Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Haleth]

The thing that pissed me off is that by omitting UnCat the show is basically telling us her whole storyline is irrelevant.  So why should I care about anything she does in the books?  

(Same for Aegon.)

 I could just skip those chapters.  Thanks for spoiling it, show.

 

I definitely would like to hear shimpy's take on Tyrion/Tywin/Jaime (and the whole Tysha thing) and on Stannis offering Jon legitimacy, Winterfell, and a Wildling princess wife.

 

Are we doing Feast next?  Or Dunk and Egg?  I'd prefer Feast and the next big wtf moment of

Mance not being burned.

[Delta1212]

I'm anxious to get to stuff from the next two books as well, but if there's a natural break point for Dunk and Egg, this is it.

[Reader of Books]

If there are three, then either Tyrion is definitely Aerys's child, or Aegon is real. I'm not entirely sure which I would prefer to be true.

 

On that 

I don't think Aegon will be a rider, but I think if he is a Blackfyre, then it is possible and GRRM does have that option open.

 

The thing that pissed me off is that by omitting UnCat the show is basically telling us her whole storyline is irrelevant.

 

 Thanks for spoiling it, show.

 

I used to be concerned about that, but I have just come to terms with the show telling some other story I can barely recognise now. Tysha and Strong Belwas aren't irrelevant because they aren't in the show. Some of the living book characters aren't irrelevant because the show killed them off - something that has been happening from Season 2.

[Delta1212]

On that

I don't think Aegon will be a rider, but I think if he is a Blackfyre, then it is possible and GRRM does have that option open.

I used to be concerned about that, but I have just come to terms with the show telling some other story I can barely recognise now. Tysha and Strong Belwas aren't irrelevant because they aren't in the show. Some of the living book characters aren't irrelevant because the show killed them off - something that has been happening from Season 2.

I actually take back what I said about

Tyrion. The prince was prophecied to come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Dany and Jon both fit that description, as would Aegon if he is actually Aegon. A Blackfyre imposter definitely wouldn't and even a bastard Tyrion would only come from Aerys and not the line of the two of them together. The other alternative, of course, is that The Prince Who Was Promised and Azor Ahai Reborn are two different people with Dany being the Prince and Jon being Azor Ahai, but the signs are two mixed between them for me to be totally happy about that solution right now. Unless it's just a case of Mel continuing to bat a thousand on being wrong.

[nksarmi]

See, I never really saw Tywin's death as a triumphant moment. Not something I'd cheer for. That wasn't, in either version, Tyrion finally beating his father. That was Tyrion giving up. He surrendering in the face of having spent his whole life trying and trying in the face of one disappointment or thwarted desire after another and in killing Tywin he was giving up on that life, on that long sought after affection, and he was burning it all down on the way out.

Which can be an act of catharsis, except I don't think it was really a freeing act for Tyrion because he's not really moving on to anything. He's just admitted that he's never going to get any of the things he's always wanted out of life and so screw it.

 

At the end of book three, I saw it as a victory. Possibly on the back on the horrible reveal that Tisha was just a normal girl who seemed to like Tyrion.  I know what Tywin did to that girl and Tyrion was bad even if she was a prostitute - but if she wasn't - oh holy hell!  The worst crime that could be recorded for her was that maybe she liked that Tyrion was a highborn Lannister as much as she liked him.  She did NOT deserve what Tywin did to her.  That kind of takes him out of the lawful evil category and puts him in straight up black hat to me.

 

And that moment shaped Tyrion's whole freaking life.  Until then, he was the sweet boy who had a good relationship with Jamie and a sharp mind and who was enchanted with books and learning, history, and even dragons!  I think what Tywin did to him with Tisha was the moment that convinced him that no woman could ever love him - ever.  It jaded him and colored every aspect of his personality thereafter. 

 

So on the back of that, Tyrion killing Tywin felt like victory. 

 

Book spoiler:

Of course, book five changed that impression, but there was a moment where I cheered!

Edited October 31, 2015 by nksarmi

[Protar]

I don't think something being omitted from the show indicates that it won't be important in the books. Yes D+D know what's going to happen in future books. But so does GRRM. If he spends time on something then I'm going to assume its for a good reason because he's yet to let me down yet on that front. 

[nksarmi]

I don't think something being omitted from the show indicates that it won't be important in the books. Yes D+D know what's going to happen in future books. But so does GRRM. If he spends time on something then I'm going to assume its for a good reason because he's yet to let me down yet on that front. 

I used to think if D&D tossed something it might not be THAT important to the final story, but then season five happened and now I just have to agree with those who have concluded that we are seeing a different story.

 

Because - book and season five spoilers ahead -

Sansa's story in the Vale might bore me but I'm can't believe that GRRM doesn't have some kind of purpose for it. And while I was a little pissed that he introduced me to Quentin just to kill him off, that's just one character. That doesn't mean that I think Jon C and Ageon don't matter. In fact, unless something happens, they are about to start a war so they MUST matter. Furthermore, the show took us so far off course with Jamie and Dorne that it's hard to believe that could be done without a negative ripple effect in the story. While I think GRRM gets a little off track at times, I don't think he's THAT disjointed in his writing.

 

So while it used to be fun to try to look at the show for clues about what GRRM is going to do - I'm not sure we can do that anymore.

[Protar]

I used to think if D&D tossed something it might not be THAT important to the final story, but then season five happened and now I just have to agree with those who have concluded that we are seeing a different story.

 

Because - book and season five spoilers ahead -

Sansa's story in the Vale might bore me but I'm can't believe that GRRM doesn't have some kind of purpose for it. And while I was a little pissed that he introduced me to Quentin just to kill him off, that's just one character. That doesn't mean that I think Jon C and Ageon don't matter. In fact, unless something happens, they are about to start a war so they MUST matter. Furthermore, the show took us so far off course with Jamie and Dorne that it's hard to believe that could be done without a negative ripple effect in the story. While I think GRRM gets a little off track at times, I don't think he's THAT disjointed in his writing.

 

So while it used to be fun to try to look at the show for clues about what GRRM is going to do - I'm not sure we can do that anymore.

 

Even Quentyn served his purpose. You can't have Arianne without Quentyn, because thinking that he's going to steal away her birthright is pivotal to her character development. And my Arianne is important I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

[stillshimpy]

Well from my perspective, that revelation was equal parts hilarity and near concussion levels of "What? What just happened??? What is going on?

 

The hilarious part, for me, was that I got home from a full day out in the world -- including having battled the epic lines of a Friday afternoon at Costco's checkout (learn from me, folks, Friday afternoon at Costco is like Christmas Eve at the shopping mall, every.stinking.week) -- and had a message from Mya that basically said, "I'm begging you to finish the book today" which I didn't think I possibly could, but then she told me "There are eight chapters left (yes I counted)" which sort of clued me in "Oh, okay, something big is about to go down."  

 

And so I did stuff like read while eating dinner, hoping that I'd at least be able to finish before my husband got home...which for the record, my husband doesn't keep in some book-free zone or something "Hi honey, I'm home! Surrender your reading materials and go to your shack of illiteracy.  No good ever came from teaching women to read, I say!"  We just sort of actually like one another, so at night, I tend to hang out with him. 

 

I thought for sure I'd reached the  "Oh, that must be the big thing!" when -- kind of very importantly -- when Tyrion and Jaime part with what amounts to a "See you in hell after vengeance is mine!"  Because season five material

it's actually a big problem that the show has in trying to define Tyrion's motivation for joining up with Dany, or her accepting him.  Even after killing Tywin, there's no reason for Tyrion to hate Jaime and his niece and nephew. So it kind of makes it a strange, off note that the entire season is trying to get Tyrion to Dany...and in the story....there's slim temptation on either part for that to be possible, within the story as it stands in the series.  He's a Lannister and yes, he hates his (dead) father and sister, but there are more Lannisters than that

 

Changing the whole Love Story of Tyrion's life to "He loved Shae and she horribly betrayed him, so Tyrion kills Shae and his father and the story continues thusly"  from "Tyrion is given significant reason to truly hate every member of his family as he departs from Kings Landing.  He's spent his entire adult life thinking that he could never truly be loved by anyone, and his family keeps putting him in circumstances where this will continue to be true, but it was a lie:  the young woman he married did love him, and then worse still, the deception of it all caused Tyrion to participate in degrading her."  

 

I mean, that's a gigantic character note to just freaking skip.  HUGE.  "Hi, my family shaped my entire adult life with a lie and the one person I thought cared about me and loved me participated in it."   There's a big difference in those two character trajectories.  A really, really big difference.  Show Tyrion had the only real love he'd ever known in the form of Shae, viciously turn on him because she felt betrayed by him" which to be kind of clear on something, he absolutely did betray her.  He had told her loved her and then he used the one thing he thought of as her biggest fear to get her to leave.   All because he was too selfish to send her away when he should have and too selfish to leave with her when she asked him too.  

 

When the story was changed to "Shae truly loves Tyrion, but it angers  her that he has to marry and she hates that she can only be considered his sex worker, they will never have emotional equity" and then she betrays him at the trial and he finds her in Tywin's bed:  Tyrion has given Shae reason to hate him.  They achieved the worst kind of emotional equity:  They both betrayed a mutual love and he kills her for that.  Did he have to kill her?  Absolutely, she was screaming for the guard.  

 

It just still hugely significant that the Show switches the emotional impact in Show Verse it is Shae who is in Book Tyrion's emotional shoes.  She thought she was truly loved and then a lie -- supposedly told to protect her and told far too late for it to work -- but they break each other's hearts rather deliberately and cruelly on both sides.  

 

So Show Tyrion comes off as almost unbearably self-pitying in all of that, because I didn't feel sorry for him when he sat on the floor saying, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry" after murdering Shae -- no matter how necessary -- it was more "dude, what in the world did you expect? She tried to be your lover and would have died in the course of it, but in a last ditch attempt to save her, you used her greatest fear against her....and so she became the thing you made her believe she was:  Just your paid companion, no loyalty, no love, no honor."  

 

Book Tyrion?  Oh my god, that's a different story entirely and it completely changes his motivations and the way to process them.  It finally becomes important that Tyrion would not rape Sansa.  Like I've said, I don't hand out hero points for being a good enough dude to not rape your terrified, forced into marriage, child-bride" and that's before considering the "and your family murdered pretty much all of her family" of it all.  However, it's important to Tyrion to view himself as the kind of man who will not stoop to that.  He actually does desperately want Sansa to fall in love with him.  He has feelings for Shae, but he's not really fooled into believing she loves him:  He believes himself to be essentially unlovable. 

 

To then find out: No, you were loved.  You had a wife.  At a very young age you found the person who did love you for more than your name.  Then members of your family, including the only one you trusted and thought cared about you, lied to you to make you feel unloveable and in doing so not only shaped your entire life: Surprise! You raped the one woman who did love you.  

 

That's an epic level of betrayal because it doesn't just emotionally maim the man, it takes away the one part of his self-image that has some importance to him:  He would not stoop to raping a woman, in a world where consent was barely even considered an issue, he was the man who actually gave a crap about Sansa's consent.  Jaime didn't just hand him a historical: Oh, hey, sorry for that life-changing, soul-curdling, heart-crushing I participated in.  I thought it wouldn't matter and was for your own good."  Nope, it retroactively changes an aspect of his self-image.  

 

That was a stupid, stupid thing to do in terms of storytelling.   It take Show Tyrion's arc from "Damn, I get that you have it hard, but you're terribly self-pitying about the entire deal and childish as hell to boot about it in the aftermath"  season five

when Tyrion insists on going to a brothel, and does everything short of screaming "I'm a Lion, Hear me Roar!"  infuriated me.

 

Whereas Book Tyrion?  That's an entirely different kettle of Character Motivation.   Yeah, you'd go all "I will burn your cities to the ground and dance on the ashes of your dead and I will do it yelling our family's motto, consider this debt PAID IN FULL when none of you are left standing." 

 

And I still can't wrap my head around not including Dead Cat.  As for the notion that they didn't want an actor of Michelle Fairley's quality standing around, unable to speak...for goodness sake....tone down the dead, dead, deadikins look of her (because that would take HOURS to pull off) and instead just do ghoulish makeup with the occasional reveal of a terrible open wound on her throat that she normally keeps concealed.  They didn't need to have her be that putrid looking and as for the "She can't talk, but she remembers" ....either cheat on that where she has very limited voice capabilities or go with the "can't speak" and leave her features intact.  That's a wonderful challenged for an actor of that caliber.  How the hell they decided to kid themselves into thinking it wouldn't be an amazing thing to have going on, I don't know.  

 

Because in the show, Bran tells the Rat King story.  So they include that....and nothing comes of it.  NOTHING.  It's so disheartening.  It's so bleak.  Every hideous, heinous thing that happens goes unanswered and the most rotten cream always rises to the top of this particular tale.  

 

I don't understand having an army of the dead being key to the entire series arc and then balking at showing other magical elements.  Just infuriating.  

 

 

Plus, guys, you want to know how long I personally lasted keeping that Dead Cat Walking secret?  Well, in fairness to me, when my husband got home, I was wild-eyed and weird, typing like crazy and barely saying anything other than "Wait, be there in a bit, have to do this first....can't wait....hope you had fun...I am....there's a....thing here....holy shit" so to say he sort of knew something was up would be seriously understating that one.  

 

But truly, after I finished posting here I walked out, grabbed a glass of wine and it took me.....98 seconds, at least, to say "So, how likely are you to ever read the books?"  (he's not, he is a reader, but that's just a giant chunk of time for him to carve out when he lives with "you could give me the cliff notes McGee over here" ) and I did ask if it would be okay if I told him something.  Which....if he'd said no, I wouldn't have told him, but I was being about as subtle as a three-year-old doing the pee-pee dance in terms of the "I have to let something out of me!!!" of it all. 

 

Okay, so replies are coming in here.  I tend to post and then edit typos.  Sorry guys, it's just a function of my visual processing that I don't catch typos until after I see them on a slightly different background. 

 

Edited:  By the way, hi Seerow :=) and sorry for the sleep deprivation (again, some more) Which Tyler.  

 

I can, and do completely understand about the "You know, it actually gets irritating as hell to watch show-Only or Unsullied people talk about people who have read the books as if we are the evil, Spoiler Horde, when you lot wouldn't even begin to believe the shit that we are sitting on over here, all the time and your way of thanking us is not exactly gracious, you know?" 

 

But I do know.  Even if I didn't have any clue prior to last night how big that big shit might be, I've always still communicated with people who read the books and trusted them not to forcibly spoil me....and that's not just the "Yeah, good luck with that, Mom." of trusting my son not to spoil me...I mean, throughout the years I've answered PMs from readers and trusted that you guys just weren't out to get me, except for a very few individuals. 

 

I also never gave even one thought to the concept that Bookwalker would sound horrible to you guys, because the White Walkers had barely been in the tale, so it just didn't occur to me. 

 

But anyway, I did just want to say thank you, again, because whereas I have always known "Yeah, you know, I have too many friends among the readers to believe that you all were just out to pee on our cornflakes"....I really didn't even begin to grasp the amount of stuff you guys just sat on until fucking Dead Cat made the scene.  

 

ETA2:  and I did take the time to highlight passages of interest in my headlong reader dash last night, so there are other things I noted and wanted to talk about, I just got gigantically distracted for obvious reasons.   

Edited October 31, 2015 by stillshimpy

[bobbybuilderton]

It's pretty apparent they have their heads so far up Tyrion's ass they can't be bothered to tell a complex story about him. 

 

"I am the gift." Don't make me vomit

Edited October 31, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[Delta1212]

Oh my sweet summer child, what do you know about spoilers? Spoilers are for

"Fire and Blood"

when the

plots Doran weaves are revealed to be

a hundred feet deep. Spoilers are for the

coming of Aegon and for the Wedding at Winterfell

when

Wyman serves up lampfrey pie

and

Mance and the spear wives pull a Bael the Bard by planning to sneak into Winterfell and steal Arya away,

all in darkness.

That is the time for spoilers.

(No, those aren't safe for shimpy to click)

[Eegah]

In the commentary for the Season 4 finale, the director makes this really weird comment about how "everyone knows" what really went down with Tysha, so they decided not to waste time spelling it out, which just sounds like they've decided to completely leave the Unsullied in the lurch as we're now supposed to just understand the backstory from the books when it comes up again without being properly set up in the show.

[bobbybuilderton]

Oh my sweet summer child, what do you know about spoilers? Spoilers are for

"Fire and Blood"

when the

plots Doran weaves are revealed to be

a hundred feet deep. Spoilers are for the

coming of Aegon and for the Wedding at Winterfell

when

Wyman serves up lampfrey pie

and

Mance and the spear wives pull a Bael the Bard by planning to sneak into Winterfell and steal Arya away,

all in darkness.

That is the time for spoilers.

(No, those aren't safe for shimpy to click)

Oh and let's not forget

"the north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done."

oh oh oh and

Ellaria not being bloodthirsty maniac

and

dragonbinding horn

ETA: oh and

the valonqar

and

death cult assassins making more sense

 and

varys deciding kevan was undoing too much of Cersei's work

Edited October 31, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[ambi76]

Yeah, that whole anticlimatic Tyrion/Jaime hugging it out without repercussions thing on the show really pissed me off, but what actually made me stop watching was show!Shae pulling a knife on Tyrion (seriously?) and I mean I actually didn't watch the end of that epsiode, although I was looking forward to Tywin getting hit on the loo. (In retrospect I should have stuck to stopping right there.)

 

I don't miss ZombiCat on the show quite as much as most people, but I also thought that epilogue would make for a fantastic cinematic showing and was really puzzled by its omission mostly for that reason. But yeah, happy Halloween indeed. :-)

 

Edited October 31, 2015 by ambi76

[Protar]

Oh and let's not forget

"the north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done."

oh oh oh and

Ellaria not being bloodthirsty maniac

and

dragonbinding horn

ETA: oh and

the valonqar

and

death cult assassins making more sense

 and

varys deciding kevan was undoing too much of Cersei's work

 

And Tyrion being a cyborg the whole time? It's such a shocker but when you look back you can't imagine the plot going any other way. Can't believe the show got rid of that!

[stillshimpy]

In the commentary for the Season 4 finale, the director makes this really weird comment about how "everyone knows" what really went down with Tysha

 

Dude, not only did I not know, I didn't even suspect.  I know there was a mention about Jaime feeling guilty once before, but it was incredibly vague and I didn't attach it to "Tysha wasn't really a prostitute"  I attached it to "He felt bad about tricking Tyrion by hiring a prostitute, because he felt sorry for him."  

 

 

 

No, those aren't safe for shimpy to click)

 

For the record, the only time I click on those is when there is a description beforehand that sounds like, "Okay, it's safe for me to read that."  Like "speculation based on season _ " or "In an interview, the actor said _ " but mostly I just leave those bars alone.   

 

Okay, so I need to actually try and cover some of the other stuff that caught my attention before my mind was well and truly blown.  Guys, I feel so cheated by the show and they really aren't doing the story any favors.   A friend in real life asked me about watching the show, asking if I thought she'd like it and I told her, "Well, it depends.  It's not a story where anything good ever happens to anyone.  Pretty much....ever."   I mean, unless you're Dany, or evil, the Show is "There's Another Football for You to Kick, Charlie Brown" when it comes to liking anyone.  They even made Oberyn more likable on the show in order to better sucker punch people. 

 

There's room between "A tale of goodness and sweetness, where honor triumphs and evil loses, always" morality tales -- for instance, my husband described a movie he remembered watching as a teenager, it's Disneyesque flick in which a village must sacrifice the virginal daughter of some bigwig in town to a dragon....and the entire movie is about this band of good and honorable people, trying to keep her from her dire "has to be a virgin sacrifice" fate....and it cracked my husband up, because every person over the age of 10 would just sort of sit there all ....".....you could maybe, I don't know....have sex and save your own hide there, Miss Hymen-Intactus"  -- and the "this story is just hurting me, and I don't know why I'm supposed to watch it.  On a premium channel, no less."  

 

I remember Michelle Fairley's face in that incredible scene when she finds Robb hacking at a tree and crying, and says "Then we will kill them all" and the look on her face was terrifying.  I mean, I fully believed her in that moment.  In the "Oh shit, you had better pray this lady never comes for you, Cersei, or anyone else."  

 

So I just don't buy that they didn't think it was a good use of Fairley's time to stand around looking menacing.  I get why they might think they needed to tone down how thoroughly awful and frightening her appearance is described as being -- that is asking an actor to spend hours every day in a makeup chair and it can be hell on their skin on top of everything else..  

 

Sorry, I keep sidetracking myself with how much I'm focusing on that:  Here we go:  Other stuff in no particular order:  

 

Arya and The Hound....uh....so I had one opinion of that prior to reading about Dead Cat/Un-Cat and then afterward I had another, but here was my initial one:  In the Book it seems far more obvious that The Hound actually feels some obligation to get Arya to safety.  That he doesn't actually believe someone will be all that keen on paying a ransom for her, as much as he is actually trying to get her to some form of family. 

 

That last scene plays out so differently.  In The Show, The Hound is trying to goad her into killing him and Arya's reasons for not mercy killing him are....she's practically a sociopathic killer at that point.  It actually a little discombobulating because she has heard his story, she has some awareness that he's in pain and sick, yet still trying to get her somewhere.  He even fucking gets mortally wounded trying to (from his perspective) continue protecting her (because it's not like he know Brienne and the last person The Hound trusts is someone claiming to be an honorable person).  

 

In the Book it is only that she comprehends that he's sitting there, knowing that she is about to kill him that stops her and it's sad, rather than "Oh man, Arya, when did you become such a psycho?" of the series.  She denies him mercy and compassion for a bad a reason.  When she says he shouldn't have hit her with an Axe, he should have saved her mother....he stood zero chance of being able to....less than zero, but he would have had a far swifter death. 

 

In the weirdest way, she punishes him for saving her, rather than having them all die together.   The way The Hound was left to die in Season Four has always made me wonder if he's coming back.  It is a rule of scifi and fantasy : Offscreen deaths, particularly implied ones don't count for much.  

 

So for a while I thought they could have him pop back up in some capacity.   But after reading about Dead Cat and the Brotherhood actively looking for The Hound, trust me that "well, maybe he isn't dead" just got a lot, a lot, a lot weirder and with a huge variety of possibilities.  But it sounds like The Show has just cut themselves off from that possibility and for really dumb reasons....while adding in tons of scenes in brothels, lots of wandering on Dany and Jon's part too.  It isn't that they lacked sufficient time to tell those stories, it's that they made time wasting choices in the "How can we convey all of this" ....because I am telling you, I think the audience would really, really like to have seen a less gruesome version of Un-Cat, because despite Bran's tale of the Rat King, no one ever pays for misdeeds in this story.  

 

Even Jaime losing his sword hand is cold comfort when the Stark family is either scattered, ruined or dead seems like small, small punishment and he's really not the guy who deserves the bulk of it:  Bolton, Ramsay and Frey ALL deserve to have something go pear-shaped and horrible for them after the duplicitous, evil shit they have pulled.  

 

I'm sorry, every time I start talking about something else, I keep coming back to that.  I'm trying here:   So Arya sets off for Bravos at the end of the book and it has a different feeling than it did in the series.  It is one of the few things that comes across as hopeful in the book and the series, but The Book, when she finds herself cheated out of a proper price for Craven, realizing she's left behind the Hound's gold and could have had her passage if she'd simply granted The Hound the mercy he actually did grant others, and denied himself, because if he was as completely without honor as Arya thinks him in that moment, he'd have ditched her and went on his merry "I'll rob someone" way and gone to Bravos himself. 

 

I need to check notes on the Other chapters to find the other stuff but trust me, I also didn't fail to notice that in the Book one of my biggest, longest held, and often stated objection to the "Why the fuck did Mance Rayder never think to simply ask if...."  and motherfucker that answer is in the book too!  The Show left out The Horn of Winter and just.....GAH.  

 

So incredibly frustrating that they were so determined to leave out fantasy elements that they actually made this a much less interesting tale.  Mance does ask, even if it is far too late and if he'd asked Mormont (and the story even covers that) when he had the chance, there might have been a chance.  Jon recognizes that.  Mance Rayder on The Show is just a pale shadow of the character in the books and it's again, needless.  Even if they couldn't convey the scope of the Wildlings, you basically just need a prop-master to convey that damned Horn. 

 

ETA:

 

And Tyrion being a cyborg the whole time? It's such a shocker but when you look back you can't imagine the plot going any other way. Can't believe the show got rid of that!

 

*blink* 

 

So that's got to be the Trick portion of the Trick-or-Treat of Halloween.  I ...hope. 

Edited October 31, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

So I was binge watching season four with my significant other and got to see him be delightfully surprised by Joffrey's death.  So knowing the Tywin's death was coming - I waited the rest of the season for that big moment and to me - it just fell so flat.  I think Peter D's best moment that season was when he demanded trial by combat.  And it's not like he couldn't have handled the material if they had played Tyrion as the book has him.  I really don't know why they changed it.  I mean I guess it does whitewash him a little - especially by having Shae pull a knife on him.

 

But I swear to heaven that the way it all plays out in the books, I have expected to discover the Shae was always in Tywin's employ from the moment Bran found her in the camp to the moment she testified and ended up in his bed.  I realize it probably wasn't all that - but damn, it wouldn't have surprised me in the books.  Plus - like shimpy so elegantly put it - what happened to Tysha was likely the defining moment of Tyrion's character.  Finding out that every moment of his life since then was based on one huge LIE, would have rocked him to the core of who he was and is a much better explanation for MURDER than whatever the hell motivated him to go see his father in the show.

 

There are times when I think the show has done a decent job of substituting one character for another, but Shae and Tysha just aren't the same and they don't develop Tyrion the same way.  I think that's why on the show I felt so let down by that scene - it just didn't resonate the way it did in the books.

 

 

So a couple of other notes....

 

Ayra and the Hound... see I think the show messed that up a lot.  In the books when she refused to kill him - I kind of understood it.  But on the show, I could not - at all - understand why she wouldn't give him that mercy.  It made ZERO sense to me.  They had bonded in a way that to me didn't take place in the books.  And this is one of those examples of an actor who made me like a character a lot more on the show than I did in the books.  I don't care for the Hound in the books.  I know he is interesting, and he seems to want to get Ayra to safety, but I still don't like him much.  On the show, I really have a soft spot for him and when Ayra turned and walked away from him - I was actually kind of pissed.

 

 

UnCat - now that I read everyone's comments here, I can see why everyone wants her.  I haven't told my viewing partner about her because I'm not 100% sure she won't eventually show up.  There are a few other things that I haven't told him about out of hopes that they will show up in season six (not for shimpy):

Once I see Myrcella dead on the show - I will probably spill the beans about the queen making plot from Dorne which I loved so much. But until then, I live in hope that someone on that damn boat has an antidote and we still might see that come to life. I haven't spilled the beans on Doran's scheming because despite not having those characters in the show - I am still hoping for some version of that in season six. Similarly, I haven't mentioned anything about how the North is so much different because it would take SO long to explain it and hopefully some of it is coming next season. I did tell him that Ramsey doesn't marry Sansa in the books and that Jamie's story is completely different, but I didn't give details.  I also couldn't contain my excitement over Tyrion and Dany meeting so I think he figured out that hasn't happened in the books yet lol. I might be a bad viewing partner!

.  Anyway, even if UnCat doesn't show up, I have always thought we still might see her story played out with a different character.  And I still hope that's true.  Because I'm starting to realize just how imbalanced the show has become in terms of who takes hits and who doesn't.  The books seem much more even to me and there is this constant undercurrent that makes you believe the characters you care about might just rise out of this mess and be victorious. 

 

The show lacks that feeling - by a factor of 100.  Season five spoilers that shimpy can read:

One example, out of all the characters that were left in danger or suffered in the last episode - it was only Cersei who seemed to have the hope of getting even with her enemies. I mean really WTH?

Edited October 31, 2015 by nksarmi

[Triskan]

Well, I was curious to get your thoughts on the latest Sam chapters, where you can see him manipulate the election of the new LC, it was some great moments for his character ! 

 

Oh, and I was also wondering if you'd comment on Val and Dalla, and the fact that Mance is a father in the books. 

 

And that amazing moment where Jon compares the red of Melisandre to the red of Ghost's eyes... red and white, blood and snow...

 

And obligatory : "I soooooooo miss Val in the show !"... cause Val ! ^^

[stillshimpy]

So...they kind of (and I've just realized, spoiler tag time) spoiler for season 5

did have Val, in a way.  The beautiful Wildling Woman, who is so incredibly striking...and so obviously doomed ...we referred to her as "Fuck Men" who was turned into a Wight within an episode....that was the show's nod to her, wasn't it?  What a cheat then.  

 

Okay, I'm still trying to get through some of the stuff here:  You have NO idea how weird it was for me to read Sansa's last chapter and find out that "Oh holy shit, the reason Petyr tells everyone he had sex with Cat is....he thinks he had sex with Cat?!?"   That was the first time I ever questioned the Show's decision to almost completely de-sexualize Petyr.  It's just yet another "wow, you took away the emotional motivation from a character, why?"  

 

I mean he's a freaking monster on so many levels, and yes, I've realized that Littlefinger threatens Roz with the client of certain appetites, he's almost certainly describing poor freaking Jeyne Poole's fate (and I hope to God I'm wrong, but that was a retroactive "Pow! OOF!" ) ....and there's a weirdly satisfying quality to using that damned musician as his Lysa murdering scapegoat, because that guy was twisted as hell. Yet, it was also important to learn a) what the hell that Tansy business was about and b) why it is that Petyr's hatred of Catelyn stands in equal measure with what was once actual love for her....and that his weird fixation on Sansa is ever-so-slightly less bizarre when he sees what has to look like "My second chance at the life I wanted" because whereas he's evil as hell, most villains aren't aware "Wow, I am evil.  Check it out.  I even smell of brimstone.  Have a forked tail.  Enjoy the torture of helpless things.  Wooo and hooo! EVIL."  ....most villains believe they are right and justified in what they are doing....and if Petyr thought he had actually had sex with Cat, he would have felt very betrayed by her.  That doesn't justify his actions, it just explains why he does some of the things he does.  Explanations are not excuses or reason of absolution, but they do help in fleshing out a character. 

 

Someone upthread said they wondered what my reaction to reading the full history was and finding out that Lysa had poisoned Jon Arryn was a mind-fuck they I had already experienced in the show.  Finding out that Joffrey sent the assassin was just "Wuh...huh?" 

 

Littlefinger is one of the show's more successful, villainous creations, but finding out that he really was warped by something that started out as reasonably good, or decent (he was smitten with a pretty girl when he was a boy) just turned into a lot of sinister motivation for wanting to ruin the world that he feels broke his heart.  

 

I don't feel quite the same level of outrage over changing "Cat" to "Your sister", because there's a kind of reasonable explanation.  In the show he's saving Sansa, pretty much period.  In the book he saves her, in part, because there's a scapegoat right there.  Someone he can pin the murder too.  Someone who doesn't actually know enough about Lysa Arryn to know that she has a sister named Cat, but presumably people in the Vale will know that Petyr Baelish once fought a duel with Brandon Stark, etc.  So the word swap makes sense to me, or at least doesn't bother me.  

 

Both scenes require Sansa to back him up and he is taking that chance, but in the Show's version, there's at least some question as to what Sansa will do from there.  Will she back him up?  In the Book, there's far less reason to wonder:  The setup has Sansa noting that he seems to weigh things out (stroking his chin) and his first instinct isn't "Kill this millstone around my neck" ...but closer to "I see (thoughtful pause, as he -- from Sansa's perspective -- makes the choice to kill Lysa in order to save her..." 

 

But once again, they took something away from Sansa.   It's such a tiny detail and I don't understand why they did it.  Sansa grabbing Lysa's hair so that they will both go over if she does is another big deal.  

 

On Sam's running back and forth and manipulating the election, yes, it's a good moment series of chapters for Sam...and I liked that this is a much, much tighter arc in the book, but my reception of Sam's part in the election was ....well, I knew that Jon was going to be elected, so there wasn't a lot of "I wonder what will happen??" and instead, I was struck more by Sam revisiting the concept of the honorable lie.  

 

I was really more fascinated by "Oh shit, Jon is really tempted by Stannis's offer...." and his thought process on turning his back on the gods of his father, because for goodness sake, we know about the Weir gate and Coldhands and there are reasons to believe that turning his back on the old gods would doom that damned world.  

 

As for Mance being a father, I guess I just sort of didn't really focus very much on that, but it isn't because it fails to be interesting.  It's because I really was reading that all with a countdown clock practically running in the background. 

Edited October 31, 2015 by stillshimpy

[John Potts]

On Tywin's assassination, I feel GRRM should have simply copied Shakespeare and said:

 

And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover
To entertain these fair well-spoken days,
I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days. [Richard III, Act 1 Scene 1]

 

... and have Tyrion simply say, "They've all betrayed me - I'll see the lot of them dead!" and fully embrace villainy (ironically becoming even more like his father). Its not like he hasn't already plundered Shakespeare for inspiration (or more charitably, plundered the same sources). In fact

he spends two books meandering around asking, "Where do whores go" and still not meeting up with Dany!

[Delta1212]

On Tywin's assassination, I feel GRRM should have simply copied Shakespeare and said:

And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover

To entertain these fair well-spoken days,

I am determined to prove a villain

And hate the idle pleasures of these days. [Richard III, Act 1 Scene 1]

... and have Tyrion simply say, "They've all betrayed me - I'll see the lot of them dead!" and fully embrace villainy (ironically becoming even more like his father). Its not like he hasn't already plundered Shakespeare for inspiration (or more charitably, plundered the same sources). In fact

he spends two books meandering around asking, "Where do whores go" and still not meeting up with Dany!

In fairness,

he only does that for one book. It's just that it comes after another book in which he doesn't appear, so it makes it feel even more dragged out than it otherwise would

Edited October 31, 2015 by Delta1212

[ambi76]

Book 6 spoiler

And will do that for one more book (the not meeting Dany part at least) as GRRM has said, they will only meet at the very end of TWOW. I almost fell of my chair crying/laughing when I read that.

[Seerow]

And will do that for one more book (the not meeting Dany part at least) as GRRM has said, they will only meet at the very end of TWOW. I almost fell of my chair crying/laughing when I read that.

 

Wow, could you label that spoiler as being specific to post-book 5? 

[Eegah]

I remember there were quite a few book fans worried when UnCat didn't come at the end of Season 3 that they would make Talisa even more of an absurd Mary Sue by having her be the one resurrected instead. I still kind of think that would be a hilarious "Fuck you."

[stillshimpy]

Wow, that actually just made me laugh out loud, because yup, that would have been a way to really twist the knife with a lemon-juice-coated blade. 

[Which Tyler]

Shimpy spoiler

Because in the show, Bran tells the Rat King story. So they include that....and nothing comes of it. NOTHING. It's so disheartening. It's so bleak. Every hideous, heinous thing that happens goes unanswered and the most rotten cream always rises to the top of this particular tale.

because despite Bran's tale of the Rat King, no one ever pays for misdeeds in this story.

Shimpy spoiler

I wanna, I wanna, I wanna. Pleeeeeaaaaaaasssssseee can I? I really, really wanna...

Oh you're really mean, I hate you all, you're ruining my life!

Edited October 31, 2015 by Which Tyler

[Mya Stone]

Shimpy spoiler

Because in the show, Bran tells the Rat King story. So they include that....and nothing comes of it. NOTHING. It's so disheartening. It's so bleak. Every hideous, heinous thing that happens goes unanswered and the most rotten cream always rises to the top of this particular tale.

Shimpy spoiler

I wanna, I wanna, I wanna. Pleeeeeaaaaaaasssssseee can I? I really, really wanna...

Oh you're really mean, I hate you all, you're ruining my life!

I miss you.

[Haleth]

Shimpy spoiler

Because in the show, Bran tells the Rat King story. So they include that....and nothing comes of it. NOTHING. It's so disheartening. It's so bleak. Every hideous, heinous thing that happens goes unanswered and the most rotten cream always rises to the top of this particular tale.

because despite Bran's tale of the Rat King, no one ever pays for misdeeds in this story.

 

If nothing else,

the payoff of the Rat King story is something that gives the reader hope that the North truly does remember.  Yeah, Frey pie is pretty gross, but it does mean that the Boltons are on borrowed time.

 The show could really use that.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Haleth

[mac123x]

The Ghost of High Heart:

The old gods stir and will not let me sleep. I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more.

 

First time I re-read SoS that gave me the creeps.  And sent me scrambling to see if I could match the other parts of both of her prophecies.

[nksarmi]

Oh holy crap - NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Book 6 spoiler

And will do that for one more book (the not meeting Dany part at least) as GRRM has said, they will only meet at the very end of TWOW. I almost fell of my chair crying/laughing when I read that.

[Delta1212]

If nothing else,

the payoff of the Rat King story is something that gives the reader hope that the North truly does remember. Yeah, Frey pie is pretty gross, but it does mean that the Boltons are on borrowed time.

The show could really use that.

I've said it before,

Wyman Manderly

, while not a "major" cut is my most rued one. Especially since

Wendel is clearly at the Red Wedding.

Sometimes I hope that they're just holding off like they've done with a number of other things, but especially after this last season it seems like they've sort of missed the opportune moment.

[Reader of Books]

Shimpy - yep, you have described the issues with the Tyrion situation very well. It was 'the big moment' that caused me to disconnect from the show.

 

Show Tyrion just doesn't have the motivation to go on a killing spree apart from 'self defense' in one case. He doesn't really have the motivation to go visit Tywin. And (Season 6 leaked photos Spoiler - Fair warning to any who click) 

Shea is still alive FFS.

. The Tysha revelation was a big moment for Jaime as he is growing as a character but it causes a psychopathic lightswitch to be flicked inside Tyrion. It informs everything he does from now on. Not having it causes both their character off trundling down very different paths.

 

For me the Arya scene was heartbreaking as it marked a moment when that little bit more of her humanity flickered out as she grows darker. And getting on the ship was a Hail Mary Pass. The show was just the plucky little BAMF getting on a ship.

 

Sam's scene was significant for me because it was the first time he was being really proactive in a situation where he was outpowered. It matters more in the books because his primary ally, Jon, is in a far weaker position than in the show. It is a real turning point for him.

 

Mance/Val/Prince Rayder and the Horn of Joramun This whole situation changed the events significantly. Jon was in a real bind. He had to kill Mance, but if he did, the Horn would be blown and all would be lost. He had to get a message to the Wall, but they wouldn't believe him anyway. Stannis really did save the day. In the show, Jon kinda had the situation under control, and Stannis.... well to me, riding in as he did felt like it screwed Jon up. But that was Stannis's big moment. He was the one southerner who cared enough to come to the Wall. It mattered. And the Horn is still a huge Wildcard. Mance having a son adds some sorely missing colour to the Wildlings at the very least, but is also a Wildcard.

 

Oh and on Val and that spoiler you wrote shimpy (season 5 content ahead) 

The woman at the Battle of Hardhome - no, she wasn't written as a proxy for Val. The part was originally written for a man, but during casting they made a captain's call to cast a woman to act it.

[Reader of Books]

I've said it before,

Wyman Manderly

, while not a "major" cut is my most rued one. Especially since

Wendel is clearly at the Red Wedding.

 

 

This. And they also went to the trouble of all-but zooming right in to establish it as well as the mentions of 

Whiteharbor - eg during the funeral speech Lord Mormont gave at Craster's Keep, and at other places. They appeared to be setting it up then dropped it.

[WindyNights]

On Tywin's assassination, I feel GRRM should have simply copied Shakespeare and said:

And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover

To entertain these fair well-spoken days,

I am determined to prove a villain

And hate the idle pleasures of these days. [Richard III, Act 1 Scene 1]

... and have Tyrion simply say, "They've all betrayed me - I'll see the lot of them dead!" and fully embrace villainy (ironically becoming even more like his father). Its not like he hasn't already plundered Shakespeare for inspiration (or more charitably, plundered the same sources). In fact

he spends two books meandering around asking, "Where do whores go" and still not meeting up with Dany!

This actually (TWOW spoiler)

does happen in the Mercy Chapter. The play does a variation of Richard III's line for Tyrion.

Also come on

Tyrion only does that for one book. He's not in AFFC.

Edited October 31, 2015 by WindyNights

[Which Tyler]

I miss you.

TBH, I miss doing it - despite all the criticism I see for S5; though even on this thread I can't avoid spoilers for it (thankfully, I also know that the season didn't go too far into the future; so it's worth the risk for this thread only - oh, and a D&E read-through next, hopefully)

[Lavignac]

Wow, this is the moment... StillShimpy, welcome to the dark side of the Spitball Wall... I'm going back to this major question that the Unsullied tackled, does the show's story hold on its own?... and the variant, does it hold up to the books?....

Now your perceptions have gone through all of those different phases. I assume from your comments that you are getting to the point that you feel the books' story is so much richer... and the reason you began to read the books is that you were getting disappointed by the show's internal story; but I would enjoy reading how you would express your thoughts on your own at this moment? Is the show just too bleak for you to recommend it at all as engrossing entertainment?

[Lavignac]

Shimpy - yep, you have described the issues with the Tyrion situation very well. It was 'the big moment' that caused me to disconnect from the show.

 

Show Tyrion just doesn't have the motivation to go on a killing spree apart from 'self defense' in one case. He doesn't really have the motivation to go visit Tywin. And (Season 6 leaked photos Spoiler - Fair warning to any who click) 

Shea is still alive FFS.

. The Tysha revelation was a big moment for Jaime as he is growing as a character but it causes a psychopathic lightswitch to be flicked inside Tyrion. It informs everything he does from now on. Not having it causes both their character off trundling down very different paths.

 

For me the Arya scene was heartbreaking as it marked a moment when that little bit more of her humanity flickered out as she grows darker. And getting on the ship was a Hail Mary Pass. The show was just the plucky little BAMF getting on a ship.

 

Sam's scene was significant for me because it was the first time he was being really proactive in a situation where he was outpowered. It matters more in the books because his primary ally, Jon, is in a far weaker position than in the show. It is a real turning point for him.

 

Mance/Val/Prince Rayder and the Horn of Joramun This whole situation changed the events significantly. Jon was in a real bind. He had to kill Mance, but if he did, the Horn would be blown and all would be lost. He had to get a message to the Wall, but they wouldn't believe him anyway. Stannis really did save the day. In the show, Jon kinda had the situation under control, and Stannis.... well to me, riding in as he did felt like it screwed Jon up. But that was Stannis's big moment. He was the one southerner who cared enough to come to the Wall. It mattered. And the Horn is still a huge Wildcard. Mance having a son adds some sorely missing colour to the Wildlings at the very least, but is also a Wildcard.

 

Oh and on Val and that spoiler you wrote shimpy (season 5 content ahead) 

The woman at the Battle of Hardhome - no, she wasn't written as a proxy for Val. The part was originally written for a man, but during casting they made a captain's call to cast a woman to act it.

Sorry, got to comment / correct the Season 6 "spoiler" mentioned:

Shae might appear as a hallucination to Tyrion. Much more likely than her being alive. And all that 'Just cause they love the actress, and are wondering how to get around characterizing Tyrion with his Tysha-obsession.

 

Now, for actual readable new contents ;-)

The Horn of Joramun was a really poignant sub-plot that added life to the North storyline. It didn't even require actual Fantasy elements being shown, no special CGI required. It's just discussion of n important prop!

Sam's lobbying was a great coming-of-age story. He has shown great talent and usefulness in a planned way, not by accident. Although the raven in the pot makes one wonder whether Sam had more unseen help!

Edited October 31, 2015 by Lavignac

[Reader of Books]

Sorry, got to comment / correct the Season 6 "spoiler" mentioned:

 

Now, for actual readable new contents ;-)

The Horn of Joramun was a really poignant sub-plot that added life to the North storyline. It didn't even require actual Fantasy elements being shown, no special CGI required. It's just discussion of n important prop!

Sam's lobbying was a great coming-of-age story. He has shown great talent and usefulness in a planned way, not by accident. Although the raven in the pot makes one wonder whether Sam had more unseen help!

 

On the spoiler. Aye. Might be a lot of things. Might even be productive. I can't see it though. Not even sure I will watch it. Much of this season I didn't watch until much later, and even then 

some of it (Dorne) I could only get through imagining there was a laugh track running.

[chandraReborn]

I think the thing with "Your sister" instead of "Only Cat," is that so much had been changed from the books that little, unnecessary changes started bugging people. Like by that point it was pretty clear we weren't getting UnCat on the show, and then they started changing little things for no reason? 

[Delta1212]

Well, I also think some of the anger over "Your sister" was down to the fact that the phrase "Only Cat" was being used as a shorthand to refer to the whole scene within the fandom, so it felt like they changed a more essential part of the scene than might otherwise have been the case if the importance of those two words hadn't become amplified a bit within the fan community.

[ambi76]

Oh, sorry Seerow, if that book 6 talk spoiled you, but you and nksarmi can rest assured that

you can't take everything GRRM says in interviews as gospel. I just found it so utterly funny when that interviewer eagerly asked for when Dany and Tyrion might meet in TWOW "like really soon for sure!1!!" and GRRM clammed all up and was all: "Nah. More like at the end. Go away."

Edited October 31, 2015 by ambi76

[Dev F]

I understand the argument that omitting the Tysha material causes problems with some of Tyrion's other relationships going forward, but I will always maintain that it simply wouldn't have made sense to include it given the changes that were made in the Tyrion/Shae relationship going all the way back to season 1.

 

Like shimpy says, the point of the Tysha revelation is for Tyrion to realize that once upon a time he did have a woman who truly loved him, and his father made him think that it was all a lie. It's a moment with deep significance for the character, because not only was his father's deception responsible for a great deal of his self-loathing, but it also sowed the seeds of his recent imprisonment and embarrassment, because it's how he got so twisted up that he couldn't tell that Shae was just a gold-digging whore who would turn on him at the first opportunity. That's a pretty devastating discovery: "Not only has your father been railroading you for the past few months, but he created the entire railroad system that has led you to this moment from the time you were a boy."

 

And the reason you can't translate that to the TV series is, show!Tyrion doesn't have any of those problems. He doesn't think that no woman could ever love him, because Shae actually did. And he doesn't have reason to believe that the Tysha deception got him into his current situation, because there's nothing unhealthy about believing that a person who loves you actually does. Without those psychological underpinnings, the revelation is just an exercise in pointless soap opera melodrama: "Not only has your father been railroading you for the past few months, but he also did an unrelated horrible thing to you many years ago!"

 

So they quite rightly, I think, gave show!Tyrion a different story: he's a man undone not by self-loathing and self-delusion but by an unquenchable desire to prove himself mentally capable, to know all there is to know. That was the point of the "beetle" scene that's often disparaged as a pointless waste of time; that's the scene that explains why, absent of the Tysha revelation, he would feel it necessary to confront his father rather than simply get the hell out of Dodge. Which, of course, is only the most recent of several scenes in which Tyrion decides to stay and match wits his enemies rather than fleeing to safety. And that in turn is the revised tragedy of the Shae/Tyrion relationship -- that he could've been happy with this woman who loved him, if only he didn't need to prove how clever he was all the time. And that's how Tywin's murder still serves as a grim climax, revealing that Tywin had scarred his son not by ruining his sexuality but by making him think he always had to prove that he was really the shrewd lord's son.

 

And to me, up to this point in the story, that revised arc actually works really well. It's only later, when the show starts borrowing elements of Tyrion's subsequent book storyline that no longer make sense given the altered context, that it starts to break down. So I don't blame the season 4 finale for simply embracing the changes that had been baked into Tyrion's arc since season 1; I blame season 5 for failing to realize how fundamentally the subsequent beats in his story needed to change. (Which is funny, because in some ways it's still pretty dramatically different from what we get in the books.)

[stillshimpy]

Hehe, Tag City, tally ho!  You guys have fun with that.  It actually kind of cracks me up to see the "wow, so there are issues being debated, so that usually means I need to take a blood thinner before approaching whatever passage seems to be attracting all the tagging."  It's like the Gang Signs of Westeros :-) 

 

Now your perceptions have gone through all of those different phases. I assume from your comments that you are getting to the point that you feel the books' story is so much richer... and the reason you began to read the books is that you were getting disappointed by the show's internal story; but I would enjoy reading how you would express your thoughts on your own at this moment? Is the show just too bleak for you to recommend it at all as engrossing entertainment?

 

You know, I end up chatting with Mya on FB about this kind of stuff so I get a chance to really consider my opinions on this, and I have to say that at this point I would put them down in the "They have failed" column if it wasn't for the fact that they clearly aren't trying to tell the same story.  

 

I don't know why that is.  I don't know if they embraced the notion that scifi/fantasy cannot thrive with a large audience which  ....I'm sorry, it's just not true...the stagnation of science fiction/fantasy as a genre doesn't have to do with a lack of audience interest.  I truly believe it doesn't.  It just that there came a point where there was a perception that it was a niche audience for TV, and so the networks with the worst programming practices tended to pick it up the genre.  

 

Audiences for fantasy/scifi aren't small because people shun the genre (bigger block buster movies than scifi/fantasy cannot be found) it's just network TV and standard TV practices are in the early stages of death for traditional viewing habits.  

 

That's an entirely different subject, I know, but I have been trying to puzzle out -- here with you guys, elsewhere with Mya and for about the last ten years what the fear of depicting fantasy/magic/scifi is based in -- and I honestly don't know what it is.   

 

But what I can say with a really high level of assurance at this stage is that I think the TV Show could have done a good job with this, and just decided not to.  It is a much richer, more interesting, more inventive and far less punishing tale in the books.  It's not the stuff of lighthearted fantasy, but I can name exactly one "Hooray!" moment from the show (Robb riding out of the woods with Jaime Lannister as a prisoner) from the series....and it's the same moment that leads to everything go spectacularly to shit on so many levels, but at least for that moment in the show it's actually hugely entertaining in a good way.  And very rarely does that happen on the series, where pretty much per book, there is at least one "holy shit, what's going to happen with that?"  that the series took a pass on. 

 

The Warging skills of the Stark Kids, the fact that it sure as hell looks like the powers-that-be-beyond are coming for the Freys and that is one of the more mystifying choices the series made:  They had characters cover the "Oh someone who does this will pay" legends and then by opting out of that, they all look like a bunch of rubes for how many people believe in these things so wholeheartedly -- but have the self-same people scoffing about an Army of the Dead.  

 

They have characters making fun of the ...however it is phrased, "Grumpkins, ghouls, hags" (ghosties, ghoulies, long-legged beasties and things go bump in the night) of it all....but for the love god, that's the central arc of the entire series. 

 

So I almost don't understand why they decided to make the series, when they have so much disdain for the elements that make it interesting and surprising.  I get they are trying to paint the people as the real monsters -- and that's in the books too -- but it's a disservice to the story and in some instances makes me feel like they are mocking the genre by being so reluctant to include things that make it part of this genre.  

 

Skip Val but add in umpteen trips to Crasters.   Don't have Un-Cat or Stark Wargs, but make sure to have a contortionist hooker and a running joke about the sexual prowess of Pod?  Some of the choices they made are fun -- Bronn's a more interesting character in the series and he usually adds some fun.  Some of them just make this story so depressing and....gosh, ordinary.  Un-special.  Another bleak tale about how much people suck, but Zombies are popular now so keep them. 

 

One cool thing, I got to find out what people have valued in this story and why you all have waited years to find out what is going to happen.  The story, as it stood on HBO, made me kind of wonder "Uh...what is the lure of this for so many people?  It is a pitiless, merciless, sad story....how do you keep people interested in something bleak for that long? 

 

I got my answer but it's sort of troubling one as it concerns the TV series:  They ditched interesting things so that we could concentrate on a different kind of genre: horror.   Season five spoiler

burning a little girl alive...which is clearly not going to happen in the book and it wasn't even what I suspect, a swap out for Edric Storm rather than depict fantasy, magic, horns of winter?

 I don't claim to understand the choices.  

 

But boy, they decided to both up the Horror and Bland up the story a lot.   Mance Rayder onscreen?  Not riveting stuff.  Mance Rayder at the end of this book revealing that he had a way to bring that wall Tumbling down, but that they all needed that Wall?  Riveting fucking stuff and they ditched it. 

[Reader of Books]

I understand the argument that omitting the Tysha material causes problems with some of Tyrion's other relationships going forward, but I will always maintain that it simply wouldn't have made sense to include it given the changes that were made in the Tyrion/Shae relationship going all the way back to season 1.

 

It all still would have worked. The Tysha situation informed the actions of his whole life for basically a decade. It was still absolutely important to him. 

 

Sure someone else came along who loved him (loved him so much she tried to kill him with a knife), but that does not mean Tysha would not have been a motivator for his actions in that scene. It still absolutely would have. He does still have those problems in the show. Different, sure. Gone, not at all.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Reader of Books

[Reader of Books]

So I almost don't understand why they decided to make the series, when they have so much disdain for the elements that make it interesting and surprising.  I get they are trying to paint the people as the real monsters -- and that's in the books too -- but it's a disservice to the story and in some instances makes me feel like they are mocking the genre by being so reluctant to include things that make it part of this genre.  

 

Skip Val but add in umpteen trips to Crasters.   Don't have Un-Cat or Stark Wargs, but make sure to have a contortionist hooker and a running joke about the sexual prowess of Pod?  Some of the choices they made are fun -- Bronn's a more interesting character in the series and he usually adds some fun.  Some of them just make this story so depressing and....gosh, ordinary.  Un-special.  Another bleak tale about how much people suck, but Zombies are popular now so keep them. 

 

 

They signed the deal with GRRM when they had read to the point you are up to now. AFfC was released sometime soon after, so the things they really wanted to show was Ned's unplanned reduction in height, Dany's over-catered barbeque at Yunkai, the Red Wedding, Jaime/Brienne and Tyrion's trial/Tywin's murder. They were the key motivating moments they wanted to get on the screen.

 

As for the humour... I think they missed so much simple material that was already in the books. Take Dolorous Ed for example and just look at some of the things he said from the last couple of chapters. The talk about the guy who fell from the great height into the water and how lucky he was.

 

"Did he live?" 

"No. He was already dead. That's why he fell. Still lucky though."

 

and, at another Lord Commander vote he gives his speech "Can that one person who keeps voting for me please stop now."

 

I picture Ed as Neil from the Young Ones in these kind of lines, but the actor they have is fine - its just a shame they don't use them. Its comedy gold without falling into the trap of going to slapstick.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Reader of Books

[WindyNights]

They signed the deal with GRRM when they had read to the point you are up to now. AFfC was released sometime soon after, so the things they really wanted to show was Ned's unplanned reduction in height, Dany's over-catered barbeque at Yunkai, the Red Wedding, Jaime/Brienne and Tyrion's trial/Tywin's murder. They were the key motivating moments they wanted to get on the screen.

As for the humour... I think they missed so much simple material that was already in the books. Take Dolorous Ed for example and just look at some of the things he said from the last couple of chapters. The talk about the guy who fell from the great height into the water and how lucky he was.

"Did he live?"

"No. He was already dead. That's why he fell. Still lucky though."

and, at another Lord Commander vote he gives his speech "Can that one person who keeps voting for me please stop now."

I picture Ed as Neil from the Young Ones in these kind of lines, but the actor they have is fine - its just a shame they don't use them. Its comedy gold without falling into the trap of going to slapstick.

You mean ADWD. They had already signed the deal after AFFC had come out.

[stillshimpy]

and, at another Lord Commander vote he gives his speech "Can that one person who keeps voting for me please stop now."

 

Not to mention that the next time the vote is taken, his votes have doubled to two.  

 

Or the men at The Wall taking bets about which of the straw-men will get the most arrows.  

 

I mean, in season one they did try a bit:  Jaime talking to Jory was funny "Oh aye, he's a good lad."  about Theon Greyjoy as Jaime has just described him as being a shark atop a mountain.  Then, of course, they take that very same moment to have Jaime do that "I goad you by stabbing this guy through the eye, the one he told me he almost lost, and I won't even bother to be looking at him.

 

Drunk Cersei is funny sometimes.  It's not necessarily that they killed all humor.  They sometimes really succeed with their attempts at dark humor.  It's that they just don't seem to actually like the fantasy elements.  Pyatt Pree reminded me so much of a the Great Gonzo, he was sort of funny, so at least there's that.  

[WindyNights]

Not to mention that the next time the vote is taken, his votes have doubled to two.

Or the men at The Wall taking bets about which of the straw-men will get the most arrows.

I mean, in season one they did try a bit: Jaime talking to Jory was funny "Oh aye, he's a good lad." about Theon Greyjoy as Jaime has just described him as being a shark atop a mountain. Then, of course, they take that very same moment to have Jaime do that "I goad you by stabbing this guy through the eye, the one he told me he almost lost, and I won't even bother to be looking at him.

Drunk Cersei is funny sometimes. It's not necessarily that they killed all humor. They sometimes really succeed with their attempts at dark humor. It's that they just don't seem to actually like the fantasy elements. Pyatt Pree reminded me so much of a the Great Gonzo, he was sort of funny, so at least there's that.

Kinda adds to why they decided to call the series Game of Thrones rather than A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Reader of Books]

You mean ADWD. They had already signed the deal after AFFC had come out.

No, I mean AFfC. They signed with Martin mid 2005. Feast was released October 05 (UK) and November 05 (US)

[WindyNights]

No, I mean AFfC. They signed with Martin mid 2005. Feast was released October 05 (UK) and November 05 (US)

That doesn't sound right because the sources I've been looking at say they came up with idea in 2006 which is after AFFC came out. Edited October 31, 2015 by WindyNights