S01.E03: Lord Snow REWATCH (Spoilers)

[Anothermi]

WARNING!!! This thread was created for an Unsullied RE-WATCH after the end of Season 6 and will contain SPOILERS.

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Episode Synopsis: (re-watch version)

Starks (or was that sharks?) in King's Landing. Jon's meets his new family. Tyrion is asked to deliver the 1st of many pleas for reinforcements. Bran's faces his new reality. Cat goes to a Cat House. Dany vs Viserys - the game is afoot!

[Pallas]

A song about the old songs. ("Starks have served honorably on the Wall for thousands of years..." "The first man I killed..."  "The war for Cersei's cunt..." "The North cannot be held..." "I am King of the Seven Kingdoms! I do not take orders from savages..."  "The Kings froze on their thrones like the shepherds in their huts...")  I never leaned back: the pace of the story-telling, the confidence and conviction! Everything landed. Wolf, lion, stag, dragon, places and people struck off like verses, and all these variations:

1) Ned (and daughters worse than war) in a dangerous new world, where he knows there are scoundrels and spies. "You're a funny man," he growls at Baelish, a terrific line, his instincts dead-on. Cat seems always to have misread Baelish's character, and too quickly and naively forgives the insult she read for what it was; I'm not thrilled that her role from here-on-in this season suggests the very tired trope of the tag-along heroine who gets the hero into trouble by getting herself taken captive. But then, the reality was that she'd have almost no direct experience of men without the masks they wear with women, of men warring with each other. That's what Arya's gained in her travels.

2) Dany in a dangerous new world, where she begins to claim a role as leader among a people she embraces, with customs she abhors. And spies (she doesn't realize), among those who serve her with affection and respect.

3) Jon in a dangerous new world, where he comes to see that the scoundrels are people with stories of their own. "Examine your privilege," Tyrion advises him (in essence), making it clear he's well aware of the irony. And did anyone remember that Tyrion saves Jon's life, when he's nearly killed by three of his future Watch brothers on his first day at the Wall?

Jaime, who must have hopped off his horse and sprinted into the throne room, so that he can lounge there in wait for Ned, just to get a rise out of him. If Ned were a more permeable man, he might have been struck to wonder, "What in hell does this man want from me?" 

Our and Ned's first Small Council meeting with Varys, Baelish, Renly and Pycelle: I remember my initial dismay at all these new characters to track, and dismissing Varys as oily. His wince when Ned snarled, "Better to pray for the butcher boy." But it was a wince and not a sneer that Ned should be so baldly angry on the boy's behalf; no more graceful than Robert -- no less Northern.  

The amazing scene with Joffrey and Cersei, where she schools him using Tywin's Socratic method and no doubt, his insights about governance. And where Joffrey advances some ideas that aren't half-bad -- even ahead of convention, in a non-psychotic way -- leading Cersei to parry with more Lannister lore and after that, pronounce the Tywin teaching that she swallowed whole, then washed down with a coda of her own: "Anyone who isn't us, is our enemy." 

Ned's version of that: "We must protect ourselves, look after one another..." and the line Jon would echo to Sansa much later: "We cannot fight a war amongst ourselves." 

Maybe the sweetest, subtlest exchange in the whole saga, which still slays me -- Ned to Cat, about Littlefinger: "He still loves you." Cat to Ned, not about Littlefinger: "Does he?" Not even a nod from Ned to indicate he takes her meaning, but she and we know he does. They'll speak of it when next...

The men recounting their first kills, or recalling their first scars: Robert, Selmy, Jaime, Baelish, even Joffrey. And at the very end, Ned, as he watches Arya. 

Okay, I gasped when Syrio the Braavosi said, "This is the Water Dance of Braavos...All men are made of water. If you prick them, the water leaks out, and they die." Could my spitball that the Faceless are made of water, be made of more than spit?

Jon fumes, "They hate me, because I'm better than -- "  "No one," says Benjen. A world where a Snow is a lord, and a lord is better than no one. Almost like a song.

[gingerella]

Uch! That opening scene where they are riding into Kings Landing, I could only think, Nooooooo, runnnnnnnn! Turn around and runnnnn!

That first Kings council was a shitshow, wasn't it? Talk about the man behind th curtain.

When Cersei tells Joffs, The truth will be what YOU make it...wow, and so the delusion begins...Everyone who isn't us, is an enemy...Oy...No wonder that kid was fucked up, incest aside...

When Ned tells Arya that winter is truly coming and we must protect each other, I got this oooEEEooo feeling that Arya will definitely meet up with Sansa next season and help protect her, they will help protect each other because as Ned said, Winter is truly coming."  If only he knew what would happen, maybe he would not have just bent over and taken Roberts proposal to be Hand, nor for their kids to be married. Sort of painful to watch, isn't it, knowing what's coming?

Old Nan!!! Good that scene is great to watch again but I always wonder, we have seen the WWs, the zombonis and their zomponies, but we still have not seen the giant white spiders that Old Nam mentioned in her story...Maybe I wonder about that because I hate spiders! But when Bran tells Robb he'd rather be dead, I thought, honey, if only you knew what was coming, you would probably kill yourself right that minute.

When Ned and Cat say goodbye in KL, it's as if Ned knows he isn't going to see her again. I didn't notice it th first time I watched but this time I did, I wonder why they did that? I mean, the bookwalkers would of course know that, but why would A Show be so overt about that for Unsullied? Hmmm...

Something hit me when Jamie is holding Cersei, sort of against her wishes, and he is saying that he will kill everyone until they are the only two people left in the world...What hit me was that Jamie is the one always saying that to Cersei, but has Cersei ever said that to him, I mean that we have heard her say? I only remember him saying that on more than one occasion.  I can understand why Cersei is having this relationship with her brother, given she has been treated like chattle and in fact Ronert has treated her like utter shit, not only emotionally degrading, but socially degrading as well with his open whoring around and his continued infatuation with the dead Lyanna Stark. So I can understand that she could think she was in love with her brother because they are twins and they are family and he seems to be the only person in the world whom she can trust. But....WHY would Jamie feel that way about Cersei? He is handsome, dashing, a knight of the highest order in the land, he could have anyone, why does he choose his sister? Hi is only disgrace, if you can even call it that, is that he killed a mad king in the back just before said King was about to blow up the entire city and everyon in it. Sure people give him shit about that here and there, but overall I should think he would be able to have any maiden in the Seven Kingdoms so again, what is his reason to be with his twin sister? It's as if this twincest was his idea and she bought into it...

When Robert is talking about his first kill as a soldier, it was a Tarley boy he killed, one of Sam's kin. Funny, he disses the boy for being high born, but wasn't Robert more or less highborn as well?  Weird comment that caught my ear, though I was wondering if his killing a Tarley has any significance to our Sam.

Robert is really a fucking asshole, isn't he? He definitely is not the man Ned thinks he is. Not at all.

That first Dothraki scene, about halfway in, where the camer pans across the tops of high grassy bamboo fields? That was such a gorgeous cinematic shot, another thing that hooked me again, begging me to stick with A Show.

It struck me as strange how cold the Wall and Castle Black appeared when it was essentially Late Summer or Fall at Winterfell. according to the opening credits map, Winterfell isn't that far from the Wall really...

That scene when Jon goes up to the top of the Wall for the first time kills me, I love that scene,more cinematic goodness. Jon is a teacher, a mentor, a mensch. After Tyrion tells him some of the sad sack stories of the guys there, he starts teaching them how to fight, sharing what he knows. Nice guys finish last in A Show so I am even more surprised he is still around! And another "last time Jon saw" moment between him and Benjen and him and Tyrion.  I wonder if Jon will ever see Benjen again, I doubt it because I don't envision Jon going North of the Wall ever again, but if he connects with Bran again then he will know Benjen still lives, sort of.  Speaking of which, I don't think Jon is the same "dead" as Uncle Benjen is.  Jon was killed by the NW, then Mel brought him back to life. To Life.  Benjen was being killed by WWs and before he was able to die the CHoF found him and stopped the dying part, so he is sort of half alive half dead, but I don't think that is the same state that Jon is in. Jon looks alive and normal, Benjen looks half dead.

Syrio Forrell, the dancing master, ahhhhhhhhhhh!

[Anothermi]

On 2016-07-10 at 9:27 PM, Pallas said:

 I never leaned back: the pace of the story-telling, the confidence and conviction! Everything landed. Wolf, lion, stag, dragon, places and people struck off like verses

Absolutely! Everything ties back, everything ties in. The seeds were planted in our minds for us to harvest when the time came.

On 2016-07-10 at 9:27 PM, Pallas said:

"You're a funny man," he growls at Baelish, a terrific line, his instincts dead-on

Yes, but he's not used to second guessing and does it so badly. I thought I noticed LF's voice go from normal to "hoarse whisper" after Ned released his neck grip. I only noted it because Balish speaks with a hoarse half whisper in later, AKA more recent, episodes and I wondered if it was to indicate Ned did damage or was just coincidental. I'll have to pay attention next episode.

I see what you mean about Cat's portrayal (not by Michelle but in-story). Yet she also acted with agency of her own. Still, she was viewed by many of us back then as stupid and/or useless - always doing the wrong thing. I'd say ALL the Starks come across as naive - except perhaps Arya. The perils of believing you should say what you mean and mean what you say.

On 2016-07-10 at 9:27 PM, Pallas said:

Jon in a dangerous new world, where he comes to see that the scoundrels are people with stories of their own. "Examine your privilege," Tyrion advises him (in essence), making it clear he's well aware of the irony. And did anyone remember that Tyrion saves Jon's life, when he's nearly killed by three of his future Watch brothers on his first day at the Wall?

Add that Tyrion models how to use privilege for both self protection, the protection of others and with awareness of the... randomness... of who gets it to use. The lesson is not lost on Jon.

The scenes of these two together are brief, but nothing is wasted. By the time they say goodbye (after Tyrion fulfills his dream of pissing off the top of the Wall) you believe that they have become friends. Fast forward 5 more seasons and I can see that little scene bearing fruit at some point (soon? soon-ish?) after Dany starts to "claim what is hers" - and the WW become a bit of a spanner in the works - as they must, right?

On 2016-07-10 at 9:27 PM, Pallas said:

Our and Ned's first Small Council meeting with Varys, Baelish, Renly and Pycelle: I remember my initial dismay at all these new characters to track, and dismissing Varys as oily. His wince when Ned snarled, "Better to pray for the butcher boy." But it was a wince and not a sneer that Ned should be so baldly angry on the boy's behalf; no more graceful than Robert -- no less Northern.  

I wrote "smarmy" as my 1st reaction to Varys. Either he was testing Ned with his "prayers for Joffrey" or he'd misread him. I find it hard to believe the latter now - after all we've seen of Varys. But he DID wince at Ned's response. Definitely no more graceful nor less Northern than Robert, but I doubt Robert would have spared a thought for the Butcher's boy which is what I think Varys was reacting to. All in all superb misdirection on Varys. We spent all Season - and perhaps a few more - wondering what he was up to and suspicious of him. 

On 2016-07-10 at 9:27 PM, Pallas said:

Joffrey advances some ideas that aren't half-bad -- even ahead of convention, in a non-psychotic way

I made a note of that too! He was aware of his weakness, he had considered how a more effective rule should operate, but he had no one (Robert's fault? or the dynamic between Robert & Cersei?) to give him appropriate advice and training. Only "Tywin's Socratic method" - as interpreted by a disillusioned, unappreciated, bitter daughter. Recipe for Joffreystein!

On 2016-07-10 at 9:27 PM, Pallas said:

"Anyone who isn't us, is our enemy." 

Ned's version of that: "We must protect ourselves, look after one another..." and the line Jon would echo to Sansa much later: "We cannot fight a war amongst ourselves." 

Nice catch. I forgot Jon just recently said that to Sansa. Perhaps Ned had occasion to pass that wisdom on to Jon, too, when he was Arya's age and was angry with Robb?

On 2016-07-10 at 9:27 PM, Pallas said:

Jon fumes, "They hate me, because I'm better than -- "  "No one," says Benjen. A world where a Snow is a lord, and a lord is better than no one. Almost like a song.

Benjen also tells Jon (and Us) "Here... A man gets what he earns... when he earns it." That's exactly what happens. Starting with Jon acting on Tyrion's lesson illustrating why Jon appeared "better" than the others - which gave him the ability to lead when the time came and have others follow, all the way to Edd looking around and realizing that he HAD become the Lord Commander.

Still Favorite Scenes:

- Arya, Needle and Ned

- Old Nan & Bran (noted her "Don't listen to it. Crows are all liars." I remembered that the Free Folk call the NW "Crows". Nan was more in tune with the Old Ways and Lore than most south of the Wall. I think FF also knew Crows are liars. Hee!)

- pretty much all Tryion/Jon scenes (because of Tyrion of course)

- Tyrion/Yoren scene (with Benjen playing the straight man)

- Ned/Cat goodbye scene (as recounted by Pallas above)

- All (too few) Benjen scenes.

- Jorah/Rakharo scene (before Jorah had to attend to his spy duties)

- Arya/Syrio scene (girl? boy? you are a sword!) and of course Ned's face!

 

I'm almost convinced that Little Finger was the instigator of Bran's Knifey attack. He lied to Cat from the get go (well, to everyone), but he laced it with some truth. So he told the truth when he said - "It's mine" and lied when he then said he lost it to Tyrion. That's my story, bastard. <yeah, the circle never ends>

Edited July 15, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

We will speak more when next we meet....

Edited July 11, 2016 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

If only he knew what would happen, maybe he would not have just bent over and taken Roberts proposal to be Hand, nor for their kids to be married. Sort of painful to watch, isn't it, knowing what's coming?

I made note of Ned's response to Arya's question: "How do you let her marry some one like that?" He said nothing, he couldn't answer her. I couldn't help but think his agreement (to the marriage at least) was driven by the guilt he felt at deceiving his best friend for all those years. He still couldn't speak of that complexity - not to someone so young. Not to anyone. Given his straight-forward nature, he spent most of his adult life between a rock and a hard place. He'd promised to live a lie!

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

But when Bran tells Robb he'd rather be dead, I thought, honey, if only you knew what was coming, you would probably kill yourself right that minute.

And it was interesting how it mirrored Jaime telling Tyrion only the previous episode that he rather die than live a cripple. Yet both did live...

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

When Robert is talking about his first kill as a soldier, it was a Tarley boy he killed, one of Sam's kin. Funny, he disses the boy for being high born, but wasn't Robert more or less highborn as well?  Weird comment that caught my ear, though I was wondering if his killing a Tarley has any significance to our Sam.

That "high born lad" comment caught my ear as well. Perhaps it was that Jon Arryn trained Robert and Ned to not "put on airs" for being from an important House and the Tarly boy did put on airs? I'm not actually sure House Baratheon was all that important until Robert became King though. The Arryns were Wardens of the Vale, Starks were Wardens of the North but I don't think we've ever learned if Baratheon's were Warden of anywhere. We just knew Renly was given the Baratheon holdings over Stannis who got Dragonstone. They did have bannermen, so there must of been some kind of title, but "King Robert" kinda overshadowed exactly what.

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

That scene when Jon goes up to the top of the Wall for the first time kills me, I love that scene,more cinematic goodness.

A couple of thoughts crossed my mind during that scene. 1) that elevator sure was rickety! And with only one man pushing the crank to raise and lower it! I flashed back to a scene from Conan the Barbarian where young Conan spend years pushing something similar and ends up looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger (who played adult Conan). I laughed at that because I doubt all muscle groups would get built up with that one repetitive activity! But I'm guessing that the (in story) designers of that elevator understood the power of pulleys!... in great depth. Easy-peasy with that knowledge. (/geek :-D) and, 2) somewhere near the tree line we were shown would have been the Weirwood tree where Jon and Sam swore their Oaths and that, last episode of S06, Bran showed us that Jon was Lyanna's son. I paused and scanned as hard as I could - those leaves are bright red, so should stand out! -  but to no avail. Guess TPTB can blame it on the fog. I say it was an unfortunate "missed opportunity" in a show so chock full of hidden details. <no, no, it's OK... really... I'll get over it...>

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

Speaking of which, I don't think Jon is the same "dead" as Uncle Benjen is.  Jon was killed by the NW, then Mel brought him back to life. To Life.  Benjen was being killed by WWs and before he was able to die the CHoF found him and stopped the dying part, so he is sort of half alive half dead, but I don't think that is the same state that Jon is in. Jon looks alive and normal, Benjen looks half dead.

See, I read that as Benjen was quite dead when the WW stuck him with a pointy end and started the Turning process. That would have been not long after the very 1st scene of the show where we learned (with hindsight) the WW were experimenting, we'll say, with re-animation so it wasn't instantaneous back then. Benjen told Bran the CHoF found him before the WW "poison" had taken full effect, not before he died. The "poison" would have to be the "turning agent" - although the WW haven't had to use it subsequently it seems.  The CHoF revived him by putting the Dragon Glass shard into his heart. If the WW didn't kill him that would have - except for the magic part.  I'm sure Benjen and his co-rangers were dead. The WW don't re-animate living beings. One of the co-rangers actually came to life and attacked Commander Mormont. But that was long enough after he died that the re-created Benjen was able to return both of them to near the Wall and leave his horse with them (my spitball since we learned about Benjen's fate and my memory of something that will be coming up later in this season's rewatch). That would have taken quite a while, yet the zomboni Jon killed with the lantern didn't "reanimate" until after he got back to the Wall.

Jon's un-death was from a slightly different form of magic, but they both had to be dead in order to be revived. Also, remember that Benjen said he couldn't pass the Wall due to the strong magic that kept out the dead. So I just can't agree. Except for the uncertain impact of the magical element, both are the walking dead.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

Uch! That opening scene where they are riding into Kings Landing, I could only think, Nooooooo, runnnnnnnn! Turn around and runnnnn!

The camera lets us see each "named" character in the household, and I bet each of us echoed Syrio: "Dead...dead...very dead..." 

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

When Ned and Cat say goodbye in KL, it's as if Ned knows he isn't going to see her again. I didn't notice it the first time I watched but this time I did,

Acting by actors who know how to act. Sean Bean seems to have been unafraid/allowed to inflect his portrayal with subtext (Jon) or foreshadowing (Cat). This is one element that gave some of us Unsulllied an enormous advantage over bookwalkers in predicting (a few!) (early!) (major!) twists. So that by now we had twigged to the idea that Jon might be the son of Ned's sister and that Targareyn, and halfway through the season we'd feel the bleak weight of Ned's fate. We could literally see how much bigger the story was than one man, even that man, as we zipped from one beautifully realized locale and layered storyline to another, with enough in each to keep us invested or at least, understand that it, too, was crucial: part of a whole.  

But Bean played fair, too. In his scenes with Robert about Lyanna/the Targareyns or last scenes with Jon or Cat, Ned had every reason to be moved by emotions and misgivings that he decanted and expressed the way he did. He could already see that Robert was undisciplined and ruled only by obsessions from the past, or that Jon was heading into a barren world, or that King's Landing was going to take a toll on him before he saw Cat again. With Jon in their parting, along with the bracing words, Bean also sounded an audible note of relief and anticipation: he'd been right to keep the secret, as Robert's visit made clear; nut now, once Jon was sworn to the Watch, he could reveal the secret: Jon would then be as safe as (the former)  Aemon Targareyn. Something to look forward to! Hi-ho, horse: off with me, then!

[Llywela]

Okay, so episodes 1-3 has sent Jon-Tyrion rocketing to the top of my list of characters I want to see reunited, after they've been through so much and changed so much. I also kind of really want for Jon to grab Tyrion by the scruff of his neck and point to a White Walker bearing down on him and yell, "Do you believe us now?!" Funny how dragons are so much easier for Westerosi to believe in than White Walkers - they've existed more recently, I suppose, and left physical remains as evidence, whereas the White Walkers seem to have just retreated into the frozen wastes of the north leaving nothing but bad memories.

Watching these early episodes, I keep longing for various dead characters to see where the living ones are now - like, if only Cat could see Sansa and Jon re-capturing Winterfell together, how would she react to that, or if only Ned could see Sansa and Jon re-capturing Winterfell together, how proud and heartbroken would he be, etc.

[gingerella]

Llywela, YES to your entire post above!

[Pallas]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

Sure people give him shit about that here and there, but overall I should think he would be able to have any maiden in the Seven Kingdoms so again, what is his reason to be with his twin sister? It's as if this twincest was his idea and she bought into it...

A great question, and it's a big story point that A Show's never addressed: when did Operation Gemini begin? I'd always imagined it started at Casterly Rock. Yet thinking about it again...the young Cersei who wanted to marry the Prince had every reason to "keep herself tidy," as the young Diana Spencer put it. Why risk scandal? But perhaps when Rhaegar chose Elia Martell instead -- did she turn to Jaime? Or did the affair begin (or resume) in King's Landing, and only when Cersei's marriage was "irretrievably broken," as Camilla's future husband Charles would say...All we know for sure is that the affair is older than Joffrey. 

But you wondered about Jaime. If the affair began when he and Cersei were young, that could be one more reason Jaime joined the King's Guard: to keep himself unmarried and beholden only to her. That tracks with my view of Jaime as someone else who believed in the old songs, who rejected Tywin's realpolitik and his own role as heir, and who longed to devote his life to both a lord and a lady he loved. And/or, who couldn't be bothered to grow up, fulfill his responsibilities and care for a wife and family. Joining the King's Guard and staying true to Cersei put paid to all that. And very neatly put Tywin's nose out of joint and his legacy in check.

Also, I think each twin wanted to possess something that other had, that they each somehow felt had so nearly been their own, to: Cersei, his sex (not just his gender); Jaime, her will. Two qualities that would have made each of them more like Tywin.

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

When Robert is talking about his first kill as a soldier, it was a Tarley boy he killed, one of Sam's kin. Funny, he disses the boy for being high born, but wasn't Robert more or less highborn as well?  

I noticed that too and watched it again. Robert was definitely scoffing, but he seemed to mean that the boy had been a fool for coming after the unhorsed Robert on his own, instead of sending his lowborn foot soldiers to cut him him down. Trying to be the hero "who ended Robert's Rebellion with one blow." Robert was throwing more shade on the old songs -- the ones with no verses about seeing your opponent shit himself with terror, before you strike. 

Even before the Rebellion, the Baratheons were lords enough to have Robert be a ward of Jon Arryn, and betrothed to the Starks' only daughter. 

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Yes, but he's not used to second guessing and does it so badly.

So true! Over the last nearly two decades as Lord and Warden and father of five-and-a-bastard-plus-hostage, Ned's lost his knack for doubt. In the North, he already knows what he needs to know, or knows how to find out. But this is a Southern city, Cat's a Southerner, and Ned's only here because he believes that the friendships of youth are to be honored. He's already worried that he's wrong about Robert; he doesn't want Cat to be wrong too.  

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I'd say ALL the Starks come across as naive - except perhaps Arya. The perils of believing you should say what you mean and mean what you say.

And yet...House Baratheon is gone; House Bolton is are gone; House Martell is gone; House Frey is hanging on by a cable; the Tyrells' new words are, "Mrs. Peel: You're Needed" and the Lannisters are reduced to the middle generation: Tyrion in exile, Jaime in despair, and Cersei -- childless and mad -- no one's pick to rule much longer than either of her sons. Meanwhile House Stark holds Winterfell and Ned's four surviving children boast a seer, a Faceless Teen, a steely supermodel-strategist and a resurrected bastard proclaimed King, three of whom have taken on the job of saving life on earth. The Winter is Coming crowd seem made for the long game. 

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

The scenes of these two together are brief, but nothing is wasted. By the time they say goodbye (after Tyrion fulfills his dream of pissing off the top of the Wall) you believe that they have become friends. Fast forward 5 more seasons and I can see that little scene bearing fruit at some point

"When I last saw the King in the North, he was a friendless shivering boy marooned at the edge of the world, with no title, no name, and not one dragon...yet I believed in him, as well."  

20 hours ago, Anothermi said:

All in all superb misdirection on Varys

Damn straight. 

20 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Benjen also tells Jon (and Us) "Here... A man gets what he earns... when he earns it." That's exactly what happens. Starting with Jon acting on Tyrion's lesson illustrating why Jon appeared "better" than the others - which gave him the ability to lead when the time came and have others follow, all the way to Edd looking around and realizing that he HAD become the Lord Commander.

Yes! And on his own, Jon reached Benjen and Tyrion's conclusion about the Free Folk: that the Wall separated humanity from itself, not some other, lesser species. "Better than no one."

18 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I made note of Ned's response to Arya's question: "How do you let her marry some one like that?" He said nothing, he couldn't answer her. I couldn't help but think his agreement (to the marriage at least) was driven by the guilt he felt at deceiving his best friend for all those years.

And Robert stuck at court for 20 years in a pride of Lannisters! Ned would have agreed to anything to get out of that crypt -- "Charades after dinner? A costume revel tomorrow?"-- but the idea of joining their families had its charm, and was all that any good father could have hoped for Sansa. Even if Ned took one look at Joffrey as he rode into the courtyard at Winterfell, and thought of Jaime on the Iron Throne.

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Jon's un-death was from a slightly different form of magic, but they both had to be dead in order to be revived. Also, remember that Benjen said he couldn't pass the Wall due to the strong magic that kept out the dead. So I just can't agree. Except for the uncertain impact of the magical element, both are the walking dead.

But Jon -- while also stabbed through the gut and the heart -- wasn't killed by a Walker with an ice sword, nor sprinkled with loathsome "turning agent." (Those sons of Rickard died young and died hard, dammit.) He's still prettier than Tormund's nieces, and the Wall didn't seem to have a problem with him. So I sense he's a lot less dead than Benjen. Still, we don't know what he's lost. Maybe he can't sire a child?  

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

that elevator sure was rickety! And with only one man pushing the crank to raise and lower it!

"Goynupp."

[Anothermi]

11 hours ago, Pallas said:

Robert was definitely scoffing, but he seemed to mean that the boy had been a fool for coming after the unhorsed Robert on his own, instead of sending his lowborn foot soldiers to cut him him down

That was certainly part of his meaning. But I just realized that would mean Robert's 1st actual "Kill" was during the Rebellion. I guess the training Jon Arryn gave them was very high caliber. Add to that the audacity of youth and, of course, he and Ned would declare and lead a war! 

From the sounds of the discussion, Jaime was more "experienced" than Robert - at a younger age, and certainly before the Rebellion. Selmy remarked that Jaime was 16, and just a squire, when he 1st killed a man (presumably that was why he was able to join the elite Kings Guard at a young age - but we don't know how soon after). Puts his attitude towards Jon Snow into perspective. Pallas guestimated Jon's age to be about 16 when we first met him and Jaime subtly mocked him for not having actually "used" his sword yet.

11 hours ago, Pallas said:

Even before the Rebellion, the Baratheons were lords enough to have Robert be a ward of Jon Arryn, and betrothed to the Starks' only daughter. 

Yes, which is why I find it strange that we've never been told Lords of (what?). Renly became the next Lord of (?) when Robert became King (and Stannis got the honour of becoming the Lord of the Rocky Outpost). Although there must always be a Stark at Winterfell, it appears not to be true of many other seats of Power. Renly lived at King's Landing, as did most of the Lannisters and the Arryns and later on, most of the Tyrells.

But back to this "high born" dig. I'd always thought of the Tarlys as middle level status - since they are bannermen to the Tyrells - but by the look of Sam's family home (!!) I get a different impression. It still seems odd that Robert would put the Tarly boy down by calling him "high born" OR because he didn't let lower born men do the fighting. Robert was highborn AND also inexperienced in war but was on the front lines. He was just better than the Tarly - or more motivated. The only rationale I could come up with (see up thread) was that Robert felt the Tarly boy seemed to convey that he was superior in some way. (That does ring somewhat true from what we've seen of Sam's father. He was willing to kill his own 1st born son for not being a good enough warrior to inherit "his" title -  if he didn't "take the black". Almost makes Tywin look compassionate! He let Tyrion roam around drinking and whoring to keep him away from home.)

11 hours ago, Pallas said:

Meanwhile House Stark holds Winterfell and Ned's four surviving children boast a seer, a Faceless Teen, a steely supermodel-strategist and a resurrected bastard proclaimed King, three of whom have taken on the job of saving life on earth. The Winter is Coming crowd seem made for the long game. 

And it's taken 6 long years of our lives before the long game hove into view. They may have been naive, but that ingrained honesty and respect for others certainly has held them in good stead - even though all but Bran had to lie, cheat and steal (as it were) to stay alive (OK, he could warg, but came by that honestly - I think).

11 hours ago, Pallas said:

On 2016-07-11 at 1:50 AM, Anothermi said:

that elevator sure was rickety! And with only one man pushing the crank to raise and lower it!

"Goynupp."

Hee! "Next stop... 1st ... floor... Ice, wind and fire... and washrooms."

Edited July 12, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

Ahhh, it feels good to discuss some of these more meaty things that feel like a series of pink elephants that keep wandering in and out of A Show.

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 1:50 AM, Anothermi said:

We just knew Renly was given the Baratheon holdings over Stannis who got Dragonstone.

Sorry, I remember that Stannis oversaw Dragonstone, but what holding did Renley have? Also, I always assumed that Dragonstone was once the holding of Targs simply because of its name, do we know that or not?  If the Targs did come from across the Narrow Sea originally, and they landed at Dragonstone, with their dragons, then why wouldn't that area be under their domain so to speak. It seems like all the Houses involved in running Westeros have "home bases" so I'm wondering why and how Dragonstone came to be under a Baratheon, unless it's simply that when the Mad King was killed and Robert started killing all the remaining Targs, he gave his brother Dragonstone as a gift of war spoils? Or do we already know this (you guys know I'm always late to A Show's parties..).

13 hours ago, Pallas said:

I noticed that too and watched it again. Robert was definitely scoffing, but he seemed to mean that the boy had been a fool for coming after the unhorsed Robert on his own, instead of sending his lowborn foot soldiers to cut him him down.

See, to A Viewer, this is rather heroic, albeit stupid if he's not all that as a soldier but still, most men (looking at that sniveling shitball, Ramsey) of higher born ranking would likely sit on the fringes of the battlefield and not risk getting injured or killed but this Tarly boy didn't send his lower born henchmen, he led the charge himself. I'd call that bravery to be honest.  Yet Robert seems to never see things as they are, but rather in a way that seems to always paint him as the victim. He was a victim of this high born lad, he had to cut him down with ferocity because that high born lad put him in that position, how dare he!  Robert is also a victim of being told he is the next King. "Oh gosh golly, I really didn't want to BE the King, just fight against the Mad King...blah blah blah...But...Oh goodie, now I can drink and whore around to my hearts content!"  Poor Robert. His wife bears him a son who dies, woe is Robert! His wife is a shrew and he has to find comfort in the arms of whores, poor him! The love of his life was kidnapped and murdered, poor him, his life will never be filled with real love! The list goes on and on for him doesn't it? I didn't see it before, but I see it now, Robert is really a narcissist, and I don't think Ned realized that in their youth together. He probably came off as pompous and hot headed back then, but Ned didn't have the life experience to see him for the narcissist he really was and still is. It's all about Robert all the time. All ways, always. No wonder Cersei was miserable as shit with him.

2 hours ago, Anothermi said:

From the sounds of the discussion, Jaime was more "experienced" than Robert - at a younger age, and certainly before the Rebellion. Selmy remarked that Jaime was 16, and just a squire, when he 1st killed a man (presumably that was why he was able to join the elite Kings Guard at a young age - but we don't know how soon after). Puts his attitude towards Jon Snow into perspective. Pallas guestimated Jon's age to be about 16 when we first met him and Jaime subtly mocked him for not having actually "used" his sword yet.

Actually, I heard that as a double entendre of sorts. I thought Jamie was needling Jon (no pun intended!) about not using his sword, both the one sheathed by his side, and the one in his pants...because Jamie had sort of smirk on his face when he was talking to Jon, so I thought he was suggesting "duuuude, do you realize you cant fuck women now, like, ever?!? Jeez, what a dolt his guy is!" I didn't get it that overtly first time I watched, but this time around I saw that. Maybe I'm seeing things...;)

Edited July 12, 2016 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

It seems like all the Houses involved in running Westeros have "home bases" so I'm wondering why and how Dragonstone came to be under a Baratheon, unless it's simply that when the Mad King was killed and Robert started killing all the remaining Targs, he gave his brother Dragonstone as a gift of war spoils?

I'm not sure if we learned it this season or next (when we first meet Stannis) but from my memory:

Dragonstone was where the Targs first touched down (I'm pretty sure I address this in an earlier thread). It became their home base. From there they conquered Westros House by House, Keep by Keep. This analysis comes from the way the Big Boring Tome gave dates of birth (I'm still looking for my old post on this) of the Houses covered by the pages I could freeze frame on.

IIRC Robert ordered Stannis to defend their family seat, which was under siege. We know this because Davos was called the Onion Knight due to risking his life to bring stolen onions to the Keep - he lost his fingers for smuggling the onions and then was knighted for saving them because: Stannis!. (Come to think of it, that would mean the Baratheon Keep would have had to be located near the coast, wouldn't it?) Stannis held that place - whatever it's name is - until Robert won the war. Robert became King and Stannis, as second son, should have become Lord of (unnamed) Baratheon "home base" but Robert passed over him and gave the title to Renly, the youngest. Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone as it was now unclaimed (due to the death (or escape) of all Targs from Westeros - Aemon didn't count as he couldn't own lands or sire children by law. I got a strong impression that Stannis saw this as a demotion. I suspect Robert saw it as a shrewd move because Dragonstore is a strategic coastal location and Stannis was an renouned military strategist.

Hope that helps.

[Pallas]

9 hours ago, Anothermi said:

 I just realized that would mean Robert's 1st actual "Kill" was during the Rebellion.

I was also very surprised that Robert had not killed before the war. Then again I suppose it makes sense: why would he have, if not in a tournament or a training accident? Which probably would have deprived us of Ned. 

9 hours ago, Anothermi said:

From the sounds of the discussion, Jaime was more "experienced" than Robert - at a younger age, and certainly before the Rebellion. Selmy remarked that Jaime was 16, and just a squire, when he 1st killed a man

And then there was Jaime's utterly sincere, "Best move I ever saw," to Selmy -- that naked admiration of the much older man, and what I see as an equally naked plea for his approval.  

9 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Yes, which is why I find it strange that we've never been told Lords of (what?).

I think we have, and I think it used to be up on the Character Index, but that's necessarily been edited so many times, the Baratheon segment is truncated (like the line). Robert probably expositions it to (us) Ned later in the season, when he talks about how he shortchanged Stannis and never loved either brother. I'm sure Stannis mentions it later, too.  

9 hours ago, Anothermi said:

But back to this "high born" dig. I'd always thought of the Tarlys as middle level status - since they are bannermen to the Tyrells - but by the look of Sam's family home (!!) I get a different impression. It still seems odd that Robert would put the Tarly boy down by calling him "high born" OR because he didn't let lower born men do the fighting.

You're right: Robert definitely did pronounce "high-born," both times, as he did "Lancel Lannister." More than is warranted by the high-born Tarley's trying to do his own killing. Maybe a bad choice by Mark Addy?  A misread? Or perhaps King Robert in his later years flirted with becoming a republican? He certainly gave himself reason...

But I think Robert's point was that he's long past believing in heroics. Old song stuff. Now it just looks foolish to him, the cockfighting among young bloods, a youth with every advantage getting himself hammered to death, because he took on a dismounted adversary solo, and on foot. (In that, Robert is like Tywin, who sneered at Jaime for not finishing off Ned after Jaime's man hobbled him.) Though then, in a fine turn of writing, Robert goes on to detail all the disillusionments of age that young Tarley got to miss...

9 hours ago, Anothermi said:

"Next stop... 1st ... floor... Ice, wind and fire... and washrooms."

I wonder which man of Night's Watch warged back in time to set poor Goynupp treading his lonely circle in the slush...Could it have been the Stark last heard to be "going down"?

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

I'm wondering why and how Dragonstone came to be under a Baratheon, unless it's simply that when the Mad King was killed and Robert started killing all the remaining Targs, he gave his brother Dragonstone as a gift of war spoils?

That's it, exactly. And Robert gave Renly -- the youngest brother -- the Baratheon seat, Come Stag, along with its castle, lands, peasants and income. That's how Smoke Babies get conceived.

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

Yet Robert seems to never see things as they are, but rather in a way that seems to always paint him as the victim. He was a victim of this high born lad, he had to cut him down with ferocity because that high born lad put him in that position, how dare he!  Robert is also a victim of being told he is the next King. "Oh gosh golly, I really didn't want to BE the King, just fight against the Mad King...blah blah blah...But...Oh goodie, now I can drink and whore around to my hearts content!"  Poor Robert. His wife bears him a son who dies, woe is Robert! His wife is a shrew and he has to find comfort in the arms of whores, poor him! The love of his life was kidnapped and murdered, poor him, his life will never be filled with real love! The list goes on and on for him doesn't it?  I didn't see it before, but I see it now, Robert is really a narcissist, and I don't think Ned realized that in their youth together. 

Brilliant. He is a self-pitying drunk -- speaking from experience, I think most drunks are self-pitying first -- and yes, a narcissist. So's Cersei; it's all they have in common...other than their lifelong wealth and prestige. As Tyrion would say: "If you're going to be a moral cripple, it's good to be a rich one."

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

Jamie had sort of smirk on his face when he was talking to Jon, so I thought he was suggesting "duuuude, do you realize you cant fuck women now, like, ever?!?

Yup. Same point as Benjen, just not...Benjen. 

[gingerella]

These rewatches are interesting in how we either see characters in ways we didn't the first go round, or we see them similarly but there is a depth that we see now and their words are more intense/chilling/harbinger of things to com, etc. I guess this might be what it's like for bookwalkers the first time they saw A Show, then again, they probably know so many more  details than we do so they can fill in the blanks and probably know stuff like where the Baratheon Keep was, etc.

[Anothermi]

LOL Pallas, you are on a roll. Good thing I wasn't drinking anything when I read your post:

43 minutes ago, Pallas said:

why would he have, if not in a tournament or a training accident? Which probably would have deprived us of Ned.

 

43 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Maybe a bad choice by Mark Addy?  A misread? Or perhaps King Robert in his later years flirted with becoming a republican? He certainly gave himself reason...

 

43 minutes ago, Pallas said:

I wonder which man of Night's Watch warged back in time to set poor Goynupp treading his lonely circle in the slush...Could it have been the Stark last heard to be "going down"?

 

43 minutes ago, Pallas said:

And Robert gave Renly -- the youngest brother -- the Baratheon seat, Come Stag, along with its castle, lands, peasants and income. That's how Smoke Babies get conceived.

OK. This one is priceless. Still holding my sides.

43 minutes ago, Pallas said:

As Tyrion would say: "If you're going to be a moral cripple, it's good to be a rich one."

Hope you'll be on the bill next week! AND you managed to make some pithy points as well - my favorite being the ongoing saga of the "old songs".  Kudos.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

it feels good to discuss some of these more meaty things

Speaking of meaty things (Hee! Pallas made me do that) -

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

Actually, I heard that as a double entendre of sorts.

It was difficult not to, especially 'cuz Benjen had danced around the issue one episode earlier. I'm sure Jaime was meaning that when he first spoke BUT, he went directly on from that to say: "Strange thing, first time you cut a man... you realize we're nothing but sacks of meat, blood...some bone to keep it all standing."

Then he goes into serious mocking mode about how "important" the Nights Watch is to everyone: "Let me thank you ahead of time for guarding us all from the perils beyond the Wall. Wildlings and White Walkers and whatnot <Grumpkins and Snarks implied?>. We're grateful to have good, strong men like you protecting us."  then starts to walk away. 

Jon knows he's being mocked - but not why, and throws out: "We've guarded the Kingdoms for 8000 years."

Jaime can't resist: "Is it WE already? Have you taken your vows then?"

Jon: "Soon enough."

Jaime: "Give my regards to the Nights Watch. I'm sure it will be thrilling to serve in such an elite force, and if not.... It's only for life." <superior grin>

I think Jaime was less teasing about Jon's virginity (who's HE to talk, he's only had one woman!) and more Jon's naivety (Starkness).

Edited July 13, 2016 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

On 2016-07-12 at 8:02 PM, Anothermi said:

I think Jaime was less teasing about Jon's virginity (who's HE to talk, he's only had one woman!) and more Jon's naivety (Starkness).

OK, quoting myself here, but I have further thoughts on this...

Perhaps Jaime isn't just ribbing Jon for his naive beliefs, but speaking FROM his knowledge that pure and noble as those beliefs/expectations are, they are just a delusion. Jaime himself loved being a swordsman and I could see the young squire Jaime - just 16 years old, like Jon, wanting to make a name for himself (perhaps a bit like Pod? - except for the part where Pod was low-born, serving Tyrion, and didn't get any external recognition for being a squire who saved his Lord). He killed an outlaw. We don't know the circumstances, but we know Selmy was impressed enough to remember. Of course it would mean a LOT to Jaime that Selmy took notice, Selmy was the epitome of a text-book Kings Guard. Hell, it may have been the last "pure & noble" kill Jaime ever made? (<spitball) He impressed enough to be inducted into the knight's "Hall of Fame" - The Kings Guard. Only after that did he learn his job wasn't to Do-The-Right-Thing! but to follow orders that contradicted both the oath he had taken (OK, I'm extrapolating the the Kings Guard oath is as grand or grander than the Nights Watch oath) but also most other behaviours that are expected of decent men. (Child killers/torturers - like Meryn Trant - were members of the Kings Guard!) Barristan Selmy may have been the last honorable Kings Guard. Mostly because he may never have been given an order to do something he couldn't justify in his heart of hearts. (stay with me here) We know that Jaime has pretty much given up on being honourable and living up to his vows. He told Catelyn there were too many rules and they contradicted each other. You couldn't live without breaking some rule, or expectation or belief -  so he came to the conclusion... why even try? Even his "The things I do for love" is an echo of the impossibility of doing-the-right-thing when I view it from this perspective.

So, that's the long story of my thought that Jaime could have been trying (in his not!tyrion way) to prepare Jon for the bitter disappointment he was about experience. Not that he was doing it good heartedly...no, he was still too bitter at his own disillusionment to do that. He was speaking about himself as much as Jon and casting them both as dupes (without cluing Jon in). It was a mean thing to do, but in hindsight I can see a deeper experience behind his behaviour. I think this also explains why he respects Brienne. He pegged her as another "dupe" and she proved to him she was the real deal.

 

And now on to frivolous things that I noticed on re-watch but fit into the category of interesting-things-that-probably-have-no-relevance-to-anything (like astrolabes and elevators). Just throwing these out there:

1-Scene - the Stark convoy entering the gates to Kings Landing. Man! Did they look out of place. Everyone else is in bright colours - bright reds and yellows. The Starks? Shades of black from... black... to grey or bluish grey (greyish blue?) <ok, move on, nothing else to see here>

2-Scene - Ned encounters Jaime in the Throne Room. I'd forgotten that the decor used to be vines encircling the columns. And the stained glass window looks warm, welcoming even <I couldn't make out the details so it could have been people burning for all I know. It just felt warm and welcoming - I liked it.> I'd recently seen the scene where Cersei slaps Joffrey (for the last time) and Joffs was re-decorating the Throne room. He told her (before the slap) that he was restoring it to the former glory of the Targs. So I wondered who decreed it should be all viney and warm? Not Robert surely! He wouldn't even notice if it were changed. I thought perhaps Cersei? but bucolic she is not. So I'm leaning toward Renly as motivating force for the viney theme. <next!>

3-Scene - Cersei poisoning, uh, counseling Joff on perception and "women". Again with hindsight I was most shocked that Cersei pushed him to treat Sansa the way Robert treated her! Since I've just written at length about what pushed Jaime to be so mean to Jon, I guess I can attribute similar motives to Cersei. "That's what Queens get. Only a fool would think being a Queen is anything but being a breeder (like she was). No better than a cow or a bitch (dog)."

4-Scene - Cat & Roddrick (sideburns tied under the chin guy) arriving at Kings Landing Gates. In the foreground there is a man dressed like Illyrio (red sleeveless robe covering an off-white tunic) leaving the city. He is holding a scroll. I presume he, too, is a Magister? There were a LOT of them attending Danerys' and Drogo's betrothal ceremony (such as it was). I just noticed the "uniform" this re-watch so was surprised to see the same thing in Westeros. He was just an extra, but was a point being made? This show has proved it will hide information in a scene that can not be understood until (much) later. Is this one of those?

5-Scene - The Wall.  Jon handily defeating recruit after recruit that Thorne has come at him. I can't remember if I thought this on 1st viewing, but I laughed this time when Throrne said: "Well Lord Snow, it appears you're the least useless person here." Like an offer you can't refuse - it is praise you can't accept. ;-)

6-Scene - Ravengram of Bran being awake and able to talk starts at the Wall. Commander Mormont - who knows it's contents - passes it to Tyrion to deliver it to Jon. Scene change to Throne Room where Paycelle gives Ned the ravengram he received that morning. As Ned is reading it Littlefinger approaches and asks if it is good news and without waiting for an answer tells Ned his wife is in Kings Landing and will bring him to her to "share the good news". Back to the Wall and Tryion arrives as Pyp, Grenn (and Rast ptui) are menacing Jon. He delivers his "life lesson" (Jon is a privileged bastard) and then tells Jon he has got a ravengram for him from Winterfell and tells Jon it's contents before giving it to him. Skip back to Kings Landing and Cersei is yelling at Jaime about Bran being awake and what if he tells! Comprehensive lesson: If you have a secret? Don't share it by ravengram unless you want the world to know. (foreshadowing Ramsey sending ravens to say his father was killed by whomever he chose to blame. (I forgot who). And last random noting;

7-Scene - Mormont and Aemon try to impress upon Tyrion the urgent need for more men, more supplies, more everything for the Nights Watch due to the "looming but currently unknown" danger. Aemon asks Tyrion how many winters he's lived through. Tyrion says 8, - 9 counting the 3 year winter when he was born. Even if Tyrion is 30 years old (at one point we calculated Jaime and Cersei would be mid 30s) that would be a winter every 3.3 years. They also noted that the current summer (that apparently Bran was born in as Old Nan called him "sweet summer child") had lasted 9 years so far.  <FYI>

That's it I think.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

13 hours ago, Anothermi said:

7-Scene - Mormont and Aemon try to impress upon Tyrion the urgent need for more men, more supplies, more everything for the Nights Watch due to the "looming but currently unknown" danger. Aemon asks Tyrion how many winters he's lived through. Tyrion says 8, - 9 counting the 3 year winter when he was born. Even if Tyrion is 30 years old (at one point we calculated Jaime and Cersei would be mid 30s) that would be a winter every 3.3 years. They also noted that the current summer (that apparently Bran was born in as Old Nan called him "sweet summer child") had lasted 9 years so far.  <FYI>

Yeah, I noticed this too and my continuity radar pinged loudly, it doesn't really add up does it? If Winter is so rare then how could Tyrion have already lived through 9 of them?!  Come on A Show, get your shit together man!

Also, since Robert hated the Targs with the fire of a thousand suns and wanted all of them dead, why didn't he have Aemon killed too? I know Aemon cannot reproduce because he is both a NW guy and he's old as dirt but still, I wonder why Robert didn't have him killed off too...

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Also, since Robert hated the Targs with the fire of a thousand suns and wanted all of them dead, why didn't he have Aemon killed too? I know Aemon cannot reproduce because he is both a NW guy and he's old as dirt but still, I wonder why Robert didn't have him killed off too...

I think because being in the Night's Watch protects him. He is no longer part of the world, renounced all family ties, etc. All of which is exactly why Ned must have encouraged Jon to go to the Wall as well, and why he only promised to talk to Jon about his mother after he'd gone to the Wall and taken his vows, because once there Jon would be under the same protection as Aemon and thus safe, even if the truth came out.

[gingerella]

Llywela, is that a guess? Because I don't remember anything actually being said like that, but maybe I missed it?

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

Also, since Robert hated the Targs with the fire of a thousand suns and wanted all of them dead, why didn't he have Aemon killed too? I know Aemon cannot reproduce because he is both a NW guy and he's old as dirt but still, I wonder why Robert didn't have him killed off too...

To add to what Llywela said, I think that even back then the Nights Watch wasn't given much thought by those who lived in the South. IF Robert knew that Aemon was a Targ - and I'm not sure he did - what he should know, as Ned's best friend - was that if he tried to bring "the King's justice" upon a member of the Nights Watch he would end up having to fight all of the North - including Ned! But it's probably that the Wall and it's inhabitants seem, to the rest of Westeros, to be more a place where all the unwanted and crazy folks go. More of a prison than a protection.

6 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I don't remember anything actually being said like that, but maybe I missed it?

Ned didn't tell Jon what the Nights Watch has become. Since the end of S06 and confirmation that Lyanna was Jon's mother and Rheagar was most likely Jon's father, a few posters here have spitballed that was because Ned knew he would be safe from Robert and his "kill all Targs" mania once he joined the Watch. Beyond the pale so to speak. Made sense to me. 

Every thing we've see of the Nights Watch is that they are a world apart from everyone. All their pleas for support and warnings of danger have fallen on deaf ears. Even the Boltons, as Wardens of the North, didn't take them seriously. Ramsey's only concern was the Wildlings ... and Sansa teaming up with Jon.

[gingerella]

Got it, sort of like forced prison...

[Llywela]

30 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Llywela, is that a guess? Because I don't remember anything actually being said like that, but maybe I missed it?

A hypothesis based on everything we've seen and been told of the Night's Watch over the last six seasons. Plus didn't Aemon pretty much spell it out for us at one point, probably in conversation with Sam, when talking about his past as a Targaryen who was in line for the throne but gave it up? I'm sure I remember that. I don't think we ever get confirmation one way or another that Robert knew about Aemon, but there's no reason to suppose he didn't - it would have been big news in its day, the heir to the throne (I'm sure that's what Aemon said) choosing to renounce his claim and take the black instead. I don't recall if it was spelled out on screen exactly, but I'm fairly confident in my hypothesis that being a Brother of the Night's Watch gave Aemon immunity from all wartime depredations against Targaryens, because he was no longer a Targaryen, and that Ned was hoping for the same for Jon, which is why he refused to tell Jon about his mother the whole time he was growing up, but promised to talk about her as soon as they met again after Jon took the black (which of course never happened).

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Got it, sort of like forced prison...

For most of them. Of course there were the Lord Mormonts (joined, it seems, after his son disgraced the family name) and Benjens due to Tradition. There may have been less murderers and rapers before the Rebellion? We do know that Yoren has a full time job scouring prisons to find possible "recruits" when we join the story. We also seen "volunteers" like Sam and I believe that was Gendry's plan after his master kicked him out of work and home. He just got sidetracked.

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

I don't think we ever get confirmation one way or another that Robert knew about Aemon, but there's no reason to suppose he didn't - it would have been big news in its day, the heir to the throne (I'm sure that's what Aemon said) choosing to renounce his claim and take the black instead.

Good point, Llywela. But Aemon was also a Maester. The clerk at the Citadel still had him down as the Maester at the Wall- along with Mormont as the Lord Commander. I'll have to keep my ears open for the discussion between Jon and Aemon to see if he gave up the crown to become a Maester first? or joined the Watch and then became the Maester. Sure would like to know his back story. The Mad King was his nephew (per the Unsullied character thread), so if Aemon hadn't stepped aside the Targs might still be the rulers in Westeros. It's all Aemon-the-gentle's fault! (Unless his father treated him like Sam's father treated Sam.)

[Pallas]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

Plus didn't Aemon pretty much spell it out for us at one point, probably in conversation with Sam, when talking about his past as a Targaryen who was in line for the throne but gave it up? I'm sure I remember that.

Yes. I think we'll soon see Aemon acknowledge to Sam that he's Aemon Targareyn and what that has meant; it will come up again in Season 2, when Ned is gone and Jon is tempted to join Robb, and Aemon will remind Jon that with his vow, he renounced his family. We'll hear the actual words when we see the lads take the vow, later this season. This year, in ep 4, Sam quotes his father spelling that out -- "You will renounce your name, and your place, and your inheritance, and join the Watch;" previously Tyrion has said, "You lose one family and gain another."  

Ned was waiting until Jon was safe, to tell Jon. I wonder if Ned would have then told Cat and his children, as well. I guess yes; in fact, I think absolutely. He probably thought Cat would be thrilled, overjoyed with the news that he hadn't betrayed her! Seven gods above, Ned Stark...

[gingerella]

Thanks to all three of you for parsing that out for me/us!