S01.E08: The Pointy End (Re-watch spoilers)

[Anothermi]

WARNING!!! This thread was created for an Unsullied RE-WATCH after the end of Season 6 and will contain SPOILERS.

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Episode Synopsis: (re-watch version)

Tyrion gathers a posse. Robb releases the Kraken ...Ravens... and hatches a plan. Jon plays with fire. Sam reads books. Danerys leads a Lamb to a slaughter. Arya says no to a god and finds a new use for a Needle.

[Anothermi]

This re-watch is planned for Sunday, Aug. 7, 2016.

[Llywela]

So I go away for a week, and come back expecting to be a week behind on the re-watch, but it turns out everyone else was away as well, so this poor episode thread has been sat here all sad and neglected.

I watched the episode over lunch, and had Feels, which is probably going to be a standing statement for every episode of the re-watch, quite frankly. Every episode, I always forget, going in, how damn much gets crammed into those 50-something minutes. It's all going on now, at the sharp end of the season.

Syrio and Septa What's-Her-Name, each sacrificing their lives to buy just a chance for the two Stark girls to escape - both deaths implied, rather than shown, and I know many folks still hold out hope for Syrio, but I see this as his death, a warrior's death, fighting to save the child under his protection - a sacrifice that paid off, as Arya did escape and has remained free of Lannister control ever since, the wilder Stark daughter better positioned to escape - making her first kill in the process - but that escape is a double-edged sword, leaving her alone and vulnerable in a dangerous world, a child adrift in the wind. Arya's story both contrasts and resonates strongly with that of poor Sansa, who never really had any chance of escape, despite her Septa's brave defence. Both girls left alone and vulnerable in a dangerous world, each in their very different ways. Poor little Sansa, a child trapped in a den of viper's, boxed in on all sides by enemies who seek only to manipulate and control her, honeyed words but those are daggers behind them. Who can Sansa trust? Who should she believe? No one, of course, is the answer - yet she has no choice but to navigate those deep, dark waters anyway, and in her valiant attempt to plead for Ned's life in court we catch a glimpse of the steel beneath her nervous, timid exterior, child of Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully that she is.

Robb, too, is beginning to show his steel now that the chips are down, taking the big, hard decisions and exerting his authority, facing down seasoned veterans. Maester Luwin's quiet pride in the boy all grown up contrasts strongly with Cat's dismay at her baby boy riding to war. Great Jon Umber always fills me with delight because I remember Clive Mantle so vividly as Dr Mike Barrett in Casualty, and here he is all beard and bluster, getting his fingers torn off by Robb's wolf! As a character, he provides us with a valuable reminder of Robb's extreme youth and inexperience, while Robb begins to exercise his leadership and tactical skills, walking such a fine line. Our first mention here of the Freys and that fateful bridge, dammit.

Some lovely shots of the ravens flying, spreading news across the land - who needs telephones or email, hey!

Back at Winterfell, poor little Bran, left alone to rule over Winterfell, another mere child navigating a dangerous world, his position for now at least appearing more secure than that of his older siblings, but his youth and disability leave him perilously vulnerable, while the constant abandonment by his family cannot but take its toll. It certainly has taken its toll on little Rickon, so young and eternally overlooked, the feral Stark child with a hint of precognition. Rickon already knows no one is coming back for him, and the years and seasons have proved him sadly right.

Warnings not heeded are an ongoing theme of the show. Osha here again delivers a warning of what is arising in the north, but no one is listening to her - too preoccupied with their own worldly concerns. The only people with even a smidgen of a suspicion that the Wildlings might have a point are the Watchers at the Wall, the Night's Watch - but they don't believe enough. Sam's book-learning gives us new insight into the White Walkers here, and his fellow new recruits seem willing to buy into his stories, but in a manner reminiscent of children frightening each other with ghost stories. The danger isn't yet real to them - and that in spite of the zombie. I'd forgotten that Ghost was sensitive to the rise of the zombie - will that prove significant at some point, or was it merely a throwaway contrivance to get Jon in position to fight the zombie?

Jon, like his siblings, is beginning to find life horribly real now that events are moving forward and their consequences beginning to bite, his loyalties torn in multiple directions leaving him flailing, not knowing what to do for the best, heart and head giving conflicting advice.

Further south, the double act of Tyrion and Bronn is properly formed here, as they make good their retreat from the Eyrie and recruit the Hill Tribes in the process. Here again we see the value of Tyrion's quick mind and silver tongue, ever the diplomat, so good at finding the right words to talk his way out of trouble, or at least to buy him time to think, to come up with a better strategy - but he's making it up as he goes along, and is still heavily reliant on the Lannister name for leverage. Here he promised ownership of the Vale to the Hill Tribes - a promise that as far as I recall has never actually been made good. The Lannisters never did take the Vale, therefore never delivered on Tyrion's promise to the Hill Tribes. A Lannister always pays his debts unless the story takes him in a different direction and quietly forgets about it, I guess.

At King's Landing, Barristan Selmy is involuntarily 'retired' from the King's Guard, for no apparent reason other than Cersei wanted Jaime to have his job - it will be a good few years before we see Ser Barristan again, but at least he got his wish - he did, ultimately, die a knight.

Meanwhile over in Essos, or wherever it is the Dothraki are roaming now, Dany, like Robb, is beginning to flex the muscles of her newfound authority - but is also learning the price of her ambition, the vast culture gap that still exists between her and the Dothraki. Dany has very firm principles - goodness only knows how she came by them, growing up in exile with a brother like Viserys - but at this stage her authority is derived from Drogo, not from herself, and the Dothraki would view her as fortunate that her Khal is enchanted by her ferocity and thus chooses to indulge her whims. Dany has embraced much of the Dothraki life - she's had little choice - but she can't embrace all their ways, she still sees them as barbarians - useful barbarians, her barbarians, but still barbarians - and so she seeks to change them, challenging their way of life. Is she right or wrong to do so? Well, to our way of thinking, her desire to put a stop to rape and pillage is laudable...but Dany isn't living in our world, she is living among the Dothraki and the tribes they seek to subjugate, and as we will soon see, her well-intentioned desire for change and mercy will have very great consequences.

It's a strong episode, laying a lot of groundwork for events still to come.

[gingerella]

Brethren of the Spitball Wall, I shall resume my re watch post ASAP, as the Olympics have now concluded and I can get back to normal life...

[Pallas]

I too have returned from the Olympics, and not by way of French House.  

What an intricate, rousing rumination, Llywela. I found the episode as poignant as you did. It was interesting to see that it (and not Baelor, I don't think) was written by GRRM: he took on the workman's task of moving his own setpieces into position. So every character note and fatal turn landed with extra weight, and the boom of canon.

The scene between Varys and Ned is now, obviously, a scene about Varys and not Ned. In terms of Season 1, it's there to give us viewers a glimpse of its hero but in terms of the saga, it's there to reveal more about a major player. "Why does no one trust the eunuch," muses Varys, before noting, "When you look at me, do you see a hero?" Poignant too to see Ned already reduced to set-up man, the featured character who asks one of the leads, "Varys: who do you really serve?" so that we can hear the enigmatic answer we're still uncoiling, five years later. "The realm...Someone has to."  

On 8/13/2016 at 9:25 AM, Llywela said:

I know many folks still hold out hope for Syrio, but I see this as his death, a warrior's death, fighting to save the child under his protection

When you put it that way, I have to agree -- and I'd been beginning to hope that perhaps Syrio was Faceless, if not necessarily A Man. But you're right. This episode underscored, again and again, the theme of sacrifice and mercy, and what they really cost if they mean anything. As you say, the Septa for Sansa; Syrio for Arya, and Drogo for the Lamb Women. Also Ned for the (doomed, nonetheless!) Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen, and on the other hand, Cat's mention of the slaughtered Targaryn children, Robb's taking on the role of his father's savior and Rickon's bitter understanding.  

Sansa did show her steel in asking mercy for her father from her abominable fiance, before the wicked court. I tend to think that Cersei set up Sansa's intervention beforehand (or why allow it?), in order to allow Joffrey to show himself as a judicious yet gallant king -- to work that story on the court first, before taking it on the road to the steps of the Sept, before the people. But Sansa and Joffrey both go off-script a bit while speaking of something that matters so much to each of them: Lena Headey does a nice job of showing that in Cersei's frown that she thinks just looks intent. Jack Gleeson is the star of that scene, though: his question to Sansa, "He said I had no right to the throne. Why would he say that?" was such a perfect blend of real intensity and focus -- the same quality he had weeks earlier when discussing tactics for dealing with the North, with Cersei -- as well as fear, confusion, and an almost touching effort to be what Robert called "kingly." 

Tywin glinting at Tyrion as the prodigal imp introduces his "com-pan-i-ons" with courtly address (A look I'm sure Tyrion know well, which translates as, "I tell Jaime to say something clever, and he's stymied. I know better than to say the same to you, and yet...")  And then Tywin's beautifully under-played, grim delight when Shagga presents him with the demand that Tyrion be sent into battle, as the price of the Hill Tribes' joining Tywin's force.  

All the son and daughters speaking up or taking stands or crossing Rubicons, or rather, the river girded by The Twins' bridge. Sansa makes her plea to Joffrey and get heard; Dany rejects Jorah's notion that she has a gentle heart, but makes her pleas to Drogo, and prevails; Robb makes bold yet measured moves, and wins approval from Luwin, Theon, Large Jon, the bannerman and his mother, despite her dread; even Sam speaks up and wins this praise from the other Mormont: "You may be a coward but you're not stupid." Jon does something "stupid" (as Tywin would say, and Mormont did), and gets confined to solitary emo, before saving Mormont's life. And Arya makes her first kill, then runs like Nymeria to fight another day. 

In this story, is it only the children who refuse to act in accordance with their role at birth, who live?

Edited August 29, 2016 by Pallas
Brushing up

[Pallas]

Thinking a little more about what GRRM did with "his" episode, how he pressed his maker's mark. 

He takes on "mercy" with a gimlet eye: that of Varys, who is even dressed like a spider when he drops in to visit poor Ned. I'm reminded of the arch-humanist E.B. White's childhood tale, Charlotte's Web, when Charlotte the spider roundly disillusions Wilbur the pig, who pipes up that her methods are cruel. She reminds him that no one brings her dinner in a bucket, that she was made to spin webs, trap flies and drink blood, that she must devote most of her days to doing what it takes to stay alive. Wilbur lies down that night to ponder (as Charlotte prepares to eat her latest victim), thinking, "Charlotte is fierce, brutal, scheming, bloodthirsty—everything I don’t like. How can I learn to like her, even though she is pretty and, of course, clever?”  Clever and, of course, in that story, no human ever sees that it is Charlotte's scheming and Charlotte's handiwork -- not some miracle -- that create the webs that eventually save Wilbur. 

Varys begins by telling Ned, "You know you're as good as dead," then "alas"-es some about how the Starks no longer hold even the wrong Lannister son, and then -- looking as if he's trying to restrain himself from reaching between the bars to cuff Ned on his lordly brow -- asks Ned, "Why did you tell that Queen that you knew..."  "Mercy," Ned shrugs.  And bless him/Sean Bean for not giving that a "But-I-wouldn't-expect-you-to-understand" air, and instead, sounding as if this question is something he's had the time to put to himself, and that he's made peace with the answer.  

Now Varys gives it to Ned between the eyes. "Your mercy killed King Robert." I can't think of anything Varys has said to anyone that's as bald, cruel and true. Not to Tyrion, not even when trying to goad him. I think he chooses to deal this blow to the good-as-dead "good" lord from spite mixed with respect mixed with relief that there's no need for politesse between the living and the dead. And also, perhaps, the desire for a bit of recognition from this good rough lord. He who Varys had tried to advise in what Varys believed at the time were equally plain words -- "(Your late predecessor) asked too many questions" -- the other time Varys sought out Ned alone. After that and in public, Varys could only advise Ned in Varys-speak: "One hopes the boy does not blame himself too much...," Varys said of Lancel-the-accomplice, outside Robert's death-chamber, in the presence of ambitious Renly, by way of giving Ned another direction to go in to buy time while also tracing the plot back to Cersei. The looks both Ned and Renly turned on Varys then! Who is this creature and who talks like that! 

All that, I think, was on Varys and GRRM's mind. Here's how it is, says Varys, even for folks like you. Mercy may not only get you killed; it can also spare the wicked at the cost of the good, or -- put another way -- spare people who would ruin you and yours, so that they get their chance; or, spare people you can't stomach, and kill those you love. That's your mercy for you, milord.

We'll see that reinforced immediately, when the witch kills Dany's son and Drogo, or even when Tyrion tells his troops, "These are good brave men!  Let's go kill them!"  And we'll hear it a lot over the next five years: the Hound to Arya, Thorne to Jon ("You have a good heart, Jon Snow, and it will get us all killed"), where characters more heavily-shaded than Varys try to temper that Stark pointy-end.

And yet, why does Varys come to Ned. Yes, for our sake, so we can begin to get to know the one man of the two with whom we'll be spending time, going forward. But also, to bring him some water. And also, to bring him some information: he holds no cards in dealing with the Lannisters now, and if he wants to live and spare his family, time to fold. And also, incidental to that, to bring Ned some other news he needs: that Arya has escaped, and Varys's little birds can't find her -- at least, not in a way that Varys sees fit to share with the Queen. 

Why does Varys visit Ned. A mission of mercy, or to soften him up for the next day's pre-trial negotiations, that Varys thinks will save the realm from this good man's deadly innocence and the Queen's vicious anxiety. I think it's mostly that. But telling the loyal, merciful Hand about his Arya -- that strange girl-child who Varys knows went missing once before, while in training with what Varys surely knows was no dancing master -- that, it seems, gave the Varys a satisfaction akin (in ways) to Littlefinger's, in a putting a knife to Ned's throat. The Spider may as well have said to Arya's father, SOME KID.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

All that, I think, was on Varys and GRRM's mind. Here's how it is, says Varys, even for folks like you. Mercy may not only get you killed; it can also spare the wicked at the cost of the good, or -- put another way -- spare people who would ruin you and yours, so that they get their chance; or, spare people you can't stomach, and kill those you love. That's your mercy for you, milord.

Welcome back, Pallas! I was beginning to feel a tad lonely.

Your lovely, well-thought out post reminded me strongly of a quote from the Firefly round-up movie, Serenity, when Zoe says, "Know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed." Poor Ned almost personifies that quote. He fits the mold of the hero so exactly: stalwart and upright and true, the loyal, honest man surrounded by crooks, a lone voice calling for justice and fair play, so doggedly determined to do the right thing at all costs...but the cost, it turns out, is lives, so very many of them. Ned's brand of heroism got a lot of people killed, including himself, because he isn't living in a romance, because in this story heroism isn't followed by a happy ending, because nothing in this universe could ever be so simple and believing it could be is the kind of naivety that got Ned killed. Poor Ned, he was doomed the moment Robert set out from King's Landing to offer him the job, a job for which, I think we'll all agree, he was supremely ill-suited. An inflexible character like Ned's could never have hoped to successfully navigate the murky politics of King's Landing. And he knew it, but he tried anyway, because Robert asked him to, because Jon Arryn was killed, because it was the right thing to do. Sometimes the right thing to do is the absolute worst thing to do, because heroism gets people killed and mercy is a very dangerous thing indeed, especially when injudiciously applied.

Then again, had Ned known what was to come, if he was given the chance to change it...could he have brought himself to condemn Cersei's children? I'm not sure that he could. If he withheld that mercy, he wouldn't be Ned

Edited August 24, 2016 by Llywela

[Llywela]

Just wanted to add as a rider to the above that I don't think A Show is trying to tell us that heroism and mercy are bad things, but rather that they cannot be exercised blindly in the belief that doing that elusive right thing is the only thing that matters. That was Ned's fatal flaw: too rigid, too uncompromising in his thinking, too unwilling to think outside the box...or, quite frankly, to think things through properly at all. No consideration whatsoever given to the possible ramifications of his actions, all he could see was the course of action he chose as 'right'. He simply reached his conclusion and allowed it to blind him to all other considerations - such as the fact that others would not think, feel or act in the same way as himself. There were ways of saving Cersei's children that didn't involve giving her the head's up, but those other options required guile and cunning, which straightforward Ned would see as beneath him.  And so he allowed himself to believe that his blunt honesty and sense of fair play would carry everyone else with him - only to find that it was he who got swept away by the tide.

Dany, too, suffers here at the pointy end of the season because her mercy is exercised blindly. She sees a situation she cannot tolerate and she acts on it, a gut reaction born of principles and compassion, but without thinking it through at all. She's thinking short term - how can I resolve this situation here and now? She's taken her eye off the long game, and, like Ned, doesn't stop for a moment to consider that the people around her will not think, feel or act in the same way as herself, doesn't anticipate any of the possible ramifications of her actions. Like Ned, she allows herself to believe that her principles and compassion will carry everyone else with her, that if she can only show them the right way to act, they will embrace it - but, like Ned, ultimately it is Dany who gets swept away by the tide of events triggered by her mercy. But unlike Ned, Dany will live to learn the lesson. The Dany of later seasons is still principled and compassionate, and she is still impulsive, still uncompromising in the path she seeks to pursue, but she has learned to anticipate the reactions of others and factor them into her plans.

[Pallas]

On 8/25/2016 at 1:39 AM, Llywela said:

I don't think A Show is trying to tell us that heroism and mercy are bad things, but rather that they cannot be exercised blindly in the belief that doing that elusive right thing is the only thing that matters. That was Ned's fatal flaw: too rigid, too uncompromising in his thinking, too unwilling to think outside the box...or, quite frankly, to think things through properly at all.

I thoroughly agree, Llywela. Ned was doomed, and in fact, around ep 6, our original TWoP corps of Unsullied quickened to the understanding that Ned's end was inevitable and imminent. The surprise was how close he came to being reprieved, and then the swift reversal, at Joffrey's command. No one got that right. But so certain were we that Ned would die after he was taken prisoner, we started trying to top one another in doleful dark humor on that score. (I believe it was WhiteStumbler, for example, who wrote the post that handicapped the various odds for when and how; I followed up with  "1. While trying to escape. 2. 'While trying to escape,'" and so on.) 

Would Ned have done it differently, if he had somehow known for certain that he would die, and his death help launch another war? And if somehow, he also knew that no matter how many he saved by taking other actions, Cersei's and Jaime's children would still be put to death as a direct result. (I take your point that he had ways to save them too, but let's say here...) No, you're right, it's true, he couldn't. Ned can't spell expedient. He doesn't follow The New Math. To Ned, you don't kill children -- you don't kill civilians --- to save any exponentially greater number of soldiers, including those who threaten your own children and civilians. Ned will not give that order; he won't even carry it out. As you imply, Ned believes that all he can be responsible for are his own actions, and the Old Gods and other men must then do what they will.

Ned's a man who went off to two wars, helped lead his side to victory in both, and what spoils did he came back with, each time? The young son of his enemy, who he raised as his own or with his own. Yes, one was his nephew and the other a hostage, but still: what were the odds?  Now I'm imagining Catelyn's face fall as Ned rode through the gates of Winterfell, home safe at last from the Greyjoy Rebellion, and beside him, a strange seven-year-old boy...Her greeting: "Was it really that long this time, Ned Stark?" 

Ned came in for a lot of Tywin's favorite insult from some on our thread, but I think he did all right. He let himself learn things he absolutely did not want to know: the scope of Robert's dissolution, and the illegitimacy of his heirs; Cersei and Jaime's treason and role in Bran's fall; Tywin's manipulations...He was mostly just not as clever as Baelish, the wild card. Ned misjudged him, and Varys as well -- two impossibly shrewd, inveterate courtiers who were determined to be under-estimated, in different ways and for different reasons -- and made the great mistake of believing a wronged wife needed his protection, to save her children.

Ned saw Cersei being continually humiliated by Robert; he saw Robert strike her, in Ned's name; he drew the conclusion that once again -- as with Jon, as with Danaerys -- he was all that stood between her and "Robert's wrath." Cersei asks him, "What of my wrath, Lord Stark?" and Ned simply doesn't hear the question, any more than he ever comprehended Varys. She also quickly covers by confusing Ned further, telling him that he should have taken the throne -- an opinion Ned has surely heard before, but not from Robert's wife, Jaime's lover and Tywin's daughter, and in tones of cool appraisal. Finally she leaves him with this parting shot: "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die," to which Ned can only wonder, "What's she going on about? Game? Play? Me?" 

Ned's not stupid; he's simply, as Cersei also pointed out, "a soldier" and a lord. He's done the things that lords and soldiers do, and met the people that lords and soldiers meet. Littlefinger's much more of a known quantity to him: the snarky attache, the ambitious subordinate. And Ned gets that measure of him at once. "You're a funny man."  "He loves you still." But Ned's experience with lesser Littlefingers blinds him, even more than Catelyn's recommendation. He doesn't lose sight of what he's dealing with, but of who. In Ned's last gambit, he summons Littlefinger to him, stares stonily at his "My Lord Protector" crap, dismisses his counsel with an entirely un-shocked, "Are you entirely without honor?" and even gives Baelish the point that yes, he does have a hard time asking a pimp to bribe soldiers for him -- but nonetheless, knows who to ask for what, and wants it done.

He takes Renly's measure, too: a bit like Colin Powell gazing at Bill Clinton. In Renly Ned sees the face of a new world he neither understands not opposes. As a soldier Ned appreciates the brains and probably the grace. Charming men charm men, too. But Renly isn't a good soldier, or younger heir: he doesn't put himself at the Lord Protector's disposal and work through ways to deal with Cersei, before advancing his own cause. Instead, Renly asks Ned to declare himself for Renly first, and while Robert still wheezes. Maybe he had advice from Littlefinger...

Cersei steals a march on Ned by having Robert declared dead (no mention of a funeral, let alone a feast); she names Joffrey king and herself Queen-Regent. If the City Guard had been bought for Ned, though, Ned would still have carried the day in King's Landing. For a time. But long enough for Stannis to muster a great enough army and make his way there? Tywin's army is already on the field, now nicely disposed on either side of King's Landing; meanwhile, Renly's army was being assembled. Again, it's as you say Llywela: he doesn't really think it through, perhaps because he still can't quite believe that any Westerosi great lord -- anyone from his own class -- would presume to seize the throne without either legal right or moral sanction.

He does and he doesn't fall into Littlefinger's sexposition snare. I don't think Ned feels that he's so good, he'll enthrall Littlefinger. But I do think Ned believes that not he, but the values he upholds, speak to all men's souls, and have the universal power to uplift them. That a moral compass, calibrated like his own, is not a social construct, but innate. He has to believe it: it's how he's lived his life, killed many men and served a few, and made peace with the gods' will. Believe anything else, and among his own he'd have to be a radical or become an existentialist. 

Yet if Ned's mercy to Cersei and her children killed King Robert, it's Ned's mercy to King Robert that kills Ned. Because this story is complex and written by a grownup, Ned can be and do everything we say above, and yet. I think roughly half of the key moments we witness in Ned's life show him acting against his duty, even his "higher responsibility."

With Ned, for every personal execution of the young man of the Watch, there's a walking-away from killing Danaerys by proxy; for every answering-of-Robert's-call, there's a lie of omission about Lyanna and Jon, and ultimately, a whopper of omission about Robert's own children, as well as a false transcription. For every "I, Lord Eddard Stark, in the name of King Robert, sentence you..." we have Ned on his knees, swearing he's a usurper and a traitor to Joffrey the rightful King, to save his daughters. And that's why we don't look away.

[Anothermi]

On 2016-08-13 at 6:25 AM, Llywela said:

Syrio and Septa What's-Her-Name, each sacrificing their lives to buy just a chance for the two Stark girls to escape - both deaths implied, rather than shown, and I know many folks still hold out hope for Syrio, but I see this as his death, a warrior's death, fighting to save the child under his protection - a sacrifice that paid off

Difficult as this was to watch I agree with your assessment (but I'll keep my Syrio fantasies thankyou, there's room enough for both in my fantasy world). It's interesting to me that I "remember" a lot more menace and perhaps even blood in the Septa's scene. This time didn't even notice the sound of her death - which is sometimes what we get in lieu of a gory scene.

On 2016-08-13 at 6:25 AM, Llywela said:

Poor little Sansa, a child trapped in a den of viper's, boxed in on all sides by enemies who seek only to manipulate and control her, honeyed words but those are daggers behind them.

She looked so very young during the scene where she is in front of Cersei and the Small Council being urged to send the letter to her mother and brother. I don't recall her looking that young even in episode one!

On 2016-08-13 at 6:25 AM, Llywela said:

Robb, too, is beginning to show his steel now that the chips are down, taking the big, hard decisions and exerting his authority, facing down seasoned veterans. Maester Luwin's quiet pride in the boy all grown up contrasts strongly with Cat's dismay at her baby boy riding to war.

Eloquently put. I'd read this thread before watching the episode and so I noticed these things right away. Luwin's quiet pride. The steely looks Robb gave Cat and Umber when he was speaking to the Lannister spy. Also of note was how well the actors portrayed Cat and Robb's reunion in front of his bannermen. Both wanted to fling their arms around each other and both held themselves in check as things were different now. Robb was a leader.

On 2016-08-13 at 6:25 AM, Llywela said:

Some lovely shots of the ravens flying, spreading news across the land - who needs telephones or email, hey!

I remember being quite struck by the powerful symbol of all those ravens flying out across the North to gather the banners. Five (& a bit) seasons later (S06) we see the white ravens streaming from the Citadel across the continent announcing the arrival of Winter. That image had the same impact on me as this one - perhaps because I merged the import of this one with the other.

On 2016-08-13 at 6:25 AM, Llywela said:

It's a strong episode, laying a lot of groundwork for events still to come.

Strangely I wasn't stimulated as much by this episode (to my usual flights of fancy) but that may be because you and Pallas did such a good job drawing out the high points that all I ended up doing was thinking, yes, there's that part and, I see what they were talking about here. There was A LOT of stuff packed into this episode though. I'll go back to my watch-before-I-read method next episode.

On 2016-08-23 at 10:45 PM, Pallas said:

The scene between Varys and Ned is now, obviously, a scene about Varys and not Ned. In terms of Season 1, it's there to give us viewers a glimpse of its hero but in terms of the saga, it's there to reveal more about a major player. "Why does no one trust the eunuch," muses Varys, before noting, "When you look at me, do you see a hero?" Poignant too to see Ned already reduced to set-up man, the featured character who asks one of the leads, "Varys: who do you really serve?" so that we can hear the enigmatic answer we're still uncoiling, five years later. "The realm...Someone has to."

20/20 hindsight has it merits. I still fondly remember parsing these scenes to find meaning and Shimpy and I reaching the conclusion that Varys must have given Ned milk of the poppy (or puppy as we called it then). We had to be a lot more creative back then. But yes, this scene gave us more grist for our Varys speculations in terms of his character. It's weathered the test of time, explaining his testifying for the prosecution during Tyrion's trial.

On 2016-08-23 at 10:45 PM, Pallas said:

Cat's mention of the slaughtered Targaryn children, Robb's taking on the role of his father's savior and Tommen's bitter understanding.  

You did mean Rickon's bitter understanding didn't you? The name Tommen threw me for a bit. I know I didn't see Rickon as having any precognition (or bitter understanding) until episode 10 - in the crypt. I took his response to Bran this time (and it still could be taken that way except we know a bit more) as the stubborn pessimism/fatalism of many children his age. (It will get better. No it won't!)

On 2016-08-23 at 10:45 PM, Pallas said:

Sansa did show her steel in asking mercy for her father from her abominable fiance, before the wicked court. I tend to think that Cersei set up Sansa's intervention beforehand (or why allow it?), in order to allow Joffrey to show himself as a judicious yet gallant king -- to work that story on the court first, before taking it on the road to the steps of the Sept, before the people.

I thought Sansa's intervention was pre-planned with Cersei as well. Otherwise her approving smiles as Sansa hit all the right notes didn't make much sense.

On 2016-08-23 at 10:45 PM, Pallas said:

And then Tywin's beautifully under-played, grim delight when Shagga presents him with the demand that Tyrion be sent into battle, as the price of the Hill Tribes' joining Tywin's force.

Thanks for highlighting this snippet. I even re-rewatched it. I didn't remember it from 1st viewing, but it's priceless.

And that's my stab at this episode for the moment. You provided much more food for thought, but I'm for bed and will have to return another day.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

On 2016-08-24 at 10:00 AM, Pallas said:

He takes on "mercy" with a gimlet eye: that of Varys, who is even dressed like a spider when he drops in to visit poor Ned.

Thinking back to your previous post on this same subject: that this scene was about Varys more than it was about Ned, I realized that even the fact that Varys was dressed like a spider (guardsman) when he went to visit Ned was telling us something about him. He was actually doing something dangerous to himself. Dangerous enough that he had to cloak the fact that he was there. Disguise himself so as not to be recognized. This (as far as I can remember) is unusual behavior for Varys. He's always relied on being honest and open in his movements (at least) and used his way with words to disguise his intent. It almost seemed out of character. It certainly caused our little crew to suspect him even more than we already did.

The disguise makes me think he needed - in some way - to have this conversation with Ned. It was not something his little birds could do. He didn't have any greater measure of the man Ned was than Ned had of him. Whatever it was that motivated Ned to warn Cersei of what he knew, that was what sped up the wheels that Varys had been trying to keep at a uniform pace to maintain stability in the realm until the inevitable chaos that would arrive with Robert's (natural) death. He usually understood human motivation, but couldn't fathom Ned's (although he may have suspected after the brewhaha Ned made about assassinating Dany).

On 2016-08-24 at 10:00 AM, Pallas said:

Now Varys gives it to Ned between the eyes. "Your mercy killed King Robert." I can't think of anything Varys has said to anyone that's as bald, cruel and true. Not to Tyrion, not even when trying to goad him. I think he chooses to deal this blow to the good-as-dead "good" lord from spite mixed with respect mixed with relief that there's no need for politesse between the living and the dead.

I also think Varys didn't have a lot of time himself (due to the clandestine nature of his visit). As you pointed out, there was no need to be polite or circumspect. Ned didn't have time to mull over Varys usual way of getting others to see his point, and Varys didn't have time to weave his usual web anyway.

On 2016-08-24 at 10:00 AM, Pallas said:

Why does Varys visit Ned. A mission of mercy, or to soften him up for the next day's pre-trial negotiations, that Varys thinks will save the realm from this good man's deadly innocence and the Queen's vicious anxiety. I think it's mostly that.

Agree. This second one seems to meet the urgent requirement that brought Varys to meet with Ned himself.

On 2016-08-24 at 11:28 AM, Llywela said:

Ned's brand of heroism got a lot of people killed, including himself, because he isn't living in a romance, because in this story heroism isn't followed by a happy ending, because nothing in this universe could ever be so simple and believing it could be is the kind of naivety that got Ned killed

You'd almost think that Ned was brought up on the same stories that inspired Littlefinger to challenge Brandon Stark to a duel. Except Ned doesn't strike me as one who ever believed in regular fairytales. Except for his "soft heart" towards women and especially children, he was a very pragmatic man - albeit with a rigid moral code that he'd continually battled to uphold. He believed he would not be killed up until he learned that Cat no longer held Tyrion (and it was thoughtful of Varys to inform him that Tyrion was the "wrong" brother). At that point he told Varys to slit his throat right then which led to my favourite Varys' reply (linking to Varys likely knowledge of the reality of Arya's dancing lessons): "Not Today."

On 2016-08-26 at 11:01 AM, Pallas said:

Ned's a man who went off to two wars, helped lead his side to victory in both, and what spoils did he came back with, each time? The young son of his enemy, who he raised as his own or with his own. Yes, one was his nephew and the other a hostage, but still: what were the odds?  Now I'm imagining Catelyn's face fall as Ned rode through the gates of Winterfell, home safe at last from the Greyjoy Rebellion, and beside him, a strange seven-year-old boy...Her greeting: "Was it really that long this time, Ned Stark?"

That punchline is a winner, Pallas. But your lead up points to something I hadn't thought about before. We know and accept that during war spoils are taken. Heck, even in peace someone else's lands are given away to reward loyalty in the present. Take Harrenhal, please. ;-)  Seriously. At the end of this episode Janos Slynt (captain of the City Guard) was given Harrenhal for his treachery to Ned. When we 1st heard of Harrenhal it was headed by Lady Whent so, unless the Mountain took possession of it when Tywin sent him to ravage the Riverlands, it was taken from her by the crown. (Makes me wonder where they were going to get the keep to warehouse Barriston Selmy in his "dotage".) Later Cersei gave it to Littlefinger (I believe after Slynt was sent to the Wall by Tyrion the Hand). I can't help but think there was someone in between, but I can't think of anyone specific.  But back to my point. Others came back from war with booty/spoils and Ned came back with Wards. Nothing else that we've heard of even though I think he let his men take spoils. He really WAS an unusual man. No wonder Varys had a hard time understanding him. Tywin, I believe, would have taken everything of value. We know he acquired and re-purposed Ned's great sword at the very least. BTW, somebody must have got Knifey after Ned was taken away. Tyrion was the next person to occupy those quarters, and then Tywin. Guess we're just not going to know what became of it.

On 2016-08-26 at 11:01 AM, Pallas said:

Ned saw Cersei being continually humiliated by Robert; he saw Robert strike her, in Ned's name; he drew the conclusion that once again -- as with Jon, as with Danaerys -- he was all that stood between her and "Robert's wrath."

I can see this being his only frame of reference. It was how he was brought up and it's how he lived his life. It's why he kept Lyanna's secret even though it sullied his own good name. As to this:

On 2016-08-26 at 11:01 AM, Pallas said:

Cersei asks him, "What of my wrath, Lord Stark?"

Good old GRRM, Ned could not recognize her right to her own wrath, but his daugher, Arya, finally understood it in season 6 and shared that knowledge with the Actress she was sent to kill. I believe we are seeing Sansa own her own wrath as well.

On 2016-08-26 at 11:01 AM, Pallas said:

He does and he doesn't fall into Littlefinger's sexposition snare. I don't think Ned feels that he's so good, he'll enthrall Littlefinger. But I do think Ned believes that not he, but the values he upholds, speak to all men's souls, and have the universal power to uplift them. That a moral compass, calibrated like his own, is not a social construct, but innate. He has to believe it: it's how he's lived his life

I agree with all of this except the bold bit. Ned doesn't have to feel he's soooo good he'll enthrall Littlefinger. It's because Ned holds the values he lives by as being innate that Littlefinger can make him "forget what he knows" and trust Littlefinger. LF knows Ned. He knows his code. He knows how to play to that code. He doesn't put on an act of any kind, just plays to Ned's unshakable beliefs. That's basically the gist of what LF was teaching his new hires.

On 2016-08-26 at 11:01 AM, Pallas said:

I think roughly half of the key moments we witness in Ned's life show him acting against his duty, even his "higher responsibility."

That is both what frustrated so many of us during this 1st season and intrigued so many of us as the story progressed. His shadow loomed large after his death. I believe that the years when he was raising his children in relative peace (even including the Greyjoy Rebellion) were the best years of his life. There were 17 of them, and likely 16 to 18 more as he was growing up. All in all he had a good life with spectacularly horrific episodes that he appeared to come through relatively un-scarred emotionally - except for this last one. He kinda got broadsided by it. :-(

Robert's life ended when he won the Rebellion. I can't help but compare him to Littlefinger. They both lost what they thought was the love of their lives when they were too young to even understand what love really is. Littlefinger at least knew the truth about his loss. He was not loved back. Robert...? I'm sure he and Lyanna must have met, but I doubt he would have accepted that she didn't want him even if she tried to tell him. Both Robert & LF, however, proceeded to try to ruin everything in their path because of their first heartbreak. They never grew up.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Anothermi
clarity

[Pallas]

A beautiful post, Anothermi. This especially --- 

On 8/29/2016 at 10:21 PM, Anothermi said:

The disguise makes me think he needed - in some way - to have this conversation with Ned. It was not something his little birds could do. He didn't have any greater measure of the man Ned was than Ned had of him. Whatever it was that motivated Ned to warn Cersei of what he knew, that was what sped up the wheels that Varys had been trying to keep at a uniform pace to maintain stability in the realm until the inevitable chaos that would arrive with Robert's (natural) death. He usually understood human motivation, but couldn't fathom Ned's (although he may have suspected after the brewhaha Ned made about assassinating Dany).

-- with its image of Varys stumped by Ned's motivation. And then seeking out the source so he could add it to his gallery of human motives. (Yes, I've wondered if Varys is Faceless.)  

On 8/29/2016 at 10:21 PM, Anothermi said:

You'd almost think that Ned was brought up on the same stories that inspired Littlefinger to challenge Brandon Stark to a duel. Except Ned doesn't strike me as one who ever believed in regular fairytales. Except for his "soft heart" towards women and especially children, he was a very pragmatic man - albeit with a rigid moral code that he'd continually battled to uphold.

There are no second sons in fairy tales. Even as a boy, I think, Ned felt that those tales were spun to flatter the Brandons and Rhaegars of this world, and appeal to the multitudes who aspired to be them. Religion though -- in the form of the Old Gods/Nature -- those seem to have been the teachings that Ned absorbed. The Old Gods and a medieval-European code of chivalric honor.

On 8/29/2016 at 10:21 PM, Anothermi said:

Others came back from war with booty/spoils and Ned came back with Wards.

Heh. And it's still a little bit amazing that one of those wards was the Mad King's grandson. 

On 8/29/2016 at 10:21 PM, Anothermi said:

Ned doesn't have to feel he's soooo good he'll enthrall Littlefinger. It's because Ned holds the values he lives by as being innate that Littlefinger can make him "forget what he knows" and trust Littlefinger. LF knows Ned. He knows his code. He knows how to play to that code. He doesn't put on an act of any kind, just plays to Ned's unshakable beliefs.

That's true!  

On 8/29/2016 at 10:21 PM, Anothermi said:

Robert's life ended when he won the Rebellion. I can't help but compare him to Littlefinger. They both lost what they thought was the love of their lives when they were too young to even understand what love really is. Littlefinger at least knew the truth about his loss. He was not loved back. Robert...? I'm sure he and Lyanna must have met, but I doubt he would have accepted that she didn't want him even if she tried to tell him. Both Robert & LF, however, proceeded to try to ruin everything in their path because of their first heartbreak. They never grew up.

Robert Baratheon and Petyr Baelish had exactly one thing in common, and it was everything. Baelish had one advantage: he was no one when he lost the object of his desire. He could hone his crush into a fetish, suppress the fetish into a weapon, and sublimate his bitterness into a consuming ambition. Robert took the Seven Kingdoms and then found that he'd lost what he thought he wanted more. Both men's souls curdled, but on King Robert it looked and felt ignoble. 

Here's a thing. The first time Ned Stark entered the Throne Room, he was Robert's lead commander. On the Iron Throne he found not a Targaryn king but a young Lannister pretender and kingslayer. Cersei alludes to this scene in "You Win or You Die." At the conclusion of that episode, Ned enters the Throne Room for the last time, and as Robert's chosen interim successor. On the Iron Throne he finds not a Baratheon king but a young Lannister pretender, with his mother the kingslayer beside him. A Show does nothing at all to call attention to that piece of symmetry, and it's pretty elegant. 

[Anothermi]

On 2016-08-31 at 9:18 PM, Pallas said:

Here's a thing. The first time Ned Stark entered the Throne Room, he was Robert's lead commander. On the Iron Throne he found not a Targaryn king but a young Lannister pretender and kingslayer. Cersei alludes to this scene in "You Win or You Die." At the conclusion of that episode, Ned enters the Throne Room for the last time, and as Robert's chosen interim successor. On the Iron Throne he finds not a Baratheon king but a young Lannister pretender, with his mother the kingslayer beside him. A Show does nothing at all to call attention to that piece of symmetry, and it's pretty elegant. 

You are so good at sussing out these recurrent parallels in this story, Pallas. I would not have thought of that one without you laying it out like that. Thank you. I need a thread to capture all the parallels - mirrors, as you've sometimes called them - because there sure are a lot of them. (hoping this was intentional by GRRM)

I initially thought you were referring to when Ned was "acting" in Robert's absence, but then I read "for the last time".

However, I can't shake the vast difference between Ned on the throne employing his "Warden of" skills for the Realm compared with, well, everybody else both on the throne and in the North (which is the only place we've seen anyone be a Warden). And I realize Ned was not at his best, what with being overwhelmed by his (justified IMHO) anger/hatred towards the Lannisters. Still, he actually took action related to the well being of the petitioners.

Too bad Thorne hadn't been sent to show his zomboni hand and ask for help when Ned was King-for-a-Day!

Edited September 2, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

Finally catching up to you all...My thoughts in real time as I am watching...

When Syrio and Arya are dancing, and she is complaining that he told her to go right and then he went left, he does this little flourish in his reply, right after he tells her "watching is not seeing, dead girl...", he gets close to her face and says "Seeing, the true seeing, THAT is the heart of swordplay" and as he says that he sort of waves a finger to the side of her face and then in front of her face, almost as if implying that the literal act of sight is not what she needs to know, but rather, an internal sort of innate "sight" and in that moment it hit me like a ton of bricks...THAT is what she drew upon when she fought and won the sword fight against A Bitch in S6.  Alllllll these seasons later, and that one, key essential lesson, gifted to her from her dancing teacher during another life, in another time, when all seemed right in the world - at least to her - she finally conjure up Syrio Forrell and his wisdom as she closes her eyes, says a quick prayer - perhaps to Syrio? - and then blows out the candle and slays A Bitch, because she knows, she remembers, she cannot win this fight for her life by watching A Bitch with her eyes, no, she has to really SEE what is coming and keep two steps ahead. 

As for whether or not Syrio dies? I would like to sit next to Anothermi on this one.  To quote a Dothraki, it is not known.

Aryas first kill, I forgot it was so unintentional, and another child at that...

Ned in the dungeon...I still wonder why Varys wouldn't just help Ned to escape if he can manage to get to him in the first place, but then, Varys has his own plans for the Realm. I remember thinking he was an oily shit this season, funny how much I like the Varys of S6.  Ned, the madness of mercy, indeed Ned, indeed! 

Castle Black...I forgot that they brought back those two dead Rangers into the CB courtyard. Thorne has always been such a fucking dick, hasn't he? good riddance douchenozzle!

Sansa is sooooo young! Wow.  Robb, I love how he takes the lead without backing down. I liked when Theon asked him if he always afraid and when he said yes, Theon says good, it means you're not crazy. So many great little gems that I have either forgotten or they slipped past me the first go round since A Show was so overwhelming the first time. 

Shagga! Son of whomever...Whatever happened to that crew? I seem to remember them in the Lannister camp with Tyrion but not after that. Ive been wondering about them for some time now. are they part of the milk carton gang or do we know their whereabouts?

Bran's face during that scene at the banner men's feast is hilarious, after the guy's fingers get bitten off by Robb's wolf...then they all start laughing? Bran's expression is like "uhhh, hehe, why are they all laughing now?" Poor Bran...even poorer Rickon...

Catlyn, if you lose WE die. No shit lady. Uncle Kevan, after this battle he is another one we don't see until S6, yes?

Annnnd, Joffrey begins his reign of terror...I remember this episode knowing in this episode things were not going to get better where he was concerned. And I just cannot understand why Ned couldn't simply do as Joff demanded and say he was the rightful King, even if only to save his daughters. it's been said already, and better than I could, but Ned's do gooderness just fucked up things for so many people, didn't it? 

[Pallas]

On 9/21/2016 at 9:17 PM, gingerella said:

Ned in the dungeon...I still wonder why Varys wouldn't just help Ned to escape if he can manage to get to him in the first place, but then, Varys has his own plans for the Realm.

And for Varys.  He and his maker truly mean it when Varys asks Ned, "Look at me. Do you see a hero?" By "mean it" I mean, the question isn't only rhetorical. Along with Tyrion, Varys neither looks nor acts like a hero from the old songs, yet by now we know that they are among he saga's protagonists. Freeing Ned is the act of a conventional hero. Or a conventional sidekick. Varys is neither.

A freed Ned means war. A freed Ned is free to lead a Northern army against the Lannisters, at the side of Stannis, the rightful heir. Varys will say it, in "Baelor": Varys wants peace. Peace and stability, as Llywela points out; time for events to baste, and "small folk" saved from rich lords' war. A freed Ned also means an imperiled Varys, and that is no part of his plan either. Varys and Ned differ on whether honor or survival is the greatest good -- or at least when it comes to one's own life. Yet we know how Ned will choose in the end: exactly how Varys would have him choose, and looking no more a hero than Varys himself. One way to judge leaders, if not heroes, is pretty simple -- do they get what they want?