Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[WindyNights]

There's a theory that she could be the daughter of Brynden Rivers and Shiera Seastar, two of Aegon IV's legitimised bastards. I think it was Radio Westeros who suggested this. Plausible IMHO.

There's a point where you have to think that there's a little too many secret Targaryens.

We're close to crossing that line.

The list:

Aegon, Bloodraven, Jon, Aemon and possibly Tyrion and Melisandre(Shiera Seastar) and in some sense Brown Ben Plumm.

We need less secret Targaryens and more secret Starks.

[stillshimpy]

But I do think that there's a difference between Secret = Ultra Special and Unknown: Because in a story where a ton is made out of legitimacy, people got busy with people other than their marital partners, a lot.  Witness:  Everyone who wasn't Ned or Cat thus far, in the story.  

 

I do think that's a theme within the story though.  The perceived value of house names, vs. the actual personality traits that made them names, made them great.  

 

So instead of it striking me as "And another secret Targ?  Really? Getting pretty far-fetched" it seems more like thumbing its nose at the value of a legitimate name.  

 

If Jon Snow is actually a hugely important figure in the story, and he is, he's illegitimate, whatever else he is.   If Ramsay Bolton has been a serious player, and he has, he is more the embodiment of his father than apparently Roose Bolton's legitimate son was.   Theon's repeated theme about having to remember your name also sort of dances around in that area.    

 

Daenerys is convinced that her title, her name,her blood,  her attendant legends (Stormborn, Unburnt) are the things that make her the most worthy of power within the story.  There's a least some evidence that she's starting to crack like an egg from all of the inbred, crazypants traits that go along with an undiluted Targaryen bloodline.  

 

Aegon is almost certainly Faegon, but he's also been being prepared to rule, and actually rule vs. "this is mine by right" his entire life.   Now he's not even in the TV Series, so the show has judged him as being unimportant, but that doesn't mean the books will.  

 

There's an old saying about how "blood will out"  -- a person's background, education, or heritage will eventually reveal itself.   

 

Since it's almost exclusively Targs that this is going on with in the story, it can feel a little lopsided, but they are also the same ancient family that was first represented as being practically gone when the story opened.  So that makes some sense.  Plus, part of the background of the story is the king who legitimized all of his bastards on his deathbed.   It doesn't feel like a contrivance to me when a big part of the story is the idea of the importance of bloodlines and subverting that seems like fair game. 

 

To me there are some characters it would feel like "Well, that was a bit of a cheat, don't you think?" because we are five books deep, which should be more than halfway through and any giant reveal might feel like a bait and switch "Cersie and Jaime, secretly Targs!" for instance, but otherwise, it just seems to be part of the story.  Almost all the Starks that are left are running around concealing who they are, because they have to hide their names, but that isn't actually what determines who they are. 

Edited March 15, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

If Jon Snow is actually a hugely important figure in the story, and he is, he's illegitimate, whatever else he is. 

 

This I think is not completely ruled out, since Targs practiced polygamy, although it was something even harder to swallow for the rest of Westeros than 'normal' incest, and the ToJ scene, the Kingsguard steadily refusing to abandon the post despite all Ned's efforts, while they should actually rush to Viserys, the apparent heir at the moment: this of course could be explained by them being more faithful to Rhaegar than to their vows (though they kept saying that 'they swore a vow'), or by Rhaegar marrying Lyanna, thus making the supposed third head of the dragon a trueborn, instead of a bastard.

 

This I think would actually be a nice complement to the hell poor Jon will go through when he'll discover he's not in fact Ned's son: his entire identity has been built on being 'Eddard's bastard', and it will turn out he's not Eddard's, and not even a bastard. The only character for whom being legitimate will be cause of pain, poor guy ^^ (not that he's not busy enough at the moment with the Zombie Apocalypse and, you know, bleeding to death)

 

But again, these are speculations that can really go both ways.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

This I think is not completely ruled out, since Targs practiced polygamy,

 

It doesn't really matter though.  Since polygamy isn't accepted in the Seven Kingsdoms, he's illegitimate by the rules set by that society.  Legitimacy is just such a stupid concept when it comes to fitness to rule, or worth of a person.  I'm familiar with the idea that Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna, blah blah, quack quack. 

 

However, here's why I think that's -- if not kind of silly -- at least contradicting the point of the story.  It's leaning into the idea that "some ceremony, some words, some recognition of worth beyond actually proving it....really does matter" ....and it just doesn't.  Now, it can be argued that that's just my point of view, and fair enough, but I also think it's a closer to fair point-of-view than constantly blowing the concept of legitimacy as making merit.  Merit is shown through actions, character, choices, inactions and many, many other things, but naming something, legitimizing something does not convey merit or worthiness and we've cost our own world a lot greatness by being so ludicrously obsessed with it.   Witness:  Ramsay Bolton:  A piece of shit with any other name is still just a Sadistic Piece of Shit. 

 

ETA:  and I guess I should say, because that's impassioned enough to show that I gave this a lot of thought:  Yes, my parents were married.  Yes, I was married when I had my son.  This isn't about a personal stake, it's in my perception of why it is wrong to tag someone as being of lesser worth by the absence of some fucking ceremony.  Similarly I think it is wrong to tag someone as being more worthy of respect as a human being because of the presence of said ceremony.  

 

It seems like Martin is actually with me on that.  The only weddings that have been in the books (not necessarily the show) have been FUCKED UP.  Dany's:  Great, she and Drogo fell in love, but she was sold to him (sorry, given as a 'gift' and folks, that's NOT better) .  Sansa and Tyrion:  She's literally being held captive and Tyrion is only slightly more enthusiastic about it.   Robb and Jeyne were off-page, but that's another entirely fucked up situation, because someone in Jeyne's family, if not Jeyne herself, was entrapping Robb.  

 

Margaery and Renly: He's gay and in love with her brother.   Margaery and Joffrey:  He's a psycho who her own grandmother kills off so as to keep her from being brutalized.  Margaery and Tommen:  He's a little boy and she's apparently getting busy and drinking tea in order to have an adult relationship with anyone.  

 

Do we even need to talk about the Freys?  Hey how about Ramsay's lovely nuptials to yet another brutalized, near child?  How about the blessed event of Dany and the "I suppose I must" from both sides union with Hizzy?  

 

I don't think Martin has any greater respect for the sanctity of that bullshit than I do.  I don't think he's out to fluff it by revealing a secret wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but if he is?  It's going to be worth about the same as all the other ones because it sooooo fucked up either from its inception, in its execution or in what it wrought anyway.  

 

Revealing, "Surprise!! You're the actual king, because Rhaegar did marry the girl he either stole and raped, or seduced and wooed....or horrifyingly, maybe some heinous combination thereof.  Have fun on the pointy seat!  It's get you right where you might expect." 

 

ETA2:  Heh, jeez and you'd just never guess that I was happily married from that rant, but I actually am.  

 

It's just history really is littered with questions of legitimacy being used to marginalize people.  Sometimes in creating complete monsters, sometimes blocking us from truly great people.   I've nothing against people getting married, wanting to be married or loving wedding cake (because god knows I do) ....I just think our world tends to value it for a lot of the wrong reasons, again having to do with conveying a sense of worth that seems misplaced to me on the "how to determine something" scale. 

Edited March 15, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

I think if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, it won't matter all that much to most. Maybe a few lords will be swayed by it, but for most it won't matter. Maybe it will be a nice icing-on-the-cake for whomever supports Jon (if Jon leaves the Night's Watch and becomes a potential claimant to the throne) but it'll be Jon's own achievements that will matter.

 

If Rhaegar did indeed marry Lyanna, it makes him even less suitable for King than I previously thought. Did he not pick up a book and read about the Dance of the Dragons, or the Blackfyre Rebellions? A legitimate son from a powerful family with powerful alliances, a power bloc that certainly outmatched Dorne. Factor in some racism against the Dornish, Tyrell-Martell animosity, Tywin's grudge with Elia... It's not hard to imagine lords siding with little Jon Targaryen ahead of his brother Aegon. Jon doesn't even have to be particularly ambitious for a war to break out; he could easily have been used to supplant his brother by ambitious lords wanting to advance their own positions.

[Avaleigh]

Polygamy was allowed and accepted in the Seven Kingdoms at least once. I think given the changing situation with the Faith anyway that Westeros might be open to a change. 

 

I don't see the point in introducing the polygamy anyway if it isn't going to come up again. 

 

ETA: As for the drama with Visenya's son and polygamy, I can seeing Rhaegar being arrogant enough to make that sort of miscalculation.

 

I think the main point is to legitimize Jon and it won't go any further than that. I don't think anyone is going to try to force the people of Westeros to accept polygamy again. Just that it happened this once time. I don't think there will be that much grumbling over the idea of Jon Targaryen from the people who want to support his claim. 

Edited March 15, 2016 by Avaleigh

[stillshimpy]

Here's the thing I don't see the point of: marrying Lyanna and not letting it be known.  I mean, if you're going to try and legitimize the entire endeavor by attempting something, then you'd think he'd have DONE the thing, but secretly marrying her so that it can be revealed with a flourish "oh ho ho, no....all along you had a legitimate claim, Jon Kingson! Don't you see George? You really had a Wonderful Life?"  

 

Just seems kind of....strained, you know?  It's pretty clear that Martin has intended Jon's parentage to always be a central part of the story.  The "And your parents really were in love (I really hope not) and married (oh for goodness sakes) and therefore, you carry with you this certificate of authenticity from the Franklin Mint!" just seems a bridge too far. 

[Terra Nova]

But of course I agree with you, Shimpy, but I think there could be a 'thematic purpose' even for Jon being legitimate, as I partially explained in my previous content. Also, it would some sort of full circle for Jon to become King at the end (if he survives, if there's an Iron Throne, if he's offered it, if he accepts and so on...), having become the embodiment of what Stannis said about 'protecting the kingdom to win the Throne' instead of the other way around. 

And it would be significant even for him to turn the throne down, being some sort of renounce to power in itself, and this time even without the guilt over 'stealing' Winterfell from his trueborn siblings.

Heck, it would be anviliciously ironic for the reader to know via some Bran's vision and the reast of Westeros obvious to that.

 

I don't know, apart from the fact that there are lots of possibilities either way.

 

The other main counter-argument to what I wrote is that fAegon will probably already be the benign king about to be slaughtered by his less-than-pleased aunt or blow up with the whole King's Landing when the wildfire hidden caches will be set afire. Poor fAegon... but at least no more Iron Thrones, for my endless delight.

[WindyNights]

Polygamy was allowed and accepted in the Seven Kingdoms at least once. I think given the changing situation with the Faith anyway that Westeros might be open to a change.

I don't see the point in introducing the polygamy anyway if it isn't going to come up again.

ETA: As for the drama with Visenya's son and polygamy, I can seeing Rhaegar being arrogant enough to make that sort of miscalculation.

I think the main point is to legitimize Jon and it won't go any further than that. I don't think anyone is going to try to force the people of Westeros to accept polygamy again. Just that it happened this once time. I don't think there will be that much grumbling over the idea of Jon Targaryen from the people who want to support his claim.

It was allowed once because it was Aegon the Conqueror and he already came with two wives.

The only other Targ to get into a polygamous marriage was Maegor the Cruel and the Faith threw a huge fit over it partially inspiring a war. That was the last time it was done.

It's super unlikely that even if Rhaegar married Lyanna that the Faith would even accept it.

Not that anyone would find about it anyway. I sincerely doubt people are going to believe that Jon is Rhaegar's bastard. Maybe his inner circle at most.

[Avaleigh]

I think that people would be willing to accept Jon being legitimate if he ends up having a dragon to back up his claim. Kind of like how Rickon's direwolf will persuade people that he is in fact alive and should be the next Lord of Winterfell or King in the North. Also, who knows what sort of proof Howland Reed might have? Wasn't there speculation that there's proof in Lyanna's tomb? I can't recall where I read that. 

[stillshimpy]

I think people would be willing to accept a good and decent king after the shit storm of this rebellion with or without paperwork to back him, if he saves their collective asses.    If there's one thing the story has stressed is that War is hardest on the common people.  The rise of Big Bird's High Sparrow stuff does point to a growing public voice.  Most monarchies do give way to a form of ruling blended with parliament sometimes ceding to democracy.  

 

Maybe Jon's rise is not as the next legitimate King, but of the end of the need for a monarchy.  

 

 

 

The other main counter-argument to what I wrote is that fAegon will probably already be the benign king about to be slaughtered by his less-than-pleased aunt or blow up with the whole King's Landing when the wildfire hidden caches will be set afire. Poor fAegon... but at least no more Iron Thrones, for my endless delight.

 

It's also rather sad that Dany is going to wage war against her only living relative (and that seems like it will almost certainly end up being the case), because whatever else (f)Aegon is, he's at least reasonably close relative of hers.  

 

But I think Westeros will be set to anoint whomever saves them from grave (kind of literally) peril, perhaps dashing the importance of blood inheritance and ushering in a new era might be how this game of thrones ends, as most eventually do.  

Edited March 15, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

I don't see Dany and Faegon ever fighting each other. I think he's going to crash and burn spectacularly before he and Dany ever meet. I'm guessing that Arianne will go down with the ship. 

[Chris24601]

Personally, I think the important thing about Jon is not the legitimacy but that he is quite literally a Song of Ice and Fire... a hybrid of two opposing magical bloodlines and, even more, a union of opposing forces.

As Shimpy has pointed out, Dany may be starting to show signs of Targaryan madness and I think all the signs point to her being Azor Ahai Reborn (champion of fire) and The Stallion Who Mounts The World (burner of cities) and will probably be bring Blood and Fire down on southern Westeros, including killing a beloved king because he's not legit (my guess is they're going to use Tommen in fAegon's place on the show to save time).

Meanwhile the zombonis are sweeping down from the North bringing Ice and Darkness.

If those two forces meet in all out war and it'll probably Biblical and devestating to all the small folk who've already been suffering from the seemingly endless war touched off by the murder of Jon Arryn (and really got going with the murder of Ned Stark).

If there's anyone who's going to be able to forge some kind of peace between the two extremes (or at least help as many people survive the carnage as possible... if that's where the story is going with it*) its going to be Jon Snow.

* I've read some plausible cases that the story has some loose connections to the Ragnorok myth and while I don't buy into them fully (some of their attempts to squeeze certain characters into certain roles are real stretches) I do think the concept that this is a story of how the old world ends and a new one is born is plausible and whether its Noah's Arc, the last two humans and old god hidden away in a forest (with Bran as the "old god" in this scenario), or the ragtag survivors of the 12 colonies of Kobol finding their way to prehistoric Earth... someone is going to survive and rebuild and my money is heavily on Jon being the one who leads those survivors in such a case.

[WindyNights]

I don't see Dany and Faegon ever fighting each other. I think he's going to crash and burn spectacularly before he and Dany ever meet. I'm guessing that Arianne will go down with the ship.

GRRM's already confirmed that there will be a second Dance of Dragons and that was back in 2000 a little after ASOS came out.

[Avaleigh]

GRRM's already confirmed that there will be a second Dance of Dragons and that was back in 2000 a little after ASOS came out.

I thought it was supposed to be Jon vs Dany but I can see it being this way. I just don't see Faegon ever getting a dragon. Edited March 15, 2016 by Avaleigh

[WindyNights]

Speaking of the Dance of Dragons, HBO just released a 20 minute animated adaptation of it narrated by Shireen Baratheon, Viserys Targaryen, Robert Baratheon, Catelyn Stark, Oberyn Martell and Joffrey "Baratheon".

It's not completely accurate to the actual novella and a lot of the tactics have been whittled with quite a bit less context to things.

All said its still really good. I'd rec it to anyone who has read the Rogue Prince and the Princes and the Queen.

[Andeleisha]

I've always liked the idea of Dany on Drogon, Jon on Viserion, and Aegon on Rhaegal. I like the symbolism of Jon getting a white dragon like his white wolf, calling back to his Stark roots, and Aegon gets the dragon named for his father. 

 

Also, on Mel's appearance -- remember that in the books, Mel is not canonically beautiful. Cressen describes her as "She was not beautiful. She was red, and terrible, and red." 

[WindyNights]

I thought it was supposed to be Jon vs Dany but I can see it being this way. I just don't see Faegon every getting a dragon.

I believe it's just a reference to another Targaryen civil war.

I've always liked the idea of Dany on Drogon, Jon on Viserion, and Aegon on Rhaegal. I like the symbolism of Jon getting a white dragon like his white wolf, calling back to his Stark roots, and Aegon gets the dragon named for his father.

Also, on Mel's appearance -- remember that in the books, Mel is not canonically beautiful. Cressen describes her as "She was not beautiful. She was red, and terrible, and red."

Er, what?

She's actually supposed to be really beautiful. Cressen just hates her and that pre-disposes him to thinking she's awful.

Even Davos mentions she's beautiful as does Jon.

Edited March 15, 2016 by WindyNights

[WSmith84]

Thanks for posting that WindyNights. I love the History and Lore things that they do; it was great to hear Mark Addy as Robert again. I'd highly recommend you check them out shimpy; you can find them on youtube. You get to hear the perspective on various subjects from various characters, including Robert, Viserys, Stannis, Davos, Ducksauce etc. Stephen Dillane is incredible as Stannis in those, and as close to the book version as the show version ever gets.

[Delta1212]

It didn't occur to me until you brought up personal stakes, shimpy, but I've got a doozy of a personal connection to the whole secret illegitimate child thing that I don't think I'm quite comfortable sharing in detail until at least October since there's a book coming out (not mine), but it starts with a man calling my grandmother claiming to be her nephew who the parents had told everyone in the family had been stillborn 40ish years earlier, and that whole story is only a tangential catalyst to the bit that I'm actually referring to.

I have to laugh because aside from the royalty and mystical savior angle, a lot of the secret Targaryen stuff is kind of normalized by some of the things that have been going on with my family the last couple of years and I didn't fully recognize that until literally just now.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

That animated short was a blast, thank you so much for sharing it.  One of the saddest things to come out of the GoT years is the fact that Jack Gleeson decided to quit acting, even that last little bit of the short film has great Joffrey flourish.   It was really fun to hear the various actors again in their roles.   It was so funny to meet Visery in the books and he's unrelenting awful, whereas Lloyd actually did add something to him that made him oddly pitiable. 

 

Also, I took Cressen's "she was not beautiful, she was terrible" to be refuting her beauty, because she was terrible.  As in: others claimed she was beautiful, but she was not beautiful, she was terrible.  Something terrible can never be beautiful to someone Cressen.  

[Terra Nova]

That small video, short as it was, was a very good retelling of The Princess and the Queen, though it left out the badassery of the Northener and Riverlander (the tableaux vivants, Roddy the Ruin and the Winter Wolves, I mean, it is a perfect name for a power metal band). Mark Addy and Brendan Gleeson were perfect *.*

And the worst thing about the first Dance is seeing how decent people either horribly died or became monsters. Like the fourth dragonseed whose death was not told in the video.

And the utter destruction dragons caused to Westeros, it's like bombing Dresden with napalm on top of that.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

Plus, throughout the books it has been repeated over and over, "there is no one so accursed as the kinslayer" and that video is essentially, "Look!  Kinslaying Palooza!"  

[Terra Nova]

Kinslaying, Kingslaying, breaching of guest rights, killing of children (the little one, the one doomed to death by his mom, was later

ripped to pieces by a frenzied mob. The surviving daughter of Aegon was autistic and few years later conveniently fell to her death from her window, only to survive for half an hour impaled on the spikes of the moat

), everything. Criston Cole slitting the throat of the poor old man trying to defend Rhaenyra's claim. It was during the first stages of the war that the two Kingsguard twins, Arryk and Erryk, killed each other.

There was also the incredibly interesting detail of Rhaenyra being pregnant when she learned of her brother's betrayal, and

she was so furious to enter labour, only to, rumors say, give birth to a dead girl with a hole in place of the heart and a scaly skin, complete with stubby tail. Of course, it may be untrue, but it's speculation fodder!

 

That's why I said some weeks ago that the two short stories can be quite a depressing reading: there are very few sparkles of human decency. Like, the crazy Targ with the gem in his missing eye was reduced like that by Lucerys during a brawl, after breaking the kid's nose (that's why he was so bent on killing him at Storm's End).

Edited March 16, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

There's also the immediate aftermath of the Dance, known as the Hour of the Wolf:

 

 

As mentioned in the video, Winterfell, ruled by Lord Cregan Stark, pledged themselves to the Blacks' cause. They did so in exchange for a Targaryen marriage (that they never received) that was known as the Pact of Ice and Fire. Due to the fact that the war took place in Autumn, the North was busy preparing for the Winter ahead and thus only sent soldiers towards the end of the war (sans the Winter Wolves). When Aegon II was found poisoned, Cregan took the city of King's Landing and wanted to punish those who had supported the Greens, only to find that Corlys Velaryon had already sued for peace in the name of Aegon III (Rhaenyra's son). Reluctantly, Cregan agreed, but he would not let the murder of Aegon II go unpunished (even though he himself had been fighting against him). He arrested 22 men, including Corlys, and Aegon III named Cregan his Hand of the King. Aegon was persuaded to restore Corlys to his office and Cregan Stark was married to 'Black Aly' Blackwood. 19 of the accused took the black, while 2 chose execution. Cregan was only hand for a day; after administering his justice, he resigned his post and headed back North (a Stark with some sense, it seems) though many of his men chose to remain South. His time as Hand was known as 'The Hour of the Wolf.'

 

[WSmith84]

Weirdly, especially for me, the most sympathetic characters of the Dance are probably the dragons. They were basically wiped out by that war, although maybe Sheepstealer (Nettles' dragon) and Cannibal (never claimed) survived.

[mac123x]

I think that people would be willing to accept Jon being legitimate if he ends up having a dragon to back up his claim. Kind of like how Rickon's direwolf will persuade people that he is in fact alive and should be the next Lord of Winterfell or King in the North. Also, who knows what sort of proof Howland Reed might have? Wasn't there speculation that there's proof in Lyanna's tomb? I can't recall where I read that. 

 

One theory I've seen (with little text to back it up) is that Rhaegar's distinctive silver harp is buried in Lyanna's tomb.  That might count as evidence (though not hard proof) towards R+L=J.  I'm not clear on how it counts towards R+L=J(legitimate)

[Lady S.]

One theory I've seen (with little text to back it up) is that Rhaegar's distinctive silver harp is buried in Lyanna's tomb.  That might count as evidence (though not hard proof) towards R+L=J.  I'm not clear on how it counts towards R+L=J(legitimate)

Little text to back it up is right, I really doubt that's what Jon's recurring crypt dreams were getting at. I'd like to think Lyanna was only concerned with her son's life and not also demanding a promise from Ned to honor the memory of her dead lover by burying a memento in a sacred Stark space.

[stillshimpy]

Lyanna was only concerned with her son's life and not also demanding a promise from Ned to honor the memory of her dead lover by burying a memento in a sacred Stark space.

 

Plus, Brandon and Rickard Stark ended up dead because of that relationship, so I don't think -- or at least I really hope she wouldn't -- Lyanna would ask Ned, with her dying breath to promise him to bury this proof his parentage in the Stark crypt....next to Brandon and Rickard's remains.  

 

Frankly, if Jon is Lyanna's son -- and whoever he is, I think it's sort of clear he isn't Ned's son, but he's a Stark of some description, so the options are limited -- Lyanna was already counting on Ned to be almost saintly in asking him to protect her son.   If she was with Rhaegar willingly then it becomes even more "Uh...huh....well, shit.  That takes some nerve" because the country's been to war over this, it's cost Ned most of his relatives and he's married to Brandon's leftover intended, in an initially chilly as ice relationship.  

 

I'm just saying, there has to be some limit to Lyanna Stark's self-involvement, right?  "Bury me with Rhaegar's harp" hopefully is far beyond those limits, because....damn, girl, that would take some nerve.. 

[WSmith84]

If anyone was wondering where Benjen was during the Rebellion:

 

 

Questioner: 'When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately?'

 

GRRM: 'It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned.'

 

GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen joined the NW. Him joining the NW so soon after the deaths of his family and Ned's return fuels speculation that Benjen played some part in the R+L affair; perhaps failure to deliver a message to his family, or some such.

 

[WindyNights]

Jon is Brandon's bastard with Ashara. Lyanna's son died with Lyanna.

Jon is Arthur Dayne and Lyanna's son. He will become the next Sword of the Morning.

Aerys raped Lyanna when Rhaegar brought her to court before heading to the Tower of Joy. Jon is their son

Jon is Ned and Lyanna's son. Ned is more like Jaime than we thought.

Jon is Brandon and Lyanna's son. Jaime was right about Brandon. He was more like him.

Jon is Benjen and Lyanna's son. That's why he joined the Night's Watch. He felt guilty after impregnating his sister which led to her death.

Edited March 17, 2016 by WindyNights

[Chris24601]

I'm just saying, there has to be some limit to Lyanna Stark's self-involvement, right?  "Bury me with Rhaegar's harp" hopefully is far beyond those limits, because....damn, girl, that would take some nerve.. 

On the opposite extreme there's Lyanna the Saint. Forcibly kidnapped, raped, impregnated and held captive by the agents of a prophesy obsessed prince and even though birthing that child killed her, she still begs her brother to protect and care for the child as if he were his own.

 

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle... a girl who jumped at the chance to run off with the handsome prince and then came to regret it dreadfully when the consequences of that act nearly destroyed her family and threw the entire realm into war and a Prince who thought he was fulfilling a prophesy but failed to account for all the consequences and thought the only way out was to win the conflict and then sort out the mess later and died in the process. That just seems far more fundamentally HUMAN than either other extreme.

 

As to what's in the crypts of Winterfell, my hunch is its something magical to do with the ancient Kings of Winter that dates back to the Long Night and either what actually caused it (i.e. what are the motives of the Others) or what actually ended it (i.e. the notion that it wasn't a simple military victory, but perhaps either a treaty or some sort of ancient spell that ended the threat of the Others).

 

If I were a betting man I'd guess that the deepest levels of the crypts lead to the source of Winterfell's hot springs and they are NOT a natural phenomena but some deep and primordial magic linked to Jon... perhaps the original Red Sword or the proof of some first union between Ice and Fire that ended the Long Night and that Jon will need to stop or at least mitigate the coming Armageddon.

[Ashara Payne]

This guy has some really out-there theories:

[stillshimpy]

Whoa, that was a little head-spinning and ultimately a tiny bit uncomfortable because of the weird "Now I'll talk about this author's personal life, because that's fair game, right?"   Er....uh....um.  Hmmmm.   

 

Those are are interesting theories, but if Ned went to Starfall for any ulterior motive, even if it was just "I need to deliver this sword and tell the girl I loved that I killed her brother....um....oopsies?"  he presumably got there and discovered something really, really unfortunate about what Brandon likely did on his way to marry Catelyn.  

Although, there is one thing, there's no saying that Barristan was right about Brandon and Ashara (and the "Stark" really does seem to indicate Brandon)...but someone knocked her up and if she'd just recently given birth, doesn't that mean she didn't get pregnant at the tournament at Harrenhall? 

 

Although I did nearly throw something at my computer screen over the "when did Brandon leave for the Night's Watch?"  media answer.  I guess I'll spoiler this

because oh. for. goodness. sake.  Isn't this story complicated enough?  I just assumed Benjen had pledged himself to the freaking Night's Watch prior to the rebellion.   If it was some kind of act of contrition, good grief, stay home, get married and help create the generation of Starks that was lost when Brandon died, you goof.  Or the ones that bit it when Lyanna died, you double goof.  

 

ETA:  Oh jeez, this has been a clickhole of bottomless proportions.  Some of these are wild theories, but the fan art is so fun on top of everything else :-)   The start of his multi-part Pink Letter Theory is sort of nuts but fun:  

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Ooooookay.  So that finally explained why in the world there is anyone out there who thinks Jon could be anything other than Lyanna's son, because that was confusing the hell out of me.  Jon had to come from somewhere.  There really aren't that many options.  He's not Ned's kid (pretty much that one is just off the table, it seems) and he has to be some description of Stark, because he looks like Arya. 

 

I mean, unless Arya is someone else's kid too, pretty much Jon is some description of Stark.  But that video is actually right, why does Edric Dayne not basically spit when saying Ned's name when Ned killed Arthur Dayne?  

 

It had struck me that whereas Ned thinks obsessively about the "Ned, promise me" and then never spares even one thought to Jon's mother, that it pretty much ruled out him having been Jon's father, but it did escape me that he doesn't actually think about Jon.  I just assumed that Martin was choosing not to approach that because he didn't want to point an even bigger Neon arrow at Jon, blinking out "that's not my kid!"

 

But even after reading about the "Oh...shit, Brandon boinked Ashara, eh?" seeming reveal ....It was not going to occur to me "So is Jon Brandon's son?"   I can see why Ned might keep that from Catelyn.  

 

I really don't know what to think about the theory that "what if Daenerys is Lyanna and Rhaegar's kid?" theory though.  For one thing, I don't know how readily Viserys would go along with that, although I suppose he wouldn't necessarily need to know. 

 

There are altogether too many parentage questions in this saga.  

 

Also, I started laughing my ass off when he pointed out that Howland Reed, who got his ass kicked by three teen squires, was suddenly able to help tear down towers and be one of only two survivors of the Tower of Joy.  

 

*mind...blown*

Edited March 18, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

Oh no, shimpy is sinking into the never ending crackpots. Someone help her up before she finds out about Jojen paste, Darkstar being the real Aegon and Westeros being a post-apocalyptic earth.

@shimp well some of those are official art rather than fans art. You should get the World of Ice and Fire next. Besides the cool stories in it, there's a lot of gorgeous official art in it.

Feast your eyes on Kid Tywin Lannister with Tytos Lannister for example:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/29e0c4b80ee8f92283609e7cabecddb9/tumblr_ndvus9uqtA1qmtv72o1_500.jpg

Looking very Joffrey-ish there, Tywin

Edited March 18, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Whoa, those are actually very well done!  

 

Well part of what is fun about this, is it really seems like Martin encourages this kind of speculation with some of the details he adds in.  Like Danaerys being conceived by Aerys and clawing her mother nearly to shreds in doing so, basically in a fit of (even more than usual) madness.   It is kind of "Oh jeez, man, so she was conceived on the last sexual encounter between her parents ever and that was a rape?  Yikes.  Harsh."  

 

But the entire tale is kind of littered with kids that had to come from somewhere, but whose stories are kind of "Eh? Oh...okay...maybe?  Or maybe no?" 

 

Plus the whole "Dany, the red door, and the lemon tree" thing.  I just....I don't know what the hell is going on, man! 

[WSmith84]

Well, it was 7 vs 3 at the TOJ. Not that surprising that the 7 emerged victorious. Really, it speaks to the skill of the KG that they killed so many.

 

Dany being the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna just makes me laugh: she's actually a.... secret Targaryen!

[WindyNights]

Here's Aegon the Conqueror: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/b/bc/Aegon_the_Conqueror.jpg/700px-Aegon_the_Conqueror.jpg

So pretty.

Rhaegar Targaryen:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/2/22/Rhaegar_twoiaf.jpg/320px-Rhaegar_twoiaf.jpg

Young Chris Hemsworth?

And the Tourney at Harrenhal featuring Ned, Brandon, Robert, Lyanna, Elia Martell, Oberyn etc:

http://direct.westeros.org/images/d/d7/PPRhaegarHarrenhalTourney.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/bb/9c/2d/bb9c2d177fc10ecf3a00da2c3fd14b56.jpg

I believe I also spot Varys in the back there.

@shimpy Yeah there's a ton of stuff. There's some speculation that Bloodraven skinchanged into Aerys so he could rape Rhaella and conceive Daenerys.

Remember from the House of the Undying: ": . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . "

[GertrudeDR]

Going back to the Melisandre discussion - I've always thought she had a glamour to hide tattoos, enhance her coloring, etc, but that she herself was mainly as she presents herself - a beautiful woman in her prime. I'm of the mind that she is fire-resurrected, just as Berric, Cat, Moqorro, possibly Vic and presumably Jon. Berric had been brought back too many times after numerous bodily wounds and traumatic deaths. Cat was brought back after having her mind snap and her decomposing body left to rot for several days. That accounts for their drastic personality change/loss of self.

 

So what would a fire-resurrection look like in the best of circumstances? A priest willingly going through a rite to gain power. Not dissimilar to the Drowned God's approach, actually. What is dead can never die. I find it an interesting comparison.

 

So if Jon comes back, his body is mostly fine - no head wound. He has a traumatic shock that will no doubt affect him, but he doesn't snap. I imagine it would change his outlook about as much as if the assassination attempt had failed and Jon was able to be nursed back to health. There will be an additional adjustment because of coming to grips that he is not actually dead and how that came about, but mainly I think Jon will still be very recognizable as Jon, just with a few issues and a new resolve. The more important question I have, is how does this affect him long-term physically? Will he be like Mel and Moqorro - doesn't need food, doesn't age, etc. Is this ritual different than what the priests have gone through? I can't imagine that a resurrection just puts him on a path to live out the rest of his life as normal. This is the main reason I don't see Jon as taking a larger part in the kingdom at large. I don't think he will be King, or Dany's consort or anything like that. He's essentially a dead man walking, and that's gonna freak people out. I see him dying a big-ass hero's death without another resurrection, or he ends his days a loner and becomes one of the legends people talk about but don't really believe. Eat your peas or Jon Snow will have Ghost drag you away to live with the grumpkins and snarks.

 

Also about Benjen

I have always liked the theory that he knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar and something went terribly wrong. He was supposed to deliver a message once Lyanna was far enough ahead of her family, but things went pear-shaped a lot faster than they expected - something like that. That he joined the watch out of guilt or to help keep the secret by not reacting to Jon growing up, something, whatever. Doesn't really matter. Ned was married and had his heir, so I don't think he had a duty to stick around. Also, remember, he was pretty young at the time too, and kids don't always make the best decisions (see: his sister) Lyanna was only 16 or 17, right? Benjen was younger. So him talking to Jon about the Wall has a little extra pathos. It also explains why Benjen had to be kept out of the story for so long because I refuse to believe he isn't coming back at some point. Howland is a good bet to spill the beans, but for a long time I've favored Benjen.

Edited March 18, 2016 by GertrudeDR

[WSmith84]

Personally, I think the lemon tree and red door signify either:

 

- Dany and Viserys grew up in a house owned by the Sealord: a man definitely rich enough to own a lemon tree. He has a freaking dinosaur in his menagerie for Heaven's sake; he can afford citrus trees. Given that a Sealord signed the marriage pact between Arianne and Viserys, it seems possible. Also, we know that Ser Darry died of a disease; perhaps the Sealord died of the same thing and the new Sealord didn't want the Targaryen children there.

 

- Dany is mixing up her young memories to form an idealised home. Maybe there never was a house with a red door and a lemon tree that they lived in with Ser Darry; maybe they're just elements that Dany remembers fondly and has merged to form the home she never truly had.

[WSmith84]

On Jon; personally I hope he and Mel don't become lovers. One of the things I admired about Jon was that he was very aware that he should under no circumstances involve himself with Mel. Which of course they completely removed in the show (season 5)

and the only thing stopping him from getting it on with Mel was his love for Ygritte.

 

Mel is actually one of those characters that got really cheated by the show. She's so flat and one-dimensional with no real nuance, as opposed to her book counterpart.

[WindyNights]

Going back to the Melisandre discussion - I've always thought she had a glamour to hide tattoos, enhance her coloring, etc, but that she herself was mainly as she presents herself - a beautiful woman in her prime. I'm of the mind that she is fire-resurrected, just as Berric, Cat, Moqorro, possibly Vic and presumably Jon. Berric had been brought back too many times after numerous bodily wounds and traumatic deaths. Cat was brought back after having her mind snap and her decomposing body left to rot for several days. That accounts for their drastic personality change/loss of self.

So what would a fire-resurrection look like in the best of circumstances? A priest willingly going through a rite to gain power. Not dissimilar to the Drowned God's approach, actually. What is dead can never die. I find it an interesting comparison.

So if Jon comes back, his body is mostly fine - no head wound. He has a traumatic shock that will no doubt affect him, but he doesn't snap. I imagine it would change his outlook about as much as if the assassination attempt had failed and Jon was able to be nursed back to health. There will be an additional adjustment because of coming to grips that he is not actually dead and how that came about, but mainly I think Jon will still be very recognizable as Jon, just with a few issues and a new resolve. The more important question I have, is how does this affect him long-term physically? Will he be like Mel and Moqorro - doesn't need food, doesn't age, etc. Is this ritual different than what the priests have gone through? I can't imagine that a resurrection just puts him on a path to live out the rest of his life as normal. This is the main reason I don't see Jon as taking a larger part in the kingdom at large. I don't think he will be King, or Dany's consort or anything like that. He's essentially a dead man walking, and that's gonna freak people out. I see him dying a big-ass hero's death without another resurrection, or he ends his days a loner and becomes one of the legends people talk about but don't really believe. Eat your peas or Jon Snow will have Ghost drag you away to live with the grumpkins and snarks.

Jon's actually got a second hurdle on this. Unlike the others he's warged into a wolf permanently. The longer he stays in Ghost the more wolfish he becomes. If GRRM wasn't going to utilize that aspect in a major way them he wouldn't have included it.

You also have to take into account Jon's parallel, Daenerys, who is going all Fire and Blood on people.

Now look at this story's idea of the prophecized hero. AA is someone who could sacrifice his most precious loved one for the greater good. That's where Jon has to get at and where he's most definitely not at right now.

Edited March 18, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Oh I don't think the show could even touch any of Jon's more out-there parenting theories, that's for sure.  Trailer

plus they're going to depict the Tower of Joy and presumably since none of the other characters even exist -- Aegan, Ashara, etc. -- in the show it as to reveal that Jon is Lyanna's son.

 

In the book though, the reason I thought it would be super cool if Jon is actually Brandon's son is Brandon should have been the lord of Winterfell.  As to Benjen not needing to stick around because Ned already had a kid, well it's actually not the best way to keep a family going, particularly when there's only one generation producing new Starks, with half his siblings dead, Benjen really should have taken a wife and gotten busy making extra Starks to strengthen his family's numbers.  However he didn't.  Who knows, maybe he was gay and simply didn't want to marry?  

 

In the books there kind of needs to be a point to Lady Dustin's massive overshare about Brandon Stark and his entirely alarming pillow talk though.   It does sort of crack me up that poor Ned might have been traveling hither and yon, collecting the various progeny of his idiot siblings and trying to figure out what to do with them.  "Oh shit, another one?? Okay, Ashara, you take this one from the Tower of Joy and head elsewhere with him (Aegon perhaps?) , you know Jon Connington, go to him.  I'll take Brandon's son home to Winterfell and I won't tell Catelyn that Brandon had been shtupping you since Harrenhal and again in King's Landing, good gods, don't tell Catelyn anything...and I am totally shipping Ben off to The Wall before he can knock up a Martell or a Tyrell or a freaking soothsayer on top of this clusterfuck."  

Edited March 18, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

I bet Ned was bloody tired of keeping his siblings' secrets. I can just imagine it:

 

Benjen: Hey, uh, Ned, listen. I have this really big secret and I need to ask you-

 

Ned: Nope, not happening. Whatever it is, keep it to yourself. I don't care if you've discovered the secret to eternal life or that we really do live inside the eye of a blue-eyed giant. Just, no.

 

Benjen: ...Who pissed on your breakfast? Fine, I'm off to the Wall.

[WindyNights]

Crackpot: Ned doesn't actually have any kids. The Tully-Starks are all Benjen's bastards with Cat.

Eddard Stark is truly the best uncle in fiction.

[stillshimpy]

Benjen to Ned:  I have to tell you something that mother told me before she died....

Ned:  As long as it isn't that you're actually the illegitimate son of some Lannister or something then....Oh fuck, for real? 

Benjen:  Not a Lannister,  Hoster Tully and mom apparently...

Ned:  Oh boy, I'm going to be in the godswood for a really long time, praying to all sorts of gods to keep my Lady Wife in the damned dark.  So you're my brother and you're my wife's brother?  I just...can't....

Benjen:  When I told Lyanna she screamed something about the death of honor and mom being a hypocrite and then she....

Ned: Please do not say what I think you're about to say....

Ben:  He was pretty dreamy for a harp player, Ned, you can't really blame her. 

 

*Ned signs off on another year of celibacy as his wife frosts him out for letting his younger brother run off to the Wall, despite family obligations* 

 

Ned's pants to Ned's head:  Welcome to the Clan of the Hand for another full year, Ned.  

Ned:  I hope I'm not actually married to my sister.  

[WindyNights]

Benjen to Ned: I have to tell you something that mother told me before she died....

Ned: As long as it isn't that you're actually the illegitimate son of some Lannister or something then....Oh fuck, for real?

Benjen: Not a Lannister, Hoster Tully and mom apparently...

Ned: Oh boy, I'm going to be in the godswood for a really long time, praying to all sorts of gods to keep my Lady Wife in the damned dark. So you're my brother and you're my wife's brother? I just...can't....

Benjen: When I told Lyanna she screamed something about the death of honor and mom being a hypocrite and then she....

Ned: Please do not say what I think you're about to say....

Ben: He was pretty dreamy for a harp player, Ned, you can't really blame her.

*Ned signs off on another year of celibacy as his wife frosts him out for letting his younger brother run off to the Wall, despite family obligations*

Ned's pants to Ned's head: Welcome to the Clan of the Hand for another full year, Ned.

Ned: I hope I'm not actually married to my sister.

Scarily plausible by the way. Ned's mom was a Stark so the father need not be a Stark for the kids to look like one.

The seed is weak but the egg is strong.

[Alayne Stone]

Shimpy, you will have to check out the Heresy threads on Westeros.org sometime when you are feeling very bored. So much crackpot there.

 

Some of which has been verified (sort of) by the show ... if we can take the show for anything (i.e. Craster's sons being the white walkers). That had been a theory they'd been tossing around for years before it happened in the show apparently.

 

More fun parentage crackpot: I think there's a theory running around that Meera or/and Jojen are the secret children of Howland Reed and ... Ashara of all people.

 

And I wholeheartedly agree that Mel got shafted in the show. Pretty much all of Team Dragonstone, unfortunately. Did anyone else see Stephen Dillaine's newest interview, btw? It's hilarious. He basically admits that the show made no sense to him and was really weird to work on and that he basically just did it for the money. Even Stannis's actor is a man of duty first and foremost, closer to book Stannis than D&D's written version for the show.

 

Trailer spoilers:

We may finally get a more nuanced Mel if that short crisis of faith scene in the trailer is an indication of anything. Sadly I feel like it's too little, too late at this point.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[GertrudeDR]

Jon's actually got a second hurdle on this. Unlike the others he's warged into a wolf permanently. The longer he stays in Ghost the more wolfish he becomes. If GRRM wasn't going to utilize that aspect in a major way them he wouldn't have included it.

You also have to take into account Jon's parallel, Daenerys, who is going all Fire and Blood on people.

Point. I have thought about this before, but it didn't reflect in my recent post. I just think that Jon is going to be more himself than Cat or Berric would have us think. I don't think Jon will spend a significant time inside his wolf. As a comparison, Bran spent long periods of time in Summer and it hasn't been reflected in his personality to a large degree that we can see. I would estimate (off the top of my head) that there's been stretches of Bran in Summer for  a day or two. The Reeds are very worried about him and that he's not eating. He's done this several times. So unless Jon spends upwards of a week or more in Ghost, I am not particularly worried about him getting too wolfified. He's already familiar with Ghost's mind, but it's true that knowing there's no way to escape Ghost (that he knows about) might speed up the panic and giving in to the animal. There will be some repercussions, obviously, but I don't think the wolf part will be the main problem.

 

I still think that him being a walking zombie is going to be the thing that freaks out most people, not any change in personality. I don't think Jon will reject his duty to the Night's Watch, I think they will reject him. OK, that was obvious, they tried to kill him. Let me re-phrase - Jon will still think that he has a duty to the Night's Watch and will continue in doing what he thinks needs doing, killing Ramsey. The Night's Watch, even those loyal to Jon, will not see him as the Lord Commander anymore because they will be scared of him at some level and they will exercise the option of, 'Well, hey, you died. Your vows are til death, so let's call it good."

 

About Jon sacrificing his most beloved to become AA, that scares me and I don't like to think about it. His dearest relationship is Ghost, possibly Arya if she gets in position and both of those tear me apart.

 

And sure, Benjen probably should have settled down quietly somewhere and raised some Stark cousins, but I'm willing to let it slide because - drama! It makes for a good story :)

 

I would say Mel in the books wasn't very nuanced until we got to see inside her head. Sure, there was a little more, but that's the case with everyone, really. My favorite Mel scene was her in the bath with Selyse. She radiated power and confidence, so much so that she was completely honest with Selyse about using tricks and potions to lead other people to the truth. To me that was her most honest moment in the show and there was no ego or hidden agenda in that scene. She just really is a true believer who believes the ends justifies the means. Doesn't make her likable, but it is a good facet of her personality to showcase.

Edited March 18, 2016 by GertrudeDR