S01.E09: Baelor (Re-watch spoilers)

[Anothermi]

WARNING!!! This thread was created for an Unsullied RE-WATCH after the end of Season 6 and will contain SPOILERS.

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Thank you for your cooperation.

Episode Synopsis: (re-watch version)

Robb crossed a Troll bridge. Jon gets a gift from his new Dad. Tyrion wears a new suit, but not to the party. Varys does NOT give Ned "Milk of the Puppy" (nope). Arya learns that if she wanted to SEE the show, she should have been at the front. Ned....

 

This re-watch is planned for Sunday, Aug. 14, 2016.

[Llywela]

Oh, godsdammit, this episode. I'm gone from the moment Ned claps eyes on Arya as he is led to his death, that's the moment I start bawling - knowing what's to come doesn't help. From that moment until the sword falls, with Sansa screaming in the background, I'm just gone.

Episode nine, the penultimate episode of the season - it's become a tradition, in the show, that episode nine is the one with all the big battles and shocks, and that tradition begins right here with Ned's execution, just when, after everything, we might almost be allowing ourselves to hope. The episode itself has set us up to hope, with Ned's great compromise for the sake of his daughter, which partners his earlier conversation with Varys to bookend the episode. And it was foreshadowed also in Aemon's conversation with Jon in which he asked outright what Ned would do if forced to choose between love and honour. "He would do the right thing," says Jon, still so young and earnest and naive, so dogged in his Neddish belief that there is always a 'right thing' to do - and that doing that 'right thing' must always be the right thing to do. And we as first time viewers might also have believed that doing the right thing must eventually be rewarded - it's a narrative trope for a reason, after all. Our heroes do the right thing and are rewarded for it, in that no matter how bad things get, they always survive, they always win in the end...right? Wrong. Not in this story. In this story, the hero sacrifices his honour for the sake of love, in a desperate attempt to protect his daughter, and it costs him his life, because his life was always, always going to be forfeit, no matter what he did. Sometimes, it turns out, there is no 'right thing' to do, because the only choices you have are bad ones, and it doesn't even matter what you choose, because the outcome is dependent on someone else, not on your choice, and that someone else might not care in the slightest about doing the right thing, because they have entirely different values.

Like Joffrey, for instance. Ned's fate was sealed the moment Robert died, if only he'd known it, because Joffrey is who he is - and this episode was the moment his true nature was fully revealed for the first time. We'd had hints, up till now, of what could be, but this is where the true monstrosity of the character was fully unveiled for all to see, because this is where he comes into his power. Cersei believed she could control him - Varys and Littlefinger also believed she could control him. He's just a boy, after all...but Joffrey doesn't see it that way. He is king, and he can't be controlled by anyone. He doesn't play at politics, he doesn't care about doing any kind of 'right thing' by anyone's standards, he is simply cruel because he can be, because he enjoys it. And, seven hells, is he dangerous.

One of the lessons this episode teaches us is that dismissing anyone as 'just a boy' is dangerous. The entire Small Council thought of Joffrey as just a boy - until he showed his teeth and they realised how wrong they were. And meanwhile up north, Tywin Lannister dismissed Robb Stark as just a boy - and Jaime learned to his cost just how wrong that judgement was. Robb is coming into his own as a character, now that he's been tested, the arrogant young lordling tempered by the fire of harsh experience and painful choices. Robb has had to step up into his father's shoes long before he was ready, but he's done it unflinchingly, making hard choices and bearing the responsibility for them. So far, at least - that fateful deal with the Freys will of course come back to bite him, once he has learned what love is, but for now he is prepared to make (and honour) that bargain, because it has to be done. His tactical instincts have won him a great victory (albeit at a heavy cost). The boy is becoming a man right before our eyes. Damn, I'd forgotten how much I liked Robb at this stage of the show, having found him distinctly unpromising earlier in the season.

Another boy who really shouldn't be dismissed as such is Jon, but he's got a way to go yet before he learns his lessons and fulfills his potential. While Robb is on a steep learning curve, already a leader of man - as he was trained to be - Jon is forced to learn very different lessons, much more slowly, and doesn't like it one little bit. While Robb takes action, Jon's lessons are all about patience and commitment and duty - about honouring the choices he has made, even when his heart is pulling him in a different direction. He's got a long way still to go, as his conversation with Maester Aemon demonstrated - still so pig-headed and self-righteous, so sure he's the only person who could ever have suffered in this way. It's a lesson he's failed to learn all season, and watching Aemon giving him another dose of schooling here I had to remind myself of who Jon will eventually become to reassure myself that it will be worth it in the end! The boy doesn't learn fast, but he does eventually learn. And in the meantime, Aemon's heartbreaking story made this round of it all worthwhile.

Meanwhile over in Dothraki country, Dany is learning much the same lesson as Ned - that the 'right thing' isn't always the right thing to do. She had such good intentions, trying to turn the Dothraki aside from their more barbaric ways, trying to save other women from slavery...but who is Dany to stand in judgement of the customs of an entire race? Trying to do the right thing by the women she saw being captured and enslaved has turned out to be the wrong thing to do for herself, for her husband, for her child, and for everyone loyal to them - yet how could she ever have known that this would be the outcome of that generous impulse? The trouble is, the ways of an entire people cannot be changed overnight, especially if it is not what they want, and that change cannot be imposed on them on a mere whim, especially not from a position of relative weakness. Like Jon, Dany has been slow to learn her lessons, over the seasons of the show so far. Here, she doesn't have the authority to back up her principles - her power is entirely dependent on Drogo...and Drogo is already lost. There is such cruel irony in Drogo's fate, that proud warrior killed, in the end, by his devotion to his beloved wife - it was his support of her whim, something he didn't personally believe in, that caused his injury, which costs his life. Would his wound have festered without the intervention of the witch, who Dany called to tend the wound when it happened? The show heavily implies that the witch caused it, choosing revenge against the barbarian invaders over gratitude to the woman who tried to help.

How much can hinge on a small, seemingly minor decision? It's something we see over and over again in this show - how every decision made always has consequences, sometimes minor and sometimes major. If Dany had never encountered the witch, perhaps Drogo might have lived - but Dany's dragons would not have been born, and she would never have wielded the power she holds in later seasons. And what if Robb had never met Talisa? Might he have honoured his promise to marry a daughter of Walder Frey? Perhaps ended up with the pretty daughter who was later wed to Edmure? How might the war have played out in that instance? Every decision made has an impact, for better or for worse. And so we see Robb here agreeing to the deal Cat struck with Walder Frey, agreeing to marry one of the old man's daughters, sight unseen, both eyes firmly fixed on the immediate goal and never dreaming that his honour and the promise made here might some day come into conflict with his heart. What does a man do when forced to choose between love and honour, Maester Aemon asked Jon - it's a question we've seen numerous characters wrestling with over the years, with a variety of different outcomes.

Also in this episode: Alliser Thorne sets out for King's Landing with the zombie hand, a journey that will see him disappear for several seasons and whose outcome will apparently never be resolved; Lord Commander Mormont gives the Valyrian steel sword Long Claw to Jon (and apparently every brother of the Night's Watch knew all about the gift before Jon did); we meet Walder Frey for the first time and find him to be truly awful and proud of it; Tyrion meets Shae for the first time and tells her the sad story of his short-lived marriage at age 16; and after living rough on the streets for however long, Arya falls into the protection of Yoren of the Night's Watch.

[Anothermi]

Well spoke, Llywela. This paragraph on Robb and the parallel lessons of dismissing these progeny as "just a boy" was spot on.

On 2016-08-20 at 10:03 AM, Llywela said:

One of the lessons this episode teaches us is that dismissing anyone as 'just a boy' is dangerous. The entire Small Council thought of Joffrey as just a boy - until he showed his teeth and they realised how wrong they were. And meanwhile up north, Tywin Lannister dismissed Robb Stark as just a boy - and Jaime learned to his cost just how wrong that judgement was. Robb is coming into his own as a character, now that he's been tested, the arrogant young lordling tempered by the fire of harsh experience and painful choices. Robb has had to step up into his father's shoes long before he was ready, but he's done it unflinchingly, making hard choices and bearing the responsibility for them. So far, at least - that fateful deal with the Freys will of course come back to bite him, once he has learned what love is, but for now he is prepared to make (and honour) that bargain, because it has to be done. His tactical instincts have won him a great victory (albeit at a heavy cost). The boy is becoming a man right before our eyes. Damn, I'd forgotten how much I liked Robb at this stage of the show, having found him distinctly unpromising earlier in the season.

I've just finished watching Baelor and need time to digest. Will post tomorrow.

[Anothermi]

I guess I'll start with the end and then move on to the beginning. Like most of us perhaps, I associate Baelor with Ned's death, but it's only 6 minutes (or less) of the entire episode. However, it is also so well done! It starts with confirming that Arya is alive and safe (if hungry) and then, after firmly placing her in our thoughts, builds and builds to the climax - leaving our imaginations to do their worst. We get a positive scrap here and there. Ned espying Arya at the literal foot of the statue of Baelor and being able to ask a trusted face to take care of her (if only in code). Getting a smiling nod from Sansa - which must have steeled his resolve to do what he felt was in her best interest. Even Joffrey started off on-script, and we could see that it was a script - the one that Varys had left Ned to mull over - because Sansa and Cersei smile and nod when he mentions their part. And then all hell breaks loose as Joffrey makes his 1st decision as King. I did appreciate how well they portrayed the chaos this created in the small council. Peycelle looking boggled. Varys flapping about trying to create order out of the chaos, but completely without tools to achieve this. LF smugly smiling throughout.

We see Arya coming to grips with what was about to happen and foolishly charging into the breach, only to be halted by her soon-to-be (and 1st-of-many) mentor, Yoren. The noise and the chaos builds, we hear over top of it the executioner's sword being drawn (it's as big as Ned's sword) and Sansa's voice screaming "Stop...Stop" and then silence - except for Ned's breathing. We're given a half a minute or less to see Ned coming to terms with his imminent death and then the squishy sound of the sword striking during a shot of Arya in the grip of Yoren and then only her breathing can be heard as well as the sound of birds flying over head. All the while our own mind searches for the Deus Ex Machina we've learned to expect from movies.  Life rarely provides those... nor does GRRM.

GAH!

On a lighter note, I caught something in the opening credits that provides definite geographical info that we've been unclear on for a long while. As usual, it WAS provided, but we're only human. We can't take in everything - especially when we have no reason to - at the moment.

This episode adds The Twins to the credits. To the right of The Twins, and slightly to the east of what clearly is the Kings Road, is a long bay (The Bite) located north of the "fingers". Not far north along the Kings Road we can see Winterfell. This bay has to be the one where Roz, Arya and Sam&co caught ships south. The elusive speedy route to Kings Landing & beyond. I think I mentioned this before, but this is the clearest view we've gotten of it.

To the west of the Twins is a bay labelled "Iron Man's Bay", so that's got to be Theon's home turf, er, body of water. I've posted before about it's proximity to the Westerlands/Lannisport. Assuming Robb's camp is just south of the Twins, Theon is quite close to his home and will not have a long trip to make when it is asked of him. (next episode)

Hope that helps any of you who are keeping a mental map of Westeros. I'll continue anon.

[Anothermi]

More thoughts:

-Varys risks his life and limb once again to visit Ned to see if he will co-operate in a plan to save the realm. At this point Jon Snow's answer to Maester Aemon is proving true. Ned is not afraid of death as the price of honour. But Varys' previous visit has given him the recipe he needs. "What of your daughter's life, my Lord? Is that a precious thing to you?" Thrown out as he is leaving, as if he doesn't expect a response. Then he leaves Ned to marinate.

-At the Twins, Theon proves his archery skills (and the inherent lack of security of the ravengram system). The bird he brought down contained a birthday message to Frey's grand niece, Walda. I hadn't paid attention to the name before but could this be the same Walda who was married off to Roose Bolton? Or was Walda just named after him? Perhaps it was a coded message on it's way to Roose? If she really was his niece AND he did strike a deal to marry her off to Roose, would that mean he didn't trust Bolton with his own progeny (despite his claims of being unable to be rid of them). Inquiring mind want to know!

But in the foretelling vein, Robb stated he would go see Walder alone and Umber warns him that Frey would sell him out to Tywin immediately if he had him alone in his Keep. Theon adds "Or throw you in a dungeon... or slit your throat." We can't say we (nor he) weren't warned! Too bad Umber and Theon were no longer there, two seasons on, when Robb accepted the fateful wedding invitation. (I think Umber was no longer there because Roose became Robb's advisor at one point and Umber had always been by his side up 'til then.) I also noted that Frey offered Cat a short form version of Jaime's next season rumination on "oaths" and their inherent slippery nature. 

-When Mormont presented Jon with Long Claw (albeit with a minor change of spirit animal) he indicated it had been in his family for 500 years. That means before the Targaryen's takeover. I'm thinking that must be true of the other Houses where we've heard of Valyrian steel swords being passed down from father to son. Ned's and recently the Tarly's are the ones that come to mind. I wonder why we haven't heard of any Valyrian steel weapons belonging to Lannisters (excepting Tyrion's alleged Knife)? The first and only mention of Valyrian steel swords belonging to Lannisters was when Tywin melted down Ned's to make Jaime's (which he promptly gave away) and Joffrey/Tommen's. I wonder if there was some event 500 years ago that gave some Houses access to Valyrian steel? This becomes (for me) another "inquiring minds" issue.

Then we get good old I-can't-keep-a-secret-from-my-Bro, Sam, spilling the beans about Robb going to war and setting up another trial for Jon (the 1st being assigned the position of steward, which I know Sam didn't set up but it was a trial). There is a Greek myth about this sort of thing isn't there? Yes. The Trials (Labours) of Hercules I think. And by the end of Hurcules' trials he became Greece's greatest hero! Not sure that is to be Jon's future, but he seems to be doing penance for something - perhaps his father's deeds? - not likely his own at this point unless being emo is a cardinal sin! Gasp!

-Cat's return from her visit with Frey is a brief foray into humor, dark humor. There was mention of a Frey son becoming Robb's squire. Did we every get to see him? (if not hear him speak)

-In the Aemon/Jon scene, Aemon presents Ned's current moral challenge, albeit as a theoretical one, to Jon. Honor or Love? Jon says "what is right.". My take is that is a bit weasel-wordy. Perhaps Jon has actually learned something from Ned about the difference between someone's teachings and their actions? The right thing could imply "under the circumstances". If there was that nuance (and there was no reason at that point, on 1st viewing, to believe there was), Aemon ignored it but spoke directly to the issue Jon was struggling with. A recurring theme, stated by Aemon this time, (and Ned to Jaime earlier) "We all do our duty when there is no cost to it." Then the big reveal that Aemon could have been King but refused it. Also that he was old and frail when he got the news of the slaughter of "even the children" of his family. His parting words were equally obtuse. "You must make your choice yourself and then live with it... as I have." I love that there are so many ways to interpret that. He truly wasn't advising Jon on anything except that once you've made your choice, you live with it (and it will always be painful, implied). I think that was what we saw Ned do at the end of the episode when all sound faded except his breath. Accepting that his choice was not why he was about to die. That he'd done what he could and it was not enough. And that he followed in his father's and his brother's footsteps in that regard. 

-As I mentioned in the Small Talk thread, the scene with ANOTHER horse death was so much more powerfully poignant this time. Perhaps because I too (along with Pallas) had forgotten it and so wasn't prepared the way I was for Ned.

We get what I think is the first mention of the recurring theme "Only death can pay for life" from the Lamb woman whose god is NOT the Red God, so the concept is fairly wide spread. I think the Iron Island's "What is dead may never die" is a variation on the same theme. I find your thoughts on this section quite perceptive, Llywela.

On 2016-08-20 at 10:03 AM, Llywela said:

How much can hinge on a small, seemingly minor decision? It's something we see over and over again in this show - how every decision made always has consequences, sometimes minor and sometimes major. If Dany had never encountered the witch, perhaps Drogo might have lived - but Dany's dragons would not have been born, and she would never have wielded the power she holds in later seasons.

On a side note, we got another mention of Ashai by Jorah. Perhaps he's actually been there? They were supposedly quite near it (and it had a port!) But I always associate it with "ghost grass" and being farrrrr away.

-I still enjoyed the Tyrion/Shae/Bronn games scene. I noted this time that Bronn has actually been North of the Wall... for work. I wonder what it might have been? Who hired him? I can't see it not involving killing. I also remember Shae's responses and still don't know if she was answering truthfully. If she was, she was highborn and her parents treated her well. We never got a clear answer to that conundrum before she died. In fact, the issue just got murkier and murkier. I do remember that I liked Shae based on that scene because 1) she wouldn't play the truth/drink game, 2) she clarified that a raped woman doesn't invite another man to her bed a few hours later, and 3) her response to Tyrion's request for her to weep for him if he was killed: "You'll be dead. How will you know?"

-Cat's wait for Robb to return I found to be less intense this time, but still effective. I noted the echo of Littlefinger's sexposition monologue in Robb's response to Jaime's proposition of a duel, mano-a-mano. "If we do it your way, you'd win. We're not going to do it your way." He seems to have learned faster than LF.

I liked that they showed Robb feeling the consequences of the (very successful) military tactic he chose to employ. I think in this scene he is shown becoming a man. The music behind his speech to his men was a slow, quiet version of the Game of Thrones theme song. It sounded ominous.

Reviewing Llywela's post, I see we experienced the same feelings during Ned's death scene...

On 2016-08-20 at 10:03 AM, Llywela said:

Episode nine, the penultimate episode of the season - it's become a tradition, in the show, that episode nine is the one with all the big battles and shocks, and that tradition begins right here with Ned's execution, just when, after everything, we might almost be allowing ourselves to hope. The episode itself has set us up to hope, with Ned's great compromise for the sake of his daughter, which partners his earlier conversation with Varys to bookend the episode. And it was foreshadowed also in Aemon's conversation with Jon in which he asked outright what Ned would do if forced to choose between love and honour

and noted the Varys connection from the planning at beginning of the episode to the derailing at the end. Also that the Aemon/Jon scene foreshadowed Ned's choice. That indicates how well the episode was constructed. (IMHO)

Edited September 8, 2016 by Anothermi

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

-At the Twins, Theon proves his archery skills (and the inherent lack of security of the ravengram system). The bird he brought down contained a birthday message to Frey's grand niece, Walda. I hadn't paid attention to the name before but could this be the same Walda who was married off to Roose Bolton? Or was Walda just named after him? Perhaps it was a coded message on it's way to Roose? If she really was his niece AND he did strike a deal to marry her off to Roose, would that mean he didn't trust Bolton with his own progeny (despite his claims of being unable to be rid of them). Inquiring mind want to know.

Lots more excellent thinky thoughts, Anothermi! As far as the Freys go, I get the impression that Walder names as many of his children, grandchildren etc after himself as he possibly can. So there is probably more than one Walda! A daughter Walda, a granddaughter Walda, a niece Walda, a grand niece Walda, etc - and also lots of Walders, too. I know the son we saw a bit last season was Black Walder, but I'd be willing to pledge cash money that there are a stack more with variants on the same name!

[Anothermi]

10 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I know the son we saw a bit last season was Black Walder, but I'd be willing to pledge cash money that there are a stack more with variants on the same name!

Black Walder - when written I saw it as Black Adder!

Walder Beast. Waldamir.

Walden, Waldi(e), Waldo , Waldu and Waldyr or Waldy. Just to start with the vowels.

;-D

Edited September 8, 2016 by Anothermi
added stuff

[Anothermi]

Quote

I thought I was going to be so behind when I came back from holiday, but it turns out...not so much - instead I've been feeling lonely!     -

I'm experiencing the loneliness you and Pallas must have felt in August, Llywela. I'm almost talking to myself. But, hey, here I go again...

I've often pondered on why Ned (and most of the rest of the Stark family) despise the Lannisters so much. I've thought it must have been a long standing thing. The Aemon/Jon scene made me think of what we now know about the Lannisters. The fact that Jaime dishonoured his vow to the Kingsguard and stabbed his King in the back (not even in a fight!), added to (what we learn next episode) knowing that it was Tywin who ordered the Mountain to slaughter Rhaegar and Elia's children at the end of Robert's Rebellion, would be enough for me to have a hate-on towards the family name. However, that's a little too recent for the depth of animosity I think is there.

I now wonder if the feeling didn't originate back when the Targaryen's conquered Westeros? I wouldn't put it past the Starks (and all Houses from the North perhaps) to disdain any House that chose to work with - abet if you will - the Targs after they, themselves, were conquered. Perhaps the Lannister's have a long standing "collaborator" status with the Targaryens (not just Tywin being the Mad King's Hand for decades)? The Starks & the rest of the North chose to obey the letter of the new ruler's laws (in order to cut their losses) but "never forgot" who/what they once were. They do have this motto "The North Remembers" after all. That would be a longstanding animosity of 300 years!

Of course, this is just another one of those never-to-be-known speculations that I'm becoming an expert practitioner of. (red face)

Edited September 12, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

I promise to watch epi 8&9 this weekend, I swear it, to the old gods and the new...

Edited September 16, 2016 by gingerella

[Llywela]

On 12/09/2016 at 7:42 PM, Anothermi said:

I'm experiencing the loneliness you and Pallas must have felt in August, Llywela. I'm almost talking to myself. But, hey, here I go again...

Sorry! I've fallen off the radar a bit these last couple of weeks - hope to get back in the saddle now, though, although I'm reluctant to move on to the next episode until we're all caught up. Or should we press on regardless?

I've enjoyed reading your thoughts, though! :)

[Anothermi]

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

I promise to watch epi 8&9 this weekend, I swear it, to the old gods and the new...

Good to see you back, Gingerella.  I look forward to your thoughts. Now, if we could just get Pallas to cough up a few more parallels/mirrors on this episode?

[gingerella]

I just finished E8, and will do this E9 before the end of the week, so that we can hopefully all get back in sync with E10 this Sunday, how does that sound?  since S7 is quite delayed, the gods are with us!

ETA: When we finish an entire season during this Rewatch, should we take one week off to reflect in the Completely Unspoiled Spec thread? Just for an overall summary of where we stand? Or no? Just throwing it out there, but not married to the thought, though it might spark interesting discussion on where we thought we were at the end of each season compared to what we now know through the Rewatch.

Edited September 22, 2016 by gingerella

[gingerella]

Initial thoughts...

Varys says his balls were cut off, so it's just the balls...I always thought maybe it was his penis too, which would be a bit difficult to live with, human physiology being what it is...minor mystery solved.

Ned, "You think my life is some such a precious thing to me...as I would trade my honor for a few more years..of what?!?"  And therein lies Ned Starks entire raison d'être, honor above all else, and surely above self. Nothing is worth sacrificing your honor for, not God, King, Country, nor even Family or Love. In S1 I didn't know what I was seeing with Ned, and I loved Sean Bean's portrayal of Ned Stark and at this point in A Show, A Viewer had no idea that such a prominent character could be killed off Just.Like.That. No, at this point on first watch, I was not afraid of what was to come, because I was sure as sure could be, that Ned Stark would confess and would get out of this mess. Some way, some how.  How wrong A Viewer was...It is painful to watch this go round, knowing the axe is literally about to fall.

I totally forgot that Arya was betrothed to Walder Frey son when they come of age, but since she offed him and his sons in S6, and in a most delicious way, pun intended, I assume that marriage is now off! 

I big puffy heart Maester Aemon. And Lord Commander Mormont.  I also loved seeing agin Jon's passionate plea about wanting to ride with his brother into war. Bastard or no, he loved the Starks so much it was/is heartbreaking. however, had Jon decided to ride South to go to war with Robb, he would be dead now, and so many things would not have happened...He would not have been North of the Wall to integrate into the Wildlings to the point where Tormund Giantsbane was willing to fight with him and the Nights Watch. And that is a helluva lot to not have have had happened IF Jon had made the wrong decision in this episode. So many things entwined with that one decision to stay put at the Wall. Wow.

Loved the scene where Tywin tells Tyrion he and the Hil tribes are going to be in the Vanguard the next day. Tyrion is terrified, he has no understanding or gut instinct to fight, nor any inkling of what he is actually capable of...if only he could see into the future and see his cunning strategy and courageous fighting during the the Night of Flaming Pigshit...amazing to think how far Tyrion Lannister has come from this episode to the last of S6, isn't it?

Ah Shae...how I wanted to like you, and how you betrayed A Viewer...

The Bronn & Tyrion Comedy Roadshow begins...stay low, my friend, stay low. And the Jaime Chronicles begins as well. So many threads begin either raveling...or unraveling as the case may prove.

This world, where hoardes of men 20,000 strong are willing to go to war and die to save another man's sisters and father, it's so odd...

The last scene was truly mind boggling. I remember thinking NO, they would never kill off Ned in S1, he is a lead character! something will happen at the last minute and he will have a reprieve...and yet, nothing came. No reprieve. In this first E9 A Viewer, Arya and Sansa were all the same person, experiencing the same horror, shock and disbelief, together. 

Edited September 23, 2016 by gingerella

[Llywela]

34 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I big puffy heart Maester Aemon. And Lord Commander Mormont.  I also loved seeing agin Jon's passionate plea about wanting to ride with his brother into war. Bastard or no, he loved the Starks so much it was/is heartbreaking. however, had Jon decided to ride South to go to war with Robb, he would be dead now, and so many things would not have happened...He would not have been North of the Wall to integrate into the Wildlings to the point where Tormund Giantsbane was willing to fight with him and the Nights Watch. And that is a helluva lot to not have have had happened IF Jon had made the wrong decision in this episode. So many things entwined with that once decision to stay put at the Wall. Wow.

Consequences, consequences, this show has 'em in spades, and some of them are really obvious while others are more subtle, but every decision made by any character always matters, whether for good or for ill - and some of those consequences are incredibly far-reaching.

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This world, where hoardes of men 20,000 strong are willing to go to war and die to save another man's sisters and father, it's so odd...

And yet a principle at the very heart of the feudal system. And, when I come to think of it, any army in the world ever, really speaking. All those soldiers, throughout history, fighting wars in which they very often had no personal stake, but they were ordered and so they went, because it was their duty, as soldiers. Here, the bannermen answer the call because that's their duty, as bannermen, 'nuff said. That's how a feudal system works - everyone owes something to someone, and what the bannermen owe to their overlord is military service when called upon. Most of them wouldn't even question it, not for a second - the questioning comes later, when the whole system has fallen apart and has to be rebuilt all over again.

Although, I think many of those bannermen would concede that northern pride was as much at stake as another man's sisters and father.

[Pallas]

On 9/12/2016 at 2:42 PM, Anothermi said:

 

I've often pondered on why Ned (and most of the rest of the Stark family) despise the Lannisters so much. I've thought it must have been a long standing thing. The Aemon/Jon scene made me think of what we now know about the Lannisters. The fact that Jaime dishonoured his vow to the Kingsguard and stabbed his King in the back (not even in a fight!), added to (what we learn next episode) knowing that it was Tywin who ordered the Mountain to slaughter Rhaegar and Elia's children at the end of Robert's Rebellion, would be enough for me to have a hate-on towards the family name. However, that's a little too recent for the depth of animosity I think is there.

I now wonder if the feeling didn't originate back when the Targaryen's conquered Westeros? I wouldn't put it past the Starks (and all Houses from the North perhaps) to disdain any House that chose to work with - abet if you will - the Targs after they, themselves, were conquered. Perhaps the Lannister's have a long standing "collaborator" status with the Targaryens (not just Tywin being the Mad King's Hand for decades)? The Starks & the rest of the North chose to obey the letter of the new ruler's laws (in order to cut their losses) but "never forgot" who/what they once were. They do have this motto "The North Remembers" after all. That would be a longstanding animosity of 300 years!

 

I like that spec, Anothermi! Perhaps the Lannisters' title and holdings were received from the Targareyns in return for some service during the conquest? As for that recent history...Ned's enmity toward Tywin was surely justified: we don't hear of Tywin's throwing off the badge of the Hand when Aeryn had Ned's father and brother burned, and we know that Tywin joined the winning side of Robert's Rebellion at the last possible yet most opportune moment. Ned's sneer at Jaime in the Throne Room, in the first moments after Ned arrived in King's Landing-- "You showed courage when courage was easy" -- was surely also directed right through Jaime and on to Tywin. Collaborators (as you say), opportunists, butchers-and-by-proxy...not Ned's sort.

On 9/23/2016 at 3:39 AM, gingerella said:

however, had Jon decided to ride South to go to war with Robb, he would be dead now, and so many things would not have happened...

How true and terrible, in the largest sense. Had Jon joined Robb, he would have been slaughtered at the Twins: not served undercover north of the Wall, not led Castle Black's defense, and not mediated with the Free Folk. (And here's to you, Maester Aemon, for talking some sense into your great-great-nephew: Jon Snow, true son of Prince Emo.) Castle Black would probably have been breached by Mance's army, which would have go on to battle Stannis, and the victor, faced off against the forces of the "new" North, led by the Boltons...And then, the Dead would have walked unopposed across the frozen fields of the dead.

[gingerella]

A just beginning my Rewatch of E10 and had to pause the "previously on" to note that when Varys goes to visit Ned for the last time, he literally yells at Ned, "I want you to serve the realm! Tell your son to lay down his sword and proclaim Joffrey as the true heir!" We have never since heard Varys raise his voice, have we? I didn't notice it this first time because I didn't know Varys that well but on Rewatch it seems that this emphatic tone isn't usual to Varys' personality, usually he is way more soft spoken, even about very serious issues of the Realm.  what to make of this? He clearly wanted and was okay with Joffrey becoming king even though he knows he is an inbred bastard of Twincest, but he seems to not have an issue with that, which I find perplexing since he seems to be the only one concerned with doing what is best for the Realm...I think at this point he knew Robert no longer wanted DAny to be killed, but he said his birds had already flown...and yet, Varys always seems to be able to get word to his birds...I can see if that plan was already in motion and was expected to be in play as Robert was recalling it, but still..., why would Varys think that Joffrey was in the best interest of the Realm. That is perplexing to A Viewer.

[Llywela]

29 minutes ago, gingerella said:

A just beginning my Rewatch of E10 and had to pause the "previously on" to note that when Varys goes to visit Ned for the last time, he literally yells at Ned, "I want you to serve the realm! Tell your son to lay down his sword and proclaim Joffrey as the true heir!" We have never since heard Varys raise his voice, have we? I didn't notice it this first time because I didn't know Varys that well but on Rewatch it seems that this emphatic tone isn't usual to Varys' personality, usually he is way more soft spoken, even about very serious issues of the Realm.  what to make of this? He clearly wanted and was okay with Joffrey becoming king even though he knows he is an inbred bastard of Twincest, but he seems to not have an issue with that, which I find perplexing since he seems to be the only one concerned with doing what is best for the Realm...I think at this point he knew Robert no longer wanted DAny to be killed, but he said his birds had already flown...and yet, Varys always seems to be able to get word to his birds...I can see if that plan was already in motion and was expected to be in play as Robert was recalling it, but still..., why would Varys think that Joffrey was in the best interest of the Realm. That is perplexing to A Viewer.

Stability, probably. Varys wanted to avoid another war in order to maintain the stability of the realm, at least until such time as Dany was ready to claim it, I'd guess. Although as things stand, the devastating nature of the war that did break out has pretty much cleared the field for her - but up front there was no way of predicting how such a war might play out, and Varys is not a great fan of violence. He probably saw a boy king as the soft option on the throne to keep things ticking over until the Targaryens returned - but Joffrey swiftly disillusioned everyone on that score!

[Anothermi]

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Castle Black would probably have been breached by Mance's army, which would have go on to battle Stannis, and the victor, faced off against the forces of the "new" North, led by the Boltons...And then, the Dead would have walked unopposed across the frozen fields of the dead.

Aw. Nobody to be impressed with the "Everybody Rise" gesture of the Night King! ;-(

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Ned's enmity toward Tywin was surely justified: we don't hear of Tywin's throwing off the badge of the Hand when Aeryn had Ned's father and brother burned, and we know that Tywin joined the winning side of Robert's Rebellion at the last possible yet most opportune moment

Absolutely, Tywin and Jaime's recent actions would have been enough for ME. But was Tywin in Kings Landing at that point? I know he withdrew to Casterly Rock but can't remember if it was before or after Ned's family were burned or before Robert declared his rebellion. I do remember learning from Jaime's hot tub story that Tywin and his army were outside the city gates before Jaime killed the Mad King. I also remember him telling Brienne that he warned the Mad King not to trust his father. But I think Paycelle let them in anyway, perhaps after Jaime realized there was no reasoning with Aerys and slew him? We know that Tywin had his men sack Kings Landing and had the Mountain specifically rape Elia and kill her children. That still doesn't tell us if he was even there there to protest, in any way, the Stark burning. Not that I think he would have if he could have.

On 2016-09-23 at 0:39 AM, gingerella said:

Varys says his balls were cut off, so it's just the balls...I always thought maybe it was his penis too, which would be a bit difficult to live with, human physiology being what it is...minor mystery solved.

Unfortunately this story seems to vary(s) from season to season. In Season 6E05 (The Door) I posted the dialog from Season 4, between Varys and Tyrion, where Varys has the Sorcerer-in-a-box and tells Tyrion the story:

Varys: As a boy I traveled with a troupe of actors through the Free Cities. One day, in Mir, a certain man made my master an offer that was too tempting to refuse. I feared the man meant to use me as I'd heard some men use small boys, but what he wanted was far worse... He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a hooked blade he sliced me, root and stem, chanting all the while. He burned my parts in a brazier.

I understood the phrase "root and stem" to mean "everything". There have been times that Varys has only referred to the loss of his balls because that's what he was asked about (especially by LF). So, it there are differing interpretations of "root and stem" then we still haven't solved that minor mystery.

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

We have never since heard Varys raise his voice, have we? I didn't notice it this first time because I didn't know Varys that well but on Rewatch it seems that this emphatic tone isn't usual to Varys' personality, usually he is way more soft spoken, even about very serious issues of the Realm.

Yes, although I didn't clock Varys as raising his voice, in both scenes where he visit Ned in disguise he is acting out of character and I mentioned it up thread. He was clearly "freaking out" as we might say in my youth. I think, and proposed, that Varys was taking this path as he thought it might slow down the pace towards all-out war and the chaos that war would bring (definitely disruptive to the "realm" if by that we mean the populace). He didn't know, anymore than Cersei knew, who Joffrey was going to become. It started right at that moment. We saw him flapping about impotently trying to close that Pandora's box - but too late.

Or what Lywella said, which seems to be the same as I've just tried to say.

[gingerella]

Pandora's box, a Magicians box...the box that Tyrion was put into when escaping KL with Varys. The box like carriage that Varys and Tyrion traveled in when he was first released from the ship box. Lots of boxes...people boxed into tight spaces, unable to move from their position both physically and metaphorically. Only able to try to lunge in one direction, hoping that is the direction that will propel them into continued life...

yes, I was also wondering about this animice between the Lannisters and the Starks. I think it is possible that it goes back even farther that the Mad King though I am not sure why I think that. If Tywin was the Hand to Aerys, and he was outside the gates of KL waiting to attack, I can see him having gone back to Casterly Rock to gather his army there and march on KL. But was it to free or avenge the Starks as part of his move? I just don't think Tywin does anything for anyone outside of House Lannister. I think he felt maybe he could be King because it seems to be the one power role that alluded him regardless of his connections and strength.  Tyrion said as much to Shae when she was packing him up to move to KL to be the new Hand. He told her his father had all the 7 Kingdoms in his pocket, and he knew every powerful person there was to know and he always got his way. except that after the rebellion he didn't get his way, Robert ended up on the ultimate power seat, and Tywin got...nada. He got his daughter married to Robert though, so how did that come about? It could have just as easily been Ned on that throne and married to Cersei, and still I don't think Tywin would have liked the Starks because they were not of his blood.