Elle Greenaway: There's Nothing She'd Rather Do Than Put the Bastards Away

[Droogie]

Wasn't she awesome? [/sigh]

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Thanks, Cobalt stargazer, for sharing such a nice video.

Criminal minds was then such an awesome, outstanding tv show, and this video highlight so many great memories storaged in my mind...

 

You are quite welcome, MCatry, I was surprised and pleased to find it and bring it here.

[amensisterfriend]

I've been rewatching both S1-S2 of CM for the zillionth time and Buffy (for only the fourth or fifth time!), and now I can't stop thinking of Elle as CM's Faith: the edgy, snarky, impulsive, tough, slightly wild, 'street smart' one who "goes rogue" but is ultimately still redeemable. 

[amensisterfriend]

---Does anyone know whether Elle has/had any siblings? And do we know anything about her relationship with her mom? Thanks in advance! 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

---Does anyone know whether Elle has/had any siblings? And do we know anything about her relationship with her mom? Thanks in advance! 

 

It was never explicitly stated if Elle had any brothers or sisters, but in the first part of The Fisher King when Reid is leaving the bullpen, Derek asks her if she thinks Spencer looks okay, and she says something like, "He looks about the way I would look if I was about to spend time with my family." As far as her mother goes, it's mentioned in a couple of fanfics I've read that her mom didn't like it that she decided to become a law enforcement officer, which IMO makes sense considering that her father was killed in the line of duty, but the state of their relationship was never actually explored or spelled out on the show except in limited detail.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Cobalt Stargazer

[smoker]

Yes, Elle resigned rather than go for the evaluation Hotch made mandatory. He made it clear that if he had actual evidence of what she had done, he would have fired her on the spot and prosecuted her, so, that's why I say she was "ruined." Her career in the federal government was ruined, although, yes, she could go back to local law enforcement or get her PI license. Most local cops would look askance at her resignation, I think, and she wouldn't be able to rise to detective.

I would love her working as a PI  and maybe bringing some case to the BAU hehe

However, one of the things has been eating me over the seasons is Hotch's indulgence with Morgan (Tim Curry's character, Doyle, his coach), Prentiss (Doyle and bla bla bla) and Rossi (Gideon's killer) or Kate (lying suspects being a fbi agent); after he told Elle he would have her arrested if he'd got some evidence and push her out of the team. Moreover they didn't show her any support while she was off (ok, Lola G. was leaving and they didn't pay a lot of attention)

I don't like when they manipulate a suicide by cop just to make a murder legal. But Hotch bieng biassed about it goes under my skin like a poison. He was close to Elle, his team was together for 3 years when the show started...

[MCatry]

I would love her working as a PI  and maybe bringing some case to the BAU hehe

However, one of the things has been eating me over the seasons is Hotch's indulgence with Morgan (Tim Curry's character, Doyle, his coach), Prentiss (Doyle and bla bla bla) and Rossi (Gideon's killer) or Kate (lying suspects being a fbi agent); after he told Elle he would have her arrested if he'd got some evidence and push her out of the team. Moreover they didn't show her any support while she was off (ok, Lola G. was leaving and they didn't pay a lot of attention)

I don't like when they manipulate a suicide by cop just to make a murder legal. But Hotch bieng biassed about it goes under my skin like a poison. He was close to Elle, his team was together for 3 years when the show started...

I agree with you.

Only a quick note: Elle actually was starting at the BAU when the show started, so she was not in the team Hotch had for the last three years back in those days. Then there's this other canon info about Garcia not being part of the team when Morgan called Gomez. When did JJ started is unclear. The canon info on the early days of both Morgan and Reid seem to point out that Morgan came first, then Reid, and no JJ on the radar. Do you remember anything about that?

[smoker]

I agree with you.

Only a quick note: Elle actually was starting at the BAU when the show started, so she was not in the team Hotch had for the last three years back in those days. Then there's this other canon info about Garcia not being part of the team when Morgan called Gomez. When did JJ started is unclear. The canon info on the early days of both Morgan and Reid seem to point out that Morgan came first, then Reid, and no JJ on the radar. Do you remember anything about that?

Sorry I didnt post my comment here but I'm not pretty good with my ipod :(

Edited May 19, 2015 by smoker

[smoker]

I didnt remember about Elle not being there in those first years actually. I thought she had joined the team with Reid and Morgan, more or less.

I do know they manipulated Garcia's past. The way she joined the fbi and the team

She was arrested and made a deal with the fbi and after that I understood she joined the BAU as a tech after an interview with Hotch

they changed that not long ago. Sending Morgan and Hotch to recruit her. So Morgan was already on the team thats for sure. And they walked the line with tabula rassa" timeline where it was supposed to be Morgan and Garcia first meeting...

Sorry, I couldnt bring anything about JJ. It's interesting. She was so so young. Being smart and pretty made a lot but now I'm curious too

[ForeverAlone]

Elle wasn't actually a part of the BAU until the second episode. In the pilot, she is working in the Seattle field office and wants to apply to the BAU. So she would not have joined the team until 2005. Penelope joined the team sometime in 2004 and Reid and Morgan were already there. I want to say Reid joined the FBI in late 2003 or sometime earlier in 2004. He was still pretty green in the Tabula Rasa flashbacks. I have zero clue about JJ, but I don't recall her in the Tabula Rasa flashbacks.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Elle wasn't actually a part of the BAU until the second episode. In the pilot, she is working in the Seattle field office and wants to apply to the BAU. So she would not have joined the team until 2005.

 

I'm a little confused. In Extreme Aggressor, Elle knocked on Richard Slessman's door saying that she'd found her front door wide open, and his grandmother or whatever sent Richard with her to check things out. Then the SWAT guys showed up, handcuffed him, and took him away. I thought she was an agent, but was she really just a probie at the time?

[normasm]

Yeah, CoStar, remember her taking Morgan aside and basically grilling him on what she had to do to get the open position on the team? She was from NY, I always assumed she was an FBI agent in sex crimes who moved to Washington to get into BAU.

[smoker]

But if she was working in Seatle field office maybe she had met Hotch already

[ForeverAlone]

Elle had been in the FBI for a while and she had been at the Seattle field office for at least three years prior to her joining the BAU, because she had the highest solve rate for three years' running (per JJ). Elle was definitely not a newbie.

[normasm]

She was a newb to the BAU

[zannej]

I will say that maybe what happened with Elle softened Hotch up a bit in terms of how he dealt with the team. Or maybe his own experiences with Foyet made him grant a bit more leeway. Morgan's deal with his abuser was completely different when they first had it, so I don't think that counts. Realistically, I realize that the choices in how Hotch dealt with the team was because of the change in writers and the newer writers seemed to think it was OK for the team members to do certain things, so they had Hotch accept it without doing anything about it. Also, Kate didn't directly lie-- she used the "what if I told you" ruse. It's like when Morgan brought in an empty box that he said contained the case files to intimidate someone-- its part of normal accepted procedures.

 

I really wish there was some chance of Elle coming back for a cameo at least, but there were conflicts with certain cast members and I don't know if they would be willing to work with her again.

[normasm]

Zannej, i never heard that there were conflicts between Lola and anyone in the cast. Who was it? I just thought she quit because she wanted to go back to NY.

[smoker]

I will say that maybe what happened with Elle softened Hotch up a bit in terms of how he dealt with the team. Or maybe his own experiences with Foyet made him grant a bit more leeway. Morgan's deal with his abuser was completely different when they first had it, so I don't think that counts. Realistically, I realize that the choices in how Hotch dealt with the team was because of the change in writers and the newer writers seemed to think it was OK for the team members to do certain things, so they had Hotch accept it without doing anything about it. Also, Kate didn't directly lie-- she used the "what if I told you" ruse. It's like when Morgan brought in an empty box that he said contained the case files to intimidate someone-- its part of normal accepted procedures.

I can see what happened with Elle and "Foyet" affecting Hotch' severity.

But I can't agree with Morgan and the lying thing.

I mean, your arguments are solid and to some extent I can see their logic, but Morgan conspired to commit murder, and as much as this sounds hypocritical, it's low the way he did it, even if that man deserved being killed I would have respected Morgan more if he had murdered him with his bare hands. Yes, I dislike Morgan and I'm that biassed.

About the lying thing, I got a sensitive spot there because of The closer. And it must be really difficult not being able to play (lie) a suspect, they are butchering a lot of strategies with that rule, but if you can't lie, you can't lie and it's really thin ice go there and pretending... what if the case ends in court...Hotch's a prosecutor, I miss when he used that to tie up things.

Edited May 20, 2015 by smoker

[zannej]

smoker, I'm confused about what you're saying about Morgan. When are you saying he lied? and when did he murder someone? I think we might be thinking about different episodes/incidents.

[smoker]

smoker, I'm confused about what you're saying about Morgan. When are you saying he lied? and when did he murder someone? I think we might be thinking about different episodes/incidents.

sorry if I didn't explain things well. Kate was the one lying and Morgan was more than ok with it, it was in the begining of the season I don't remember the episode, I would have to check it up. I have became pretty sensitive about it after 7 season with Brenda Johnson

about Derek, I am talking about the last episode with Carl Buford, the one he was in jail. not long ago

Morgan set things up (his public statement)  so Buford was murdered in jail, he knew Buford would be murdered and even if that man deserved it, it was wrong.

 

I didn't like Derek and Rossi forcing a suicide by cop to murder either, Derek in 6x01 and Rossi in Nelson's Sparrow. It was so evident, Derek was even worse than Rossi. I think is unfair, they could make their revenge legit. there is not moral ground let to chase a vigilante after that.

 

I hope I explain it better :)

 

[Saje]

I understand your point, smoker, I just don't agree. Your language skills are fine, it's the point I find arguable.

 

To each his own though.

[smoker]

Firstly of all thank you!  I'm glad I could explain my thoughts, foreign grammar can be very tricky.

And yes, of course all of us got our point of view and that's the interesting thing, how different we see plots and acting and continuity... Besides, I'm aware I'm a bit biassed (ok, a lot) because I don't like Morgan and I would be more tolerant toward another character.

 

Hotch made a shot in 1x17, they were in NY, and it was unnecessary, and I know I didn't care at the time, now, after rewatching, I'd like he didn't have done that.

Edited May 21, 2015 by smoker

[zannej]

Smoker, who is Brenda Johnson? (oh wait.. is that the Closer bitch? cant' stand her-- does she lie to suspects? I don't watch the show)

 

In regards to Kate "lying", it is something that is done in law enforcement where it is not actually a lie, but it is still deceptive. By saying "What if I told you that...." she was establishing a hypothetical situation. So technically she was not actually lying to him, but she was giving him the impression that what she was saying was true. FBI agents are not allowed to state something as fact when it is not true (at least they are not supposed to). So they use creative ways to almost lie. Generally that trick would only work with someone who was actually guilty-- a person who wasn't guilty would be more likely to say "If you told me that, then you'd be lying." Its a bit of an underhanded technique but it is employed often by law enforcement. Cops are allowed to flat out lie and claim they have evidence that they don't actually have in an attempt to elicit a confession. That's why its always important to know your rights and to know what tactics cops will use so you won't fall for any BS if they try to railroad you when you're innocent.

 

As for Morgan, I don't think he intended to get Carl murdered. His intention was to do something for the greater good by putting the info out there that he'd been the victim of sexual abuse and he was trying to encourage other victims to come forward. It's something that has actually helped some victims in the past to find the courage to open up. He was visibly upset when he heard that Buford was murdered.

 

I think in earlier seasons, Hotch might not have been OK with Rossi goading the guy into taking the gun to justify killing him. Technically what he did is legal, but its not really ethical or moral-- although that sort of thing happens when a person kills a law enforcement agent. If the guy hadn't killed Gideon, I wonder if Hotch would have let it slide. I'm not a fan of the team doing things like that and I think it was bad writing. The guy should have been made to suffer in prison and feel what it was like to be trapped the way his victims did. Killing him was not the best way to do it. So I disagree with the writers' choice there. But I think Erica thought it would be "cool". Personally, I think it would have been interesting if a shot rang out and the guy died in front of Rossi with nobody knowing who fired the shot (if they had to have him die).

 

Your English is fine. I know that English grammar is challenging even to native speakers.

[smoker]

yes! the closer bitch hahaha, she lied all the time
I enjoyed the show as a whole but I couldn't stand her at the end

[normasm]

Smoker, who is Brenda Johnson? (oh wait.. is that the Closer bitch? cant' stand her-- does she lie to suspects? I don't watch the show)

 

In regards to Kate "lying", it is something that is done in law enforcement where it is not actually a lie, but it is still deceptive. By saying "What if I told you that...." she was establishing a hypothetical situation. So technically she was not actually lying to him, but she was giving him the impression that what she was saying was true. FBI agents are not allowed to state something as fact when it is not true (at least they are not supposed to). So they use creative ways to almost lie. Generally that trick would only work with someone who was actually guilty-- a person who wasn't guilty would be more likely to say "If you told me that, then you'd be lying." Its a bit of an underhanded technique but it is employed often by law enforcement. Cops are allowed to flat out lie and claim they have evidence that they don't actually have in an attempt to elicit a confession. That's why its always important to know your rights and to know what tactics cops will use so you won't fall for any BS if they try to railroad you when you're innocent.

 

As for Morgan, I don't think he intended to get Carl murdered. His intention was to do something for the greater good by putting the info out there that he'd been the victim of sexual abuse and he was trying to encourage other victims to come forward. It's something that has actually helped some victims in the past to find the courage to open up. He was visibly upset when he heard that Buford was murdered.

 

I think in earlier seasons, Hotch might not have been OK with Rossi goading the guy into taking the gun to justify killing him. Technically what he did is legal, but its not really ethical or moral-- although that sort of thing happens when a person kills a law enforcement agent. If the guy hadn't killed Gideon, I wonder if Hotch would have let it slide. I'm not a fan of the team doing things like that and I think it was bad writing. The guy should have been made to suffer in prison and feel what it was like to be trapped the way his victims did. Killing him was not the best way to do it. So I disagree with the writers' choice there. But I think Erica thought it would be "cool". Personally, I think it would have been interesting if a shot rang out and the guy died in front of Rossi with nobody knowing who fired the shot (if they had to have him die).

 

Your English is fine. I know that English grammar is challenging even to native speakers.

 

I don't think Hotch was OK with what Rossi did at all, but he didn't witness it, so he couldn't have proved it anyway. I think at the very least, the real Hotch would pull Rossi aside and tell him, "I don't want to know what happened, but if what i think happened happened, I don't condone it at all." And he would leave it at that. And the real Rossi would not say a word, unless it was, "Understood."

 

Plus, smoker, yes, your English is fine.

[smoker]

FBI agents are not allowed to state something as fact when it is not true (at least they are not supposed to)

Cops are allowed to flat out lie and claim they have evidence that they don't actually have in an attempt to elicit a confession. 

 

zannej, thank you for clarifying the difference between both strategies.

 

Agree about Old Hotch and the writers too, an arrest would have honnored Gideon more.

 

 

I don't think Hotch was OK with what Rossi did at all, but he didn't witness it, so he couldn't have proved it anyway. I think at the very least, the real Hotch would pull Rossi aside and tell him, "I don't want to know what happened, but if what i think happened happened, I don't condone it at all." And he would leave it at that. And the real Rossi would not say a word, unless it was, "Understood."

 

thank you normasm!

 

so many things have happened after "Elle", both in a realistic way and out of character, I just don't know what to think about Hotch anymore

 

Although, the worst episode to me it's not any of these but season 6 premiere, in that episode I started to dislike Morgan, I think writers made him look really bad even if they wanted to make him look like a hero.

Have any of you watched The Sopranos? there is this episode in season 3 "employee of the month", writers did a great job there explaining how hard it is to keep hold of ethic and moral.

Edited May 22, 2015 by smoker

[zannej]

smoker, no problem. I personally really dislike it when police lie to suspects to claim they have evidence. The reason the FBI agents are not allowed to do the same is because they are considered to be more of an authority and if they say they have something, people may think that the FBI fabricated evidence and that they are going to be railroaded/framed and that they have to confess or make a deal because they are intimidated. The cops are not considered as intimidating. There was actually a man with the surname Reid who came up with a lot of interrogation techniques and I've read articles about what they determined was ethical. IIRC, there was a closer episode where the bitch actually told someone that what they said would not be used against them in court-- which is NOT allowed. A person has to know their rights and to tell them they have immunity when they don't is a violation of those rights. I never liked the main character on that because of her fake accent and stupid facial expressions. I liked the supporting cast but despised her. I liked the actress in other things though. 

 

If you compare what Rossi did to what Elle did, Hotch didn't see what happened and he didn't know for certain that Elle just murdered Lee, but he suspected it. But I think he knew that Rossi would have done something to make sure that the shoot was techically legal. And the guy Elle killed was a rapist but not a murderer-- he didn't want his victims to die. Plus, I think they had his DNA so it was only a matter of time before they caught him. And Elle was the one who messed up the sting in the first place. With Gideon's killer, he took someone the team cared about. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I found when it comes to law enforcement agents, they tend to be a bit more loose with the law when it comes to cop killers. Someone who murders a law enforcement agent is reviled and often ends up dead before trial. Rossi is from more of the oldschool attitude where a rat like that should be put down. If you look back on the FBI's history, there was a time when they just started shooting at a mobster without giving him a chance to surrender and innocent civilians were killed. It used to be considered ok to kill criminals. Nowadays, attitudes have changed and its not as socially acceptable. I do think that it was a disservice to Gideon because he would not have approved of what Rossi did. But I think the current writers seem to think that its "cool' and therefore ok to do that. They also think its ok to rough up suspects and enter places without a warrant.

I think if Elle's story had been written by the current writers, Elle would have been getting high-fives from team members in the bullpen and Hotch would have just looked the other way.

[normasm]

smoker, no problem. I personally really dislike it when police lie to suspects to claim they have evidence. The reason the FBI agents are not allowed to do the same is because they are considered to be more of an authority and if they say they have something, people may think that the FBI fabricated evidence and that they are going to be railroaded/framed and that they have to confess or make a deal because they are intimidated. The cops are not considered as intimidating. There was actually a man with the surname Reid who came up with a lot of interrogation techniques and I've read articles about what they determined was ethical. IIRC, there was a closer episode where the bitch actually told someone that what they said would not be used against them in court-- which is NOT allowed. A person has to know their rights and to tell them they have immunity when they don't is a violation of those rights. I never liked the main character on that because of her fake accent and stupid facial expressions. I liked the supporting cast but despised her. I liked the actress in other things though. 

 

If you compare what Rossi did to what Elle did, Hotch didn't see what happened and he didn't know for certain that Elle just murdered Lee, but he suspected it. But I think he knew that Rossi would have done something to make sure that the shoot was techically legal. And the guy Elle killed was a rapist but not a murderer-- he didn't want his victims to die. Plus, I think they had his DNA so it was only a matter of time before they caught him. And Elle was the one who messed up the sting in the first place. With Gideon's killer, he took someone the team cared about. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I found when it comes to law enforcement agents, they tend to be a bit more loose with the law when it comes to cop killers. Someone who murders a law enforcement agent is reviled and often ends up dead before trial. Rossi is from more of the oldschool attitude where a rat like that should be put down. If you look back on the FBI's history, there was a time when they just started shooting at a mobster without giving him a chance to surrender and innocent civilians were killed. It used to be considered ok to kill criminals. Nowadays, attitudes have changed and its not as socially acceptable. I do think that it was a disservice to Gideon because he would not have approved of what Rossi did. But I think the current writers seem to think that its "cool' and therefore ok to do that. They also think its ok to rough up suspects and enter places without a warrant.

I think if Elle's story had been written by the current writers, Elle would have been getting high-fives from team members in the bullpen and Hotch would have just looked the other way.

Yes, this. Or these...

[smoker]

smoker, no problem. I personally really dislike it when police lie to suspects to claim they have evidence. The reason the FBI agents are not allowed to do the same is because they are considered to be more of an authority and if they say they have something, people may think that the FBI fabricated evidence and that they are going to be railroaded/framed and that they have to confess or make a deal because they are intimidated. The cops are not considered as intimidating. There was actually a man with the surname Reid who came up with a lot of interrogation techniques and I've read articles about what they determined was ethical. IIRC, there was a closer episode where the bitch actually told someone that what they said would not be used against them in court-- which is NOT allowed. A person has to know their rights and to tell them they have immunity when they don't is a violation of those rights. I never liked the main character on that because of her fake accent and stupid facial expressions. I liked the supporting cast but despised her. I liked the actress in other things though. 

 

If you compare what Rossi did to what Elle did, Hotch didn't see what happened and he didn't know for certain that Elle just murdered Lee, but he suspected it. But I think he knew that Rossi would have done something to make sure that the shoot was techically legal. And the guy Elle killed was a rapist but not a murderer-- he didn't want his victims to die. Plus, I think they had his DNA so it was only a matter of time before they caught him. And Elle was the one who messed up the sting in the first place. With Gideon's killer, he took someone the team cared about. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I found when it comes to law enforcement agents, they tend to be a bit more loose with the law when it comes to cop killers. Someone who murders a law enforcement agent is reviled and often ends up dead before trial. Rossi is from more of the oldschool attitude where a rat like that should be put down. If you look back on the FBI's history, there was a time when they just started shooting at a mobster without giving him a chance to surrender and innocent civilians were killed. It used to be considered ok to kill criminals. Nowadays, attitudes have changed and its not as socially acceptable. I do think that it was a disservice to Gideon because he would not have approved of what Rossi did. But I think the current writers seem to think that its "cool' and therefore ok to do that. They also think its ok to rough up suspects and enter places without a warrant.

I think if Elle's story had been written by the current writers, Elle would have been getting high-fives from team members in the bullpen and Hotch would have just looked the other way.

 

I read a lot of comments about her accent but I've watched that show dubbed into Spanish xD (great job by the way, not every show is that well done). She sounds really weird but I can live with it. I prefer Helen Mirren in Prime suspect tho.

But I totally get it, every country and every county have a lot of accents and I know there are a few on my own country I can't tolerate.

[Saje]

I don't understand why everyone expects them to be all "Naughty, naughty you crossed the line!". 

 

These are people who deal with the scum of the Earth every single day and they need to RESCUE the victims. Mincing around on little cat feet does nothing, accomplishes nothing. Hotchner has shown he can easily stay on the side of law while bending phraseology, and influencing Unsubs or suspects. So he looks the other way when someone tries to manipulate a killer? SO WHAT? What the beejeebus do a few words mean when someone's LIFE is at stake?

 

In my view, it's much more honorable to save a life than to slavishly stick to an archaic set of 'rules' that have nothing to do with a given outcome. Nobody wants an actual ROGUE team, but haven't they proven they aren't that? They are never in it for just themselves. They are in it to save lives and stop psychopaths. They are heroes.

 

*Disclaimer* Sorry, the more I watch the more obsessed I become. Love these people!

[normasm]

Saje, I get what you say, but in my book, Hotch is someone who still hears that parental voice telling him, "This is the right way, and that is the wrong way." Sure, he sometimes has to compromise rigid morals to get the scumbags off the streets, but he never wants to go Dirty Harry, especially not just because he could get away with it. MO.

[smoker]

I don't understand why everyone expects them to be all "Naughty, naughty you crossed the line!". 

 

sorry, I personally don't think that, I have no problem at all with crossing lines if it's kind of justified (talking about tv shows), but if you go around all high and mighty in your white horse then you have to follow rules even if you don't like it, real heros work hard to make things right not only when it's convenient (or it's convenient for lazy writers) but always. I'm aware they are supposed to be human and make mistakes but writers selling me perfection and rightfulness one day and bullshit another. I mean there is a limit to the amount of inconsistency my brain can swallow. Put the blame on them, it works for me ;D

[Saje]

Saje, I get what you say, but in my book, Hotch is someone who still hears that parental voice telling him, "This is the right way, and that is the wrong way." Sure, he sometimes has to compromise rigid morals to get the scumbags off the streets, but he never wants to go Dirty Harry, especially not just because he could get away with it. MO.

 

I think that too, though. Not so much in that he hears a parental voice, but that he is guided by his own internal moral compass. Sorry I didn't mean to imply any Dirty Harry-ness... but he is not above bending a little if it means the difference between getting or losing the murderer. I feel he 'looks away' just enough. 

[ForeverAlone]

While it is true that sometimes the BAU will understandably bend the rules to save a life, the implications of such a maneuver used to actually be weighed and discussed. Just look at What Fresh Hell from season one. Yes, Gideon rushed into the suspect's house without a warrant, because he believed a girl's life was at risk. Hotch and the local LEO tried to talk him out of it initially, but they backed his play (because they really had no choice) when he forced his way into the house. He turned out to be right and they saved the girl, but at least they discussed the consequences to the case if they didn't find proof of the girl in the house. It was that respect for the law while balancing saving a life that is currently absent from the show. The team will regularly bust into someone's house without probable cause or a warrant, among all their actions in unrealistic episodes like anything Ian Doyle or 200 related. The writing just doesn't have that realism and respect for the law as it did in its early days.

[smoker]

While it is true that sometimes the BAU will understandably bend the rules to save a life, the implications of such a maneuver used to actually be weighed and discussed. Just look at What Fresh Hell from season one. Yes, Gideon rushed into the suspect's house without a warrant, because he believed a girl's life was at risk. Hotch and the local LEO tried to talk him out of it initially, but they backed his play (because they really had no choice) when he forced his way into the house. He turned out to be right and they saved the girl, but at least they discussed the consequences to the case if they didn't find proof of the girl in the house. It was that respect for the law while balancing saving a life that is currently absent from the show. The team will regularly bust into someone's house without probable cause or a warrant, among all their actions in unrealistic episodes like anything Ian Doyle or 200 related. The writing just doesn't have that realism and respect for the law as it did in its early days.

.

You rock!! There are no words to say how much I do agree with you!

[Saje]

While it is true that sometimes the BAU will understandably bend the rules to save a life, the implications of such a maneuver used to actually be weighed and discussed. 

 

Boy, do I agree. I haven't been watching as long as you people, but I've been bingeing older episodes while watching the new in real time and the contrast is sharp. They really just don't have the patience for letting the story unfold, for letting the team have actual conversations any more. I get it. I know why, and I see the merits in both ways of presenting the episodes. 

 

But I like the earlier shows much, much better (even though Dr.Spencer Reid is much more beautiful now ;)).

[ForeverAlone]

The team had time for actual conversations back in the day, because the vast majority of the episodes didn't feature much of the unsub, except short scenes in shadow. Then, most of the episodes were told from the BAU's point of view so we understood how they built their profile and caught the unsubs from the crime scenes and victimology. But now since there is too much unsub, the team often seem more like guest casts in their own show. There is no need for the team to actually talk through the case and work up theories when the unsubs are shoved in the viewers' faces and we often know more than the team does. I watch a whole lot of crime shows, and current day Criminal Minds is the only one that places more emphasis on the actual criminals and the guest cast. Every other show depicts crime solving with a focus on the law enforcement officers investigating the case. This shift in emphasis is one of the major downfalls of the show since Erica took over. Sure, we would occasionally see more unsub in early seasons (particularly that strange run in early season three), but they weren't the norm. And even in those episodes, there was way more team interaction and intellectual discussion, and interesting personal work conversations than there is now. It's just an overall decline in quality and shift in emphasis since Erica took over and we got a whole bunch of new writers. But I blame Erica the most, because as showrunner she sets the tone. If she wanted more team focused episodes, she would mandate it in the writing. All of these slips in realism and team emphasis is because Erica doesn't hold the line and force a higher standard. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

FWIW, I think that if Elle had explained to Hotch that William Lee was goading her about him being turned loose by the cops, I think he might have been more understanding. Not completely, maybe, but if she had told at least him the truth instead of sticking to her cover story about how Lee pulled a gun on her, he might have been a little more yielding. He knew what she'd been through, what she was still dealing with, and had she been honest it would have looked less like she was trying to get by with something.

[MichaelaRae]

Was watching ION Television (positively entertaining!) Criminal Minds reruns and I'm struck by the fact that I dislike Elle even more on rewatch than I did when watching in real-time. GOD she was annoying. Good riddance. 

[Droogie]

Funny how people's perceptions differ so.

I adored Elle. I missed her for a long time. I'd love for her to come back somehow.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Was watching ION Television (positively entertaining!) Criminal Minds reruns and I'm struck by the fact that I dislike Elle even more on rewatch than I did when watching in real-time. GOD she was annoying. Good riddance. 

 

When I'm being objective, I can see how Elle would not be to everyone's taste, but since pure objectivity is difficult for me to achieve, I always wonder what later episodes would have been like if she'd still been around. Even when she was being annoying, I'd take being annoyed by her flaws over having my nerves grated by JJ's bland perfection.

[Bookish Jen]

When I'm being objective, I can see how Elle would not be to everyone's taste, but since pure objectivity is difficult for me to achieve, I always wonder what later episodes would have been like if she'd still been around. Even when she was being annoying, I'd take being annoyed by her flaws over having my nerves grated by JJ's bland perfection.

So true, Co-Star. Flaws may irritate us but they also keep us interested in a character. Yes, at times Elle annoyed me. There are times when Spencer or Hotch-two of my favorite characters still on the show annoy me-annoy me. But I remain interested in them-well, before Erica Messer started running the joint.

 

JJ's bland perfection-love that term-grates my nerves, too, but not in a good way that makes me think she's a interesting, diverse and multi-faceted character.

 

I like characters on TV, the movies, books, etc., to be intricate, flawed, real and complicated-just like people in real life.

[amensisterfriend]

Random questions about Elle...who I'm somehow missing more than ever :) Thanks to all who indulge me! 

 

Did you love her when you first watched, or did she grow on you with repeated viewings? Was there a moment in the series when she really clicked with you? 

 

Favorite Elle scenes/moments? 

 

Which team members did you most enjoy her dynamic with? 

 

What would you have loved to know about her that we never got to find out? 

[MCatry]

Random questions about Elle...who I'm somehow missing more than ever :) Thanks to all who indulge me! 

 

Did you love her when you first watched, or did she grow on you with repeated viewings? Was there a moment in the series when she really clicked with you? 

 

Favorite Elle scenes/moments? 

 

Which team members did you most enjoy her dynamic with? 

 

What would you have loved to know about her that we never got to find out?

A) she grew on me, and I saw those days in which I realised I didn't appreciate her enough back in the early days.

B) when Elle called Gideon's attention to the fact that Reid may feel bad because of failing his gun test. Another lovely scene was when she said Reid he didn't have a girlfriend because he just did not ask anyone yet.

C) she was great with Reid, but also with Hotch, and even Gideon.

D) why did she decide to go for the FBI, specially since his dad was a cop.

Elle had a hard crust, but a soft, sweet inside. She was a believable strong woman.

[Bookish Jen]

A) she grew on me, and I saw those days in which I realised I didn't appreciate her enough back in the early days.

B) when Elle called Gideon's attention to the fact that Reid may feel bad because of failing his gun test. Another lovely scene was when she said Reid he didn't have a girlfriend because he just did not ask anyone yet.

C) she was great with Reid, but also with Hotch, and even Gideon.

D) why did she decide to go for the FBI, specially since his dad was a cop.

Elle had a hard crust, but a soft, sweet inside. She was a believable strong woman.

Yes, to all of this.

[normasm]

Random questions about Elle...who I'm somehow missing more than ever :) Thanks to all who indulge me! 

 

Did you love her when you first watched, or did she grow on you with repeated viewings? Was there a moment in the series when she really clicked with you? 

 

Favorite Elle scenes/moments? 

 

Which team members did you most enjoy her dynamic with? 

 

What would you have loved to know about her that we never got to find out? 

I came to CM later than most of you, so my experience of Elle was in jumbled repeats on A&E and ION. I didn't know what to make of her, but once i saw Derailed, she was solid for me.

 

I've probably said it in this thread, so I won't go into detail, but my favorite Elle scenes are the one where she blows Reid's cover in Derailed (fortunately, Dr. Bryar was too upset to notice), her accepting Hotch's coat at the police station in Fisher King, her drinking with Reid in her room in Aftermath, and her parting words to Hotch in Boogeyman.

 

I enjoyed her with Reid, then Hotch.

 

What I'd like to know was, was she ever raped or sexually assaulted? There are several scenes in several episodes, plus the fact that she specialized in sex crimes, that made me think there was more than just being a woman that made her extra sensitive to the topic of rape. I felt the Fisher king's assault on her was tantamount to rape, as was Tobias's on Reid.

[JMO]

 

What I'd like to know was, was she ever raped or sexually assaulted? There are several scenes in several episodes, plus the fact that she specialized in sex crimes, that made me think there was more than just being a woman that made her extra sensitive to the topic of rape. I felt the Fisher king's assault on her was tantamount to rape, as was Tobias's on Reid.

 

I don't know about an assault that might have led her to sex crimes in the first place, but didn't she liken the Fisher King's putting his hand into her wound, to collect her blood, to rape?  I think it was to Reid, when he went to her hotel room to try to draw her out.

[Bookish Jen]

I came to CM later than most of you, so my experience of Elle was in jumbled repeats on A&E and ION. I didn't know what to make of her, but once i saw Derailed, she was solid for me.

 

I've probably said it in this thread, so I won't go into detail, but my favorite Elle scenes are the one where she blows Reid's cover in Derailed (fortunately, Dr. Bryar was too upset to notice), her accepting Hotch's coat at the police station in Fisher King, her drinking with Reid in her room in Aftermath, and her parting words to Hotch in Boogeyman.

 

I enjoyed her with Reid, then Hotch.

 

What I'd like to know was, was she ever raped or sexually assaulted? There are several scenes in several episodes, plus the fact that she specialized in sex crimes, that made me think there was more than just being a woman that made her extra sensitive to the topic of rape. I felt the Fisher king's assault on her was tantamount to rape, as was Tobias's on Reid.

As you know, I was brutally assaulted ten years ago. The entire time I was being beaten I thought my assailant was going to drag me into an alley way and rape me or sexually assault me. And I wouldn't be surprised if similar thoughts went through Elle and Reid's minds.

[zannej]

JMO, someone who had the original notes about the characters said that Elle's backstory was that she had been raped. I can't remember who it was that had that info or where it was posted. I think on TWOP.

 

Normasm, I agree that both Reid and Elle were raped in a non-sexual way. Elle with having the fingers dipped into her wound and she couldn't stop it. Reid with the needle being stuck in him and he was completely helpless.

 

Jen, I'm so sorry you went through that. *hugs* I'm glad you're ok now though. I hope whoever did that to you is in prison now.

[smoker]

I don't think Elle had been raped, of course that may be in her backstory, but I don't think Elle acted on it, in the cia episode she talked to one female agent in an insensitive way about the chance of being raped, I don't think someone who went through that would be so mean about it.

so Hotch was figuratively raped too by the reaper and Morgan was actually raped, who is let? Prentiss and Rossi?  I don't know what to do with JJ because, well, I don't give a shit.