S05.E06: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

[janjan]

Choc; a volleyball team! Gooooo, Snakes!!!! Ha, what a disappointment, they look like truly badasses.  We have a saying for that in Spanish: "too much froth and no chocolate".

In Texas, the saying is "All hat and no cattle."

[Bcharmer]

In Texas, the saying is "All hat and no cattle."

 

Back when I played pool, whenever someone broke but didn't manage to sink anything, the saying would be "All bust, and no balls."  Kinda like the Sand Snakes.

[Pallas]

The Sand Snakes were working at a disadvantage, though.  Ellaria's plot displayed a woman's cunning: it required that the Sand Snakes, expert fighters, fight in a way designed not to make Myrcella late to dinner, not to shame a one-handed man, and not to silence the singing sellsword.  Yet do all of that none of that for long enough to let the palace guards show up in time to insure that more things did not happen.  You try it.  

[janjan]

I hope they haven't silenced Bronn with a poisoned blade. As Prince Humperdinck remarked, "I will be quite put out."

 

If the plot was to kill Myrcella, why didn't they just do it -- they certainly had the chance, but seemed to prefer to capture her instead. Maybe Ellaria wanted to squash her eyeballs out and throw her in the Pit of Despair. That's not really necessary if the point was to start a war, but maybe she's not thinking clearly.

 

Speaking of not thinking clearly, how can Cersei possibly believe that House Lannister hath no rivals. It's House Baratheon, for one thing, and the head of it is heading south to attack the last of the usurper Lannisters. And the Lannisters without Tywin are reduced to one fleeing dwarf, one one-handed bodyguard, two illegitimate children, and her. Her only allies are Sparrows and Littlefinger, both of whom will turn on her in an instant. Can she not see that? Maybe Olenna's best move is just to wait for Cersei to self-destruct.

 

How come Doran called Myrcella a Lannister.  Does he know something he's not supposed to know?

[ChocButterfly]

Janjan, I think everyone and their grandmother knows Cersei's children are her brother's, they just choose to go along with it because right now it's in their best interest. Like the Tyrells don't care about the rumors, because it suits them, since Marge is The Queen and all. But the minute it doesn't benefit them anymore...that's when they'll start reacting to the rumor and spreading it.

 

For me it's almost impossible that Cersei could appropriate all Tyrells lands even if she kills both heirs (Olenna's son and Loras). The only things she'd accomplish with that is another war, one that she'd likely lose. The only way she could win if is both the Lannister and the Vale armies go to her side. Maybe Kevan would come to defend the King, but there's no way in Hell Little finger will move a finger (heh) to help her. And let's remember that the Lannisters are BROKE, there's no food and the main grain available is coming from the Tyrells.

 

And add to the list of enemies (or possible enemies) of Cersei's The Fucking Bank of Braavos, which she has no intention to pay, specially if she is at odds with the only source of gold at the moment, the Tyrells.

 

Yup, Cerseis is Fucked. What I don't know is where exactly are they going with this, I mean, after Tommen is dead and Cersei has fallen, then what? Who takes the throne? The Tyrells??  Too easy. I'm sure Cersei won't be killed, she's one of those characters that are in for the long run, so what will happen to her?

[stillshimpy]

I'm not sure Cersei killing the Tyrell heirs would start a war, the Tyrells switched sides already so I'm not sure that Stannis would have them unless they...you know...that knee thing that is foremost in Stannis mind.  That might not even matter so much to him when they already beat him back at Blackwater (Aye, there's the rub!)  even if they did the knee thing.  Speaking of: 

 Woe betide the arthritic Gran who is all "Your Grace! Your Highness! I canna bend anything you ken? My but you're a fine King, and I truly believe that you'll be our savio....do I smell smoke?  I no can hear you.  You want me to fend or flee?  Fend for what?  Gawds, but it's warm in here...and it's getting brighter...and more painful!!"  

 

So I'm not sure they can go to war, but neither can the Lannisters so the point sort of stands. 

 

As for why Doran referred to Myrcella as a Lannister, it's probably for the dual reason that yup, everyone knows by now and then also, just like Catelyn was always a Tully and Sansa wore little fish on her dress in remembrance of that, Myrcella is supposed to be half Lannister anyway.  

 

  If the plot was to kill Myrcella, why didn't they just do it -- they certainly had the chance, but seemed to prefer to capture her instead. Maybe Ellaria wanted to squash her eyeballs out and throw her in the Pit of Despair. That's not really necessary if the point was to start a war, but maybe she's not thinking clearly.

 

Steel yourself, because painfully enough, that made sense.  Ellaria has so lost her entire mind to a need for revenge, she wanted to send Myrcella back to Cersei piece, by piece.  They didn't want to kill her outright.  

 

They wanted to Ramsay her back to Cersei.  

Edited May 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

They wanted to Ramsay her back to Cersei.

Oh right, I forgot that. I like "Ramsay" as a verb. I wonder what Baelon ended up doing with Theon's favorite toy? He told Yara to get rid of it, but maybe they framed it to display in the great hall, y'know, to promote dinner conversation.

 

But what did Ellaria want Cersei to do as she received her daughter pieces? Start a war right away, or wait until she had enough to reconstruct the kid?

 

See what GoT has done to me? I used to have humane sensibilities. Back in S1, I got upset when the Mountain killed his horse. That was a different me.

[ChocButterfly]

The Tyrells wouldn't switch sides again, they'd just start a war with the Lannisters. Although, I take it back, that's not how Olenna operates. Besides it'd be so much easier and productive to just get rid of Cersei. Then, they'd be in complete control. Olenna should start working on her next poisoning scheme, or maybe create another rumor about Cersei (other than the twincest, that one wouldn't help Marge stay the Queen). Heck, if all proof you need is a witness is super duper easy to pay one!

Edited May 21, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[stillshimpy]

The Tyrells wouldn't switch sides again, they'd just start a war with the Lannisters. Although, I take it back, that's not how Olenna operates. Besides it'd be so much easier and productive to just get rid of Cersei. Then, they'd be in complete control. Olenna should start working on her next poisoning scheme, or maybe create another rumor about Cersei (other than the twincest, that one wouldn't help Marge stay the Queen). Heck, if all proof you need is a witness is super duper easy to pay one!

 

Well, what are the chances that Littlefinger actually knows that Robert was poisoned/drugged into gored-by-boar?  Varys knew that, if I'm recalling that correctly.   Someone told Ned that, and I think it was Varys.   If Littlefinger also knows, he has his own reasons (whatever the frell they are) for wanting the Kingdom to tear itself to shreds from within.  Littlefinger conspired with Olenna, perhaps he will again.  

 

That's the way to take out Cersei without taking out Tommen, I would think.   That she had an affair with Lancel and conspired to kill the King with him.  Leave her kids out of it entirely.  I think the High Sparrow would sacrifice Lancel in a heartbeat.  I don't know how sincere his beliefs are going to be.  However, there's a long and rich history in the real world of religion being manipulated as a way to gain power and seize lands.   I bet the Big Birdie/High Sparrow would happily throw Lancel to the wolves.  

 

Now as to why he'd want the Tyrells in power over Cersei?  I don't know.  That's the part I can't figure out with the High and Mighty Sparrow.  I'm wondering if this whole story won't end with Cersei having to take up some sort of veil and join an order to save her neck.  

 

Here's the other thing.  Remember Littlefinger telling Ned "Never trust anyone, even me" and it was a) the truth and b) Littlefinger knew Ned would think he was trustworthy (do the opposite) of what he said.  

 

So I can't escape the feeling that he told Ramsay Sansa had suffered enough because he knew Ramsay likes to make things suffer.  Again, such a big fuss was made out of the state of Sansa's virtue , when Littlefinger would have to know enough about Bolton to know he couldn't possibly care less (this is the guy who chose a bride because he'd be paid in silver by her weight, so he chose the most substantial person).  

 

That's tripping me out pretty badly.  I mean, I guess it shouldn't.  Lyssa did everything Petyr wanted her to and he didn't really have an problem tossing her out of a moon roof.   He's kissed Sansa at least once when it was a weird choice for him to make (when Lyssa saw him and it wasn't just about manipulating Sansa).  He seems to encourage Sansa to view him, if not romantically, not in a platonic fashion.  

 

Now, that could all just be about Littlefinger being the High Crown Prince of Lies, but what bugs me about "Huh.  Why would he set Sansa up to be sexually traumatized on purpose?"  is I can't make it make sense in my head.  To punish her for the time she wouldn't accept his protection?  I would have thought she earned, if not his pardon, at least his protection again, when she saved his literal ass at the Vale and then again, when she was willing to marry Ramsay.  

 

So what's he up to?  I don't think he believes that Ramsay will kill or skin Sansa.  He's got to know this kid's reputation, the day they got there there were skinned corpses littering up the joint.  Plus, if he knew enough about Bolton to know he'd made Ramsay legitimate , it seems so likely he knows the rest.  

 

So did he want Sansa hurt by someone so that he'd appear like such a gentleman and good guy when he inevitably goes back to get her?  I mean, I'm assuming that's what is going to happen.  LF is too smart (and essentially evil as balls, he's the devil's testicles of evil, really) to really want Tommen to remain on the throne.  So he's up to something and I'm guessing it isn't actually going to involve giving Cersei any part of Sansa to decorate the castle with...but he did seem to go out of his way to emphasize that Sansa had been hurt and suffered enough. 

 

Sometimes I think Littlefinger is actually the reason I'm still intrigued by this plot.  I can't figure him out, at all.  Actually, that's sort of true of Melisandre too, but I guess I find LF more intriguing because his methods are less "LOOK AT MY BREASTS!" and involve more actual gamesmanship and plotting.  

Edited May 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

That's a terrific notion, shimpy: one way -- maybe the only way -- to remove Cersei from the board without having to take out Tommen too.  Set aside the legitimacy issue and charge her with the Lancel affair/co-conspiracy to kil l Robert.  I love it.  We know Lancel said he had repented, and I'm guessing that he may have confessed his sins to the High Sparrow.  Which adds a...richness to the Sparrow's first, humble interview with the Queen.  Perhaps, in fact, Lancel's confession is what originally emboldened the High Sparrow to assume a much higher profile.  And then, to his surprise, the mountain came to Mohammed: the Queen came to him, offering an alliance, without his even having to threaten her...

 

Meanwhile, I wonder about what Cersei sees as her endgame with Margaery.  Does she just want the girl to step aside?  Was that the meaning behind, "Come to me if you need anything....anything at all...."?  Margaery's renouncing her marriage and the throne would blacken her name, not Cersei's, with the boy-King and the people who love her.  I feel certain that Cersei does not want to alienate Tommen.  She does not want to lose another living son.  

 

And then Littlefinger.  He did take pains to set up Sansa with Ramsay: he may as well have listed her on craigslist as "Pristine, high-born, pre-abused wife.  Free to bad home.  Do your worst to the best."  

 

I've never thought Littlefinger held anything but hatred but Catelyn, her sister and her daughter.  An especially misogynistic hatred, one that does not rule out desire.  Steels it, rather.  Sharpens it.  Strops it into a weapon.  I think he hated Catelyn for her gender and her class even as a boy, when he thought he loved her. Then she rejected him, then accepted Brandon Stark, then stood by as Brandon humiliated and nearly killed him, then married Brandon's brother and and bore him five children as the Warden's Lady of the North.  

 

The most "Tully" child of that marriage, the one who so resembles Cat?  Catspaw, he thought, when he laid eyes on Sansa.  By now, though, he may have honed his hate so fine, it's bloodless.  He may not be able to fuck what he hates: he may have gone past that.  He may have lived so long in his yearning for revenge, he's beyond wanting to step out of his brilliant fantasies into the mess of sex and savagery, himself.  He just wants to make it happen.  He doesn't even have to watch. He wants to set the thing in motion, step out of the room, shut the door behind him and close his eyes.  There, then, alone in his own mind: that's where it's real.  He just wants to know.  

[stillshimpy]

He may have lived so long in his yearning for revenge, he's beyond wanting to step out of his brilliant fantasies into the mess of sex and savagery, himself.  He just wants to make it happen.  He doesn't even have to watch. He wants to set the thing in motion, step out of the room, shut the door behind him and close his eyes.  There, then, alone in his own mind: that's where it's real.  He just wants to know.

 

I am going to disagree to an extent, Pallas.  I don't think he's solely motivated by a need for revenge or that he whatever feelings he had towards Catelyn or whomever turned into misogyny and reveling in their pain.  

 

I agree that whatever it is he's up to -- which seems to be that he wants to raze the world that rejected him and then rule the remains --is about setting things in motion that will bring that about, rather than having a specific end goal.  For instance, I think he really may not care if Bolton or Stannis emerges intact from the battle for the North and Winterfell.   I honestly don't think he gives a damn there, he just wants two power players -- more powerful when it comes to might than the Lannisters currently are (as witnessed by what Cersei had to say about Kevan and Jaime being....elsewhere) to be brutally engaged and busily taking each other out.  He essentially managed that with the Starks and Lannisters.   

 

But he also really did set up a weird situation where Sansa's emotional and (to an extent) physical well-being is in peril, but her life almost certainly isn't.  It's bizarre, but he's right.  The Boltons won't kill her and Ramsay's downfall may really be that he can't resist hurting her, because he's Ramsay.  Stannis won't kill her either.  There was a weird note in all of that, Sansa to Theon "Do you think I care what he does to you?"  seemed to actually be the point of cutting away to Theon and really concentrating on his reaction.   Theon may not be able to ever break on through to his Theon-side again, but the point seemed to be that he cared what was happening.   

 

Similarly, there's such a visual echo from Arya bathing bodies in the house of Black and White to Sansa's pre-marital bath (death of the maiden there, moving into the next phase of life), that it cannot possibly be an accident.  

 

So I don't think Littlefinger set her up because he hates her and wants her to suffer and just get (his version) of off on the idea and the notion.  I think he purposefully wanted to ...jeez, how to put this, have her innocence disposed of entirely without having to be directly responsible for it.  Plus, he's set himself up to be such a direct contrast to Ramsay, it's freaking eerie as hell. He encourages some (relative to the situation) purely romantic connection to Sansa.  If you ever really want to get a case of the creeps, look at his face when Sansa says "I expect I'll be a married woman the next time we meet"  and the "wow, Petyr really set her up for that marital rape....what's he gain from that?"  also goes a long way towards explaining the look on his face when she says Lyanna was abducted and raped.   He gave her that weird, assessing look.  

 

But I think he's got some purpose in doing this stuff that goes beyond Sadism and Misogyny.  At least, I freaking hope he does, because he's the only intriguing and nuanced villain in the piece at this point.  He's the only one with complexity or layers and -- very key to creating believable characters -- conflicting emotions within.   Where this story falls down too often is that people like Ramsay, Bolton and Joffrey lack complexity.  The Mountain?  No facets there either.  The monsters in this story tend to be too "Yes, yes.  We get it.  You're evil."  

The Hound's strange relationship to Arya was covered here too.   She kept saying she hated him and Jaqen would whomp her with the Untruth Stick of Shame as a response.  She did hate and she also didn't.  

 

Sort of like part of the reason I don't think that you're right about Littlefinger's "really, he became a misogynist and he just wants to see women suffer, Stark in particular" take on the situation.  For one thing, he completely took a pass on turning Arya into the Lannisters.  Probably because he had no motivating reason to do so.  He's not just out to destroy the Starks and all things that resulted from that marriage.  

 

I think he's set himself up to be the absolute contrast to every man Sansa encounters.  He seems to respect her enough to share plans with her.  She's alone with him in all sorts of circumstances and whereas everyone and their ....Aunt....alludes to "Did he have sex with you?"  "You tell me if he ever tries anything" (Shea) the panel at the Eeyrie full-body flinching when Sansa said "She saw him kiss me..." and then saying it was on the cheek or completely innocent or whatever it was she said:  Point is, Sansa knew she was lying.   

 

Now why Littlefinger has done that isn't clear to me, because there is one thing I agree with you about:  it's not about love or sex, or passion.  It's about destroying a world with a history of dismissing him, discounting him and rejecting him.  There's absolutely revenge in there.   LF went out of his way to suggest to Sansa that Ramsay was besotted with her already and went out of his way to try and goad the easily goaded ickiness that is Ramsay into hurting Sansa.  I think he is creating that contrast from himself to every other man.  He kisses her chastely.  Despite spending lots of time alone with him and being assured by nearly everyone that LF isn't safe to be around, he's never put any moves on her.  He seems to have a chivalrous (seems being key to Sansa's perception) devotion to her. 

 

But I think it is far, far more complicated than: In his rejection, it turned to hate and now he wants to close his doors and imagine the Cat-like girl being hurt.  I think that he wants to rewrite the history fully.  Where he becomes the most powerful person in a Kingdom containing the shards and ashes of the powerful families that sneered at him.  Even if he is King of Chaos, he still wins over them. 

 

I just also remember his talking about Brandon Stark and what a square-jawed wonder he was and then after he was gone ,there was his brother, who was even more "too good to be believed" with a squarer jaw and more just sword, or however the hell Petyr saw him and Catelyn fell for him in due time.  

 

Littlefinger seems to have set himself up to be the only truly virtuous man in Sansa's eyes and he made sure Ramsay was going to mistreat her to better insure that contrast.   

 

He wants to be the "Too good to be believed, she fell for him due time" winner this time and it helps that he doesn't really give a damn about sex, or love, or passion.  But he does about winning and he's written a strange and complex play with Sansa, casting every other man as a danger to her and himself as her only true, trust-worthy knight.   She might be the recast Catelyn in his play and he's the recast Ned or Brandon.   

 

At least, that's what he appears to be doing.  He's such a weird character.  He will avoid outright lying, or seems to.  When he told Cersei where Sansa was, she talks about believing him when Sansa's head is on a Spike (blah blah blah, Cersei's sort of stupid at times)...he pretty obviously sidestepped any affirmation of "oh sure, you bet, I will bring you her head" and rather "As I said, I live to serve"  (and he skipped adding what).  

Edited May 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

Such a shame that Varys is away from KL and unable to throw a spanner into any of Littlefinger's machinations. V was one of the few people who saw what a powerful threat LF was and had some ability to thwart him.

Great discussion re: Mr. Finger. Thx

[stillshimpy]

Such a shame that Varys is away from KL and unable to throw a spanner into any of Littlefinger's machinations. V was one of the few people who saw what a powerful threat LF was and had some ability to thwart him.

 

He makes an interesting foil to LF, that's for sure, but I don't think Varys's motivations are any less convoluted and peculiar.  I don't think he "serves the realm, because someone must" or that he was truly backing Dany all this time, longing for a return of the Targs.  Dragons are too close to magic for me to completely buy that it is that simple for Varys.  

 

It is strange how they are the Yin and Yang in this story though.  Littlefinger profiting from everyone else's base desires, even when he's not running an actual brothel.  Varys completely removed from such matters and decidedly disinterested in them.  Every now and then he seems to facilitate something within the story, but his motivations are more difficult to suss out than Littlefinger's resentment, thwarted love and envy.  Littlefinger is a creature made of every base, passionate, covetous , insatiable part of a person.  He's like the bonsai tree of all those things, snipped down and super concentrated, just as twisted.  

 

Varys, on the other hand, is almost devoid of all of those things, except for wanting his Wizard in a Box to punish for making sure he always would be devoid of those things.  So he does contain some desire for revenge.  He's also very intriguing, but I don't think he has pure intent.  

 

Pallas, you said Littlefinger had an almost bloodless need going on and I just don't see it that way.  Although, it was absolutely alarming as hell that we had to listen to the wedding night with Lyssa (because good god, Littlefinger actually has sex?  Who the hell knew? and EEK) , but it's Varys who is called The Spider in all of this.  Varys seems to be the contrasting Chess Piece to Littlefinger in this and if he's a bloodsucker, then I'm assuming that Littlefinger is the thing he would eventually eat. 

 

ETA:  I watched the episode again last night, in case all my "I clearly have fresh thoughts going on" thing isn't obvious and the thing that really struck me?  How badly staged that entire Fight in the Water Gardens was.  Myrcella hovering over her, presumably unconscious, intended making like "Eeee!" "Ooooo!" sounds was cracking me up.  

I was even more embarrassed for the poor actors playing the Sand Snakes, particularly when contrasted to the badass head guard, who resisted playing it too broad (take a lesson, Snakes) .  

 

But while we all concentrated on Doran saying that he knew how dangerous it could be when a Martel loved a Lannister....dude, what history was he talking about? His?  His sister's?  What with the who now? What past event was he talking about?  

 

Also, I don't think he has gout.  That might be the offical story, but I don't think he has gout.  

Edited May 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Great discussion, O Sistren!

 

I want Varys back. Whatever his motives might be -- and I agree we don't really know them -- he has never hurt anyone, even indirectly. Except the sorcerer, but that's forgivable. That puts him in the same category as Ned, Sansa, and Jon Snuh -- alone among the major characters. One could argue that Tyrion and Jaime deserve the Laurels of Virtue, but their claim to a halo is less clear -- Tyrion did kill his father after all, and Jaime crippled Bran. So I tend to believe Varys that his motive is to promote peace and stability, if only in the way of Thomas Hobbes -- by strengthening a realm.

 

In any case, I want Varys back. He and LF are the most fascinating characters in the whole saga.

[Pallas]

What a great reply, shimpy, and beautiful excavation and depiction of Littlefinger's nature, layer upon layer.  Hide upon hide.

 

I only addressed the one layer that has to do with Tully/Stark women, rather than The Game. I didn't go on to say that the Woman Thing, even the Tully/Stark Thing, is almost incidental to him -- well below his focus on The Game. That's what I meant when saying that as a boy, he already hated Catelyn for her class as well as gender, even though he thought he loved her. (Yet on that one point -- that he thought he loved her -- I do take his word.  Speaking about his crushed crush on Cat is the one time he seems roiled rather than smooth, fixed on having his story heard, rather than manipulating his listener.)

 

After that, he put himself entirely to the task of re-inventing his purpose and life's work.  Even when he began his affair with Lysa, I don't think his long game of ending as her consort -- as a brief stop on his way to far bigger things -- had that much to do with Catelyn.  Maybe the thought of kissing Catelyn fraternally at his wedding to her sister was a nice bitter herb to spice the whole undertaking, but probably no more than that.    

 

As far as we know, Littlefinger's next action that had anything to do with Catelyn directly, was his having Lysa poison her husband and then send Cat the Damn Letter about the Lannisters.  (Of course, it would help in our interpretation of Littlefinger's role if we knew, conclusively, if he was or was not behind the second attempt on Bran.  Did he, from afar, set up the assassination and supply Knifey?  Or did he, in King's Landing, just seize the occasion and lie about Knifey, when Knifey came back into his life, attached to Catelyn?  But I really don't mean to re-open that discussion, in the absence of any new evidence!)

 

I'm not sure Littlefinger even cares all that much about being the last man standing.  He's a political nihilist, a Robespierre, a Pol Pot.  Maybe Littlefinger does still want the the crown, for what it represents; may he even wants to rule.  But as I see it, most of all, he wants to be the one man resolute and brazen enough to open every gate in the wall.  He's no longer really competing for the regard of other men, not even their view of him up there on the Iron Throne. He's looking to punch a hole in the sky big enough for the gods themselves to look down, see him standing there alone or burning alive and say, "Huh.  Well fuck me.  Never saw him coming."

[WhiteStumbler]

If Littlefinger would burn the 7K down just to rule over the ashes, Cersei would burn the 7K down just to deny her "enemies" the ability to rule over anything.