Damon Salvatore: He'll Kill You With His Smolder

[starfury303]

He'll be back in 6.01, is my bet.  Possibly even human, although I'm guessing no on that since they just did the ex-vampire plot with Katherine in season 5.  There will have to be a spanner in the works for the Damon/Elena relationship, though, so I'm thinking lasting amnesia. 

[Cattitude]

Oh I don't think he'll be back until at least 6.05. Like this season with Stefan they will have some sort of set-up with all the people left behind and some drama about bringing them back. Now Damon will still be shown where ever he is and also I'm sure Elena will have dreams about him but I don't think he'll be back among the group for a few episodes.

 

I think Enzo and Alaric have to have some establishing story first and Elena really needs to be a vampire by herself for a little bit too.

 

I just hope when he returns they throw an epic party. I miss the good parties and if anyone would throw a part for coming back it would be Damon. Drunk Dancing Damon(say that five times ha!) is Meow sexy!

 

After it has settled a bit I don't mind Damon being gone for a LITTLE while as long as he is still shown, but he can't be gone for good....he just can't!

Edited May 21, 2014 by Cattitude

[2Old2BAFangirl]

 

Considering the fact that something about Damon trended on twitter for a good 24 hours after the season finale, and the fact that Plec and Dries love Ian to death, I still say he'll be back by 6x02 at the latest. This isn't like it was with Stefan. Sadly, the writers cater to the whim of every Damon stan and Delena fan 24/7 and what they want is Damon.

 

From your lips to their ears, hopefully.

 

As a Damon fan, I'm still waiting to have my every whim catered to by Plec and Dries.  They've really been falling down on the job these last 2 seasons. 

 

I have been far from happy with Damon's story this season but you won't see me in the Stefan thread bashing on Stefan to justify my dissatisfaction.  IMO, Plec and Dries have catered to no one other than themselves with their convoluted storylines for S5.

 

I'm not the most articulate poster but I'm going to give it a shot on how they've trashed Delena, Stelena, Damon and Stefan this season.

Delena - they took 3+ seasons of organic relationship growth and turned it into nothing but sex.  The Delena relationship was built on a connection and on the ability to just say what they thought to each other as well as sexual attraction.  What we got was " all I wanna do is bang you" and nothing else.  Oh wait, yeah, "we're toxic together", forgot we got that too.  Delena pretty much trashed.

 

Stelena - they took 3+ seasons of that relationship and used it to make their Silas/Qetsiyah BS work.  False prophecies, Traveler spells and mindgames are what they reduced that relationship to.  IMO, Stelena pretty much trashed.  At least they let them be friends somewhat at the end, so there's that, I guess.

 

Stefan - Stefan has always been flawed but he was generally trying to be good and bury those faults.  After having him drown all summer, they made him lose all his memories and guess what happened then?  Stefan is an asshole without his memories.  He was a jerk to everyone but Caroline because his brother "stole his girlfriend and his girlfriend let him".  Huh?  If he didn't remember Elena, why would he care?  Then they had him sleeping with Katherine and defending her to everyone. Then they put him back up on his moral high horse so he could judge people with Caroline.  It was only towards the end that they let him be the Stefan I have always, (somewhat resentfully, dammit!) loved.  But not without all that trashing of Stefan first.

 

Damon - Damon has always been flawed as well.  I won't deny he's done some pretty awful things over the years but he was learning.  He's taken forever to do it but he was growing.  Yeah, all that erased when Katherine broke up with him.  Just gone.  I mean, really, Jeremy again?  C'mon!  The Deremy relationship has been rocky and complicated but those two honestly care about each other regardless of what they say.  The Damon who reached out and hugged Jeremy after hearing Bonnie was dead - to being good with Enzo killing him?  No.  Ridiculous BS.  Even the writers couldn't keep track!  If Damon was far enough off the rails to be fine with killing Jeremy, why bother showing his hurt face when Stefan told him to go away and never come back?  There are plenty more examples but I'm starting to bore myself, so anyway, Damon trashed.

 

S5 overall just stank.  It's become very clear to me that Kevin Williamson was the one with the creativity and Julie Plec was fine writing under his tutelage.  Left on her own, she's terrible and she's passed that onto Caroline Dries.  I hope they do better with S6, I really do. 

[2Old2BAFangirl]

The new information Stefan received was that he and Elena used to date.  Elena and Damon were now dating.  He jumped to his brother stole his girlfriend and she let him.  To accurately process the information, maybe he could've used more details instead of jumping to conclusions and rushing off to feed on someone? 

 

I'm gonna stand by my points as I actually like both brothers.  I really dislike bashing one to prop up the other, IMO they've both done bad and they've both done good. And we're all entitled to our opinions, so I'll respect them even if I don't agree with them.

[fantique]

It's funny because, on paper, I didn't like Damon. He seemed so boring to me, I couldn't even muster a damn to dislike him. I could see him almost too clearly. I knew where he was going, what his motivations where and how he would be by the end of the season. A bad boy no more because we realise poor wittle him is not responsible for his actions... Everyone hurt him and that's why he is all about being awful and killing just to disturb his brother's peace. OK. WTH? Everyone kept telling me he is so fun but to me it was more that he was "having fun" and I was supposed to buy the idea that is how vampires live it up. Honestly I think character development for Damon after season 2 has been meh. I think the nuances come from the acting not the writing. Kevin Williamson and Ian Somerhalder obviously understood each other and had a vision for the character that has changed since. I liked that at first he wasn't interested in Elena because Kat was "the one" and that everyone knew he loved Elena before he did. Because despite the whole flirting routine, I do think he was trying not to repeat the past. His chances were slim if the precedent was anything to go by. What frustrated me in S3 was the back and forth between pursuing Elena and then guilt-tripping them both over it. Just go after her once everything is sorted and you don't owe everything to your brother whose girlfriend you are trying to poach. But my guess is that his insecurity was telling him that on equal footing he has no chance with Elena. And then S4 was ridiculous because really, he should have been smarter than to sleep with Elena on the night she broke up with Stefan. I mean he could have just been happy and taken it slow... It's like the whole "if she cheated with me, she can cheat on me" thing. It was over and they only kissed while she was still "debating" but shouldn't her back and forth make him want to be cautious? Make sure she is not making an overly emotional decision? He loved her and waited that long, a bit more time wouldn't have killed him.

And one of the relationships I liked seeing was the Salvatore brothers', so him becoming the moon to Planet Elena (and vice versa) was sad to watch. It always felt like in his happy place, he gets the girl and his brother.  An entire summer without seeing Stefan and he could careless? He knew Stefan was at least happy for him, he really thought his brother wouldn't text him? Did he even try to contact him? Because Stefan doesn't seem the type to not respond. He did lighten up for a bit and I was impressed that while the DoppelFate bothered him he didn't seem to obsess over it. Cue the stupidest storyline ever; Augustine vampire. It was boring and while I felt for him and liked to see a new Bromance, the fact that he brought up resentment against Stefan for not finding and saving him when he just did the same the past summer? Pot. Kettle. Black. Felt sorry for him, and then he goes and reveals the revenge plan... Really? I get his emotions were off and he was pissed but how did they think a revelation like that was going to go down? They jsut used it as fodder for the break-up-a-paloosa that ensued. Bo-f**king-ring. Then the Kat-as-Elena thing, resulting in killing Aaron. Almost killing Jeremy. That was a 1 step forward, 1000 steps backwards. What were they trying to say? That as bad as he's been while on the show he was worse before? That Delena is a sucky mess that is unhealthy and boring? There were many ways to cause mayhem, that was a stupid one. If that's how Damon loves and a manifestation of "how much power she has over him" then they should just pull a Romeo & Juliet and kill themselves. The whole separation was stupid and useless because everyone knew they wouldn't last long apart. But I did command him for saying that he couldn't be her "friend" and also staying calm about Enzo dying. He was annoying when throwing a tantrum at Bonnie, like a) it was her fault Stegan died and b) she didn't have motivation to help. Dude she is guaranteed to disappear. Threatening her with death is redundant at this point.

The goodbye speech (overkill IMO) was confusing, complete with retcons and nonsensical pseudo romantic BS. 'I peaked.'??? Is that supposed to be a good thing? Like 'Oh baby, really it's ok because it was just going to suck after that!'. And it was obviously suppose to make the audience swoon since Elena couldn't hear him. They need to coordinate more and make sure there is continuity accross episodes and seasons. The character arcs should be pre-set regardless of who writes a certain episode or who is in charge of the writing team at large. Otherwise they do things that are not just not to the audience's liking but inconsistent so they can't even stick to their guns because the story telling is weak. But hey, the finale left me with the feeling of a reset button being pushed so maybe they will revamp (no pun intended) the show and see what went wrong and what went right over the course of the show.

Acting wise I do think that IS has a hold of the character. The crazy face is intentional, the mask of indifference no matter what the situation is demiberate. I heard him say that "Damon is a guy who jas the same exppression whether he is saving a kitten from a tree or ripping your face off". So it's only one note and incompetence if it's accidental and the actor doesn't know how to express emotion. Here the lack of variety everywhere but his eyes informs that he is always with his walls up.

Also if one wants to compare IS and PW's acting, then you have to only compare with when PW is regualr Stefan. You can't say that because he played multiple personalities in one body he is better. Silas is not Stefan, amnesia Stefan is another person because he has no memories and Ripper Stefan is what I would imagine a person on a psychotic break would be compared to their "normal" self. Who is to say that Ian would be unable to portray a different persnality? I know the differences of flashback Human Damon were a lot more striking and effective than those of flashback Human Stefan.  I don't like one more than the other, their styles and approach are so different that I can see where the strength lies in both performances.

Edited May 26, 2014 by fantique

[truthaboutluv]

From Home episode thread...

 

They've atoned for their sins and have been forgiven for them, why is it so impossible to accept and forgive Damon for his?  It seems that he, more than any other character (except maybe Stefan) is actually tortured by his misdeeds.

 

 

YMMV but for me that's one of the very reasons I don't care for Damon because I DON'T and HAVE NEVER seen him be tortured by his misdeeds. I am still waiting for Damon to give Caroline a sincere apology for what he did to her. And instead, all we had was after she transitioned to a vampire, Plec and company threw in that one lame moment where she shoved him and told him he sucked, while he smirked through the scene (his usual expression) and that was it. And since then she's hated him and threw snarky comments his way while he acts like she's that annoying dumb blonde friend of Elena's he puts up with. Same with Jeremy. Elena had to put him on the spot and ask him point blank if he knew Jeremy was wearing the ring when he snapped his neck, to which he finally said no and that was it.

 

Still no real apology. Again he spent most of that episode smirking and trying to snark his way through the situation. And this season, this is the same guy who said to Matt that if it were not for Katherine making him think she was in the tomb, he never would have come to Mystic Falls and so would never have had a chance to murder his sister. So it was really all Katherine's fault, apparently as was everything else he's done because "she ruined him..." Yeah Damon's really suffering for his misdeeds.

 

Yet in scene after scene we see Damon continually torment and abuse himself over the things he's done in the past.

 

 

We have...when? Yeah he and Elena had their one lame ass conversation about how bad and awful he is and how toxic their relationship is and they were right back in bed seconds later and the next episode he was back to smirking and trying to get her to ignore all that and get back in bed with him. Damon's only "torture" as far as I can tell has been over his so called amazing, super passionate love for precious Elena. Those are the times I see his being tormented, when he supposedly couldn't have her. But torment for the shitty way he's treated people and the shit he's done...no.

 

And may I just point out for future reference....Jeremy is not dead.  So from where I sit, continuously bringing it up to Damon that he killed Jeremy is a moot point since ya know, he's not dead.

 

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I've always said my issue is Damon TRYING to kill Jeremy twice and the fact is he did kill him once. He just happened to be wearing a magical ring at the time that Damon was unaware of. So he snapped a very human, 16 year old Jeremy's neck with every intention of leaving him dead. Jeremy's conveniently wearing a magical ring does not negate or make any less shitty and asshole Damon's actions. And for what...because Elena told him she couldn't be more than his friend. She didn't laugh in his face, laugh at his feelings, mistreat him, she was actually very kind and understanding but how dare she say that she wasn't willing to go bang him across a wall while with his brother.

 

So for that he would make her pay and do so by snapping her brother's neck. I have said it before and I will say it again, I don't care how many tally points of other people's crimes and actions is brought up to "even" the score, that will ALWAYS in my opinion be one of the shittiest and awful things on that show and the reason why any little respect I had for Elena was gone with her jumping on Damon's dick after all that. And then to have him try to murder Jeremy AGAIN this season and once again...no apology. But hey, Elena's happy to once again say screw Jeremy and go on her suicide mission with Damon.

 

​Damon killed Jeremy?  Well, for a time Jeremy was trying to kill his sister.

 

 

Because he was a hunter who was predisposed to kill vampires. He didn't up and go, "oh Elena's kind of a bitch and annoying me so I'll try to kill her". Kind of like Damon's reasonings for snapping Jeremy's neck. Jeremy's hunter tendencies were what were making him want to hurt Elena and he was doing everything to fight against it. So I cannot on any level see the comparison to that versus "oh you won't sleep with me even if you're with my brother...okay I'll snap your brother's neck".

 

Damon was a dick to Caroline?  Well, she slept with a psychotic Original.

 

 

Yes and the writers had her do so for that very reason - so many can now say, "where does Caroline get off being so bitchy about Damon when she banged Klaus". And to that I say screw that. Sleeping with Klaus was shitty and horrible to Tyler. Does not negate Damon's actions towards her and he was more than "just a dick". He was violent, emotionally and physically abusive and a rapist.

 

Damon killed Stefan's buddy?  Well, Stefan was the reason Damon became a vampire to begin with.

 

 

Actually if we really want to be accurate, Damon was the reason Stefan became a vampire and it actually all came back to Katherine. Damon knew who and what Katherine was and was more than stupidly willing to become a vampire too just to have her. But more than that, he knew she was mind controlling Stefan to have him okay with her being a vampire and feeding him her blood. We can always wonder what would have happened had Stefan not been mind controlled. Maybe he would have gone right to his father and exposed Katherine for what she was and then he never becomes a vampire. So yeah that little tale the writers spun in S1 to begin Damon's so called redemption arc never flew with me. And hell, this season the writers had him saying Katherine is who ruined him and made him who he is.

 

I will just say also that I actually don't think the characters on the show point fingers at each other. It seems that way more because of the debates that happen on boards like this. In other words it's the viewers pointing the fingers and comparing crimes. But in the fictional world Alaric considers Damon his best friend and he tried to or did murder him multiple times, Jeremy always eventually gets over the murder attempts, Stefan is one of Damon's biggest enablers, right next to Elena who's been doing it since before they were together. The only person who hates Damon is Caroline and I just am forever baffled by any notion that she has no right or she's a hypocrite to feel that way towards him after what that asshole did to her.

 

My feeling about Damon is and always will be that I don't think he ever apologizes for anything or actually suffers any real consequences for anything. Plec and company has Damon do shitty actions and always seem to think that Somerholder's eye twitching and smirking is enough to get past it. But more than that, I will always say that almost every character's bad actions can be explained away as trying to save someone else, choosing between someone's life over another, not being fully themselves. etc. but Damon's actions were often for no other reason that he was annoyed or his woobie feelings were hurt. It's like the hell? That is why I have never and will never "just get over his actions because other people do shitty things too..."

Edited June 4, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Carrie Ann]

ITA with the above, and not trying to pile on, but I'm gonna address a few other points in the original post.

 

I don't think any character on this show has even any semblance of a leg to stand on while throwing judgment Damon's way for all the shitty things he's done.  Every character has used every other character for their own selfish reasons either because they were pushed into it or went "off the rails".

 

Matt Donovan has a pretty strong leg to stand on, and so does Jeremy.

 

Damon killed Jeremy?  Well, for a time Jeremy was trying to kill his sister.

Damon was a dick to Caroline?  Well, she slept with a psychotic Original.
Damon killed Stefan's buddy?  Well, Stefan was the reason Damon became a vampire to begin with.

 

These things are not equal. @truthaboutluv addressed the Jeremy and Stefan issues, so I'll go deeper on Caroline. Damon raped Caroline, then physically and mentally abused her and controlled her actions, for weeks. Her sleeping with Klaus one time doesn't come close, and does not victimize anyone else. Even Tyler or Elena or Stefan, who were all hurt deeply by Klaus, are not victims of Caroline's sex life. No more than Elena or Caroline were victims when Stefan slept with Rebekah or Katherine. I personally don't believe Caroline would be in a relationship with Klaus while he's still an abusive monster, so her loved ones don't have to enable her relationship with someone who has personally victimized them, and who they think is harmful. That is why I still think she can sit in judgment of Elena--until the end of time if she wants to--and it's up to Elena to decide whether she cares. If she really hates it, she can end the friendship or the relationship. It's not up to Caroline to get over it.

 

People are flawed.  Vampires are flawed.  Sometimes Damon is abusive.  Sometimes Stefan is controlling.  Sometimes Elena is a baby (ok, most of the time).  Sometimes Caroline is judgmental.  Shit happens.

 

Once again, I'll point out that these things aren't equal. Caroline being judgmental of her own rapist is not equal to him raping her. Elena being a baby (?) is not equal to Damon killing people when he doesn't get his way. Stefan trying to control other vampires into not feeding on or killing people is not equal to Damon killing them for fun. (Stefan killing out of crazy Ripper urges IS equal to that, for the record.)

 

They've atoned for their sins and have been forgiven for them, why is it so impossible to accept and forgive Damon for his?

 

This is why--I disagree that he has atoned for his sins. Atoning means taking action to make amends. And though he sometimes makes sad faces about things, he usually doesn't actually take responsibility, or apologize, or make changes to his behavior. Or if he does, he doesn't do these things to the person he actually victimized--he does it to Elena. Because he mostly only cares about his bad actions insofar as she cares about them.

 

And the text does not give him appropriate consequences for his actions--instead, he's rewarded for them. Every other character is forced to at least tolerate him, if not outright prop him up, even when it makes no sense for their character. He got the girl, and Season 5 showed that there is nothing Damon can do that is so awful it will cause Elena to leave him. He could kill everyone else in the cast and the whole town and she'd look shocked for a whole hour, and then get over it.

 

Contrast that to what happened to Stefan, post-Ripper stage. He lost himself and his own free will, then Elena died and turned, then he lost her to Damon for good, and then he drowned for three months straight, before losing his memories and then realizing he had no relationship left with the two most important people in his life. He lost everything.

 

We are hopefully on the right track now that Damon's died--I mean, really, that is one step toward the appropriate consequences for his actions. When he returns, I'd like to see that taken further.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[truthaboutluv]

Contrast that to what happened to Stefan, post-Ripper stage. He lost himself and his own free will, then Elena died and turned, then he lost her to Damon for good, and then he drowned for three months straight, before losing his memories and then realizing he had no relationship left with the two most important people in his life. He lost everything.

 

 

And the writers refuse to let him move on even for a little bit because despite everything, despite how much just about every viewer rags on the triangle, they need him love-less and permanently tied to Elena and by extension Damon. This, this right here is what I truly get furious about when I think about the last two seasons of this show and why I'm out for the next season unless I hear something decent for Stefan and some indication that he will be given some damn happiness again.

Edited June 5, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[KatWay]

If you think about it, Damon's pattern of punishing Elena by killing someone she cares about when she really hurts his feelings, is quite disturbing. When she rejected him in S2, he killed Jeremy - and while it was impulsive in some ways, he definitely knew what he was doing too. Now in S5, he even actively went after Aaron - after he felt all proud of himself for not killing him for Elena's sake, I then saw his reaction as "oh really, Elena, you're breaking up with me? In that case, I have no reason to let Aaron go. See what you've done (to me/him)". He didn't just go out and kill some random person (though he did that too), that was deliberate. I seriously doubt though that this is ever going to be addressed by the show.

 

And agreed, I never saw him being sorry about what he did to anyone. Only sorry to cause Elena pain. And it never has consequences for him, not even now, because we all know he'll come back to life, with the writers probably thinking his "sacrifice" (which, really, I have so many problems with on all levels) automatically whitewashes him and puts him above all criticism. 

[Cattitude]

I think a point that might be missed is when Damon does many of his terrible implusive things his humanity switch is off. Unlike some of the others he has better ability to turn it on and off at will.

 

Stefan is finally starting to see that Damon does a lot of his implusive terrible things to hurt himself not others. He uses it to push people away and be who he thinks he is a "terrible monster".

 

Why does Jeremy not want to kill Elena, oh ya Damon's idea fixed that

Who cared so much about Jeremy and Elena that HE made plans that brought Bonnie back, oh ya Damon

Why is Sherrif Forbes alive, oh ya Damon has saved her life more than once

Who kept Tyler from biting Caroline taking the bite himself, oh ya Damon...I could go on.

 

Saying you are sorry doesn't change what you did, Damon knows this. You can't take back killing people, even Stefan knows this. Just b/c Damon hasn't apologized for things he has done does not mean he is not sorry. He shows by his actions that he is sorry.

 

All of them know Damon is volitile but he will do the hard work and make the terrible plans to save them all and in the end HE is the one who didn't come back. How much attonement does he have to make?

When Damon found out he was really dead he just smirked and you could see he felt this was what he deserved. I don't see how you can think he doesn't feel guilty for what he has done.

[truthaboutluv]

This is so creepy, but so true. This is exactly what happens, but it will never be fixed or addressed.

 

Why would it be addressed...it's all part of their "epic" love. This is how much he loves Elena and how passionately obsessed with her he is, that losing her makes him crazed enough to hurt others. Of course interestingly as Katway pointed out, the people he chooses to hurt are ones she cares about so in essence it's really a "fuck you" to her and trying to hurt her. But doesn't matter, it's all part of their "EPIC" love (GAG). I would care a little more if I actually gave a shit about Elena but since I don't, whatever.

 

I maintain those two are as gross and disgusting as Chuck and Blair on Gossip Girl and I care no more about them riding off together as I did those two idiots. That said, my issue for the last two seasons is that while all this is going on, Stefan just keeps getting shit on while I have to try to be sold about Damon's so called pain because fake Elena broke up with him for all of a minute. Whatever...

[KatWay]

 

I think a point that might be missed is when Damon does many of his terrible implusive things his humanity switch is off. Unlike some of the others he has better ability to turn it on and off at will.

 

It's hard to argue this, because the show's portrayal of the humanity switch has been so incredibly inconsistent (why was switch off!Elena a robot who couldn't care less about anyone, for example, when switch off!Damon still cared about Stefan and obsessed about Katherine), but I don't believe this at all. If anything, for Damon his humanity "switch" seems more like a "regulator", which can be adjusted to varying degrees, whatever suits him at the moment. When he killed Aaron's aunt without the slightest hint of remorse, a woman who had never done squat to him, he was also happily shacking up with Elena, in a loving relationship and hanging out with the MF gang. That's not off. That's being a serial killer on the side.

 

When Kathlena broke his heart, we didn't see the tell tale dead eyes close up we saw for Damon after the Augustine years, Enzo later, Elena in S4 or Stefan in S3. He just went off the rails. He was still hurt over Elena, BFFing with Enzo and he even asked Stefan and Elena to stay away after he was injected with the serum. He clearly was capable of feeling, he just didn't give a shit about Aaron or the other people. I think Damon's like Enzo: prefectly capable of off-handedly murdering people while also being completely fine and having friends and loves. Switch on and all.

[truthaboutluv]

I think Damon's like Enzo: prefectly capable of off-handedly murdering people while also being completely fine and having friends and loves. Switch on and all.

 

 

Yes and because dumb and dumber, that would be Plec and Dries have their lady boners over Damon, they've decided to add the second version of him as a regular. Yes because Damon alone wasn't annoying enough, we need Enzo in the mix. Reason again, I have no desire to return to this shit-fest next season.

[Cattitude]

Well of course most vampires are capable of killing people even with their switch on. Killing people is not equal to being a serial killer as a vampire unless you consider ALL vampires serial killers. Vampires kill people it IS part of their nature.

 

I begrudge Damon NOTHING for killing all the Whitmores and I actually liked his murderous plan over the years. These people tortured him for 5 years and Enzo for 40. I thought it was a brillant revenge plan. Enzo and Damon are kind of like POWs they are altered forever b/c of the torture they went through. Heck Stefan was only tortured for 3 months and almost didn't survive it. And I was never so happy to see someone die as that mopey Aaron.

 

Damon is an old vampire with many years of switching his humanity on and off. Elena was a new vampire her switch had never been triggered before.

 

Not that is a Stefan thread, but since it keeps getting brought up. Stefan will NEVER be happy b/c Stefan is a vampire and can't stand being one. Stefan is not a happy person.

[truthaboutluv]

Speaking of that Whitmore/Augustine crap. While I often am just rolling my eyes and hoping for the next scene to start during most, if not all Damon and especially Elena scenes, that storyline was one of many things that made no sense this season. So Damon has this super calculating plan of murdering every single Whitmore except for one every generation so he could kill another set over and over again. Okay fair enough...

 

Yet in all his planning, plotting, the Augustine society manages to continue and not only continue but thrive at a university a mere couple of miles away from Mystic Falls and he has no clue. Not to mention that Enzo, the so-called BFF we were being sold at the end of the season he cared about so much, was still there trapped in that house. And he had no clue. Yet we were supposed to believe he'd been meticulously for decades and generations watching this family. Uh-huh...

Edited June 5, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Jads]

The Augustine storyline was literally the stupidest thing in the whole of season 5. It just had Damon look like a complete moron. He clearly knows about the Whitmore family and their association with Whitmore college. Yet he let's the EPIC love of his life go there to study despite there being a secret vampire hating society there. Whoa, really?

If they had just left Damon as a murderous vampire, I could live with that, but Plec and Dries keep trying to paint him as a great romantic hero. If they want to redeem him, that's fine, just redeem him properly. The inconsistencies

[Cattitude]

Well maybe the issue is WANTING him to be redeemed. I like vampires to act like vampires I don't need Damon to be redeemed.

 

Damon has a charcter flaw as do ALL the characters. His flaw is being emotionally inmature at times. He realizes he has this flaw and is trying to work on it but as with most character flaws they are hard to totally overcome, so he keeps moving two steps forward and one step back. He only began to actively want to work on it about 2 yrs ago so it is only natural he would have mis-steps, heck Stefan has been working on his for 100yrs and even he has mis-steps.

 

I don't see most of the other characters actively trying to correct their own character flaws, at least Damon is trying.

Despite his character flaw Damon has a lot of good qualities. He is not totally defined by one aspect of his life. It is good that at least the other characters in MF realize and appriciate this.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Cattitude

[Cattitude]

Thanks for the clarification. I thought I was watching reality tv all this time.

 

I'm well aware of what kind of a show this is, but I still expect the characters I watch to have some semblance of sanity. You wanna have your male lead smirking and killing, raping, and torturing people? Fine. But don't do a half assed attempt at redeeming him or having the audience try to sympathize with his whiny, bitch ass because of some lame back story introduced seasons in to the show and because you need your female lead to not look completely insane and like a bad person because she is with him. 

 

Keep the asshole the asshole. Can't have it both ways..

I guess it's all in the way you preceive it. I see it more as adding layers to why he is the way he is. I like that a lot of his history is added slowly, just like when he and Stefan went to NOLA trying to break the sire bond thing and Stefan learned that Damon purposely didn't go to Europe with hims FOR him. Zing to you judgemental Stefan.

 

I never look at it as trying to recon Damon to look better, more that he isn't one dementional. He has both good and bad in him. That has been shown since season 1 and these little bits we learn along the way just reinforce it.

 

To me it is kind of the reverse we got with Stefan. We were introduced to a sanitzed version of the real Stefan and his bad side was introduced along the way.

[Lisin]

Guys, the argument is fine, (if a bit exhausting) but please keep it civil. I'm not liking the tone of some of this. I won't edit anything at the moment but I'll have to if you continue to "call each other out" in posts. 

[CaughtOnTape]

I don't see most of the other characters actively trying to correct their own character flaws, at least Damon is trying.

 

Pretty much.  

 

Like I said, no character is void of making mistakes where their vampirism is concerned or humanity is off.  About the only person who could really smack Damon around with the morality argument is Matt and since he clearly doesn't seem to have a problem, I don't see why I should.

The Whitmores are a plot device that I was never introduced to save the brainless college student that Damon killed.  I never got a chance to care about them as characters or understand their motivations.  Hence why I don't give a shit they're dead and Damon killed them.  Just like I don't care about the two women Stefan beheaded and tore apart during his ripper phase with Klaus.  

 

I have NEVER taken this show as trying to redeem Damon.  I've always viewed it as the other characters having to grapple with the fact that they have both loved and hated him at times.  He doesn't always do the things people think he should do and he doesn't always make the right decision.  He makes shitty choices.  He hurts people.  But if you're gonna have Elena and Stefan love and protect him then they need to come to terms with the shitty things he does, because it doesn't look like he's going to change any time soon.  As with any other relationship in life, they need to decide what their deal breaker is.  Apparently neither have hit that yet.  Damon has consistently been an asshole when it comes to people he doesn't give a shit about and aren't in his immediate circle and to be honest, most people I know are like that.  

[Bitterswete]

About the only person who could really smack Damon around with the morality argument is Matt and since he clearly doesn't seem to have a problem, I don't see why I should.

 

I don't judge a character's actions on whether or not other characters have done bad stuff too. So the other characters don't have to be perfect angels for me to think the things Damon does are heinous, cruel, petty, reprehensible, squicky, etc. Other characters doing bad things doesn't make the crap Damon pulls okay. (Although I sometimes think that's what the writers are going for.)

 

I also don't agree with this idea that if a character has ever done something wrong in their entire lives, they lose the right to think something Damon does is wrong. Because a person doesn't have to be a saint to think Damon shouldn't go around killing innocent people.

 

Every character on the show, no matter what they've done themselves, has the right to call Damon out on his crap. Then he has the right to call them out on whatever bad thing he thinks they've done. But the other character would still be right about his actions being crappy.

 

The Whitmores are a plot device that I was never introduced to save the brainless college student that Damon killed.  I never got a chance to care about them as characters or understand their motivations.  Hence why I don't give a shit they're dead and Damon killed them.

 

I don't have to know a one-shot character well to think them being slaughtered is bad, or for that to affect my view of the character that did it.

 

When a regular character does something like this to a walk-on (who might not even have lines), it's not really about the walk-on. It's about what the regular did, and what that says about them.

 

So it wasn't about the Whitmores. It was about the fact that even while Damon was in MF doing various "good" things (or at least not being as bad as he was when the show started), and acting like he was progressing to some degree, he was still the same old Damon, out their murdering innocent people out of pettiness and spite.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Bitterswete

[CaughtOnTape]

I don't judge a character's actions on whether or not other characters have done bad stuff too. So the other characters don't have to be perfect angels for me to think the things Damon does are heinous, cruel, petty, reprehensible, squicky, etc. Other characters doing bad things doesn't make the crap Damon pulls okay. (Although I sometimes think that's what the writers are going for.)

 

I also don't agree with this idea that if a character has ever done something wrong in their entire lives, they lose the right to think something Damon does is wrong. Because a person doesn't have to be a saint to think Damon shouldn't go around killing innocent people.

 

Every character on the show, no matter what they've done themselves, has the right to call Damon out on his crap. Then he has the right to call them out on whatever bad thing he thinks they've done. But the other character would still be right about his actions being crappy.

 

The difference here being....he doesn't.  He doesn't point fingers at other people for what they do or how they've screwed up.  He accepts it and fixes the problem...or at least tries to.  And no, they don't have to be a saint...but the sanctimonious tone some of the characters take on with regard to him is hypocritical and for some of the audience, is why they take Damon's side.

 

I think that's the problem with a lot of why the other side of the audience finds it hard to forgive Damon for his transgressions.  They believe he's being written as a character who's trying to change, whereas a good majority of us don't see it that way.  Damon has never once uttered the words that he wanted to do better or be better for Elena or anyone else.  In fact, he's told her several times that he's an asshole and she should stay away.  If Elena chooses to stay with him, that's on her and I can understand why some audience members take issue with it.  However, relationships are messy and not every relationship is 100% perfection, where the two people in it are supportive all the time and always do the right thing.  And to be honest, I don't really want to watch that anyway.  Sorry to the Stelena lovers, but they are boring as hell to watch.  And their relationship wasn't perfect either.  I don't consider one ship any worse then the other.  It becomes a matter of which relationship offends the viewer least in this instance.

 

From where I sit, the writers have been pretty consistent with Damon.  He's one of the only characters who hasn't ping ponged back and forth from good guy to questionable behavior, he walks the line pretty closely.  He's also the only character on this show not to be a judgmental, sanctimonious, hypocrite.  He is who he is and the other characters can take him or leave him.

 

And not for nothing, but Stefan was/is way more fun to watch when he's being an asshole.  You can also tell Paul enjoys those scenes more where he's allowed to let loose.  That is probably another part of the reason why Damon has such a big following, he gets to play that aspect all the time, not just when the writers give him an excuse to.

Edited June 6, 2014 by CaughtOnTape

[Cattitude]

I'm in the minority who actually kind of liked the Whitmore plot. I didn't really like the way it played out so quickly, I thought it could have been tons better longer term plot than switching to those horrible travelers. I thought Dr. Westfield was a good villian b/c I actually loathed him as opposed to Markos who I gave no fucks about.

 

I thought as an evil revenge plot what Damon did was brilliant. Keep in mind he only did this for 50ish years not like 500 or anything. We are talking two generations. If his revenge instead would have been to wipe out all Whitmores in 1958 then those generations would have had no life, if anything at least they got some life this way. Torcher leads to pretty strong revenge feelings add to that he had to let Enzo down after Enzo had been his rock. I have no problem with him slowly exacting his revenge over 50 years in a vampire way.

I guess he should have just killed all the Whitmores in 1958 and Aaron would have never been.

 

Damon is a vampire who acts like a vampire. Elena is a vampire who per her own report to Jessi thinks being a vampire is awesome. There doesn't need to be any justification for a vampire to love another vampire even if said vampire does vampire things. Kind of what Stefan told Elena in 05:21.

 

I love hot smokin' sexy Damon the killer vampire. M-E-O-W!

[KatWay]

 

I guess he should have just killed all the Whitmores in 1958 and Aaron would have never been.

He should have just killed the people who actually did these things to him. Not their totally innocent other family and descendants. And fine, he was switched off and all, but then he should have stopped when he switched it on again. Because since he didn't, there really is no difference morality wise to Damon with or without humanity, is there? He might make more of an effort to please Elena and push down his murderous impulses, but he still doesn't think it's wrong or bad. He still does whatever he wants to do.

 

I guess at least that's consistent since Damon was also helping Katherine kill people as a human. In some ways I suppose he really was made to be a vampire - he never saw anything wrong with murder.

 

And I don't think being a vampire excuses all the stuff he does. Yeah, Elena, Stefan, Caroline have all killed innocents but when they are in their right mind, they usually don't. Or at least try to avoid it. Maybe even feel bad about it. Damon just doesn't give a crap. That may make him the best vampire out of them but it also makes me disgusted at the fact that Plec and Dries try to sell him as the bad boy with the heart of gold (and that is how they're selling it). This ain't Breaking Bad where you're rooting for the bad guy. Shows like that, they consciously portray their protagonists as awful beings. The Vampire Diaries has not shown any such self-consciousness that most of their characters are awful. The writers keep gushing about their hard journeys, "minor" setbacks and how Damon has to love himself so he can be worthy of Elena's special love. Ugh.

 

That's the thing for me - I loved Damon in Season 1. But he was a villain. I thought they'd slowly evolve him into a grey character, often on their side, but never completely. Then they had him kill Jeremy in the Season 2 premiere to punish Elena for rejecting him and then spent the entire season basically painting Damon as this poor angsty woobie who just needed to be loved. This gap between what they show him doing and how they want the audience to react to this (straightforward sympathising instead of feeling a kind of horror/fascination like in S1) has been there ever since.

[truthaboutluv]

I think that's the problem with a lot of why the other side of the audience finds it hard to forgive Damon for his transgressions.  They believe he's being written as a character who's trying to change, whereas a good majority of us don't see it that way.

 

 

Can't speak for anyone else but nope, that's not why I dislike him. I dislike him because I firmly believe that he has no interest in being anything but an asshole. From where I sit, Damon fans are the ones who pull out the "well others have done bad things and they get forgiven and people move on so why not him." And from where I sit it's because these people have all had struggles for their actions and for many of them tried to atone while he hasn't and if that's how he's meant to be written - fine. Just don't expect me to think it's cute, charming, interesting or adorable. Instead I find it predictable and annoying and repetitive.

 

Damon has never once uttered the words that he wanted to do better or be better for Elena or anyone else.

 

 

Actually when Fake Elena broke up with him, he whined to her that she couldn't leave him because he didn't know how to be good without her and without  her loving him. Which is when Katherine even while she was being fake Elena and was only interested in having Stefan said something that might have been the best thing said on this hot ass mess of a show in many seasons, "she should not be his reason for wanting to be a better person. That is too much responsibility on her and it's not fair to put that on her..." Of course all that got dismissed because Katherine was pretending to be Elena and she's the "villain". So the sentiment got entirely ignored so Plec and Dries could continue on their merry ride of the disgusting toxic crap that is Delena that we're supposed to view as being an "epic love."

 

However, relationships are messy and not every relationship is 100% perfection, where the two people in it are supportive all the time and always do the right thing.

 

 

Yes relationships are messy but they are not all disgusting, unhealthy pit of co-dependency where a breakup sends the guy spiraling into murder rampages that include threatening the life of the only family the girl he claims to love so much, has. And her response to it is to find someone else to blame because god forbid he ever be forced to own and take responsibility for his actions. And when in a moment of rare maturity he acknowledges the complete and utter pit of toxicity they are, it's only to have her say she can't leave him because their love is so epic you understand it's almost an addiction. Yes girls and women there's your epic love story - isn't it so amazing and passionate. I guess it's a good thing I outgrew my tween "omg unhealthy, possessive, toxic relationships are so hot because omg the guy is so hot and they have smoking sex scenes..." Yeah I'll pass. 

 

Sorry to the Stelena lovers, but they are boring as hell to watch.  And their relationship wasn't perfect either.  I don't consider one ship any worse then the other.  It becomes a matter of which relationship offends the viewer least in this instance.

 

 

And this is why I hate shows centered around love triangles and why I avoided this one for two seasons. It always becomes this either/or. Like to hate Damon and Elena must mean you ship her and Stefan. Well let me speak for us neutral shippers who watch the show, I don't ship either pairings because I do and always have hated Elena. Seriously...I dislike that bitch more than Damon who I just find tedious to be honest. 

 

But that being said, the only reason I was able to tolerate Stefan/Elena, not like mind you, but tolerate, is because Elena still maintained some semblance of herself and her independence in that relationship. One of my favorite moments on the show is still Elena, tearily but honestly, telling Stefan she didn't want to be a vampire, that she wanted a family and she wanted to grow old. Also her family and friends still seemed to matter to her but now, not so much. I don't see that Elena any more. Elena now is just incredibly whiny and self-involved and gives a shit about nothing more than Damon's dick as far as I'm concerned and it's sad. But whatever, I don't care if they stay together because I damn sure don't want her anywhere near Stefan again.

 

What I need is for this show to stop being centered so much around their shitty ass relationship and for Stefan to be given some kind of happiness and a life away from the annoying ex-girlfriend and douchebag brother.

Edited June 6, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Bitterswete]

The difference here being....he doesn't.  He doesn't point fingers at other people for what they do or how they've screwed up.  He accepts it and fixes the problem...or at least tries to.  And no, they don't have to be a saint...but the sanctimonious tone some of the characters take on with regard to him is hypocritical and for some of the audience, is why they take Damon's side.

 

Whether someone's tone is sanctimonious is subjective. (A lot has to do with how a viewer already feels about a character.) But just because Damon chooses not to call other people out  doesn't mean he should be exempt from having other people call him on his crap. And it doesn't make the crap he pulls less bad.

 

Although, as someone above mentioned, he does like to shift blame for his own behavior onto other people. ("Yeah, I did this bad thing, but you made me!") Which is kind of worse then someone sounding a little prissy when they tell him he shouldn't go around murdering people.

 

I think that's the problem with a lot of why the other side of the audience finds it hard to forgive Damon for his transgressions.  They believe he's being written as a character who's trying to change,

 

I've liked a lot of characters who looked like they might change for the better, only for them to go back to the dark side. I might have been disappointed, but I still loved the characters. So, no, that's not my problem with Damon.

 

Also, it's not about forgiving Damon either. I have loved characters who've done things I consider unforgivable. They are still great characters.

 

Really, me not loving Damon to bits is no big mystery. It's just that I've seen characters like him before, but done so much better. And I've seen what the writers seem to be trying to do with him done before. Only, again, so much better.

 

Sorry to the Stelena lovers, but they are boring as hell to watch.

 

I do tend to like healthy relationships more than toxic, "We're so bad for each other, but just can't help it," types of relationships in shows. (While those can be fun to watch, I usually get bored with them eventually.) In fact I remember, back when the show started, Stefan/Elena  being one of the things it was most praised for. That they were so healthy (not perfect, but not toxic either), but still  romantic and enjoyable to watch.

 

So while you might have found Stefan/Elena boring, that doesn't mean every viewer did.

[CaughtOnTape]

So while you might have found Stefan/Elena boring, that doesn't mean every viewer did.

 

Touche and something a great many people need to remember about this show, especially concerning this particular character.

[Lisin]

Ok gang, I've deleted several posts and issued some warnings. Remember the main rule of this board is Don't Be A Dick, being a dick includes but is not limited to being very sarcastic and passive aggressive to other posters you can snark the show all you want, don't snark each other. Additionally, at this point the Stefan/Damon argument is getting very repetitive, another aspect of DBAD is realizing that your opinion isn't the only valid one, no one is right or wrong here, everyone likes what/who they like and that's fine. Let's all agree to disagree and hug it out now ok? Thanks. 

[miss-vanilla]

What is interesting about the character of Damon is that no matter the Forum, message board or fansite, he is the most discussed character by far.. Love him or hate him, he invokes the most passionate responses from fans. Credit for this must go to the writers and for IS portrayal of this complex, layered character. they are obviously doing something right.

Personally, I love him, flaws and all, and without him this show would have fizzled out long ago.

[truthaboutluv]

I have never bought into the "well this person/character has many pages of discussion so they must be doing something right or it means they're so complex and layered." Sometimes it just means that the writers have made the character do so many shitty things that their fans often have to vehemently defend said actions while others argue that no, they're just shitty actions - see Chuck Bass on GG. But then again maybe it's also because I'm one of those who as surprising as it may seem, does not really hate Damon but rather find the character more tedious than anything. What I passionately disagree with and argue against are the comments that either excuse/defend the character's actions. I actually don't find Damon that complex or layered.

 

As for the show fizzling out without him - I personally think TVD worked because the casting for all three leads was well done. Like I have always acknowledged that as much as I hate Elena, I have nothing but respect for the work Nina does on that show and I think Paul is greatly underrated by some because for so long he was the "nice guy" to Damon's so called "complex/layered bad boy." And goodness knows it's not like the writers have given him shit to do in the last two seasons. But I personally think he has shown far more range between playing "normal" Stefan, Ripper Stefan, Silas, etc. Even the Tom character in the brief bits we saw of him seemed so different from Stefan. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[miss-vanilla]

I have never bought into the "well this person/character has many pages of discussion so they must be doing something right or it means they're so complex and layered." Sometimes it just means that the writers have made the character do so many shitty things that their fans often have to vehemently defend said actions while others argue that no, they're just shitty actions - see Chuck Bass on GG. But then again maybe it's also because I'm one of those who as surprising as it may seem, does not really hate Damon but rather find the character more tedious than anything. What I passionately disagree with and argue against are the comments that either excuse/defend the character's actions. I actually don't find Damon that complex or layered.

 

 

Exactly my point, his actions, good, bad, shitty or not still invoke the most passionate responses. Criticism or defence, it is still a reaction. Damon as a character is pretty divisive, his actions can be viewed several ways, and often are, that is evident in the fandom. 

[KatWay]

Well, obviously Damon polarises. He's an unrepentant serial killer presented as the woobie bad boy with the heart of gold. Or just plain serial killer, depending on the episode. That's not complex so much as it is slightly schizophrenic.

 

In his defense, he is hot, brings the snark and used to be entertaining before the boring suckfest Delena ruined even that this season. But the writers seem to be under the impression they can take Damon as far as they want and the fans will still love him (that is, verbatim, what they said in an interview after the Jeremy Murder episode) and that's not true for everyone. With Damon, they took him so far that for me it completely killed the character. And I resent that too, because I loved vaguely villainous Damon in Season 1. But as soon as they went for the triangle for real, obviously they couldn't keep that up, so we got Damon veering between being a normally functioning member of society capable of feeling remorse and love to completely unrepentant, smirking Damon screwing things up because we needed more angst with Elena. What should have been a complex, layered character is in my opinion just a whiny, self-pitying sociopath ruled by his impulses and starry-eyed love for the girl-whose-love-changed-him. Sort-of-changed-him. 

 

That's why I've long said they need to cut this triangle by all ends, and write for Damon as an actual character, not just the D in Delena (hey, maybe before the show ends, we could actually spend some time on the massively complex relationship with his younger brother, who didn't even get a goodbye scene in the S5 finale).

[Carrie Ann]

That's why I've long said they need to cut this triangle by all ends, and write for Damon as an actual character, not just the D in Delena (hey, maybe before the show ends, we could actually spend some time on the massively complex relationship with his younger brother, who didn't even get a goodbye scene in the S5 finale).

Man, it would be cool if they would write for Elena as an actual character again too, but she doesn't exist, so that's a tall order I suppose.

 

And this season more than any would have been a great time to dive deep into the Defan story. It would have made sense from a story perspective because of Stefan's amnesia and PTSD--Damon could have sympathized and prioritized Stefan over Elena/himself for once. Ian and Nina broke up and would probably have appreciated a little less emphasis on Delena. But even in terms of their relationship, it could have made that side of the story stronger, because at one point, Elena gave a shit about Stefan, and maybe seeing Damon love his brother would have actually strengthened her love for him. And maybe also made her recommit to her own familial and friend relationships. Like a person in a healthy relationship would!

 

Even with a refocus on Defan over Delena, I still think they could have hit some of the same plot points, but many of them would have been more powerful if I still believed these brothers had a relationship. Like, who gives a shit that Enzo killed himself? No one. The point was supposed to be that Stefan felt responsible and didn't want Damon to know because he didn't want him to go off the rails again. But wouldn't it have been more powerful if they'd just spent a season re-bonding, and Stefan was worried Damon would turn on him and he didn't want to lose his brother again? Maybe the writers wanted me to believe that, but I don't anymore.

[Bitterswete]

What is interesting about the character of Damon is that no matter the Forum, message board or fansite, he is the most discussed character by far..Love him or hate him, he invokes the most passionate responses from fans.

I tend to talk about Damon a lot because discussions about him tend to bring up issues I feel strongly about. (Like personal responsibility, which is a big issue where his character is concerned.)

 

And as for so many people talking about him being a good thing, I wouldn't say that. In my experience, some of the most hated things in different fandoms are often what end up getting talked about the most as fans vent and try to get what bugs them about the character, episode or storyline off of their chests. So Damon getting talked about a lot doesn't necessarily mean good things. 

 

 

 

Credit for this must go to the writers and for IS portrayal of this complex, layered character.

 

Damon is not a well-developed character. Even in the beginning, when I found his character entertaining, I didn't find him very interesting most of the time. (I say "mostly" because there were moments that had potential, but the show didn't really capitalize on them.)

 

I always felt like Damon was kind of surfacey, and his character felt very familiar to me. And compared to characters I truly consider "deep and complex," Damon barely rates.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Cattitude]

 It would have made sense from a story perspective because of Stefan's amnesia and PTSD--Damon could have sympathized and prioritized Stefan over Elena/himself for once.......and maybe seeing Damon love his brother would have actually strengthened her love for him.

 

...if I still believed these brothers had a relationship. Like, who gives a shit that Enzo killed himself? No one. The point was supposed to be that Stefan felt responsible and didn't want Damon to know because he didn't want him to go off the rails again. But wouldn't it have been more powerful if they'd just spent a season re-bonding, and Stefan was worried Damon would turn on him and he didn't want to lose his brother again? Maybe the writers wanted me to believe that, but I don't anymore.

While I do feel the brothers relationship was treated poorly this season, I never felt it was totally shafted. I also do not fault Delena totally. This weakening was also done is service of Steroline too. If Damon and Stefan strengthened their bond then why would Stefan need a judgemental BFF?

 

I like Enzo and he does have fans, so I wouldn't agree that NO ONE cares about Enzo.

 

I saw several times that Damon loves his brother this season and he worked to find Stefan, when he learned he was missing, when he was doppelknapped and it was clearly stated he worried about BOTH Elena and Stefan NOT just Elena.

 

Heck in the end Damon DIED for HIS BROTHER. The ending alone was service to Defan.

 

I have more problem with Stefan having NO FAITH still in Damon, despite gradually learning more about Damon's motives in the past and being zinged for being judgemental so much. I've always felt Damon understands Stefan WAY more than Stefan understands Damon. I wish Stefan would show some growth in his love of Damon.

[Bitterswete]

I have more problem with Stefan having NO FAITH still in Damon, despite gradually learning more about Damon's motives in the past and being zinged for being judgemental so much.

 

Why in the world should Stefan not think Damon would go off when he heard the bad news? It's not like it's been years and years since Damon reacted badly to something. He's done so many, many times, and pretty recently too.

 

Learning about Damon's motives in the past has nothing to do with it. The fact is, Damon's way of "dealing" with bad news has often been lashing out at people.

 

Having faith in someone is wonderful and all, but blind faith (telling yourself someone won't do something they've done dozens of times) is another story. And, if anything, I think Damon has more than earned the doubts and fears Stafan has about him and how he will react to things.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Bitterswete

[truthaboutluv]

How long was it between Enzo's death and Kathlena breaking up with Damon whereby he murdered Aaron and threatened Jeremy's life? Yes I can see how Stefan thinking Damon may react irrationally to unpleasant news is irrational on his part. Honestly that whole Stefan can't tell Damon Enzo was dead storyline was such crap I refused to judge any of the characters involved - Stefan or Damon.

 

Instead it just made me even more annoyed with Plec and company shitty writing that they thought I was supposed to buy that Enzo was apparently this super special important person in Damon's life that losing him would just send him over the edge. Yeah okay what the hell ever. Not to mention it was just a really, really lame excuse to create some Stefan/Elena keeping a secret tension for one episode. I hate this show sometimes...

[Cattitude]

Why in the world should Stefan not think Damon would go off when he heard the bad news? It's not like it's been years and years since Damon reacted badly to something. He's done so many, many times, and pretty recently too.

 

Learning about Damon's motives in the past has nothing to do with it. The fact is, Damon's way of "dealing" with bad news has often been lashing out at people.

 

Having faith in someone is wonderful and all, but blind faith (telling yourself someone won't do something they've done dozens of times) is another story. And, if anything, I think Damon has more than earned the doubts and fears Stafan has about him and how he will react to things.

You missed the point. Stefan has learned Damon has trust issue and that is part of the reason he goes off the rails. Stefan should have some realization that keeping a secret that Damon is bound to find out is more likely to make him go off the rails than if Stefan would have found a supportive way to tell Damon.

 

I have long seen that Stefan's treatment of Damon's "feelings" is much more likely to cause Damon to go off the rails than if he'd just be honest with him. Like I orginally said, Stefan's lack of faith in Damon leads to more trouble in their relationship. While I've seen Damon grow in his handling of Stefan in crisis, I've yet to see Stefan grow in his treatment of Damon in crisis.

[Bitterswete]

You missed the point. Stefan has learned Damon has trust issue and that is part of the reason he goes off the rails. Stefan should have some realization that keeping a secret that Damon is bound to find out is more likely to make him go off the rails than if Stefan would have found a supportive way to tell Damon.

 

I thought your original point was that Stefan should "have faith" in Damon, which is a different thing. Stefan just having faith in Damon implies that Stefan should just believe, all evidence to the contrary, that Damon won't go off as a response to emotional pain, and the fact that he didn't have this faith in Damon over the Enzo situation makes him a bad brother. That's what I was disagreeing with.

 

Now I do agree that Stefan thinking that hiding the truth was a good idea was silly because Damon was going to find out eventually. And Damon is totally capable of striking out in his grief, and then blaming his actions on the fact that nobody told him what happened right away. Even then, I think Stefan would've been perfectly justified in thinking Damon might still go off, no matter how gently someone broke the news to him. Because Damon has reacted badly to people gently breaking things to him before.

 

Although I think it's ridiculous that Stefan has to worry about how Damon will react to things. But I totally understand why he does. And that if Damon reacts badly to something, it's not someone else's fault for not telling him the right way, or at the right time, or in the right tone of voice, or whatever. 

 

Seriously, the other characters have been tip-toeing around Damon (for good reason, but still) since the first season for fear of setting him off like some homicidal brat.

[KatWay]

I thought Stefan handled Damon going off the rails after the Kathlena breakup pretty well. He kept cool when Katherine tried to make the situation worse and he wanted Damon back and safe. He was tortured afterwards for a chance to get the cure for them. His number one priority during that whole thing was Damon, as evidenced even by his sudden Delena shipping. And really, ugh. How low can these writers stoop? VERY telling though, IMO that Stefan was so concerned about Damon's feelings and losing it that he was practically pushing Elena at him, so he could be happy. Meanwhile, when Stefan was losing it in S3, Damon...made sure to make out with Elena while he had the chance, cuddled up to her at every opportunity including lying in bed with her while she slept and succeeded in finally getting her to see him as a valid romantic option. When there were signs that Stefan was finally getting better and finding his path again, he reacted by sulking and lashing out because Elena was also making eyes at him again. 

 

I've always felt that for Stefan, Damon comes first, while for Damon, Elena comes first (or really, getting the girl comes first) and Stefan is maybe a distant second. And I'm sorry, but he doesn't get points for "dying" for him. All of them were basically dead that episode, Elena went too (for Damon, certainly not for Stefan who she apparently doesn't give a crap about anymore). Damon just had the misfortune of arriving too late at Bonnie's. Sure, there was a risk he might die, but at that point stopping the travellers was their only chance of survival anyways, so the plan would have gone through whether or not Stefan was dead.

 

And the writing was just so dumb. There were a bazillion ghosts around should have been able to move things, as seen by Enzo and Grams just the previous episode but, for some dumb reason, Damon and Elena needed to "die" too. Why? Well, so we could get Delena's five minute teary goodbye scene as well as the writers patting themselves on the back for redeeming Damon after all the random killing he did this season.

[Cattitude]

 

I've always felt that for Stefan, Damon comes first, while for Damon, Elena comes first (or really, getting the girl comes first) and Stefan is maybe a distant second. And I'm sorry, but he doesn't get points for "dying" for him. All of them were basically dead that episode, Elena went too (for Damon, certainly not for Stefan who she apparently doesn't give a crap about anymore). Damon just had the misfortune of arriving too late at Bonnie's. Sure, there was a risk he might die, but at that point stopping the travellers was their only chance of survival anyways, so the plan would have gone through whether or not Stefan was dead.

 

The reason Damon died for Stefan was he arranged the whole plan AND made himself the trigger by choice. He had no idea if he would come back or not. If Stefan wouldn't have been one of the dead they needed to bring back, Damon would not have made bringing back the dead his first plan. The Traveler's magic was ALREADY stopped b/c Stefan was dead.They didn't know if the plan would work at all let alone bring back umteen people. Damon chose his brother's life over his own. If Stefan wouldn't have been dead Damon's first plan would have been to get rid of the travelers not care about TOS.

It is BS that Damon doesn't love Stefan. It has been shown repeatedly even when others think he doesn't care he cares. He just doesn't see Stefan being a ripper as THAT big a thing, unlike Stefan Damon can love Stefan even when he is evil. Stefan OTOH needs everyone to be all puppies and rainbows to feel loving. Stefan's love is more conditional than Damons.

 

Damon would chose Elena over anyone else's life including Stefans but he'd expect the same from anyone else. To chose Elena's life over his own. If Stefan had to chose between Elena and Damon, Damon would want Stefan to chose Elena too. But as the final showed he was willing to chose Stefan's over his own too. Damon very much loves his brother THAT much.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Cattitude

[KatWay]

 

It is BS that Damon doesn't love Stefan. It has been shown repeatedly even when others think he doesn't care he cares. He just doesn't see Stefan being a ripper as THAT big a thing, unlike Stefan Damon can love Stefan even when he is evil. Stefan OTOH needs everyone to be all puppies and rainbows to feel loving. Stefan's love is more conditional than Damons.

 

But Stefan being the ripper makes him miserable. That's not what he wants to be. And Damon was also trying to get Stefan back to MF in S3 when he went on his rampage, he just also used the opportunity to hit on Elena at every possible moment. Maybe Damon cares about Stefan being alive, but Damon doesn't give a shit about Stefan's happiness. Damon will always choose his own happiness over Stefan's. Stefan has IMO proved that the same isn't true for him. His making an effort to push Elena and Damon back together even when "Elena" was blatantly coming on to him, shows how much he cares about Damon. Him saying "I'm not not happy for you", when Damon reacted by raging and sulking every time Elena chose Stefan over him. Stefan rejecting "Elena's" advances because she had just broken up with Damon when Damon jumped into bed with her within 24 hours of her break up with Stefan. I'd say the picture these things paint is quite clear. Damon needs to win the girl, needs to be chosen over his brother. His obssession with that more than a century after Katherine is still going strong/was going strong until he finally got what he wanted. And all of that despite the fact that Katherine didn't even choose Stefan over him back then - she just chose Stefan too, somewhat against his will I might add. In S1 Damon said he didn't hate Stefan for triggering the transition, which Stefan felt guilty for, but for also being made a vampire by Katherine when Katherine had promised him that he would be her one and only. If the writers don't want me to accept this as truth, as it fits very well with what we know of their dynamic back then, they have to come out and say it and as long as they don't, how am I supposed to see Damon as a good brother?

 

Honestly, with this being a triangle show, I guess it was inevitabe that the brotherly relationship would be crap. You can't sell me on Stefan's importance to Damon when Damon actively and very determinedly went after his brother's girlfriend 80% of the time. 

[Cattitude]

I think the issue may be what you consider a good sibling. Damon and Stefan have opposite personalities so I think that drives the Damon vs Stefan debate as much as Elena does.

 

Stefan is all about control. Controlling people THINK that they are actually being helpful and self sacrificing but in reality they are really being selfish and self important. "Without me and my help your life would be shit". The reason Stefan was pushing Elena at Damon is b/c in his mind being with Elena is the only way Damon can be the Damon STEFAN wants him to be. (also I must point out Elena and Stefan broke up b/c she had feelings for Damon. Damon and Elena broke up b/c they were too much in love with each other, of course Stefan wouldn't go for Elena's advance when he knew she really loved Damon.)

Also Stefan was hurt and angry about Damon and Elena but he would "pretend" not to be. That is not being honest nor truthful. I'd rather have honest truth of Damon's personality to bogus pretending of Stefan's way.

 

Damon is about live and let live. He doesn't try to control what someone decides, but he will love them how ever they are. Damon knew that Elena had feelings for him long before she'd admit them. One reason everyone talks about how Damon challenges Elena IS b/c he makes her be honest and face things by pushing her. In some ways he will do the same to Stefan. He doesn't want him to deny his feeling just to be a martyr, and is also why he would get pissed at Stefan for always saving his life. Damon is more than willing to die, Stefan keeps taking that choice from him.

 

I feel a sibling should love you no matter what. They should help you when you want it, but allow you to make your own choices even bad ones. A sibling can let you know they aren't happy with your choices, but shouldn't try to manipulate you into being someone you don't want to be. That is why I like Damon better. He has more the type of personality I like. He will help Stefan when Stefan needs it but he doesn't judge Stefan's choices and he lets Stefan make his own choices and loves him either way.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Cattitude

[Jads]

I find it so difficult to talk about Damon without discussing Stefan because for me their issues are so interconnected due to their complicated relationship. Sorry if this is not the right place.

My interpretation is that Stefan is a terrible liar, but he knows it and Damon knows it. Damon can read his brother like an open book, therefore Stefan acting all shady is a complete 'tell' that something is up. Whether Stefan does this consciously or not is another matter, but it seems like a pattern which may have evolved from their human lives and that neither of them have grown out of.

With the Enzo situation, I didn't expect Stefan to tell Damon, though I was willing him to just have the conviction to fess up. What I didn't expect was for Damon not to pick it up as quickly as he normally does and that he needed Caroline to point out something was up . I thought that was OOC and weak writing just to have Damon 'save' Elena.

[truthaboutluv]

I thought that was OOC and weak writing just to have Damon 'save' Elena.

 

 

The whole damn storyline was OOC imo. I still refuse to buy this bullshit Enzo/Damon BFF'ness the writers tried to sell and are trying to sell what with Enzo sticking around next season. Oh hey, with Alaric alive again, maybe he and Enzo can fight for Damon's heart.

Edited June 12, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[KatWay]

 

Damon is about live and let live. He doesn't try to control what someone decides

 

I think Damon is plenty controlling. Damon forced Elena to drink his blood when she decided to sacrifice herself in S2, so she'd become a vampire instead. This season he broke up with her "for her own good". He's also the king of compelling, and getting people to go along with whatever he wants or just be agreeable and easy.

What he lacks is self-control.

 

Stefan may have very strict rules about how he lives his life, but other than trying to teach Caroline and Elena how he does it, he's never forced his view on them. He has zero problems with them drinking blood bags instead. What he didn't like/get was the whole only drinking from the vein bullshit in S4 which only happened because Damon told Elena that's how vampires are supposed to live.

[Bitterswete]

Stefan is all about control.

 

I often see comments about how Stefan is so controlling and judgmental, and so about forcing his will on others. Which always leaves me scratching my head, because I don't see this. Don't get me wrong, he's had his "controlling" moments. But so has just about every other character on the show. I don't see "controlling" as a defining characteristic of his character. It's not like Stefan storms around telling people how they should live and then condemning them if they don't do what he says.

 

I do think that Stefan thinks certain things are bad, and if he sees or hears about Damon (or anyone else) doing something he considers wrong he might not try to hide how he feels about it. I just don't see how that's a bad thing.

 

And, as pointed out above, Damon isn't above trying to control other people. He is "live and let live" in the sense that he wouldn't care much about someone robbing a bank or doing drugs, stuff like that. But he's all about demanding people do what he wants them to do when he wants them to do it, and has been known to threaten when he doesn't get his way fast enough.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Bitterswete

[formerlyfreedom]

I'd say if you want to talk about BOTH Stefan and Damon, you can take it over to the Relationship topic; Dysfunction Junction  (*hee* - I love that name!). Let's keep it about Damon in here. Thanks!

[miss-vanilla]

I find it so difficult to talk about Damon without discussing Stefan because for me their issues are so interconnected due to their complicated relationship. Sorry if this is not the right place.

My interpretation is that Stefan is a terrible liar, but he knows it and Damon knows it. Damon can read his brother like an open book, therefore Stefan acting all shady is a complete 'tell' that something is up. Whether Stefan does this consciously or not is another matter, but it seems like a pattern which may have evolved from their human lives and that neither of them have grown out of.

With the Enzo situation, I didn't expect Stefan to tell Damon, though I was willing him to just have the conviction to fess up. What I didn't expect was for Damon not to pick it up as quickly as he normally does and that he needed Caroline to point out something was up . I thought that was OOC and weak writing just to have Damon 'save' Elena.

I totally buy the Denzo connection, and the backstory supports this deep bond these guys have. The Augustine SL was the most traumatic thing to happen to both Damon and Enzo. They were the ONLY person in each others lives for 5 years, they are the only ones who can understand how horrific those years were, they bonded through mutual experience and came to rely on each other totally. As far as we know, neither Damon or Enzo had ever turned off their humanity, even the daily torture and misery wasn't enough reason to do that, but they loved each other, and the only way Damon could survive that fire and the pain of losing Enzo was to shut off his humanity. Again with Enzo, physical pain is bearable, but he could not stand the pain of knowing that the woman he loved, was killed by the only other person in the world that he loved. The writing has been poor at times this season, but this part of the story was well developed, credible, and brilliantly acted by Michael Malarkey and Ian Somerhalder IMO.

Throughout the series, Damon has been written as being a very passionate being, and when he loves, he loves true and deep, and is very loyal. He has a capacity to care and protect those that he develops a bond with. It is no accident that he has developed many friendships along the way: Alaric, Enzo, Liz, Elena, Rose. All of theses people recognised that Damon is a worthy friend, and trust him in times of trouble. LOL, they all have him on speed dial when the shit hits the fan.

[formerlyfreedom]

Please take the Stefan/Damon discussion over to the Relationship thread. Posts have been moved. Thanks.