S05.E01: The Wars To Come

[Anothermi]

Anothermi

 

 

Except the story Oberyn told was when Tyrion was a baby. In the flashback, Cersei looked to be anywhere from 11 to 14 years old. So that would mean Cersei (and Jamie) are 11 years older than Tyrion.  A Show has already revealed that the Lanni-twins are 40. So Tyrion is 29? Plus, that's a huge gap between children for momma Lanni.

 

I'm going to say that this mysterious brown-haired girl is neither Lyanna nor Oberyn's sister.

 

I don't think it is that unusual for there to be a gap that long between births. Mama Lannister could have had a number of miscarriages, or she and Tywin only infrequently got together, what with him being down in King's Landing. The fact that Elia was there when Tyrion was a baby, and as a young girl, would give enough time for her to grow to "bleeding" age, marry and have a couple of children by the time the Rebellion took place. I think the timing is just right. 

 

That's not to completely dismiss the possibility that she could be someone else, like a cousin? as suggested by WS.

[stillshimpy]

Tyrion and Cersei discussed onscreen, Janjan.  Cersei didn't actually say yay or nay, but the look on her face led Tyrion to conclude that Joffrey had done that.  

 

I can't recall which episode it was in, but it was when Tyrion was serving in Tywin's stead as The Hand, so sometime in season two, I believe.  Might have been three.  It's going to have been before Blackwater.  

 

Oberyn told Tyrion the story of when he 1st met him. (I just rewatched that horrible episode yesterday and my heart is still racing from the final scene!) :-/

It was shortly after Tyrion was born. He said he and his sister, Elia were excited about visiting Casterly Rock because they had heard about the "monster" that was just born to Tywin.  So, Elia (later to be Rhaegar's wife) was there and she & Cercei were just young girls. From what little I know of her, she would be more likely to be someone who would be concerned about doing something naughty,

 

I don't think it can be Elia, unless they are fucking with the timeline again.  First no accent, second, timing is wrong for that visit because, as mentioned, Tyrion was just a baby and we heard Cersei talk about praying for her mother to return and she was all of...was it four or five?  That was already established at some point.  

 

That's not to say they didn't just pitch the timeline and they could be calling Tyrion a baby well into being a toddler, but she'd still have to be pretty young.  Also?  No accent.  

[janjan]

I'm of the, apparently minority, opinion that the dark-haired girl in the flashback was just some random handmaiden or courtier's daughter, inserted into the scene so that there could be dialogue showing Cersei at her imperious best.

 

About S5E1 being mostly setup: The showrunners have to consider the one or two people in the world who haven't seen A Show and need an intro to the lay of the land. But they left unanswered the question of how did Tyrion pee? The air holes were pretty high up on the crate.

[gingerella]

janjan, you are not alone in your opinion. I was surprised at how much discussion has taken place about the brunette girl being Lyanna or Oberyn's sister, etc. I had no clue to any of that when watching A Show. I too thought it was a handmaiden or girlfriend of lesser social stature than Cersei.  However, after reading the spec on her, I can see how it might be Lyanna...maaaaybe...but I'm not really sold at all right now.

 

As for how Tyrion peed out the crate, It seems he would have to be laying on his back/side the entire time because it was not tall enough to stand upright in unless maybe it was standing on it's small end, and I think we were show the crate stacked in horizontal position when it was carried aboard the ship last season.  That said, to your query, he could simply turn on his side and stick it out a hole, yes? Pesky dissection of details, eh?!

[stillshimpy]

I'm of the, apparently minority, opinion that the dark-haired girl in the flashback was just some random handmaiden or courtier's daughter, inserted into the scene so that there could be dialogue showing Cersei at her imperious best.

 

The one I had wondered about was if it was the servant girl that Cersei let be beaten in her stead (and subsequently lost an eye), but she didn't seem like a servant.  I guess I'm assuming it wasn't some completely random person, but then again, I don't think we've ever seen White Rat before, or the guy with Daario, so you might be right.  Could be random extra number 682.   

 

On Tyrion, since they were at Illyrio's (where Dany and Viserys were in season one, when we met them) , the only thing I wanted to know about what was going to happen when it came to his travel arrangements was how quickly they could get him into that ginormous bath Dany took a dunk in, back in the day.  Ugh.  

[janjan]

...he could simply turn on his side and stick it out a hole, yes? Pesky dissection of details, eh?!

It has been noted on A.Show how disadvantaged women and girls are .Here is yet another example.

[ChocButterfly]

I also didn't think twice about the dark haired girl. She seemed to be barely a handmaiden, no one important. Maybe a lesser noble from a smaller house. It couldn't be Oberyn' s sister, Cersei wasn't so old when Tyrion was born. I believe she has mentioned being a little girl when she lost her mom.

 

I still believe Cersei could've order Tyrion' s death and maybe even the bastards' killing. Just because she has denied it or pretended  it was Joffrey, doesn't mean she didn't do it. I don't trust anything that comes from her. She did technically have her husband killed. And the reason she hasn't had Margeary killed is because she couldn't. Twyin told her repeatedly how they needed the Tyrells, she wouldn't dare to go against her father. He's been dead only for a few days, so let's see how long it takes her to order Margeary' s death. But if she tries doing that, she'll be in trouble, the Tyrells are not to be messed up with. She'll regret it.

 

I had forgotten a Show had already confirmed Arryn' s death was LF and crazy Liza' s doing. I still don't think that makes much sense...like LF has a magic ball and he can see how his random shit stirring is going to play out. I'll file that under the Idiotic Necklace Plot drawer.

[janjan]

Choco: a Show had already confirmed Arryn' s death was LF and crazy Liza' s doing. I still don't think that makes much sense...like LF has a magic ball and he can see how his random shit stirring is going to play out.

Remember Varys and LF having a philosophical discussion -- oh, how I miss those V+LF discussions. Varys saw chaos as the abyss or something (I forget what exactly, but something bad). LF replied that chaos is a ladder. Ergo, he doesn't know or really care how his random shit-stirring is gonna work out -- as long as it promotes chaos, he can find a way to benefit. And he's done pretty well for himself so far.

[Pallas]

There were two different scenes in which Cersei confirmed and convinced me that she had no hand in murders impugned to her. The second was in Season 3, when she implied to Tyrion post-Blackwater that it was Joffrey and not she who had ordered him killed by a Lannister knight during the battle.  Tyrion had been certain it was she, but knows Cersei very well -- and Joffrey, too  -- and he came away convinced.  Good enough for me.  The first was when Cersei, with what seemed like shame, told Tyrion that Robert's children were murdered on Joffrey's orders.   Again, I believe her.  Mostly because this admission came early in Joffrey's reign, during the time when Cersei was very reluctantly coming to know and even acknowledge, within the family, that she had mothered a monster.  

 

Then last year we learned that Lysa and Littlefinger had conspired to kill Jon Arryn -- and, then had Lysa send her sister Catelyn the fatal letter accusing the Lannisters of her own deed.  What did Littlefinger gain?  

 

• Upheaval at the head of the realm, through the murder of the Hand, and the casting of suspicion;  
• The need for Robert to replace that Hand with someone else who Littlefinger, knowing Robert, would have had good reason to think might be Ned: bringing that good man to King's Landing, and into Littlefinger's sphere of influence;  
• Igniting the conflict between the Lannisters and Starks: with Ned needing to take action against one great House's having murdered the head of another, and, with Jon Arryn beloved by Ned and related to him through marriage;
• Lysa freed to marry Littlefinger and finally give him a great House all his own, in his own good time.  

 

As a side effect of the suspicion Littlefinger cast on the Lannisters, Cersei became much more paranoid about being discovered.  We saw Cersei express her fear to Jaime in their first scene in the first ep, and it led directly to the maiming of Bran in the last scene.  (I think we can guess that it was Jaime who insisted on the tryst at Winterfell: more of what Cersei called, in the first ep and this last, his reckless "man of action" impulses without regard for consequences.)  Littlefinger was among the many who knew about the incest, and had reason to predict that the false suspicion would push fretful, spiteful Cersei into a corner concerning her real crimes.  A cornered Cersei lashes out and creates more chaos: Dany's analogy about making a snake angry, so that it's easier to strike off its head.

 

Where Littlefinger is concerned, add "sinister" to the list of attributes that may make for a good conqueror, but not a good ruler.   

[stillshimpy]

I also didn't think twice about the dark haired girl. She seemed to be barely a handmaiden, no one important. Maybe a lesser noble from a smaller house. It couldn't be Oberyn' s sister, Cersei wasn't so old when Tyrion was born. I believe she has mentioned being a little girl when she lost her mom.

 

I rewatched this last night and have to say that Cersei is actually quite warm to the girl (I mean, considering that it is Cersei we are talking about).  She's not a handmaiden, she's dressed in a similar fashion to Cersei and whereas she might be a lesser noble from a smaller house young Cersei does something a little startling:  She holds her hand and reassures her, "You don't need to fear my father" .  The camera cuts back and takes in a shot of the girls from behind, in the woods and they are still holding hands.  

 

Whoever she is, she's Cersei's friend.  Or at least it is strongly implied that she is.  

[DirewolfPup]

We haven't talked much about what Mance's demise means for Stannis, the Wall, or the Wildlings. I really worry that Stannis' "bend-the-knee" obsession will ruin his chances with the Wildlings. He was so bad-ass in the finale last year. I don't want him to squander opportunity so he can kill the Boltons and Freys.

[gingerella]

We haven't talked much about what Mance's demise means for Stannis, the Wall, or the Wildlings. I really worry that Stannis' "bend-the-knee" obsession will ruin his chances with the Wildlings. He was so bad-ass in the finale last year. I don't want him to squander opportunity so he can kill the Boltons and Freys.

Well, in my personal GoT fantasies I would like to see all the Wildlings turn on Stannis and burn the bitch, I mean witch, Mel, alive. That? Would bring A Viewer great satisfaction indeed.

[stillshimpy]

We haven't talked much about what Mance's demise means for Stannis, the Wall, or the Wildlings. I really worry that Stannis' "bend-the-knee" obsession will ruin his chances with the Wildlings. He was so bad-ass in the finale last year. I don't want him to squander opportunity so he can kill the Boltons and Freys.

 

A rewatch on this was interesting when it came to Stannis.  The actor definitely played it as if he was -- if not conflicted -- regretful that he (felt he) had to burn Mance.  It wasn't pronounced , but by Stannis standards there was almost a perceptible human warmth to him in that moment (I'm not making a joke, by the way).  

 

As for what it means for Stannis and the Wildlings, I think Jon is going to be key there.  Big redhead dude was clearly taking it all in.  

 

I don't know what will happen going forward, but a part of me hopes the Thenns get to Ramsay (hate him eternally) and Bolton (hate him only slightly less) .   One thing is clear.  Something is going to go down at Winterfell, because it is no long the smoldering Winterpile in the credits.  

[WhiteStumbler]

Big redhead dude

Thormund Giantsbane. That guy is awesome. I don't know what will happen with the Free Folk now that Mance is dead  :'-(

"Kings are dropping like flies" indeed. The only major house / group that hasn't lost its Supreme Leader since A Show started are the Martells of Dorne, the Freys of the Crossing, House Greyjoy, and House Bolton (ETA - Also the Tyrells haven't lost their... head). 3/5 of them are horrible, and we have contradictory information re: Dorne.

It seems a stretch that the Wildlings will suddenly reconsider their Lower Extremity Arthritis and suddenly become Those Who Kneel just because Mance is gone... unless there is a double-cross up Thormund's furry sleeve? Cunning and intrigue seem unlikely attributes for Wildlings, though.

Edited April 15, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[gingerella]

Something is going to go down at Winterfell, because it is no long the smoldering Winterpile in the credits.

I noticed this too and thought perhaps I'd just missed it but I think you're right, no more smoldering...I noticed the Weirwood Tree was very healthy looking in the opening credits too. Maybe that has something to do with the Scooby Doo Gang reaching the root peeps.

[Pallas]

I really worry that Stannis' "bend-the-knee" obsession will ruin his chances with the Wildlings.

 

It seems a stretch that the Wildlings will suddenly reconsider their Lower Extremity Arthritis and suddenly become Those Who Kneel just because Mance is gone...

 

I'm not sure Stannis cares as much about any other Wildling leader's bending the knee.  After Mance ordered his army to stand down, Davos ordered Mance to "kneel before his King" -- Mance refused.  Stannis then reminded Mance that kneeling is a traditional token of surrender -- Mance still refused.  And Stannis didn't press the point, instead asking Jon what he though Ned would have done with such a man.  Jon said, "Listen to him."  

 

In whatever the time gap was supposed to be between the two seasons, Stannis came up with his plan to ask Mance to have the Free People's Army join forces with Stannis's own, in return for universal Wildling "pardon" and forty-acres-and-a-lobster.  Mance's kneeling would serve to reinforce that as the Wilding clans' military leader, he was transferring to Stannis his own authority over the Wilding army -- as an active and not merely a defeated or decommissioned force.

 

And, Mance was a former member of the Watch, therefore, born south of the Wall: in the Seven Kingdoms.  By that reckoning he was Stannis's subject.  The Wildlings aren't and never were.  Mance was also a "false king" -- to Stannis, one more leech.  The Wildlings aren't.  Stannis probably didn't ask the commanders of the mercenaries he bought with his Braavosi loan to bend the knee, and he may not expect that of the Wildling captains, either.  

 

But will the captains join forces with the man who burned their leader?  Jon set out to kill Mance as a way to disrupt the Wildling army.  That was before Stannis came with a better offer for them and their people, and the legions to back it up.  The captains may accept Stannis's offer, at least long enough to do some very gratifying damage to the Boltons and the Freys.  After that? The "terrible mistake" that Jon foresaw may be as much Stannis's in killing Mance, as Mance's in defying him to do it.  I think all the elder lords of the story will soon be wiped off the map, and it may be the Wildlings who take out Stannis and his witch. 

[janjan]

Noted on rewatch:

 

    Little Cersei: Will the king and I have children?

    Witchie:  No. The king will have 20; you will have 3.

 

No children with the king. Baby Baratheon, black of hair, didn't exist; or else the writers are cheating, or else the witch is unreliable. Last is unlikely since she is too minor a character to be fibbing in what is probably her only scene. What dramatic purpose would that serve? I think option 2 is the most likely.

[Anothermi]

Noted on rewatch:

 

    Little Cersei: Will the king and I have children?

    Witchie:  No. The king will have 20; you will have 3.

 

No children with the king. Baby Baratheon, black of hair, didn't exist; or else the writers are cheating, or else the witch is unreliable. Last is unlikely since she is too minor a character to be fibbing in what is probably her only scene. What dramatic purpose would that serve? I think option 2 is the most likely.

 

 

This takes me back to the speculation of the parentage of Jon Snow debate. Perhaps he is the "dead" child of Robert and Cersei - who wasn't actually dead, but comatose? It's another possibility at least. Maybe Robert didn't want Cersei to be the boy's mother, or maybe it turned out Peycelle was  the one who pronounced it dead and he was wrong (again). Haven't actually worked out the time-line for this, so feel free to scoff. 

[janjan]

Anothermi: Perhaps [Jon] is the "dead" child of Robert and Cersei - who wasn't actually dead, but comatose?

Wow! What an intriguing idea. Must chew on that for a while, to think of a reason why Ned would hide that from Robert. Maybe he (Ned) didn't know. Willa just handed him a kid and said it was theirs, but she actually found him in a reed basket floating in the river. I like this idea because it supports my spitball that Jon Snuh is gonna end up on the Iron Throne. Why else would his yawn-fest of a story be getting so much screen time? But I had trouble with the pesky oath and the bastard thing. Ooooo, this would solve it. He's not only legit, he's the rightful heir to the throne. Well, assuming that Robert's claim was ever rightful. But mightful makes rightful, in Westeros as in most other places. ,<cynic alert!>

[Anothermi]

Of course that comes back to the witch in the flash-back being wrong because that would give Cersei 4 children and Robert - well it could still be twenty. But the 3 vs 4 children for Cersei remains a problem. But it's a lovely wild spitball regardless of it's accuracy. Certainly worth the flinging of. Perhaps I should yell "Fore"! (or however they spell that in golf) so everyone knows to duck?

[stillshimpy]

Anothermi: Perhaps [Jon] is the "dead" child of Robert and Cersei - who wasn't actually dead, but comatose?

 

The timing is wrong for that, unless Ned Stark took years to get home after the rebellion.  Cersei and Robert were married after the rebellion.  

 

It would be possible that Jon is Robert Baratheon's son by Lyanna Stark.   Just as Ned brought Lyanna home to be buried, why would he not try to hide her son from Robert if he believed Robert would insist on taking the boy from him?  

 

Ned's family was primarily dead and they had died rather hideously.  Benjen had joined the Night's Watch.  There's reason to believe that Ned would sacrifice his honor for the sake of his family and only his family. He was willing to lie and say he was a traitor against the 'rightful King Joffrey' to spare his children losing him. Ned was actually a little bit of a soft touch when it came to what his kids wanted (adopting direwolves, getting Aray a 'dancing teacher' , as a for instance) and seemingly truly loved his family.  So I can see him lying to Robert to be able to keep Lyanna's son with him.  

 

However, all of that also supports the "no way would Ned Stark give up his own son, even if it meant making Catelyn eternally angry about being stuck with his bastard at home".   

 

Also, Jon takes that damned Oath VERY seriously and would have kept it if he hadn't been boinking Ygritte as part of his cover.  

 

I don't know, most of the time Jon just bores me to death, but mostly it's that I still find it a little unlikely that a story that likes to break every fantasy trope is going to have the rightful heir to the Throne just wandering around like Neo in The Matrix as The One.  

 

As for what Melissandre was talking about with the "good" of Jon not being a virgin, I don't think that had a thing to do with believing he had King's blood in him.  I think it meant she wanted to ride him like a pony.  He's sort of cute, after all.  

[janjan]

He's [Jon] sort of cute, after all.

He was cuter last year. He seems to have put on weight or something. Sam is definitely beefier -- maybe wearing a fat suit? And Melisandra and Sansa and Lancel have all darkened their hair. And then there's the new Daario (same as last year, different from before) and the ever-changing Mountain Clegane. I wonder who he will be this year. Ain't nuthin' A Viewer can depend on I tell you. Nuthin'.This must be GoT.

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: He's sort of cute, after all.

Was it just me, or did Jon seem rather too... enthusiastic about whaling on the little kid who put an arrow in his (first) redheaded lady-love? The pretty, pouty child beater.

 

I'm so glad that The North and the Wall (and North of the Wall) are coming into focus as the most interesting part of A Show (to me). I hope Sam, Maester Aemon, and Shireen get to have a Castle Black Book Club. Will Sam mention the anti-WW properties of dragonglass to anyone other than Bran? Stannis' island is called Dragonstone -- I'm guessing there might be some dragonglass lying about there. Will any of the other lords of the 7K send men to defend the Wall? Will Bran be sporting a hipster beard and warging into everyone and everything around him when we check in with him? Will Rickon and Osha resurface soon?

 

I am getting more and more irate thinking about the shite decision that Mance made. He had an opportunity to accomplish all that he wanted for his people, but that damn knee would not touch the ground. Stannis offered him the best possible deal in the 7K, with one condition - 'bend the knee and help me defeat my enemies, enemies of mine that will be your mortal enemies in any scenario that has Wild... uhm, Free Folk south of the Wall. Oh, and as a Super Special Bonus? You get to live! My Wall, my rules.' What responsible King-Beyond-The-Wall wouldn't jump at that chance?

[Pallas]

I don't know, most of the time Jon just bores me to death, but mostly it's that I still find it a little unlikely that a story that likes to break every fantasy trope is going to have the rightful heir to the Throne just wandering around like Neo in The Matrix as The One.

 

Hee...But as a bastard Jon is not the rightful heir and never would be, any more than Gendry was. He may simply have King's blood from Rhaegar, as he had Stark blood from  Lyanna.  I do take your point that the protagonist lad of undiscovered regal blood, raised by kindly kin or brutes far from the palace, is a mythic and fantasy trope of the sort this story likes to blow up.  

 

What would make that story work for me here, though, is the way it illustrates how history is often gotten wrong, even by the victors who get to write it -- gotten wrong through misperception and self-justification, more than intent.  "The abduction of Lyanna" that actually wasn't, but nonetheless propelled Robert's Rebellion and Dissipation, and all the events that have unfolded for us since.  And, how it would give us one more layer to Ned, long after we lost him. 

[janjan]

Was it just me, or did Jon seem rather too... enthusiastic about whaling on the little kid who put an arrow in his (first) redheaded lady-love? The pretty, pouty child beater.

It was just you.

 

I am getting more and more irate thinking about the shite decision that Mance made. He had an opportunity to accomplish all that he wanted for his people, but that damn knee would not touch the ground.

As the great philosopher Marcellus Wallace said, . . .

 

Although Mance denied it was pride, but rather that he didn't want his people to fight any more. But surely he should know they couldn't just march south unimpeded. So your point stands.

[ChocButterfly]

No children with the king. Baby Baratheon, black of hair, didn't exist; or else the writers are cheating, or else the witch is unreliable.

 

 

 

You're forgetting option #3, which is perhaps Cersei was just lying and made the whole thing up to appear sympathetic to Catelyn? Knowing Cersei, probably the most likely. Yup, she seemed very sincere, but, so what?

[DirewolfPup]

ChocButterfly

You're forgetting option #3, which is perhaps Cersei was just lying and made the whole thing up to appear sympathetic to Catelyn? Knowing Cersei, probably the most likely. Yup, she seemed very sincere, but, so what?

 

I have another caveat to consider.  We don't know how old the baby was when it died. No name was mentioned, so it's likely that either A) it's too painful to say the baby's name, or B) the baby died before it could be named and announced. Ned and Cat didn't know this baby existed, so let's assume B.

 

Now, Cersei also said that a "fever took him." Old-tymie, GOT talk. That phrase could be interpreted as A) the baby got a fever shortly after birth and died quickly, or B) Cersei got a fever with the baby unborn which caused a still birth or a very sickly child at birth that never had a chance to live.

 

So it's possible that Cersei could be telling the truth about having a baby with Robert, the witch being right because the baby didn't live very long at all, AND that the baby died so soon that nobody recalled this dead child aside from Robert and Cersei (and staff). If the baby died before the announcement or died during child-birth, then the baby wouldn't have a funeral at the Septor (sp?) with a "golden shroud."

Edited April 17, 2015 by DirewolfPup