Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Terra Nova]

Someone speculates it's poor Waymar Royce's sword, since it is mentioned that 'jewels glittered' in its hilt. At least even after death the lad is providing financial aid to the Watch ^^'

 

As for the horn... there are fan speculations - I totally agree with them - that say it is the small, plain, old horn that Ghost found with the cache of obsidan, and that Jon gave to Sam as a gift. He still has it in Oldtown :)

 

That mention of 'dead things in the woods, dead things in the water' is for me the creepiest thing in all five books, and everytime I re-read the letter I get my skin crawling D: 

[WSmith84]

You know, despite agreeing with most of Jon's choices as Lord Commander (though not always agreeing with how he goes about them) I am not sure about his decision to make Leathers Master-at-arms. I think it is good that he's giving a wildling-turned-crow an important position (as a good way to help eliminate prejudice is to have someone defy it with actions) but I'm not actually sure that Leathers is qualified. I know he's ferocious and a fierce warrior, but does he actually know things like how to hold a sword properly, how to perform certain moves, how to block those moves etc. He's almost certainly better than Thorne was (who, despite having all this knowledge, never actually imparted it to his students) but I'm not sure he's an adequate replacement for Iron Emmet. Why oh why did Jon have to send him and Edd away?

[WindyNights]

Dolorous Ed got such a fun little exchange that I'm now terrified he's a dead man, because he practically had a last supper vibe to him and whereas I know Martin does like to dwell on food, I even got all fixated on the symbolism of the egg and Easter and rebirth and ....

Okay this is funny you said that.

Mormon't Raven screaming "Corn and King and Snow, Jon Snow" is a reference to the Corn King legend which states:

Most narratives operate according to the basic structure whereby an initial state of well-being or at least equilibrium is upset and then, with difficulty, restored. So it is no surprise when we see this plot-skeleton in The Lion King. But the film has strong resonances of a more specific myth, that of the Corn King, brought to our attention a century ago by Sir James Frazer in his monumental work The Golden Bough. Deep in the race, Frazer explained, is the belief that the king carries within himself the life and fertility of the land he rules. As such he is a living god. He may be called upon to give his life in a time of famine so that his blood may fertilize the fields anew. (Other movies that make good use of this myth are The Wicker Man and Eye of the Devil.).........The Corn King myth underlies the practices of various primitive peoples and appears in mythology under the names of Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Baal, Tammuz, and Bran the Blessed. The wounding and healing (or the death and resurrection) of the god/king represents (and is believed actually to facilitate) the renewal of vegetation in the Spring after the death of plants in the winter.

Adding to your details, the Corn King is killed during the winter and reborn to usher in the spring.

Edited February 6, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

As for the horn... there are fan speculations - I totally agree with them - that say it is the small, plain, old horn that Ghost found with the cache of obsidan, and that Jon gave to Sam as a gift. He still has it in Oldtown :)

 

I'll bet they're right :-)  

 

Well this is frustrating, because things are FINALLY HAPPENING IN FUCKING HAPPENING IN MEREEN....and I have to go and do other things now. 

 

Boy, I liked Quentyn right up until he displayed the wits of a soft-boiled egg.  Steal a Dragon?  Oh Dude.  No way that's ending well for anyone.  There's a bumper sticker available at most metaphysical bookstores and renaissance faires that reads "Do Not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons, For Thou Art Crunchy and Go Well with Ketchup" Listen to Selmy, better Quentyn the Wise, than Quentyn the Crisp.  

 

He's not in the TV series.  It's not some giant mystery how this is likely to end.  

 

That's awesome, WindyNights!!  

 

By the way, in Barristan's chapter, I have to admit to being slightly fixated on the name drop of Prince Duncan.   Aegon named one of his sons after Dunk, didn't he?  That's adorable.  I like it when the story throws out the occasional "Things don't always suck inside out!" bone.  

Edited February 6, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

Btw shimpy, how do you feel about the direwolves now? You said in the beginning that you disliked their inclusion because you felt that they were just an emotion-manipulating tool; has that changed for you? The direwolves are given a lot more prominence in the books, and do feel (to me at least) more important and like they have a true purpose.

[Haleth]

About the missing horn, are we sure it isn't Euron's horn? I find it a bit, well, cheesy that there would be two magic horns floating around, even if they supposedly have different purposes.

[ambi76]

Aegon named one of his sons after Dunk, didn't he?  That's adorable.

 

It is. And his first born/son/heir even. It's especially cheesy adorable because there isn't a much more un-Targaryen sounding name than Duncan/Dunk. All the other four kids have very traditional Targaryen names though: Jaehaerys, Shaera, Daeron, Rhaelle.

Edited February 6, 2016 by ambi76

[WindyNights]

About the missing horn, are we sure it isn't Euron's horn? I find it a bit, well, cheesy that there would be two magic horns floating around, even if they supposedly have different purposes.

Extremely sure. I think it's sillier if there was only ever one magic horn around than multiple ones in this big world.

I believe the Celtigars also have a horn that can summon krakens.

[Terra Nova]

It works also the other way around: why there was also an apparently insignificant horn with the obsidian? And, since everything was wrapped in a 'new' black cloak, why would anyone (Benjen, presumably) feel the urge to leave it for someone else to be found? It screams Chekov's gun.

 

Besides, there's a nice 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade' vibe: the big, gilded horn with ancient runes is fake, the old battered unimpressive one is the real deal. Melisandre chose... poorly.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Avaleigh]

About the missing horn, are we sure it isn't Euron's horn? I find it a bit, well, cheesy that there would be two magic horns floating around, even if they supposedly have different purposes.

To me it makes sense that there are two horns. One is a horn for ice and one is a horn for fire. Euron's will help control a dragon or dragons and the one Sam has will bring down the Wall.

I feel like there would be a lack of balance with only one horn.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Haleth]

I would prefer no magic p̶l̶o̶t̶ ̶d̶e̶v̶i̶c̶e̶s̶  horns.

[WSmith84]

One thing that always worried me about the show was the reluctance to show the magical side of ASOIAF (although the scene where Bran and co. were attacked by skeletons and Leaf started throwing fireballs weaken that point slightly) because if, for example, a horn is sounded and the Wall falls, there's going to be almost no build-up and will seem very Deus Ex Machina. I think that the show-runners prefer the Game to the Song, which is fine if that's your preference, but the limited magic thus far does mean that all the magical stuff that will presumably be in the finale will seem a little... out of nowhere, I guess.

[WindyNights]

One thing that always worried me about the show was the reluctance to show the magical side of ASOIAF (although the scene where Bran and co. were attacked by skeletons and Leaf started throwing fireballs weaken that point slightly) because if, for example, a horn is sounded and the Wall falls, there's going to be almost no build-up and will seem very Deus Ex Machina. I think that the show-runners prefer the Game to the Song, which is fine if that's your preference, but the limited magic thus far does mean that all the magical stuff that will presumably be in the finale will seem a little... out of nowhere, I guess.

I mean they titled the show "Game of Thrones" and were happy if they just got the show to the Red Wedding clearly showing where their heads were at in concerns to what they loved about the series (the twists, shocks and betrayals).

And they love the Lannisters and Ramsay. Or rather they love their versions of Cersei, Tywin, Tyrion and Ramsay.

Edited February 6, 2016 by WindyNights

[Avaleigh]

I would prefer no magic p̶l̶o̶t̶ ̶d̶e̶v̶i̶c̶e̶s̶  horns.

Since magic is ultimately a large part of the series, I'd prefer for it to have a purpose as opposed to a bunch of build up for no pay off especially if it's inconsistent with we know of the world. Based on everything we've read so far, there's more to indicate that the horns are magical.

[Alayne Stone]

Yes, things are finally happening in Meereen, which makes you kind of wish the editor had gutted the first part of Meereen and moved the dragon riding scene of the book to the first third or so. It would have certainly made for a better read.

 

And of course Meereen ends on a cliffhanger. As does the battle of Winter. And given how many sample chapters have been released of those two plots alone for Winds it makes me think things will continue to drag during the first 1/3 of Winds.

 

It's hard to comment on her reactions to Jon Snow because on the one hand, Shimpy's right ... she knows what is coming. But on the other hand she is wrong, she does not know what is coming. Because the reasons the Watch betrayed Jon in the show are completely different from the book. And the Pink Letter leaves a lovely little cliffhanger for both Jon and Stannis. And of course nothing bad that we know of happens to Ghost. It's both funny and sad how the show's desire to meet some sort of outrageous death quota especially in the finale has left Shimpy so paranoid.

 

And there's many theories on those ravens that I never tire of happening. But I definitely think that is for sure Bloodraven in Mormont's raven. He's kept a close eye on all the key players for the end game, that's for sure. It's weird that he's this ... strangely powerful figure that is very much on the periph. He's been there all along ... but he hasn't.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[stillshimpy]

I tend to agree that Bloodraven is hanging out with Jon in Mormont's Raven.  That must have been sort of a fun gig on re-reads, to look at everything that Raven has said because the gnarled hand combined with Mormont's Raven pecking at his chest seems pretty convincing evidence to me.  Gnarled is a word so often associated with trees.  

 

Yes, things are finally happening in Meereen, which makes you kind of wish the editor had gutted the first part of Meereen and moved the dragon riding scene of the book to the first third or so. It would have certainly made for a better read.

 

 

A friggin' men to that, Alayne (yup, indeed, that feels weird as hell, probably won't ever do it again).  

 

Although in all fairness, I haven't felt like this story drags anywhere near as much as the last book.  Still, the Mereen story is very bloated.  

[WindyNights]

Meereen is actually the reason GRRM took so long to write the fifth book.

Like for example, he couldn't figure out in what order the people looking for Daenerys should arrive. And like in Quentyn's case he had trouble deciding whether he wanted Quentyn to arrive 100 days before Daenerys got married, the day before Daenerys gets married or just after Daenerys got married so he wrote chapters from all 3 perspectives and later chose which one made the most sense which happened to be the second one.

And then he wrote chapters where Tyrion was going to actually meet the Shrouded Lord but he couldn't get Tyrion back on track to Meereen after that so he made it a dream sequence but then he decided to split this dream sequence into pieces and little them throughout Tyrion's chapters but then he revised that again and decided not to use it and just reference the Shrouded Lord.

But he talks about it like he's pretty proud of it and might decide to release it as a short story which he never does.

Someday I will die, and I hope you're right and it's thirty years from now. When that happens, maybe my heirs will decide to publish a book of fragments and deleted chapters, and you'll all get to read about Tyrion's meeting with the Shrouded Lord. It's a swell, spooky, evocative chapter, but you won't read it in DANCE. It took me down a road I decided I did not want to travel, so I went back and ripped it out. So, unless I change my mind again, it's going the way of the draft of LORD OF THE RINGS where Tolkien has Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin reach the Prancing Pony and meet... a weatherbeaten old hobbit ranger named "Trotter."

Edited February 7, 2016 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

I really would be curious to see how you fared with a reread. I remember book 4 dragged for me as well and now I'm rereading it for the third time and I'm flying through it.

 

Nothing will make those Victarion chapters go any faster tough, nothing at all.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[WindyNights]

I really would be curious to see how you fared with a reread. I remember book 4 dragged for me as well and now I'm rereading it for the third time and I'm flying through it.

Nothing will make those Victarion chapters go any faster tough, nothing at all.

But he only has two chapters and one of them is half battle and half Euron talking about his plans.

I will say the same about Brienne's chapters though. Not all of them though just about half of them.

[Terra Nova]

Actually, on westeros.org they DID a re-read for Mormont's raven, gauging everything it said, throwing in the Corn King and all the rest :)

And when the wight attacks Mormont way back in AGoT, the raven does scream 'burn!burn!' on his own volition.

 

There are also other theories that he's hanging around in King's Landing in the old, black tomcat that lives in the Keep; the same cat Arya was following when she overheard Varys and Illyrio talking. The cat I think is safe to assume is no one else than Rhaenys's kitten at the time of her death. (no concluding evidence about this, but it would fit. He seems to favor old black pestering thingies).

 

ETA: I wrote Rhaenyra instead of Rhaenys ^^ at least the former had a real dragon and the chance to curse her killers before dying.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

Actually, on westeros.org they DID a re-read for Mormont's raven, gauging everything it said, throwing in the Corn King and all the rest :)

And when the wight attacks Mormont way back in AGoT, the raven does scream 'burn!burn!' on his own volition.

There are also other theories that he's hanging around in King's Landing in the old, black tomcat that lives in the Keep; the same cat Arya was following when she overheard Varys and Illyrio talking. The cat I think is safe to assume is no one else than Rhaenyra's kitten at the time of her death. (no concluding evidence about this, but it would fit. He seems to favor old black pestering thingies).

Kinda make the words some guy said that that black cat was the real king of the castle kind of interesting.

Although I always just assumed Rhaenys was a warg so when she died she attached herself to Balerion her cat. Which is why she's so antagonistic towards the Lannisters.

[Theongrey]

Hey, I just wanted to join this site to say that i've really enjoyed reading this thread, I actively search out threads/blogs like this for series I enjoy and i've read at least over seven of these type of things for ASOIAF but it never get's old for me to read someone else's perspective and I'm going to keep looking for more.

I wanted to ask you a few questions and comment on a few things (particularly on Theon in this book, your views on how show Theon compares to book Theon, and your thoughts on the Ironborn as well as your thought's on Sansa in the first book and the discussion on Cersei's character) but I should probably sleep now so I'll just ask whether you said anything more extensive about the final Theon chapter and I just missed it, or was that it?

Thanks.

[stillshimpy]

Btw shimpy, how do you feel about the direwolves now? You said in the beginning that you disliked their inclusion because you felt that they were just an emotion-manipulating tool; has that changed for you? The direwolves are given a lot more prominence in the books, and do feel (to me at least) more important and like they have a true purpose.

 

Sorry I missed this last night, WindyNights, eh....you know, I think they are mostly important for revealing the Warg characteristics of the Stark children.  I can say that I don't think Martin is using them purely as tools of emotional manipulation....but unfortunately it turns out he's used almost all the other animals in the story for precisely that reason.  Dragons and Direwolves excepted.  

 

I think it's fair to say that I was wrong about Martin's intent with the Direwolves, but my opinion is going to always be clouded by how much worse it is for every other animal in the books.  I mean, Jebus Cripes, the sole reason Smiler is included in the narrative is so that Theon can repeatedly revisit the moment when Ramsay set that horse on fire.   

 

I really don't want to be one of the humorless types and drone on about "our animal friends!" type of issues, because god knows that the human characters in this book don't have it easy.  I was cracking myself up when the Wildlings were coming through the gate and I was envisioning their GIANT TURKEYS pulling the carts.  There's a lot about Martin's writing I enjoy and some of his plot structure is really on-point.   I really, really don't like his use of animals.  I mean....really.   

 

Hi Theongrey, welcome aboard :-)  I'll be happy to answer your questions when I get back from walking my dogs (who are not turkeys).  

[WSmith84]

Thanks for the answer on the direwolves, shimpy. I do think that they'll play a greater part in the story, particularly Chekhov's direwolf (Nymeria) and her huge wolf pack.

 

Edit: I agree with you on Martin's use of animals in the story; it's not great.

Edited February 7, 2016 by WSmith84

[stillshimpy]

Oh my goodness, what is wrong with me?  I'm so sorry I pulled a name swap there, WSmith.   Words are Wind and apparently my brain is mush :-)  

 

More in a bit on the questions you referred to Theongrey,  the last I saw of Theon was when he leapt from the Wall and I had really been hoping that was the end of him, because it would have really made for a very nice complete arc.  He reclaims his real self, his real name and dies trying to undo some of the wrongs he's committed.   But I've since come to understand that there's at least one more chapter that has Theon in it in the this book, because I was going on so enthusiastically about the "Wow, that was perfect!  I loved the symmetry of that arc!  Well played!" and the person I was talking to actually did say "Ummm....err....uh....well, about that...." (in so many words) and  it was a case of "Oh...he's not dead then?"  "No."  

 

So I don't have any further thoughts on Theon's Winterfell chapter -- although we talked about it at length here -- at the moment.  

 

If there's anything specific about any of the chapters or characters you'd like to ask about, please feel free :)  

 

ET:

Chekhov's direwolf (Nymeria) and her huge wolf pack.

 

That's the one where I'm really intrigued to see what, if anything ever happens there.  Just as Theon essentially reclaimed his identity -- no matter how tattered and scarred -- at Winterfell when he began to take back his own name, I'm assuming that Arya's character trajectory will be similarly impacted at some point when she faces that which she cast off from herself:  Her essential Starkness.  It's a constant echo in her chapters that she is still Arya.  The names she chooses for her various House of Black and White personas really do give it away, she'll never fully be absorbed into the Faceless Men until such time as she confronts what she tried to drive away and stop being....and Nymeria is an essential part of that, I think.  I'm guessing. 

[WindyNights]

@shimpy Well this is what GRRM had to say about that:

"You know, I don't like to give things away." says Martin, a grin spreading across his face. "But you don't hang a giant wolf pack on the wall unless you intend to use it."

Edited February 7, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so Griff's/Jon Connington's chapter is behind me now also.  He's a really a very pitiable figure and it's incredibly sad how deeply in love he clearly was with Rhaegar.  I don't know if Rhaegar returned his feelings or not -- bisexuality already exists in this tale  so there's no reason to believe that Rhaegar's sexuality was more rigid than fluid.   It's a really nice note within the story.  He knows he's dying (although I worry that having Grey Scale/Grey Plague will actually be the thing the claims poor Faegon too and maybe all of their forces) , he just wants to avenge the man he loved and feels responsible for his death in the first place.   

 

It was distressing to read what Tywin Lannister would have done to find Robert Baratheon and I was hoping that it would occur to Jon Connginton that perhaps Rhaegar would not have supported that as an action either.  

 

Quentyn's mission to win Danaerys Targaryen's hand flopped and I really don't think that he's getting out of Mereen with a dragon.  Maybe Brown Benn will ransom him to his father, because that's about the best he can hope for out of the whole "help me steal a dragon"  "swell, just give me Pentos in return" plan.   Although something about Gerris Drinkwater reminds me Theon Greyjoy -- which I admit didn't happen until Selmy was taking his measure and noting his smile, etc.  It did make me wonder if Drinkwater poisoned the locusts, intending them for Hizzy (who I actually felt bad for Hizzy in that throne room scene). 

 

That only becomes important becomes Jon Connington was thinking about what it would take to win Doran Martell and it surprised me he wouldn't propose marrying Arianna to Aegon....when I remember that some families in the Kingdoms might actually not be super thrilled about marrying first cousins to one another.  

 

It was at least a little sad to read Connington's thoughts on Elia who....yes, yes, we get it....she was frail.  It has made me wonder why it would never occur to anyone pondering this that her poor children likely would be also.  So Griff/Aegon/Likely Faegon's robust health is actually a little suspect in and of itself. 

 

And....the next chapter is entitled the sacrifice and it's an Asha chapter?   Anyway chance that maybe they're planning on burning Umber or Karstark, having been informed of their treachery somehow?  

 

And I think I forgot to mention that the freakiest things about The Others/White Walkers was being told that they take the form of Mist?  How very the Legends of King Arthur, only super, super creepy.  

Edited February 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Alayne Stone]

I think the fact that we don't know for certain is what makes the Others come so creepy. Does the cold come with them or do the Others bring the cold?

 

When you're this far in the book it is really hard to say anything without unintentionally spoiling anything so I will just continue to sit here and say ... read on, sister. Read on.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[WindyNights]

@shimpy Jon Con's one of my favorite new PoVS in the last two books. Also I like that we finally have a gay POV character.

I don't think any of the Kingdoms have a thing against cousins marrying. At the least, the North and Westerlands have no problem with it.

Fun family fact: Jorah Mormont is Loras and Marge's uncle through marriage.

------------

I suppose Jon Con will hold out for Daenerys until they hear news that she got married and then died.

Edited February 8, 2016 by WindyNights

[Lady S.]

Yeah, I'm not sure either why you think cousin marriage wouldn't be cool in all of Westeros, especially since Arianne had sexual fantasies about her uncle Oberyn. So I don't think Dorne would be any more averse to cousin loving than the other regions. Aegon chose to go west without Dany but he wasn't giving up the idea of wedding her, Tyrion just made him believe he'd be better off proving himself as king first. If Dany is ever considered a truly lost cause, then his options would open up.

As for JonConn, his desperate love for Rhaegar feels pretty unrequited to me. He cherishes the memory of Rhaegar admiring his father's lands, but I'd think an actual love affair would produce more romantic moments than that.

Fun family fact: Jorah Mormont is Loras and Marge's uncle through marriage.

And the Redwyne twins are the Tyrells' cousins twice over, as Lord Redwyne is Olenna's nephew and he married one of Olenna and Luthor's daughters.

[WSmith84]

A huge fan of Jon Connington, JonCon's Red Beard, suggested that Jon Connington will become more and more like Tywin Lannister, culminating in him doing something truly dreadful to secure Aegon's throne (perhaps the death of Tommen). And with the greyscale slowly consuming him, he'll become a monster in truth; a monster on the outside from greyscale and a monster on the inside from his Tywinification.

[ambi76]

Yeah, I'm not sure either why you think cousin marriage wouldn't be cool in all of Westeros

 

In shimpy's defense the show kinda makes/made it seem that way with making all that ruckus about Lancel and Cersei's affair leading to her downfall. And I think Tyrion also at one point makes some nasty joke (in season 2) about the cousin-lovin of those two, which is especially hilarious since Joanna and Tywin were first cousins, you would think Tyrion would be aware of that fact.

 

It's actually pointed out in the GOT-wiki that this sometimes pseudo-dissing of cousin lovin on the show is dumb as fuck, considering the insane amounts of first cousin marriages amongst the nobles. Rickard and Lyarra (once removed), Mina and Paxter, the proposed marriage between Sansa and Robin, and yes, that's why I'm also not in the least fazed by Arianne having the hots for uncle Oberyn. It's only sibling lovin when Westeros gets a bit antsy, and even that is kinda stupid after 300 years of Targaryen rule, but that's just my opinion.

Edited February 8, 2016 by ambi76

[Haleth]

It's through Jon Con's eyes that we finally get a glimpse of Rhaegar that isn't all that flattering.  Even Jon remembers only a dashing romantic hero type, but we can also read the implication that Rhaegar was a user of those people who adored him.  So maybe his abduction of Lyanna wasn't done from love, but because he felt entitled to take her?  Definitely hinting that ol' Rae had a bit of the crazypants Targ genes, but Jon Con was too enraptured to see it.  And now Varys and Illyrio are using poor Jon's love of Rae and his strong sense of honor by handing him a kid and saying it's his beloved's son.  (Whether he is or not isn't relevant.  Jon believes it.)  Jon knows he's going to die horribly.  I think he will sacrifice himself in battle if it helps Aegon win the throne.

[Terra Nova]

Wow, that's harsh Haleth ^^

 

I was about to write how Rhaegar comment about Con's lands sounded just like some common courtesy - just like Quent talking about the Water Gardens and Dany being nice, all the while thinking 'this is so dumb' -, but it lacked malice, I think. It's harmful in the long run, just like in Dany's case, since now Quent, not without reason, thinks that her showing the dragons was to encourage him or to give him 'permission' to go ahead.

Whatever close friendship there was between them (I think Jon overblows that aspect too), in the end it brought Connington only a lifetime of misery and now an early death. Poor guy.

[mac123x]

Quentyn's mission to win Danaerys Targaryen's hand flopped and I really don't think that he's getting out of Mereen with a dragon.  Maybe Brown Benn will ransom him to his father, because that's about the best he can hope for out of the whole "help me steal a dragon"  "swell, just give me Pentos in return" plan.

 

The Tattered Prince wanting Pentos baffled me.  Is he intending to sack the city for simple revenge, or does he want to actually rule it?  A sell-sword company of 500 people doesn't seem like an adequate nor qualified group to take control of a city with a population >100k.  "You want Pentos?  Umm, yeah, sure, we'll help you do that after I learn to ride a dragon [snicker]". 

 

Kinda make the words some guy said that that black cat was the real king of the castle kind of interesting.

 

Youtube video theorist Alt-Shift-X has a bunch of vidoes explaining some of the fan theories, both plausible and implausible, that are kind of interesting.  He did a parodic video laying out the clues that point to Ser Pounce being the Prince that Was Promised, saying Tommen's three black kittens are children of Rhaenys's black cat and are therefore the three heads of the dragon.  It was a joke about how fans can get a bit carried away with metaphorical interpretations.

[stillshimpy]

Well the thing is, The Crown Prince is almost always going to be kind of an entitled jackass.  That's a theme that tends to be fairly easy to find throughout real history:  raising people with the "this whole land is YOURS and all the people in it look to YOU as closest to the GOD/GODS/SUPREME-BUTT-TO-BE-KISSED.    What I got out of the whole "and then the Prince played the harp, and nearly everyone, male, female, dog and cat" swooned was that ....yeah, Rhaegar seemed like he was awfully used to making everyone fall in love with him....and his position as the Crown Prince might not have ever had him questioning whether or not it was because he was the Crown Prince, or because he was just oh-so-lovable.   

 

The one thing I didn't like in the chapter was Jon Con's obvious resentment of and dismissal of Elia as a human being, but it's hard to blame him there either.  Sure, it was icky and he practically stated that the he wished she'd just kick it and get out of the way....he also very clearly blamed her being too sickly to give his beloved more children.   I mean, it's not like Jon came off as being all that damned lovable in that chapter, at least to me.  

 

It's just....he still loves someone who has been dead for years and years.   At no point does he think of any of the things that might indicate that he understood he stood no chance with Rhaegar.  He was besotted by Rhaegar, Rhaegar actually really seemed to be leaning into that "Oh what lovely lands....listen to my dulcet tones as I play the harp....here , let me stand a weebittooclose because I can tell you're a kid in love with me and fairly obviously, I really dig how much everyone is in love with me....pity there isn't some musical instrument nearby for me to strum and look meaningfully into your eyes...." 

 

And the reason I ended up wondering if maybe there as a chance that Rhaegar actually had both male and female lovers is it was all just so ...."I'm here to woo people...." ....because grabbing a fucking harp at dinner and singing for the assembled is a fairly obvious ploy.   So I was kind of hoping that poor Jon Connington was not just a less self-aware Brienne.  Smitten, but with no clue that the other party wasn't reading the same book, let alone on the same page. 

 

But mostly I got the feeling that Rhaegar just was used to pouring on the charm and that it had a romantic vibe to it was by design ("Oh my aching poet's soul....surely there is a harp nearby so that I can release the beauty of my heart for all to seeeeeeee.....here.....and hey, my wife can't even get busy, so it would be GREAT if someone wanted to take that on as a duty tonight....") 

 

It's actually how well it was known that Elia was not well that has kind of made me convinced that Rhaegar was an even bigger jackass than I thought he was.  Keep your affairs discreet, dude.   Being so sickly as to have everyone thinking you're going to kick it should a good chill take hold would be bad enough, deciding that you so desperately need to fuck someone else publicly that it leads to a rebellion is another.  Let the poor woman die her early death without any publicly humiliating scandals.   

 

So Jon Connington was pitiable in that, but Rhaegar usually teeters in the  Land of Gross.  I'd actually like him MORE if he was purposefully flirting with Jon. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by stillshimpy

[ambi76]

JonCon is just a really weird character to me so far, I dunno.

 

And his love for Rhaegar is really cheesy.

 

Says the Loras fangirl, I know, I know (may be better that one never got a POV to wax poetics about his "deer prince" Renly).

Edited February 8, 2016 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

What the fuck is even going on now?!?  

 

Okay, so first we have the sad, but understandable reenactment of The Donner Party: Westerosi style and then....the Stork Banker in Shriner's hat drops off Theon?  Oh for gods sake.  

[Terra Nova]

And Clayton Suggs is a pig, but a brave one ^^

 

And the Westerosi equivalent of Barad-dur is looming over the crofters' village. Feel the powah of Rahloo.

 

And Tristifer in two chapters went from whipped cur to bearded badass ^^

 

And some poor poor Karstark is about to have the time of his life... not.

 

(still a better reunion scene than the 'who let the dogs out?!' shtick)

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I picked up on the fact that since there are men of The Wall with the Stork-like Braavosi banker, at least the jig is fucking up for the Karfuckers -- which....good.  

 

I liked that Asha was able to appreciate that even though Suggs is disgusting, at least he's a loyal and brave disgusting pig of a man and I thought it was interesting that he was trying to send Asha to warn the King, which was also a weirdly telling thing to do.  At least he apparently trusts her.  

 

I've now read Victarion's chapter and how he's apparently got the Dragon claiming horn, that is death to blow (Euron sure does suck, even more than most of the Iron Islanders) and that it is another case of "Fire...blah blah....Blood....blah blah....Have to win the horn with blood."   Whatever, I hope that poor woman who had her tongue cut out feeds Victarion to a dragon, smothers him in his sleep, kills him by bludgeoning him to death with ....oh anything really.  The weight of his own abysmal jackassery comes to mind, but pretty much I'll take anything.  Wile E. Coyte handing him an Anvil and ushering him off a cliff.  A shipment of Acme explosives.  

Just DIE or at least stop having chapters.  Good god. 

[WindyNights]

I can't take Victarion seriously so he ends up being entertaining rather than revolting for me.

Like when he frees the slaves and makes them his thralls and likens himself to Daenerys, a breaker of chains.

Or when he burns several virgins and thinks "On wings of song I fly to you, Daenerys"

Or how his whole plan is to walk into Meereen, punch Daenerys' husband to death and marry her like it's the easiest thing in the world.

Edited February 8, 2016 by WindyNights

[vibeology]

I land on the revolting side with Victarion. I have done my very best to block out all the details of his story, so I won't say much now but I just find him the most annoying and offensive of all the characters in all of the books. There is no character I would rather spend time with less and every sentence was painful. I read his story when I first read the books and gave it one more try when I realized that people out there loved his POVs to see what I was missing, but I skip it now because I feel about Victarion the way Shimpy does about turkey flogging.

[Haleth]

I think Vic is Wile E Coyote. With such devious plots what could possibly go wrong? He has such a distorted view of his own intellectual superiority, he can't see how absurd his ideas are. Yup. Gonna claim Dany for himself. That'll show Euron and everyone else.

[WindyNights]

It'a not really that he thinks he's intellectually superior to people so much as that he's just really confident that Lady Luck has blessed him and everything will go his way. Problems and obstacles are blips on the radar for him like Dany's marriage to Hizdahr and Dany's disappearance from the city.

But if Daenerys really is fated marry a Greyjoy pls let it be Vic and not Euron.

Edited February 8, 2016 by WindyNights

[mac123x]

Victarion is steeped in Ironborn culture.  His entire perspective is based on it, so I’m looking forward to when his world-view run smack into reality. 

 

I’m also convinced that Moqorro is just using him.  The black priest bowed his head. "There is no need. The Lord of Light has shown me your worth, lord Captain. Every night in my fires I glimpse the glory that awaits you."  That sounds suspiciously like “I’m omitting something,” probably the bit where Vic will die achieving that glory.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so I also read Arya's Ugly Girl chapter and can't for the life of me figure out who she killed.  I mean, obviously she killed someone who insures ships but the description of the guy did actually ring any bells.  I take it she dipped a coin in the water, knowing he would bite down on it and that would kill him?  

 

Pretty good plan, but I feel like I should know who that was and I just don't.  

 

It was also sort of fun to read someone refer to Arya as pretty "A face as pretty as your own"  , I figured that since Lyanna Stark is supposed to have been a woman pretty enough to have caught the eye of the crown Prince that she likely grew up to be very lovely, which is sort of fun.   In the first book, poor Arya actually does care that she isn't pretty in the same way that Sansa is.  

 

It was actually quite horrifying that apparently they cut her face either off, or enough to have the Ugly Girl's face adhere to her own ....and that it came with the memories of the poor girl.  That should frighten the crap out of anyone who ends up having to put on Arya Stark's face at any point.

 

I’m also convinced that Moqorro is just using him.  The black priest bowed his head. "There is no need. The Lord of Light has shown me your worth, lord Captain. Every night in my fires I glimpse the glory that awaits you."  That sounds suspiciously like “I’m omitting something,” probably the bit where Vic will die achieving that glory.

 

Yeah, I caught that too and figured that meant the Victarion was in for a spot of roasting himself.  

Edited February 8, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

@shimpy Don't worry, I don't think the insurance guy was anyone we were supposed to know.

Edited February 8, 2016 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

Shimpy, the significance is not in the "who" Arya killed, but "how" she did it. This is something the show completely skimped on because season 5 spoilers:

The "kindly" man simply gives her the poison and tells her how to kill the insurance man (which she doesn't even do).

Here we actually see Arya using her skills: relying on her other senses, listening with her ears, and figuring out quite cleverly that the best way to kill this man will be to poison a coin knowing that he tastes every single one in order to verify their authenticity.

 

She's actually putting all the skills and knowledge the Faceless Men have been trying to train her to good use.

 

You guys read Rhaegar very differently than I do. I see him being more melancholy and mopey than deliberately trying to manipulate others around him. But of course ... we still don't have very much of him to go on to get that solid of a picture. People tend to exaggerate things about the people they idolize.

[WSmith84]

Yeah, I don't think the insurance guy is someone we're supposed to know. Admittedly, I don't always pay attention to characters' physical descriptions, but his didn't set off any alarm bells for me.

[jellyroll2]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the who she killed wasn't as important as the how she killed.