S01.E07: You Win or You Die (Re-watch spoilers)

[Anothermi]

WARNING!!! This thread was created for an Unsullied RE-WATCH after the end of Season 6 and will contain SPOILERS.

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Episode Synopsis: (re-watch version)

Tywin gets KP duty. Luwin learns from Osha. Jon & Sam tie the knot... or at least take vows. Dany abstains from alcohol while pregnant. Robert bested by boar. Ned bested by boors.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

This re-watch is planned for Sunday, July 31, 2016.

[gingerella]

Okay, first impressions upon second watch...

I noticed that they never show Moles Town at the base of Castle Black, I wonder why, just a random observation.

I remember this first time we meet Tywin he is already encamped with a humongous army, I think it's weird on second viewing.  I am disgusted by Tywin's skinning that stag though. It seems too real...if it is, fuck that shit. But I cannot imagine it is real because PETA would be on them like flies on shit, right?!?  I noticed that Tywin says that Tyrion IS a Lannister, IS one of them, and thus deserving of being rescued. In his speech to Jamie about how they will all soon be dead in the ground and the only thing left is Their Name. "The future of our family will be determined in the next few months, we can establish a dynasty that will last a thousand years, or or we could collapse into nothing as the Targaryans did." What a head trip to lay on Jamie, not that he hasn't heard it before, I'm sure.

Cersei offers to send Ned home and instead of taking her up on it immediately, he outright tells her he knows her kids are Jamie's, and something I didn't remember, that he guesses Bran saw them together...and Cersei just looks at him and says nothing. I didn't remember that part of their convo at all. Ned is a terrible player of the game of thrones, Oy! When Cersei says "you win or you die" we didn't know it was essentially Ned's death sentence, and I don't think he knew it either.

That scene with Ros and the other whore...LF says at the end of the scene, I'm not going to win by playing their game with them, I'm going to fuck them...it suddenly puts all his actions that we now know into a different light for me. He quite literally fucked the Stark Family by encouraging Ned to take a trajectory that would lead to war between two huge Houses, he sold Sansa Stark into a torturous situation when I'm certain he know what an animal Ramsey was, I don't remember if he had an overt role in the Red Wedding, but even if not, he still basically sells Cats daughter rot the Boltons, so much for his eternal love for Catlyn Stark. Nope, he fucked the Stark family quite figuratively.  

I will be back tonight to finish watching the rest of this episode...

[Llywela]

I'm trying to remember how I reacted to the twists in this episode the first time around, because on re-watch Littlefinger's sexposition scene with Ros and the other girl so obviously sets up his betrayal of Ned at the end - he practically comes right out and says he's going to do it. But it's still subtle, if you don't know - so many characters talk in riddles and half-truths, the outcome can't always be predicted accurately. And so I'm reminded of how I first watched this first season: with friends, shortly after it finished its run. I hadn't watched the show when it was on - didn't want to, wasn't particularly interested, it just wasn't on my radar at all. But then I had a couple of (online) friends come and stay with me for a week that summer, friends who had fallen for the show hook, line and sinker and were zealous evangelists for it. They brought with them DVDs and told me I had to watch it (we mainlined the whole thing in three evenings, which was intense but also means that much of the nuance passed me by in a blur) - and also, very thoughtfully, refused to tell me anything about it, I think I initially got my spoiler-free stance from them. Although I did, in fact, know one thing about the show going in: I knew that Sean Bean's character died at some point. Despite my lack of interest in the show and subsequent lack of attention to anything about it, I'd found it impossible to avoid knowing that, because it had been plastered all over the media when it happened - the biggest twist of the season and I was spoiled for it before I even considered watching the show! But that's still to come in this re-watch, and I cannot for the life of me remember if I picked up on Littlefinger's obvious duplicity in this episode - I suspect I may have been too distracted by the pornographic backdrop to pay attention to what he was saying! I'd have expected something, the guy is so obviously not trustworthy, but I'm not sure I expected such total betrayal.

Because the season does such a good job of setting Ned up as the stalwart hero we should root for, the one honourable man in a den of snakes, so that even though he is so patently awful at navigating his way through those murky waters, we expect him to somehow prevail anyway, because that's the narrative trope we've come to expect from this sort of fantasy story. The hero always wins, right? And that's where this show got us, because it turns that narrative trope on its head. For all his honesty and honour, the hero of the season is just too rigid, too inflexible, too damn stubborn to survive. He sees the world in black and white and is outplayed by everyone he meets, because they know that this is a game and he doesn't. Poor Ned, too much a Stark to see what was coming, too willing to place his faith in friendship and honour, too willing to trust despite all evidence screaming that he shouldn't, too determined to do the right thing to the very letter of the law to recognise that other options might perhaps be wiser and safer. Poor Ned. If only he'd gone home when he had the chance, instead of allowing himself to be dragged back in. War would still have come, it was inevitable from the start, but still. Poor Ned - and poor everyone else, for everything that follows.

Excellent intro for Tywin - in one scene we understand so much about who this man is and the control and influence he exerts, not just over the country but over his children, adults though they are. And a completely new side of Jaime is revealed also in that scene, his relationship with his father (and affection for his brother, despite paternal disapproval) allowing us to understand his psyche a little better.

Big turning point for Jorah here - receiving his royal pardon with one hand and then throwing it away with the other, as he finally, irrevocably changes sides. I suspect Robert would have laughed his head off at the irony if he'd known that the assassination attempt he ordered on Dany was what finally swayed Drogo into agreeing to invade Westeros, which he previously had no intention of being talked into however much Dany wanted it. In this show, everything links and everything has consequences, often unexpected consequences.

I'm on holiday next week so won't be around for the next episode discussion - happy chatting, folks.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Llywela

[gingerella]

11 hours ago, Llywela said:

Because the season does such a good job of setting Ned up as the stalwart hero we should root for, the one honourable man in a den of snakes, so that even though he is so patently awful at navigating his way through those murky waters, we expect him to somehow prevail anyway, because that's the narrative trope we've come to expect from this sort of fantasy story. The hero always wins, right? And that's where this show got us, because it turns that narrative trope on its head. For all his honesty and honour, the hero of the season is just too rigid, too inflexible, too damn stubborn to survive. He sees the world in black and white and is outplayed by everyone he meets, because they know that this is a game and he doesn't. Poor Ned, too much a Stark to see what was coming, too willing to place his faith in friendship and honour, too willing to trust despite all evidence screaming that he shouldn't, too determined to do the right thing to the very letter of the law to recognise that other options might perhaps be wiser and safer. Poor Ned. If only he'd gone home when he had the chance, instead of allowing himself to be dragged back in. War would still have come, it was inevitable from the start, but still. Poor Ned - and poor everyone else, for everything that follows.

Llywela, I love your entire post but in particular I wanted to say that I really appreciate your thoughtful posts, especially this season. I feel like coming into a new season I get rusty remembering the nuances and details, and as the season progresses I get my posting chops back. So I am really enjoying this entire re watch, even if its just a few of us right now, because it's allowing me to see more deeply all the things that passed me by on first watch, some of it so long ago!

Love your description of Ned and his downfall. We were so expecting him to be a long term hero in this saga and BOOM! He barely makes it through the first few episodes. I thought he was left for dead when Jamie speared him through the leg. After that, I still felt like, okay, he's not dead so he must live long in this story but A Show has no mercy for A Viewer's wishes, and as we have long learned, our favorites usually end up on the pointy end of a stabbity something or other.  We hope that with S6 finished, the tides are shifting for the good guys but who knows who will be left standing. All I know is I was SHOCKED that Ned didn't make it out of S1 alive.

Quote

Excellent intro for Tywin - in one scene we understand so much about who this man is and the control and influence he exerts, not just over the country but over his children, adults though they are. And a completely new side of Jaime is revealed also in that scene, his relationship with his father (and affection for his brother, despite paternal disapproval) allowing us to understand his psyche a little better.

Yup! The contrast between Ned and Tywin is like day and night, literally. Ned goes through life on the choke collar of duty and honor, whilst Tywin runs free like a lion, stealthily hunting down the weak and injured so he can pile them up and stand on them to reach as high as he can. If at the end of the day, Tywin is a piece of shit, Ned is a stupid ass.

[Pallas]

It is still painful to see the trap sprung. Before descending into the fighting pit that is the throne room...

Tywin. Even the dragons don't make a better entrance. We're ready for dragons; for Tywin, we're no more prepared than the poor stag. Or Jaime. Tywin's favorite child gets off one remark ("Poor Ned Stark: brave man; poor judgment") in what he probably thinks is the Lannister style, and Tywin guts him. Tywin is redoubtable, all but impregnable. Yet he's no less obstinate to his own nature than is Ned. As a father or leader he knows only one way to motivate: cut down then rebuild, in his Lordship's likeness. The drill sergeant model. That model doesn't work for everyone, though, and of Tywin's three children, it worked best on Cersei and least on Jaime. 

Since Jaime is dyslexic, Tywin spells it out: respect = fear; honor = vanity. And when he homes in on his theme of family, he first makes sure he has Jaime's attention by reminding him, "Your mother's dead..."  And no less matter-of-factly nor inaccurately, Tywin, "I'll soon be dead..." and summarily dispatching the lot of 'em: "And you, and your brother, and your sister, and all her children..."  He goes on to declare, "It's the family name that lives on. Not your personal glory, not honor, but family." Family = name.

Littlefinger.  

On 8/3/2016 at 5:44 AM, Llywela said:

on re-watch Littlefinger's sexposition scene with Ros and the other girl so obviously sets up his betrayal of Ned at the end - he practically comes right out and says he's going to do it. But it's still subtle, if you don't know - so many characters talk in riddles and half-truths, the outcome can't always be predicted accurately.

It's incredible, isn't it, to think that "subtle" can sidle up to sexposition, yet on re-watch, I actually admired Littlefinger's way with a metaphor. "They know what you are...Your job is to make them forget what they know...." And the pretty astute notion that as the prostitute Littlefinger manipulates the john Ned, the key is make him imagine that "...He's winning you over, in spite of your very nature...He knows he's better than other men. He's always known it; now he has proof. He's so good. He's so good, he's reaching something inside of you that no one else knows is there..." (Is this what Ned believed he was doing with the funny man? I'm not sure, but it's plausible.)

And then finishing with, "She loves him, I'm afraid, and why wouldn't she, after all: who could compare to him? He's just so...good."  Yikes. Take heed, Sansa, in both senses. Years later, with your father dead, your mother dead, her sister dead, can you persuade Lord Baelish that he's winning you over, because he knows, he's always known, that he's better than other men?  And all the while it's you that's reaching something inside of him? 

[gingerella]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 10:00 PM, Pallas said:

Take heed, Sansa, in both senses. Years later, with your father dead, your mother dead, her sister dead, can you persuade Lord Baelish that he's winning you over, because he knows, he's always known, that he's better than other men?  And all the while it's you that's reaching something inside of him? 

Seven hells, Pallas, yes, Yes, YESSSSS. This is so good. And so spot on. We can only hope, cant we? And it would be such sweet revenge and justice if it was Sansa to bring LF to his knees once and for all...for all that he has undone, and for all the hell he has wrought on her young life. Her mother and brother's life, her father's life.

 

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 10:00 PM, Pallas said:

The drill sergeant model. That model doesn't work for everyone, though, and of Tywin's three children, it worked best on Cersei and least on Jaime. 

Isn't it funny that 6 seasons in, we see how much like her father Cersei really is, and he never could see it, no matter how much she tried to show him? It was like she had tits and so could never uphold the family name like Jamie could. And yet, Jamie has failed so miserably in that regard and here we sit, awaiting his redemption, which I'm now thinking will go down as taking out his twin and himself at the same time. No more Lannisters left to carry on the family name. Except...except Tyrion. How ironic would that be? A new Lannister for a New Day, in a New Time. The most maligned by his own family Lannister, who ends up saving the world, and creating a new lineage of Lannisters, that pay their debt...to society.

[Pallas]

On 8/6/2016 at 5:16 PM, gingerella said:

No more Lannisters left to carry on the family name. Except...except Tyrion. How ironic would that be? A new Lannister for a New Day, in a New Time. The most maligned by his own family Lannister, who ends up saving the world, and creating a new lineage of Lannisters, that pay their debt...to society.

Brilliant, g. Paying their debt to society. Tyrion got into practice by paying individual family members' debts to other individuals (acts of kindness to Jon, Bran, Pod and Sansa). "Paying their debt to society" would be expanding his vision beyond irony, as we have already seen him do in counseling Dany. He and Dany leave behind an East where slavery is abolished and self-rule is underway.   

This rewatch is casting new light on Tyrion's role within the story, and his...preeminence?...among the characters. Maybe more than Jon or Dany, or Jon and Dany. Anothermi raised the idea a few episodes ago. It's not that we didn't understand that Tyrion was key, or the author's chief avatar, or -- by Season 2 -- that Peter Dinklage was the lead, but. Not so much his possible preeminence, starting from his position as the golden outlier. 

Yet he's not only an outlier, he's also unique. Alone among the characters, he's gone almost everywhere the story has: from Winterfell to the Wall to the King's Road to the Vale and Eyrie to the battlefields of The War of the Five Kings, Part 1, to King's Landing and across the Narrow Sea to the Free Cities and the East, and back again. Everywhere but North of the Wall (so far). Alone among the major characters, he's met and interacted with nearly every other, except the religious figures (Melisandre and the fallen Sparrow) and the Free Folk. 

Been there, and also, done that. Tyrion is a character out of the Old Songs, and by that I mean, Sinatra. ("I've been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate, a poet, a pawn and a king..."). So far in Season 1 alone he's been a trust-fund vagabond, a casual adviser to the young, and a prisoner. Over the next five years he'll go on to be a soldier, interim Hand to the King, Defender of King's Landing, Small Councillor, prisoner, fugitive, prisoner, slave, Small Councillor again and now, Hand to the Queen. We've seen him as john, lover and husband. Tyrion the self-proclaimed man of the book and not the sword has been on the field for two major battles, in the line of fire for three, and served as main strategist for two; he has fought in the fighting pits, twice killed a man to protect an unarmed woman, and murdered an unfaithful lover and whatever his father was. 

Tyrion is a man of contrasts and many parts: a character who creates his own luck from the luck he was born with. As Tyrion points out, his name kept his father from killing him at birth, then set him up with the money to pay for decent treatment in the world. In return for that good fortune Tyrion is, for someone who inherited wealth, remarkably aware of and candid about what riches are and what they buy. He is a reader, and an adventurer. He ranges from skeptic to realist to believer. By birth he is among the greatest and least of men. He's a thinker, but doesn't over-think: for example, he doesn't second-guess himself about putting his family first -- not because they are good, but because they are his -- twice taking the field against whole-men to defend King Joffrey, of all people. And he comes to understand that as Tywin's son, he must kill Tywin. Just as gingerella proposes that Jaime will realize that as Cersei's twin, he must kill Cersei. Minus the part where he must die for it.

On the road to Volantis, Tyrion and Varys agree that while their acumen is essential to lords and leaders, they will never be viewed as leaders themselves. They inspire no followers: they are seen as repulsive by those who make use of them as well as those who make sport of them. But what if one of the themes of this saga is another refrain of, The old songs didn't say...That the right person to lead a human evolution needn't be young and beautiful, idealistic or pure of heart. Not Unburnt nor Undead, either: simply a survivor, baring his teeth when his life's at stake. 

I'm sure Ned's creator loves him, but it's no coincidence that in the episode before Ned gets arrested, Tyrion escapes certain death by bribing guards and playing the fool while gaming the game, and so, gaining himself a champion who doesn't fight with honor. Both Tyrion and Ned are judged by children, and it's only Tyrion (who has no illusions about children) who knows not to waste time seeking justice or mercy from such a child. People who don't or wouldn't risk their lives for Ned, do risk their lives for Tyrion -- or stay their hands. A Lannister, he has won friends among the Starks, the Martells, the Targaryn and her dragons.

"A new Lannister for a New Day in a New Time." A Show is an adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire. What if this saga's protagonist is the person who, shorn of his own lordship, brings together Queen Ice and King Fire to save the living? A person of reason and passion, who in his own nature brings together ice and fire?

[gingerella]

I love this concept Pallas, of Tyrion as the connection point - well, Tyrion and Varys - being the connectors between Fire and Ice, yes!  Tyrion has indeed been one of the most resilient survivors of A Show, and has gone from an obnoxious, drunk man-whore whose sole life mission was to remain as drunk as humanly possible whilst still being able to schtup whores as often as possible.  He has grown into a character that we are soooo rooting for, who has endured heartbreak and horror, and always risen above the shit his family has heaped upon him.  I think he has show A Viewer that amongst all the long term characters, he has the best acumen of emotional intelligence, and this particular gift has not only kept him alive, it has elevated him to become one of 'The' most important players in A Show. 

I remember being very moved by how A Show portrayed Tyrion's care and compassion of Sansa as his wife, never forcing himself on her physically, and always protecting her in a loving manner, even when Shae got in the way.  I wonder, wouldn't it be interesting, even lovely, if Sansa ended up with Tyrion in the end, in a real marriage of love, of equals, of marital partnership? I think A Viewer would be quite satisfied with that as endgame, for these two survivors. If you think about it, as far as the men in her life go (brothers not included), only Tyrion has ever shown her real love, affection, caring, compassion and respect. Interesting that the Imp, the Half Man, the bane of Tywin Lannister's existence, has such capacity for feeling and connecting to others in a way his sister, his brother and his father never could. Yes, there is a glimmer, a hint of possibility in Jamie's redemption - that is what Brienne brings out from the depth's of his soul, but Jamie is too polluted from a lifetime of Tywin's fetid, rotting affection, to rise from his own ashes (like a phoenix, rising...from Arizona! tm Frank Costanza).  By being the family pariah, Tyrion has in essence, escaped from being subjected to his father's maggot-ridden love. And thus he rises to his full potential, no pun intended...!

Edited August 9, 2016 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

Good to return to such thoughtful posts on this episode.

I think I'll proceed scene by scene - except for the Littlefinger Brothel scene which, at present, deserves it's own post.

- I was surprised to find the introduction of Tywin less powerful than upon 1st viewing. My thoughts on why this occurred (for me) are linked to now knowing more backstory (and story-in-progress) of Jaime. IIRC I viewed him as "cowed" by his father but this time I saw him accepting the futility of any form of parrying with his father. Not to say he wasn't conflicted about wanting his father's approbation, just that he seemed to be cutting his losses. There is no winning over Tywin. Not if you are a family member!

- The Ned / Cersei scene was still powerful, but I found, from the vantage point of post-season 6, that Ned's response to Cersei's story of admiring Robert until the wedding night (where he drunkenly did his duty but whispered the name of Ned's dead sister in her ear) was the most poignant for me. I found the Walter Scott quote leap to my mind:

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

This re-watch I knew that Ned was filtering all his interactions with key players from Robert's rebellion (and before) through the need to protect Lyanna's secret. He couldn't help but relate Cersei's bitter story with Robert's unwarranted obsession with his sister - who did not return his feelings. I now imagine him having to push away a sympathetic understanding of Cersei's choice of her brother over Robert. Hell, this "filter" (as I've called it) may be the ultimate cause of his stubborn adherence to doing the right thing/following the rules in the rest of his life! It certainly would have influenced his decision to stay away from acquiring any position of power other than the one he was born into. Our story actually starts when he breaks from that decision.

Cersei called (correctly) this "lack of ambition" on Ned's part the thing that will lead to his death. Ned is always running from acquiring more power, but refusing to seize the upper hand leaves him - and his family & retainers - vulnerable to anyone else who does go ahead and seize it. Both Renly and Littlefinger presented Ned with the option to take control first and "do the right thing" from that vantage point - with their support. Of course they were motivated by self interest, but I think they were both sincere.  But Ned's en-grained habit of walking away from power - and being a bit suspicious of those who wanted it - was blinding him to what he needed to do to protect those he actually cared about.

- Back at the Wall, I'd completely forgotten that we had the first mention of the NW "blasts of the horn" meaning. Sam is engaging in his favourite topic - girls - and Jon spots the horse returning. Sam is jolted into remembering they are supposed to sound the horn. He seems to have had a book with him as he walks back towards the fire and then says (as if reciting): One for a Ranger returning... Two for Wildlings... Three for (Jon cuts him off by exclaiming that the horse was riderless). I'm glad this was a running joke, because with all we had to take in this season, I would not have remembered if we'd been told all three this episode. I thought the first mention of horn blasts was at the Fist of the First Men (season 2)!

- Robert's bedside scene had another revelation. Joffrey was actually upset at his "father's" bedside. He was still a scared little boy who - if he'd had proper mentoring - might have had a chance to grow. I know why I forgot that scene though. He was such a shit almost immediately, and for so long... well, it's hard to maintain even a shred of sympathy under those circumstances.

Having already thought about the impact of Ned's "filter" in the earlier scene, I noted it in action again in his scene with Robert. He can't tell Robert about Joffrey - not on his death bed - and not considering the impact his sister's "secret" had on bringing this into being, so he passively changes "Joffrey" to "rightful heir". And knowing that he plans to expose the truth after Robert is dead, he can't truthfully agree to help Joffrey be better than Robert. So he dissembles "I'll do everything I can to honour your memory."  Judging by the plays that Arya got to see, Ned may have made Robert's memory even worse! Still, I liked Sean Bean's facial expression when Robert tells him there was no-one to tell him NO but Ned, only Ned. I read that (now) as Ned thinking of all the times he should have told Robert No! Poor Ned.

The last bit of this scene I liked was the juxtaposition of Littlefinger's sexposition of how HE influenced people to do what he wanted them to with Varys' methods. Varys innocently asks who provided Robert with the wine he drank too much of as Barriston Selmy was expressing that he'd failed in his duty to Robert. The answer put "Lannister" in both Selmy and Ned's minds. Then Varys went on to sound solicitous about how dutiful the boy was and hope he doesn't blame himself while we could see the wheels turning in the other men's heads.

- At the Wall I noticed that only Grenn (of Jon's little band of supporters) ended up assigned to be a Ranger. Pip, Sam and Jon were all Stewards, and only Pip a menial Steward (kitchen). Commander Mormont used a new word for the God's Wood/ Weirwood tree. He called it a "heart" tree. I don't think that term has come up again. I'm now interested in where that came from. I also noted that he said there was one a mile north of the Wall, so that puts into perspective why Dead!Benjen left Bran and Mira there. There was about a mile of open snow to the tree line from the Wall. It also explains where and why Benjen left his dead compatriots near that same location. Ghost brought the "hand" to the group attending Jon and Sam swearing their oaths. It was near the Wall, but not exposed. He had to send his horse home to alert them to search for him (and them). I wonder if Benjen knew the other rangers would likely have been "touched" by the WW? I'd assume he must have because he told Bran & Mira he'd been left for the WW poison to do it's work.

BTW, that hand did not appear to be torn off. It had a smooth cut line - like Jaime's. (old TWoP days quibble)

- This last scene truly showed the blinders imposed by Ned's secret. Renly showed wisdom in counseling Ned to strike first and take control so he could fulfill Robert's last wishes. He was correct to point out that while Stannis was the rightful Heir, he was a good soldier and Robert was proof that they did not make good kings. He was also correct that neither the Targaryens nor Robert respected the rules of "rightful heir" when they became kings. Even Littlefinger's arguments echoed Renly's and, under the circumstances, were likely the best course of action. But, as I mentioned above, Ned was now suspicious of anyone not legally claiming power. He wasn't able to react as a Leader, he was just trying not to get himself deeper into the deception mode he already carried. Littlefinger had opined that you had to know who you were in order to know how to influence other men. Ned could not even look at who he was. He could only just keep trying to do the right thing (and failing of course).

This scene may be the last scene we saw KNIFEY. Ned put it in the center of his desk when talking with Littlefinger, and Littlefinger used it to illustrate who the City Watch would obey. One of my favourite lines from this scene was Littlefinger counseling Ned to make peace with the Lannisters, and Ned, holding out Knifey, rejecting the idea because Lannisters were enemies!  Littlefinger calmly pointed out that you don't make peace with your friends, only with your enemies.

Another random observation from this scene. The Stark retainer entrusted with the letter to Stannis was sent by boat to Dragonstone. That makes sense, now, as we know Dragonstone is kitty-corner to Kings Landing across Blackwater Bay. Boat is a lot faster than riding a horse all the way around the bay (as I'd previously assumed because I didn't know where Dragonstone was located). So this guy was NOT a "rider in the night" but a floater or rower in the night. ;-)

 

As mentioned at the start, I'll make another post later on regarding Littlefinger's sexposition scene. This post is way too long already.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

Well, on to the infamous LF/brothel sexposition scene.

Opens on a warm family oriented scene of women doing household chores and children playing among them. I wonder where we are? We follow the water bucket up the wall to discover that we're just outside LF's brothel. Are those women and children somehow related to his business? Not implausible. But LF pauses to observer the domestic scene and then in a symbolic act, shuts it out. He's at work and domestic bliss no longer holds any charm for him - if it ever did.

On 2016-08-03 at 2:44 AM, Llywela said:

I'm trying to remember how I reacted to the twists in this episode the first time around, because on re-watch Littlefinger's sexposition scene with Ros and the other girl so obviously sets up his betrayal of Ned at the end - he practically comes right out and says he's going to do it. But it's still subtle, if you don't know...

This, Llywella! I remember I was still boggled by this new (to me) concept of sexposition and I struggled to pay attention to the script. But Littlefinger is laying himself bare to us as much as the sex workers have bared themselves to us. Only some pronouns/nouns need to be substituted (as Pallas illustrated) to make it clear LF is teaching his over-arching life lesson, perhaps one he learned from running a successful brothel?

"You're not fooling them. They just paid you. They know what you are. They know it's all just an act. Your job is to make them forget what they know. Now that takes time... to ease into it. He's winning you over. (read HE's winning YOU over, not the other way around) inspite of yourself. You're starting to like this. He wants to believe you. He's enjoyed his cock (power) since he was old enough to play with it. Why shouldn't you! He knows he's better than other men. He's always known it deep down inside... now he has proof. He's so good, he's reaching something deep inside of you that no one even know was there. Overcoming your very nature."

When Roz asks, he describes the love of his life (Catelyn, but without using her name) and how she could & did tell him everything. He knows everything about her, including her desire to marry this Northern Lord. He states he lost her to a man with a anvil jaw (square jawed, typically handsome). When further questioned by Roz he adds "she didn't marry (Anvil Jaw) because he got himself killed before the wedding, so she married his brother - an even more impressive specimen - and she loves him, I'm afraid, but who wouldn't? Who could compare to him? He's soooooo (almost chokes on the word) good."

LF states that at one point he thought he could win her because the stories he'd grown up with taught that the little hero always beats the big villain in the end. She wouldn't even let Anvil Jaw kill him because, she pleaded "He's just a boy, please don't hurt him" so LF got a little scar to remember the incident. He goes on:

"Do you know what I learned, losing that duel? I learned that I'll never win. Not that way. That's their game. Their rules. I'M not going to fight them. I'm going to fuck them. That's what I know, that's what I am. And only by admitting what we are can we get what we want."

Roz: What do you want?

LF: Oh.... everything, my dear. Everything there is. (said with steely eyes and no emotion)

So, yes. This explains his behavior towards both Cat and Ned. He gets them together (on his turf), and he provides the answer to their most burning question when even Varys can't (and it rings true to them because it is what they want to believe). So when Cat tells Ned he can trust LF, Ned is willing to believe HER. LF leads Ned to other answers and appears to be helping him by pointing out all the spies - including his own. He's completely truthful to Ned, including that he himself should not be trusted, but by then LF has done his job. He's made Ned forget what he knows. From there on in he can get Ned to do what HE wants, when he wants him to. I believe he was being honest when he laid out to Ned what he should do now that Ned knows about Joffrey and that he would help him do that, but I also saw him closely observe Ned's retainer walk out just before that conversation with a sealed document and could easily figure out what it was. He didn't expect Ned to agree to his plan. He was beginning to enjoy himself. Playing a little game of cat and mouse. 

I think - as we have discussed as the seasons passed - that his statement that Cat was the love of his life, especially as he spoke it in this scene, was just that. A fact, like: I have brown hair. He no longer had any feelings except his bitterness and need for revenge. But he KNOWS that's what he is.

On 2016-08-04 at 10:00 PM, Pallas said:

And then finishing with, "She loves him, I'm afraid, and why wouldn't she, after all: who could compare to him? He's just so...good."  Yikes. Take heed, Sansa, in both senses. Years later, with your father dead, your mother dead, her sister dead, can you persuade Lord Baelish that he's winning you over, because he knows, he's always known, that he's better than other men?  And all the while it's you that's reaching something inside of him?

This is very tantalizing, Pallas. Sansa only seems to have had Septa, Cersei and Bailish as role models. She seems to have learned quite a lot from LF by the time she lied for him after Lyssa's death. But that may have been because he'd gotten HER to forget what she knew. By handing her over to the Boltons he may gone too far. She's still got a ways to go to make LF forget that she told him she hated him for what he did.

[Pallas]

On 8/28/2016 at 7:20 PM, Anothermi said:

I now imagine him having to push away a sympathetic understanding of Cersei's choice of her brother over Robert. Hell, this "filter" (as I've called it) may be the ultimate cause of his stubborn adherence to doing the right thing/following the rules in the rest of his life! It certainly would have influenced his decision to stay away from acquiring any position of power other than the one he was born into. Our story actually starts when he breaks from that decision.

I love your point about Ned's filter, and how it influenced him to double-down on the straight-and-narrow, and also, turn his back on greater prominence. And that our story begins with his choosing (and Catelyn was right!) to be elevated to Hand. 

On 8/28/2016 at 7:20 PM, Anothermi said:

Both Renly and Littlefinger presented Ned with the option to take control first and "do the right thing" from that vantage point - with their support. Of course they were motivated by self interest, but I think they were both sincere.  But Ned's en-grained habit of walking away from power - and being a bit suspicious of those who wanted it - was blinding him to what he needed to do to protect those he actually cared about.

I do see that a little differently. Renly offered his 100 men, but on condition that Ned support him and not Stannis for the throne. Was that ever to going to fly with second son Lord Eddard Stark, who also had fought with Stannis in two wars? Who had from Robert his new title of Lord Protector, on condition of his serving the "rightful heir?" A phase that Ned inserted himself? Littlefinger's offer was even more risible (intentionally, I think): that Ned support Joffrey now, wed Joffrey to Ned's daughter, then overthrow him for Renly if he proved difficult, and dispose of Renly after that, if Renly refused to be ruled by Ned and Littlefinger. I can see why Ned balked at entering into either alliance.

Yet Ned balks even before Renly makes it explicit that his offer of 100 men is quid-pro-quo. Ned balks and kind of blusters: talking about swords drawn in Robert's last hours, and frightened children hauled from their beds. That's where I see Sean Bean suggest exactly what you call Ned's "habit of walking away from power" and his "being a bit suspicious of those who want it." Ned's refusal was a deeply instinctive, "No. Just no."  You really brought that home.

But what if there had been no swords drawn, no children hauled? What if Ned had dodged Renly and Littlefinger and taken his "piece of paper" straight to Selmy, in the first place? Sat down with him -- the equally honorable Commander of the King's Guard; his father's peer -- and explained that he had reason to suspect the Queen of treason, and perhaps a hand in Robert's death? Ask him to have the King's Guard keep the children safe (and "safe"), and arrest Cersei? That would still have meant a war against Tywin's 60,000, but Ned would have been alive to fight it, with Stannis and the forces of the North combined, perhaps joined by other great Houses that did not want to see a Lannister dynasty. 

Ah, but then, Littlefinger was always going to go against Ned, with the City Guard to back him up, and the Lannisters or Renly to reward him. Even if Ned had done the right right thing...doomed. Ned was always destined to fulfill that prophecy from the opening chapters of Dune: "For the father, nothing." 

[gingerella]

Quickly finishing this epi to catch up with you all...

Seeing Benjens horse return alone the second time, was just as heartbreaking as the first time. The mass swearing in was interesting...Sam tells Jon he will be a Ranger and then he is assigned a Steward, I forgot that that asshole dude Alistar was behind that. But in the end it was Jon's fate to be able to learn from the Lord Commander..we didn't know that at the time...I also forgot Pip's story about being molested by a Lord and rebuffing him and that's why he joined the NW. Then Sam says he always wanted to be a wizard, and I think that's what Sam's fate is now...the question is NOW Sam can become a proper wizard when he only just arrived at the cItadel and they don't seem very welcoming there...

When Renly tells Ned they need to take Joffrey into custody immediately, IF ONLY NED, If.Only.  Then LF plants the seed of wedding poor Sansa to Joffs, the whole Stannis convo...Oy.....

I found the scene where the 6 men head north of the wall to the weir wood tee, was very touching on second viewing...the hand...it was interesting how those men seemed unconcerned to walk seemingly unarmed out to the tree...I guess they didn't know what was waking up out there huh? 

Joffrey on the throne, already a little violent shithead freak show. 

once again, I am confused by the throne room scene,just as I was the first time around. So I guess the moral of the story is that Ned should have listened to Renly? And the me. Turned on Ned in the throne room because why? Because they were being paid by LF? 

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

once again, I am confused by the throne room scene,just as I was the first time around. So I guess the moral of the story is that Ned should have listened to Renly? And the me. Turned on Ned in the throne room because why? Because they were being paid by LF? 

Yes. And that point was even made clear in the scene where Ned tried to make his deal with Littlefinger, if only Ned had realised it: the guards will obey the man who pays them, and Littlefinger was in charge of the royal purse. That's why Ned went to him for support in the first place - but his big mistake was in trusting LF when he agreed to give that support. Ned never dreamt for a moment that his supposed ally would double-cross him - but that's exactly what happened. LF promised the support of the guard to Ned, but then gave it instead to Cersei and Joffrey. Because that's who LF is.

[gingerella]

Thanks Llywela! Sometimes I get so wrapped up in certain aspects of A Show, that I forget other aspects and get confused. I feel like you need to watch this shit multiple times to get all the layers and nuances...but honestly, this is the first re watch I've done. Once I watch an epi, I'm usually over it because they can be so emotionally draining to watch the first go round.  I guess I am only up to the job of Squiring here at the Wall. I wish I was Ranger material but I fear I'm not.

[Pallas]

On 9/19/2016 at 7:32 PM, gingerella said:

The mass swearing in was interesting...Sam tells Jon he will be a Ranger and then he is assigned a Steward, I forgot that that asshole dude Alistar was behind that.

Mebbe yes, mebbe no?  I think Mormont -- perhaps advised by Maester Aemon -- deliberately had Jon assigned as (his) steward, for the reasons Sam surmised. Thorne may have recommended against Jon's serving as a Ranger and been mighty pleased to see Jon's dismay, but Mormont got what he wanted. 

On 9/19/2016 at 7:32 PM, gingerella said:

Joffrey on the throne, already a little violent shithead freak show. 

Heh. 

On 9/20/2016 at 5:19 PM, gingerella said:

I guess I am only up to the job of Squiring here at the Wall. I wish I was Ranger material but I fear I'm not.

Wizards come from every service.