Smallville Bests and Worsts

[amensisterfriend]

Here's the place to nominate and discuss your personal 'bests' and 'worsts' of the series! 

 

What are your picks for best and worst seasons? Your 10 or so best and worst episodes? Best and worst relationships? 

 

My three best seasons (in chronological order): S3, S6, S7...yeah, I have odd taste :) I was tempted to go with S8 and S9, but I just adore Lex too much to select a Lex-free season. My admittedly lame justifications for S6 and S7: I love Jimmy Olsen, love Oliver Queen/Arrow, thought Lex/Lana made a dark and warped sort of sense (and was more enjoyable to me than Clark/Lana), and just really liked a lot of the S6-S7 storylines. I'm also really old, so the high school stuff probably doesn't work for me as well as it does for many others. S6 and S7 seasons actually improved a lot with a second viewing for me...I even like Kara! Plus, for some reason Lois annoys me a lot less here than she does in the show's two final seasons. 

 

Worst season: S4 

 

Favorite relationships, romantic and otherwise: Lex/Lionel, Lex/Clark, Lex/Chloe (I just love their dynamic for some reason!), Lex/anyone, Chloe/Jimmy, Chloe/Oliver, Jonathan/Martha 

 

Least favorite relationships: Clark/Lana, Clark/Chloe, Lana/Whitney

 

Favorite characters: Lex, Chloe, Lionel, Jimmy, Oliver

 

I'll be back with favorite/least favorite episodes after I refresh my fading memory!  

 

 

 

  

 

[BkWurm1]

Jimmy Olsen falls on my worst character list because one, he's not even Jimmy Olsen and two, he was toxic to Chloe.   To be in a relationship with him she had to be less than she was.   Less smart, less driven, less successful, less invested in her friends or career.   He seemed to support her but while his intent often seemed genuine, it wasn't what she wanted or needed but she'd twist herself around trying to make it work only for in the end the truth to always win out, she didn't truly trust him and didn't consider him the most important man in her life but she felt awful and depressed all the time because she thought she should trust him and should put him first.   And when he left her after they were married he treated her like dirt which was all swept under the rug because he died - saving her but if he hadn't been there blabbing like a yipping puppy and having a very ill timed conversation and kiss, then Davis wouldn't have had any reason to be upset in the first place.   . 

 

I only like Jimmy away from Chloe.  Oddly, I thought he worked well with Lois.   But I HATES him with Chloe and hated how Oliver and Clark reacted to his death.  That made all my negative feelings about Jimmy that much worse because at the very least, his death should not have been made to be about Oliver or Clark.  

 

So Henry James Olsen, nominated for worst character because he IMO nearly ruined the best one (Chloe)

[blueray]

I like the earlier seasons, however my favorites is season 5 and maybe season 6. Mainly because of the clark and Chloe friendship.

 

Best characters:

 

Chloe

Oliver

Johnathan

Martha

 

Hated:

Lana!

Davis (though he was evilish)

[DigitalCount]

Favorite episodes for each season that I watched:

Season 1: Rogue, Zero, Obscura

Season 2: Rosetta, Visitor, Ryan

Season 3: Perry, Memoria, Crisis

Season 4: Crusade, Run, Transference, Pariah, Blank, Commencement

Season 5: Mortal, Reckoning, Cyborg, Fade, Vessel

Season 6: Sneeze, Arrow, Justice, Combat, Prototype

Season 7: Bizarro, Persona, Siren, Traveler, Descent

Season 8: Prey, Turbulence, Beast, Injustice

Season 9: Checkmate

Season 10: Luthor

Razzies:

Season 1: Pilot (:/), Craving

Season 2: Vortex, Fever, Dichotic, Exodus

Season 3: Magnetic, Velocity

Season 4: Spell, Bound, Ageless

Season 5: Uh...Hypnotic, maybe

Season 6: Zod, Hydro, Crimson, Trespass, Promise

Season 7: Fierce, Veritas, Sleeper

Season 8: Instinct, Committed, Bride, Power, Requiem, Hex, Doomsday

Season 9: Persuasion

Season 10: Finale

Edited August 28, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Gilmorefan]

Best characters

Lex

Chloe

Lois

Worst

Jonathan

Lionel

Best season: probably five, five was just a really strong season and (shockingly) I didn't hate any of the characters (for once).

Worst: four (the witches storyline was stupid. Really stupid), last half of season six (fake baby????)

[amensisterfriend]

It's funny how some of my opinions have changed: I still have a shameful fondness for S6, but like S5 more than I used to and S7 a little less. And I really enjoy S8, though lord knows why :) 

[AndySmith]

Hmmm...I'll just say seasons 3 to 6 were the "Golden Era" for me. Not saying they were the best, but probably the ones I enjoyed the most? There was good stuff after, there was good stuff before, but those 4 seasons are the ones for me.

[amensisterfriend]

Andy, I was just saying in another thread that I actually love S4 way, way more than I ever expected to, so I'm excited it's included in your golden era!

What would you guys name as your favorite, most rewatchable episodes from each season and/or from the series overall?!

Oh, and another bests and worsts: Which five characters would you name as your very favorites? Which five are your least favorites?!

[BkWurm1]

Top five characters:  (in no particular order)

Chloe

Clark

Lex

Lionel

Martha

Top five worst characters: (in no particular order)

Lana

Lois

Clark (Yes, Clark is on both lists)

Jimmy

Pete (he probably doesn't deserve to be in the top five out of every actor ever on the show, but of the main cast, he does)

 

I find season five highly rewatchable.  Specifically "Thirst".  It's not a good episode, but I love it. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

My list mirrors @BkWurm1's but I have to add Bo Kent to my faves list, so I have six for that. And Kara makes my worse list. This iteration of her was just horrible.

[amensisterfriend]

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Pete (he probably doesn't deserve to be in the top five out of every actor ever on the show, but of the main cast, he does)

Pete was just such wasted potential, you know?! It seemed like the writers gave absolutely zero thought as to who he was supposed to be beyond 'friend of Clark and Chloe.' I feel like in nearly every scene he was just kind of THERE. I certainly don't actively dislike him, but I feel like if you magically erased him from canon, very little about those beginning seasons would have been different. 

Weirdly enough, Lois may actually be my very least favorite of the major characters. Don't even get me started! And I actually like other iterations of Lois Lane and think Erica Durance did what she could with the role, but I just found Smallville's Lois completely insufferable.

As for favorites: Chloe, Lex, and Lionel are kind of the holy trinity for me :) Sometimes I wonder how the same writers who created characters I love as much as I do the preceding three could have created other characters I find so incredibly disappointing! I would also include Clark (though it took a couple of rewatches for him to grow on me---but I really do have a thing for such fundamentally kind, decent, brave, earnest but imperfect heroes, especially as there are relatively few of them around!), Oliver, and I've really come to appreciate Jonathan and Martha.

Who do you guys feel were some of the best and worst villains?   

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

Who do you guys feel were some of the best and worst villains?   

Lionel was the BEST Villain.

The worst? It's a tie between "Doomsday" and "Darkseid."

[rue721]

8 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

What would you guys name as your favorite, most rewatchable episodes from each season and/or from the series overall?!

Season 1:  Jitters

Season 2:  Prodigal

Season 3:  Asylum

Season 4:  Transference

Season 5:  Void

Season 6:  Promise

Season 7:  Descent

I know there are some pretty unpopular episodes on that list! But Promise is so goofy and over the top that I love it. It's endlessly re-watchable to me. And I don't even know why I like Void so much, but I do. Maybe because it's one of my favorite episodes for Lana (and I actually like Lana).

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Oh, and another bests and worsts: Which five characters would you name as your very favorites? Which five are your least favorites?!

Favorites:

1. Lex Luthor

2. Clark Kent

3. Lana Lang

4. Lionel Luthor

5. Tina Greer

Honorable mention is Lillian Luthor. She's not on the list since we saw so little of her, but I wish we had seen more! She was pretty intriguing.

Martha Kent almost made the cut, too. I liked her and was always happy when she was showcased in an episode, but she ultimately just didn't get all that much to do.

Least Favorites:

1. Jonathan Kent (Uuuuuugh. I can't even explain why I hated him SO much, but I did).

2. Jor-El (He made no sense, and it was aggravating. Such a plot device).

3. Kara Kent (She was miscast, IMO. There was nothing wrong with the actress, but somehow I could never forget that she was acting, and I wasn't just watching "Kara." Does that make sense?)

4. Lois Lane (The show had no idea what to do with the character, and it showed IMO).

5. Henry Small (I think that he was miscast, too. The character could have been pretty complicated and interesting, but the actor didn't have enough charisma or personality to really pull it off. So the character just sort of fizzled IMO).

Honorable mention is Pete. I agree that his character had so much wasted potential. I wish that his mother, the judge (IIRC?) would have been involved in the show more, too! I didn't dislike him, but I was frustrated by how the show failed to use him at all. Remember his terrible car-racing episode? I mean come on. It's like the show didn't even try to develop him or give him interesting storylines.

Also, it's kind of surprising, but Chloe didn't make either list for me. I liked Chloe OK, but I guess I just don't feel that strongly about her. Well, the ruthless, conniving Chloe that was in Truth was a lot of fun. I liked that version of the character a lot! But I didn't like Sidekick Chloe. I think the issue is that I liked Chloe pretty well on her own, but I didn't like her with Clark, and I didn't like her relationship with Clark -- and she was stuck with Clark A LOT. So I guess in a way, she should go on both lists, rather than neither.

[amensisterfriend]

Rue, did you like Chloe more with Ollie and once she was over her feelings for Clark? Just curious! Of course, a lot of the characters were more grim and less spirited and lively by that point in the series anyway IMO, including Chloe. And please tell us more about what you like about Lana! I love hearing how others perceive her because sometimes I really struggle to wrap my mind around who her character was supposed to be. I really do try to like and appreciate her more, and sometimes I come close to succeeding :)

I feel oddly validated that Lois made a lot of our 'worsts' lists :) 

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Remember his terrible car-racing episode? I mean come on

I was trying to repress my memories of that one :) 

It also didn't help that Clark and Pete had such awkward friendship-y chemistry. I mean, Clark is supposed to be kind of stiff and awkward and, for understandable reasons, guarded (and reminding myself of that is key to me enjoying the character---and Tom Welling's performance---a lot more!), but somehow he and Pete just didn't seem like authentically close friends at all to me. Chloe and Lois bonding as cousins tended to make me cringe as well, though, so maybe I'm just not thrilled with how this show wrote friendships? Clark and Lex's frenemyship, though? A definite 'best' for me :) Speaking of which, how about your favorite non-romantic relationships?

I would go with Lex/Clark, Lex/Lionel, Clark/Chloe, Clark/Jonathan (sorry, I know many dislike Jonathan and totally get why!) and Chloe/Lex, because the relatively little we got between them was really fun and interesting to me.  

Edited December 29, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

Rue, did you like Chloe more with Ollie and once she was over her feelings for Clark?

To be honest, I don't have much of an opinion on their relationship, because I have never gotten around to watching S8-10! I think I keep putting off watching those later seasons because I can't imagine the show without Lex (and sort of don't want to, I guess!). So the S7 finale is the series finale for me, at least so far.

13 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

And please tell us more about what you like about Lana!

To me, the thing about Clark, Lex, and Lana is that they each have an out-sized amount of power -- Clark was the strongest, Lex was the richest, and Lana was the most beautiful. And for each of them, having an out-sized amount of power seemed to really warp their relationships and their lives.

So I thought it was interesting to watch how Lana's beauty warped the other characters' perceptions about her, and became both a blessing and a curse to her. What I thought was especially interesting about Lana in particular (in comparison with Clark and Lex) is that over the course of the show she became more self-aware, and slowly began to understand how other people's perceptions of her didn't match who she actually was, and also slowly began to understand how to USE that (or even just deal with it).

Lex came into the show having already developed that kind of self-awareness and pragmatism, and Clark never developed either (at least up through S7!). So that's what I thought made Lana stand out.

I also thought it was a story that you don't see too much on TV, but that is actually very true to life (and relevant to many people's lives). I mean, IME, pretty much every woman has to get a handle on how their beauty or lack thereof effects their life and other people's expectations/perceptions of them.

Also, I do think that Kristin Kreuk is beautiful IRL, but I'm not making a judgement about her looks in particular when I say that Lana was "the most beautiful." I'm talking more about how the other characters treated her and just what her place seemed to be within the show's universe. IMO, just like how, within the world of the show, Lex was treated as having infinite wealth and Clark was treated as having infinite strength, Lana was treated as infinitely beautiful.

For me personally, I also just happen to really like when there are discrepancies between how characters perceive each other, and how they perceive themselves, and how the audience perceives them. And this show is VERY big on that, especially when it comes to Lex and Lana IMO (and when it comes to Clark, too, of course, what with his ~big secret~).

And I probably dislike Jonathan Kent for the just same reason that I like Lana -- Jonathan Kent was JUST what he appeared to be, and what he appeared to be was everyone's supposed ideal, that nobody (within the show) could say a word against without looking like an asshole. Bleh. So I found him both boring and insufferable. (Thinking about it now, though, maybe I think of Jonathan Kent pretty much the same way that other people think of Lana!).

[amensisterfriend]

That's such insightful analysis, rue! I agree that Lana's journey is often about gaining control over her own life and figuring who she is outside of the blandly perfect ideal that she's often held up to be. The problem (for me!) is that it felt like the writers didn't know who she was outside of that blandly perfect ideal, so we were often left with...you guessed it...that blandly perfect ideal ;) I find your ideas really interesting and will keep them in mind as I rewatch! 

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Season 7:  Descent

This is definitely one of the best episodes of the entire series IMO. It's one of the few but major reasons I find S7 well worth owning :)

So as a fan of both Lex and Lana, what did you think of their relationship? Was it a 'best' or worst for you?! Did you want Lana to end up with Clark?

And I also share your fascinating with Lillian Luthor...all things Luthor, for that matter. If I had the discipline and talent, I would love nothing more than to write fics that delve further into their family. 

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

Who do you guys feel were some of the best and worst villains?

I hated Doomsday the monster but loved Davis.  His ending could have been something so much better, no make that SHOULD have been so much better.  They wrote his arc so well right until the end and then swerved to make him a one dimensional monster.  His behavior at the end does not line up with his actions of feelings over the rest of the season.  He should have had either an ambiguous death or one that was purely sacrificial on his part, not just the petty murderer at the end.  Ideally, I would have had him saved but ridden with guilt and leave to find someway to make up for his misdeeds.  They didn't need to make him the bad guy.  They still had the mindless monster.  It was a weak storytelling device to get to the shock of Jimmy's death. 

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2. Jor-El (He made no sense, and it was aggravating. Such a plot device).

He made a lot of sense if you put him on the villain list, lol.  I finally decided he had a programming flaw.  That somehow the real Jor-El got mixed with either Zod or Zor-El's plan for taking over the world.   

I liked Brainiac but they rushed his reveal and underused him, but he still makes my top list.

Lionel was the shows best villain for a long time but then they muddled his character and I had a hard time understanding what he was supposed to be on the show.  But in season 10 when then brought him back in all his crafty, controlling ways, I was back to adoring him.  I basically watched the back half of season ten because of him (when otherwise I was only in if for Chloe episodes)

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think the issue is that I liked Chloe pretty well on her own, but I didn't like her with Clark, and I didn't like her relationship with Clark -- and she was stuck with Clark A LOT. So I guess in a way, she should go on both lists, rather than neither.

Oddly enough, you might like season 8-10 Chloe since she's more apart from Clark.  (Especially 9-10)  I will say though that I hated Clark from the end of 8 through most of season 9.  I mean, wanted him to die a horrid, painful death. Asshole.    

[amensisterfriend]

Beginning of Series Clark really is so much more likable to me than Last Few Seasons of the Series Clark, but then I guess that's often the case when it comes to characters on a show that ran this long...?! 

I'm trying to narrow down my favorite, most rewatchable episodes of the series. Be forewarned before you see my list that I have a soft spot for cheesy 'freak of the week' stuff, especially if there's some element off mystery involved. And I also love pretty much any episode that has a high quality Lex/Lionel or Lex/Clark scene, but that's kind of a given ;) 

[rue721]

52 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

I agree that Lana's journey is often about gaining control over her own life and figuring who she is outside of the blandly perfect ideal that she's often held up to be. The problem (for me!) is that it felt like the writers didn't know who she was outside of that blandly perfect ideal, so we were often left with...you guessed it...that blandly perfect ideal ;)

I'm not sure that the writers did know who the character was, but I think they at least tried to show that there was a discrepancy between who she was and who she appeared to be, and that Lana herself (eventually) understood that there was a discrepancy, too. I think that's why they emphasized that (incredibly long and silly!) storyline in which she was possessed by a witch who looked just like her but wasn't her. Or, more mundanely, why they showed things like how Lana getting upset with Lex when he tried to buy her a new wardrobe (when she moved into his house, IIRC).

Another way they showed that discrepancy (and her consciousness of it) IMO, was the way they had her pull a disappearing act on all her boyfriends. It seemed like she would get with these guys who offered her tons of stability and who looked great on paper, and then she go through all the motions with them...without ever getting to the point of actually feeling like they KNEW her (or, in the case of Lex, that she knew them). And then, when she couldn't stand going through the motions anymore, because it was making herself feel more and more alienated and lonely, she would run off on them and try to "find herself." It was screwed up of her, but IMO it was true to life and gave some interesting insight into her character.

52 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

So as a fan of both Lex and Lana, what did you think of their relationship? Was it a 'best' or worst for you?! Did you want Lana to end up with Clark?

I really liked Lexana! Probably the only one, I know ;)

Of course they were completely dysfunctional and doomed as a couple. But IMO they were very interesting to watch. And I thought they actually made a lot of sense together, too, in terms of personality and even in terms of what they had to offer each other. IMO the reason they were dysfunctional and doomed was because they were each too screwed up and too inexperienced with relationships (not just romantic ones) to be with anyone, not because they were incompatible. IMO they might have been fine if they'd had better upbringings...but they didn't, so they were obviously doomed ;)

What I thought was especially interesting was how neither of them could really recognize the cracks in their relationship as they appeared, even though they would have been obvious to anyone else. I mean, stuff like Lana not seeing how Lex was trying to get his hooks into her and basically trap her. Even if the pregnancy had been real, just the way that Lex tried to get her on lock down -- moved in, married, pregnant, etc -- SO FAST should have been a big red flag. But I guess that (orphan, teenaged) Lana was so unused to intimacy that she didn't see how it was weird/inappropriate. And meanwhile, Lex seemed to be completely blind as to whether Lana even liked him or not, let alone whether she loved him or not. I thought that made sense, too, though, because it's not like Lex had ever had a healthy and/or loving relationship in his life, lol.

Anyway, I didn't mind Clark and Lana as a couple, but I didn't really see them ending up together. IMO she would be ultimately be bored with him and he would be frustrated by her. They didn't seem like they were on the same wavelength.

I don't really have any romantic ships for the show, TBH. Well, except Lionel and Martha, because they were such a bizarre couple that I really wanted to see what it would be like if they were really together!

18 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oddly enough, you might like season 8-10 Chloe since she's more apart from Clark.  (Especially 9-10)  I will say though that I hated Clark from the end of 8 through most of season 9.  I mean, wanted him to die a horrid, painful death. Asshole.    

You're probably right. I've been meaning to watch those seasons anyway! I actually ended up watching Smallville in the first place because I happened to catch a random S10 episode (when S10 was first airing) and really enjoyed it. So I'm sure that the later seasons are worth watching...

But once I had actually watched S1-7, I couldn't bring myself to continue onto S8. I think because, like I said before, I knew Lex would be gone (or at least the Lex of S1-7), and I couldn't imagine the show without him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm a masochist-when I rewatch, I watch the entire series. But the first seven are the most enjoyable for me. Basically after AlMiles left, it went to shit.

Plus, like I've mentioned elsewhere, Tom's purtiness kept me watching and continues to for the last two seasons, despite my hating Clark and his assholishness. There were a few good episodes, like the Justice League of America and the sexay that is Michael Shanks.??❤?❤

[amensisterfriend]

I am just loving that people still have amazing discussions about this show! 

I really liked Lexana! Probably the only one, I know ;)

Not at all! I like S6 a lot (more than most, I'm guessing), and Lexana is one main reason why :)

 And I thought they actually made a lot of sense together, too, in terms of personality and even in terms of what they had to offer each other

I would love to hear more! What about Lex and Lana's personalities do you see as similar and different? What do you think they did/could have offered each other?

I feel like both Lex and Lana would have been sorted into Slytherin, for lack of a better analysis :) Both are cunning survivors who are willing to bend the rules and the usual ethical codes to protect themselves and those they love, both are driven/pressured to excel and be 'perfect' in certain ways, and even though they can be engaging and even chase affection, they often don't know how to connect with people in healthy ways. I see them both as users and manipulators, though obviously that doesn't mean they're not capable of real kindness and feelings. Both are fairly introverted and deal with a certain amount of darkness, loneliness, ruthlessness, questions about who they are and what they're truly capable of, a need to prove themselves etc. I'll also be super unpopular and say I also see both as more introspective and emotional than someone like Clark, but that could relate to the fact that as much as Tom Welling seems likable and happens to be ridiculously gorgeous, he could often be kind of wooden and one-dimensional :) Lana is softer and nicer than Lex, at least on the surface, but it's fair to wonder whether some of her 'good girl who does the right thing' stuff is an act (even she kind of wonders it!) Both are genuinely insecure and vulnerable in many ways and entitled in others.

So, anyway, I do see Lex and Lana as far more similar to each other than either is to Clark, and I definitely prefer the above version of Lana---the more dysfunctional, seriously/tragically flawed and therefore potentially complex and interesting Lana---that IMO her relationship with Lex came closer to bringing out.    

I see Clark/Lana as each idealizing the other but not ultimately ever being able to embrace who the other truly is. Lana seems to love Clark's stability, the loving family and more traditional upbringing he represents, the fact that he's the sweet, earnest, helpful Boy Scout guy next door...who happens to be awfully easy on the eyes :) I feel like he represents the grounded normalcy she wants out of life or at least wants to want---only it turns out he's actually the very NOT normal superhero who she would need to share with the world, which just wouldn't work IMO. Meanwhile, I feel like Clark is invested in viewing Lana as the perfect, sweet ideal---and he's awfully reluctant to see and accept her flaws when she inevitably falls short of that glossy image he has of her. 

Lexana took a weird turn but could have been a 'best' for me, and even as is I found it interesting. And you guys know I would have wanted to see what Chloe/Clark were like in a relationship as well, (though I did like Chloe/Ollie as well) but that's just me :) 

What other real or potential romantic relationships rank as bests and worsts for you all?

And on a totally different note, during which season did you love Chloe's hair the best?! I need to know these things ;)

[BkWurm1]

23 minutes ago, rue721 said:

You're probably right. I've been meaning to watch those seasons anyway! I actually ended up watching Smallville in the first place because I happened to catch a random S10 episode (when S10 was first airing) and really enjoyed it. So I'm sure that the later seasons are worth watching...

But once I had actually watched S1-7, I couldn't bring myself to continue onto S8. I think because, like I said before, I knew Lex would be gone (or at least the Lex of S1-7), and I couldn't imagine the show without him.

I don't feel right in actually endorsing you watching the final two seasons.  Even though season 8 went off the rails, it had some great moments that seemed very true to the characters.  I actually up until the last like ten minutes thought I was going to be very happy with the season 8 finale.  Instead it made me rage quit until the back half of season nine.  

At the start of season nine, Clark is given what felt like an emotional lobotomy and a whole new set of previously never felt feelings that even the actor had a hard time in interviews explaining when they happened.  He's so off that a lot of us watching really thought there'd be a reveal that it wasn't really Clark.  The way he behaves and the choices he makes baffled me.  And he does some IMO really awful things the show just ignores.  It's only toward the end of the season that he seems to return to who he is. Otherwise only Lois gets to see his friendly side.  

Then in season ten, Lois is written as almost a totally different character.  They radically tone down her shrillness and her stupid, which improves the watching experience, but it doesn't make sense from the character standpoint.  Much like her suddenly being the best reporter ever at the start of season 8 (later walked back heavily in the season) it comes out of nowhere and is based on nothing.  And they still managed to write her terribly in the end.  

But I will say, while Lex is much missed, Tess is not a bad stand in.  Again, some shifts in her character in season ten are not completely earned, but I liked them well enough to not care.  I think in some ways she got the treatment I would have wanted for Lex.  .  

Season 8 has fake/seen from the back Lex, but it does the character no credit.  Season 10 you do get some Lex stuff even if MR only returns for the finale.   

[BkWurm1]

3 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

And on a totally different note, during which season did you love Chloe's hair the best?! I need to know these things ;)

Season five through Sneeze of Season Six.  I really liked her hair in Sneeze.  Hated the bangs most of the time.  

Spent some time recently watching Exile a lot (opening of season three) for research on a fan fic and I've come to really like the cut she had originally in it before they later made her get extensions to even out the cut.  

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, rue721 said:

You're probably right. I've been meaning to watch those seasons anyway! I actually ended up watching Smallville in the first place because I happened to catch a random S10 episode (when S10 was first airing) and really enjoyed it. So I'm sure that the later seasons are worth watching...

But once I had actually watched S1-7, I couldn't bring myself to continue onto S8. I think because, like I said before, I knew Lex would be gone (or at least the Lex of S1-7), and I couldn't imagine the show without him.

I was less drawn to the show after Lex's departure too. For me, he was the most compelling and interesting character on the show. Lionel would be a close second. Quite frankly, I found Clark boring 99 percent of the time--his problems were boring, his relationships were boring, and his continual whining about his secret and destiny was extremely annoyingly boring. I'm pretty sure that's not how I was supposed to feel, but there it is.

Anyway, S7 is a fine finale, but you might actually like S8-10 more than you think. It's definitely not perfect, but then again, the first S7 had their issues too. Tess was an interesting stand in for Lex (IMO, she doesn't replace him; no one could do that!) and there still was the mystery of whether Lex was really dead or not that I think the show handled pretty well. I kinda grew to like Lois and enjoyed Ollie quite a bit in those seasons. And, I know this is really unpopular around here, but I liked Chloe more when she and Clark had more distance. I think it was good for her character to not be all about Clark and I think it was good for her to find her own place in the story.

TBH, I actually liked most of the characters more in those seasons--with the exception of Clark, who I still found mostly boring and annoying--but there were far less episodes I found engaging throughout those seasons. I think that's the curse of a show that runs more than five or six seasons;  you have a cast who knows their characters like the back of their hand by this point, but there's just less interesting things to learn about those characters. And, there's only so many times you can put the characters in the same position before it become stale.

10 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

I'll also be super unpopular and say I also see both as more introspective and emotional than someone like Clark, but that could relate to the fact that as much as Tom Welling seems likable and happens to be ridiculously gorgeous, he could often be kind of wooden and one-dimensional :)

As I was watching S1, I kept giving a friend who had not seen the show regular updates and routinely my comments about Clark was that he creeped me out at times. My friend replied with this comment that helped put Clark/Superman in perspective: It's the alien effect; too perfect makes him also wrong.

Edited December 30, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[amensisterfriend]

It's funny, because I see Clark as potentially more 'blandly perfect' than Lana who, as we've talked about here, can at least potentially be seen as genuinely having issues with her identity, insecurity as to who she really is outside of how she's always allowed herself to be perceived, how as much as she wants to be viewed as incredibly sweet she can be ruthless, manipulative, self-interested, ethically 'flexible', etc. And there's something kind of doomed about her, like she seems perfect on the surface but real happiness (due to her own actions, not just fate) is always elusive. But I love this comment...

It's the alien effect; too perfect makes him also wrong.

...because that explains some of the wooden affect. Like maybe it's not just awkwardness---maybe he genuinely struggles to feel and comprehend emotions as deeply as humans do?! 

See, this is why I'm obsessed with this show---it's just good enough to hook me, make me feel invested and stimulate my imagination, but flawed enough to trigger awesome discussions and 'what if...?!' theories and analysis since there's often not in any single clear answer as to what the heck the writers were trying to do ;) 

By the way, I rewatched parts of S3 last night, and suffice it to say that Magnetic is a new candidate for my list of least favorite episodes :) On the other hand, Phoenix was a million times better than I'd recalled! 

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

It's funny, because I see Clark as potentially more 'blandly perfect' than Lana

Oh, most definitely. But then again, I never had a problem with Lana as a character, just a problem with how the show did the on-again/off-again with her and Clark ad nauseam. 

[rue721]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was less drawn to the show after Lex's departure too. For me, he was the most compelling and interesting character on the show. Lionel would be a close second.

Yeah, I didn't really realize it beforehand, but I guess when it comes to SV, I really am, "Lex or GTFO" ;) I do like most of the other characters, though (really, everyone aside from Jonathan). Or at least, I like the humans; not so much the ones from Krypton. And the clone storyline in S10 looks fun.

What has kept me from S8-10 so far is that I figure that I'll finally start watching S8, but then I just want to re-watch this particular episode from S1 first. Or this particular episode from S5. Or this string of episodes from S3. Or whatever. And suddenly I'm doing another re-watch and not bothering to move on to S8 at all ;)

Anyway, I enjoy watching Lionel -- but I'm not sure I find him especially interesting or compelling? I kind of write him off as just an exceptionally clever sociopath. Trickster characters like that are always fun to watch, because you never know what they're going to come up with next. So I like that he's on the show. But ultimately, I think he's a pretty shallow character. What I enjoy most about him is watching how other characters react and try to deal with him!

I wonder if I would like Lex half as much if Lionel weren't on the show, too. I do think that their relationship makes each more interesting.

3 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

It's funny, because I see Clark as potentially more 'blandly perfect' than Lana who, as we've talked about here, can at least potentially be seen as genuinely having issues with her identity, insecurity as to who she really is outside of how she's always allowed herself to be perceived, how as much as she wants to be viewed as incredibly sweet she can be ruthless, manipulative, self-interested, ethically 'flexible', etc. And there's something kind of doomed about her, like she seems perfect on the surface but real happiness (due to her own actions, not just fate) is always elusive.

I think Clark also has pretty deep issues with his identity, seeing as he's got this big secret...And he sometimes does pretty ruthless, selfish things to try and keep that secret. He also does lie all the time. So I dunno that I would say he's perfect.

I liked Clark a lot in the early seasons, because I liked that he cared about other people and doing the right thing. He seemed to get more stolid and more self-absorbed as time went on, though. It also really bothered me how quickly and thoroughly he turned on Lex. Not even to say that Lex didn't deserve it, but it just seemed so unfeeling of Clark. Also, why did he give up on Lex so quickly?

Also, thinking about how watching Lex and Lionel relate to each other made both of them more interesting (and also more likable, at least in Lex's case) to me...I guess the opposite is true for me regarding Jonathan and Clark.

Jonathan really bugged me, and watching him teach Clark to be as self-righteous as he was really bugged me, too. The turning point for me was when Clark really gave up all hints of rebelliousness (during S3). I guess it was the Shattered/Asylum arc that led to Clark and Lex both siding more closely with their fathers (and dooming themselves in the process). But I could forgive Lex more for his actions following that, because he was missing a lot of information about what had happened, and because Lionel kept him on a leash so short it was practically a choke chain. Clark knew exactly what he was doing and had more freedom in his choices, so I hold him more culpable.

The show goes on and on about what lovely parents Jonathan and Martha were, and they WERE lovely parents. But Clark is so unimaginative and stolid, that you've got to wonder whether he would actually have been better off with a little more adversity and/or neglect LOL.

[amensisterfriend]

Okay, so you're banished to an island for the rest of your life---but, lucky for you, it's one that happens to be equipped with a DVD player :) You're allowed to bring just SEVEN episodes of this show with you. Which do you pick?! 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, amensisterfriend said:

Okay, so you're banished to an island for the rest of your life---but, lucky for you, it's one that happens to be equipped with a DVD player :) You're allowed to bring just SEVEN episodes of this show with you. Which do you pick?! 

You and your lists! Okay, I'll play, for once...

In no particular order:

1. Pilot
2. Crush
3. Obscura
4. Transference
5. Arrival/Vessel/Zod (tie)
6. Blank
7. Freak

It goes without saying the best and strongest episodes for me are the ones that show what a great friendship/partnership Clark and Chloe had.

[amensisterfriend]

---ETA:

Rue, as always, I really enjoy your analysis! I guess for me Jonathan's excessive pride and borderline ridiculous degree of stubbornness are somewhat acknowledged flaws that keep him from coming across as obnoxiously and dully perfect to me. If I'm being charitable to the writers, I would even say they deliberately tried to show how that's the one thing Clark didn't take from Jonathan---Clark learned (or at least was supposed to have learned, lol) to let himself rely more on others, to change his mind and come up with a new plan when necessary, etc. 

Martha is actually the one who bordered on too boringly and unrelatably perfect for me in earlier seasons, though her whatever-that-was interactions with Lionel always made her more intriguing and interesting to me. That seems to be a clear pattern for me: characters (Lana, Martha, Clark himself, etc.) are invariably more interesting when interacting with the Luthor men :) 

And I'm not sure I'll ever forgive you for getting me thinking way too hard about Lexana :) 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I actually loved the relationship between Clark and Bo Kent. Probably because Tom and John had such amazing chemistry, and Tom really sold the love he had and the grief over losing him when Bo Kent died. And that the chemistry was still there, each and every time John returned in the later seasons.

Same with the relationship between Clark and Martha. Like I said, aside from Erica Durance, Tom was just a chemistry magnet with just about everyone!

I never found Tom/Clark boring, though he did start to piss me off and make me hate him during the last stretch of the series. Growing up, I'd seen Super Friends, Superboy, Lois & Clark, so when I heard about this show, I wanted to see this take on Clark before he became Superman. Both sets of show runners ruined and messed up the potential to make this a show I could love all seasons. But they ruined it. The constant mooning over Lana, just got old so very, very fast. I expected to see some romance, because I knew about Lana Lang being Clark's girlfriend in high school. And before this show became the CW, it was on WB. CW took over in the fifth season.

[amensisterfriend]

I don't get why you keep calling him Bo Kent...?

Also, I actually disagree about Tom Welling being a chemistry magnet. He's a great looking guy, but for me his performance was usually way too wooden to generate much chemistry with whoever he was acting with at the time. For me, Alison Mack and Michael Rosenbaum were the two actors who had chemistry of one form or another with pretty much everyone and just kind of automatically made anyone else in the scene seem more interesting to me, but obviously this stuff is very subjective! 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, amensisterfriend said:

I don't get why you keep calling him Bo Kent...?

Cuz John Schneider was Bo Duke in Dukes of Hazzard and Jonathan Kent on this show!

And like you stated, chemistry is subjective. I didn't find Tom's acting wooden until maybe season 9 and 10, when I think he was trying to make Clark not as controlled by his emotions, and more of a mild-mannered guy, that Clark Kent was by that point in his life in comic canon. But it came off wooden. He may not be the best actor, but he's a good one. "Transference" is proof of that, the way he was able to mimick John Glover's or rather, Lionel's speech patterns and tics when Lionel had taken over Clark's body.

And here's where the subjective comes in: I didn't see any romantic chemistry between Rosenbaum and Kreuk. And I love Rosenbaum. Amazing that while he was playing Lex here, he was also Wally West/Flash, Deadshot, Dr. Polaris on Justice League/Justice League Unlimited. Of course, prior to this show, he played one of the jokerz on Batman Beyond.

[rue721]

36 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

I guess for me Jonathan's excessive pride and borderline ridiculous degree of stubbornness are somewhat acknowledged flaws that keep him from coming across as obnoxiously and dully perfect to me. If I'm being charitable to the writers, I would even say they deliberately tried to show how that's the one thing Clark didn't take from Jonathan---Clark learned (or at least was supposed to have learned, lol) to let himself rely more on others, to change his mind and come up with a new plan when necessary, etc. 

Martha is actually the one who bordered on too boringly and unrelatably perfect for me in earlier seasons, though her whatever-that-was interactions with Lionel always made her more intriguing and interesting to me. That seems to be a clear pattern for me: characters (Lana, Martha, Clark himself, etc.) are invariably more interesting when interacting with the Luthor men :)

I liked Martha pretty well anyway, but I agree that her quasi-relationship with Lionel made her a lot more intriguing to me! Even thought the truth is that Lionel probably just had a thing for redheads ;)

But it was still interesting to watch her deal with him, if only because she seemed better at it than anyone else! Honestly, she had a lot of confidence without seeming arrogant or superior or even pushy, and IMO she's the only character on the show who managed that. That went a long way with me. And she generally had a pretty unique perspective, which I liked.

I don't really think that Jonathan came off as too perfect, so much as it seemed like EVERYONE ELSE within the show assumed he was perfect. It bothered me because I couldn't see what he had done to earn so much respect.

[DittyDotDot]

I didn't have an issue with either Martha or Jonathan, but they were both kinda typical (and boring) parents espousing typical (and boring) parental advice. Martha was probably the more interesting of the two, simply because she had things going on outside of Clark. Not only her relationship with Lionel, but she seemed to have a life of her own outside of Clark. Even though it was really far-fetched how they sent Martha off to Washington, I could believe she could exist there. But, when Jonathan suddenly decided to run for political office, I was kinda thrown for a loop. I just didn't feel like he could exist outside of the farm and/or Clark.

I actually think they should've pulled the plug on Martha and Jonathan's exists earlier though. They were really important characters in the first couple seasons when no one else knew Clark's secret; providing needed support and they helped him work through his powers. But by S4, I was ready for Clark to grow up a bit more and, I think, losing Jonathan at that point could've given Clark a real "human" problem to deal with.

4 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

Also, I actually disagree about Tom Welling being a chemistry magnet. He's a great looking guy, but for me his performance was usually way too wooden to generate much chemistry with whoever he was acting with at the time. For me, Alison Mack and Michael Rosenbaum were the two actors who had chemistry of one form or another with pretty much everyone and just kind of automatically made anyone else in the scene seem more interesting to me, but obviously this stuff is very subjective! 

I totally agree with Rosenbaum and Mack having chemistry with just about everyone. Especially Allison Mack, who it seemed even in S1, almost any scene she walked into suddenly became electric. I didn't think she was an especially gifted actress at the start of the show, but her and Welling grew as actors immensely over the course of the series. 

[BkWurm1]

On 12/30/2016 at 8:28 AM, amensisterfriend said:

It's funny, because I see Clark as potentially more 'blandly perfect' than Lana who, as we've talked about here, can at least potentially be seen as genuinely having issues with her identity, insecurity as to who she really is outside of how she's always allowed herself to be perceived, how as much as she wants to be viewed as incredibly sweet she can be ruthless, manipulative, self-interested, ethically 'flexible', etc. And there's something kind of doomed about her, like she seems perfect on the surface but real happiness (due to her own actions, not just fate) is always elusive. But I love this comment...

 

 

...because that explains some of the wooden affect. Like maybe it's not just awkwardness---maybe he genuinely struggles to feel and comprehend emotions as deeply as humans do?! 

 

Clark was generally a good or nice guy, but he was never IMO shown as perfect.  He was though as the show moved along, far too often cast as the guy that was always right - even when Clark would then later acknowledge that he'd been wrong.

In the early seasons, Clark struggled too much with his identity and how to fit in and just deal with his guilt and confusion with his origin and arrival for me to ever think of him as perfect.  Plus there was the moping and the parental rebellion with his friendship with Lex and scheming to subvert Lana's relationships and going behind his parent's backs with most of his use of his powers.  Not to mention the self centered stuff to protect his secret and him taking his friendship with Chloe for granted in season 2 and of course, him running away to Metropolis for his redk summer that resulted in his dad's heart problem.

Even when he was off the little red rock, he still wasn't sure he would stick around and frankly people were just mad at him often enough that he never came across as perfect.  

But in the later seasons he had a lot more relationships with people I'd say were yes men.  Lana spent a lot of time accusing Clark of keeping stuff from her but otherwise treated him like he was perfect and then decided for him that she was just holding him back (I agreed but he should have been in the conversation), Oliver complained that he didn't use his powers enough but for the most part differed to him when it came to anything alien even if Clark's thinking was really off like stripping Chloe of her memories.  Lois was dismissive enough of Clark Kent but when she found out he was the Blur, she thought of him as a god and perfect.  She actually has a conversation with Oliver where they are complaining about measuring up to his perfections.

Then Tess took hero worship to another level with a touch of crazy and genocide.  I guess you could really put Lionel into that category as well.  

In the earlier seasons Clark had people that IMO better saw him as a real person and accepted that he was as flawed as everyone.   Pete left, his dad died, his mom moved away, he and Lex stopped being friends, and that pretty much left Chloe.  And Chloe called him on his BS and challenged him when he made crappy choices but also had immense faith and believed in him and worked alongside him to figure out problems.

Then Clark started pulling away in season 8 because of her relationship with Jimmy (for her own good) and he started thinking he had to go the hero path alone which led to him ignoring what Chloe was saying far too often in season 8 and 9 and being sanctimonious if the other heroes didn't just do his bidding and frankly, making some really crappy, crappy, CRAPPY choices.  (He ignores all through it's construction the building that will be used to take over the world and then just burns it to the ground???)     

By the end of season ten I felt like Clark was actually really isolated.  The people that now were around him the most were the ones that had trouble seeing that he wasn't perfect and that pressure and expectations led him to trying harder to not rely on anyone else.  He still accepted help but where as with Chloe for many years he valued and wanted her imput, by nine, he only wanted the facts.  He was really cold in season 9 to everyone but Lois and it was wildly out of character but when he started icing out everyone else and really being judgmental and unforgiving, that's when he started putting up this wall of stoicism and became a pretty wooden character.

Now what really happened IMO is that the idiots that had been whining for years over Superman not doing everything on his own finally won and the writers took away the support system he'd built and made them more of workers for him, or adjacent to him but no longer with him as any kind of equal. 

Even when he was surrounded by other superheroes, (Chloe being absent at this point) he really was more alone than ever.  At that point, he still wasn't perfect, but he was getting treated that way and it was IMO messing with his mind and turning him into someone I really didn't like and someone who I think was hiding more and more behind the mask of his powers.  Someone that seemed really lost and unhappy to me while desperately clinging to Lois, not because she was so special or great, but because DESTINY!! promised him she'd wouldn't reject him.  

He seemed fixated on her to give him what he needed as a person but since IMO she first viewed him as that demigod, she couldn't give him what he really needed, but it was a circular problem since he believed she was supposed to be the one he could rely on and so he kept pulling back more and more into himself, trying not to need anything from her since I don't think he could actually get what he needed at the level he needed.  

That's how I explain his woodenness.  He's basically in a kind of foggy depression.  

[rue721]

On 12/30/2016 at 11:23 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I didn't have an issue with either Martha or Jonathan, but they were both kinda typical (and boring) parents espousing typical (and boring) parental advice.

I dunno, I think they were pretty specific, unique characters, and not just archetypal parents.

I actually wanted to know more about *their* parents, because I thought it was interesting that Jonathan and his father-in-law hated each other, and that Jonathan's parents apparently were long-dead or something? Generally, I wanted to know more about how the Kents fit into their families and the community. If they didn't fit in very well, despite checking off all the boxes on the Upstanding Citizens list, I wanted to know why! And if they did fit in well, why did they always seem so isolated?

Also, I was very curious about why Jonathan wanted to be this island unto himself. IMO his wariness, self-righteousness, and isolation were all HIM as a specific character, not just general "Dad" traits that the show plastered on him because he was the resident Good Father.

Anyway, IMO the Kents weren't idealized as individual characters -- it was their relationships with each other that were idealized.

I was somewhat relieved when Jonathan died, just because watching him aggravated me. But I was happy that Martha and Jonathan were real characters on the show, and I would have been happy for them to have had even more complex and central arcs than they did.

Also, I think the Kents and the Luthors were meant to be foils for each other, and having one family without the other wouldn't have worked as well (at any point in the show's run). Although I actually think that Clark/Martha were the better foil for Lex/Lionel than Clark/Jonathan were -- so I was even more interested in the comparison/relationship between the Kents and the Luthors after Jonathan was dead. I'm sorry that the show didn't do more to push the families together or even just contrast them, later in the show's run.

If I had had it my way, Martha and Lionel actually would have married and we would have seen the families joined, just because I think that would have been really interesting!

ETA:  Also, I would have LOVED if Lionel and Martha were together/married while Lex and Lana were, because how would Clark have felt about that?! His mother and his "love" both Luthors all of a sudden? Kind of a missed opportunity IMO ;)

Also, the show never did anything to contrast Clark/Jonathan and Lex/Lillian even after Jonathan died, which I thought was a shame, too. I thought it was interesting how Clark seemed to IMMEDIATELY sanctify and idealize pretty much any parental figure who died -- he did that with Jonathan, obviously, but he did that even with Lionel, too -- and I especially wanted to know more about Lex's and Lana's perspectives on that.

Lana seemed to really have no choice but to idealize her parents, since she had virtually no memories of her own of them, and had to rely on people's sanitized stories about them, as well as societal pap, in order to imagine what having parents/family would have been like at all. So I'm curious about how she would have felt, and how it might have changed her perspective, seeing the idealization of a dead parent happen in real time -- especially since she was so familiar with Jonathan as well as Clark.

And with Lex, I really don't know how much he actually idealized Lillian (once she'd died) versus how much he was consciously just giving lip service to a sanitized version of his mother that he knew never existed. At first, I just assumed that he actually believed his (sanitized) descriptions of her, but once the show started letting us more and more into his head, it started seeming IMO like his own mental picture of her was very different from how he claimed to remember her, and he was consciously just giving lip service and even flat out lying about her to other people. And then later, it seemed to me like he didn't idealize Lionel in his thoughts after he'd killed him, either. His mental picture of Lionel didn't actually seem to change once Lionel was dead, the way that Clark's mental picture of Lionel seemed to change. I do think that Lex was surprised by how much Lionel's death upset him, and how strongly he started grieving -- but I think that that was about a change in his perspective on his relationship with Lionel, not so much about a change in his perspective on Lionel as a person. So anyway, I would have been curious to know more about what Lex thought about Clark's tendency to sanctify the dead, seeing as Lex himself doesn't do seem to do that, even for people he seems to have loved deeply.

Edited January 1, 2017 by rue721
clarity

[BkWurm1]

On 1/1/2017 at 2:36 PM, rue721 said:

I actually wanted to know more about *their* parents, because I thought it was interesting that Jonathan and his father-in-law hated each other, and that Jonathan's parents apparently were long-dead or something? Generally, I wanted to know more about how the Kents fit into their families and the community. If they didn't fit in very well, despite checking off all the boxes on the Upstanding Citizens list, I wanted to know why! And if they did fit in well, why did they always seem so isolated?

Yeah, Clark's maternal grandfather was a dropped plot point.  I always wondered about him. I do think at the beginning of Martha and Johnathan's marriage the conflict was that she was stuck on a farm and not living up to her potential but later after they got Clark, they deliberately distanced themselves from her father to hide his abilities.  So the rift later was manufactured to keep Clark's secret.  But once Clark was a teenager, he reached out.  It never felt like that relationship was resolved.  

A lot of their isolationist tendencies were all about hiding his secret.  It's why Clark didn't have many friends growing up.  A lot of it also had to do with pride and stubbornness and not wanting to reach out for help.  I think the two traits just reinforced each other.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 1/1/2017 at 3:36 PM, rue721 said:

If I had had it my way, Martha and Lionel actually would have married and we would have seen the families joined, just because I think that would have been really interesting!

ETA:  Also, I would have LOVED if Lionel and Martha were together/married while Lex and Lana were,

EWWW!!! Gross! I know I'm in the minority on this, but I could never, ever, ever, EVER support this pairing. Not when Martha was aware and knew of the file that Lionel had on Clark, and the vault full of refined kryptonite, that he would have killed Clark so he could be in Clark's body in "Transference," his blackmailing Jonathan, just everything. It's like Lorraine McFly willingly marrying Biff in the Back to the Future II movie.

I also didn't really care about Clark's or Lex's grandparents because well, this show's premise was about Clark before he becomes Superman.  I was pleasantly surprised that they flipped the script, if you will, by making Jonathan and Martha younger, as opposed to the elderly couple that found Clark; there was this jealousy thing with Nell over Jonathan and Martha being married in the pilot. I recall her "Martha." when she saw that Jonathan had come in to her shop with his wife. And her condescension toward the kind of flowers Martha wanted.

We knew that Jonathan was a local football star in this iteration.

[rue721]

On 1/3/2017 at 7:21 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

EWWW!!! Gross! I know I'm in the minority on this, but I could never, ever, ever, EVER support this pairing. Not when Martha was aware and knew of the file that Lionel had on Clark, and the vault full of refined kryptonite, that he would have killed Clark so he could be in Clark's body in "Transference," his blackmailing Jonathan, just everything. It's like Lorraine McFly willingly marrying Biff in the Back to the Future II movie.

Hahaha but that's exactly why I WANTED to see that pairing. I mean, what would it even be like? And Clark would be in a really tough spot. I mean, god forbid if Martha were to actually fall in love with that psycho?

It was never going to happen, and to be honest, it's pretty amazing that this show even went as far into the family drama storylines as it did. I just personally would have eaten that up with a spoon. ;)

[BkWurm1]

I found Lionel's interest in Martha interesting to watch, as was Martha's intellectual response to him (she couldn't help but enjoy his mind), but I'd have hated for her to develop real feelings when he was still blatantly awful.  She was kind of in a tricky place where it made sense for her to play nice with Lionel even if she never forgot who he really was.  I wouldn't have minded for more exploration of that, but I still wouldn't want her to actually fall for him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I found Lionel's interest in Martha interesting to watch, as was Martha's intellectual response to him (she couldn't help but enjoy his mind), but I'd have hated for her to develop real feelings when he was still blatantly awful.  She was kind of in a tricky place where it made sense for her to play nice with Lionel even if she never forgot who he really was.  I wouldn't have minded for more exploration of that, but I still wouldn't want her to actually fall for him.

And despite that yucky moment when it looked like she was attracted to him-and which gave me the heebie jeebies, I did feel better when she told Clark that despite taking Lionel's advice and everything that came with it regarding her political career, she still and never would trust him. This after "Nemesis," when he told her maybe he gave up too soon on Lex, and maybe he should reach out to him.

[rue721]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

She was kind of in a tricky place where it made sense for her to play nice with Lionel even if she never forgot who he really was.

Lionel has always played very nice with her, though, too. I don't remember him ever being anything but polite and brave to her or even around her.

It's to Martha's credit that her head wasn't turned, but honestly, if someone was willing to put a bullet in his head just to protect me, and fast-tracked me to the Senate because he was (ostensibly) so impressed with me, and meanwhile had never been anything but supremely complimentary and supportive to my son, I might start having some feelings for him! I wouldn't blame Martha for forgetting about what she'd heard about him or his sleazy business practices, when he was being so wonderful right there in front of her eyes, and had been wonderful to her consistently, for years and years. She's not a fool, but she's not made of stone.

Just based on Martha's feelings for Jonathan alone, though, she and Lionel were never going to happen as a couple. It seemed like she wasn't really interested in being with anybody else after he died.

It's really too bad, because as much as I liked Martha, it would have been really interesting to see her get with Lionel -- and then to see that relationship unravel. Lexana was sort of that same storyline, but it didn't work as well with Lex and Lana as it would have with Lionel and Martha IMO. Or better still, both those couples could have been going on at the same time, mirroring each other (and driving Clark into Lois's arms as they work together to save Martha, maybe?).

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

but honestly, if someone was willing to put a bullet in his head just to protect me, and fast-tracked me to the Senate because he was (ostensibly) so impressed with me, and meanwhile had never been anything but supremely complimentary and supportive to my son, I might start having some feelings for him! I wouldn't blame Martha for forgetting about what she'd heard about him or his sleazy business practices, when he was being so wonderful right there in front of her eyes, and had been wonderful to her consistently, for years and years. She's not a fool, but she's not made of stone.

But it wasn't that she "heard" about the bad shit Lionel did; she was a witness to it; to his using his "helping" Clark's adoption, to force Jonathan to convince Pete's uncle to sell to Luthor; the file he had compiled on Clark; the huge amount of refined kryptonite he kept in his vault. She was there when he announced the layoffs of everyone at LuthorCorp in Smallville, as a power play against Lex. How he was willing to let Clark die in "Jitters", when he was told Clark was still in there, along with Lex; just so his third level wouldn't be exposed.  His hiring of Martha, I suspect was because of Clark, and not because of her own experience. And he was making moves on her from the minute he hired her; So I, at least, in the end, appreciate that she didn't fall for him. I'd like to think that Martha was savvy enough to use Lionel to make sure she got to do what she wanted.

[BkWurm1]

Yeah I'll always appreciate how smart Martha was portrayed as.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah I'll always appreciate how smart Martha was portrayed as.

And that she never really got over Jonathan's death. All it took was for her to see Perry wearing his jacket and she lost it. You could see the grief take over.  Then again, I'm peeved that Annette and Michael didn't get to share any scenes when he guest starred in "Perry." I think they were already married in real life back then.

[iknowyouknow]

This thread is so much fun! I should preface this by saying that I've only watched most of the later season episodes once, so my opinions are heavily biased towards the beginning seasons/relationships.

Five favorite characters

Chloe, Clark, Lex, Lionel, Martha

Favorite romance

Clark/Chloe, although I realize it was never officially a romance anywhere except in my own imagination and the fanfcs I'm attempting to write

Martha/Jonathan

Favorite seasons

1, 3, 4 in that order

Most unpopular opinion

I'm one of those people who honestly thought Chloe WAS Lois in this canon. I remember excitedly telling people that their names even sound similar, as if that was some sort of "proof" to support my theory. (I've never been very rational, lol). Seeing that a few other people here felt similarly is so validating even all these years later!

I will always be among the few who believe that Chloe/Clark should have been endgame.

Also - I'm not a big Lana fan and don't ship Clana, but my very unpopular opinion is that on this show I prefer Lana to Lois and Clana to Clois. I can't even express how much I dislike Smallville's Lois Lane and her dynamic with Clark, though luckily some folks here have already done it for me!

Like a few other people have said, Smallville has problems, but it's one of my favorite shows anyway. I grew to love Tom Welling as Clark, Chloe is one of my all time favorite TV characters, and I love this show's Lex and Lionel more than any other.

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, iknowyouknow said:

'm one of those people who honestly thought Chloe WAS Lois in this canon. I remember excitedly telling people that their names even sound similar, as if that was some sort of "proof" to support my theory. (I've never been very rational, lol). Seeing that a few other people here felt similarly is so validating even all these years later!

I will always be among the few who believe that Chloe/Clark should have been endgame.

Also - I'm not a big Lana fan and don't ship Clana, but my very unpopular opinion is that on this show I prefer Lana to Lois and Clana to Clois. I can't even express how much I dislike Smallville's Lois Lane and her dynamic with Clark, though luckily some folks here have already done it for me!

I'm right there with you.  When I became convinced Chloe was Lois, that's the moment I went from casual viewer to it being MUST watch obsession.    And Chloe Sullivan has all the letters you need to spell Lois Lane in it so that seemed like the first of many hints.  The Fever letter with all that about her being the girl of his dreams masquerading as his best friend seemed like huge confirmation not to mention when she actually used Lois Lane as a pen name.  I'll never stop wishing for what the show seemed to promise me.  That's the show I was in love with.  The one that I miss and morn.

And yes, Chloe and Clark SHOULD have been endgame.  Even when the show was actively writing Lois and Clark as a couple, the writing still kept swinging back to reasons why Chloe and Clark were the better option.  I swear it's where the show organically wanted to go. So many of the later seasons seemed to start with the writers trying to force Clark and Lois only for the natural bent of the characters to then move the other direction making Clark and Chloe grow closer and closer as the season wore on only for the writers (or showrunners) to try to do another light switch at the beginning of the new season.                                                                                                                                                                                                               Lana was never a favorite but I thought Lana and her relationship with Clark was more valid and believable then his with Lois.  Lois was everything bad about a show trying to follow someone else's script.  She was a terrible representation of Lois Lane and the only way she could exist was to nullify for a season Clark and Chloe's relationship for reasons that never made sense.    Lana at least had earned her position on the show even if she was a mess.  But she was a mess that eventually made sense on the show. Lois wasn't even the same character by the final season.  They rewrote her personality and her history, lol.