S01.E02: The Kingsroad REWATCH (Spoilers)

[Anothermi]

WARNING!!! This thread was created for an Unsullied RE-WATCH after the end of Season 6 and will contain SPOILERS.

This Forum is for Unsullied Members to post in: those who have vowed to not only not read the books, but also to not watch previews, read information on the Viewer's Guide, or seek any information outside of what has been IN THE EPISODES ONLY.

For the purposes of The Habitat there are 4 categories of visitor:

Unsullied = Only watch the show from HBO static to closing credits. Nothing else, nada, zilch, zip. = Welcome to post in here.

Unspoiled = Haven't read the books. Watch the show plus ‘next time on’ previews and/or interviews/reviews and/or own GoT DVD boxsets and/or access HBO GoT content. = Please post in the main GoT forum, where the No Book Talk episode thread caters to you.

Partially-spoiled Bookwalker = Have read some of the books but none beyond where the show has broadcast. = Please post in the main GoT forum, where the No Book Talk episode thread caters to you.

Fully-spoiled Bookwalker = Have read either all of the books or past where the show has broadcast. = Please post in the main GoT forum, where the Book Talk episode thread caters to you.

 

Unless you fall into the Unsullied category above you should be in READ-ONLY mode in this thread (and sub-forum). That also means NO LIKING POSTS.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Episode Synopsis: (re-watch version)

Danerys attends SexEd 101.  Slappity, slappity, SLAP!  See ya later Dad!  That Wall is BIG!  Micah meets his match.

(don't remember this? High time you joined the re-watch)

Edited July 5, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

Nymeria! Summer! Lady! *sniff*

Interesting revisit...particularly Jorah's initial interactions with Dany. He calls her "child" when first we see the, together which I found interesting given he ends up falling in love with her. That and him telling her "it will get easier" when he sees her looking at Drogo...hmmm...I can see why she took to him, he's really the only person she can connect with in a way that is familiar to her. Viserys is a narcissistic prick only interested in his throne and what he thinks he is entitled to, so Jorah is Dany's only "normal" connection. I mean, I knew this, it's just interesting to see given when last we saw him he finally professed his love for her to her face.

Tyrion slapping Joffrey was sooooo satisfying! And wee Tommen, and innocent Myrcella, ahhhh! I forgot that Cersei lost her first son.

The scene with Jon, Arya and Nymeria broke my heart a little bit because it was solo, normal.  But then, NEEDLE! And then I realized...this is the last time Jon and Arya saw each other, this is the last time Jon saw any of his siblings. Cat's face is so filled with hate, I just never understood why she took out her hatred of Ned's supposed infidelity on Jon, I mean, he is an innocent byproduct in all this charade. But man, I LOVE how much I am seeing Jon's love and affection for his Stark siblings. How many times have we uttered those fateful words, "the next time we see each other we will talk about your mother..."

Cat seems like she is more afraid of Ned siring another bastard than anything else when she talks of Ned going away...the last time he left he came back a year later with another woman's son...I hadn't noticed that bit before.

it totally passed me by the first time, that Tywin was Hand to Aerys...rumpkins and snarks....ah yes.  I don't know why Benjen didn't step into that convo with Tyrion, surprised he let him insult the NW.

I completely forgot about attempted assassin and KNIFEY, did we remember that it is made of Valyrian steel and a dragon bone handle? that points to being originally owned by a Targ, yes?  And it struck me as odd that Cat says she has prayed to the Seven for more than a month now and Bran is in their hands now...I thought she was a staunch old Gods person, no?

God, they should have drowned Joffrey in that river when they had the chance, eh? Man, this scene with Arya and Micah...THIS is where it alllll starts to go to shit, isn't it?  Robert is a fucking pussy, not being able to utter the command to kill Lady. Then Ned sees the Hound has killed Micah, yup, it's all gone to hell Ned. You shoulda stayed in the North. 

So, I remember us talking about how the moment Lady dies, Bran awakes. And we wondered what the connection was and now I am guessing that is when he seer abilities are sort of activated, for lack of a better description. That was the most interesting moment in E2...that moment when Bran the Seer is born, or reborn.

[Llywela]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

And it struck me as odd that Cat says she has prayed to the Seven for more than a month now and Bran is in their hands now...I thought she was a staunch old Gods person, no?

No, that was made clear in the first episode when Cat went to find Ned at the weirwood tree and stood there all awkward, saying that even after all these years she still feels like an outsider in that place. Not her religion. And they said something else in that conversation to make it clear that Cat followed a different religion than Ned, I watched it all of three days ago, why can't I remember?

[gingerella]

Thanks for that reminder. See? I just wanted E1 3 days ago and cannot remember that detail! There is just too much info to keep track of in A Show.

[Anothermi]

Geez Louise! So much packed into One Episode!!!

I'll start with my 1st reactions (I wrote notes as I viewed).

Jaime/Jon interaction: Jaime's sarcasm went over Jon's head because Jon idealized the NW and Jaime saw them as what they now were... and not being Tyrion,  chose not to enlighten Jon (superiority syndrome). Jaime used the words that Jon would (he's been educated) - but with irony (he doesn't buy what he learned). Left Jon, the innocent, feeling disrespected and not knowing why. Thank God(s) for Tyrion later on!

Jon Snow: 1) Giving Arya her Needle lesson: Impulsive acts (hugging with sword-in-hand) can cause harm! Be aware!, and 2) Bran's bedside: sets up Jon as someone who ignores nay sayers (in this case - Cat) and does what he sees as "the right thing" the human thing. 3) Cat tells Ned he went away 17 years ago (making Robb just 17) and returned a year later with another woman's son (making Jon about 16. Good call Pallas!)

Robb & Jon: they are close. BUT, they understand their respective "places" within the hierarchy ("Snow" / "Stark"). I see them accepting each other as different (but) equal. Robb's death would have been excessively painful for Jon.

Jon/Ned: The "when we next meet, I will tell you about your mother" was extra poignant to me, now, because we've seen Roose make Ramsey a fully fledged Bolton - and Heir! before we learned (got confirmed) that Jon was Lyanna's son.  Of course Ned could not do the same for Jon. He was not his Father! It was not his call. If Jon WERE Ned's son I have no doubt he would have made him legitimate as soon as was seemly. Robb would still have been the 1st born.

And that was barely the first 15 minutes of the show!!!.

Jorah!

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

I can see why she took to him, he's really the only person she can connect with in a way that is familiar to her.

Ditto for Viserys. I recall he looked at this new person who brought Danerys BOOKS about the 7 Kingdoms! with interest! Someone who spoke his language and knew about the land he would re-conquer. In retrospect, I can see that Jorah was there because he was a SPY. He did and said all the things needed to ingratiate himself to the naive Targaryens.  I wouldn't be surprised if Illyrio was part of his "performance". I remember being suspicious of the way he worded his allegiance: "I served your father for many years. God's be good I always hope to serve the rightful king." (glance toward Viserys). Two birds with one stone. I now wonder if Magister Illyrio was actually testing if the "last" child of the Targaryen empire was also a "Dragon"?" by putting the dragon eggs in her path and seeing what would happen. Perhaps he knew she was heat impervious from his servant? His offer to Viserys, via Jorah, to stay in Pentos for this unknown period of time before the Dothraki decide to invade Westeros, indicates he didn't see Viserys as having any part of his plan. (to me at least)

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

I completely forgot about attempted assassin and KNIFEY, did we remember that it is made of Valyrian steel and a dragon bone handle? that points to being originally owned by a Targ, yes?  And it struck me as odd that Cat says she has prayed to the Seven for more than a month now and Bran is in their hands now...I thought she was a staunch old Gods person, no?

Good old Ging! There is so much to remember! I posted, just recently, that Knifey was the very 1st reference we had to Valyrian steel. I think most of us forgot about the dragon bone handle. Even MORE distinctive. But it doesn't point to a Targ because we know that a Mormont, a Stark, and a Tarly all had Valerian steel swords. Granted, this was not a sword but a Knife, but there were quite a few Valyrian steel weapons about in Westeros.  IF you had the $$.

6 hours ago, Llywela said:

No, that was made clear in the first episode when Cat went to find Ned at the weirwood tree and stood there all awkward, saying that even after all these years she still feels like an outsider in that place. Not her religion. And they said something else in that conversation to make it clear that Cat followed a different religion than Ned, I watched it all of three days ago, why can't I remember?

Beat me to it, Llywela (your name fits so well with this show!)  Ned pointed out that it was the new Gods with all the "rules", not his - the old gods.

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

So, I remember us talking about how the moment Lady dies, Bran awakes. And we wondered what the connection was and now I am guessing that is when he seer abilities are sort of activated, for lack of a better description. That was the most interesting moment in E2...that moment when Bran the Seer is born, or reborn.

I'm with you on this, Ging. Bran is deep in his subconscious, his direwolf is right. by. his. side.  I think he actually "sees" Lady dying! This wakes him, but he doesn't understand what he just "dreamed".

Edited July 7, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

So I guess my question is, what if Bran had never had that accident, how would his gift have awoken in him? I know, it is A Snow and A Viewer must accept what is given to him or her, but still, I wonder...was Bran the chosen one OR was his gift of sight simply because of his injury?  chick or egg? cross the road or no?

[Pallas]

It went so fast, so much story and yes, the Starks together. 

We don't see Jon say good-bye to Sansa and Rickon, the only two Starks he has seen again, so far.

Ned and Robert's bond and their conflicts both beautifully laid out, along with their dilemma: Robert knows he needs Ned to speak truth to power, but has too badly misused his power to bear it. I like Robert so when he's suggesting he and Ned run off together, or teasing Ned for being Ned, or growing serious -- but then the fierceness he turns to discussing the Targareyns, a fierceness Ned answers the same hour he sent Jon away: "Tell me we're not speaking of this" and "You can't get your hands on this one," with a bite I'm sure Robert hasn't heard from anyone -- including Cersei -- in nine years.

Robert and Cersei carefully observing the rituals marking a dead marriage: he snaps, she sneers, he evades responsibility, she presses, he concedes with a show of closing the argument, and withdraws. Ned's having no fear of showing his desperation on his daughters' behalf. Then killing Lady himself, because she's "of the North," and deserves a better executioner than Illyn Payne.  

Sansa and Jon both staring at the reality behind the stories and their fantasies, and refusing to know what they are seeing. Arya, on the other hand, precociously astute about posturing and cowardice -- the looks she flings at Joffrey, then Cersei! -- yet blindly vehement about fair play. Robb taking on his mother about Rickon but just a little glad to see Jon go, on her behalf; Rickon regressing in the month's time since Bran's fall. The Stark child who seems to see most clearly is Bran, who finally opens his eyes once he's alone. 

[Anothermi]

Quote

So I guess my question is, what if Bran had never had that accident, how would his gift have awoken in him? I know, it is A Snow and A Viewer must accept what is given to him or her, but still, I wonder...was Bran the chosen one OR was his gift of sight simply because of his injury?  chick or egg? cross the road or no? - Gingerella

I wonder along with you Ging, but I think - at this point - it's a philosophical question (yes, which came first, the chicken or the egg. No one can say.)

I'll take a stab that if Bran had been uninjured, and the rest of his family still headed off to King's Landing with all the attendant intrigue - he may have still had the "dream". It still would have taken a long time (which it did anyways) to make sense to him, but the escape from Theon's betrayal, the crossing paths with Jojen and Meera, the heroics of Hodor? - those may not have happened. Fate! appears to be a given in this story. Root Dude was clear that you CAN NOT change the past.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Anothermi
add quote

[gingerella]

9 hours ago, Pallas said:

Robert knows he needs Ned to speak truth to power, but has too badly misused his power to bear it. I like Robert so when he's suggesting he and Ned run off together, or teasing Ned for being Ned, or growing serious -- but then the fierceness he turns to discussing the Targareyns, a fierceness Ned answers the same hour he sent Jon away: "Tell me we're not speaking of this" and "You can't get your hands on this one," with a bite I'm sure Robert hasn't heard from anyone -- including Cersei -- in nine years.

Yes! When I first met Robert I thought he was somewhat endearing, his wife a shrew. But now, after 6 seasons of A Show? I see him as a shit king, with a shittier moral compass or completely lacking thereof. He hangs on to anger that is misplaced, he disrespects his wife the queen, and he is a shit parent. If you are the King then you take a special interest in the Crown Prince and ensuring he is raised properly. But no, Robert allows Cersei to coddle Joffrey and indulge him to the point that he turns into a monster that even Cersei herself cannot control. Come to think of it, after writing that last part of the last sentence it struck me...Cersei creates monsters, then loses control of them. Cases in point: Joffrey. The Sparrow. Mountainstein will likely be next I'd wager though I'm not sure how Cersei is controlling him. Perhaps its just her giving him false praise that is appeasing him whence last we saw him? She tried to control Tommen too, though he was no monster, but she lost control of him a well, and it looks like she is about to lose control of Jamie too at the end of S6. Interesting...the only person she outwardly appeared to never control was Robert. And Ned. And Marg. In terms of people immediately adjacent to her.

10 hours ago, Pallas said:

Robert and Cersei carefully observing the rituals marking a dead marriage: he snaps, she sneers, he evades responsibility, she presses, he concedes with a show of closing the argument, and withdraws. Ned's having no fear of showing his desperation on his daughters' behalf. Then killing Lady himself, because she's "of the North," and deserves a better executioner than Illyn Payne.  

This was so sad, that scene where Arya is taken before the Royal family. God, Ned should have pulled his kids and rode back to Winterfell that very night. I wonder if Robert would have killed him for deserting him in his time of need, or how he would have forced Ned to leave the North if he'd refused Robert's request...But yeah, that scene was soooo dead marriage walking. And shameful that it was on display for all their subject to see too.

10 hours ago, Pallas said:

Sansa and Jon both staring at the reality behind the stories and their fantasies, and refusing to know what they are seeing. Arya, on the other hand, precociously astute about posturing and cowardice -- the looks she flings at Joffrey, then Cersei! -- yet blindly vehement about fair play. Robb taking on his mother about Rickon but just a little glad to see Jon go, on her behalf; Rickon regressing in the month's time since Bran's fall. The Stark child who seems to see most clearly is Bran, who finally opens his eyes once he's alone. 

yes, Yes, YES to all of this! Every scene was chock full of so much more meaning to A Viewer once we knew what was coming. 

10 hours ago, Pallas said:

We don't see Jon say good-bye to Sansa and Rickon, the only two Starks he has seen again, so far.

This is so poignant it hurts to read it. You are so right Pallas. I hadn't noticed that. Wow.

10 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I'll take a stab that if Bran had been uninjured, and the rest of his family still headed off to King's Landing with all the attendant intrigue - he may have still had the "dream". It still would have taken a long time (which it did anyways) to make sense to him, but the escape from Theon's betrayal, the crossing paths with Jojen and Meera, the heroics of Hodor? - those may not have happened. Fate! appears to be a given in this story. Root Dude was clear that you CAN NOT change the past.

anothermi, I think you're right, especially about that last bit, Root Dude and destiny...We will never know, but man, what timing eh?

[Llywela]

Damn, this re-watch is hurting my heart so much. There's a reason I've never re-watched this show, people!

Especially poignant to me, in light of season six revelations, were Ned's conversation with Jon about his mother ("Next time we meet, we'll talk about your mother") and with Robert about the Targaryens, with every word from Robert's mouth standing as evidence for why Ned maintained that lie so resolutely. Robert could never be allowed to know the truth about Jon - Cat's hatred of Jon and the stain on Ned's much-vaunted honour were the price that had to be paid for Jon's safety - not just (presumably) the son of a Targaryen, but the child Robert's 'beloved' Lyanna dared to have with another man - if Robert even suspected for a moment, it would be like a red rag to a bull, you can see it so clearly here in Robert's hate-fuelled invective against any and all Targaryens. Even into these early episodes of the show when so much water had passed under the bridge, Ned still didn't trust his dear friend with Jon's life, not if the truth were known.

I'd forgotten about Dany's 'it is known' girls. And that she instinctively kept the dragon eggs warm right from the start, keeping candles lit all around them.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Llywela

[gingerella]

48 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Damn, this re-watch is hurting my heart so much. There's a reason I've never re-watched this show, people!

You and me both, Llywela, you and me both! It does hurt to watch some of this with A Viewer's now-jaded eyes, knowing what is to come.

49 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Even into these early episodes of the show when so much water had passed under the bridge, Ned still didn't trust his dear friend with Jon's life, not if the truth were known.

Right? It was so telling how different Ned's reaction to Robert inferring that they must together murder Dany was - Ned was so disgusted and appalled, and Robert just filled with hateful revenge, willing to kill a woman who is still more or less an adolescent child. I wonder if Robert would have killed Ned had he known that his darling sister Lyanna hd schtupped a Targ and had his baby...can you even imagine Robert's reaction to that.

[90PercentGravity]

So, this is the knife that Littlefinger later claims was won off of him by Tyrion. Did Tyrion ever actually confirm that, or just didn't deny it? As we know, Lyza and Littlefinger poisoned Jon Arryn and then sent a message to Cat pointing at the Lannisters. It's been a month since Bran fell, which means there is time for Littlefinger to find out. So maybe he plotted this whole thing to stir more unrest between the Starks and Lannisters (north and south).

[gingerella]

90, do we know for sure - in the future - that Lysa was in on poisoning Jon Arryn, or did we assume that? I cannot remember Lysa's ranting and raving as I detested her so much, I think I just blanked out when she was on screen...

[Pallas]

17 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Bran is deep in his subconscious, his direwolf is right. by. his. side.  I think he actually "sees" Lady dying! This wakes him, but he doesn't understand what he just "dreamed".

And Summer whimpers, sensing Lady's death. And so, Bran sensed it too. 

16 hours ago, gingerella said:

So I guess my question is, what if Bran had never had that accident, how would his gift have awoken in him?

To me it seems -- only now, watching last night -- that the direwolves are key, not the assault. The gift surfaced soon when Bran was first immobilized, but I don't think Bran's gift arose to "compensate" for the loss of his mobility. Even though the timing is congruent, and the author/showrunners know that many believe the myth that other senses sharpen when people become blind, for example. (I did too, until I worked for a center for the blind, and was set straight in three different conversations with blind staff members who raised the subject.) 

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

Come to think of it, after writing that last part of the last sentence it struck me...Cersei creates monsters, then loses control of them. Cases in point: Joffrey. The Sparrow. Mountainstein will likely be next I'd wager though I'm not sure how Cersei is controlling him. Perhaps its just her giving him false praise that is appeasing him whence last we saw him? She tried to control Tommen too, though he was no monster, but she lost control of him as well, and it looks like she is about to lose control of Jamie too at the end of S6.

Wow, that's terrific and so true. And each of these failures with momentous results. Where she's even worse is making allies within the great game. All four other adult Lannisters -- Tyrion, Tywin, Kevan, Lancel -- each reject her; Littlefinger and Varys play her better than she intimidates them; Oberyn graciously ignores her overtures and sides with Tyrion; Olenna and she understand in short order that they are adversaries. That leaves only Qyborn as a creature she made and who so far has been staunch for her. But we know nothing of what other motives he may have, or if he will try to desert her when the heat gets turned up.  

Yet even after Cersei prosecutes, slanders, interrogates and punishes his daughter -- even knowing that Lysa believes that the Lannisters murdered his mentor -- one character will continue to offer Cersei his respect as Queen, sympathy as a badly-used wife, honor as a mother and a way out of the mess she made of her life. Perhaps because he sees Cersei with Robert, and thinks of Lyanna; sees Cersei's three children, and thinks of the murdered Targareyn children and Jon. 

Oh, I'm in danger of loving Ned even more. I know I'm not alone in that, and it's good to be together! 

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

God, Ned should have pulled his kids and rode back to Winterfell that very night. I wonder if Robert would have killed him for deserting him in his time of need, or how he would have forced Ned to leave the North if he'd refused Robert's request...

I know. Cat's right: "This is what men say!"  But an adolescence and two wars with Robert -- the men they led and lost, the realm they re-made, and the oath Ned swore to his friend. The king he's been lying to for 17 years, sheltering and training the only Targareyn left in Westeros: Ned's conflicted about that too. And probably, unconsciously furious with Robert for being such a vindictive ass, for forcing Ned to hide his nephew and lie to Robert -- along with his wife, children, household, home and everyone else, including the boy. That ambivalence makes Ned even more vulnerable to self-serving people untroubled by doubt. Then there's his more straightforward loyalty to Jon Arryn, Ned's other father-figure who was summoned to King's Landing and died there. 

I think what Cat intuited when she told Ned, "You have a choice, and you've made it," is that Ned's life with his family before Rickard and Brandon were killed has a deeper hold on him than his life after that as his father's accidental heir, married to his brother's fiance. For Ned, Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon were part of that life; they too were family. Catelyn Tully and King Robert were not. I think Ned is probably (even) happier with the family he made and more fulfilled as Lord of Winterfell than he was as Second Son, but that's part of his first family's hold on him too. Not survivor's guilt so much as the lesser moral weight he gives to personal happiness and fulfillment. At least his own and his family's; at least for now, while he's still on the King's Road.

[Anothermi]

19 hours ago, Pallas said:

...the fierceness he turns to discussing the Targareyns, a fierceness Ned answers the same hour he sent Jon away: "Tell me we're not speaking of this" and "You can't get your hands on this one," with a bite...

 

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

Robert could never be allowed to know the truth about Jon - Cat's hatred of Jon and the stain on Ned's much-vaunted honour were the price that had to be paid for Jon's safety - not just (presumably) the son of a Targaryen, but the child Robert's 'beloved' Lyanna dared to have with another man - if Robert even suspected for a moment, it would be like a red rag to a bull, you can see it so clearly here in Robert's hate-fuelled invective against any and all Targaryens.

Yes it is all there to see... now... with hindsight. But Cersei's conversation (OK, monologue) with Cat in Bran's room seems to shed some light on Robert's fierceness towards Tagaryens as well:

"Robert was crazed (at the death of Cersei's 1st born). Beat his hands bloody on the wall. All the things men do to show you how much they care."

She wasn't talking about what he did to show he cared about HER. But he DID care about that child - perhaps because he could imagine it being born from his making love with "Lyanna" that 1st night with Cersei? Who knows, but the way he showed the depth of his feelings was to beat something up - even if it had to be a wall because there was no one who could be blamed (except himself and those who "denied" him a child by Lyanna). 

31 minutes ago, Pallas said:

That leaves only Qyborn as a creature she made and who so far has been staunch for her. But we know nothing of what other motives he may have, or if he will try to desert her when the heat gets turned up.  

Hmmm. Yes. She did make Qyburn by slowly raising him into higher and higher positions. I've never believed that Mountainstien is controled by Cersei. I have always seen Qyburn as the puppet master! That's why, after Qyburn took control of Varys "little birds" (and turned them into little "raptors") I suggested that Mountainstien had become his "Big bird" (nothing little about him).

If things come to a showdown between Cersei and Qyburn? My money is on the big M doing Qyburn's bidding.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Anothermi
spelling

[Llywela]

Another thing that's interesting to note in these early episodes is that the majority of the characters getting the lion's share of the screentime are still with us, six seasons later. Not a universal rule, obviously - alas, poor Ned and Cat - but as a general rule of thumb, the characters getting smaller amounts of story, development and screentime tend to be the ones who have since fallen by the wayside. Although the show makes a big play of 'anyone can die', most of the seemingly endgame players were very much locked in from the start. Just look at the difference in screentime and development that Jon and Robb have had in these first two episodes, for instance - ditto Dany and Viserys.

[Anothermi]

4 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Although the show makes a big play of 'anyone can die', most of the seemingly endgame players were very much locked in from the start.

Hee, that's true, but only with hindsight. So many of the characters we are/were enjoying and speculating about are dead. The vast majority, I'd say. It was not possible to pick the wheat from the chaf. I recall, in S05, that I was surprised at how many Starks were still alive! It felt like half of them had died!

Further thoughts on the re-watch...

Two direwolves go to King's Landing ... sounds like the beginning of a joke, but it's not.

Neither arrive - direwolves don't belong south of (the Wall). Lady, so trusting. Does what is expected of her. Nymeria, not trusting, does what must be done. Sansa and Lady pay the penalty for being the symbol of Starkness. Arya and Nymeria don't wait around. "No good deed will go unpunished" - unless you don't wait for it.

For Arya? The List starts here! (Cersei... the Hound... Joffrey).

The writing turns out to be very multi-layered. The breakfast conversation between Jaime & Tyrion seemed (to us) to only be about Bran and Tyrion :

Jaime says "Even if the boy lives, he will be a cripple, a grotesque. Give me a good clean death any day." Short but pointed foreshadowing - if you know what is to come for him. (I am quite happy to have been ignorant of that.)

And a couple of different bits of dialogue to add to the "who sent the assassin with Knifey?" mystery:

Cersei (at breakfast table): "It's no mercy letting a child linger in such pain."

Assassin (to Cat): "You're not supposed to be here. No one's supposed to be here. It's a mercy. He's dead already."

On one level, it's Cercei's comment rectified. On another? Assassin... No One... Dead already... Shades of the faceless men!

[Anothermi]

<moved this from S06E03: Oathbreaker thread because it's about the re-watch>

Another point that I just noted this re-watch:

Jorah goes by "the Andal" - at least that, and Jorah, were the words Drogo addressed him by in the wedding scene episode 1. I know it comes up later, which is probably why I recognized it this time. Anywhoo... We now know Jorah is from the North - Bear Island to be exact - and that the Starks, and possibly others, take pride in being descendants of the 1st Men. Jorah-the-Andal kinda indicates that he - and his predecessors - came from ancient (pre-targ) conquerors of the 1st Men (who ended up south of the Wall). While it shows there seems to have been some kind of amicable integration of the new with the old, it seems that we find this only in the North. I would guess there are a lot more people in the South who's lineage is Andal and they don't feel the need to add that to their name (Sam doesn't say Sam Tarly the Andal even though it is quite likely his comes from Andal stock).

All this to reflect on the oft used phrase "The North cannot be held by an outsider". The Mormonts - as I see now - carry the descriptive: "the Andal" - because they are a rare minority in the North. One that conquered and populated the South, but - with this one (known) exception - could not do the same in the North. The "Andal" Mormont's fore-bearers claimed land in the North, but appear to have adopted the Northern ways and attitudes. So much so that the young Lyanna Mormont embodies Northern values MORE than Bannermen with (arguably) much longer history in the North.

[gingerella]

^^ I am confused about this and need some clarification assistance please^^

1. So the Fist of the First Men is North of the Wall, yes? What is that? is that the supposed birthplace of the First Men?

2. Who exactly are the First Men? Are they one group of people who got caught North and South of the Wall, making all First Men Wildlings basically? 

3. Are Andals the same as First Men and why call them Andals then?  And if the Mormont's and others are from the North and are Andals/First Men, then aren't they essentially the same stock as Wildlings, the only difference being Mormont's got caught South of the Wall instead of North of it? Maybe that is what makes Northerners so strong minded and independent, they all are the same heritage? Deal with various levels of difficult living in the North's harsher and wilder climate and terrain?

4. If the above is true, who built the Wall? The Stark's have had kin at the Wall for a thousand years or so. Does that mean that Stark's originally come from elsewhere?

Sorry if these are stupid questions at this point but there is too much stuff to remember it all and I tend to dump my GoT data after each season...grrrr....esplain it to me like I was 12, okay? Thanks!

[Llywela]

The Fist of the First Men is North of the wall, yes - it's where Jon and co had their first encounter with White Walkers, iirc. Something dramatic happened there, anyway.

My understanding of the First Men, Andals, etc is that it's a bit like the waves of migration that made up the population of the UK in the middle ages. The First Men are the equivalent of the Native Britons, the Celts, the native peoples of Westeros. Then the Andals came along and pushed the First Men out of most of their homeland - in much the same way that the coming of the Anglo-Saxons pushed the Celts into the north and west (Scotland and Wales). In British history, the Anglo-Saxons were followed by Vikings and then Normans, but I'm hazy on whether or not Westeros has an equivalent - did the Targaryens bring countrymen with them when they invaded? If so, they would be the Norman equivalent.

It's possible, of course, that I've just made all of this up in my head. But when they talk about First Men and Andals, that's what it sounds like to me - waves of migration that changed the population of the continent at a fundamental level. The First Men were pushed north by the coming of the Andals - but I don't know why the name 'Andal' gets attached to Jorah so particularly and not anyone else of that stock. Maybe the Mormonts are the only northern ruling house to descend from the Andals, as anothermi suggests.

I'm not clear at what point in Westerosi immigration history the Wall was built, but my impression from the show is that it was primarily the remnant of the First Men who ended up on the wrong side of it and became Wildlings. It must have been a time of great chaos and desperation. The overwhelming priority would have been keeping White Walkers out of the populated lands of Westeros. But did those Wildling ancestors stay on the wrong side of the Wall deliberately or by accident? I don't think that's ever been made clear, but certainly their descendants are proud of having survived free of the feudal system south of the Wall. Maybe that feudal system was introduced by the Andals? And then embraced by the chieftains of the First Men who became House Stark? I don't know. But that's the vague impression Show has given me, over the years.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Llywela

[Anothermi]

Nicely laid out, Llywela. That's more or less where my thinking came from when throwing that spitball about Johah and the rest of the Mormonts. Glad you understood.

The Fist of the First Men was a kind of hill top north of the Wall, where Sam ends up showing off his Book learning. Sam waxes poetic about what a historic spot it is, the others are digging... latrines I'd guess. One of them finds the cache of Dragon Glass there - wrapped up in an ancient version of Night Watch cloak (this I'm not entirely sure of, but think I remember Sam saying that). Sam identifies what Dragon Glass is, if not what it is FOR. We also learned that two blasts of the horn mean Night Watch rangers and three means White Walkers. Of course they all asked how he knew this and before he could finish his sentence they all joined in: "I read it in a book". And yes, the Night's Watch fought the WW there (WW left the horse body parts in a pin/swirl design there). However, Jon had left with Qhorin Halfhand before that.

One of the clues that the Andals came after the 1st Men is, of course in the name 1st Men. But we learned this recent season (S06) that the Children of the Forest (CHoF) were being decimated by the 1st Men. That was why they created the 1st White Walker - which we saw through Bran's vision. That, at least, caused a big distraction from the CHoF, if not the protection they were hoping for.

I don't know how long ago that was, but if the Wall was built to keep out the WW, and Starks have been defending the Wall for over 8000 years  - as Jon recited to Jaime in this re-watch episode - then the WW had to have been created more than 8000 years ago. I've spit-balled at one point that the 1st men who ended up South of the Wall might have been ones who agreed to accept the help and hierarchy of those who inhabited the South. I assumed this would have been the Andals, but we haven't been given very much information on them except that their name also appears in the title of the Kings of Westeros (& Danerys'). Basically, I've just recently wondered about this - and Jorah's label - in the context of the over all story. We know that the majority of the 1st Men ended up north of the Wall, but we don't know what involvement the Andals may have had constructing it - if any. Following Llywela's excellent explanation, there may be a parallel to Hadrian's Wall that the Romans (?) built to keep the Celt's in the north - and out of their hair.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Anothermi
clarity

[Pallas]

That sounds about exactly right, Llywela. I do think that the North roughly mirrors Great Britain, and I love your analysis of the socio-political grounding: the Free Folk cut off by the Wall and surviving as a pre-feudal culture: 

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

It must have been a time of great chaos and desperation. The overwhelming priority would have been keeping White Walkers out of the populated lands of Westeros. But did those Wildling ancestors stay on the wrong side of the Wall deliberately or by accident? I don't think that's ever been made clear, but certainly their descendants are proud of having survived free of the feudal system south of the Wall.

That's a great point -- I realize I'd always imagined that the original Free Folk were isolated tribes living beyond the fringe of a no-man's-land on which the Wall was then erected. A minority of the living left trapped in the realm of the dead. But we really don't know, do we. And of course we don't know exactly who built the Wall and how: with slave labor?  And did the construction crews have to be protected against raiding parties of future Free Folk who saw their future and didn't like it?  Who among the builders seeded into it the "strong magic" to repel the dead: priests, sorcerers, others? Oh, and since it's been built, has there been an invasion of the dead? I don't think so; it seems we keep hearing the same "thousands of years" about both the Wall and the last era of the Walkers, so the Wall and its magic have probably never been tested.   

Purely selfish thought. If the Wall is destroyed by the Walkers, but the Walkers are ultimately defeated by a grand alliance of the living, does that mean Benjen can come home?  Benjen, who has now passed from poor man's Timothy Dalton to dead man's...

[gingerella]

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

did the Targaryens bring countrymen with them when they invaded

So then, the Targs are not originally from Westeros? I thought their seat, Dragonstone, was already in Westeros?

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

The First Men were pushed north by the coming of the Andals - but I don't know why the name 'Andal' gets attached to Jorah so particularly and not anyone else of that stock. Maybe the Mormonts are the only northern ruling house to descend from the Andals, as anothermi suggests.

So we don't know where the Andals came from then? I thought the Mormont clan was one of the original Houses/families of the North, no? Being Andal in a conqueror sort of scenario would negate that, yes?

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

I'm not clear at what point in Westerosi immigration history the Wall was built, but my impression from the show is that it was primarily the remnant of the First Men who ended up on the wrong side of it and became Wildlings. It must have been a time of great chaos and desperation. The overwhelming priority would have been keeping White Walkers out of the populated lands of Westeros. But did those Wildling ancestors stay on the wrong side of the Wall deliberately or by accident?

If this were the case, why wouldn't all the First Men come South of the Wall rather than have some get "stuck" North of it? I don't get that part because if the Wall was made by the First Men, then why couldn't they just call any/all people living North of it to come ASAP to pass through before the gates were closed? And why continue to keep those North of the Wall on that side if they were from the same stock/lineage of people as the Northerners are? It's like Pakistan and India - someone setting up a false barrier - in this case with a Wall - and telling those on each side that they cannot live on the other side. But why?!  After writing that out I know am wondering like Llywela, if those who remained North of the Wall did so of their own decision, perhaps to remain "Free" Folk and not come under a feudal system that others mentioned. That at least would make some grain of sense. Though it still isn't clear why they'd never be allowed through the Wall gates if they descend from the same First Men and all...you'd think they'd share lineages with some folks South of the Wall that live in the North.

8 hours ago, Anothermi said:

But we learned this recent season (S06) that the Children of the Forest (CHoF) were being decimated by the 1st Men. That was why they created the 1st White Walker

When we learned more about the CHoF in SO6, I got the impression that they were "there first", even before the First Men, but it wasn't clear to me if the CHoF dwelled only North of the Wall area, or if they once inhabited South of the Wall in what we know as The North.  I sort of got that it was first the CHoF, then First Men, then WWs which were created by CHoF...And I also assumed that the strong magic imbedded into the Wall may have come from the CHoF because they seemed to possess magic, and the First Men did not. I mean, if CHoF can "create" WWs, the holy shitballs, what else can they do?! Perhaps they created the magic embedded into the Wall to keep out the dead after the CHoF saw their Monster go all Cersei on them?  But that doesn't explain why the CHoF continued to live North of the Wall, unless they are not quite "living", and maybe they embedded magic that denied passage to the dead to protect all other living folks South of the Wall? Maybe they were altruistic?

8 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I've spit-balled at one point that the 1st men who ended up South of the Wall might have been ones who agreed to accept the help and hierarchy of those who inhabited the South. I assumed this would have been the Andals, but we haven't been given very much information on them

and

8 hours ago, Anothermi said:

We know that the majority of the 1st Men ended up north of the Wall, but we don't know what involvement the Andals may have had constructing it - if any.

I didn't realize that the majority of First Men ended up North of the Wall...So all the key Northern Houses are Andal heritage? Not First Men? 

 

8 hours ago, Pallas said:

I realize I'd always imagined that the original Free Folk were isolated tribes living beyond the fringe of a no-man's-land on which the Wall was then erected. A minority of the living left trapped in the realm of the dead. But we really don't know, do we. And of course we don't know exactly who built the Wall and how: with slave labor?  And did the construction crews have to be protected against raiding parties of future Free Folk who saw their future and didn't like it?  Who among the builders seeded into it the "strong magic" to repel the dead: priests, sorcerers, others? Oh, and since it's been built, has there been an invasion of the dead? I don't think so; it seems we keep hearing the same "thousands of years" about both the Wall and the last era of the Walkers, so the Wall and its magic have probably never been tested.   

I guess I've been sort of thinking along the same lines as Pallas all along though I think this is the first time we've tried to parse out all the details of this Andals/First Men/Wildlings/CHoF stuff in such a cohesive manner. Or was I asleep when that convo happened in the past?! Anyway, I sort of thought too that Free Folk - who are AKA Wildlings too, right? - were tribes that were more nomadic and rough/rustic if you will, more hunter gathers vs. the more agrarian farmers of the South, and they literally got stuck North of the Wall, though it begs wondering how long that Wall took to be made, and you don't just wake up one day to wander into a clearing and see a wall like that existing...unless you're a total dumbass...Craster never moved his Keep South of the Wall, but he wasnt' really considered a Wildling was he? I viewed him as a Northerner living North of the Wall of his own decision, and becoming the baby WW Factory in order to live without problems from WWs.

Apologies if I'm making people's heads hurt but I really want to figure this out...

[Anothermi]

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

I didn't realize that the majority of First Men ended up North of the Wall...So all the key Northern Houses are Andal heritage? Not First Men? 

We don't actually know that. I surmised (which is what I should have said) that because the combined Mance forces seemed a lot more than what we knew of the numbers in the North (Starks, bannermen et al) that this would be why. But something I forgot to consider was that this division of the 1st Men happened 8000 years ago!

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

I sort of thought too that Free Folk - who are AKA Wildlings too, right? - were tribes that were more nomadic and rough/rustic if you will, more hunter gathers vs. the more agrarian farmers of the South,

 8000 years or more ago that description probably applied to everyone in the North. Hell, it still kinda applies to the current bunch of Northerners. So that long ago, even if only a small number of 1st men were left on either side, there has been a lot of time for population regeneration. Those north of the Wall would be a lot less... hmm... diluted stock then those south of the Wall. There would likely have been a few NW, besides Mance,  who - over that 8000 years - chose a life of living with the Free Folk rather than a life tracking them down and killing them.

South of the Wall there would have been a bit more opportunity to mix up the 1st Men bloodlines. Ned married a girl from the "south". So I suspect the Northerners may have some Andal blood mixed in with the 1st Men lineage. But it is still odd that Jorah is labeled "the Andal". It could just be the Dothraki way of teasing him?

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

If this were the case, why wouldn't all the First Men come South of the Wall rather than have some get "stuck" North of it?

From what we've seen of the Wildlings, and the incredulity displayed by members of the NW about Mance's ability to get them to agree to band together as a fighting force, I'd spitball that historically they were also divided into tribes - like they were before Mance united them. The Wildlings are certainly more directly descended from the 1st Men than the Starks so less likely to have adopted new ways of being. It was from knowing that the Wildlings were so hard to unify that I assumed the 1st Men would have disagreed about this big effing Wall idea.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Though it still isn't clear why they'd never be allowed through the Wall gates if they descend from the same First Men and all...you'd think they'd share lineages with some folks South of the Wall that live in the North.

I find it hard to imagine that way back 8000 years ago the 1st Men thought of themselves as, well... "the 1st Men". They were likely split into clans or tribes and perceived each other as, at best, competition for the scarce resources, and at worst? as sworn enemies. However the decision was made as to who moved south of the Wall (the "leave" supporters as it were) and who stayed north of it (the "remain" supporters), I find it likely that there would have been a lot of acrimony. Possibly brother-against-brother and father-against-son levels. That happened during the US Civil War didn't it? I can see those historical disagreements gradually becoming entrenched over time into the hatred that the Wildings feel towards the NW and that Aliser Thorne displayed towards the Wildings. Despite a variety of proofs that WW exist in his own time, Thorne's firm belief was that the Wall existed to keep the Wildlings north of the Wall and the NW existed to keep them in check. 

So no, I wouldn't think they'd allow the "remain" supporters through. (not even with a Visa and a Work permit!)

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

I got the impression that they were "there first", even before the First Men, but it wasn't clear to me if the CHoF dwelled only North of the Wall area, or if they once inhabited South of the Wall in what we know as The North. 

I also got the impression that the CHoF were "there first", even before the 1st Men. One of the other things the speaking CHoF told Bran was "they" were cutting down the sacred trees. We do know that south of "the North" most of the weirwood trees had been cut down. Sansa had to resort to praying in front of a dead weirwood stump in King's Landing. In the North of Westeros, we've only seen the Weirwood tree in the Stark sanctuary - walled in, perhaps to protect it. What we also know is that the Wall was built to keep the WW in the far north (despite what Aliser Thorne believed). The CHoF had been around before the Wall because the Wall was built to contain the Monster they felt forced to create (the WW) - so it is possible they lived further south at some point. Ned told Bran in E01 that the WW hadn't been around for "thousands" of year and Maester Luwin said the same to him about the CHoF. If the Wall's magic foundation worked? that might be the reason neither had been seen for thousands of years. They were locked behind the Wall (Benjen said he could not pass and the Night King had a Dragon Glass shard shoved into his heart, so he could be the same kind of "dead" that Benjen & Jon are). The CHoF? we don't even know if they are human. They seem to have some magical abilities, so they could have been the ones who seeded the "strong magic" into the the foundations of the Wall. But they were no friends of the 1st Men - who they saw as waging war against them, so that doesn't seem plausible.   Pallas made a few suggestion as to who else it could have been, but I think this is one of those things that should be added to "The Greatest Mysteries of the Show" thread.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

So then, the Targs are not originally from Westeros? I thought their seat, Dragonstone, was already in Westeros?

Back when Ned was poring over the Big Boring Tome (coming soon to a re-watch near you!), I did a slo-mo look at what was in the book. (I'll try to dig it up and post it in the relevant re-watch episode- that's IF I can find it.) All the "House" lineages were listed with a date system that appeared to start when Aegon the Conquerer first landed on their soil and ... conquered them. I think we decided - or perhaps it was actually said, I don't remember - that Targs first landed at Dragonstone and used that as their base to conquer the rest of Westeros. I'm pretty sure we've speculated that they were from somewhere in Essos and there was some speculation about a link to Valyria - before the Doom. Last re-watch episode the Dothraki handmaidens spoke about where Dragons came from so they were no stranger to Dragons.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

So we don't know where the Andals came from then? I thought the Mormont clan was one of the original Houses/families of the North, no? Being Andal in a conqueror sort of scenario would negate that, yes?

There aren't a lot of places the Andal's could have come from... There's Essos and there's the "shadowlands beyond Ashai". That's pretty much all we've been told of. The "Free Cities" and the Slaver Cities all seem to be located in Essos. Let's just say the Andals came from "away". It is clear that the Mormont's have been long established in the North, but my speculation was that very few Andals seem to have established residence in the North. So if the Jorah-the-Andal designation applies to his entire extended family (rather than just being a derisive name the Dothraki gave Jorah alone), AND they are not the biggest cheese in the North because of being the conquerers, it would mean the Andal branch of their family tree chose to come to, or stay in, the North not as conquerers but perhaps as settlers - willing to adopt the ways of the North.

This story mirrors a lot of the same historical conventions of the world we live in. Very few places maintain a "pure" lineage. Most regular folk just adapt to the changes that war/conflict brings and work towards as normal a life as possible - and intermarry with whomever won the wars. The Mormonts could have been regular old foot soldier-type Andals. Or not Andals. It's just a spec.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

I think this is the first time we've tried to parse out all the details of this Andals/First Men/Wildlings/CHoF stuff in such a cohesive manner. Or was I asleep when that convo happened in the past?!

We may have wondered about this in the past, but, no, not in such a cohesive manner. We didn't have as much to go on as we do now. I only brought it up as something new to chew on because I noticed that Khal Drogo used "the Andal" when he greeted Jorah approaching with his wedding gift of books.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Craster never moved his Keep South of the Wall, but he wasnt' really considered a Wildling was he? I viewed him as a Northerner living North of the Wall of his own decision, and becoming the baby WW Factory in order to live without problems from WWs.

And lastly, sorry for this being so long, Craster didn't move his Keep South of the Wall because he wasn't around 8000 years ago. I saw him as a present day (story wise), loner Wildling (who's ancestors remained north of the Wall). He's disgusting (Jon was shocked to learn that Mormont knew what went on at his Keep) but the NW made a deal with him because he was "useful to them". I'm not sure Mormont knew that Craster had created a unique exchange with the WW that protected him from the WW and allowed him to live alone - without a tribe for protection. I believe that, too, would have been recent - within Craster's adult lifetime at least.

Thanks for the thought provoking question, Ging. Have some grog... to anyone who made it this far.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

Wonderful laying out of what A Show has shown to us, Anothermi. I think answers beyond that lie only within the non-ponderous, non-tomes we've willfully forsworn, despite their being a mere click away. And if the Andals are now the dominant ethnic group in Westeros, maybe the Dothraki call all Westerosi "Andals" -- as we might call the Bretons French or the Basques Spanish. 

I thought we had surmised that the Targareyns originally came from Valyria, home of the volcano (and dragon) we see portrayed on the girding of the astrolabe? Thus my spec some time ago that Valyrian steel is so rare because it's made of ore local to Valyria -- with a high volcanic ash content, similar to dragonglass -- and originally, smelt by dragons. And why Valyrian is still the formal language of the Seven Kingdoms' church and crown, less than two decades after the last Targaryn king.

[gingerella]

^This was soooo helpful, thank you!^

For some reason I kept hearing Jon say 'a thousand years' not 'eight thousand years' so thank you for that clarification because that is a hella lot longer than what I heard, and it puts some aspects into different perspective due to the insane length of time. For example, I now think of the OG First Men more like cave men because, yanno, 8,000 years...!

I won't say anything else because I need to digest this above, but THANK YOU to Llywela, Pallas and Anothermi for taking the time to help think through this stuff...!

ETA: I wonder if the books lay out all the details on this stuff and it's clear to readers....Hmmm, maybe after the final season we will indeed need to do a group read, that ought to keep us together for another decade or so!

Edited July 10, 2016 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

And if the Andals are now the dominant ethnic group in Westeros, maybe the Dothraki call all Westerosi "Andals" -- as we might call the Bretons French or the Basques Spanish.

Well.... I mean... uh... that would be just too easy an explanation. I like to follow the unbeaten path when it comes to this show - even when there is an obvious and logical answer. <blush>

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

I thought we had surmised that the Targareyns originally came from Valyria, home of the volcano (and dragon) we see portrayed on the girding of the astrolabe? Thus my spec some time ago that Valyrian steel is so rare because it's made of ore local to Valyria -- with a high volcanic ash content, similar to dragonglass -- and originally, smelt by dragons. And why Valyrian is still the formal language of the Seven Kingdoms' church and crown, less than two decades after the last Targaryn king.

Now that you mention it? Yes, I remember that - pretty much all of it. There was a whole lot more of us posting back then, so the discussion may have been broken by other poster's digressions, but my memory is definitely pinging. Especially the the part relating to the astrolabe as it was a pet project of mine - more in a what-is-that? than a what-do-those-images-mean? way.

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

And I also assumed that the strong magic imbedded into the Wall may have come from the CHoF because they seemed to possess magic, and the First Men did not. I mean, if CHoF can "create" WWs, the holy shitballs, what else can they do?! Perhaps they created the magic embedded into the Wall to keep out the dead after the CHoF saw their Monster go all Cersei on them?  But that doesn't explain why the CHoF continued to live North of the Wall, unless they are not quite "living", and maybe they embedded magic that denied passage to the dead to protect all other living folks South of the Wall? Maybe they were altruistic?

I forgot to fully address this. My spec was that it wasn't plausible that the CHoF embedded the strong magic in the foundations of the Wall due to what the 1st Men did to them, but from what we see of them during Bran's story line this past season they WERE altruistic. Back 8000 years ago they may have been willing to help the remaining 1st Men due to a sense of guilt for the overkill (literally) of their mistake in creating the WW. They were certainly aligned with the descendants of the 1st Men in Season 6!

Regarding the Rubic's Cube Theorum, Ging: It seems to me that the CHoF belong firmly in the Green section of the cube (that's environmental yes?).

Edited July 10, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

ah yes, we need to go over to the Rubiks Theorum thread and update that since S6 is over now. I think the CHoF are the first example A Show has given A Viewer where, when held up to the Rubiks Theorum, they encompass two aspects: environmental and magic. Et voila! we shall speak more of this when we meet again...At the morrow...

[DirewolfPup]

(Note: I'm late to the party. I'm writing this before reading the rest of the discussion to get my unclouded thoughts. Sometimes, all of your insights are so interesting, I forget everything I meant to say!)

I'm seeing several parallels in the story vs what we know now 6 seasons in. The most glaring is Bran being "awoke" from the brink of death while Summer lay beside him. This echo's Jon Snow with Ghost before and during his resurrection. This may have something to do with the magical connections that Bran and Jon both seem to have. With the demise of Lady, I think we can rest assured that Sansa is a mere mortal with no magic on her side, just her wits.

Speaking of wits, I was even more impressed with Sansa during the impromptu trial. She rode the perfect middle line between the two parties. If she said it was Joffrey's fault, she would have faced horrible consequences. Little did she know, those consequences were coming anyway. She also didn't side with Joffrey, incriminating her sister. All this made it extra hard to see Lady go. Just like Sansa, she's good and follows the rules (sitting and staying like a CHAMP! you go Lady!) and is slaughtered by association. Welcome to being a Stark, little dove.

Upon reflection, the Dany learns cowgirl storyline is way more eye-rolling this time around. After getting raped every night, why in the world would she care about "making the Khal happy?" Maybe she was being political. Maybe what she really meant was "how can I enjoy sex a little bit to avoid all this rape?" Either way, it's cheesy as heck.

[gingerella]

Ahhhh Pup!!! Greetings from the Old Gods...(née, I do not follow the New Gods...) Welcome to the official Spitball Wall Rewatch, so glad you are joining in with us.