Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[WindyNights]

Well I was just telling Mya this over on Facebook -- and after this I truly am going to go have a glass wine, or a piece cake....OR BOTH .... -- but Quentyn's arc is all about how incredibly superficial that world is and he stands in direct contrast to Daario. He's got no flash, but he has good substance, which never ends well for the people of this tale.

But yeah, realizing that it was almost certainly Brandon Stark who had sex with Ashara Payne was just incredibly heart breaking too. He told the servants to shut up so that Catelyn would never learn that Ashara had had a daughter and thereby figure it out. Brandon fucked Ashara Payne basically on the way to his own wedding, right? What a charmer he was. Ugh. Yes, yes, I know. People didn't marry for love, they married for alliances, but maybe pick someone your brother didn't actively have a crush on, you fucktard. The whole "only going by the last name" thing was what gave that away in the sentence before the daughter thing did.

As I told Mya I hope Ned kicked Brandon's ass for like an eon in the Westerosi afterlife for giving Ned the gift that kept on giving. Ned Stark....never got to have any fun of his own....spent most of his life covering for other people in that department.

I never thought about Brandon Stark having sex with Ashara Dayne on the way to his own wedding but that actually makes a surprising amount of sense as it matches the timeline better.

I like to think that the story that one guy told to Davos about the fisherman's daughter that Ned impregnated was true.

[Avaleigh]

And that's why poor, tragic, honorable Prince Toast was not in the show.

I still feel this was a mistake and he only would have needed two to three scenes to be established and bring considerable action to the plot. I also like seeing the contrast of a successful dragontaming vs. dragontaming gone wrong. I think it makes Dany's feat all the more impressive. 

 

Regarding season 5 minor spoilers.

Dorne would have been so much more interesting to me if they'd kept Arianne and Quentyn over the Sand Snakes. Arianne could have taken on some of book Ellaria's role. They could still keep Trystane and Myrcella and had Arianne participating in the Queenmaker plot.

Oh well. 

 

ETA:

 

Ashara is one more woman to add to the list as highborn women having sex out of wedlock. Another reason why the Jeyne Westerling thing wasn't all that strange to me as far as her "nursing" him. Ashara, Jeyne Westerling, Cersei, Lysa, Arianne, Asha, Lady Dustin, Myranda Royce, Edric Storm's Florent mother, show!Margaery, numerous Targaryens, etc. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Alayne Stone]

My last spoiler tag was how I was a little surprised you didn't even contemplate the idea that he might be burned or eaten by one of the dragons. ;)

 

I always had it in my head that Brandon and Ashara actually did the deed at Harrenhal but the timeline is too convoluted for me to actually sit down and try to piece it all together. But to have hooked up with her on his way to wedding Catelyn? He'd have to ride from Winterfell, past Riverrun, all the way down to Starfall at the North Eastern end of Dorne, then back to Riverrun where he gets the news that Lyanna has been kidnapped? No that's just way too much jetpacking around Westeros. It had to of happened before.

 

And yes, everything about the tourney of Harrenhal is soapy. You've got Barristan and Ned both making eyes at Ashara, who dances with Brandon. You've got Lyanna Stark conspiring with Howland and her brothers to teach some bully squires a lesson. You've got Rhaegar playing his magical harp during the feast and making all the ladies cry. I'm surprised the CW hasn't jumped on a Robert's Rebellion spin off. ;)

 

I still don't know how you've come to the conclusion that Lyanna was kidnapped. Everything's so very vague up to this point.

 

If Lyanna turns out to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree, my money is on her running off with him willingly.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[Ashara Payne]

I'm ashamed to admit I was quite looking forward to the Quentyn roasting scene on the show. Not that I get any kind of ghoulish pleasure from seeing innocent people suffer, but I was anticipating a really atmospheric, beautifully lit scene, with a kind of 'look behind you' vibe as the viewer saw what Quentyn didn't (initially out of focus but gradually coming into focus), only to see a look of dawning horror on his face, all accompanied by an awesome soundtrack. Season 5

The alternative scene in the show had none of that. It seemed gratuitously horrific.

Also, apologies, shimpy, for my username throwing you off there. Maybe I should change it. I love the clever ASOIAF ones but have failed to come up with one. Not that I've tried. Aryamad is a good one.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Ashara Payne

[WindyNights]

My last spoiler tag was how I was a little surprised you didn't even contemplate the idea that he might be burned or eaten by one of the dragons. ;)

I always had it in my head that Brandon and Ashara actually did the deed at Harrenhal but the timeline is too convoluted for me to actually sit down and try to piece it all together. But to have hooked up with her on his way to wedding Catelyn? He'd have to ride from Winterfell, past Riverrun, all the way down to Starfall at the North Eastern end of Dorne, then back to Riverrun where he gets the news that Lyanna has been kidnapped? No that's just way too much jetpacking around Westeros. It had to of happened before.

And yes, everything about the tourney of Harrenhal is soapy. You've got Barristan and Ned both making eyes at Ashara, who dances with Brandon. You've got Lyanna Stark conspiring with Howland and her brothers to teach some bully squires a lesson. You've got Rhaegar playing his magical harp during the feast and making all the ladies cry. I'm surprised the CW hasn't jumped on a Robert's Rebellion spin off. ;)

I still don't know how you've come to the conclusion that Lyanna was kidnapped. Everything's so very vague up to this point.

If Lyanna turns out to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree, my money is on her running off with him willingly.

Actually Ashara Dayne was one of Elia Martell's ladies-in-waiting so she'd be at King's Landing. She was likely at or near Riverrun to watch Brandon Stark marry Catelyn Tully. It is a big marriage. These guys aren't nobodies so it's likely a lot of important people were invited. Edited February 12, 2016 by WindyNights

[mac123x]

The Barristan chapter ends with "the dragons are loose", so the end of "The Dragontamer" was pretty foregone, though I still liked it a lot.  However, it felt a little like a shaggy dog story, and is one of the plot threads that I thought needed editing.  This chapter was consequential, but it just made me wish the editor had gotten GRRM to trim out some of the damn build-up.  Like the entire Quentyn story prior to his arrival in Meereen.

[WSmith84]

Yeah, I'm not really sure most of Quentyn's previous chapters were needed either. A slightly longer Dragontamer chapter could have covered the background details (if we needed to know them) and I wish the editor had consigned them to the bin, to be honest.

 

One more detail that makes Brandon's behaviour more unpleasant is that, according to Meera's tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Brandon actually asked Ashara to dance with Ned, because Ned was too shy to ask himself (she did dance with him, btw). So it's not like he didn't have a clue that Ned wasn't into her. That's assuming that he did actually sleep with her of course.

[WindyNights]

My last spoiler tag was how I was a little surprised you didn't even contemplate the idea that he might be burned or eaten by one of the dragons. ;)

I always had it in my head that Brandon and Ashara actually did the deed at Harrenhal but the timeline is too convoluted for me to actually sit down and try to piece it all together. But to have hooked up with her on his way to wedding Catelyn? He'd have to ride from Winterfell, past Riverrun, all the way down to Starfall at the North Eastern end of Dorne, then back to Riverrun where he gets the news that Lyanna has been kidnapped? No that's just way too much jetpacking around Westeros. It had to of happened before.

And yes, everything about the tourney of Harrenhal is soapy. You've got Barristan and Ned both making eyes at Ashara, who dances with Brandon. You've got Lyanna Stark conspiring with Howland and her brothers to teach some bully squires a lesson. You've got Rhaegar playing his magical harp during the feast and making all the ladies cry. I'm surprised the CW hasn't jumped on a Robert's Rebellion spin off. ;)

I still don't know how you've come to the conclusion that Lyanna was kidnapped. Everything's so very vague up to this point.

If Lyanna turns out to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree, my money is on her running off with him willingly.

Okay so here's the timeline I cooked up

281 AC- The Year of the False Spring, the tourney at Harrenhal, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Jaime became a Kingsguard and Lyanna is crowned the Queen of Love and Beauty. Tywin also quit his job out of anger at Aerys naming his son to the LG.

282 AC-

1. Aegon is born and Rhaegar is told that Elia won't be able to hear anymore children.

2. Brandon is en route from the North to his wedding to Cat at Riverrun. Lyanna is already in the Riverlands en route to her brother's wedding when Rhaegar and his party of KG take her to the Tower of Joy presumably.

3. Brandon hears about this and with his body of best friends turns away from Riverrun to KL. He gets to outside the Red Keep and calls for Rhaegar to "come out and die". Brandon and his party are imprisoned.

4. Rickard Stark and other nobles (200 men in total) are called to King's Landing, where they are executed with their sons. The executed includes Jon Arryn's heir, Elbert Arryn

5. King Aerys II Targaryen orders Jon Arryn to send him the heads of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark, who had been Arryn's wards. Jon refuses and raises his banners in revolt instead. This marks the beginning of Robert's Rebellion.

6. Gulltown, the Vale's only city and the third largest city in Westeros rises against the Vale for the Targaryens.

7. Ned Stark decided to take go through the Mountains of the Moon, the Fingers and Sisterton to the North to call his banners. He supposedly hitches a ride from a fisherman's daughter who he impregnates.

8 Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon fight the loyalist lords of the Vale in the taking of Gulltown. Robert kills it's lord, Marq Grafton, in combat.

9. Robert takes a boat from Gulltown to Storm's End where he discovers that some of the storm lords have declared for the Targaryens.

10. The battles at Summerhall are fought. Robert Baratheon fights three battles in one day, defeating three independent loyalist forces before they could converge upon him. The Lords Grandison, Cafferen, and Fell all fall to Robert. Robert kills Lord Fell in single combat and takes the other lords hostage. He goes to Storm's End to leave his prisoners and makes them his captured lord his allies.

11. Robert heads west toward the Reach to secure his flank and leaves Stannis in charge of Storm's End. Robert's forces crash against Mace's van led be Randyll Tarlt and the Battle of Ashford is fought. Randyll Tarly defeats Robert Baratheon at Ashford, before the bulk of Mace Tyrell's forces arrive. Robert is forced to flee.

12. The Tyrell army heads towards Storm's End to besiege it while Robert's army flees north to link up with his allies.

13. Cat is betrothed to Ned for an alliance with the Riverlands.

14. Aerys removes Owen Merryweather as Hand and appoints Jon Connington to Hand.

283 AC

1. Jon Connington pursues a wounded Robert Baratheon to the Stoney Sept where he hides. He searches house to house. Robert apparently impregnated a whore during his stay here. Hosted Tully, Jon Arryn and Ned Stark with their forces converge at the Stoney Sept where the battle begins. Jon Connington kills Denys Arryn, Jon Arryn's last heir, and wounds Hoster Tully. Robert Baratheon comes out of hiding and counterattacks. Jon Connington has to retreat after this. Rhaegar's squire, Myles Mooton, is killed by Robert Baratheon.

2. Hoster manages to make a match between Lysa and Jon Arryn who needed another heir. Ned and Jon Arryn marry Cat and Lysa on a double ceremony. Cat becomes pregnant.

3. Due to the outcome of the Battle of the Bells, Lord Jon Connington is fired from the office of Hand of the King and stripped of his lands and title and exiled. Lord Qarlton Chelsted is named in his stead.

4. After the Battle of the Bells had been fought, Barristan Selmy and Jon Darry of the Kingsguard were sent into the riverlands to retrieve the remnants of Connington's army, while the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Ser Gerold Hightower, was sent by King Aerys to find Rhaegar. Rhaegar eventually returned, and managed to convince his father to ask Lord Tywin Lannister for help. From Casterly Rock the only reply was silence. Lyanna is likely already heavily pregnant with Jon Snow or less likely Snow is already born.

Note: Ser Gerold Hightower was left at the Tower of Joy.

5. The Dornish sent 10,000 troops up the Kingsroad to support Aerys after he ungracefully reminded them that he had Elia and her kids with him. Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard assumed command of them. A host of reachmen also join Rhaegar's army.

6. Rhaegar marches his 40,000 men composed of reachmen, Dornishmen and the remnants of Jon Con's army ( loyalist storm lords, river lords, vale lords and crown lords) to fight Robert's 35,000 man army. They match north as Robert's army matches south.

7. Aerys hatches the wildfire plot.

8. The Battle of the Trident commences and Robert kills Rhaegar but is heavily wounded himself. Prince Llewyn is killed by Lyn Corbray. Ser Jonothor Darry of the KG is killed and Ser Barristan is captured. Roose tells Robert to kill Barristan but Robert chooses to be merciful. Ned alone marches to KL as Robert stays back as he's wounded.

9. The Greyjoys join the Rebels and attack the Reach. Lord Quellon is slain at the Battle of the Mander and Balon becomes the new lord and heads back towards the Iron Islands.

10. Aerys skips Aegon in the succession and names Viserys his heir after he learns Rhaegar died.

11. Aerys kills Lord Chelsted after he finds out about the Wildfire plot. Aerys names Rossart, the head of the pyromancers, as Hand of the King. He also rapes and impregnates his wife with Daenerys at this point. He then sends Vissrys and his wife away to Dragonstone while keeping Aegon, Rhaenys and Princess Elia Martell near him to ensure Dorne's loyalty.

12. The Lannister army arrives at KL and beats Ned there. Maester Pycelle tricks Aerys into opening his gates when Tywin pretends to be Aerys' ally. Aerys opens the gates and the sack begins. Jaime kills Rossart and Aerys after Aerys orders him to kill his father. Elia and the Targ kids are killed by Ser Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane.

12. Ned Stark arrives at KL and sees Jaime sitting on Aerys' throne. Robert later arrives to KL and Tywin presents the Targs to him.

14. Ned and Robert argue about killing the Targaryen kids and a rift grows between them.

15. Ned heads towards Storm's End to relieve the siege and Mace Tyrell surrenders to him.

16. Ned then rides to Dorne towards the Tower of Joy.

17. Ned fights the Kingsguard there including Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Gerold Hightower. 7 versus 3. Everyone dies including Ethan Glover and Arthur Dayne except for Ned and Howland Reed. Ned finds Lyanna inside and she dies while extracting a promise from him.

18. Afterwards, Eddard pulled stones from the tower to make eight cairns for the dead combatants

19. Ned heads towards Starfall to return Arthur Dayne's sword, Dawn, to Ashara Dayne. Ashara at this point has already borne a stillborn daughter and throws herself off a cliff afterwards.

20. Ned returns to KL and Robert and him both come together with their mutual mourning of Lyanna.

284 AC

1. Ned heads north and arrives at Winterfell with Jon Snow.

2. Cat arrives with Robb at Winterfell only to see Jon Snow already installed there with his wetnurse.

3. Daenerys is born and her mother dies.

4. Ser William Darry smuggles Daenerys and Viserys off the island towards Braavos.

5. Stannis assaults the island of Dragonstone and conquers it bringing Robert's Rebellion to an end.

I think that's about it for the timeline as far as we know.

The Barristan chapter ends with "the dragons are loose", so the end of "The Dragontamer" was pretty foregone, though I still liked it a lot. However, it felt a little like a shaggy dog story, and is one of the plot threads that I thought needed editing. This chapter was consequential, but it just made me wish the editor had gotten GRRM to trim out some of the damn build-up. Like the entire Quentyn story prior to his arrival in Meereen.

There were two chapters prior to his arrival in Meereen.

The Windblown chapter is there to show us firsthand of what happened at Astapor. I mean we didn't really need it but I liked seeing it.

The Merchant's Man chapter is really there though to first establish Volantis and Tyrion's chapter there fleshes it out.

Edited February 12, 2016 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

On second thought, Quentyn's first and second chapter should've been one chapter.

[stillshimpy]

Oh yeah, I caught that part on both ...on both counts...actually.  That Ashara Dayne was Elia's lady-in-waiting and therefore, with Elia and that Brandon would have known that Ned had a crush on Ashara Dayne.  Don't worry about your username throwing me off, Ashara Payne, I have a much harder time with "Oh well, that's sort of my real name and it's already freaky enough that my name is in the book...seeing as I've met all of two people with it in my entire life...."  so the Payne/Dayne thing isn't throwing me, I just easily confuse the two.  

 

Ned killed Ashara Dayne's brother at the Tower of Joy and dropped his bones off on the way back to the wife he certainly never cheated on and having to live with the knowledge that his brother had fucked the girl he liked, just because he could....oh and then the treat of covering for whatever the hell he was covering with for Lyanna ...and you...this series might as well have had subtitle that read: Sucked to be Ned, because like...whoa, really.  He let his wife be furious with him for years on behalf of both of his siblings.  

 

 

 

I still don't know how you've come to the conclusion that Lyanna was kidnapped. Everything's so very vague up to this point.

 

It didn't seem vague when Selmy was thinking about how the children of the king who had married love, blah blah de blah de bloo....basically stated that Rhaegar was also an entitled jackass about women and that poor sickly Elia, with her gentle heart (gods help her if she was also honorable, because none shall be so fucked....and I know her death story....so....she was exceptionally honorable, clearly)  it seemed like it was fairly clear about stating that Rhaegar ended up feeling like he was entitled to take what he wanted and follow his heart. 

 

And honestly, someone other than Ned in the Stark family needs to have not been a raging jackass. 

 

If we ever see Benjen again, we'll likely learn that he joined the Night's Watch because Rickard had his wicked way with whatever woman Benjen thought was cute.  

 

Mostly, it would just be nice if Ned didn't spend his adult life being blamed for the idiocy of two of his siblings, but also Selmy did think about how Rhaegar was indulged in the whole "see, want, take" of it all to the extent that his father was convinced he was planning to depose him ...which...from what we know of Aerys? Good!  But you know what's not good?  Insulting your wife, in front of her face, while flipping the bird to every potential ally you'd need to pull that move off.  

 

Rhaegar sounds like he should have been a drinking buddy of Brandon's, basically.   Now that all relies on Selmy, Simple Soul, Barristan being correct in his assessment of the matter.  

 

So again, poor Mya ends up hearing a crap-ton of stuff from me twice, but whereas the story in Mereen practically makes me want to jump off a building to escape it, the past story is fascinating to me.   I can't find any of the Mereen stuff interesting, because Martin has gone so far out of his way to make it absolutely disgusting on so many levels, and that's not even including the culinary bullshit that makes me want to give up eating anything, while swearing off sex (and we all know how I feel about vows of celibacy by now, right?  I'm not Vow Positive, shall we say?) ...it's just tedious and overly ....just again...disgusting.  The Tapestry in Hizzy's bed chamber (where I swear I thought it was going to turn out that he was a pedophile and was horrifyingly relieved that he was merely screwing some poor person who he referred to as property)  was revolting. 

 

It's all so over-the-top ridiculous "Oh sure, you'd totally have that tapestry hanging as the King Consort to a woman with pets who.....OH DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN...." 

 

No, it didn't occur to me that Quentyn would be roasted like a turkey leg at a Renaissance Fair because....fucking....eeeeewwwwwww....and why? Why, god, why??? introduce some poor, plain, good, decent, dedicated, diligent character into a cast of Frajillion so that you can COOK HIM in order to further upset the humans reading your prose...and by the way....if you think I haven't guessed what's about to go down (TIMBER) at the WALL, well ser, I HAVE.  

 

I'm a little worked up over this.  If you haven't guessed.  My dogs put themselves to bed an hour ago.  I remain, stewing in my own juices and being a little irked.  

 

He cooked the lad, for fuck's sake.  COOKED HIM. 

 

Turkey Almighty, cut if the fuck out. 

 

ETA:  In an entirely true moment from my life this afternoon:  I walked down the street in the (for once) less than miserable freezing cold, lost in thought,  Thinking of plot points and fairly gentle spirited NPR podcast I was listening to as I walked my two dogs, one  of whom, you'd have to be a frelling idiot to think it is a good idea to FUCK with the person walking him, because whereas he is as gentle as a lamb crossed with a teddy bear, he's a giant motherfucker of a dog with a brindle coat....so he looks like the result of a pitbull eating a mastiff, essentially.   

 

So there I am, wandering down the street, in a red coat....a diminutive figure with a giant dog and an attendant fraggle (picture above) and some jackass of a teenager rolls by in a Mercedes and thinks it would be funny to get as close to the sidewalk as humanly possible while his passenger yells the C word at me loud enough to penetrate my earbuds.  

 

At which point I turned into the woman who is actually from the east coast, you little Mercedes fucker, that I am and proceeded to dance in sheer rage, screaming, "Get your little dicked ass over here and say that bullshit to my face, you piece of shit!!" as I hopped up and down, mad with rage while trying to restrain my dog...who it turns out is not a gentle souled teddy bear of a creature, but instead reacted to "I think someone just enraged my the person who cuddles and walks me....so he should die...."  dog.  

 

and chased him down my tiny street, hopping up and down, screaming obscenities and giving him the finger the entire way. 

 

On the upside, the neighbors are likely really going to hesitate to try and sell me girl scout cookies in the future, so ...there's that.. 

 

I'm blaming George Martin for my reaction, by the way.  Why?  Well, damn folks, I was really not in the mood to have some "I just read Catcher in the Rye" piece of shit child cross my path in such a manner.  

 

Annnnd the plot point I was pondering as Planet Money talked to me?   "I wonder how Martin's going to kill Quentyn?"    Bad timing, Mercedes, Child, Bad Timing.   As they stopped at the stop sign, because apparently it had occurred to them that I was raising enough kane for it to be prudent to not break the damned law when anyone with eardrums was now staring, they politely pulled away as I hopped up and down, giving them the finger, it still hadn't occurred to me...."I bet he'll have him COOKED." 

Edited February 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

Brandon actually sounds like he'd be Robert Baratheon's best friend. Rhaegar is a tad too melancholic to be friends with those two. Then again Ned Stark is best buds with Robert so maybe not.

@shimpy Well, you can kind of see why a big portion of the fanbase hates Meereen.

Although imo it improves on re-reads because the first time around all the names are confusing as well as all awful stuff going on.

Edited February 12, 2016 by WindyNights

[dragonbone]

This:

 

Yeah, sending the poor guy there with so few companions was always going to result in his being more than a little humped

 

 

So how was this plan ever going to work?  Supposedly the Martells spent years plotting and planning and the result is well, disappointing.  Was this intentional or incompetent?  Although I guess part of the failure belong on Quentin just being a little bit too stubborn.  In the end he may have "charmed" one of the dragons, but he couldn't manage the second.

Edited February 12, 2016 by dragonbone

[Terra Nova]

I will start saying that despite what Barry may think, most surely Ashara wasn't 'dishonored' since she's Dornish and she screws whomever she likes - thankfully! -. At least I like to think that Brandon didn't take 'her flower' or something like that and that Ashara had the chance to have a healthy albeit short sex life with partners she liked.

 

And there are theories stating that Benjen somehow witnessed the abduction (or Lyanna eloping, whatever) or let it happen, and he took the black as atonement, instead of marrying and helping rebuilding after the war. So if it's true, considering Benjen was a kid at the time, we have two Stark brothers ruined by their siblings. It's an... improvement?

Secondly, as Shimpy already suspected after peering the beginning of that chapter, there is no evidence that Hizzy is in cahoots with Yunkai, despite what the Shavepate says: these guys came for their own interests, not for saving noblemen of a rival city. And, well, who wouldn't want to kill a man-eating dragon? Hardly a proof of guilt.
Neither I think he's the Harpy. The Green Grace seems the best option, as mentioned already, for three different reasons:

- evidence: she urges a marriage, with a guy of her choice, stating on multiple occasions that otherwise 'they' will always see Dany like a foreigner savage and conqueror. Also, she's been promptly reassured by Dany that she would never ever harm her little hostages and bam! The killing spree starts again. When Dany offends her cousin with the whole slave weavers thing, the girls are killed in retaliation almost immediately.

- she is the religious head of the city, and has the power to motivate both her fellow noblemen and the poor, by launching a holy war against the faithless usurper.

 

- this one is more meta: As Shimpy said after Dany's first chapter, she's learning the wrong lessons, or in this case, she's not learning at all: the female, kindly religious leader with healing skills of a settlement Dany invaded and torched may be a little upset by that and is secretly waiting to strike back at the invader, and Dany doesn't suspect a thing... jeez, I would have expected her to learn that lesson after the first book ^^'

 

After this last round of posts I now strongly encourage Shimpy to read The Princess and the Queen and The Rogue Prince, since

she thinks Dany is immune to fire and she tamed a dragon because of that

Unless someone braver than me doesn't want to stir that beehive ^^'

 

Also, maybe I'm being over-cautious, but maybe it would be better to put the names of the sample chapters under spoiler, some are pretty revealing by themselves

Theon, in light of the Pink Letter

 

ETA: Also I love how Shimpy manages to foretell something in a joking way:

'If I don't see Davos introduced to the axe I won't believe his death!'

'This is Lady Lu'

'Oh shit'

 

'I hope Joffrey dies soon!'

*chokes chokes drools chokes*

 

'No dogs at least'

'Dog'

Edited February 12, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

@Terra The (not for shimpy)

Pink Letter states that Ramsay wants Theon back not that Theon is dead

.

[Terra Nova]

I know, but

some may think that he is indeed dead, only not found, or whatever. The power of that letter is that readers know nothing at all. I think it's just better not to say anything. Just like no one here said something like 'ah, what a nice last Davos chapter, I can't wait to read about his trip to Skagos next book!', thus spoiling that we don't get other POVs of his. I would not talk about Barry's chapters from WoW, for example, because there would still be time for him to croak in these last three chapters + epilogue, and Shimpy is still dead sure Hizdahr is about to die, so maybe feels the same for Barristan. He sure sounds doomed enough

Edited February 12, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

So how was this plan ever going to work?  Supposedly the Martells spent years plotting and planning and the result is well, disappointing.  Was this intentional or incompetent?  Although I guess part of the failure belong on Quentin just being a little bit too stubborn.  In the end he may have "charmed" one of the dragons, but he couldn't manage the second.

The biggest failure was in not communicating to Viserys that Dorne had his back (and a bride).  I don't know why the marriage pact was kept secret.  Instead of courting the Dothraki he could have gone to the Martells for help.  But that would have been a different story:  No dragons.  No endless wandering around Essos.  And most likely no Queen Dany.

 

I agree the GG is probably the Harpy, but I'd really be surprised to find out Hizzy is innocent.  The Yunkai were willing to negotiate a peace once Hizzy was made king.  Once everyone agreed to kill a dragon (good luck with that) I think the Yunkai would have gone home, leaving the Wise Masters back in charge of Meereen.

 

Windy, thanks for the timeline.  That is helpful.

 

Geez, Harrenhall must have been quite the party.  I still think Raegar seduced Lyanna and she ran off with him willingly.  Dumb, starstruck teenager thinking their love was for the ages.  It's a not uncommon story.  (See what I did there?)

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, as witnessed by my making a profane spectacle of myself for all the neighbors to see  I've found Mereen frustrating in a a couple of ways that I'll go into in a second.  By the way, I've literally never shouted obscenities at anyone as a response before, but since the kid rolled up behind me, he set off ye olde fight-or-flight response and unfortunately, I have almost zero flight response in my entire person.  This is why I am almost certainly going to end up being a cautionary tale someday,  but that's neither here nor there.  

 

 

 

So how was this plan ever going to work?  Supposedly the Martells spent years plotting and planning and the result is well, disappointing.  Was this intentional or incompetent?  Although I guess part of the failure belong on Quentin just being a little bit too stubborn.  In the end he may have "charmed" one of the dragons, but he couldn't manage the second.

 

However, specifically Mereen just tends to darken my mood, because it is such a wheel-spinner of a plot.  You know, I've previously complained that the Show made Oberyn more likable so that the moment where he dies will be more of a gut punch.  I now think they may have been inspired to do that by the inclusion of Quentin.   I do find it frustrating that Martin introduced a character, gave him an interesting task and then just steadfastly set him on the road to ruin because of things like: Really?  You're going to send this kid off with no real protection -- I mean the guys who went with him are (were, it would seem) great and all -- and I do get the whole "we must not let Kings Landing learn of our plan!  They might plot to kill us more than they already do anyway, because....Cersei -- but it wouldn't take a brain trust to figure out a slightly better plan than that one.   Hire guards, conceal his identity by saying he's Lord Smigglypuff (or what the hell ever), and give the kid a fighting chance to make to his destination.   

 

Sure, the need for secrecy was high, blah blah, bloo bloo, but Doran kept this plan under his hat for well over a decade and I know he had to do a last minute game change on that, but it strains credulity that he really couldn't figure out a way to a) help the Targ kids surreptitiously so that they didn't stand a chance of dying in any number of ways, including the way in which Viserys bit it  b) having spectacularly failed in that, the easier of the task -- Jebus dude, at least round up a couple of seasoned adults to go with him and give him advice.  

 

So it was frustrating almost from the moment Quentin set off and became a case of "Wha....?  Why didn't you come up with what would pass for a feasible way of getting him there?  I get not drawing attention to him, but disguise him as a spice merchant, give him a badass crew your-overly-itching-to-fight countrymen , including someone who has been married, seen more of the world, ever been to a court?"  

 

I was not a fan of the Queenmaker plot for the "how was that going to work?"  but it had more structure to it than "We'll send Quentin off with a bunch of buddies and hope it all turns out!"  Aside from the times he actually did rather well figuring out just how to get there , once there the plan apparently consisted of "give her this piece of paper" ....and then....?  It was really frustrating because whereas I felt for the poor kid, the limitations of his age and experience always were going to doom him and Doran should have known that as a grown-ass man.  

 

Plus, the Dornish "trust no one" "hot-blooded, passionate people prone to fighting and yelling for blood"  "a society of intrigue and plots, famous for poisoning!"  is fine, it's fun in its way.    Mereen, however, just was convoluted past the point of my ability to care.  Disturbing dietary mentions aside, they're not actually a particularly interesting people.  Now, that might be because so much of Mereen is seen through Dany at her most tedious and Martin showing one of his writing weaknesses: I appreciate that the guy has so many main character who are women.  Yay! Equality.   That's fun.   

 

Sadly, he leans heavily on lot of girly stereotypes to bring their characters to life.   Yes, many teenagers are obsessed with dating, the opposite gender, but ....it's not interesting stuff to anyone older than fifteen.  It's also a little reductive to have most of Dany's long arc be dedicated to pining for Daario, who is a ridiculous figure and not interesting.   So mostly Mereen is a bunch of weird hairstyles, off-putting societal structures, too many mentions of Tokars -- which is cool that Martin really colored in all the details of a world, but most of it was bizarre for the sake of it -- then there was Dany, mostly being impatient with ruling, pining for most of the book and then that chapter before she gets married just broke my patience with the entire thing.  It starts out with something about knowing they were safe while it was dark and dreading the daylight.   
 

I immediately thought, "Oh wow, what's attacking them in the day?  This sounds interesting!"  and instead it's just more of Martin's difficulty with figuring out the inner world of women.  So he has them obsessed with their children (Catelyn), obsessed with their looks and whether or not men want them (Cersei) obsessed with boys/romance/all things girly (Sansa first, now sadly Dany) and it isn't that his writing there is bad.  It's not bad writing, it's just a very limited scope for their characterizations.  Arya's really interesting,  Arianne (who suffered from at least a little "...and now the spoiled Princess girl enters, stage right") also turned out to be a very interesting character.   Brienne is also, although again, Martin could barely write three paragraphs without needing to remind everyone that Brienne? Is Ugly.  Asha is also very interesting and arguably the best drawn female character (in part because she has a fucking sense of humor a trait sorely missing from most of Martin's female characters)  but again, most of her thoughts relate to the men around her.  The nicest thing about the Endless Snow Arc, before poor whittled Theon is dropped off like the demented UPS package he has become, is that Asha is thinking about the men around her in a way that is almost entirely detached from gender.  They are the people around her, therefore those are the people she is interacting with and thinking about.  So sometimes he does so well and I'm really impressed by his efforts.  

 

It really isn't that he's bad at writing women, it's that if there was a Bechdel test for a woman's thought process, Martin would fail it most of the time.   I'm not trying to be unkind about it, because for real, I truly appreciate that the man is trying to bring fully fleshed women to the center of a genre that has been historically resistant to exactly that.  It's just when it's a very lengthy story, with a lot of details, like Mereen it can get a little repetitive.  

 

And I know it has just taken me far too long to clue into this aspect of this particular book, but I just keep waiting for the Mereen story to be over, vs. having a pointed interest in "Oh, who's the Harpy??"  It's more "Oh good grief, I'll be the Harpy if it means we can get this shit over with...."  

 

It's also sort of stunning to me that the story I find fascinating is the one in the North.  Stannis's, The Wall, I cannot abide a Bolton so the less of them the better, but Theon at Winterfell became fascinating.  

 

Plus almost everyone has heard the "You must kill your darlings" advice to writers, which so many people seem to take as "that means you need to kill characters!"  well sort of, because it means taking out words.  It's very difficult for writers to self-edit and Martin has proved that the darling he killed here is the concept of editing.  

 

This is actually a good story, but he really spun his wheels on Tyrion and Dany.   He didn't with Quentyn, I will give him that.  Mereen started to pick up when Selmy's thought process entered into the proceedings, which isn't even close to an accident.  Less throne fidgeting and boy obsessing, more "Okay, tell me what the hell is going on here?  Interesting.  I do not agree with your take on it, Selmy, but at least it got interesting at long, long last."  

 

It was important to see Hizzy through Selmy's eyes, because Dany mostly spent her time thinking about whether or not he was attractive.  I mean, that makes sense, there was a marriage offer to consider, and if that had stood alone it wouldn't have been so tedious.  Instead it stood with Dany obsessing over Daario Bieber and his technicolor take on steampunk.  

 

It's weird, because I actually really do like this book and wish to hell it had been given a solid editing to trim some of it down, because none of what I just mentioned would be so bad, or bad at all, if it hadn't been mentioned a half a dozen times.  

Edited February 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Here's the reader's digest version of what I just said:  In Mereen Martin spent too much effort creating a culture and forgetting that he needed to populate that with characters who could be interesting on their own.  Mereen suffers from being a collection of horrifying dietary habits, outfits and hairdos and little else.  It's like touring the dioramas of a societal and cultural anthropological museum, vs. meeting people. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

I will say that your remarks Shimpy have been brought up in fandom from the start, and not without reason: one can say that secondary characters in Meereen look like pieces of cardboard because that's how Dany sees them (the Shavepate becomes a truly dangerous man once seen through Barry), or that the real focus of the arc is on Dany's inner turmoils and so on... but while all of this may be true, it doesn't change the pacing problems and a certain repetitiveness (I noticed on this re-read for example that Barristan muses about how little he sleeps twice in two chapters in a row ^^').

 

It gets better on re-reads, I grant you; but I will add something more about this once at the end of Dance. If we don't get swarmed by a horde of tumblr feminists screaming for our heads XD

[WSmith84]

By the way shimpy, since you've read about Egg's children marrying for love, I thought that I would put up a bit more information about that. I'll spoiler tag it, since I don't know if you or others reading this intend to read The World of Ice and Fire (which is an in-world history book). Basically, it's just a bit of info on Egg's reign as King and his children's marriages.

 

Egg wanted to make reforms granting more protection and rights to the commoners of Westeros. Obviously, this was met with a fair bit of anger from the Lords of Westeros. However, with the help of his wife, Betha Blackwood, Egg arranged several good marriages for his children. This included the betrothal of his eldest son, Prince Duncan, to Lyonel Baratheon's daughter, as the Laughing Storm had been one of Egg's strongest supporters. His second son, Jaehaerys, was betrothed to Celia Tully, his youngest son, Daeron, to Olenna Redwyne (the Queen of Thorns) and his eldest daughter, Shaera, to Luthor Tyrell.

 

Prince Duncan fell in love with a commoner called Jenny of Oldstones and married her. Egg did all he could to undo the marriage, even demanding that Duncan choose between his bride and his throne. Duncan chose his bride and thus Egg disinherited him. Obviously, the Laughing Storm was left humiliated and angry by this. He rebelled against the Iron Throne, declaring himself Storm King and the Stormlands independent. A short, bloody rebellion ensued, which was ended when Dunk defeated Lord Baratheon in a duel. Lyonel Baratheon was forgiven, and Egg's youngest daughter was sent to Storm's End and betrothed to Lyonel's son. They would be Robert Baratheon's grandmother and grandfather.

 

Egg had decided, by studying the family tree of his family, that the Targaryen practice of incest would cause the downfall of his family and thus it was to be avoided. However, his son Jaehaerys and daughter Shaera had long expressed a desire for one another. Egg and Betha did their best to seperate them, but Jaehaerys and Shaera, noting how their father was forced to accept the marriage of Duncan and Jenny, evaded their guards and wed in secret. They also consumated the marriage, leaving Egg no choice but to accept it.

 

Daeron broke his betrothal to Olenna Redwyne when he was 18. He never married, instead spending most of his time with the knight Ser Jeremy Norridge, presumably because they were in love.

 

Egg obviously had to deal with the anger of these families. It meant the loss of support that he would have gotten for the reforms he wished to make, meaning that most of Egg's reforms never made it through and those that did were heavily watered-down. Poor Egg.

Edited February 12, 2016 by WSmith84

[nksarmi]

shimpy - I love you!  You express all the frustration I have with Dany's "I'm going to stay and learn how to rule" plot in addition to Quentyn's "oh let me go off and die" plot. It's been several years, but reading your comments are like remembering why I was in such a rage at the end of that book to begin with.  It's kind of cathartic.

[WindyNights]

Knowing what happens to Quentyn, I always get a kick out of his first paragraph:

"Adventure stank."She boasted sixty oars, a single sail, and a long lean hull that promised speed. Small, but she might serve, Quentyn thought when he saw her, but that was before he went aboard and got a good whiff of her. Pigs, was his first thought, but after a second sniff he changed his mind. Pigs had a cleaner smell. "This stink was piss and rotting meat and night-soil, this was the reek of corpse flesh and weeping sores and wounds gone bad", so strong that it overwhelmed the salt air and fish smell of the harbor.

Emphasis with quotation marks is mine. Edited February 12, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Thanks, nksarmi, I'm glad it's helping vent more than my spleen :-)  

 

Thank you, WSmith, I appreciate that information -- I did read it -- and that all adds interesting background.  It isn't as if Egg was wrong, but apparently it had some iffy end results!  

 

WindyNights, hehe, "Adventure Stank" ....words to live by folks, words to live by.  That and "ignore that prophecy, no one ever knows what they really mean" combined with "having a destiny is overrated"  and combine that with "sometimes staying home with a good book is the best move" and Quentin would have been safe as houses.  

 

You know, the worst part about that chapter, in which Martin takes not just a little bit of sadistic glee is that he goes out of his way to cover that Quentyn is, in fact, afraid of burning.   So right there, combined with "The dragons are loose" from the previous chapter, it was a case of "oh you're not really going to burn him ali....and he's burning alive. Ay yi yi." 

Edited February 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

Well shimpy, what few reforms Egg managed to push through were later undone during Aerys' reign. By Tywin Lannister. As if we needed more reasons to hate the guy.

[Terra Nova]

Not for Shimpy

uh-oh, she won't be happy upon reading of the three days of agony and the ghastly state Quent is ^^' Poor Shimpy!

[WindyNights]

@Terra That was a bit unbelievable to me and did kind of irritate me.(Not for Shimpy)

No way would Barristan not give him the gift of mercy.

[Terra Nova]

I am surprised (nfS)

that, charred as Quent was, he managed to even breath autonomously. Maybe it's an overkill on Martin's part. Barry could have just given him two liters of milk of the poppy or smothered him while he was consciousless

[polyhymnia]

 

7. Ned Stark decided to take go through the Mountains of the Moon, the Fingers and Sisterton to the North to call his banners. He supposedly hitches a ride from a fisherman's daughter who he impregnates.

 

What would be really hilarious to me is if Ned Stark actually DID have a child with the fisherman's daughter but that this child is someone that we never meet, i.e. NotJonSnow.

 

ETA:  Shimpy, I have a Great Dane. He is the kind who would probably let in a burglar if the burglar had bacon or hot dogs and we weren't there.  But, I think he'd react the same as your big dog if I was having a fight response in your situation.  Sorry to say that entire scenario made me laugh, mostly because of the dogs.

Edited February 12, 2016 by polyhymnia

[WindyNights]

But I do think there's a good narrative reason behind it. (Not for shimpy)

Drinkwater will relate how horrific Quentyn's suffering was and blame Daenerys for it breaking any chance of alliance between Daenerys and the Martells and turning them into enemies.

What would be really hilarious to me is if Ned Stark actually DID have a child with the fisherman's daughter but that this child is someone that we never meet, i.e. NotJonSnow.

ETA: Shimpy, I have a Great Dane. He is the kind who would probably let in a burglar if the burglar had bacon or hot dogs and we weren't there. But, I think he'd react the same as your big dog if I was having a fight response in your situation. Sorry to say that entire scenario made me laugh, mostly because of the dogs.

I would actually really like that. And for extra emphasis the fisherman's daughter is named Wylla. And he brings her and leaves her at Starfall.

[Terra Nova]

Oh, that is sure. And also

how she laughed in open court when Quent declared his identity. As Drink himself says in next Barry's chapter, "he did all to win her hand and the bitch laughed at him". And now her dragons roasted him. This will turn so hard against Dany, just like those rumors about her feeding people to her dragons, her killing Viserys so she could be Queen and later Drogo so she could be Khaleesi, and so on and so forth. So maybe his agony wasn't strictly necessary to drive home that point... I don't know. I feel bad for what Quent may have had the time to think about before dying, him having failed his father and Dorne and knowing he's going to never see his mother again :(

[Alayne Stone]

Well that is depressing as all hell. About Quentyn that is. :( 

 

Shimpy keeps putting off reading Jon's chapter but I'm anxious for her to read it because the circumstances are very different from the show. And I have a feeling she's going to have a major WHAT THE F moment when getting to the Pink Letter and I feel like we are going to have a looooot to talk about. And we'll have to do this without spoiling anything from the unreleased TWOW chapters too.

 

And then of course there's the lovely epilogue. I've been trying to be good in not saying anything like "I can't wait for you to read the epilogue." Because I don't want to give anything away.

[WindyNights]

I'm with you, Alayne.

It's also why I want shimpy to read TWOW chapters once she finishes the books rather than jumping to the other short stories/ TWOIAF.

Edited February 13, 2016 by WindyNights

[Haleth]

Don't you dare! :)

[ImpinAintEasy]

Not for Shimpy:

Well, the Theon sample chapter is purportedly chronologically before the Pink Letter and Jon's assassination. I'm on record as saying I believe the letter is legit. At the very least, I am convinced Ramsey sent the letter, not Mance or Stannis or someone else. He may have tortured Mance and the spearwives to get some info about Stannis(his magic sword/Melisandre/etc.), so it is possible he was lying about having killed him, though I don't know why.

[Alayne Stone]

There's two Theon chapters though, right? I'm aware that one of them happens chronologically before The Pink Letter. I'm of the mind that Ramsay wrote it and thinks everything he wrote is true, but that Manderly has turned on him at this point and feeding Ramsay everything Stannis has told him to. But I guess we won't know for sure until the book is released. But this is precisely why I hope Shimpy decides to read the preview chapters, so we can all discuss it.

 

At least The Princess and the Queen and The Rogue Prince are relatively short "stories" but yeah ... there's some preview chapters I would definitely love to discuss.

[WindyNights]

Not for Shimpy:

Well, the Theon sample chapter is purportedly chronologically before the Pink Letter and Jon's assassination. I'm on record as saying I believe the letter is legit. At the very least, I am convinced Ramsey sent the letter, not Mance or Stannis or someone else. He may have tortured Mance and the spearwives to get some info about Stannis(his magic sword/Melisandre/etc.), so it is possible he was lying about having killed him, though I don't know why.

(Not for shimpy) Ramsay

wrote it but Stannis is still alive. GRRM's confirmed that Stannis is alive in the books. And if he's supposed to burn Shireen like some speculate then he won't die for quite a while if he ever does die. Anyways most people believe that Stannis defeats the Freys using the ice lake and allies with Manderly to present his magic sword to Ramsay to fake the Boltons out and then using the Karstarks' clothing, he dresses up his men and opens to the gates of Winterfell for Stannis' troops.

[Mya Stone]

I have nothing to add to the spoiler tags except "Yup."

In other random "GoT has popped up in crazy places in my world" news I went to see Deadpool tonight (amazing) and I couldn't figure out how I knew the bad guy...so I Imbd'd him, and lo and behold - it was original Daario!

[Terra Nova]

Original Daario was much better than the recast: he was the perfect over-the-top douchebag, while last season Daario was just an ordinary pal. A pretty meek sellsword too, which I think is unforgivable.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

Shimpy, I have a Great Dane. He is the kind who would probably let in a burglar if the burglar had bacon or hot dogs and we weren't there.  But, I think he'd react the same as your big dog if I was having a fight response in your situation.  Sorry to say that entire scenario made me laugh, mostly because of the dogs.

 

That's perfectly all right and I told you guys because I thought it was funny.  I know that dogs have a sense of smell that is like a form of magic compared to ours  -- almost like time travel, where they can sniff a spot and tell what has happened there in terms of emotional qualities for weeks past -- cold scent tracking is more than "Oh Bob was here, I smell Bob"  and there are a complex number of smells we release that are attached to emotions.  So I'm sure Oscar was just responding to the "It's the Berserker Rage, Give Me Back My Land!" smell rooted in the genetic makeup of small Scottish people.  Maim thing that caused this smell."  

 

So I'm just imagining all the neighborhood dogs sniffing that one spot for the next two weeks and having some weird, snarling, hackle-raising fit, meanwhile some poor bewildered owner will wonder, "Rufus!! What has gotten into you!!" until my fit of pompom-hatted, capering rage has faded from the environment.

 

 

7. Ned Stark decided to take go through the Mountains of the Moon, the Fingers and Sisterton to the North to call his banners. He supposedly hitches a ride from a fisherman's daughter who he impregnates.

What would be really hilarious to me is if Ned Stark actually DID have a child with the fisherman's daughter but that this child is someone that we never meet, i.e. NotJonSnow.

 

Okay, I am not familiar with the "supposedly knocked up a fisherman's daughter thing and I have to admit, even the notion that that is allegedly what happened is amusing as hell.   Does anyone really believe that Jon Snow is Random Number 789521 in this story:  Fisherman's Daughter is both confounding and amusing.  Really?  Is there anyone who believes Ned Stark  boffed a woman from whom he'd hitched a ride?  Just some random stranger?  Oh yeah sure.  That happened.   Good grief, I'd find it hilarious if that actually was the case though.   

 

It would pretty much need to be a case of possession before that becomes a likely one though.  What's the theory on that?  He was mad with grief, because yeah....I can't find that one possible, let alone probable. 

 

Can I add that the rather pointed suggestion ("Would she ever have looked at Stark?"  "daughter was stillborn" ) stuff actually made me feel bad for Catelyn in fandom too?  It's just figuring out the "Oh no, he told the servants to never speak of Ashara Dayne again, so that Catelyn wouldn't find out they were talking about Brandon, not Ned?  He just took the fall for Brandon too?"  seemed like a knife-twisting detail in Cat's characterization, as much as anything else.  

 

On the one hand, I do sort of get it.  It wasn't just to protect her memory of Brandon, or whatever feelings she might have had about him.  It's that if Catelyn finds out that there's no way that Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother, then she really starts to question who the hell Jon's mother could be.  It's really too bad that part of what informed the necessity of not telling Cat was that Ned simply didn't know her well enough at the time they married to trust her with "Uh...so....this kid?  Yeah, he's my nephew and ...ho ho...ha ha....funny story, he's sort of also a Targ, so....that shouldn't go well for him, but hee hee, you won't even believe this one...he's also Lyanna's son and if Robert ever finds that out?  Well, because he actually loved Lyanna and is hothead without compare....funny right?" information. 

 

But I actually felt worse for the character of Cat, because Ned really ended up a freaking martyr to everyone else's ill-considered pants activity.  

 

The inclusion of "Moon Tea" and clearly having families who were far less concerned with virginity than others, that does open up the story possibilities and bonus for Martin, he gets to write about so-and-so getting busy with such-and-such without anyone needing to be a rapist or punishing the women of the story unduly for sex.  <---that one is actually a neat detail in terms of freeing women within the story to be less imprisoned by the fear of unwanted, life-ruining pregnancy.  

 

However, it has had the retroactive ripple of making Cat look like a really judgmental and unkind person for the way she'd react to illegitimate children.  I mean, if it's a world where even Lord's daughters can have some fun before marriage, if they just have the right tea bags, okay....and good.   Although the less "judgmental about sexuality and perceptions of purity" thing does explain why Cat never took any issue with Jeyne Westerling.  It does make Cat look like more of a jerk for how she reacted to people like Mya Stone within the story. 

 

Admittedly, the story did take a few pains to make it clear that Cat grew up in a family that was not down with the "screw who you want, just keep Lipton at hand!" stuff what with Hoster Tully's reaction to Lysa's situation and then outright stating that Jon Arryn had been less than thrilled with being stuck with some kind of fallen woman.   There's at least a little contradiction there.  But it's been present in other places too, Cat's reaction to Jon and even Ned's dismay, saying he wouldn't be able to go to Kings Landing because of his bastard status (when there are Rivers and Flowers and kind of long history of natural sons and daughters running around) don't really fit with other aspects of the story.  

 

Hey, random season five mention/

I can't even begin to tell you how thrilled I am that my very least favorite phrase from the show is clearly a Show invention?  That completely "What the fuck, where did that suddenly come from in this story?"  "Wardeness of the North" stuff from Littlefinger was just some daft show inclusiont o try and explain why the hell Sansa would ever, in a million years, consider marrying Ramsay of "We literally slaughtered your mother and brother" house Bolton.  So it's been ...nice?...to find out that it stuck out like such an awkward inclusion because...it was trying to cover a story switch.  

 

Anyway, moving on, but I hadn't ever seen the "Fisherman's daughter" speculation and find it hilarious. 

 

You know, to anyone who is a big Dany fan my ranting about the last few chapters probably was pretty tedious.  Sorry about that aspect.  It is tough though, because I do think that Mereen had a place in the narrative.  I know you guys have told me that Feast and Dance were originally just going to be one big book, vs. two big books.  I think the story told in the two books would have been more appropriately contained within one big one. 

 

By the same token, I know that it isn't just a writing Achilles' Heel for George R. R. Martin that he's spinning his wheels a bit and over-inflating the narrative.  A truly successful series is like the Golden Goose and it's hard to even contemplate killing it, wrapping it up.  So it isn't just ego, it's that it is incredibly rare for an author to actually have an ongoing, commercial success and it makes sense that it becomes very difficult to solely serve the story, rather than allowing the story to serve the writer.   

I was listening to a podcast, while walking my dogs, because that's kind of a big part of my life:  podcast, dog walking (some incidental rage capering) , and poo bags.  In it the guys running it were talking about the Gilmore Girls revival and brought up J K Rowling and how it seems like every time they've turned around in the last few weeks, there's been some news piece about how Rowling keeps moving the story goalposts, trying to expand that world, etc.  

 

Rowling had a different pressure on her when writing the series: she was trying to be true to the concept that if there was a child who had started reading the books as a kid, that they'd be able to finish the series still within their own childhood.  Those books also suffered from narrative bloat, but all of the "Actually, this character got together with this character...." "Actually, ________ (continuing to add world-building details) "  is actually sort of a good example of what can happen to an author in the wake of completing a successful series.   Since it's not overly likely to happen twice in a lifetime, it becomes the stuff that defines the author's work afterward too.  Rowling hasn't had a success outside of the Potter series and whereas she has so much money, she certainly doesn't need to write, she still wants to tell stories and have people interested in them. 

 

I get why Martin keeps expanding his world rather than wrapping up the tale.  He didn't have the pressure of his fan group inhabiting a certain age group, although I'm sure he's already taken crap about how people in his fandom have actually died waiting for the conclusion, it just isn't the same kind of pressure.  It's a weird thing, but I feel for everyone involved on that.  I think Martin is over-padding his narrative and the sad part is that it will have an impact on the legacy of the series's worth.  

 

But when I contrast him with someone like Larry McMurtry who....although the guy has had a number of successful series....apparently nothing pisses him off like being asked to write a direct sequel.  I gave my son the book Lonesome Dove a few years ago and he really enjoyed it.  I told him not to read the sequel, whatever he did, because he'd never regain his love for the original if he did.   Whereas he took it under advisement, he went ahead and read The Streets of Laredo and sure enough, it was like being punched in the nose for the sin of liking the original story.   McMurtry just did stuff that was damned near vicious to his fans. 

 

At least Martin doesn't appear to do that.  I think that part of why that is in my mind is that I so don't want to read this next Jon chapter, specifically because it feels like "Martin's about to McMurtry a bunch of fans"  ....This is so goofy, but I'm going to spoiler tag this because Lonesome Dove is still a really good story but in Streets of Laredo

the very first thing does is kill off the emotional heart of Lonesome Dove, Newt and whittle Call into a stump of a man, marry Lorena to the Pea Eye (wtf?) and just basically, anything that made you feel happy in Lonesome Dove, McMurtry picked up a shovel and hit his fans in the face with that by decimating the character landscape.  It was like an act of aggression that made Joss Whedon look like a marshmallow by comparison.

 He did the exact same kind of stuff from Terms of Endearment to The Evening Star.   If you had even one good feeling at the end of Terms of Endearment, McMurtry used exactly that to rip your heart out in the first three chapters of the sequel.  

 

But for all that Martin does stuff like build in characters who are decent: like Quentyn and Robb, almost entirely so that he can kill the shit out of them to illustrate that this is not some "good is rewarded" universe, and I know what's about to go down with Jon, I do have to say I really appreciate that he's already seeded the narrative with all the ways he's not really killing Jon Snow.  

 

It doesn't make me want to plunge into the chapter, but it's one instance where I'm so glad I was spoiled as to what was about to go down so that I could be looking for those clues beforehand.   So at least George R. R. Martin's careful with his structures and he's not without mercy.  Larry McMurtry though is one merciless mofo. 

Edited February 13, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

"I am not without mercy" thundered he who was notoriously without mercy.

Edited February 13, 2016 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

@shimpy I think Ned acting dismayed because Jon wouldn't be able to fit at KL because he's a bastard is a sham. It's more likely that he's dismayed about bringing Rhaegar and Lyanna's son to live close in KL right under King Robert Dragonspawn hating" Baratheon.

Like Ned did hide Jon from the royals during the feast at Winterfell after all. It could be that Jon might have some resemblance to Rhaegar that he wanted to avoid Robert clueing in on

Edited February 13, 2016 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

In other words:

(Bear with me, I'm so n00b I have a failure rate of 85% at embedding pics ^^')

Edited February 13, 2016 by Mya Stone
I'm here for you Terra! ;)

[Haleth]

Ha! Had Ashara's daughter lived Ned might have ended up bringing both babies (his nephew and niece) home. Try explaining that one to Cat. Um uh, twins! That's right! Can't you see the resemblance?

[stillshimpy]

You can just imagine the sit-down Ned had with Benjen at some point.  "Listen, I know you're 13 and all, but do you have any children littering the landscape that I need to know about?  Let me know, I need to know how many times I'm supposed to tell my wife I cheated on her.  Think carefully, any offspring that need rounded up?"  

[Haleth]

That's why he joined the NW.

And Ned let out a sigh of relief.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Haleth

[WindyNights]

Benjen is the one who fucked the fisherman's daughter not Ned and Rickard's mistress was Wylla before he died.

Are we even sure Cat's kids are Ned's? I mean think about it. They all look like Tullys sans Arya. What if Edmure and Cat were coupling? Dun dun dun.

No one is who they say are. The Starks are really Tullys and the Lannisters are really Targaryens.

Jon is a Targaryen, Daenerys is his sister and Aegon is a Blackfyre.

Daario is Euron who is Benjen.

Jaqen H'ghar is Syrio.

Mance is Abel who is Rattlebones.

Hodor is the Great Other.

Patchface is the Drowned God.

And we're all Moonboy for all we know.

&;&3!&/@'wisjfbjdbeieneiensnajaiwo

[Alayne Stone]

That certainly sounds like the story I've been reading. ;)

[Ashara Payne]

You forgot Benjen is Coldhands.

And Howland Reed is the High Sparrow.

[mac123x]

Okay, I am not familiar with the "supposedly knocked up a fisherman's daughter thing and I have to admit, even the notion that that is allegedly what happened is amusing as hell.

 

The Lord of Sisterton told Davos that story, Ned boinked the fisherman's daughter who smuggled him back to the North at the beginning of the rebellion. 

[Terra Nova]

And that the Elder Brother is Rhaegar, or that he's been hiding in Howland's moving castle all this time. Howland who may or may not be his son Jojen, suffering from an acute Benjamin Button's case.

 

(Thx Mya for fixing the picture ^^)

Edited February 14, 2016 by Terra Nova