Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Haleth]

Sheesh, you all.  Don't give Martin any ideas!  He might write this to spite everyone griping about the next book.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Haleth

[ambi76]

Maybe it takes him so long because he has to write a second troll book to publish first. :P

 

Now lets pray (no I actually mean pray, okay) for shimpy to make it through that Jon chapter.

[stillshimpy]

Oh God, that's right.  I'd forgotten about Davos sit-down of the "and if you fail spectacularly?  You were never here, same thing I told Ned Stark, lo those many years ago....incidentally, he totally screwed a fisherman's daughter, because Old "can't keep it in his pants" Eddard just rolled that way.  Here comes Ned Stark!  Lock up your Sisters and Septas, that's what we used to say.  Then he'd go for our actual wives.  Horny Bastard Stark, the Slavering Wolf Lord, that's what we called him."  

 

Yup, I remember reading that now, and that's about how much I believe it then too.  "Oh yeah, sure.  Of course.  Seems so likely."  

 

Okay, I will get back to reading some time tomorrow.  My husband was in town for Valentine's Day and I didn't think it would be particularly romantic to sit around reading about Murder Most Foul (or even Fowl), but soon, very soon, I will plunge onwards towards the giddy delights the North affords.  Yippee.  

[WindyNights]

Good luck.

[stillshimpy]

Oh jeez, okay so Jon is dead.  Or at least some version of dead and it was oddly far less upsetting in the book.  I'm not even sure that's actually down to knowing it was coming in some form or fashion.  It's just....he stood before the assembled Men of the Watch and declared his intention to break his vows, asked for volunteers to go with him to do so.  While dispatching others to go and bail out Hardhome and as much as I hate saying this, freaking everyone who is not Jon has a point about how untenable a plan that all is, as it stands.  He needed a better plan.  

 

His reaction to Wun Wun killing a knight of the realm was to immediately think of the Giant's defense and whereas I don't disagree with him on who had the bulk of the worth in that scenario, Jon's vows can be recognized as the shattered things he was standing on. 

 

Now, just like I wouldn't believe that Davos was dead until I had some very serious reason to believe it. I will not believe that Stannis is dead until I read it for myself.  Until then?  He's as dead as Davos was.  Yes, okay? I sort of like Stannis now.  I know, it came as a rather horrible shock to me too. 

 

I hope what has really happened is that the poor Spearwife who wasn't killed outright on Winterfell's Wall just spilled beans aplenty and that Mance Rayder did not actually die at Ramsay Snow's worthless fucking hands. 

 

Then I read the ever-so-cheerful NEXT chapter.  Poor In-Over-His-Head Selmy.   Yeah, the Green Grace is evil, Selmy.  I'm exceptionally surprised that Gerris and Achibald made it out of the pit of fire alive.  I did perk up slightly at the Pale Wings thing and Selmy thinking Viserion, because I'm still fixated on Tyrion having seen something with pale, leathery wings overhead, when the only loose dragon was Drogon. 

 

It was also more than a little sad that when Arch was saying, "You didn't know him..."  Selmy was actually wrong.  We knew what was going through poor Quentyn's head.  He really was trying to win Danaerys.  He'd have take her dragons, but he was trying to win her all the same. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

You know what my biggest beef with Marsh is? How bad his plan is. It's basically guaranteed to start a civil war at the Wall, between wildlings, NW men loyal to Jon, NW men who are anti-Jon and members of the Royal party. I mean, did he listen to the reception Jon's speech got? That should have been a clear warning bell to leave Jon alone. What Marsh should have done is let Jon leave and, in a day or two, write to Ramsey and tell him that their Lord Commander had deserted with a wildling army and was heading for Winterfell. If Jon doesn't make some arrangement to get the Royal party to leave (to Braavos, perhaps) he should do so. Tell Ramsey that they fled with Jon. That way, if Jon wins, Bowen can claim that he was simply acting in a manner that meant that the NW wouldn't be destroyed by Ramsey if he emerged victorious. Jon might execute him for it, but Marsh is almost certain to die anyway in the civil war he has created. If Ramsey wins, Bowen can claim that Jon was a rogue deserter and point to the fact that he warned Ramsey of his betrayal. Given that Marsh at this point will not have the Royals or any of the other things that Ramsey demanded, Ramsey would probably deem the trouble of attacking the NW as not worth it. If not, at least the full NW could prepare to defend the Wall from him. So yeah, Marsh's motives are perfectly understandable, justifiable even, but his methods are really poor.

 

I also think Jon might have been deliberately trying to get as few of the NW men as possible to go along with him, so that Ramsey would be less likely to seek retribution on the NW. Jon, I think, was trying to give Ramsey the impression of it being a rogue LC and wildlings, not the NW itself. I do wonder what he and Tormund talked about for two hours. Maybe it was just plan logistics, but I can't help but think it was more than that.

 

Here is my defence of Jon's actions though; once, Stannis arrived at the Wall, neutrality was impossible. And I think it would have hurt the NW more to try and maintain it. Jon's decision to free Mance to save 'Arya' is also touted as Jon provoking the Boltons. But here is the thing; do people really think that the Boltons (and by extension the Lannisters and Tyrells) are going to forget Stannis' heir at the Wall? Even if Jon hadn't released Mance and had helped Stannis as little as he possibly could, do people really think the Boltons wouldn't want Shireen dead? Because the Pink Letter (as the letter is known) demands that Jon hand over Shireen and Selyse, which Jon can't do without breaking guest right. I can't imagine them just ignoring the Royal party, regardless of Jon's behaviour as LC. I do think Jon's Hardhome plan sucked though. That was one time when I agreed with Selyse, Marsh... everyone but Jon.

 

So, shimpy, did it occur to you that the Pink Letter might not have been from Ramsey? It's a very big talking point amongst fans, with Stannis and Mance both being candidates for the true author. If you're interested, compare the letter Jon receives from Ramsey earlier in the book to the Pink Letter, and see if you notice any differences. The one that sticks out for me is 'Ramsey's' use of the word 'bastard' in the Pink Letter; he seems to hate that word, so I find it odd that he would use it. The possibility of the letter having a different author did not occur to me until someone suggested it, and I genuinely don't know who I think wrote it.

 

I really, really hope, by the way, that one of those corpses that the trebuchets were flinging was Daario's.

[Alayne Stone]

And now The Pink Letter Conspiracy theories can officially begin ...

 

Muhahahahaha.

 

Shimpy, this is why I just kept telling you to read and said nothing else of it. I've been waiting for you to get to this point but I didn't want to spoil you.

 

My speculation is as follows, and I'll include it under a spoiler cut in case there are any vague and unintentional hints to unreleased material from Winds. I don't think there is, but just in case:

I am of the impression that Ramsay did write the letter, but that he has misinformation. He believes Stannis is dead because someone he trusts told him Stannis was dead (my money being on Manderly). This being all part of a plan of Stannis's ... to pass himself off as dead so as to create a false sense of security for the Boltons. Stannis has Theon now and Theon is quite familiar with the crypts of Winterfell. It's entirely possible Stannis and his men will infiltrate from those crypts/secret passages in and out of the castle. It's just speculation of course and there are many, many theories as to the status of Stannis.

 

Of course, GRRM basically said that Stannis

was still alive in the books after he was killed off in the show. He could very well have just meant that Stannis was alive as of the end of ADwD and that he will die by the end of the Battle of Ice ... but I don't think so. I don't think his story is done yet. Nor do I think Jon's is.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[WindyNights]

@shimpy I'm also surprised you like Stannis. : o

Excellent a new Mannis fan muahaha

Okay so I think Jon's last chapter is a theme that GRRM's been weaving in since book one but it's "love is the death of duty" which is why Jon breaks his vows. His love for Arya. I mean there other reasons as well but that was his prime one.

[mac123x]

I really don't know which of the Pink Letter theories to buy, but I'm leaning towards the Mance wrote it camp.  One of the things he demands in Mance's son -- why would Ramsey or Stannis (if either authored the letter) give a damn about Monster?

 

Edited to add:  That's my favorite Selmy chapter, since he's in his element, planning the attack on the besieging armies.  I think his plan is a good one, mainly because of a lot of stuff he doesn't know.  a) The Pale Mare is much worse in the camps than in the city,

b) He's got a chance of turning the Windblown to his side

c) Tyrion is already turning the Second Sons

d) The Irnoborn fleet is approaching

e) Who knows what the hell the dragons will do but they definitely will sow fear and chaos.  Given that the Unsullied are immune to fear, they're likely to tear through the Yunkai'i forces.

Edited February 17, 2016 by mac123x

[Dev F]

I really don't know which of the Pink Letter theories to buy, but I'm leaning towards the Mance wrote it camp.  One of the things he demands in Mance's son -- why would Ramsey or Stannis (if either authored the letter) give a damn about Monster?

 

Yep. And the letter-writer slips Mance's son and Val into the middle of a long list of more obvious people for Ramsay to demand. Which is exactly what a sneaky forger would do in order to avoid raising suspicion. "I want my bride! And everyone associated with the false king who attacked me and was making war against my allies! And, oh, some wildlings that have basically nothing to do with anything . . . And my Reek!"

 

I'm definitely on team "Mance wrote the Pink Letter." Hence its slightly labored sense of Ramsayan outrage, and wildling-esque turns of phrase like "your black crows."

 

In fact, this is what I was talking about earlier when I was theorizing about the reasoning behind the TV series' changes to Mance's character. (season five spoilers)

I think in the books, Mance is going to continue to be a sort of trickster character, sneaking around in the shadows and engineering a confrontation between the Jon and Ramsay that he hopes will give his people an opening to seize power in the North. And I think the show is going to give that same storyline to Littlefinger instead.

 

(season 5 spoilers continue)

It just seems like the exact sort of thing the producers would do to streamline an overpopulated narrative. The books introduce this new agent of chaos who's going to sow discord in the North, but the story already has a major character who's an agent of chaos, and he's already getting sort of disconnected from everyone else's storyline. So why not kill off the duplicate and give his storyline to the more major character?

 

(season 5 spoilers conclude)

And if Mance isn't going to play this major trickster role anymore, the fact that he's a sneaky bard -- and that the wildlings in general are these roguish figures -- ends up not amounting to anything. So it makes sense to make them all more straightforward and stoic.

[jellyroll2]

There's still no definitive proof Jon is even dead. Forget rising from the dead, he may not even be dead. Seriously wounded? Unconscious? Comatose even. And yes, possibly dead. But there are all sorts of factors going with those wounds and the circumstances Jon is in (cold weather, layers of clothing, is he wearing mail, etc). Good chance he's dead? Sure. But just as good a chance he's just incapacitated.

As for the PL, I have no clue who wrote it as there is no one who has every piece of info from that letter. Some things Ramsey can't know, some things Mance can't know, some things Stannis can't know, some things Mel can't know. While reading it never occurred to me that the author was anyone other than Ramsey just lying through his teeth. Didn't sink in there were things in the letter Ramsey couldn't know. So then I was like, well who the hell knows everything mentioned and the fact is, no one does.

And we truly don't know Jon's plan. I think those two hours with Tormund are important. He was breaking his vows of course but a good lawyer could easily argue a threat to the LC (which is what the PL is) is a threat to the Watch itself. The Wall can't be defended from the south. Jon going out to meet the threat rather than waiting for it to come was spwise. But we all know this was Jon finally saying "fuck this shit. I'm choosing Arya and going to save my sister and kick Ramsey's ass." But I think there's more to it.

The Caesar moment was obviously thought of beforehand but clearly not planned for the moment it happened. The timing of that was as stupid as every imaginable fuck.

[WindyNights]

Eh, Mance writing it is a silly theory.

One reason is that he demands his Reek. How would Jon even know who Reek is so why put that in?

Edited February 17, 2016 by WindyNights

[Lady S.]

The Caesar moment was obviously thought of beforehand but clearly not planned for the moment it happened. The timing of that was as stupid as every imaginable fuck.

Yeah, those guys had a fucking slogan for stabbing him, I don't think that was something just thought up and repeated on the spot. And there's at least one instance, maybe two, of Bowen Marsh refusing to eat and drink with Jon in a meeting in his chambers, while the other officers did partake, which I feel is ominous given the connotations of sharing food in this world. So I think Bowen was conspiring with his underlings for a while about absolute last resort actions, and then felt he was meant to go through with those plans when Jon went full oathbreaker. I do think they killed Jon, but I also think it's significant that there were only four murderers and the only one of any significance was Bowen Marsh. Plenty of others disagreed with Jon but they weren't all trying to kill him in the name of the Watch. This was not a NW-wide revolt or even on the scale of the mutiny against Mormont or the dozen or so assassins on the show so I really doubt Bowen is going to come out well from all this in the immediate aftermath. 

[Terra Nova]

Well, a lot to comment on:

 

Hardhome is the perfect example of mission creep: the goals of the mission changed midway, so that in a 'in for a penny, in for a stag' fashion it got very difficult to pull away once Jon already dispatched troops: the original plan was pretty sensible and straight-forward, but then the wildlings got burned by the Lyseni, the storms blocked the NW fleet, and at that point it became a mission to rescue even poor Cotter and the others... it's a piling of misfortunes, more than poor planning; in this chapter, it had long became something desperate, but I wouldn't blame Jon for that. The mission on land would have turned out a massacre, though

 

What I blame him for though is the way he handled the Pink Letter, the speech seems to confirm all the fears of the NW about Jon forsaking his vows and putting himself at the head of a Wildling army: it makes sense for them to have developed a fierce loyalty to Jon - this was already apparent when they passed through the gate, with the chieftains pledging alliegence to Jon (funny that he accomplished in few months what Mance did in years of fighting) -, and I too am convinced a good lawyer may save Jon's ass... but that's treason, plain and simple. He wanted the wildling to join him and move war against Ramsay. And his contempt of Marsh and the others 'yeah, whatever, I don't want them, I don't need them' was what really alarmed me in that chapter; after that, I knew he was doomed. Well, that and Ghost acting crazy.

 

And then on top of all the rest there was the mess with Wun Wun, earlier in the chapter he explained ser Patrek how to properly woo a wildling woman and the knight answered along the lines of: 'yeah, no woman ever complained about my skills', so surely he tried to steal Val and bumped against her bodyguard.

 

Too bad that the chapter first half had one of the funniest lines, in my opinion, about Borroq raising his own pig army XD And Kastark throwing feces at the guards like some monkey!

 

As for the Pink Letter, luckily I remember clearly what I thought on my first re-read: the letter is written by Ramsay, who's been fed some true information by Mance - whom I consider truly in a cage with a cloak of skinned spearwives, gah! D: -, the rest was taunting of some kind. I would immediately exclude Stannis as the potential author of the letter: first, he doesn't gain anything from this (the theories I've seen are too convoluted, in my opinion); second, he doesn't know about Mance, since Mel explicitly went behind his back to save him from the pyre; third, had he written the mail, he would have called for Theon Greyjoy, surely not Reek.

 

I am still of that opinion, but in time I also started believing that:

1- Ramsay honestly believes Stannis is dead, probably because of the reports of Manderly's men; Tycho reached Stannis in time to expose the Karstark plan, which relied on Stannis being pinned under Winterfell's walls between Bolton's and Karstark's men, and only at that point they would have turned against him. So the glorious seven days battle *roll eyes* it's an outright lie or false infos given to Ramsay.

2- Roose is dead. No way a letter like that would have been sent with him still in charge of everything. I do not know how but he's dead and now Ramsay is furious and completely unleashed; he wants Val and the baby so he can torture them in front of Mance, because at the end of the day Theon and fArya still escaped with his help and... well, we know Ramsay, torturing someone's relatives is exactly what he would do. So long Roose, you disgusting backstabber, I hope Manderly 'accidentally' tripped while coming down some stairs and squashed you like a roach.

 

 

As for Barry, yeah, I think now that Yunkai declared war the Harpies will stay put for a while, since the solidarity between Masters doesn't extend to masters of other cities. I consider the grief of the Green Grace to be genuine.

The pale wings Tyrion glimpsed at the Sorrows may have been only a giant bat, surely fans always speculated it was indeed a dragon but at the time only Drogon was free and he's pretty, erm, black ^^'

The show, 'shockingly', went for the dragon, going so far as to declare that seeing Drogon gave Tyrion the will to live again. Yeah...

 

 

Finally, I have a couple of questions for Shimpy:

 

- I think some of the last chunk of Meereen's arc will be covered next season, so no comparison for the show for now (though I may ask you if you were surprised Barry and Hizzy are still alive and kicking at this point). But what about the Wall storyline? You already said you find the stabbing much more understandable or at least motivated than in the series, but now with the Pink Letter, has something changed? Especially seeing how Bowen was crying during the Ides of Marsh, which is something that really made me feel sorry for him, opposed to show!Thorne and their version of the stabbing (people were especially furious at Jon's last words going from 'Ghost' to 'et tu, Olly...').

 

- This is not a question but I just wanted to say that I am truly happy you warmed a bit towards Stannis :) Noye said that he was iron, too stiff to bend, while Bob was the true steel, but I think, regardless of what will happen in WoW, that the opposite is true: Bob broke with Lyanna's death and, like an unused sword, he rusted on a wall; Stannis could have been broken at the Blackwater, but he didn't and he showed an incredible resilience in his Northern campaign, listening to Jon and changing his plans accordingly.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

I think GRRM said that Donal Noye's opinion of the Baratheon brothers was supposed to be more indicative of what someone like he values rather than of the Baratheons

Robert is a great commander and warrior

Stannis is a great commander

And Renly is neither

I think GRRM said that Donal Noye's opinion of the Baratheon brothers was supposed to be more indicative of what someone like he values rather than of the Baratheons

Robert is a great commander and warrior

Stannis is a great commander

And Renly is neither

[Trisan]

Quite far-fetched I know, but there's also the theory that Asha wrote the Pink Letter... it wouldnt surprise me that much, actually...

[Haleth]

You know what my biggest beef with Marsh is? How bad his plan is. It's basically guaranteed to start a civil war at the Wall, between wildlings, NW men loyal to Jon, NW men who are anti-Jon and members of the Royal party. I mean, did he listen to the reception Jon's speech got? That should have been a clear warning bell to leave Jon alone.

 

Really!  Stabbing Jon was a bit rash.  If Marsh had enough support they should have tossed Jon in a cell for a few days.  You mean to tell me the NW doesn't have any sort of tribunal to judge the actions of a brother, not to mention a Lord Commander, thought to have broken his vows?  What did Marsh think would happen next?  Everyone (including thousands of Wildlings) would be ok with his actions and they'd drag out the urns for a new vote?  So what's his plan for the Wildlings, the Others, and the royal party staying at the castle in the midst of a war?  

 

He unwittingly created his worst nightmare... a strong leader with a Wildling army at his command.

 

It never occurred to me that anyone other than Ramsay wrote the letter.  What would be the purpose of Mance or Stannis sending it?  To provoke Jon to take action?  Neither would have any reason to think Jon would forsake his duty.

[WSmith84]

Really!  Stabbing Jon was a bit rash.  If Marsh had enough support they should have tossed Jon in a cell for a few days.  You mean to tell me the NW doesn't have any sort of tribunal to judge the actions of a brother, not to mention a Lord Commander, thought to have broken his vows?  What did Marsh think would happen next?  Everyone (including thousands of Wildlings) would be ok with his actions and they'd drag out the urns for a new vote?  So what's his plan for the Wildlings, the Others, and the royal party staying at the castle in the midst of a war?  

 

I think trying to physically stop Jon at all was probably a bad idea. By that point it was too late. That's why I think Bowen should have just let Jon leave with the wildlings (who Bowen doesn't want there anyway) and then declare him a deserter and inform Ramsey. Most of the officers seem anti-Jon anyway or would see this as desertion, so I don't think Bowen would have a hard time winning them around. And the rank and file don't really need to know of Jon's traitor status. As long as Ramsey thinks that the NW isn't involved, and that Jon is a deserter with just an army of wildlings, Ramsey might leave the Watch alone. And if Jon returns, victorious with a united North behind him? Bowen and the other officers can just keep quiet, or if it's somehow discovered, tell Jon that they just wanted to protect the Watch in case Ramsey won. They might die, but they'll definitely die with the situation Marsh has created.

 

Also, that is two Lord Commanders in a row that have been shanked by their own men. Lord Commander is becoming a more and more undesirable position every day, I imagine.

 

And I really hope Dolorous Edd makes it to the end. If there's a NW by the end of the story, I want him as Lord Commander. If there isn't, I want Jon (or whoever rules the North) to give him some land, a keep and find a nice wife for him. Edd's the best. I will throw my book across the room if Edd dies.

[mac123x]

Assuming Jon get's resurrected, that's also the chapter that people point to showing that he's Azor Ahai.  Born beneath a bleeding star (Ser Patrick's sigil is a bunch of stars, which are currently covered with his blood) amidst salt and smoke (smoke from the fires that are always burning, salt from Bown Marsh's tears). 

 

Other speculations include Mel burning Shireen as part of the spell to revive Jon.  Shireen has greyscale, and Jon is a secret Targaryen, thus Mel is metaphorically "waking a dragon from stone". 

 

Further theories include Jon then stabbing Mel as punishment for killing Shireen, inadvertently reinacting the story of Nissa-Nissa, and Mel's inner fire goes into Longclaw, making it into Lightbringer.

 

I love how imaginative fans can get with the theories.  There are so many out there that some of them are bound to be right.

[stillshimpy]

As per usual, I have to walk my dogs, so I've only read a couple of posts, but this is the thing I forgot to include in my post last night:  I assumed that the Pink Letter was a pile of poo because....why is Ramsay writing it instead of Bolton?  

 

Roose Bolton should be alive, unless something has gone drastically fucking wrong....in which case...the scenario that Ramsay is outlining seems unlikely.   

 

I'm not sure what the deal is with all of that, but that was the part that really stood out to me.  "The False King is dead, blah blah blah....wife! Want wife!  Wildlings, want Wildings because....uh....BASTARD, You're a BASTARD and I am not because my lord father, who ought to be writing this thing with far fewer personal taunts to try and get you to come out of the castle.....is....PERFECTLY WELL and uh.....WE WON....and...Reek."  

 

So it seemed like a trick, but there was so much weirdness in it....including the fact that Martin is just not going to hand out character deaths like that.  Stannis has been a fairly significant character in these books, it's beyond unlikely that his character's death would just get a passing mention in a poorly written letter with what kept being referred to as a "pink smear" of wax on it.  

 

Excellent a new Mannis fan muahaha

 

Don't get carried away ;-)  I like Stannis well enough to not want him dead.   I still think he'd make a truly rotten King. 

[Autarch]

Problem with Mance as the writer is that he most likely doesn't know how to read or write. I don't believe that's part of what they teach the recruits, considering they only have a maester per castle. Also, where did he get the ravens? Someone from a castle had to have sent it, someone with the Bolton seal. I don't doubt Ramsay tortured either Mance or one of the spearwives to get the info he needed.

[WSmith84]

Problem with Mance as the writer is that he most likely doesn't know how to read or write. I don't believe that's part of what they teach the recruits, considering they only have a maester per castle. Also, where did he get the ravens? Someone from a castle had to have sent it, someone with the Bolton seal. I don't doubt Ramsay tortured either Mance or one of the spearwives to get the info he needed.

 

I don't think the letter actually had the Bolton seal, just a smear of pink wax. I don't know if Mance can read or not, interesting question. I'd bet on not, but I can't say for certain.

[Terra Nova]

 (smoke from the fires that are always burning, salt from Bown Marsh's tears).

 

Smoke may also be the 'steam' coming from Jon's wound, since "in the cold night air the wound was smoking".

 

It is also interesting that when Jon disses Mel at the beginning of the chapter he goes through her visions:

- the girl on the dying horse, proved to be false or anyway, not what Jon was hoping, so he's pretty salty about it;

- daggers in the dark, something he took in consideration but now seems to discard; not happened (yet);

- a promised prince, born in smoke and salt. Now this I find particularly interesting, because while the first two have a direct link to Jon and he is/was invested in both, Jon never really mused about AA, apart from a small convo at the beginning when he noticed that Lightbringer is not warm in itself. This is the sneaky way Martin brings back in the reader's mind the prophecy which is about to come true at last.

 

Also, now we can remind Bran's comatose dream, in particular the mention of Jon:

 

 

Finally, he looked North. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon Snow sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

 

So this came to pass in GoT, where Jon complains about the terrible cold he feels when arriving at the Wall, but now it can also mean that Bran saw Jon 'dead' or incapacitated, maybe lying in the ice cells (all the better for the brain cells!), turning metaphorically hard as 'stone', like the dragon bound to awake with Azor Ahai. Jon himself dreamt of his armor of ice and the flaming sword. (There are of course well-grounded theories about Lightbringer being the Night's Watch itself, a.k.a. the sword in the darkness, the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn. So as Lord Commander Jon is already wielding the sword of fire)***.

 

It is also nice that the corpses Jon brought back from beyond the Wall didn't reanimate: well, a lot of revenants in folklore are repelled by iron, and these two corpses are indeed in fetters. It also cast a new light about the Stark Kings being buried with a real iron sword on their statues, as if to seal them and keep their spirit in Winterfell.

 

*** Just for Shimpy to know, there are equally grounded theories that Lightbringer is Dawn, the ancestral sword of House Dayne forged from the fiery heart of a falling star. Elio Garcia, the co-author of A World of Ice and Fire among other things, teased book-readers on his forum by saying that he would have liked for the Dayne's words to be "Dawn Brings Light", but maybe it would be "too on the nose" ^^' Damn you Elio!

 

 

ETA:

I sort of like Stannis now

 

:D

 

Don't get carried away

 

D:

Edited February 17, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Dev F]

Problem with Mance as the writer is that he most likely doesn't know how to read or write. I don't believe that's part of what they teach the recruits, considering they only have a maester per castle.

 

Other proponents of the theory have pointed out that Mance poses as Abel the bard in homage to Bael the Bard -- an anagram, which he would have to be literate to understand.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, there are a couple of inclusions in that letter that are fairly senseless to me and it seems to have been written by someone who is functionally literate, but certainly not exactly a wordsmith.  So for me either Bolton or Mance would fit, as I've actually no reason to believe Mance Rayder wouldn't have wanted to learn to read and write.  In fact, he had an interest in equality, it seems so if he was illiterate when he joined the Watch, I can easily imagine him wanting to learn to read and write.  

 

The letter does seem like something produced by someone who came to literacy later in life.  There are several things that point to it containing a huge load of crap though.  One being that we know Theon and Jeyne made it to Stannis's camp, so if Stannis was dead, they'd have found Jeyne Poole easily enough.  Unless Asha managed to pack them both off with her in some feat of near-dead-weight-dragging....which I don't entirely discount as a possibility. 

 

Also, the lack of a seal -- or the lack of a mention of a seal -- really kept catching me.  Just the whole "pink smear" being mentioned repeatedly.  There was also something sort of odd about the idea that Ramsay would style himself the Trueborn lord of Winterfell.  The constant use of Bastard actually brought Thorne to mind more easily than anyone.   

Could it have been written by the Umber or Karstark that is all set to betray everyone in the woods?  There's something off about it.  Could Melisandre have written it?  

I don't know, I would just be surprised it if was simply a letter from Ramsay Bolton.  For one thing, the men of the Watch made such a giant fuss about it when Jon was inclined to simply read it later.  Why?  Clydas was more pink than white, etc. etc.   but Jon cracked the seal and flattened it in order to read. 

 

Why was Clydas so freaked out by it, if it hadn't been opened and read? 

[Terra Nova]

Well, the letter requires a raven trained to fly to Castle Black, so we can remove people lost in the woods, like Crowsfood Umber who's been parked outside of Winterfell with meager provisions, and surely didn't think about bringing a raven for Castle Black with him.

 

I would also exclude the Karstarks, who unquestionably threw their lot with the Boltons. I cannot see how such a letter helps the Boltons if Stannis is still alive. Maybe one could say it discourages the NW to help Stannis, but they helped him unmolested for the first half of the book. If anything, such a letter may cause some hot-head to try and avenge him.

 

Mel would have needed to leave CB, with a raven, unleash it, come back before the bird and then act all distressed upon hearing of the demise of her Savior: if she wrote the letter, why leave the hall just after Jon finished reading it? Why didn't she stay and hear what Jon had to say about it, since she would have written it with the main purpose to elicit some unknown reaction from the Lord Commander? Also, how did she know about this 'Reek'?

Also, from a meta point of view, Mel must experience some sort of religious catastrophe/loss of faith: she has to realize that Stannis is not AA, and Jon is; she will think that the fires showed her only snow because Stannis is indeed dead, but upon hearing of Jon's stabbing she may realize that the Savior is the reborn Snow, and so she will resurrect him in some fashion.

 

Alternatively, who wrote the letter is in cahoots with Clydas, who only feigned that a reven arrived - maybe doused one in water so to show the 'evidence', but to me it seems too overcomplicated.

 

Clydas may have opened the letter, maybe because he's unhappy with Jon too and agreed with Marsh or someone else to quietly take a look on the incoming mail; in that case the smear of pink wax is his attempt at re-sealing the letter, which may have well been written by Ramsay. Maybe Marsh & Co. knew already, and they waited in the hall just long enough to check Jon's reaction and intents: once he proclaimed he wanted to march South, they quickly left and agreed they had to depose him (clearly this was something they already talked about, but the execution was rushed by the circumstances)

Edited February 17, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

@shimpy Just remember we get Davos as Hand and Shireen as Queen if Stannis becomes king. : c

Anyways I figured the constant use of taunts and calling himself the trueborn lord of Winterfell was provocation on Ramsay's part. I mean he does now know that Jon engineered his wife's escape that also took his Resk from him.

[WSmith84]

Mance was born north of the Wall, but raised with the NW (at the Shadow Tower, I believe). So perhaps he learned to read from the Maester or Septon there, if they had time to spare.

[WindyNights]

I doubt Aemon taught Mance how to read and write.

Maybe the septon?

[Alayne Stone]

It never once struck me that Mance was illiterate. People who are so determined have been known to teach themselves how to read, so ...

 

Maybe show!Shireen came down at one point and taught Mance. :D

 

The Pink Letter is deliberately confusing. Everything about it is off. The only thing I feel even remotely confident about is that it was Ramsay who wrote it, but beyond that ... who knows? This is as vexing of a cliffhanger as the status of Jon Snow is.

 

Shimpy, there are certainly theories out there that a member of the Night's Watch wrote it in order to deliberately provoke Jon into breaking his vows. I'm not someone who prescribes to that theory, but it has certainly been bounced around before.

 

I'm a Stannis fan, btw. I don't want him on the Iron Throne when all is said and done, but I still enjoy his character.

[WindyNights]

I just want Shireen to be queen and Davos to be Hand. : c

And well there's not really a great alternative right now to Stannis.

Euron is evil.

Daenerys is infertile and far away.

Tommen is Cersei's puppet and they're doomed anyhow.

Aegon.....I can get behind though, fake or not so he's my second pick.

Anyways in my dream scenario, I want Stannis to marry Rickon to Shireen and die fighting the Others. Shireen and Rickon then rule Westeros and Davos becomes one of the greatest Hands.

-enter Big Bucket-

Big Bucket: I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death.

Me: ;-;

[Ashara Payne]

Ultimately I think there will be no Iron Throne and the kingdoms will devolve back to how they were. Seems to be what's happening here on Earth, only far more slowly. Oh yes, let's have the Kingdoms of Northumbria, Mercia and Wessex etc. back, please! Empire-building ultimately fails.

[DigitalCount]

It has always been my position that the Pink Letter was a) written by Ramsey and b) about 75% Bolshevik (say it out loud and you'll get it). The thing that makes me sure it wasn't Stannis or Mance is that Reek is mentioned as Reek. It makes no sense for someone sane to include that detail. They're both also much too crafty to expect it to work to their benefit, since what happened is not exactly unforeseeable. Furthermore, as I understand it, Ramsay hates being referred to as illegitimate, but that wouldn't make him reluctant to apply the epithet to someone else, especially his hated counterpart/enemy. My thinking is that someone absolutely read it before giving it to Jon, and that the issue is whether the contents are true, but I don't think the person who authored it is really in question.

 

Also, as I probably said under tags, I think that Jon's reaction to the Pink Letter was probably the most justified of all the things he did that could be considered "coloring outside of the lines." Ramsay's threat, as threadbare as it probably was, made it completely necessary to stop him. Castle Black is not going to be able to defend itself from Ramsay once he gets there with an army; it can't repel an attack from the south. Their only other option at that point was to wait to get sacked, basically, and that would have been just as bad as what happened. Of course, this makes me more annoyed that it wasn't included in the show, especially since they set it up and everything.

[stillshimpy]

I think actually that it makes zero sense, altogether, that Ramsay would write a letter to Jon Snow, knowing who Jon Snow was and think that "Reek" would be anything other than fucking deader than every doornail ever made, dreamed of, or promised.   

 

The last person, quite possibly in all of creation, that would allow Theon Greyjoy to live would be Jon Snow, the Bastard of Winterfell.   

 

That letter seemed to be written by someone who didn't realize "Reek" had a connection to Jon Snow.  Ramsay couldn't possibly truly believe that if Jon Snow got his hands on Theon Greyjoy, that he'd be alive for more than about ....no minutes....very few seconds might be stretching.  

 

Also, whoever read the letter re-sealed it.  I grant you, there are a couple of pieces of information in that have me wondering where the hell they could have gotten the information.  Who could know about Mance Rayder still being alive?   Is it possible that someone in that practice yard, the day the "Lord of Bones" kicked Jon's ass very handily, recognized him, or saw through the glamour?  That's the only thing I could think of to explain that part of the letter as coming from anyone other than Ramsay.  

 

However, the thing with Reek is actually what made me think, "Well, only someone who didn't understand who Reek really is to Jon Snow would ever write mentioning him.  He'd know "oh yeah, I'm going to burn your Castle Black to the blackest of cinders now....because you fucking killed Theon Greyjoy without a moment's hesitation."   

 

So the very thing that you're citing as proof, is the part that made me think, "Uh....that's really weird....Ramsay Bolton would be the first person to understand that Jon Snow would not have Reek...because Reek is Theon and killing Theon would be beyond a given."  

 

ETA:  Sorry I seem to have stalled again on progress.  Still more Mereen-centric action didn't exactly pull me in as a concept.  When I saw Daenerys's name at the top of the chapter all I could think was "Oh brother, I am now going to have read about her pining for Daario from wherever Drogo took her?"  

 

Edited February 20, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

I will only say that the next one is widely considered the best Dany's chapter of Dance, and I go often for a re-read of the last third of it. BUT, yes, there's some Daario popping up every now and then ^^' 

 

But take your time and don't feel bad about it :) it's better to read these last couple of chapters with the right mood and, after all, there's no need to hurry. I will miss all of this once it's over ^^

[Alayne Stone]

Shimpy, Jon has no reason to know that "Reek" is "Theon" though.

 

The first half of Daenerys's chapter is really, really slow. Just push through it. It all comes together in the end.

 

Is the epilogue after the Daenerys chapter?

[Terra Nova]

@Alayne:

 

Yep.

[stillshimpy]

Shimpy, Jon has no reason to know that "Reek" is "Theon" though.

 

Right. But Ramsay does.  Ramsay also knows who Jon Snow is: Ned Stark's bastard son.  So if he really believed, for even one nanosecond that Jon Snow had either "his wife" or "Reek" he'd know the chances of their return would be non-existent on both counts.  One because, Jon Snow would know Jeyne Poole and also....no one with a drop of Stark blood in them would ever return anything or anyone to Ramsay Bolton. 

 

But Ramsay Bolton would know that if Jon Snow had "ReeK"....he'd recognize him as Theon Greyjoy and have killed him. 

 

So demanding him back would be pointless....unless whoever wrote that letter has no idea who Reek is to Jon.   Ramsay Bolton knows who "Reek" is to Jon.   Not that most of the stuff in the letter was anything other than pointless:  Demanding Mance's son was odd.  Mance would also not have referred to Val as the wildling princess, because Mance never would have referred to her that way.   The only way I could see Ramsay Bolton really thinking that "I bet Reek and that poor girl I horribly mistreat are at The Wall" and that Jon would return anyone upon demand, would be if Ramsay had no idea who Jon Snow was., but he does know.  Hence the constant "Bastard". 

Then the thing that becomes even weirder is, if someone at The Wall wrote that letter, how did they know about Theon and Jeyne escaping?  The only thing I can think of for that would be someone from Stannis camp sending messages to someone at The Wall....and I have to admit, none of that makes a metric ton of sense either.   

 

That letter makes no sense and the only thing that seems clear is that the Men of the Wall either created it, or opened it and added things to it...or fully created it to lure Jon into doing exactly what he did.  His attack was planned.  The "Pink smear of Wax" isn't the same thing as the seal of a house....so yeah, mostly the letter makes no real sense and it's obvious that it had been read by people at the Wall before being given to him. 

 

 

 

The first half of Daenerys's chapter is really, really slow. Just push through it. It all comes together in the end.

 

Oh boy, well good to know going in, thank you :-)   

Edited February 20, 2016 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

So guys, I'm sorry but I did something I've never done before.  I just read the end of a chapter and the epilogue.   

 

I'm sorry, I just couldn't face that many pages of Dany's story season five

because it's not like I don't know what happens already there and sure enough, it was what the show essentially portrayed

 

I almost can't even believe that Martin has essentially hit the reset on Dany's story: she's back with a Dothraki Horde, only this time not as the Kahl's wife.   Oh for god's sake, really?  I'm sure I will eventually read the chapter, but it was keeping me from wanting to read at all, so I just read the last two paragraphs and then read the epilogue.  

 

At this moment, I'm feeling pretty freaking good about that decision, because the Epilogue was GREAT.  Weird, sometimes a bit confusing.  Who the hell were those children with Varys?  Why in the world was it important to Varys that the children kill him with daggers?? 

 

Everything else made sense and I felt genuinely sorry for Kevan, even though I was surprised that apparently he suggested Cersei's punishment.   

 

I also nearly fell over when Varys spoke about Aegon as if he's really the son of Rhaegar and Elia.  I find that so very difficult to believe, although why Varys would lie to a dying man, I've no clue whatsoever.  Varys was also presumably in King's Landing when the children were killed.   Wasn't there some thing about Rhaegar having been a twin, but his twin died?  Something like that?  Any chance that Elia actually had twins and one was spirited away at birth?  I'm assuming so that the whole "three heads of the dragon" thing wouldn't seem to have been fulfilled...maybe to fool his King Crazypants?  

 

It's the only thing I could think of that might have had a baby being taken away and kept elsewhere without needing everyone involved to be ridiculous prescient about what the Mountain was going to do.  

[stillshimpy]

So I can now spend the evening reading what the heck is under spoiler tags, since ....a few Dany details aside....I'm now officially just another Bookwalker :-D 

[stillshimpy]

Answering stuff under spoiler tags! Wheeee!! 

 

From Terra regarding Quentyn

 

uh-oh, she won't be happy upon reading of the three days of agony and the ghastly state Quent is ^^' Poor Shimpy!

 

This was one instance where mostly I was just astounded that anyone ELSE lived.  It's at least a little par for Martin's course to make deaths just as heinous and drawn out as possible.  So mostly when I read about Quentin's eyes, I just sort of rolled mine and was glad that I never, ever eat while reading these books.  

 

Quentyn's just going to be a character that troubles me and reminds me of Martin's Achille's Heel and Poker Tell:  If he goes out of his way to make someone likable or winning -- don't get attached to that character.  Something beyond hideous will happen to them.  Particularly if the word "Honor" is attached to them.  

 

I was surprised that Hizzy was still alive at the end of it, but my goodness, Mereen just dragged on and on for me.  I wasn't surprised that Selmy was alive.  About fifteen people told me that the actor wrote a letter begging not to be killed off.  Twas a bit of a clue that he lived in the books ;-)   Mostly by the time they got to the trebuchets hurling corpses I was just really sort of befuddled.  Clearly Martin adores cliffhangers, but that was one of the first times it occurred to me:  Oh, I'm really supposed to care about these characters and what's going on there?  They aren't just set dressing for Dany?  Interesting and....didn't work for me on this read through :-/  I was a little bit impatient with Mereen and its cast of thousands.  It was like he'd been possessed by the ghost of Cecil B. DeMille there.  

 

ETA:  

Anyways most people believe that Stannis defeats the Freys using the ice lake and allies with Manderly to present his magic sword to Ramsay to fake the Boltons out and then using the Karstarks' clothing, he dresses up his men and opens to the gates of Winterfell for Stannis' troops.

 

I...what?  People believe that?  That's not something that would have ever naturally occurred to me.  Stannis is generally so straightforward.  It's a really fun, interesting theory.  I'm in no way trying to be a jerk here either, but I swear to you my reaction upon reading that was "Whoa....interesting.  Also, some of these theorists must get amazing strains of weed, because that theory is utterly fabulous....and was definitely first bandied about over a bong."  which is not the same thing as saying I think it's wrong, or stupid, just man....someone had a mind freed from all shackles to come up with that one.  I'm slightly dazed just reading it. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

And....I'm going to have to read the Dany chapter, I take it:  

 

 

 

These are the good Meereen chapters!  In that something other than Dany pining for Daario happens.  King deposed, dragons loosed, Quentin fried like a calamari!  Plus Dany's vision quest and all it's implications.

 

Why the hell it didn't occur to me that there'd be more prophetic weirdness in the final Dany chapter, I don't know.  But there's a vision quest of sorts?  

 

Okay, fine, I will read that tomorrow.  I promise.   Then I'll go back to reading under spoiler bars in here tomorrow.  For tonight I am going to read the thread that I have desperately wanted to read since the day I saw its title:  Why the make ______ such a _______?  

 

Also, NO it wouldn't occur to me that Quentyn was going to be eaten/fried/flambe'd and let us not discuss his eyes, okay? Because Good Barf, Good Grief and Good Gods.  I haven't eaten meat in years at this point, so yes, people cooking?  Not going to spring that readily to my mind.  If Quentyn had been a salmon, I might have thought "Oh yeah, he'll get eaten" because those I still see as food sources.  People? Yeah, not something that goes hand springing through my mind, thank the bountiful lords of mercy and decency.  Barfadoodledoo. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Shimpy, do you remember what Mirri Maz Duur's taunt was?

[Lady S.]

I also nearly fell over when Varys spoke about Aegon as if he's really the son of Rhaegar and Elia.  I find that so very difficult to believe, although why Varys would lie to a dying man, I've no clue whatsoever.  Varys was also presumably in King's Landing when the children were killed.   Wasn't there some thing about Rhaegar having been a twin, but his twin died?  Something like that?  Any chance that Elia actually had twins and one was spirited away at birth?  I'm assuming so that the whole "three heads of the dragon" thing wouldn't seem to have been fulfilled...maybe to fool his King Crazypants?  

oing to do.  

No, Rhaegar never had a twin. Though it could very well be a crack theory suggested somewhere, with no real basis. The kids with Varys are his "little birds", first mentioned in his overheard convo with Illyrio in the first book. They're children with their tongues removed (the better for secret-keeping) who were taught to read and write and sent through the secret passages of the Red Keep to spy on people for Varys.

[dragonbone]

shimpy, note that quite a few chapters of the next book have been published.  I'm not sure if info from them is called out under spoilers.  I don't think anything shocking has been published from Winds, so I wouldn't worry about it unless you want to stay unspoiled of that.

Edited February 21, 2016 by dragonbone

[Andeleisha]

So I can now spend the evening reading what the heck is under spoiler tags, since ....a few Dany details aside....I'm now officially just another Bookwalker :-D

Congratulations, shimpy! Although I'd exercise caution venturing out into the wilder Internet as there are still the sample Winds of Winter chapters out there :)

What should we do next ?! Put together a list of the best meta essays? Dump everything we know about season six? The first teaser came out last week, shimpy, you could watch it now!

[stillshimpy]

You mean the line that I knew even before I read the books because no bookwalker attempting to scale the wall under cover of ignorance, could remember it was different in the book to the show?  :-)  Yes, I do: 

 

When the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.  

 

But she's talking about Drogo....the Also Crisped.   So is there a theory about that?  I know the whole "Sun's son" thing:

The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

 

and then there was this too: 

 

better a man should swallow scorpions than trust in the spawn of shadows, who dare not show their face beneath the sun (I frellin' love the highlight feature in kindles :-)   ) 

 

The ever helpful, clear-as-mud Quaithe kicked this in too:   to go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow....

 

But I'm fairly certain the It-is-known Knowers may have called her Quaithe's sincerity into question in the above quote, right? 

You mean the line that I knew even before I read the books because no bookwalker attempting to scale the wall under cover of ignorance, could remember it was different in the book to the show?  :-)  Yes, I do: 

 

When the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.  

 

But she's talking about Drogo....the Also Crisped.   So is there a theory about that?  I know the whole "Sun's son" thing:

The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

 

and then there was this too: 

 

better a man should swallow scorpions than trust in the spawn of shadows, who dare not show their face beneath the sun (I frellin' love the highlight feature in kindles :-)   ) 

 

The ever helpful, clear-as-mud Quaithe kicked this in too:   to go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow....

 

But I'm fairly certain the It-is-known Knowers may have called her Quaithe's sincerity into question in the above quote, right? 

[stillshimpy]

Oh thanks for the warning about the possibility of book six spoilers, Andaleisha! 

 

No there was something, something about Rhaegar's being sorrowful and playing his harp and some secret about something that happened when he was born.  When I mentioned it here, I could have sworn someone said he had a twin....or.....jeez, am I thinking of stuff from Dunk and Egg, maybe?  Sorry, I didn't highlight that one (at least not according to my keyword search).  I brought it up because I was kvetching along the lines that "Oh splendid, now dreamy, harp playing make-everyone-weak-in-the-knees boy has a secret sadness?  Oh yippee."  Or something very much like that. 

[Delta1212]

Well, there was certainly a sun that rose in the West and set in the East.

[Mya Stone]

Eek I couldn't hide my enthusiasm with the title edit! :)