the kids and from Stan's own recollections, they'll be able to put together a timetable of a lot of the operations they were involved in. It's not going to take much for Stan to remember shooting the female half of the illegal couple during the Weinberger debacle coinciding with Elizabeth's sudden two month disappearance to take care of a sick aunt. Nina originally told him the woman died and the man was exfiltrated. Now that's obviously a lie, and even before Stan suspected them, he guessed the woman who beat up Dennis and Gaad was the same woman. There was that knowing, icy look Nina gave him during the lie detector test when she was asked if she knew who killed Vlad and she said "yes". He'll remember and know she turned and was playing him. Plus the relationship with Oleg? I wonder what Oleg'll say now that there's no one to protect.  In any case, Stan has probably known she was playing him on some level for awhile, but now he won't be able to deny it. And he'll probably realize he was the one who blew the trap in season 1 because he told her about it that morning. The next few weeks will probably be the shittiest time ever in Stan's life. And Dennis too, who actually saw Elizabeth and heard her speak before they physically fought each other, will be dumbfounded how he never recognized her.

The more I think about Stan's future, the more sure I am that if he doesn't just straight up quit the FBI, he's definitely transferring to a field office. 

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Plums said:

What I remember loving so much about that "we're friends" moment, was Elizabeth's kind of incredulous reaction to it, like she was expecting Philip to describe how he manipulated Stan into admitting to the affair, but no, no spy craft involved there, just a guy confiding in his bro. And it was like the notion was so weird to her, lol.

Yup, and Philip even says this to her in that conversation you mentioned about who the kids would live with. She says they don't have any friends and Philip mutters, "Isn't that the way you wanted it?" So yeah, I think we can definitely assume that she protected their house from any American friendships. 

I think that's also why Philip is able to be friends with Stan--he clings to the "I'm working him" idea partly because of course he has to work him too, but also because he can have a friend and pretend it's work. From the beginning he enjoyed having a racketball partner at the very least!

12 hours ago, Plums said:

 You look at Emmett and Leanne, in the brief time we saw them though, and they were super involved in their kids' lives and school, Jared moved in with a normal family that was close enough to them to take him in without question. So it's not like the Directorate S officers were discouraged from forming friendships with people in the course of their cover lives. With no family, you'd think it would actually be an encouraged thing to do. So it feels like it's just something with the Jenningses specifically. Anyway, just something the conversation is making me wonder about. 

I don't know that we know any of that about the Connors, actually. I think it's just implied they have the normal involvement expected from them at school, which the Jennings would also have, and the family Jared lives with is a family he babysat for. I could be mis-remembering but I got the impression they were fond of Jared rather than longterm friends of the parents. But like I said I might be remembering that wrong.

[Plums]

37 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

don't know that we know any of that about the Connors, actually. I think it's just implied they have the normal involvement expected from them at school, which the Jennings would also have, and the family Jared lives with is a family he babysat for. I could be mis-remembering but I got the impression they were fond of Jared rather than longterm friends of the parents. But like I said I might be remembering that wrong.

No, actually I think you're right! 

[companionenvy]

This conversation brings up a question I've always had, which is what exactly Elizabeth and Philip's "go to" stories about their past were - both for friends, and for Paige and Henry. We know that, other than "Aunt Helen," who was invented purely in order to provide an explanation for Elizabeth's absence after she was shot, there isn't any extended "family." Elizabeth and Claudia pose as "Clark"'s sister and mother when Philip marries Martha, but I suppose doing that for the primary Jennings identities would have been too risky, as it would have meant that any one of their network going down would automatically bring down the entire cell. But still and all, I have to believe that P&E would have had to have a pretty developed autobiography. It comes so automatically to most of us that we don't even think about it, but it isn't actually that uncommon to be in a casual conversation in which it would be appropriate to talk about, not only parents, but college, childhood, etc. 

That's also a potential reason that while the illegals would have been expected to take part in community and school events, they might not have been encouraged to develop friendships, especially at first. By the time they meet Stan, the Jenningses have lived in America for 15 years, so there's plenty of history to talk about while mostly steering clear of the more distant past. In the beginning, gaps would have been more glaring, I think, and even by the end, I can imagine there being all kinds of potential minefields. I mean, even something as simple as meeting someone who grew up in the same supposed hometown in the same time period could have led to a conversation that raised red flags.

I haven't read much about the real illegals who P&E were based on, but I had some of the same questions about them, especially as related to their children. It isn't unheard of two parents of young children not to have parents of their own or any other extended family, but it is unusual, and at a certain point, kids are going to notice that. 

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

This conversation brings up a question I've always had, which is what exactly Elizabeth and Philip's "go to" stories about their past were - both for friends, and for Paige and Henry. We know that, other than "Aunt Helen," who was invented purely in order to provide an explanation for Elizabeth's absence after she was shot, there isn't any extended "family."

Paige does actually at one point mention meeting a cousin--I think a cousin of one of her parents? She has a picture of them somewhere in a photo album and demands to know if this person was really a cousin and they have to say no. So at least once they also dragged in a person and said they were a cousin.

18 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

 It comes so automatically to most of us that we don't even think about it, but it isn't actually that uncommon to be in a casual conversation in which it would be appropriate to talk about, not only parents, but college, childhood, etc. 

I think that's what Zhukov is getting them to start doing in that flashback to when they met. They meet as Elizabeth and Philip and "get to know each other" in English with those backstories. So they would have started with each other telling their life stories that they've memorized from the information they were given.

But they also could have been the type of people who knew how to avoid those questions as best they could. Some people just don't much like to talk about that sort of thing and they'd probably become very good at deflecting conversation and giving non-answers. When Renee asks where they're from Elizabeth happily says they're from Chicago and Pittsburgh and Philip also has a neighborhood where he says he grew up. (Renee claims to have an uncle somewhere in the area I think.) 

I wonder if they didn't improvise certain stories they could tell if necessary, especially about their childhood. Elizabeth used to always say that they were poor to Paige, so she was able to integrate that part of the biography. And when Philip first told Paige that his father died when he was 6 I wasn't sure if we should take that as accurate to reality or just his Philip Jennings backstory. (They'd both have to be orphans, presumably.) But it turned out that was true in reality too.

18 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I haven't read much about the real illegals who P&E were based on, but I had some of the same questions about them, especially as related to their children. It isn't unheard of two parents of young children not to have parents of their own or any other extended family, but it is unusual, and at a certain point, kids are going to notice that. 

I remember one couple claimed to be French Canadian and living in the US, which is why they had accents. (Even though the accents weren't French Canadian!) I also could swear the kids talked about meeting grandparents when they were younger but only until they noticed that the grandparents couldn't speak English or French, which I believe they spoke at home. Which seemed weird to me because it seems like you'd notice that pretty fast! They'd get presents from them, I think. But then, their family had an intentionally cosmopolitan flavor where the Jennings were trying to seem aggressively all-American so no French at home or European grandparents!

Edited June 11, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Pink-n-Green]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

When Renee asks where they're from Elizabeth happily says they're from Chicago and Pittsburgh and Philip also has a neighborhood where he says he grew up.

I missed that!  Do you remember the name of the neighborhood Philip said he grew up in?

[companionenvy]

I get that they had basic backstories; the question is what would have happened if someone had pushed a little more. Chicago and Pittsburgh aren't remote villages. It isn't that unlikely that one of them would have at some point run across someone who actually knew these places too well to be put off by the name of a neighborhood and a couple of local references. 

I guess there would be ways of acquitting yourself in conversations; for instance, if you are unlucky enough to meet someone roughly your age from the same neighborhood you claim to hail from, have the name of multiple area high schools in mind so that you can always claim to have gone to the school that the person you are talking to didn't, explaining lack of common acquaintances. But more than that, I suppose they were relying on the fact that even if they said something slightly hinky, the average person isn't going to recognize the significance or give it much thought. At worst, you may have a Stavos situation, where he thinks that something is sketchy but doesn't know what. 

It does reinforce for me how Philip really isn't lying when he tells Stan that he was terrified when Stan moved across the street. Because if they screw up around an FBI agent, he may actually be paranoid/knowledgeable enough not to handwave it as a slightly odd conversation, especially if he's noticed that they seem to have business emergencies way more often than the average travel agent. 

[Umbelina]

For deep cover operations both the CIA and the KGB would create involved back stories.  They would, and did, for example, do simple break ins (back then computerized data wasn't around, it would actually be even simpler now to just hack some computers) and change things like school records, baptism records in churches, stuff like that. 

The records would often have them move around quite a bit, or live in large apartment buildings where it's less likely to know all of your neighbors, and to have people move in and out.  Again, simple break ins could change records of who lived there.  Basically, large departments in both the KGB and CIA or FBI are devoted to nothing but paper trails for deep cover spies.

For lighter cover, such as quick in and outs to say Cuba, posing as a French businessman or whatever?  The paper trail would hold up, as long as it wasn't looked at too carefully, and would be less extensive.  Friendly governments like France and especially the UK assisted when needed, providing documentation and back stories.  We returned the favors.

In the case of the caught spies here in 2010?  They started them as Canadian citizens who frequently traveled for work in Europe, and other places, by the time they were here, a complicated paper trail was established.

In the real life spy thread I mention a book I bought about this kind of thing, it's astonishing how much they could, and did do.

[Erin9]

I finally saw the episode where Stan tells Philip he’s having an affair. It’s much more interesting than I recalled. Stan just blurts out, no lead in. 

Philip says he’s thought about having an affair. Stan says he hadn’t- not sure if he means never thought, cheated before or both. But I think he meant actually cheated.

 If we mean Philip as Philip thinking about having an emotional/physical affair a la Gregory before they were real- I totally believe it. I bet he did. He had to be lonely.  And he did cheat on Elizabeth with Irina- albeit right after finding out Elizabeth had informed on him. Extreme circumstances there. So he’s thought and done- though I can see him not wanting to ruin his good guy image with Stan by saying he has. Plus- trying to explain the why of it would be a bit complicated.lol 

They both agree that who knows if a marriage is ever really solid. But- the most telling part is Philip talking about how you love your wife “but  day to day crap starts to creep in” which does nicely sum up a lot of his and Elizabeth’s problems. Whereas for Stan the problem is they don’t talk at all. They live separate lives. Stan can’t talk about his job, doesn’t really want to, but his mistress understands what he does, sees him in a different way. IOW- Sandra doesn’t get him. Doesn’t know him. That being said- Stan never lets her. And he could have done more on that front. It’s an interesting contrast of relationships as well as what Philip chooses to say- and not say. 

The other interesting parts are the bookends of the scene - Stan telling Philip about having to live with taking a life while Philip talks about travel agenting and Stan tells him how lucky he is to have a happy job. I liked those scenes where they played with Philip really knowing just EXACTLY where Stan was coming from, but Stan didn’t know he knew. On some subconscious level, maybe Stan knew he got it. 

Philip telling Elizabeth was short and sweet, but she was definitely surprised that Stan just told him because they’re friends. No working him to get it. She really didn’t seem to understand much about friendship. Why someone would just confide like that. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I get that they had basic backstories; the question is what would have happened if someone had pushed a little more. Chicago and Pittsburgh aren't remote villages. It isn't that unlikely that one of them would have at some point run across someone who actually knew these places too well to be put off by the name of a neighborhood and a couple of local references. 

Oh, I think they would definitely be prepared for that. They'd be very aware that they could run into someone from these places. I'd imagine they visited both places soon after arriving to even familiarize themselves with it and even what was no longer there, plus explanations for why they might not be as familiar with it as all that. They'd learn enough to know what to do if they ran into the worst possible person, I imagine!

It's funny--I was on a trip a while ago and met this woman who seemed to exaggerate everything about herself. There was nowhere in the world, it seemed, that she hadn't lived. She was always telling people she was from two places, one the city that I live in. Only there was a couple of times when she'd say something that made me think no, you don't live here at all. What was funny was eventually another woman asked her exactly where she lived and then she said that she actually lived in a town outside the city...which happened to be exactly the town where I grew up and, it turned, out where this other woman's husband had family. So she and I were all "what are the chances?" and talking about the place while the woman claiming to live there obviously did not even really understand the kind of place she was describing. Like I don't even know where she came across the name.

Reminds me of Renee and whatever that famous slip-up was about the college team.

[Plums]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I get that they had basic backstories; the question is what would have happened if someone had pushed a little more. Chicago and Pittsburgh aren't remote villages. It isn't that unlikely that one of them would have at some point run across someone who actually knew these places too well to be put off by the name of a neighborhood and a couple of local references. 

Oh, I think they would definitely be prepared for that. They'd be very aware that they could run into someone from these places. I'd imagine they visited both places soon after arriving to even familiarize themselves with it and even what was no longer there, plus explanations for why they might not be as familiar with it as all that. They'd learn enough to know what to do if they ran into the worst possible person, I imagine!

It's funny--I was on a trip a while ago and met this woman who seemed to exaggerate everything about herself. There was nowhere in the world, it seemed, that she hadn't lived. She was always telling people she was from two places, one the city that I live in. Only there was a couple of times when she'd say something that made me think no, you don't live here at all. What was funny was eventually another woman asked her exactly where she lived and then she said that she actually lived in a town outside the city...which happened to be exactly the town where I grew up and, it turned, out where this other woman's husband had family. So she and I were all "what are the chances?" and talking about the place while the woman claiming to live there obviously did not even really understand the kind of place she was describing. Like I don't even know where she came across the name.

Reminds me of Renee and whatever that famous slip-up was about the college team.

I could be misremembering, but didn't they train together for like 3 years before they even arrived in America? They met in April 1962, and then they didn't get to the Virginia hotel until August 1965. That is plenty of time to research backstories and work out believable anecdotes from their fake pasts. I actually just went back to the pilot to check this out, and I've never considered it before, but 3 years is a long time. They started working together basically when they were Paige's age in s6. I don't know how old Philip is, but if they're the same age, they'd be what, 19 when they met? Since Elizabeth says she arrived in America when she was 22. Now I'm completely fascinated by those three years they were training in Russia together. I understand even more how hurt and taken aback Philip was when she described being "in a strange country, with a strange man" during her explanation and apology about Gregory, lol. Like, how distant could she have been in those three years when they were working together on finessing their spycraft and cover story? And he had fallen in love with her at first sight too, omg. 

Your story about the Renee lady is funny. People who give off fake vibes like that are so disconcerting. And the slip up with the college is calling Indiana University "U of I". that whole monologue from her was off though. She's lucky Stan was totally distracted and not paying close attention to her. She was just dropping all these details about places in such an unnatural way, like she was showing off that she had memorized them for just such an anecdote. I'm gonna transcribe it, just to see if I'm not crazy about this-
"My friend Jenny and I were driving to Arcadia National Park, in Maine. She's a hiker. We stopped in Bloomington, Indiana (cause Jenny went to school at the U of I), and it was real hot, so we went skinny dipping in the rooftop quarry. And it was right there. It was right there where they shot that." 
That's just weird, isn't it? All these irrelevant details leading up to her just pointing out that she had gone skinny dipping with a friend in the same place that was on screen in the movie they were watching. She could have just said, "When I was in college, my friend Jenny and I were on a road trip and went skinny dipping right there" But no, she has to let him know she knows what state Arcadia National Park is in, and the reason why they were going there. She has to let him know she knows the town the university she's casually name dropping an incorrect shorthand for is in. It just comes off weird. 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Plums said:

I understand even more how hurt and taken aback Philip was when she described being "in a strange country, with a strange man" during her explanation and apology about Gregory, lol. Like, how distant could she have been in those three years when they were working together on finessing their spycraft and cover story? And he had fallen in love with her at first sight too, omg. 

Yes! I think that definitely must be such a weird moment for Philip. I remember thinking of it later, too, when they're talking about Jared having to make his way on his own in a different country. Philip says they did it and Elizabeth says, "We had each other." Couldn't help but think...yes, you had that strange man!

5 minutes ago, Plums said:

That's just weird, isn't it? All these irrelevant details leading up to her just pointing out that she had gone skinny dipping with a friend in the same place that was on screen in the movie they were watching. She could have just said, "When I was in college, my friend Jenny and I were on a road trip and went skinny dipping right there" But no, she has to let him know she knows what state Arcadia National Park is in, and the reason why they were going there. She has to let him know she knows the town the university she's casually name dropping an incorrect shorthand for is in. It just comes off weird. 

Wow, you're right. It's not even the slip up about the college because I guess at least she didn't go there, but like you say, all those irrelevant details. Just say you went skinny dipping with a friend there. Especially since it doesn't seem like she just does that all the time, you know? She's not the type of person that's always going on and on about her life, it's just these moments where she ties herself to a specific place in America. When they go out to dinner she asks where Philip and Elizabeth are from and volunteers the thing about her uncle. I feel like that's maybe a place where Philip is thinking...you seem fake.

[Plums]

I just noticed that in 3x06, before Paige knew (sidenote- I had forgotten just how deep the rift over Paige being recruited got between Philip and Elizabeth, and how long it was a thing before she even knew the truth, mostly because I never made a habit of rewatching early season 3 before the series ended, but it hit me all over again just how expansive and defining a source of conflict that was between them from the season 2 finale all the way to the end of the series), Philip has a talk with Paige in her bedroom where he talks about wanting her to stay true to herself and not let anyone pressure her into making decisions for her own good, because she is the only person who knows what's best for her. And at the time, she's being dismissive of him because she doesn't know about the spying and thinks he's just being weird. And the entire phone conversation with Henry feels like such an echo of that same conversation with Paige. It's a repetition of the exact same sentiment, Philip telling his kids he just wants them to be themselves and choose for themselves, with the kid not taking it seriously, and I like the idea that the look Paige gets when she hears Philip say that to Henry is her remembering when he said it to her, but now with the context to actually appreciate the weight of what he was saying. It won't take as long for Henry to understand the sentiment in hindsight.

It's just one moment in a series of moments where I think we see Paige's resolve form and firm to stay behind. It's also why I think she'll eventually reconcile with her parents when the borders open. the focus of the last couple seasons was so centered on the mother daughter relationship, but rewatching the series is so wrenching because Philip and Paige had such a lovely, complex relationship, and even if she has a hard time reconciling with her mother, I think it'll be a faster process due to her wanting to reconcile with her father. I think she'll come to realize he always had her best interests in mind more than her mother did, even if he never definitively acted on those interests when doing so would have meant abandoning or betraying Elizabeth. And Philip and Paige were distant and at odds in the final season, but they never fell out the way Paige and Elizabeth did. Even the fight in her apartment seemed more to push Paige closer to her father and further away from Elizabeth, imo. Because he was being honest with her in a way Elizabeth hadn't been, and Paige knows and values that. 

[sistermagpie]

59 minutes ago, Plums said:

It's a repetition of the exact same sentiment, Philip telling his kids he just wants them to be themselves and choose for themselves, with the kid not taking it seriously, and I like the idea that the look Paige gets when she hears Philip say that to Henry is her remembering when he said it to her, but now with the context to actually appreciate the weight of what he was saying. It won't take as long for Henry to understand the sentiment in hindsight.

Yes! I loved that scene at the time and I thought exactly the same thing when he said it to Henry and hoped Paige remembered it. So much of S6 reminded me of S3 that way because both times Paige is dismissive of Philip because she mistakenly thinks that she's not being taken seriously unless she's being told what to do and asked to do things. She desperately wants to be accepted as good enough to be enlisted and Philip is trying to keep all these people away from her and let her find her own way. I don't know if she ever quite gets just how deep that desire is in Philip to let his kids become who they really are instead of what someone else wants them to be--that is, I don't know if she can fully appreciate how much he sees that as a valuable talent they have that he doesn't--but but seeing him say that to Henry as the one thing to remember must have made an impression.

It's another way that in the final season that quiet stubbornness of Philip really comes through

[Umbelina]

Quote

Barack Obama

4 hrs ·

I’m often asked what I’m reading, watching, and listening to, so I thought I might share a short list from time to time. There’s so much good writing and art and variety of thought out there these days that this is by no means comprehensive – like many of you, I’ll miss “The Americans” – but here’s what I’ve been reading lately. It’s admittedly a slightly heavier list than what I’ll be reading over the summer:

Wait.  What?

Did anyone know the Obama's watched this too?  He started his post this way.  I love it.  Aw, he'll miss it too.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Did anyone know the Obama's watched this too?  He started his post this way.  I love it.  Aw, he'll miss it too.

I believe that's one of the reasons Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys were invited to that dinner where they sat at Michelle's table.

[Erin9]

I just re-watched the deal, which I remember @sistermagpie saying was a favorite of hers. I remembered loving it too, but it’s particularly fascinating given how the show ended. (In fact- I zipped from this episode to re-watching key parts of the coup story.) 

Arkady says that Russians will sacrifice people for principles, but he wouldn’t. As in- he’d do what it took to make a deal with the Israelis and save Philip. He cared about the man. Arkady was always like that. Cared about people- ie Nina, etc. He also showed he’d fight for his cause- whatever cause that was. He’d risk his career in this case, his life later. He’d put his money where his mouth was so to speak. 

Oleg originally sees arkady as being a typical unimaginative bureaucrat, but obviously has to revise that when Arkady lets him lead Stan in the wrong direction. Years later- 2 men who always saw things a bit differently, were risk takers, joined forces in a much riskier venture. (Of course,  Oleg’s involvement with the virus fiasco was another reason Arkady trusted him.) 

This really makes me wish we could have seen the 3 men together in a scene. They had much in common, as Arkady rightly saw. Or at least more of Philip/Oleg. In my mind, Arkady and Philip become friends. They’re enough alike. It would make sense. (I bet Arkady was really glad he’d gone out of his way to save Philip a couple of times, seeing as he needed him later. Lol)

This also marks the beginning of Stan and Oleg’s frenemies relationship.....starting with Oleg trying to turn Stan. Not to mention tricking Stan by getting him to follow him. 

Philip talking to the Moussad agent was all kinds of fascinating noting he only lied about what he did, not who he was, was great. And he finally saw a crack in Philip- that he did miss things about home. 

Anton questioning if they had trained everything out of him, who he was, was just unbearably sad. I’m sure they trained a lot out of him and Elizabeth, though certainly not as much as Anton states. But in Philip’s case he always had a strong interest in family, helping people, was more of a thinker. Those basic things stayed with him. Elizabeth not so much. She may have always had less to lose in a way - but needed to gain more in the end too. 

E/P laying on the couch together talking about icicles was always classic. Everything from their body language to the dislogue was lovely. 

[Plums]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

Oleg originally sees arkady as being a typical unimaginative bureaucrat, but obviously has to revise that when Arkady lets him lead Stan in the wrong direction. Years later- 2 men who always saw things a bit differently, were risk takers, joined forces in a much riskier venture. (Of course,  Oleg’s involvement with the virus fiasco was another reason Arkady trusted him.) 

This really makes me wish we could have seen the 3 men together in a scene. They had much in common, as Arkady rightly saw. Or at least more of Philip/Oleg. In my mind, Arkady and Philip become friends. They’re enough alike. It would make sense. (I bet Arkady was really glad he’d gone out of his way to save Philip a couple of times, seeing as he needed him later. Lol)

Oleg originally saw Arkady as a typical unimaginative bureaucrat, and Arkady originally saw Oleg as a spoiled, arrogant product of nepotism whose very presence in his rezidentura was a symbol of the downfall of his country, lol.

I love how quickly they come to respect each other, and I seriously love how Arkady realized Oleg was the one who gave the Americans William and blew the entire bioweapons operation, but he understood why he did it, and it only made him view Oleg as more trustworthy and patriotic. Arkady is one of the most fascinating characters to me, simply because he wasn't out in the field like Philip was, he was a high level bureaucrat in the KGB, but he still became disillusioned with the organization while remaining a loyal idealist. He understood the difference between state and country in a way not a lot of other soviet characters did. Like, we see Claudia and Gabriel talking about Philip when they're arguing over whether they should let him know Mischa has come to meet him and whether they should let it happen. Claudia's main argument is that Philip has entries in his file that already "don't look good", that he's shaky, and potentially hearing from his son that he was thrown into a lunatic asylum for criticizing a war would be disastrous. Gabriel agrees with that assessment. Then you flash forward to Arkady's recruitment of Oleg, and he says he's spent a lot of time with Philip's file, and his understanding of it is completely different. Philip can be brought in on the secret operation because he thinks more like they do. He's trustworthy. He's a true patriot, like they are.

One thing you notice about Arkady when he's Rezident, is that often when something bad has happened, you see him contemplating the bust of Lenin they have there. You also see the painting of Lenin associated with Oleg whenever he's on the verge of some technically treasonous action. They're loyal to the very foundational ideals of the Soviet Union, not the bureaucracy. They are motivated in their work to protect and preserve that. Not the corrupt state Stalin made it. Whereas Claudia and Gabriel's patriotism was formed in the heart of Stalin's USSR, the purges and the war. They're motivated by pure survival, and survival means defeating the opposition, not building something, not any aspirational ideal. Elizabeth's patriotism is motivated by a combination of the two, which is why I think she's able to turn in the end.  

[Erin9]

@Plums I almost went back and added that Arkady’s original assessment of Oleg being just a rich playboy who was only there because of his father’s influence turned out to be wrong.....but I was tired of typing. Lol So, I’m glad you said that. 

Fascinating parallels between Gabriel and Claudia’s read of his file vs Arkady’s. I hadn’t thought about that at all. They see him as a threat because he’s already voiced opposition to the status quo (like his son) and proven his ability for independent thought and that means he’ll potentially turn traitor, defect, etc. One more disillusionment, and he’s gone.  He already likes America too much. 

But Arkady sees him as a man who really cares about his country and about what he’s doing for it....and is therefore a patriot- the perfect person to recruit. He cares so much- he talks, thinks things through.  He’ll embrace going outside the box. And he’ll DO. He hasn’t just become American the way everyone is so quick to assume. He and Oleg got disillusioned for similar reasons- they both saw things as messed up. 

Philip is useful for anyone who isn’t stuck on being stagnant. There also seems to be a general lack of understanding that one can love their country, but not love what’s happening in it. And like the perks of another. Yet- still be loyal to home. 

I would generally say that Arkady, Oleg and Philip want to see a system that works, that is actually beneficial to the people it is supposed to serve. Not be a corrupt, inept mess that literally can’t feed their people. So they’re willing to embrace change that scares hardliners that just want to hold onto what they have. Change tends to scare people. It’s not surprising that, especially older people, might reject anything new. 

IA- Elizabeth straddles the two, and it’s why she can turn in the end. She’s also afraid of being seen as a traitor for that label alone. So change, anything new scares her. It means she’s going the wrong way. 

Gabriel and Claudia do seem to be more Stalinist survivors than Leninist idealists. There’s a lot of focus from both of them on just surviving hard times. More Claudia though. Gabriel at least burns out. Claudia never does. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Arkady says that Russians will sacrifice people for principles, but he wouldn’t. As in- he’d do what it took to make a deal with the Israelis and save Philip. He cared about the man. Arkady was always like that. Cared about people- ie Nina, etc. He also showed he’d fight for his cause- whatever cause that was. He’d risk his career in this case, his life later. He’d put his money where his mouth was so to speak. 

Looking back, I almost forget how early Arkady is in the show--he's in the first Russian scene with the original Rezident. I love how they show him so early having these very qualities they need in the end: he thinks outside the box (his plan in The Colonel is so awesome!) and he has his own understanding of right and wrong and values his people. He doesn't leave a comrade to die. I love how he mentions having met Philip once and clearly that meeting didn't put him off even though it was Philip threatening to quit. I think he completely understood his perspective and if he knew the Jared story probably was glad the Jennings kid had him sticking up for them.

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Oleg originally sees arkady as being a typical unimaginative bureaucrat, but obviously has to revise that when Arkady lets him lead Stan in the wrong direction. Years later- 2 men who always saw things a bit differently, were risk takers, joined forces in a much riskier venture. (Of course,  Oleg’s involvement with the virus fiasco was another reason Arkady trusted him.) 

I'm also always interested in his response to Nina. Oleg seems to feel like Arkady has betrayed him by not having the same response to Nina's execution, but I always saw Arkady's reaction as very emotional. I think he was angry at Nina for disobeying and getting executed because he really did care about her. He wasn't being cold, his grief was just coming out differently--and the fact that he later goes to Oleg reflects that, imo. Arkady not only starts out with a connection to individuals it seems to get even stronger as the show goes on. 

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

This really makes me wish we could have seen the 3 men together in a scene. They had much in common, as Arkady rightly saw. Or at least more of Philip/Oleg. In my mind, Arkady and Philip become friends. They’re enough alike. It would make sense. (I bet Arkady was really glad he’d gone out of his way to save Philip a couple of times, seeing as he needed him later. Lol)

So much this. It's funny, there was a running joke for a while on the AV Club because someone kept referring to Arkady as if he was really old but really he's the same generation as the Jennings. He seems like a father figure because he's the supervisor but they do have a lot in common--we don't know Arkady's background but it seems like he came up more like the Jennings since he's not like Oleg who has an upper class background. 

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Anton questioning if they had trained everything out of him, who he was, was just unbearably sad. I’m sure they trained a lot out of him and Elizabeth, though certainly not as much as Anton states. But in Philip’s case he always had a strong interest in family, helping people, was more of a thinker. Those basic things stayed with him. Elizabeth not so much. She may have always had less to lose in a way - but needed to gain more in the end too. 

Also it seems like Elizabeth got similar "training" at home at least in her own mind. Her flashbacks tend to be about lessons that fit right along with her KGB training. Although in a way Philip's do too--that milk story, even the way he first tells it, might as well be an op. But in a different way. It's not telling him that thoughts are bad.

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

E/P laying on the couch together talking about icicles was always classic. Everything from their body language to the dislogue was lovely. 

I love how Philip is slowly drawn out by Elizabeth. He's got this thing about the icicles but he doesn't just tell her he was thinking about it. He asks if *she* remembered icicles and she has to ask him why he's asking. In response to his memory she links it to a shared memory of their life and he says he remembers that.

I admit when Philip looked out of the car in the finale and saw the snow along the road I wondered if he'd see any icicles. Even without them I think there is meant to be some connection there. Not that there isn't snow in the US obviously (there's that great outdoor scene shot during the snowcopolyps!) but I think there is meant to be something familiar about that snow to him. They chose to focus on that rather than some landmark.

3 hours ago, Plums said:

 Like, we see Claudia and Gabriel talking about Philip when they're arguing over whether they should let him know Mischa has come to meet him and whether they should let it happen. Claudia's main argument is that Philip has entries in his file that already "don't look good", that he's shaky, and potentially hearing from his son that he was thrown into a lunatic asylum for criticizing a war would be disastrous. Gabriel agrees with that assessment. Then you flash forward to Arkady's recruitment of Oleg, and he says he's spent a lot of time with Philip's file, and his understanding of it is completely different. Philip can be brought in on the secret operation because he thinks more like they do. He's trustworthy. He's a true patriot, like they are.

One thing you notice about Arkady when he's Rezident, is that often when something bad has happened, you see him contemplating the bust of Lenin they have there. You also see the painting of Lenin associated with Oleg whenever he's on the verge of some technically treasonous action. They're loyal to the very foundational ideals of the Soviet Union, not the bureaucracy. They are motivated in their work to protect and preserve that. Not the corrupt state Stalin made it. Whereas Claudia and Gabriel's patriotism was formed in the heart of Stalin's USSR, the purges and the war. They're motivated by pure survival, and survival means defeating the opposition, not building something, not any aspirational ideal. Elizabeth's patriotism is motivated by a combination of the two, which is why I think she's able to turn in the end.  

Wow, I'd never thought of that file that way but what a great note! I'd never thought of how specifically Gabriel and Claudia think that Philip meeting his son will make him shakier as if the danger is Philip turning, like he'd act against the USSR in revenge of what was done to his son. Clearly he would be furious about what they did to Mischa but they do have a Stalin-esque mentality. Both Philip and his son must be "protected" from their bad impulses of criticizing the State. Arkady, in a sense, recognizes it as patriotism. 

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

@Plums I almost went back and added that Arkady’s original assessment of Oleg being just a rich playboy who was only there because of his father’s influence turned out to be wrong.....but I was tired of typing. Lol So, I’m glad you said that. 

Plus we then get the added layer of how Oleg's father is not what Arkady might have imagined--and his father is on board with Arkady's plan as well, even though it means he's sacrificing his son. 

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

Fascinating parallels between Gabriel and Claudia’s read of his file vs Arkady’s. I hadn’t thought about that at all. They see him as a threat because he’s already voiced opposition to the status quo (like his son) and proven his ability for independent thought and that means he’ll potentially turn traitor, defect, etc. One more disillusionment, and he’s gone.  He already likes America too much. 

But Arkady sees him as a man who really cares about his country and about what he’s doing for it....and is therefore a patriot- the perfect person to recruit. He cares so much- he talks, thinks things through.  He’ll embrace going outside the box. And he’ll DO. He hasn’t just become American the way everyone is so quick to assume. He and Oleg got disillusioned for similar reasons- they both saw things as messed up. 

It's amazing how for me the show did this without my noticing it overmuch. I honestly never imagined that the last season would have Arkady, Philip and Oleg in a plot together. I wish there was more interaction, but in a way that just made it more sad that they never got to have the connection. 

Maybe my favorite moment of that was the idea of Arkady being the one to welcome them back home and drive them to Moscow. And knowing that they're returning will in part help Oleg. It won't get him out of jail, sadly, but Arkady can tell his father that Oleg, unlike Evgeny, didn't sacrifice for a failed goal. He did it. 

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

Philip is useful for anyone who isn’t stuck on being stagnant. There also seems to be a general lack of understanding that one can love their country, but not love what’s happening in it. And like the perks of another. Yet- still be loyal to home. 

I was thinking again of how interesting it is in the Summit where Philip is wandering around looking for comfort and finally, having not found it elsewhere, actually goes to a video store and secretly rents a Russian movie. It's never even remarked upon or explained. It's just there without comment, playing when Elizabeth comes home and announces that she's on Philip's side about the coup.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I would generally say that Arkady, Oleg and Philip want to see a system that works, that is actually beneficial to the people it is supposed to serve. Not be a corrupt, inept mess that literally can’t feed their people. So they’re willing to embrace change that scares hardliners that just want to hold onto what they have. Change tends to scare people. It’s not surprising that, especially older people, might reject anything new. 

IA- Elizabeth straddles the two, and it’s why she can turn in the end. She’s also afraid of being seen as a traitor for that label alone. So change, anything new scares her. It means she’s going the wrong way. 

Gabriel and Claudia do seem to be more Stalinist survivors than Leninist idealists. There’s a lot of focus from both of them on just surviving hard times. More Claudia though. Gabriel at least burns out. Claudia never does. 

Yeah, Gabriel seems like he wants to change but maybe doesn't have the ability to go as far as Philip and Elizabeth in taking a big risk. It's just too bred into his bones to keep his head down as much as possible. 

It's funny that there's 3 generations very represented on the show and the third one--the kids--are so different than the other two. Maybe just because they're American vs. Russian. But ultimately they're outside of these kinds of decisions, it seems. They have so many choices and the challenge is knowing which to pick. 

[Umbelina]

Removing Arkady, Oleg, and even Gaad from the action in DC, especially after just losing Nina and Martha was perhaps the biggest mistake these writers ever made, they should have kept Tatiana as well, and Oleg screwing up her mission could have been great tension between the lovers, and also placed Arkady in a terrible position.

Season five sucked, and we missed those incredible relationships.

Everyone loves Oleg, but honestly Arkady as a character, and the Residentura and FBI offices as major players were so important to this series.  It lost it's way without them.  The Oleg/Stan connection was well acted, believable, and realistic. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Removing Arkady, Oleg, and even Gaad from the action in DC, especially after just losing Nina and Martha was perhaps the biggest mistake these writers ever made, they should have kept Tatiana as well, and Oleg screwing up her mission could have been great tension between the lovers, and also placed Arkady in a terrible position.

Season five sucked, and we missed those incredible relationships.

Everyone loves Oleg, but honestly Arkady as a character, and the Residentura and FBI offices as major players were so important to this series.  It lost it's way without them.  The Oleg/Stan connection was well acted, believable, and realistic. 

I really really missed them all when they were gone. Especially Arkady. It felt almost as if the Rezidentura itself had disappeared when of course really there'd be a replacement there. They also got rid of Gaad. It's a very odd choice. There's plot reasons for it--Gaad's death is what gets rid of Arkady and they needed Arkady and Oleg in the USSR in the last season--but that could obviously have been done in a different way. Arkady and Oleg didn't need to be in the USSR by season 5, especially with a 3 year time jump. Oleg obviously already saw problems in the USSR and they didn't feel they needed us to see Arkady there to make it believable that he'd be leading the mission to protect Gorbachev. They'd been setting him up to do that since S2 at least, if not earlier.

[Umbelina]

They didn't need them there though.  Oleg could have visited, and his dad could have taken on the role of Arkady giving Oleg a secret mission to stop the Coup later, after having been established with an extended funeral visit, include his mother's time in the Gulag there.

They had other options.

Instead we got wheat and hole digging and coitus interruptus and poor story telling with Misha (how the hell did he even know to go to Virginia?) and Tuan, who could have been a fascinating character, but wasn't, and the idiotic wife that was going to be used to spy on the 2nd in command at the US Embassy in Moscow.  Oh my God, that last one bothered me the most, she has no skills, and that position only goes to the best of the best in the CIA, he would see right through her!

Worst of all, coming on the heels of losing two extremely compelling characters, Martha and Nina?  We lost the only other significant relationship on screen.  Oleg and Stan, by far more fascinating and interesting than any other cast combinations except Elizabeth and Philip.

Then the give Stan basically nothing to play, with Renee, as a cutesy "is she or isn't she" with the appalling "we aren't going to tell you!" and equally appalling putting Stan's future into the HELL zone ending (along with Paige witnessing his treason, and staying in the USA.)

I'm SO completely pissed at all of that.

What a waste.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Umbelina
clarity

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They didn't need them there though.  Oleg could have visited, and his dad could have taken on the role of Arkady giving Oleg a secret mission to stop the Coup later, after having been established with an extended funeral visit, include his mother's time in the Gulag there.

I think they needed them there in S6 if they wanted Oleg coming to the US without diplomatic cover, sent by Arkady, who saw what was happening because he was head of Directorate S. I mean, I'm totally fine with all of that and like keeping it.

But that didn't mean they had to be there throughout Season 5. They could have had them go back at the end of S5 in some way and then they'd just be there after the time jump. That's basically already what they did with Arkady, since he wasn't seen in S5, and we didn't need to see Oleg investigating corruption in the USSR for him to be onboard with the plot in S5 imo. They could have been in the US and interacting with people throughout the show and then only in the USSR for the last season when Oleg would be back interacting with Stan and Philip in the US for Arkady's plan and Arkady would be interacting with his father. (Whose character and relationship with Oleg could have been established while Oleg was home for his brother's funeral etc.)

[Umbelina]

Yes, they certainly didn't need him off screen for an entire season and barely on screen in season 6, ditto Arkady, who didn't need to be gone AT ALL.  Or hell, skip killing Gaad, or delay it, and expel them both later, or promote Arkady near the end of season 5.  SO many options.

Dumping half the cast was idiotic.  Yes, Martha and Nina probably had to go, although I can see many ways they could have also stayed around and still be fascinating.

Nina in the prison in the USSR, and the Jewish guy was an interesting story, but it DRAGGED, and could have been shortened but still had the intended impact.  I didn't buy her choosing to die, for basically no reason, as some kind of soul retrieval either.  She was about to be released!  Take care of your soul by caring for orphans or something more useful, like successfully getting word to Anton's son AFTER you are released in a few weeks.  Aside from that, WTF?  Israel wouldn't tell his kid his dad was alive?  IN WHAT UNIVERSE?

It's frustrating how much potential this show had, and how very badly it blew the penultimate and final season.

It was all there, and they practically threw it away with both hands.  I will never understand it.

[Erin9]

@sistermagpie

I loved that P/E came home in winter. They left in winter and returned in winter. Very fitting. I think Philip did see something familiar about home snow. 

When I saw Arkady waiting for them- out in the middle of nowhere no less- I had an instant feeling of: all is well regarding the coup. Mission accomplished. And it is as close as we can get to pulling Oleg, Philip and Arkady together. But I totally see him and Philip being friends. They’re alike, of the same generation even though he seems older, and, as you say, clearly did not have a privileged background either. Philip would like to have a friend  that doesn’t have a lie attached to it. Arkady would be a good start. And he’s a man who can certainly have an understanding of him. 

I always thought Arkady knew exactly what happened with Jared. Either way, I think he admired Philip’s protective instincts. And again- this allows him a chance to see Philip as something other than a yes man. He’ll take a big risk to make a point. I loved that scene. I never dreamed we’d see Arkady and Philip interact again. 

I wonder if anyone could have predicted those 3 would be in a plot together, but it was brilliant and believable. They set that in motion very early in the show. Whether they originally intended for it to go down just that way or not- the groundwork was clearly there. It wasn’t tossed in at all. 

Yes- Oleg missed Arkady’s grief for Nina because it was mixed with (understandable)anger at her for blowing her chance. Oleg was only mad she was killed. 

Nina sure did inspire a lot of devotion in men. This is particularly interesting because most of those were Russian men- and the whole mess started when she caved to blackmail and spied on her own country. She turned back for several reasons, but still. Especially Vasili. She nearly got him killed, and after all that, he still looked gutted when he realized she’d thrown away her last chance. 

I guess we could see Elizabeth getting things trained out of her as pre-dating KGB- it goes back to her mother. Philip didn’t seem to have that. 

[Erin9]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think they needed them there in S6 if they wanted Oleg coming to the US without diplomatic cover, sent by Arkady, who saw what was happening because he was head of Directorate S. I mean, I'm totally fine with all of that and like keeping it.

But that didn't mean they had to be there throughout Season 5. They could have had them go back at the end of S5 in some way and then they'd just be there after the time jump. That's basically already what they did with Arkady, since he wasn't seen in S5, and we didn't need to see Oleg investigating corruption in the USSR for him to be onboard with the plot in S5 imo. They could have been in the US and interacting with people throughout the show and then only in the USSR for the last season when Oleg would be back interacting with Stan and Philip in the US for Arkady's plan and Arkady would be interacting with his father. (Whose character and relationship with Oleg could have been established while Oleg was home for his brother's funeral etc.)

IA- I’m totally on board with both being in Moscow at the start of S6. That worked PERFECTLY. 

But they didn’t both have to leave at the end of S4. It could have been late to end S5 and we’d have wound up in the same place. I missed the Rezidentura too.

I did always think Tatiana was the weak link of the crew. I liked her better the second time around, but she was far from a fave of mine. And she was set up in advance to end up being part of the coup too. They may have wanted Elizabeth to kill someone known to us, but it still FIT HER imo. I bought she’d be involved. 

[Umbelina]

I loved Tatiana.  She was obviously a very intelligent woman who rose from poverty and was able, through her talent, not her family connections, to rise so far in the KGB that she was nearly their first woman Resident in charge of a station.  She was tough, and had to be, but later we saw her also with a sense of humor "Beee eeep!" and still later both sexually repressed, and then sexually free and laughing, probably for the first time in her life.

Sorry to burst your bubble on Arkady, Philip, and Elizabeth, but all three are in a ton of danger now.  They can all identify some of the Coup members, and they were all involved in foiling the Coup.  The Coup people, as the show established, are VERY heavy hitters, one is a General, one is in charge of Directorate S, one is Claudia, others are highly placed in the Government and other areas of the KGB.  They will be very lucky to live out the year.

Covering your ass is SOP in the USSR, you die if you don't.  You honestly think those people will risk letting any of them live?  I don't.  Not in any universe, and certainly not in the USSR during it's death throes.  Some will want them dead for revenge, but most of the others will want them dead for that, and to save their own lives.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Umbelina

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I didn't buy her choosing to die, for basically no reason, as some kind of soul retrieval either.  She was about to be released!  Take care of your soul by caring for orphans or something more useful, like successfully getting word to Anton's son AFTER you are released in a few weeks.

I loved Nina's ending precisely because what she did was so purposeless, even counterproductive. This is a character who has been obsessed with her own survival for years, to the point of sacrificing other people, her country, and her integrity. Yes,  it would have been a smarter decision to manage to walk out of the prison and commit herself to living a better life after that -- but I think at this point Nina feels so compromised, and so done with taking the self-preserving option that her spiritual survival depends on her deciding, at long last, that she's not going to be that person any more. The fact that she draws her line in the sand over an issue with such limited stakes dramatizes that she isn't making an ideological choice, or being swept away by grand passion; this isn't Elizabeth finally reaching her breaking point in S6 and deciding she isn't going to help the coup. This is Nina being willing to die simply because she prefers that to being the type of person who is so afraid of the consequences that she can't perform an act of compassion or exercise any moral agency. 

[Umbelina]

She didn't perform an act of compassion though.  Aside from the fact that Israel would have already told Anton's son about his father, she didn't get word out to him.  She simply jeopardized her husband as well.

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

IA- I’m totally on board with both being in Moscow at the start of S6. That worked PERFECTLY. 

But they didn’t both have to leave at the end of S4. It could have been late to end S5 and we’d have wound up in the same place.

Except that I think it played an important part in putting a capstone on some of the major points of season 4, by drawing a stark distinction between the illegals and their official-cover counterparts. In a season that portrayed the corrosive secrets of the espionage game as a deadly virus, Arkady and Oleg represented, respectively, the insidious pathogen that the American government was able to isolate and expel from the body of the nation, and the still-healthy Soviet who recognized the risk of his own infection and removed himself from the hot zone.

The illegals, meanwhile, don't have the same easy mobility; the only way William can escape capture is to infect himself, and die. And Philip and Elizabeth, meanwhile, are figuratively infected, so entangled with their American life and the FBI agent across the street that they basically just sit around and do nothing even though Gabriel is like, "Uh, you guys should really bug the fuck out before William leads the FBI right to you." And the episode ends with Philip dragging Paige away from Stan's place as the Jennings home looms like a terrifying haunted mansion -- the contagion is inside the house, so unlike Arkady and Oleg, they can't get out.

Which leads us into season 5, in which P&E ultimately realize that it's not about curing or escaping the plague but finding the strength to endure it -- hence the shift from stealing viruses to hijacking pestilence-proof wheat. And Oleg realizes that he hasn't escaped the plague after all, because it's not just about his country lacking the resources to handle the bioweapons and other temptations of the Western world, but the Soviet system itself being blighted and corrupt.

It's all very carefully constructed. So while I certainly agree that more Rezidentura action would've been nice to spice up the veeeery leisurely penultimate season, it would've required more substantial changes than just moving some of the character departures around.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Dev F

[companionenvy]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She didn't perform an act of compassion though.  Aside from the fact that Israel would have already told Anton's son about his father, she didn't get word out to him.  She simply jeopardized her husband as well.

She tried to, though, which is the point. There's never any guarantee that the things we try are going to actually succeed; her intent was to get the letter out to Anton's son.  And I'm not sure that we -- or, more to the point Nina -- could take it for granted that the Mossad was going to get word to Anton's son. Intelligence agencies aren't known for prioritizing compassion to the individual over the interests of the organization. and I think the fact that they wound up selling out Anton for the sake of getting many more Soviet Jews out is in itself incentive for keeping quiet about the whole sordid situation. Even if they would have, that wouldn't be something disaffected KGB agent and sometime FBI double agent Nina would necessarily rely on. 

[Umbelina]

Sorry, but I'm a fan of logical characters.

[sistermagpie]

33 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

She tried to, though, which is the point. There's never any guarantee that the things we try are going to actually succeed; her intent was to get the letter out to Anton's son.

There's a word I learned from this show--I read the definition so I can't say for sure how accurate it is. But it's a word that means an act of courage. What's interesting about it is that in the definition it specifically said that it didn't matter whether it was successful or not. So the idea seemed to be that it was a heroic act--so not just a reckless one or whatever--even if it was a failure.

It's how Mischa describes what Philip is doing. The subtitles say "He lives abroad. He's some kind of hero." (Which sounds kind of dismissive/sarcastic.) But he actually says that he lives abroad and commits these acts (podvigs) there.

Just thought of that in reading this about Nina because it does seem like whatever she's doing there, it's a completely idiosyncratic act that means something to her in that moment but isn't strategically logical.  That's probably partly why Arkady is so upset that it seems so perverse.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I guess we could see Elizabeth getting things trained out of her as pre-dating KGB- it goes back to her mother. Philip didn’t seem to have that. 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Just that we see her mother telling her not to rely on others, and then telling her that her father was a traitor. Plus her mother immediately told her to go serve her country. So I get the impression that Elizabeth learned at an early age that not being a traitor was very important. It's like with Paige later, really. Elizabeth would never say that Paige had to work for the Cause to be loved, but her actions do give Paige that impression. Paige does have some of the same doubts about that as Elizabeth had about her mother, but without the whole scaffolding of other beliefs to make her deny it.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I loved that P/E came home in winter. They left in winter and returned in winter. Very fitting. I think Philip did see something familiar about home snow. 

In a way the fact that Philip seems to have repressed his memories of home so much might make it easier for him to adapt. It's like for the first time he's starting as himself and getting to find a way for himself without a set role to just fit himself into.

Ballroom dancing was very popular behind the Iron Curtain. Just sayin'.

Edited June 20, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Erin9]

@Dev F

IA that there was some use in Oleg seeing just exactly how messed up things were back home. But I think they didn’t need to have him spend the entire season there to drive the point literally home. 

And Arkady definitely didn’t need to head home before the end of S 5. We never saw him anyway. (A shame. He was missed.) 

[Umbelina]

During Claudia and Elizabeth's last meeting Claudia obviously wanted to hurt Elizabeth.  I just thought of how she could have done that, and it would have also been a great callback.

She should have said something such as:  "Just like your father.  A traitor."

Yes, I realize "traitor" is problematic, but I'm referring to the cause, not just one man, she could have clarified I suppose.

[companionenvy]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Sorry, but I'm a fan of logical characters.

People aren't always logical, so IMO, well-written characters aren't always logical either. The question is whether or not their actions are believable given their character and experiences. I don't think Stan's were in the finale; I do think Nina's were in her final episode. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

People aren't always logical, so IMO, well-written characters aren't always logical either. The question is whether or not their actions are believable given their character and experiences. I don't think Stan's were in the finale; I do think Nina's were in her final episode. 

I don't think committing suicide is logical.

ESPECIALLY if you are trying to help a desperate friend, and double that when you may get your ex husband killed or imprisoned. 

[hellmouse]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Just thought of that in reading this about Nina because it does seem like whatever she's doing there, it's a completely idiosyncratic act that means something to her in that moment but isn't strategically logical.  That's probably partly why Arkady is so upset that it seems so perverse.

Paige's actions at the end are similar. She's less mature and self aware than Nina, but she too is making a choice that is entirely her own. 

I've thought that there could be an element of self-punishment or penance in what she is doing, although later I decided that was me applying my own Catholic childhood to her, and so might not be correct. But there is something both freeing and self-destructive in Nina's decision and in Paige's choice too. I think Nina regretted it in the moment her sentence was read out. I think Paige will have regrets too, but both of them made a choice to take a very different path than the one laid out in front of them by the authorities in their lives, one that required them to be something they, for whatever reason, could no longer be. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by hellmouse
added stuff

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

I've thought that there could be an element of self-punishment or penance in what she is doing, although later I decided that was me applying my own Catholic childhood to her, and so might not be correct. But there is something both freeing and self-destructive in Nina's decision and in Paige's choice too. I think Nina regretted it in the moment her sentence was read out. I think Paige will have regrets too, but both of them made a choice to take a very different path than the one laid out in front of them by the authorities in their lives, one that required them to be something they, for whatever reason, could no longer be. 

And in Paige's case, let's face it, the alternative was just as unreal to her, probably. 

But yeah, I totally agree. That one moment is probably incredibly freeing or at least makes them feel something really strongly. Paige's full choice probably won't even become clear to her for a while. They'll be a lot of moments where she realizes how much things have changed.

[companionenvy]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think committing suicide is logical.

ESPECIALLY if you are trying to help a desperate friend, and double that when you may get your ex husband killed or imprisoned. 

The post that you are replying to you says "people's decisions are NOT always logical, and therefore neither are all of the decisions of well-written characters" so I'm honestly not understanding the basis for your disagreement. I just said that Nina was not being logical. 

Unfortunately, as we've seen in recent weeks, people commit suicide in more direct ways, too, including those who seem to have everything going for them. A show that involved a gifted and wealthy celebrity parent to a teenage child committing suicide would be representing a sadly real, self-destructive aspect of fundamentally illogical human behavior.