All Episodes Talk: Grunt

[Meredith Quill]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

[autumnh]

I always loved this show....loved the Halloween/Holiday episodes the most....probably because my son was of the age the Taylor boys were at the time.

[andromeda331]

Me too. I loved seeing what Tim was going to do every year for the annual lightening contest. I've recently been watching the show on Hallmark and I forgot how funny it was.

[AntiBeeSpray]

On 7/24/2016 at 6:29 PM, autumnh said:

I always loved this show....loved the Halloween/Holiday episodes the most....probably because my son was of the age the Taylor boys were at the time.

Yea the Halloween episodes were always a hoot.

[andromeda331]

13 minutes ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

Yea the Halloween episodes were always a hoot.

They really were.

[AntiBeeSpray]

21 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

They really were.

Yea. Do you remember one where we could see Wilson Wilson's face for a split second? I think he was dressed up as a mummy.

[andromeda331]

12 minutes ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

Yea. Do you remember one where we could see Wilson Wilson's face for a split second? I think he was dressed up as a mummy.

I remember there was an episode we could see it for a brief second but couldn't remember which one it was. 

[Gam2]

I also just love the Christmas lights competition. Hilarious! We've been watching the reruns on Hallmark(?) channel and love every one of them. Jill was a saint.

[AntiBeeSpray]

22 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I remember there was an episode we could see it for a brief second but couldn't remember which one it was. 

Yea it was pretty funny. There was a bit where Wilson was annoying, but for the most part... it was a good show.

[slf]

I caught a couple of episodes last year before the Christmas season started and this show is funnier than I remembered. It also reminds me of being a kid, and what a smartmouth I was. In one episode, Tim and Jill ended up driving around, lost, trying to get to a wedding (I think) and Tim comes home without Jill for some reason. He says sarcastically, "[Jill] loved it, best night of her life" and Randy shoots back "Yeah right, I guess that's why you didn't come home with your wife." That's the kind of smartass comment I would've made and gotten busted for. 

The episodes that drive me nuts are the ones where Tim jumps Jill's case for something like dinging her car and then he drops a steel beam on it. Or when he got made at her for putting her pottery wheel in the garage and snit that she has the whole house to cook and clean and knit. Or when she got that inheritance and bought herself a car and he threw an enormous fit because it wasn't the kind of car he would've bought. Can't stand Tim in those episodes.

But this show was surprisingly good at the little moments that happen throughout a person's day but most shows neglect. Like when the family gets back from a pizza parlor Jill sits down and fixes herself a glass of antacid while she and Tim complain about the boys. (And if a show did do that kind moment it would draw attention to it by having Jill complain about pain or something. No one commented on it on HI.) Or when Jill would bring home groceries she'd have the boys bring the bags in from the car (something my mother always made us do, too) while she unloaded them. (A lot of shows don't even show grocery shopping/unloading. Food always just magically appears in the kitchen.)

Edited January 10, 2017 by slf

[TheLastKidPicked]

On 1/7/2017 at 4:44 PM, slf said:

But this show was surprisingly good at the little moments that happen throughout a person's day

Yes!  One of the small details they handled very well was the laundry room sink.  (Going from memory, so paraphrasing here).

Jill:  "Tim, don't use the red sponge for that!"

TIm:  "Why not?"

Jill:  "Because it's brand new.  The new sponge is used for this, then after it's used up it gets demoted to that, and then it goes out to the garage for your greasy stuff, and then it gets thrown away"

A lot of people can relate to paying bills where the numbers are so big.  Mortgage payment, car payment.  And off to the side there's Jill, watching every penny by re-purposing the sponges.

A nice little real-life touch.

Edited April 5, 2017 by TheLastKidPicked

[andromeda331]

I knew it was on one of the Christmas episodes but didn't know which had the Wiseman is holding a harpoon gun and baby Jesus is smoking. They just played it from Season 8. I never stop laughing at the Wiseman holding the harpoon (and has more on him!) or walking in telling time that Baby Jesus is smoking!

[Maharincess]

I've been re watching this on Hallmark. Am I the only one who hated the Wilson character?  Maybe its because I used to have a weird, annoying neighbor who thought he knew everything about everything and wasn't afraid to tell everyone.      I just can't stand when somebody starts a sentence with "actually" and most of Wilson's conversations started with that word.  I avoided my neighbor in any way I could so I never understood why they sought him out. 

[readster]

I really hated how they put Jill to be more and more angry towards things towards the final episodes. The entire situation with Brad's girlfriend when she was making him lunches and meals went from "you are making too much of this." to "She just had to be right." It was like they wanted to inject that Jill had these "femist" thoughts, but never really followed through on them and by the time we got to the final season, they dropped because they wanted Jill to finally finished her PhD. which the creators of the show even said they made excuses because they didn't know how they would write "Dr. Jill Taylor" until they got a college consultant towards the end of the series. 

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, readster said:

I really hated how they put Jill to be more and more angry towards things towards the final episodes. The entire situation with Brad's girlfriend when she was making him lunches and meals went from "you are making too much of this." to "She just had to be right." It was like they wanted to inject that Jill had these "femist" thoughts, but never really followed through on them and by the time we got to the final season, they dropped because they wanted Jill to finally finished her PhD. which the creators of the show even said they made excuses because they didn't know how they would write "Dr. Jill Taylor" until they got a college consultant towards the end of the series. 

I love the "she just had to be right" once she started studying for her degree Jill just became really annoying. Always thinking and acting like she was right. The episode when butts into Randy's girlfriend's parents relationship? She didn't even meet both of them and only was going off a few remarks by the husband and started sprouting all kinds of stuff.

[readster]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I love the "she just had to be right" once she started studying for her degree Jill just became really annoying. Always thinking and acting like she was right. The episode when butts into Randy's girlfriend's parents relationship? She didn't even meet both of them and only was going off a few remarks by the husband and started sprouting all kinds of stuff.

I remember the police officer situation when she got out of a ticket by fliting with the cop and then later on after she felt wrong about it and trying to get her internship with her professor told Tim: "I hope you learned something from this." The look on his face when he realizes that Jill once again can't admit she was wrong and is always right was hilarious and any other husband would have said: "Shut the fuck up, you did this to yourself, you were wrong, don't turn this on me." Instead he smiled agreed and walked off. I do remember at one point Patricia Richardson had said some of her story lines were thought up last minute. They  had Jill get sick so much during the series because it was their crutch to use write funny lines for Jill. Writers even admitted it was hard at times to write Jill later in the series and why they got so stuck on "Jill is in school forever" same with Mark until they decided to do the goth/hateful cycle for Mark. They had no idea how to write him especially after JTT had so many movie deals going on the side and Zachary Ty Bryan was easier to write since he was the older brother. They struggled with Mark so much until the the goth stage then they wrote him like a regular teen dealing with being the baby of the family who didn't know how to fit in. However, I hated season 6's Tim's mid life crisis. Some of those stories were just... blah. Not bad, but at times I could tell that Tim Allen didn't know how to handle them.

[andromeda331]

17 hours ago, readster said:

I remember the police officer situation when she got out of a ticket by fliting with the cop and then later on after she felt wrong about it and trying to get her internship with her professor told Tim: "I hope you learned something from this." The look on his face when he realizes that Jill once again can't admit she was wrong and is always right was hilarious and any other husband would have said: "Shut the fuck up, you did this to yourself, you were wrong, don't turn this on me." Instead he smiled agreed and walked off. I do remember at one point Patricia Richardson had said some of her story lines were thought up last minute. They  had Jill get sick so much during the series because it was their crutch to use write funny lines for Jill. Writers even admitted it was hard at times to write Jill later in the series and why they got so stuck on "Jill is in school forever" same with Mark until they decided to do the goth/hateful cycle for Mark. They had no idea how to write him especially after JTT had so many movie deals going on the side and Zachary Ty Bryan was easier to write since he was the older brother. They struggled with Mark so much until the the goth stage then they wrote him like a regular teen dealing with being the baby of the family who didn't know how to fit in. However, I hated season 6's Tim's mid life crisis. Some of those stories were just... blah. Not bad, but at times I could tell that Tim Allen didn't know how to handle them.

I really wish Tim had done that. She was wrong. That's like the episode where Tim learns that his friend is cheating on his girlfriend who is Jill's friend. Jill eventually learns and gets ticked off that Tim didn't tell her and wants to call her friend. That would be understandable.  Except it turns out Jill's friend was thinking about breaking up with the guy anyways but Jill never told Tim about it. She berated him for keeping a secret when she was doing the exact same thing. When he wants an apology she gives him crappy half-ass apology and never admits what she did was wrong. Even though she berated Tim for doing the same thing she did.

[readster]

I agree, they had to constantly right that about Jill, that she couldn't ever admit she was wrong. When she did, everyone in the family was: "Wait? What? Get this on tape! Mom just admitted she was wrong." There were moments it was funny and many times where it was too much. The speeding ticket, the cheating of Tim's friend, Brad's girlfriend who was making him lunches, Randy's girlfriend's parents or how about when Jill wanted Jim to build her an office and then she went out of control because she was stressed out and told him to stop and they got in a huge fight. Even Brad and Randy shocked that their mom did that to him. It wasn't funny, it was a woman who was set in her ways and even if things were shown right in her face, she wouldn't admit that she was wrong. Then you add in Jill's cooking, which was too much especially when they showed she could follow a recipe everything was great. Yet, if she tried to do it based on her ideas, it sucked. It was like the bad cooking of Debra on ELR. Why writers in the early to mid 90s thought it be funny to have a woman or even a guy who can't cook is beyond me. If you have a teen now 15 trying to cook, that I can believe as there are so many teens and young adults who don't know how to cook, do laundry or anything because of helicopter parenting. 

[andromeda331]

Watching Home Improvement on LAFF and UP tv its so much fun and the show really is so funny. But Jill remains my least favorite. Some could have been fixed if her studying psychology could have had her butting into Randy's girlfriend's parents marriage like real learning mistakes or blabbing to Tim and Wilson about Heidi's husband cheating on her as how hard it would be to remain quiet when you do know something about someone you know and care about. But nope they never are! It makes it worse that we're suppose to see her as a great therapist but they never show her being great at it. Tim built hot rods on the show so we do see he really he really does have skills. But all the telling us Jill's great or going to be a great therapist doesn't work when they don't show us any of that. She watched her son's film and thought he wanted to murder his family. Its a horror movie Jill. You don't really think Carrie meant Stephen King wanted to burn down and murder everyone on prom night right? Tim makes mistakes and their framed as mistakes Jill's aren't and that drives me crazy and makes it really hard for me to like her.  

Other times she just ridiculous. Getting mad at Mark for using his karate when he only used it to save Randy. Telling him that they didn't send him to learn karate to use it and even as a last resort still don't use it. First that's stupid plus if she listened to Mark it was a last resort. There were no adults around and Randy was about to get beaten up. The guy grabbed him before Mark intervened. Then they ran away true they ran because they guy was getting back up but that was exactly what they should have done. Stop him and then left. Would she have been happy if Randy came home with bruises?  Telling Tim not to influence Mark to pick karate over gymnastics then try to influence Mark completely towards gymnastics.  

[readster]

57 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Watching Home Improvement on LAFF and UP tv its so much fun and the show really is so funny. But Jill remains my least favorite. Some could have been fixed if her studying psychology could have had her butting into Randy's girlfriend's parents marriage like real learning mistakes or blabbing to Tim and Wilson about Heidi's husband cheating on her as how hard it would be to remain quiet when you do know something about someone you know and care about. But nope they never are! It makes it worse that we're suppose to see her as a great therapist but they never show her being great at it. Tim built hot rods on the show so we do see he really he really does have skills. But all the telling us Jill's great or going to be a great therapist doesn't work when they don't show us any of that. She watched her son's film and thought he wanted to murder his family. Its a horror movie Jill. You don't really think Carrie meant Stephen King wanted to burn down and murder everyone on prom night right? Tim makes mistakes and their framed as mistakes Jill's aren't and that drives me crazy and makes it really hard for me to like her.  

Other times she just ridiculous. Getting mad at Mark for using his karate when he only used it to save Randy. Telling him that they didn't send him to learn karate to use it and even as a last resort still don't use it. First that's stupid plus if she listened to Mark it was a last resort. There were no adults around and Randy was about to get beaten up. The guy grabbed him before Mark intervened. Then they ran away true they ran because they guy was getting back up but that was exactly what they should have done. Stop him and then left. Would she have been happy if Randy came home with bruises?  Telling Tim not to influence Mark to pick karate over gymnastics then try to influence Mark completely towards gymnastics.  

Jill was one character who got worst as the series went on. Seriously, she got down right: "I'm always right no matter what." How about when she caught Brad and Angela in Brad's room. She got in Randy's face and while it was humorous about Randy saying he was going over to his friend's for devil worship. What did she think Randy was doing? He wasn't dating anyone, he wasn't any where near even being interested in Lauren by that point in the series. I remember when she flirted with the cop and got caught on it and still tried to turn it around on Tim that he had to see the error of his ways. Plus, things with Al's mother got way too over the top. The reason they killed her off was they knew it was the last season and they also knew there was no way they could cast a woman in the part after all the jokes they made. However, Al's momma's boy attitude they stuck him with the last few years of the show were too much. From what I got, Al's dad had him and Kal at an older age, but it seems that their mother was a much younger woman. Even Richard Karn said that most likely his mother was in her late 60s by the end of the series and he was in his early forties at that point in the show. So, after his talk about his dad being close to 60 when he was born, means there was a April/May/June romance between Al's parents.  

[andromeda331]

42 minutes ago, readster said:

Jill was one character who got worst as the series went on. Seriously, she got down right: "I'm always right no matter what." How about when she caught Brad and Angela in Brad's room. She got in Randy's face and while it was humorous about Randy saying he was going over to his friend's for devil worship. What did she think Randy was doing? He wasn't dating anyone, he wasn't any where near even being interested in Lauren by that point in the series. I remember when she flirted with the cop and got caught on it and still tried to turn it around on Tim that he had to see the error of his ways. Plus, things with Al's mother got way too over the top. The reason they killed her off was they knew it was the last season and they also knew there was no way they could cast a woman in the part after all the jokes they made. However, Al's momma's boy attitude they stuck him with the last few years of the show were too much. From what I got, Al's dad had him and Kal at an older age, but it seems that their mother was a much younger woman. Even Richard Karn said that most likely his mother was in her late 60s by the end of the series and he was in his early forties at that point in the show. So, after his talk about his dad being close to 60 when he was born, means there was a April/May/June romance between Al's parents.  

She really did. She makes a mistake but no Tim's the one who had to learn a lesson. When she left the hot rod out and it got covered in snow. She blamed it on Tim and it almost work until he realized what she did and went into the house after her. She did help clean up the hot rod though. But even with the talk at Wilson she's trying to shift the blame to Tim. Because he dropped a beam on her car. When she dragged Tim to marriage counseling only to be upset because the therapist and everyone sided with Tim instead of her about their romantic getaway. Conveniently, she leaves out the part that it was Indy500 weekend. Why would she take him then? Why couldn't they go any other weekend? She didn't really want to talk about their marriage did she? She wanted to complain about her husband and get sympathy. I know she ends up realizing she messed up. But of course no changes. Why not? Why can't she be wrong? Why can't she try to change? Also the one when her sister dates his brother? She's putting down his family. Wilson points it out her when they talk but she blames it on her father because he of things he said?  Really? So she has no control over what she thinks or says? I don't think so Jill your just upset that once again your wrong and in one of the rare times you can't wiggle out of it.   

Al's mother got way over to the top too. In the beginning it wasn't so bad mostly because at that point Al and Tim weren't friends. As they grew closer they really should have cut out half if not most of the jokes. Al being a momma's boy really was too much towards the end. The Christmas episode where Ilene wants to spend Christmas with him and not his mother and he really can't decide? He gets mad at Ilene for not being understanding. You don't have to do anything with your mother Al. Find a way to balance time with both.  

[readster]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

She really did. She makes a mistake but no Tim's the one who had to learn a lesson. When she left the hot rod out and it got covered in snow. She blamed it on Tim and it almost work until he realized what she did and went into the house after her. She did help clean up the hot rod though. But even with the talk at Wilson she's trying to shift the blame to Tim. Because he dropped a beam on her car. When she dragged Tim to marriage counseling only to be upset because the therapist and everyone sided with Tim instead of her about their romantic getaway. Conveniently, she leaves out the part that it was Indy500 weekend. Why would she take him then? Why couldn't they go any other weekend? She didn't really want to talk about their marriage did she? She wanted to complain about her husband and get sympathy. I know she ends up realizing she messed up. But of course no changes. Why not? Why can't she be wrong? Why can't she try to change? Also the one when her sister dates his brother? She's putting down his family. Wilson points it out her when they talk but she blames it on her father because he of things he said?  Really? So she has no control over what she thinks or says? I don't think so Jill your just upset that once again your wrong and in one of the rare times you can't wiggle out of it.   

 

Yeah, the story just bothered me so much that Jill was that oblivious to know that Tim would be watching Indy. I mean, she was married at that point almost 20 years to the man and she didn't go: "Oh crap! That's Indy weekend, I'll never hear the end of it!" Same with her talk about how she moved around all the time. EVERYONE knew the story! So, why constantly talk about it? Even Tim's mother was tired of the stories, hence SHUT UP about it!  Speaking of when Tim got the blame when really it wasn't his fault. How about when he got his honorary PhD and the Dean touched the microphone from Tim accidentally dropping his water glass when he was making a toast. She gives Tim the dirtest of looks before he even makes his joke. I mean he even tried to warn her not to touch the mic since water splashed on it and it's an electric device. Apparently an advance degree didn't speak to common sense. I remember watching the episode with my mom back in the day and she said: "How dumb would you have to be to do that?" 

 

Quote

Al's mother got way over to the top too. In the beginning it wasn't so bad mostly because at that point Al and Tim weren't friends. As they grew closer they really should have cut out half if not most of the jokes. Al being a momma's boy really was too much towards the end. The Christmas episode where Ilene wants to spend Christmas with him and not his mother and he really can't decide? He gets mad at Ilene for not being understanding. You don't have to do anything with your mother Al. Find a way to balance time with both.  

Yeah, that episode really bothered me and then they later lead to Illene and Al breaking up on day of the wedding rang horrible. Plus, those tuxes and dresses? What the hell were they smoking to pick them out? I love Wilson's line: "You think I would wear this outfit if I wasn't in the wedding party?" Speaking of going to far. I was watching Bud's introduction and I always enjoyed James Robinson since Night Court and he was a down right asshole during the show. Then he turned into a dumb asshole. I get what he said about Al on first appearance because it made sense. Plus, it was in continuity, everyone who LOVED Al were older. Heidi testing higher than Santa Claus was great and everyone knew that people watched for Tim. However, later with Tim constantly trying to do things that Bud wanted without question. I know that Jill brought it up later on, but seriously, some of the stuff he did I wanted to go: "Yeah, and you think this not only smart, but that Jill wouldn't kick your ass?" I mean come on. Then his exit made less sense when the series ended because Morgan was such an idiot, really he leave the company to fall apart with him in charge? As they say, Plot driving character. 

[andromeda331]

14 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, that episode really bothered me and then they later lead to Illene and Al breaking up on day of the wedding rang horrible. Plus, those tuxes and dresses? What the hell were they smoking to pick them out? I love Wilson's line: "You think I would wear this outfit if I wasn't in the wedding party?"

The tuxes and dresses were weird. Why would they pick those? They could have added a line that IIene loved Gone with the Wind or had it mention a few times before. Although why they would pick those tuxes instead of something closer to Southern Belle if that's what they were going for I'm not entirely sure. I do remember being surprised that they decided not to get married. Although I liked Trudy later. It was so weird to me that they spent what two years building up the relationship. They seemed like a good match. They were a cute couple. 
 

Quote

 

Speaking of going to far. I was watching Bud's introduction and I always enjoyed James Robinson since Night Court and he was a down right asshole during the show. Then he turned into a dumb asshole. I get what he said about Al on first appearance because it made sense. Plus, it was in continuity, everyone who LOVED Al were older. Heidi testing higher than Santa Claus was great and everyone knew that people watched for Tim. However, later with Tim constantly trying to do things that Bud wanted without question. I know that Jill brought it up later on, but seriously, some of the stuff he did I wanted to go: "Yeah, and you think this not only smart, but that Jill wouldn't kick your ass?" I mean come on. Then his exit made less sense when the series ended because Morgan was such an idiot, really he leave the company to fall apart with him in charge? As they say, Plot driving character. 

 

Bub made a lot of sense in the beginning and yes he was corporate. They look at the numbers and how they can bring them up. Al does good for adult women and the older crowd. Tim probably brings in men like him who love tools and everyone who loves watching for the accidents (at alone would bring in a lot of people). Heidi's got all the people interest in her. But I doubt they get much from the younger crowd. Bud had ideas to try an appeal to that audience. To bring in those numbers.  I know Tim objects every time they try to change the show which is his pattern as its Al's to always suck up to anyone in charge. Unfortunately, a lot of shows do end up being canceled because networks are obsessed with getting the younger crowd. I don't know why Tim suddenly changes and agrees to go along with whatever Bud wants. It would make more sense if he was worried about getting canceled and being out of job he loves. But its never mentioned so you don't know why Tim is suddenly trying to do everything Bud wants without question.  

[andromeda331]

14 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, the story just bothered me so much that Jill was that oblivious to know that Tim would be watching Indy. I mean, she was married at that point almost 20 years to the man and she didn't go: "Oh crap! That's Indy weekend, I'll never hear the end of it!" Same with her talk about how she moved around all the time. EVERYONE knew the story! So, why constantly talk about it? Even Tim's mother was tired of the stories, hence SHUT UP about it!  Speaking of when Tim got the blame when really it wasn't his fault. How about when he got his honorary PhD and the Dean touched the microphone from Tim accidentally dropping his water glass when he was making a toast. She gives Tim the dirtest of looks before he even makes his joke. I mean he even tried to warn her not to touch the mic since water splashed on it and it's an electric device. Apparently an advance degree didn't speak to common sense. I remember watching the episode with my mom back in the day and she said: "How dumb would you have to be to do that?" 

Yeah, they were married almost 20 years and she knew how much he loved Indy500 but she still chose to book it for that weekend. I love that the therapy group gives Tim credit for still going.  She ignores that he did come with to focus on how he didn't say the right thing at the right time.  Again why couldn't she have picked any other time? The weekend before or after the race?  Yes, she constantly tried to talk about how  moving around all the time and what things were like for her. Even though it was clear everyone was sick of those stories. Even Tim's mother who loved her and was a really nice woman was sick and tired of hearing about her moving around all the time. It reminds me when she decides to take Randy shopping for clothes even though he's old enough to pick out his own clothes. She doesn't get why he's so upset when she opened the dressing room door while he was still getting dressed (she blows it off that its nothing she hasn't seen before. That makes no difference Jill you should have waited for him to come out and also everyone else could see Randy pulling up his pants not just you), jiggled his pants when the girl he liked Beth saw that, and how embarrassed Randy was by that and the saleswomen holding up underwear for him. She tries to act like she understands by telling him an embarrassing story about her laughing so hard she milk came out her nose at the school cafeteria. Right that's exactly the same as having a girl you like see your mother jiggling your pants and a salesclerk holding up for you underwear. This is a woman who thinks she'll be great as a therapist. How? By telling her patients stories about moving around as a child? 

[readster]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, they were married almost 20 years and she knew how much he loved Indy500 but she still chose to book it for that weekend. I love that the therapy group gives Tim credit for still going.  She ignores that he did come with to focus on how he didn't say the right thing at the right time.  Again why couldn't she have picked any other time? The weekend before or after the race?  Yes, she constantly tried to talk about how  moving around all the time and what things were like for her. Even though it was clear everyone was sick of those stories. Even Tim's mother who loved her and was a really nice woman was sick and tired of hearing about her moving around all the time. It reminds me when she decides to take Randy shopping for clothes even though he's old enough to pick out his own clothes. She doesn't get why he's so upset when she opened the dressing room door while he was still getting dressed (she blows it off that its nothing she hasn't seen before. That makes no difference Jill you should have waited for him to come out and also everyone else could see Randy pulling up his pants not just you), jiggled his pants when the girl he liked Beth saw that, and how embarrassed Randy was by that and the saleswomen holding up underwear for him. She tries to act like she understands by telling him an embarrassing story about her laughing so hard she milk came out her nose at the school cafeteria. Right that's exactly the same as having a girl you like see your mother jiggling your pants and a salesclerk holding up for you underwear. This is a woman who thinks she'll be great as a therapist. How? By telling her patients stories about moving around as a child? 

Great points. I also remember when Brad's girlfriend was making him lunch in their kitchen and Jill was: "How dare you make your girlfriend make you lunch." I was like: "But, she was doing it to be nice." Even when Tim said that Brad had her wrapped around his finger, I wanted to go: "Umm... she was doing it because she thought it was a normal thing for a girlfriend to do." Brad bringing it up was fine, but really it was an example of Jill just going ballistic on things as the show went on in later seasons. Similar to "Dark Mark", which I know the writers wanted to do something different than the rest of the boys and Noah said he thought it was a great new direction for Mark. However, he agreed after watching the final cut of the Horror Movie episode he was: "What he hell is wrong with my character?" That also started the quick turn around with Mark going prep with a girl who was interested in him. Soon as they broke up, he shaved his head and said his parents didn't get him. Causing Tim to cancel going to NASA and going into space. A once in a life time opportunity. I know they were trying to show that Tim got over his mid life crisis (which was badly written). However, the new season started, Mark was fine and then we lead to Randy leave the show and I went: "That wasn't fair to Tim." 

Edited June 25, 2018 by readster
correct pronouns.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, readster said:

Great points. I also remember when Brad's girlfriend was making him lunch in their kitchen and Jill was: "How dare you make your girlfriend make you lunch." I was like: "But, she was doing it to be nice." Even when Tim said that Brad had her wrapped around his finger, I wanted to go: "Umm... she was doing it because she thought it was a normal thing for a girlfriend to do." Brad bringing it up was fine, but really it was an example of Jill just going ballistic on things as the show went on in later seasons. Similar to "Dark Mark", which I know the writers wanted to do something different than the rest of the boys and Noah said he thought it was a great new direction for Mark. However, he agreed after watching the final cut of the Horror Movie episode he was: "What he hell is wrong with my character?" That also started the quick turn around with Mark going prep with a girl who was interested in him. Soon as they broke up, he shaved his head and said his parents didn't get him. Causing Tim to cancel going to NASA and going into space. A once in a life time opportunity. I know they were trying to show that Tim got over his mid life crisis (which was badly written). However, the new season started, Mark was fine and then we lead to Randy leave the show and I went: "That wasn't fair to Tim." 

Yes exactly! Your exactly right! She was doing it to be nice. Its really not uncommon about for boyfriends and girlfriends to do that for each other to be nice. Jill doesn't even ask she just assumes the worse. So she assumes her son is the type to make his girlfriend make his lunch? Why would she think that? It never happened with any of his other girlfriends. Brad was fine with it. The girlfriend was fine. So what was the problem? There wasn't one except Jill who had a problem with it. I wasn't thrilled with Mark going dark but a lot of kids were doing that at the time so it didn't really seem so weird. It was nice that Mark was going in a direction that was different from his brothers.  That NASA thing was horrible it is a once in a lifetime chance. You don't turn that down. It wasn't fair to Tim. Another once in a lifetime chance I hated was Brad turning down a chance to play soccer in ENGLAND! But gets talked out of it in favor of going to college and he can always play after college. First it doesn't work that way and there's no guarantee that the offer or anything like it will happen again. Second its playing soccer in England! That's a huge opportunity. Who turns that down? Brad could always go to college later.   

[readster]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes exactly! Your exactly right! She was doing it to be nice. Its really not uncommon about for boyfriends and girlfriends to do that for each other to be nice. Jill doesn't even ask she just assumes the worse. So she assumes her son is the type to make his girlfriend make his lunch? Why would she think that? It never happened with any of his other girlfriends. Brad was fine with it. The girlfriend was fine. So what was the problem? There wasn't one except Jill who had a problem with it. I wasn't thrilled with Mark going dark but a lot of kids were doing that at the time so it didn't really seem so weird. It was nice that Mark was going in a direction that was different from his brothers.  That NASA thing was horrible it is a once in a lifetime chance. You don't turn that down. It wasn't fair to Tim. Another once in a lifetime chance I hated was Brad turning down a chance to play soccer in ENGLAND! But gets talked out of it in favor of going to college and he can always play after college. First it doesn't work that way and there's no guarantee that the offer or anything like it will happen again. Second its playing soccer in England! That's a huge opportunity. Who turns that down? Brad could always go to college later.   

Speaking of Mark later in the series, when they got away from Mark being goth and he was seeing his love of making movies and videos. Why didn't Jill and Tim come down on him more after the school video project. I mean, not only was that embarrassing, but Mark was that oblivious where he didn't go: "You know, maybe I shouldn't show this." I mean he got Jill in trouble with her professor, even though he did say that everyone says things when no one is looking, but what about Brad? I mean we find out he used forks to scratch his back and then put it back in the drawer and his comment about the spoon, I'm thinking he either used it to pick his nose or scratch his butt. After that, I would have been all over him on that. 

Speaking of Jill not making smart decisions was when they thought that Randy might have cancer. It wasn't like Randy was 8 years old, he was a teen by then. He was old enough to deal with that kind of news then. Also, making the jokes on how Jill couldn't cook unless she followed a recipe or was under a lot of stress in that episode. Later revealed that Jill's father could lead a branch in the military, but cook? Nah! He was a man! Speaking of both Jill and Tim's family, interesting that Jill, Tim and Marty were the only kids on both sides of the family that not only got married, but had kids. Considering Jill's younger sister was brought back several times and her first episode was she was married, none of them had kids? I get Tim's older brother, Jeff made sense. He was divorced, between jobs all the time. So, him without kids I got. Just like Jill's sister who was a photographer and always on the go. They had good excuses, but the rest? Much like Benny who was always gambling and mooching off others. At some point, Benny's luck would have ran out and he would have HAD to get a job. 

[andromeda331]

Just watch the episode where Randy gets his license. Now both parents are worried after what happened with Brad when he got a license. Which makes sense. Tim comes up with a fair idea that Randy doesn't drive at night for a week. That's fair. Give him a week to of driving under his belt and he'd be fine. Jill of course comes up with an insane plan of he waits a month. A month? For what? Randy hasn't even done anything yet! Later talking with Wilson she's still more concerned about being right then realizing she was holding punishing Randy for something Brad said. Randy is stunned when his mother admits in a roundabout why she's wrong. He's shocked and tries to really enjoy it. It doesn't last because Jill brings up that he stole the car. Right, Jill, can't have your son or anyone in the house enjoy that you admitting to be wrong. 

[andromeda331]

On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 7:52 AM, readster said:

Speaking of Mark later in the series, when they got away from Mark being goth and he was seeing his love of making movies and videos. Why didn't Jill and Tim come down on him more after the school video project. I mean, not only was that embarrassing, but Mark was that oblivious where he didn't go: "You know, maybe I shouldn't show this." I mean he got Jill in trouble with her professor, even though he did say that everyone says things when no one is looking, but what about Brad? I mean we find out he used forks to scratch his back and then put it back in the drawer and his comment about the spoon, I'm thinking he either used it to pick his nose or scratch his butt. After that, I would have been all over him on that. 

I agree Tim and Jill really should have come down more on that video. He did get Jill in trouble which really isn't fair. She didn't know she was being recorded of course she wouldn't say that if she knew. No one would if they knew it was going to be shown to the person their talking about. Jill didn't really do anything wrong. She vented about a professor she didn't like. So Mark's never said anything about any of his teachers he didn't want repeated? He's never said anything about his parents, he wouldn't want them to know about? He embarrassed his mother and could have possibly got her into trouble with that teacher and put her future career at risk and embarrasses his brother but still doesn't think he did anything wrong? I really think they should have secretly recorded Mark and show him that video and asked if he'd like it shown to classroom full of people and their parents? How would he feel then? I bet about the same as Jill did. Yes, they should have been all over Brad because that's gross and they were eating off those spoons not knowing where they had been.

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Speaking of Jill not making smart decisions was when they thought that Randy might have cancer. It wasn't like Randy was 8 years old, he was a teen by then. He was old enough to deal with that kind of news then. Also, making the jokes on how Jill couldn't cook unless she followed a recipe or was under a lot of stress in that episode. Later revealed that Jill's father could lead a branch in the military, but cook? Nah! He was a man! Speaking of both Jill and Tim's family, interesting that Jill, Tim and Marty were the only kids on both sides of the family that not only got married, but had kids. Considering Jill's younger sister was brought back several times and her first episode was she was married, none of them had kids? I get Tim's older brother, Jeff made sense. He was divorced, between jobs all the time. So, him without kids I got. Just like Jill's sister who was a photographer and always on the go. They had good excuses, but the rest? Much like Benny who was always gambling and mooching off others. At some point, Benny's luck would have ran out and he would have HAD to get a job. 

 

It was interesting. You really would think some would have kids too. Jill's sister was married but she had no kids? Jeff could make sense. Their only cousins were Gracie and Claire. Except for back in season one or two when Jill's sister had a baby named Laura. But that was back when Carol was one of her sisters (Katie was also mentioned but disappeared too). I liked that not all of the siblings had kids but it would make sense some did. I kind of wish they had it would have been interesting to see the boys with cousins. If their Taylors probably get into more trouble like Tim and his brothers always did. 

I agree about Benny he would really be losing friends and a lot quicker because of his constant mooching. Who's going to put up with that from a friend? Who's going to keep giving money or inviting him over for Thanksgiving and other stuff when the only reason he doesn't have money or anything because he gambles and refuses to get a job. All of those guys would have tired of Benny and a lot sooner. He would have to get a job. 

Here's a question about Jill in that episode when she wants to have a baby. She talks about how much she wanted Mark to be a girl and made that pink baby blanket for him. Which is fine, there's nothing wrong about that. But out of all the kids Mark's the only one who bakes with her, he's the only one she takes to the ballet, and tries to get interested in gymnastics instead of karate. Do you think Mark is really interested in those things (which there's nothing wrong with if he loves baking and ballet that's great) or do you think its partly Jill is trying to get him interested in things that are generally considered girl stuff? Is she subconsciously trying get him to be the daughter she never had? I know in one episode she remarks that Mark's her last chance because no one else in her house is interested in those things. But I do wonder if Mark is really interested in that stuff or not. I'm not sure that's the case. Maybe Mark really does like that stuff but that episode did make me wonder. In the early seasons Mark pretty much goes with whatever anyone else does. He does whatever his dad does, he does whatever Mark and Randy tell him to do and probably does whatever Jill does too. 

[andromeda331]

The other night the episode Fear of Flying was on. I completely forgot the crew from Columbia were on the show. It was a little hard to watch since that shuttle burned up on re-entry. I did look up and none of the crew on the show at the time were the ones that died.  They showed video of them using Tim's screw driver in space and sleeping while watching Tool Time. It  was really cool they were on.  

[readster]

27 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

 

It was interesting. You really would think some would have kids too. Jill's sister was married but she had no kids? Jeff could make sense. Their only cousins were Gracie and Claire. Except for back in season one or two when Jill's sister had a baby named Laura. But that was back when Carol was one of her sisters (Katie was also mentioned but disappeared too). I liked that not all of the siblings had kids but it would make sense some did. I kind of wish they had it would have been interesting to see the boys with cousins. If their Taylors probably get into more trouble like Tim and his brothers always did. 

 

Here's a question about Jill in that episode when she wants to have a baby. She talks about how much she wanted Mark to be a girl and made that pink baby blanket for him. Which is fine, there's nothing wrong about that. But out of all the kids Mark's the only one who bakes with her, he's the only one she takes to the ballet, and tries to get interested in gymnastics instead of karate. Do you think Mark is really interested in those things (which there's nothing wrong with if he loves baking and ballet that's great) or do you think its partly Jill is trying to get him interested in things that are generally considered girl stuff? Is she subconsciously trying get him to be the daughter she never had? I know in one episode she remarks that Mark's her last chance because no one else in her house is interested in those things. But I do wonder if Mark is really interested in that stuff or not. I'm not sure that's the case. Maybe Mark really does like that stuff but that episode did make me wonder. In the early seasons Mark pretty much goes with whatever anyone else does. He does whatever his dad does, he does whatever Mark and Randy tell him to do and probably does whatever Jill does too. 

It's also funny, originally when they were outlining the show, they talked about one of the kids being a girl and more tom boyish, but they decided to base it more off of Tim Allen's life with his various brothers and growing up in a house of boys. Plus, Patricia Richardson had a son and twins, one which was a boy. So, they decided to keep it like that after the pilot was refilmed. I actually liked when they showed Tim bonding one with on his nieces and that maybe having a girl wouldn't have been a bad thing. I agree on Mark, I got where they wanted to move the entire Goth part and as we all know most teens, myself included, black was just a color you wanted to wear. However, Mark's friend, who barely wanted to talk and looked like a future gang banger. I'm glad they dumped his character later on because not only was he one note, fans wrote letters to the show going: "Who is this kid and any other parent would have kicked him out." 

 

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I agree about Benny he would really be losing friends and a lot quicker because of his constant mooching. Who's going to put up with that from a friend? Who's going to keep giving money or inviting him over for Thanksgiving and other stuff when the only reason he doesn't have money or anything because he gambles and refuses to get a job. All of those guys would have tired of Benny and a lot sooner. He would have to get a job. 

Benny got worst and worst and they threw away that he was originally the former Bindford President's brother-in-law. However, I mean when Benny's aunt's house exploded, Harry, Al and even a set of nuns laughed and hung up on the idea? That shows that Benny was a major asshole and I'm sorry, what kept Harry from kicking Benny out, really drove me crazy. He ate his donuts or what ever food Harry brought in. He even revealed he bought tools from other stores when he did have money and needed them and it was a bigger savings. That doesn't ring as some guy to chat around the water cooler, that sounds like someone who would have been ran over by a truck. Plus, you add in that he did gamble and lose money more than he earned with bookies. I'm surprise Benny didn't get his legs broken. 

 

 Speaking of Benny mooching, I remember when Bud sold Tim the season tickets. I've been in that situation before where you have the money, it's something you love and this is an opportunity that doesn't come around much. However, did Bud really think Jill would be ok what that? Plus, Jill went off the rails on the season tickets. Apparently money was not a thing, Jill was more pissed that Tim did a purchase without consulting her about it. Not like he didn't buy things tons of times and Jill just rolled her eyes and stuff that would have totaled more than the season tickets. Especially when the said basketball team was not doing that well in the 90s. Now, at the end when Tim was selling off the tickets, I mean that could have been Tim's counter argument hugely. He could have said: "It's not like we can make every game, we'll just sell off to our friends on games we can't make or do." Instead it was: "Jill is right, now make her happy." I hated that. 

[andromeda331]

21 hours ago, readster said:

It's also funny, originally when they were outlining the show, they talked about one of the kids being a girl and more tom boyish, but they decided to base it more off of Tim Allen's life with his various brothers and growing up in a house of boys. Plus, Patricia Richardson had a son and twins, one which was a boy. So, they decided to keep it like that after the pilot was refilmed. I actually liked when they showed Tim bonding one with on his nieces and that maybe having a girl wouldn't have been a bad thing. I agree on Mark, I got where they wanted to move the entire Goth part and as we all know most teens, myself included, black was just a color you wanted to wear. However, Mark's friend, who barely wanted to talk and looked like a future gang banger. I'm glad they dumped his character later on because not only was he one note, fans wrote letters to the show going: "Who is this kid and any other parent would have kicked him out." 

I loved watching Tim bonding with one of his nieces. It was so cute. The tea party and the tent. I loved him thinking about how much they missed by not having a daughter. It was done really well. I wore black too for two years  (although in my case it was my way of dealing with a couple deaths in my family) a lot of kids did and most of the time they had no issues. It was just what they like. A phase.  It was real popular at the time so it didn't seem weird. I also really liked Mark getting interested in filming. That's a lot of fun. Making horror movies is fun. I did laugh at Ronnie never saying much of anything. But he was either a future gangbanger or probably did have issues. His family was in counseling.  

 

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Benny got worst and worst and they threw away that he was originally the former Bindford President's brother-in-law. However, I mean when Benny's aunt's house exploded, Harry, Al and even a set of nuns laughed and hung up on the idea? That shows that Benny was a major asshole and I'm sorry, what kept Harry from kicking Benny out, really drove me crazy. He ate his donuts or what ever food Harry brought in. He even revealed he bought tools from other stores when he did have money and needed them and it was a bigger savings. That doesn't ring as some guy to chat around the water cooler, that sounds like someone who would have been ran over by a truck. Plus, you add in that he did gamble and lose money more than he earned with bookies. I'm surprise Benny didn't get his legs broken. 

 

He really did. There's no way as the years went on he'd have any friends. No one is going put up with the constant mooching. Harry would have booted him out of the store at some point. Whether it was Bookies, friends or really anyone else I can't imagine Benny making it through life without being punched and often. 

 

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 Speaking of Benny mooching, I remember when Bud sold Tim the season tickets. I've been in that situation before where you have the money, it's something you love and this is an opportunity that doesn't come around much. However, did Bud really think Jill would be ok what that? Plus, Jill went off the rails on the season tickets. Apparently money was not a thing, Jill was more pissed that Tim did a purchase without consulting her about it. Not like he didn't buy things tons of times and Jill just rolled her eyes and stuff that would have totaled more than the season tickets. Especially when the said basketball team was not doing that well in the 90s. Now, at the end when Tim was selling off the tickets, I mean that could have been Tim's counter argument hugely. He could have said: "It's not like we can make every game, we'll just sell off to our friends on games we can't make or do." Instead it was: "Jill is right, now make her happy." I hated that. 

 

This annoyed me. First Bud gave Tim no time to think about it which he really should have its a big purchase. It could have given Tim and Jill time to decided whether they wanted to buy them and sell to friends or something. On the other hand Jill's reaction was ridiculous. So she never makes decisions without talking it over with Tim. I know in that episode she comes home from with Mark wanting to talk to Tim about Mark getting contacts. But why? Isn't that a decision she can make on her own? Either he needs them or needs to stick with glasses. Tim buys tons of stuff without talking to her and she's as you said usually just rolled her eyes. So why now? Four thousand is a lot but is it really to them? They seem to spend a ton of money without ever worrying price tags so its hard to understand that worry. But now its a problem? Then she wants to compromise. Okay, fine that makes sense. But thinks that FIVE out forty is a good compromise. How is that fair? Why not half? They end up settling on eight. How is that fair? Why not twenty or even fifteen?   

[readster]

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Mark wanting to talk to Tim about Mark getting contacts. But why? Isn't that a decision she can make on her own? Either he needs them or needs to stick with glasses. Tim buys tons of stuff without talking to her and she's as you said usually just rolled her eyes. So why now? Four thousand is a lot but is it really to them? They seem to spend a ton of money without ever worrying price tags so its hard to understand that worry. But now its a problem? Then she wants to compromise. Okay, fine that makes sense. But thinks that FIVE out forty is a good compromise. How is that fair? Why not half? They end up settling on eight. How is that fair? Why not twenty or even fifteen?   

Yeah, that was the main problem too. It's going to be the insurance costs for them no matter what for Mark's contacts. I remember when I got them, my mom asked if I wanted to go that route and I said yes and that was it. My stepfather just shrugged his shoulders. My two sisters wanted them, my dad said fine, my stepmother didn't care. They moved on. Another thing about Bud going to Tim about the Piston tickets, he could have also said: "You make plenty of money, since I sign your paychecks." I still don't know why he didn't ask Al, who was interested at the end too. He went solely to Tim. I also though the entire 5 games out of 40 was really a bad compromise. It was like saying: "You bought these tickets, so be happy I'm even letting you go to any games at all." Like Tim was her fourth child. Something that always bothered me with Jill as the season when on, she acted more like a kid not getting her own way than Tim with his tool and building obsessions. I remember when Jill told Tim not to build her office when he was not only geared for it, but it was going to take at least a month or two to build. Even saying that getting Tool Time involved to cut down on the costs and Jill didn't want it because "she was too stressed". I was like: "What?" First of all, she would have just checked in and see if Tim was going too far on something. Second, he had an outline about 2 seasons prior with him as a peanut and Jill loved the design. Third, I get she was busy, but at that point in time, when she was complaining to the shrink about her life at that point. Her father was long gone, Mark was on the upswing from his Goth looks, Randy and Brad were doing fine in school and Tim was just growing a beard sine he was in his "mid life crisis" when really outside of Tim wanting to move everyone to the cabins in the premier and then magically getting over it since he was going to go to NASA. Her biggest issue was she turned 40 and all her kids' issues were pretty normal for their age and Tim was really just being Tim, he just felt his life was stuck since everyone one else was going someplace from the boys in high school to Al getting his own house and getting recognition for his work FINALLY. He was still Tim just in a safe spot from finances to career and if anything. I think he was just bored. The writers thinking that was a mid life crisis, they didn't get out much.  To wrap it all up, Jill in the last 4 seasons was if she didn't like anything, she went overboard with something like Tim did with more power. It made her look like a bitch, not a feminist or a woman trying to keep her head in a world dominated by men. She just came across as her father who it was his way or the high way. 

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, that was the main problem too. It's going to be the insurance costs for them no matter what for Mark's contacts. I remember when I got them, my mom asked if I wanted to go that route and I said yes and that was it. My stepfather just shrugged his shoulders. My two sisters wanted them, my dad said fine, my stepmother didn't care. They moved on. Another thing about Bud going to Tim about the Piston tickets, he could have also said: "You make plenty of money, since I sign your paychecks." I still don't know why he didn't ask Al, who was interested at the end too. He went solely to Tim. I also though the entire 5 games out of 40 was really a bad compromise. It was like saying: "You bought these tickets, so be happy I'm even letting you go to any games at all." Like Tim was her fourth child. 

 When I got glasses I had the choice between them and contacts and went with glasses. I never really had any interest in contacts. Really, unless you know the kid's too young or going to be losing them a lot then its really not a big deal. Jill knew without even asking Tim if Mark would be someone who lost them all the time and able to handle the responsibility of cleaning them. Come to think of it Jill makes a lot of decisions without consulting Tim. The vasectomy was her idea, not Tim's. Deciding to go back to college. 

That's a good point about not asking Al. Give how many games and the price you'd think it made sense to ask both to by and split it down the middle. 20 tickets for Al and 20 for Tim. 

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Something that always bothered me with Jill as the season when on, she acted more like a kid not getting her own way than Tim with his tool and building obsessions. I remember when Jill told Tim not to build her office when he was not only geared for it, but it was going to take at least a month or two to build. Even saying that getting Tool Time involved to cut down on the costs and Jill didn't want it because "she was too stressed". I was like: "What?" First of all, she would have just checked in and see if Tim was going too far on something. Second, he had an outline about 2 seasons prior with him as a peanut and Jill loved the design. Third, I get she was busy, but at that point in time, when she was complaining to the shrink about her life at that point. Her father was long gone, Mark was on the upswing from his Goth looks, Randy and Brad were doing fine in school and Tim was just growing a beard sine he was in his "mid life crisis" when really outside of Tim wanting to move everyone to the cabins in the premier and then magically getting over it since he was going to go to NASA. Her biggest issue was she turned 40 and all her kids' issues were pretty normal for their age and Tim was really just being Tim, he just felt his life was stuck since everyone one else was going someplace from the boys in high school to Al getting his own house and getting recognition for his work FINALLY. He was still Tim just in a safe spot from finances to career and if anything. I think he was just bored. The writers thinking that was a mid life crisis, they didn't get out much.  To wrap it all up, Jill in the last 4 seasons was if she didn't like anything, she went overboard with something like Tim did with more power. It made her look like a bitch, not a feminist or a woman trying to keep her head in a world dominated by men. 

She really did and it really made her come across like a bitch.  One thing if it was like with Tim when she messed up or did something stupid she'd have to own up and apologize just like Tim always had to do. It would be more fair. Tim's midlife crisis made more sense to me because as you pointed out everyone else was doing something new or moving up and he was still in the same place he was when the show started. I do think he was bored then anything. He wanted to try something new. Shake things up. Maybe have a new challenge or new goal. Jill does no shortage of dumb stuff but its never really presented that way. Like her messes up with Randy's girlfriend's parents and Heidi would have been better if they were show as messes ups and learning experiences. Learning not to walk into a conversation and jump in to diagnosis or how hard it would be not to say anything to a friend when you know her husband is cheating on her. It would have been more interesting to see her try not to say anything when she's around Scott and Heidi or at the dinner instead of her immediately blabbing to Tim and then later to Wilson. In the later seasons Jill really is less relatable. She complains about being too stressed. But from what? She doesn't work and in latter years the boys were usually busy with their own stuff so what is she stressed out from?  They don't need to worry about finances so there's not really that worry. Very few people can take four or five years off from working and go to college while their spouse works. What is their to be stressed out about? Then they add in her never able to admit she's wrong, even though Tim always has to, meddling in other peoples relationships , being very judgment (Look how quickly she jumped to assuming Brad was making his girlfriend make his lunch for him? Even though he's never done anything like that with any of his other girlfriends.) and other stuff it really makes it hard to like her. Like the episode when their in Cleveland and the boys bail on her because their well teenage boys any sympathy you might have for her is going when she goes to talk to Tim while he's on air and gets mad at him for not dropping everything at that second to come over and listen to her problems. He was working.   Her behavior in the episode with Michelle's parents. She's excited about her A on a paper, that's great. Even the bragging is fine.  She blows it by butting into Tim and Michelle's dad talking about their wives and immediately starts counseling Michelle's dad. Despite knowing nothing about him or ever meeting his wife.  Wanting to take Tim to marriage counseling even though she admits there's nothing wrong with their marriage and then being so upset that she didn't get the sympathy she was hoping for? I mean that's messed up. And really that should be a problem. If your spouse is so ticked off because she didn't get the sympathy in marriage counseling she was hoping for from complaining about you?      

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She just came across as her father who it was his way or the high way. 

 

 

She really was. Interesting times when she can't blame Tim and is talking to Wilson she usually ends up blaming her father instead to explain. She explains in the episode where her sister dates Tim's brother after realizing how much she put down Tim's family her dad used to do it all the time. It would have been interesting to explore her realizing she was exactly like her father.  The realization she's just like the parent that she really didn't want to be like would have been interesting. Her trying to change from that could have been good. 

[readster]

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Her behavior in the episode with Michelle's parents. She's excited about her A on a paper, that's great. Even the bragging is fine.  She blows it by butting into Tim and Michelle's dad talking about their wives and immediately starts counseling Michelle's dad. Despite knowing nothing about him or ever meeting his wife.  Wanting to take Tim to marriage counseling even though she admits there's nothing wrong with their marriage and then being so upset that she didn't get the sympathy she was hoping for? I mean that's messed up. And really that should be a problem. If your spouse is so ticked off because she didn't get the sympathy in marriage counseling she was hoping for from complaining about you?      

I did feel sorry for Burt, I mean how many years can you take the same joke over, and over again. Yet, Burt couldn't say: "You know what? Stop with the damn joke?" Him saying his father-in-law did it since they were married? I mean, at that point you tell the person: "Shut up!" Now, when Burt went into that Dana had to be like her father from being a vet to having one child, because she was "an only child". Now that, that was what Jill said. However, the episode showed that Jill just wanted to feel like she was superior. Even when she told Burt to have a cookie, like she tried with the three boys before hand. 

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Interesting times when she can't blame Tim and is talking to Wilson she usually ends up blaming her father instead to explain. She explains in the episode where her sister dates Tim's brother after realizing how much she put down Tim's family her dad used to do it all the time. It would have been interesting to explore her realizing she was exactly like her father.  The realization she's just like the parent that she really didn't want to be like would have been interesting. Her trying to change from that could have been good. 

I agree and same with her cooking, when Randy felt he missed his opportunity with Lauren. Jill felt so horrible that people told her that her cooking was not only horrible, but didn't want it anywhere near their fundraiser and even said it in their letter. Yet, even after that, Jill still didn't cook, I remember the writers said that if they made it where Jill could cook, they lose out on jokes. Just like on Everyone Loves Rayman with Debra not being able to cook. However, when we saw Jill cook or make a meal for the family, they didn't say anything except for the college students that Tim was teaching. Who LOVED her cooking and everyone was shocked they were just walking out and couldn't get enough. Especially at that time when there were young men and women just a couple years older than them. However, especially after Jill's dad died, she just never learned. You talked about the vasectomy episode with Tim and Jill forcing him and trying to make Harry look like the hero (though I hated Dolorus's character). It came off as really forced. Then a year later with Jill having to get her ovaries removed due to cysts. That episode really put Jill in such a horrible situation. I got her anger towards Heidi, but even with Jill's mom calling Jill on her behavior. She still acted horrible. Though that episode was based more on Patricia Richardson's own health (she had a cyst removed and had not seen her doctor in almost 3 years and could have been avoided). However, they had it come off that Jill hadn't seen her doctor since Mark was a toddler, especially when he told Tim that last time they saw each other, the doctor had delivered Mark. That just rang false. A couple of years not seeing a gynecologist or something? Sure, happens, but at that point 13 years? Several  jobs that Jill had had, how she was on the boys for their check ups, the many episodes Jill was sick, and she waited until a talk with her friend to go: "Oh, wait! I should go see my gyno." 

  Speaking of women, I remember when Brad went out with the college student. Ok, high school jr/sr dating older boys/girls who are freshman/sophomores in college. However, she was almost 21, you were really expecting people like Tim and Jill to be ok with their son, who was in the middle of his junior year in high school dating someone who was about to be legal drinking age and was on track to graduate in a normal 4 year cycle? Plus, she was saying she would get a job right after she graduated? Then they threw in the entire engagement when they barely were out two weeks? That was just hack writing all over. Plus, they broke up a few episodes later. I thought all the boys dating and girl problems seemed very natural. I mean, really they were and the writers even asked them about their dating life, which all three were like: "Well, I have no problem." or "Yeah, not sure what to say half the time." However, the fact that Angela broke up with Brad because she saw another guy who had a car? Umm... Brad was driving more of a beast car, but since it wasn't his, I guess so, but whatever. I know they dealt the topic of sex with Brad, but I think if JTT and Tim Allen wouldn't have had such a falling out, I think they would have dealt with Randy and Lauren having sex. Which would have been interesting story and similar to how the middle daughter on 8 Simple Rules slept with her shy boyfriend while everyone on the show was more worried about the oldest daughter getting knocked up or the little brother being a "guy". Which really also wants me to go: "Really, Brad dates a college girl and she didn't think about sex?" 

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, readster said:

I did feel sorry for Burt, I mean how many years can you take the same joke over, and over again. Yet, Burt couldn't say: "You know what? Stop with the damn joke?" Him saying his father-in-law did it since they were married? I mean, at that point you tell the person: "Shut up!" Now, when Burt went into that Dana had to be like her father from being a vet to having one child, because she was "an only child". Now that, that was what Jill said. However, the episode showed that Jill just wanted to feel like she was superior. Even when she told Burt to have a cookie, like she tried with the three boys before hand. 

 

I felt for him too. Not everyone has good in-laws and its hard to know whether you just stay quiet and take it or say something. Saying something can blow up in your face and make things worse. Jill just wanted to feel superior she had no real interested in helping Burt or she would have asked questions instead of just listening to a conversation she walked into. You also have to love how she gives Burt her opinion meanwhile she got annoyed with Tim when he was telling Burt how psycho Jill gets when her family visits. And she comes up with that explanation for Dana, when she herself is never honest with her own father and basically does the same thing. She even threw Tim under the bus when Tim tried to be honest about the book her father wrote and he only did it to get the ball rolling so Jill could tell her father how she felt. Instead she flat out lies and lets her father be upset with Tim.
 

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I agree and same with her cooking, when Randy felt he missed his opportunity with Lauren. Jill felt so horrible that peole told her that her cooking was not only horrible, but didn't want it anywhere near their fundraiser and even said it in their letter. Yet, even after that, Jill still didn't cook, I remember the writers said that if they made it where Jill could cook, they lose out on jokes. Just like on Everyone Loves Rayman with Debra not being able to cook. However, when we saw Jill cook or make a meal for the family, they didn't say anything except for the college students that Tim was teaching. Who LOVED her cooking and everyone was shocked they were just walking out and couldn't get enough. Especially at that time when there were young men and women just a couple years older than them. However, especially after Jill's dad died, she just never learned. You talked about the vasectomy episode with Tim and Jill forcing him and trying to make Harry look like the hero (though I hated Dolorus's character). It came off as really forced. Then a year later with Jill having to get her ovaries removed due to cysts. That episode really put Jill in such a horrible situation. I got her anger towards Heidi, but even with Jill's mom calling Jill on her behavior. She still acted horrible. Though that episode was based more on Patricia Richardson's own health (she had a cyst removed and had not seen her doctor in almost 3 years and could have been avoided). However, they had it come off that Jill hadn't seen her doctor since Mark was a toddler, especially when he told Tim that last time they saw each other, the doctor had delivered Mark. That just rang false. A couple of years not seeing a gynecologist or something? Sure, happens, but at that point 13 years? Several  jobs that Jill had had, how she was on the boys for their check ups, the many episodes Jill was sick, and she waited until a talk with her friend to go: "Oh, wait! I should go see my gyno." 

 

The vasectomy Jill completely forced on Tim. It was his idea and when he didn't want to do it, did she take it well? Nope not at all. Yes, a lot of his questions were stupid he was mostly scared and didn't want to do it. She really gave him no time to stop and think about it. Time to talk it over? Yes, her friend got pregnant and maybe she was worried it would happen but that's not how it comes across. It comes across she wants him to get fixed and wants it now.  Its interesting that Jill asks in that episode if it was reversed would Tim think of her less of a woman? He says no. But then next season when its her turn that's not what she immediately thinks of. She goes through similar to what Tim did except she was even less pleasant. It makes no sense that Jill waited that long to have a check. Even if she only went every two years it would make more sense. I really don't know much about how Jill feels. My mother never had one, none of my grandmothers the only one I know if is my cousin's wife. But she didn't react at all like Jill so I don't know if that's common or just on TV coming. My cousin's wife mostly worried how long it would take to recover and nothing went wrong in the surgery. My aunt went down to stay with her for the first two weeks after the surgery and then her mom two weeks afterwards. She didn't really mourn the lost of her ovaries or anything she was done having kids and needed to have it done for her health.

 

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  Speaking of women, I remember when Brad went out with the college student. Ok, high school jr/sr dating older boys/girls who are freshman/sophomores in college. However, she was almost 21, you were really expecting people like Tim and Jill to be ok with their son, who was in the middle of his junior year in high school dating someone who was about to be legal drinking age and was on track to graduate in a normal 4 year cycle? Plus, she was saying she would get a job right after she graduated? Then they threw in the entire engagement when they barely were out two weeks? That was just hack writing all over. Plus, they broke up a few episodes later. I thought all the boys dating and girl problems seemed very natural. I mean, really they were and the writers even asked them about their dating life, which all three were like: "Well, I have no problem." or "Yeah, not sure what to say half the time." However, the fact that Angela broke up with Brad because she saw another guy who had a car? Umm... Brad was driving more of a beast car, but since it wasn't his, I guess so, but whatever. I know they dealt the topic of sex with Brad, but I think if JTT and Tim Allen wouldn't have had such a falling out, I think they would have dealt with Randy and Lauren having sex. Which would have been interesting story and similar to how the middle daughter on 8 Simple Rules slept with her shy boyfriend while everyone on the show was more worried about the oldest daughter getting knocked up or the little brother being a "guy". Which really also wants me to go: "Really, Brad dates a college girl and she didn't think about sex?" 

I remember watching when the episodes aired I wondered if they would ever go there with one of the boys. Teens do have sex and Brad seems more likely that he would. Not that Randy doesn't but Brad's being a jock he's the one you'd think would be first. How would the parents handle it? I can guess Jill would handle it badly and Tim would probably be proud or think it was no big deal until Jill says something or maybe until he finds a box of condoms.  Then maybe he's not so sure. They both slept together before marriage and their parents didn't know until Randy accidently let it slip to Lucille. How does it feel when your now the parent? When you know more about STDs and how a teen pregnancy could derail a lot of future plans. I'm surprised Jill or Tim didn't immediately think about sex when Brad was dating the college girl. That was my first thought. They weren't worried that she was old enough to almost drink?  Also, what teen boy thinks about getting engaged? He'll think of sex and drinking before deciding to get married.  

[readster]

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remember watching when the episodes aired I wondered if they would ever go there with one of the boys. Teens do have sex and Brad seems more likely that he would. Not that Randy doesn't but Brad's being a jock he's the one you'd think would be first. How would the parents handle it? I can guess Jill would handle it badly and Tim would probably be proud or think it was no big deal until Jill says something or maybe until he finds a box of condoms.  Then maybe he's not so sure. They both slept together before marriage and their parents didn't know until Randy accidently let it slip to Lucille. How does it feel when your now the parent? When you know more about STDs and how a teen pregnancy could derail a lot of future plans. I'm surprised Jill or Tim didn't immediately think about sex when Brad was dating the college girl. That was my first thought. They weren't worried that she was old enough to almost drink?  Also, what teen boy thinks about getting engaged? He'll think of sex and drinking before deciding to get married.  

The only time it was brought up was when Jill caught Brad and Angela in Brad's room. Including Tim's talk to Brad that he first had sex when he was a little older than Brad, which I was thinking towards the end of high school. Especially when we met Tim's old girlfriend in season 3 and we found out he never broke up with her when Jill and Tim were first dating in college. I get the show didn't want to do a "very special episode". However, I think it was a very missed talk and situation and just joked about Brad having kids later on and Brad going: "Children?" One of the main reasons why Marty was brought on more after JTT left the show was to fill the void. Plus, they show wanted to deal with divorce and kids caught in that transition, which really wasn't too badly told. My mother actually said she could related to Marty being similar to when my father and her split up and I was around 3 at the time. I do wonder if there wouldn't have been the falling out between JTT, Tim Allen and some of the producers who weren't really happy with JTT either, especially all the bad movies he made in less than a year after he left the show for "school". Where the stories would have gone. I don't think Marty and John would have been at the forefront as they were due to Randy being gone. Of course, it made Jill look worst and Marty trying to find a concrete job got old really fast. Especially when he was a charter accountant and in Michigan in the late 90s? Hell, he would have been hired on the spot. 

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, readster said:

The only time it was brought up was when Jill caught Brad and Angela in Brad's room. Including Tim's talk to Brad that he first had sex when he was a little older than Brad, which I was thinking towards the end of high school. Especially when we met Tim's old girlfriend in season 3 and we found out he never broke up with her when Jill and Tim were first dating in college. I get the show didn't want to do a "very special episode". However, I think it was a very missed talk and situation and just joked about Brad having kids later on and Brad going: "Children?" 

There was another time that it didn't technically get brought up but Randy brings home his girlfriend I can't remember if its Michelle or Lauren but I do think its Lauren. They go up to his bedroom to study. Jill and Tim start talking how they used to study together and that usually lead to other things. They both yell at Randy to keep the door open. But it was a mis-opportunity to not bring it up more often. The scene with Brad was a good one and it was in season six when he was dating Angela. It could have been interesting for him to follow up in season seven or eight deciding he's ready.  

 

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One of the main reasons why Marty was brought on more after JTT left the show was to fill the void. Plus, they show wanted to deal with divorce and kids caught in that transition, which really wasn't too badly told. My mother actually said she could related to Marty being similar to when my father and her split up and I was around 3 at the time. . Where the stories would have gone. I don't think Marty and John would have been at the forefront as they were due to Randy being gone. Of course, it made Jill look worst and Marty trying to find a concrete job got old really fast. Especially when he was a charter accountant and in Michigan in the late 90s? Hell, he would have been hired on the spot. 

I didn't mind Marty and the girls joining the cast and moving in. Some parts were realistic when it came to divorce. Marty not being able to afford a place for him and the girls did happen often. You both split suddenly there's not enough money for you to find a place at least not for awhile so you end up staying with a relative. Its even harder when you have kids or joint custody. Marty not keeping down a job did get old. I forgot that he used to be a charter accountant. I remember the episode he and Tim try to work together that Tim ends up recommending him for a job in construction. I wish they had stuck with that. He could still have problems with contracts, delayed work, or something. I did get annoyed by Lucille making that remark in the Christmas remark about the divorce. That's a crappy thing to say to your newly divorced son and his daughters, its not easy for all the parents and the kids to have to adjust to only seeing their kids part of the time on Christmas. She should have said nothing and did what Jill and Tim were trying to do by giving them a good Christmas their first Christmas after their parents' divorce.  

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I do wonder if there wouldn't have been the falling out between JTT, Tim Allen and some of the producers who weren't really happy with JTT either, especially all the bad movies he made in less than a year after he left the show for "school"

 

I wonder what would have happened if the show had gone on another season. I don't JTT would have come back. Would they have still moved to Indiana? Brad got to UCLA? I really doubt both because it would be hard for Brad to come home for college visits being so far away. He either would have gone to a much closer college or injured his knee or something that sent him back home. They couldn't keep Marty and his girls at their house forever could they? Who knows maybe Tim would have turned the basement or attic into an apartment for Marty and the girls? How would they have explained Randy not there?  Graduate him to college and he'd be the one who went far away and never came home? Stay in Costa Rica? We would have to deal with Jill getting a job as a real therapist. But maybe it would have been interesting to see how they dealt with one son in college and Mark being the only kid at home? I don't know.

[readster]

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I forgot that he used to be a charter accountant. I remember the episode he and Tim try to work together that Tim ends up recommending him for a job in construction. I wish they had stuck with that. He could still have problems with contracts, delayed work, or something. I did get annoyed by Lucille making that remark in the Christmas remark about the divorce. That's a crappy thing to say to your newly divorced son and his daughters, its not easy for all the parents and the kids to have to adjust to only seeing their kids part of the time on Christmas. She should have said nothing and did what Jill and Tim were trying to do by giving them a good Christmas their first Christmas after their parents' divorce.  

 

Yeah, because Marty was either quitting or getting sick of working with others as pointed out when Marty and Tim worked together briefly. If they would have had Marty between the Hardware Store and doing K & B Construction and then moving up to the office department. That would have worked better with the stories instead of Marty testing out squeak toys at a pet store and the boys making fun of him at times. I agree on the split and no money, I would have liked to hear more on Marty's ex's life (I know she was on another show). However, I agree, Lucille should know what it is like to try and make things work when there is one less parent in the picture. Granted, Lucille was a widow, but still. She had to go back to work after her husband died with 5 boys and the youngest was just over a year old when that happened. When they had Lucille talking about how she doesn't know how she did it some days. I always perferred Tim's mother over Jill's mother. I felt that Jill's mother was apparently strict and tried to keep things happy for Jill's father growing up. Then when all the girls were gone, she dropped the weight they joked about, she mellowed out like a lot of parents do when the kids are gone and the grand kids are older. 

 

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They both yell at Randy to keep the door open. But it was a mis-opportunity to not bring it up more often. The scene with Brad was a good one and it was in season six when he was dating Angela. It could have been interesting for him to follow up in season seven or eight deciding he's ready.  

Randy's room was in the basement by that point, but I agree. Even when Randy came home for Christmas in JTT's last appearance, he talked about him and Lauren trying to get alone time and being too busy and then coming home and seeing life moved on without him. I wanted to go: "So, what were you and Lauren trying to do, hmm?" Brad losing Angela was due to the actress filming two movies at the time and the show decided to just get rid of her. Reminded me when they wrote out Jill's friend Amy after season 2 since she landed the role as the mother in Boys Meets World, saying she moved out of town. Having Lou the "meat man" leaving his wife since Robert Picardo got the part of The Doctor on Star Trek: Voyager. I felt that Lou running away with another women was lame as they kept his wife around another 2 episodes and then went: "Well, we don't have any story lines, so let's just act like she left town." Same with Wilson's girlfriend who was Jill's professor, we saw her in an argument with Wilson and then we never saw her again. 

  Characters either got a quick write off, usually lame or just disappeared. Like Angela's quiet sister who was interested in Randy. 

[andromeda331]

17 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, because Marty was either quitting or getting sick of working with others as pointed out when Marty and Tim worked together briefly. If they would have had Marty between the Hardware Store and doing K & B Construction and then moving up to the office department. That would have worked better with the stories instead of Marty testing out squeak toys at a pet store and the boys making fun of him at times. I agree on the split and no money, I would have liked to hear more on Marty's ex's life (I know she was on another show). However, I agree, Lucille should know what it is like to try and make things work when there is one less parent in the picture. Granted, Lucille was a widow, but still. She had to go back to work after her husband died with 5 boys and the youngest was just over a year old when that happened. When they had Lucille talking about how she doesn't know how she did it some days. I always perferred Tim's mother over Jill's mother. I felt that Jill's mother was apparently strict and tried to keep things happy for Jill's father growing up. Then when all the girls were gone, she dropped the weight they joked about, she mellowed out like a lot of parents do when the kids are gone and the grand kids are older. 

Marty working at the Hardware Store or K& B Construction would have been a great idea. Most of the jobs he got. I realize they were sitcomy but really there were no other jobs he could do? He could have gotten a job at grocery store or any type of store and earned more money then he would have testing squeak toys. Or maybe all of his employers got tired of him questioning everything like he did when working for Tim? Not a lot of bosses are going to put up with that.  I liked Lucille at lot better then Lillian. I'm impressed by her going out and getting a job and raising all those boys on her own.  That couldn't have been easy on top of her own mourning. She still seemed to have a full and active life with going to Ireland and I think Vegas. Lillian I liked her telling Jill about the tea parties they used to have. That sounded really fun. And this may sound harsh but when Jill was trying to get her to remember a conversation that was very important to Jill, Lillian pointed out that they had lots of important conversations. Which when your a mother of five yes there probably are you can't remember them all. But I didn't like her trying to keep the house happy so her husband didn't have to deal with any unpleasantness and teaching her daughters to keeps stuff from him. So he basically didn't do any of the raising of his kids? That was all Lillian's job.    

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Randy's room was in the basement by that point, but I agree. Even when Randy came home for Christmas in JTT's last appearance, he talked about him and Lauren trying to get alone time and being too busy and then coming home and seeing life moved on without him. I wanted to go: "So, what were you and Lauren trying to do, hmm?" Brad losing Angela was due to the actress filming two movies at the time and the show decided to just get rid of her. Reminded me when they wrote out Jill's friend Amy after season 2 since she landed the role as the mother in Boys Meets World, saying she moved out of town. Having Lou the "meat man" leaving his wife since Robert Picardo got the part of The Doctor on Star Trek: Voyager. I felt that Lou running away with another women was lame as they kept his wife around another 2 episodes and then went: "Well, we don't have any story lines, so let's just act like she left town." Same with Wilson's girlfriend who was Jill's professor, we saw her in an argument with Wilson and then we never saw her again. 

  Characters either got a quick write off, usually lame or just disappeared. Like Angela's quiet sister who was interested in Randy. 

 

I was happy when Jill's friend left to go be on Boy Meets World, as much as I liked her on that show I hated her on Home Improvement although I could see why Jill liked her. I really wish Wilson and Judith had gotten married. I thought they were a good match and it would have been really nice to see Wilson find someone and had someone to love and share his love of different cultures and things. What did you think of Lucille dating Tim's old shop teacher? Do you think they should have gotten together or not? I wish we had gotten to know Angela's sister a little more. She did seem interested in Randy. 

[readster]

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I thought they were a good match and it would have been really nice to see Wilson find someone and had someone to love and share his love of different cultures and things. What did you think of Lucille dating Tim's old shop teacher? Do you think they should have gotten together or not? I wish we had gotten to know Angela's sister a little more. She did seem interested in Randy. 

I do know that the writers at one point where thinking of having Lucille and Art getting married. That would have really opened the door to a lot of story lines for Tim. Here the man he saw as not only a mentor, but also a father figure was not his stepfather. That really would have been really interesting, not like that meant more money to be thrown at HI for more appearances, but considering how much they wanted to throw at Tim Allen for another season until he turned it down since it was about the money and not the show. You do have to wonder. I also find when Lilian started dating again how that effected everyone from Jill to the boys. I mean, it was really a great story, but only went as far as one episode. 

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Marty working at the Hardware Store or K& B Construction would have been a great idea. Most of the jobs he got. I realize they were sitcomy but really there were no other jobs he could do? He could have gotten a job at grocery store or any type of store and earned more money then he would have testing squeak toys. Or maybe all of his employers got tired of him questioning everything like he did when working for Tim? Not a lot of bosses are going to put up with that.

I agree and some would have shipped him to a department where no one would have to listen to him. Something they seem to flat out establish with Marty was he was a very hard worker, but boy he was never satisfied where he was. If Home Improvement existed today, having Marty go into business for himself would have been the best option. He could have been a private consultant for accounting and bonds. People in Michigan would be line up at his door. 

 Speaking of businesses, I feel Harry's Hardware store became an issue the way it did. First you have Harry offering partial ownership that Jill just went off the rails on (though at that point in time, even with school, the boys were doing less things). Then when Harry and Dolorous were moving to Arizona how Tim basically got tricked into buying the place out right. Just seemed unfair, I mean really Tim and Jill couldn't say: "We can't own a store and run it! It's just too much money and time!" Yet, they basically came across as idiots and while they worked out with the plan between Tim, Harry, Marty, Al and even John. It just turned more problematic than it needed too. I know it as because the actor who was playing Harry was put in a larger role in Boys Meets World (only to kill him off a year later). However, I really got sick of Harry's problems with Dolorous. I got they were married a long time, their kids were out of the house and it was just the two of them. However, Dolorous was a real horrible person! I mean she apparently waited tables for close to 30 years while Harry owned the shop and did repair work himself on the side and how Tim and Al met him. However, I remember after "The Look" episode, every time I saw Dolorous, I said: "Oh God, please no!" 

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, readster said:

I do know that the writers at one point where thinking of having Lucille and Art getting married. That would have really opened the door to a lot of story lines for Tim. Here the man he saw as not only a mentor, but also a father figure was not his stepfather. That really would have been really interesting, not like that meant more money to be thrown at HI for more appearances, but considering how much they wanted to throw at Tim Allen for another season until he turned it down since it was about the money and not the show. You do have to wonder. I also find when Lilian started dating again how that effected everyone from Jill to the boys. I mean, it was really a great story, but only went as far as one episode. 

I would have liked that. I thought Lucille and Art made a good couple. It would been interesting to see how it changed things. Tim now having a stepfather? Even if it is someone he really liked like Art would it be hard to adjust to his mother married to someone else? Give how much he looked up to his own father. Plus Art had a daughter (he may have had more kids we don't know) I wonder how Tim and his brothers would have adjusted to stepsister? Tim struggling not to make man jokes around her. But maybe it would have been fun. I think it would a great change though. I don't know about Lillian's dating because we only got one episode. Its hard for me to judge that one since we never saw or heard about it again. It was a great story. But it would have been nice if they followed up. Its weird that they just dropped it.   
 

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I agree and some would have shipped him to a department where no one would have to listen to him. Something they seem to flat out establish with Marty was he was a very hard worker, but boy he was never satisfied where he was. If Home Improvement existed today, having Marty go into business for himself would have been the best option. He could have been a private consultant for accounting and bonds. People in Michigan would be line up at his door. 

 

No, he really isn't satisfied anywhere and doesn't really seem to have the patience or even understanding that sometimes you have to work a crappy job or start out some place and work your way up. Tim didn't start out with Tool Time, he started out as a salesperson. He worked his way up and really got along with Binford and/or set himself apart. Its like when he's making comments when working for Tim, most people realize just shut up and do the job. He doesn't his remark about the type of wood and rainforests.  What was he really expecting? He's hired to make a set not consult about wood. Did he really expect Tim to just swap out the wood because Marty has a problem with it?  What was him with parking spaces? Again he's a new hire. Yes, Al should have a parking space but that's not really up to Tim but whoever owns the show which at this point would be Bud. Given his dislike for Al, its not a surprise.  

 

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Speaking of businesses, I feel Harry's Hardware store became an issue the way it did. First you have Harry offering partial ownership that Jill just went off the rails on (though at that point in time, even with school, the boys were doing less things). Then when Harry and Dolorous were moving to Arizona how Tim basically got tricked into buying the place out right. Just seemed unfair, I mean really Tim and Jill couldn't say: "We can't own a store and run it! It's just too much money and time!" Yet, they basically came across as idiots and while they worked out with the plan between Tim, Harry, Marty, Al and even John. It just turned more problematic than it needed too. I know it as because the actor who was playing Harry was put in a larger role in Boys Meets World (only to kill him off a year later).

 

Yeah, Jill went off the rails there. I'd agree with her if she was more worried Tim would end up buying or keeping all the Tools. I never applied at Barnes and Nobles because I knew I blow entire paychecks on books. I wouldn't be able to control myself. But if you think about it. Its not a bad idea to have Tim become a partner with Harry, it was a smaller amount. Plus the store could benefit from publicity from the star of Tool Time.  Tim might be able to negotiate better deals from Binford to the store. But also think about the contacts Tim has? Bob Villa and other talented tool people, Pro sports athletes, NASA astronauts, and racecar drivers that come on the show some might be willing to stop by the hardware store for a day to sign autographs.  
 

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However, I really got sick of Harry's problems with Dolorous. I got they were married a long time, their kids were out of the house and it was just the two of them. However, Dolorous was a real horrible person! I mean she apparently waited tables for close to 30 years while Harry owned the shop and did repair work himself on the side and how Tim and Al met him. However, I remember after "The Look" episode, every time I saw Dolorous, I said: "Oh God, please no!" 

 

I did too as time went on. At first I didn't mind they were a bickering couple and that's how they were. That they got off on bickering. But as they went on and on I really don't know why they even remained together.  She was really awful to him. Yelling at him all the time. Her being a waitress for 30 years? She must have been fired a lot for being rude to the customers.      

[readster]

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I did too as time went on. At first I didn't mind they were a bickering couple and that's how they were. That they got off on bickering. But as they went on and on I really don't know why they even remained together.  She was really awful to him. Yelling at him all the time. Her being a waitress for 30 years? She must have been fired a lot for being rude to the customers.

Not to mention, apparently she had been at the same dinner for close to 10 years by that time and had been a life time waitress. I get times were different, by the time we met their youngest son, he was in this mid 20s by then. So he would be born around the early 70s and out of high school around 91. So, to have a nice house like that from Harry having his own business plus doing work on the side. That's something you wouldn't see now. However, they came off as a couple where you just wanted to know how the hell they were still living together. Even if in one episode they were separated for apparently a couple of days. Their relationship became a farce, much like Benny mooching off everyone to the point he had no hair and was being hired as a food tester for Tool Time. 

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No, he really isn't satisfied anywhere and doesn't really seem to have the patience or even understanding that sometimes you have to work a crappy job or start out some place and work your way up. Tim didn't start out with Tool Time, he started out as a salesperson. He worked his way up and really got along with Binford and/or set himself apart. Its like when he's making comments when working for Tim, most people realize just shut up and do the job. He doesn't his remark about the type of wood and rainforests.  What was he really expecting? He's hired to make a set not consult about wood. Did he really expect Tim to just swap out the wood because Marty has a problem with it?  What was him with parking spaces? Again he's a new hire. Yes, Al should have a parking space but that's not really up to Tim but whoever owns the show which at this point would be Bud. Given his dislike for Al, its not a surprise.  

Yeah, Tim really applied himself as a salesman and if you look at him, that's what he really was good at. Even the former Binford President was the #2 salesman and worked his way to be promoted to president since he stayed in the sales end of things. He however, liked to cut corners and save money where he could and when Bud bought Binford he fired the former president out right because he hated his business ethic. However, even with all that crap, I felt that Marty basically felt he should just magically fall into things. Thinking that his marriage would go right back to normal after having twin girls. and apparently he lost his job because of cuts, not his attitude. But then he expected just everyone to just hand him a great job where he could complain all he wanted and get his own way. Which, considering his family, where did he ever get a though process like that? I mean at least with Jill and her sisters, you got why she was and even why Tim wanted to be like his dad so much after he died. Marty, I mean, unless he was looking at John "I have crazy business ideas and have been divorced twice". Seriously, Marty had a terrible out look on life and to be a charter accountant? What was he expecting?

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Yeah, Jill went off the rails there. I'd agree with her if she was more worried Tim would end up buying or keeping all the Tools. I never applied at Barnes and Nobles because I knew I blow entire paychecks on books. I wouldn't be able to control myself. But if you think about it. Its not a bad idea to have Tim become a partner with Harry, it was a smaller amount. Plus the store could benefit from publicity from the star of Tool Time.  Tim might be able to negotiate better deals from Binford to the store. But also think about the contacts Tim has? Bob Villa and other talented tool people, Pro sports athletes, NASA astronauts, and racecar drivers that come on the show some might be willing to stop by the hardware store for a day to sign autographs.  

Granted we had 20 years to look back on the show, but apparently we put more thought into that than the writers outside of: "Make Jill be bitchy it's funny!" Like how Debra was written on Everyone Loves Raymon. Because Jill couldn't cook, she never admitted to her mistakes and yet thought she was God's gift to her family. Like her father acted. 

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, readster said:

Not to mention, apparently she had been at the same dinner for close to 10 years by that time and had been a life time waitress. I get times were different, by the time we met their youngest son, he was in this mid 20s by then. So he would be born around the early 70s and out of high school around 91. So, to have a nice house like that from Harry having his own business plus doing work on the side. That's something you wouldn't see now. However, they came off as a couple where you just wanted to know how the hell they were still living together. Even if in one episode they were separated for apparently a couple of days. Their relationship became a farce, much like Benny mooching off everyone to the point he had no hair and was being hired as a food tester for Tool Time.

It really did. The episode they separated in Harry was so happy during the split. I don't really think he was faking it or masking his pain. He seemed really happy. Plus Harry seems like the type that doesn't mask anything he says. He just says it. She was also wrong in that episode to get all over the customers. Benny sure yell at him all she wants. But the others? Tim probably keeps the store running.    

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Yeah, Tim really applied himself as a salesman and if you look at him, that's what he really was good at. Even the former Binford President was the #2 salesman and worked his way to be promoted to president since he stayed in the sales end of things. He however, liked to cut corners and save money where he could and when Bud bought Binford he fired the former president out right because he hated his business ethic. However, even with all that crap, I felt that Marty basically felt he should just magically fall into things. Thinking that his marriage would go right back to normal after having twin girls. and apparently he lost his job because of cuts, not his attitude. But then he expected just everyone to just hand him a great job where he could complain all he wanted and get his own way. Which, considering his family, where did he ever get a though process like that? I mean at least with Jill and her sisters, you got why she was and even why Tim wanted to be like his dad so much after he died. Marty, I mean, unless he was looking at John "I have crazy business ideas and have been divorced twice". Seriously, Marty had a terrible out look on life and to be a charter accountant? What was he expecting?

 I think your right about Marty. He really seems to think he'll fall magically into things. Into the perfect job. Things will go back to how things were before the twins were born. Where is he getting these ideas? I know his father died when he was one but his mother had to go out and get a job and keep things going. So he wasn't raised in family where everyone just ended up getting their dream job. Tim went to college and started out as a salesperson. His other brothers I don't remember their jobs but they clearly didn't end up in dream jobs and the one kept having hair brain ideas that went no where and divorced twice. If all his brothers were successful and immediate then it might make more sense.  But they really aren't. The only one who is successful is Tim who worked his way up to the job he currently has.  There's no signs that Lucille babied him or anything. I'm not even sure you can blame it on him losing his father so young because he would have still seen how hard his mother work and how things were working out for his brothers. You bring up his marriage, six months after his twins were born he wanted to leave his wife and kids? Because things were hard. So his solution is to leave? What get a divorce and leave Nancy with the kids?  Well, that's great.  I don't really understand what he was expecting or where he got his outlook.  

 

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Granted we had 20 years to look back on the show, but apparently we put more thought into that than the writers outside of: "Make Jill be bitchy it's funny!" Like how Debra was written on Everyone Loves Raymon. Because Jill couldn't cook, she never admitted to her mistakes and yet thought she was God's gift to her family. Like her father acted

 

True its a lot easier to look at a show for twenty years and think they should have done things differently. But others you'd think they'd put more thought into. Like with Jill. If they were trying to make her like Debra it makes even less sense here. Tim could be a jerk at times and made mistakes but he was always called out on them. Plus he had other parts that balanced it out. You knew he loved his wife and kids and most of his mistakes weren't coming from him being an jerk. He's obsession with more power and getting so excited to put engines on lawmowers and other things that he doesn't stop make sure he wires things correctly or question whether a grill can handle what he's wiring it too. With his hot rods he stops to take time to make sure he does everything right because he doesn't want to ruin it or accidently destroy it. Plus it also gives us a chance to see Tim really is good with tools. When messes things up he really does try hard to make up for it. With Jill we never ever get that. I know when I watched it when the show aired it bugged me that she wouldn't admit she was wrong when we had Tim always being called out when he was wrong and having to admit it.  When she goes into psychology. She never ever comes off like the smart, excellent student or future therapist we are always meant to see her as. On Everyone Loves Raymond in the beginning Debra's bitchiness you could understand at times putting up with Frank and Marie, mostly Marie every day of your life would probably make you bitchy (her excuses goes away when she became as bad as Marie). But Jill never really had that same excuse. If they tweaked it a little by having Jill called out and forced to apologize when she was wrong, it would have made a huge different. Her going back to school there are so many other fields she could have studied that could have been more interesting and potential for more stories then psychology (I have nothing against psychology but on this show it was born and Jill wouldn't make a good therapist). 

[readster]

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But Jill never really had that same excuse. If they tweaked it a little by having Jill called out and forced to apologize when she was wrong, it would have made a huge different. Her going back to school there are so many other fields she could have studied that could have been more interesting and potential for more stories then psychology (I have nothing against psychology but on this show it was born and Jill wouldn't make a good therapist). 

It's really funny, Tim's honorary PhD episode aired last night and the way both Jill and Wilson went into things about Tim getting something handed to him (later revealed it was a way to get funds for a new library at the university). Jill admits she was not only jealous, but feeling she was going on forever trying to get PhD not to mention her license. The writers even admitted later on they didn't know what was needed to get the degree and also for Jill to get a PhD, she needed a Master's first. Even in the mid 90s, if she went to school as much as Jill did she would have finished her Master's in a year and a half. Especially when she was continuing the same degree she got her under graduate in. That never made sense because even when she started working for the magazine. She said she had been in advertising before. Now, I get that many end up in fields we didn't go to school for, I did for almost a decade before I went back to school to get my teaching degree. However, I never really understood the joke about how she lost her job to a person who had a "Harvard degree and a pair of Ph double Ds." Now, the joke was she lost her job to a woman who had a doctorate and big boobs, but trust me. I have seen people come out of an Ivy League school who look like a super model, but yet could run circles around you intelligence wise. So, it wasn't like she didn't have the know how to back up her position. However, was their doctorate in Marketing or Business Management? Other wise, why would you want to replace someone who not only was making the magazine money, but was doing a good job and was there close to 3 years at that time? Plus, why would a magazine want a person with a doctorate unless they were going to become the new VP or head of a department. 

  Something that also was trying to put on with something that made no sense and I'm not talking about the Dean stupid enough to put her hand on a mic that was splashed with water (though the water doesn't touch the microphone at all). Was Al so upset he didn't get an honorary degree. He went INTO THE NAVEY! The military doesn't just hand out degrees, Al never mentioned once he went to college after he got out of the military, which would have payed for school. He got license in plumbing and so forth and worked construction. However, never has it be said that Al had any type of degree. His brother, Kal did and it was mentioned in all of his appearances. Another thing is when Tim gets the letter from the mail bag. So, what would have happened if Tim wouldn't have grab that specific letter? Would the university of contacted Tim later on? I get why they sent it to the show because of publicity. However, it wasn't like Heidi handed it right to Tim, he grabbed a random letter. 

[andromeda331]

14 hours ago, readster said:

It's really funny, Tim's honorary PhD episode aired last night and the way both Jill and Wilson went into things about Tim getting something handed to him (later revealed it was a way to get funds for a new library at the university). Jill admits she was not only jealous, but feeling she was going on forever trying to get PhD not to mention her license. The writers even admitted later on they didn't know what was needed to get the degree and also for Jill to get a PhD, she needed a Master's first. 

I would have thought they'd look it up just to see what it took and the order since they were going to have a character studying for that degree. I'm not saying it has to exact of course but why wouldn't you research it? Look up what it took or talked to a few different therapist, or researched some to get ideas on how long Jill should be in school? 

 

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Even in the mid 90s, if she went to school as much as Jill did she would have finished her Master's in a year and a half. Especially when she was continuing the same degree she got her under graduate in. That never made sense because even when she started working for the magazine. She said she had been in advertising before. Now, I get that many end up in fields we didn't go to school for, I did for almost a decade before I went back to school to get my teaching degree. However, I never really understood the joke about how she lost her job to a person who had a "Harvard degree and a pair of Ph double Ds." Now, the joke was she lost her job to a woman who had a doctorate and big boobs, but trust me. I have seen people come out of an Ivy League school who look like a super model, but yet could run circles around you intelligence wise. So, it wasn't like she didn't have the know how to back up her position. However, was their doctorate in Marketing or Business Management? Other wise, why would you want to replace someone who not only was making the magazine money, but was doing a good job and was there close to 3 years at that time? Plus, why would a magazine want a person with a doctorate unless they were going to become the new VP or head of a department. 

 

She went from advertising to a magazine to psychology? That's an interesting career path. I wonder what she did for advertising. The magazine was research or started out as research.  Why would a magazine want or need doctorate? Unless it was a medical magazine or they wanted a specific person to do a bunch of articles why would they need one? Even then you'd think they'd only care if it was like Dr. Joyce Bothers or something. Its a magazine. I just looked up People Magazine the CEO and VP don't have doctorates. So why would Jill? It doesn't make any sense.   One thing I did find interesting was in the first episode with Bud, Jill apparently has been fired from a lot of jobs. Bud calls to invite time to breakfast who thinks that's a good sign. Bosses don't take people out to breakfast of fire them. Jill says yes they do and lists quite a few times that's happened to her. So unless she's had a job she's never mentioned Jill's been fired from every job she ever had? The last ending with her being laid off? 
 

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  Something that also was trying to put on with something that made no sense and I'm not talking about the Dean stupid enough to put her hand on a mic that was splashed with water (though the water doesn't touch the microphone at all). Was Al so upset he didn't get an honorary degree. He went INTO THE NAVEY! The military doesn't just hand out degrees, Al never mentioned once he went to college after he got out of the military, which would have payed for school. He got license in plumbing and so forth and worked construction. However, never has it be said that Al had any type of degree. His brother, Kal did and it was mentioned in all of his appearances. Another thing is when Tim gets the letter from the mail bag. So, what would have happened if Tim wouldn't have grab that specific letter? Would the university of contacted Tim later on? I get why they sent it to the show because of publicity. However, it wasn't like Heidi handed it right to Tim, he grabbed a random letter. 

 

That's a good point. The military doesn't just hand out degrees so why was Al getting all upset about? If he had been upset about not getting a degree from the college he went to after the navy that might make sense. Still a little weird because then he would have a degree. I'm not as familiar with degrees when it comes to degrees in Al's field. Not that it doesn't happen I'm just more used to the getting a licenses or starting out in construction and going from there. I know Tim went to college. My dad was a mechanic and he never went to college. He went from high school to the army and got hired at a mechanic at shop when he left the army. He had skills he picked up working in his dad's garage, he did get addition training but that was it. He knew everything about cars (still does). My grandfather and great-grandfather did wood work installing kitchens and making furniture and stuff but no college for either one both just had the skills. I'm not sure why it was important to Al.  

Good point about the letter. If he hadn't read it he never would have known. Why didn't the college call to make sure Tim was coming? They set up the whole thing including a ceremony but don't make sure the honorary knows and is coming? You'd think they'd call him first and make sure he's able to come?   

[readster]

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 I just looked up People Magazine the CEO and VP don't have doctorates. So why would Jill? It doesn't make any sense.   One thing I did find interesting was in the first episode with Bud, Jill apparently has been fired from a lot of jobs. Bud calls to invite time to breakfast who thinks that's a good sign. Bosses don't take people out to breakfast of fire them. Jill says yes they do and lists quite a few times that's happened to her. So unless she's had a job she's never mentioned Jill's been fired from every job she ever had? The last ending with her being laid off? 

Yeah, the writers thought it would be funny that Jill went through all these jobs and was fired or let go from all of them. Not that many haven't experience that. I know someone who lost five jobs in a ten year period. Even though his track record and even his co-workers never saw anything that would require being fired. He later learned that two of them, their was a new manager, so of course he wasn't hired by that person, so the new managers got rid of who they didn't hire. One was because they did budget cuts and got rid of the most senior workers since they were higher paid. The last one he lost was because his father died and they didn't give him more than three days to deal with the death, which the joke was on them. They went out of business a year later from people refusing to work for the company. My friend has been at his current job for 4 years and is now the VP. I don't get why HI had to put it constantly with both Jill and Marty (more on Marty) on job loss. That it was meant to be funny, when really it isn't. It can really hurt not only a person's ego, but self worth. In Jill's case, she took it as an opportunity to do something she always wanted to do (even if being a shrink was half ass for Jill). For Marty it was: "Dammit! I hate working, but I have two kids to support!" 

  Speaking of jobs and pay, I really wish they would have put in what Al's paycheck was. They constantly emphasized that Al didn't make much and Al even said his pay couldn't get any lower. Even in the flashback with beardless Al, they had Tim saying Al was the only guy willing to work for the money they were offering. What was Al making like $200 an episode? Then that is pathetic, but we know that Al did work outside and was loved by almost everyone with the: "Can you send me a picture of Al, we love Al." I know they wanted to have Bud be against Al and even finally saying that it was older people that actually liked all and if you look at the course of the series early on and even Jimmy Carter's guest appearance, they were all older people. However, Al was in a nice bachelor pad and was good at saving his money enough to not only buy into Harry's Hardware, but also transfer easily to Tim's house property in the last two seasons of the show. Which even brought up more on Tim and Jill's finances. We know that Mr. Binford gave Tim and Jill the money for the house that they paid back by doing the TV show. However, for Jill's constant: "How can you spend money on these things" she did since season 4, apparently buying a house and renting it out wasn't a problem. I know Jill constantly talked about wasting money, but they apparently had plenty. 

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, the writers thought it would be funny that Jill went through all these jobs and was fired or let go from all of them. Not that many haven't experience that. I know someone who lost five jobs in a ten year period. Even though his track record and even his co-workers never saw anything that would require being fired. He later learned that two of them, their was a new manager, so of course he wasn't hired by that person, so the new managers got rid of who they didn't hire. One was because they did budget cuts and got rid of the most senior workers since they were higher paid. The last one he lost was because his father died and they didn't give him more than three days to deal with the death, which the joke was on them. They went out of business a year later from people refusing to work for the company. My friend has been at his current job for 4 years and is now the VP. I don't get why HI had to put it constantly with both Jill and Marty (more on Marty) on job loss. That it was meant to be funny, when really it isn't. It can really hurt not only a person's ego, but self worth. In Jill's case, she took it as an opportunity to do something she always wanted to do (even if being a shrink was half ass for Jill). For Marty it was: "Dammit! I hate working, but I have two kids to support!" 

Sorry to hear about your friend. That really stinks. I've lost jobs but they were all due to medical problems that came up none had anything to do with my work performance. With Marty you can kind of guess why he kept getting fired his 'tude and constantly questioning things. An employer would only put up with that for so long. But I think you hit the main problem Marty has. He hates working. Why complain so much? Why not find another job in charter accountant or work his way up in construction? Most people don't like to work but know they have to for food, shelter and to support their kids. They find fields they like or work different jobs or even one and work their way up to support their families. My mom hated her job probably the last ten or fifteen years she worked there because of all the constant buyouts, new management (who were usually morons) but put up with it because it helped support her family. My dad had to quit being a mechanic due to medical reasons (with his muscles he couldn't lift or do the work anymore) he went to the first job he could find afterwards which was gas station he worked at a couple different ones, he hated it but again it was a job that brought in money until he got a job much more suited for him in an auto parts store. Marty never figured that part out despite being raised by a mom who had to go out and get a job to support her kids. Jill I'm not sure why she was fired so much. I can see why she would be fired as a therapist. But she seemed like she did a good job working at the magazine. One could be the architect but I wonder what the others were? If they were jobs like waitressing or fast food I doubt bosses would take the time to fire her over breakfast.  

 

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  Speaking of jobs and pay, I really wish they would have put in what Al's paycheck was. They constantly emphasized that Al didn't make much and Al even said his pay couldn't get any lower. Even in the flashback with beardless Al, they had Tim saying Al was the only guy willing to work for the money they were offering. What was Al making like $200 an episode? Then that is pathetic, but we know that Al did work outside and was loved by almost everyone with the: "Can you send me a picture of Al, we love Al." I know they wanted to have Bud be against Al and even finally saying that it was older people that actually liked all and if you look at the course of the series early on and even Jimmy Carter's guest appearance, they were all older people. However, Al was in a nice bachelor pad and was good at saving his money enough to not only buy into Harry's Hardware, but also transfer easily to Tim's house property in the last two seasons of the show. 

 

Al not making a lot of money doesn't make any sense. Whatever his pay was he should have a ton in savings. He doesn't really seem to spend a lot like Tim does he's definitely the type to save money or save up when he wants something. His pay had to go up every time his contract came up. I don't see why they wouldn't raise it because he was popular with a lot of fans. 

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Which even brought up more on Tim and Jill's finances. We know that Mr. Binford gave Tim and Jill the money for the house that they paid back by doing the TV show. However, for Jill's constant: "How can you spend money on these things" she did since season 4, apparently buying a house and renting it out wasn't a problem. I know Jill constantly talked about wasting money, but they apparently had plenty. 

 

Watching the reruns I really don't understand why Jill is constantly worrying about wasting money. They never really come off as worrying about money. Jill didn't work until season two and didn't work after season four. So Tim was able to support the entire family including Jill's classes. They never say anything about loans or scholarships so I assume they were able to pay all her classes. That's a lot of money. Tim is constantly blowing money. But again they never act like oh crap Tim just dropped five hundred on tool and they need to replace that five hundred or are going to be behind on utility bill or something. When Brad's wanting to buy a car Jill offers to match his two thousand without blinking an eye. Tim realizes its going to come from his car fund. So he has his own car fund? Which has at least two thousand in it? They have enough money for food, clothes, the house, any tool Tim buys, Jill's college classes and books, and a car fund? It makes no sense to be able to do that or never show them worrying about paying bills and then have Jill worrying about wasting money. Like with the season tickets Jill says they can't afford to blow four thousand dollars on the tickets and mention they won't be able to go on their trip to New York. But why? It really seems like blowing four thousand is no big deal. 

[readster]

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Watching the reruns I really don't understand why Jill is constantly worrying about wasting money. They never really come off as worrying about money. Jill didn't work until season two and didn't work after season four. So Tim was able to support the entire family including Jill's classes. They never say anything about loans or scholarships so I assume they were able to pay all her classes. That's a lot of money. Tim is constantly blowing money. But again they never act like oh crap Tim just dropped five hundred on tool and they need to replace that five hundred or are going to be behind on utility bill or something. When Brad's wanting to buy a car Jill offers to match his two thousand without blinking an eye. Tim realizes its going to come from his car fund. So he has his own car fund? Which has at least two thousand in it? They have enough money for food, clothes, the house, any tool Tim buys, Jill's college classes and books, and a car fund? It makes no sense to be able to do that or never show them worrying about paying bills and then have Jill worrying about wasting money. Like with the season tickets Jill says they can't afford to blow four thousand dollars on the tickets and mention they won't be able to go on their trip to New York. But why? It really seems like blowing four thousand is no big deal. 

Yeah, TV shows either want to have it where no one has money problems, but complains about spending money or they talk about having no money and then are buying out floor patterns and going to trips like Disney World or New York and not blinking an eye. They only ever worried about money when Tim bought something or wanted to buy something that was past the $2K mark. I also remember that when Jill first wanted to go back to school, they were going to pay for it. Even in the mid 90s, it would probably costing close to $18K a semester. There was one episode where Jill mentioned her 4.0 GPA got her a grant for a bit one semester. However, Jill didn't go to class during the summer. She was always off and when the new seasons started she was just starting classes again in passing talk (because you know, people don't go to summer school to finish up earlier in the HI Universe). Plus, the writers didn't know if Jill was wring a dissertation or a thesis depending on what writer was working on the script. 

  I was just watching when Marty's marriage officially ends. I have to say that was extremely telling, while I wanted to go back to Marty being the one who originally wanted to leave his family. When we got to that point a few years later. I felt they nailed the scene between Tim and Marty and later Jill. They were all crushed, but also realized, it started way back then and just didn't recover. Except for the slap stick they wanted to do with Marty going between job after job the last two seasons. I felt it was very realistic how he was trying to make things work for the girls and hated he ended up just as bad as their brother Jeff did when Jeff moved back in with their mother. 

[andromeda331]

14 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, TV shows either want to have it where no one has money problems, but complains about spending money or they talk about having no money and then are buying out floor patterns and going to trips like Disney World or New York and not blinking an eye. They only ever worried about money when Tim bought something or wanted to buy something that was past the $2K mark. I also remember that when Jill first wanted to go back to school, they were going to pay for it. Even in the mid 90s, it would probably costing close to $18K a semester. There was one episode where Jill mentioned her 4.0 GPA got her a grant for a bit one semester. However, Jill didn't go to class during the summer. She was always off and when the new seasons started she was just starting classes again in passing talk (because you know, people don't go to summer school to finish up earlier in the HI Universe). Plus, the writers didn't know if Jill was wring a dissertation or a thesis depending on what writer was working on the script. 

Yeah, that's what they want to do but doing it that way then makes it hard to take it seriously when they do worry about money. You have to establish they have money problems first. We just never see it on the show. Tim makes enough money to support his entire family, tools, a car budget and college classes. None of that is cheap even back in the 90s. No one ever bats an eye. It does bug me Jill only complains when Tim buys something. If you just take money to build the hot rod against college classes for a degree, masters and PH.d which is going to coming out more expensive. My bet would be the classes. Of course if Tim made a comment about the expense of college Jill would get mad and he'd have to apologize. If she spent a lot of money on something that Tim thought was unnecessary again, she'd get mad at him, he'd have to apologize. I love the comment about people not going to summer school in HI Universe because its so true and so funny. Most adults especially with kids would do summer school to try and finish early. 

 

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  I was just watching when Marty's marriage officially ends. I have to say that was extremely telling, while I wanted to go back to Marty being the one who originally wanted to leave his family. When we got to that point a few years later. I felt they nailed the scene between Tim and Marty and later Jill. They were all crushed, but also realized, it started way back then and just didn't recover. Except for the slap stick they wanted to do with Marty going between job after job the last two seasons. I felt it was very realistic how he was trying to make things work for the girls and hated he ended up just as bad as their brother Jeff did when Jeff moved back in with their mother. 

 

I remember being so surprised when Marty and Nancy separated. I didn't remember that happening before on a TV show, on a family show. Usually that ends up being one episode and at the end the couple makes up. But no, they divorce and remain divorce. I don't think that was the plan with the couple but if you look through the seasons there were enough cracks that when it does happen its not as out of the blue. Marty and Nancy had problems after the twins were born and Marty going from job to job. Those things do happen an can lead to divorce. Moving in with his brother after the divorce and sharing custody of his kids. Even him giving into his daughter's tantrums while not right you can see why he does. His daughters are going through a hard time too. Their parents are divorcing and she now has to spend half the time at her uncle, aunt and cousins house. Or when he gets annoyed that Tim and Jill butting into his parenting style it wasn't really about that but him feeling like a complete failure his marriage failed, he was going from one crappy job to another, he didn't have a house and had to live with his brother and his family, none of that can be easy.