Unpopular Opinions

Chloe · September 20, 2016

On 19/7/2016 at 4:06 PM, betterthisway said:

You have company on that one. I hated SV's Lois. I wanted to love her but she's so egotistical and grating. Even the way she calls Clark "Smallville" gets on my nerves and makes her sound so condescending. I agree that obnoxious is the right word for her. I also agree that I didn't believe she and Clark had a deep and real love. Their bickering just made it seem like they got on each other's nerves, not that it was secretly masking sizzling chemistry and feelings they didn't want to face.

I read in a lot of places that the last two or three seasons are considered a "resurgence" for the show and a significant improvement over the show's middle seasons, but I thought the show's middle seasons were the best ones.

I didn't dislike Lois as an individual character, but I can't stand Clois. It was one of the most forced romances I ever watched on TV. And she stole Chlark's moment.

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I love Lana Lang. I view her as an unsure, introverted and somewhat meek young woman who was always eager to be liked and never confident of her real identity and purpose, and I relate to that a lot. She was defined and saved by other people and ultimately had to strive to define and save herself. Along the way she still managed to be empathetic, intuitive, generous, hardworking, supportive, smart, and stronger than she seems. Not trying to argue at all or change anyone's mind, but I just wanted to try to explain why the unpopular Lana Lang has always been one of my favorite characters. And I will always be a Clark/Lana fan even though I knew from the beginning it was futile lol.

I liked Clana, I really think they loved eachother, and although I didn't root for them at the beginning, I enjoyed the development of their romance, when it was more mature and less idealistic. I bought them as star-crossed lovers.

I also liked Lana's evolution, she is one of my favorite characters.

However, I believe Chloe was and should have been Clark's one. Clark always (or almost always) trusted her beforehand (he uncounsiously knew she was her best mate and confidant), their friendship was the most strongest in the show, they shared good and bad moments, they were the best partners and the cements for love were always there, since the previous seasons. She was the voice of reason he consulted when he felt he needed reassurance and she always believed in him. Chloe encouraged him to do his best (Lana and Lois also did, -well Lois sounded more like a nanny) but Chloe was the one who was always there.

Chlark would have been the most organic choice after Lana left.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Chloe

AndySmith · September 21, 2016

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but I thought the show's middle seasons were the best ones

Same here.

As much as I love Chloe...I never wanted her and Clark to be a couple.

BkWurm1 · September 21, 2016

Chlark was my OTP but I did get to a point at the end of season 8 through 3/4's of season 9 that not only did I not want them a couple, I wanted Clark hurt in various and extreme manners involving kryptonite enemas.

amensisterfriend · December 2, 2016

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but I thought the show's middle seasons were the best ones

Can we count S7 as a middle season?! I'm asking because I've recently been rewatching some random episodes and am surprised by just how much of S7 I'm loving, especially the parts that don't focus too heavily on Kara. Descent is one of my five favorite episodes of the whole series.

The more I rewatch, the more I'm torn on Clark/Chloe. On one hand, they still touch my heart and I agree with most of the reasons that people wanted them together. On the other, it's hard to get past how many times Clark's choices made it pretty clear that his romantic feelings for her just didn't compare to what he felt for Lana (and later Lois, at least in theory!), so I would always have felt like there was something of an imbalance there, with Chloe's feelings always seeming stronger than Clark's.

Plus, I grew to really like Chloe and Oliver. I don't know whether or not that's unpopular :) And I will always like Smallville/Justin Hartley's Oliver far more than Arrow/Stephen Amell's Oliver, which I'm pretty sure IS very unpopular!

Lana is too flatly perfect a character for me, and I really wish they'd given her some clear and relatable flaws and just a little more personality in general, but I still prefer her to Lois. And while I didn't ship Clana for the most part, I can't help but feel like the writing and acting combined to make Clark seem like he was much more in love with Lana than he was with Lois. Come to think of it, they never sold me on Lois being truly in live with Clark, either. I know we're not supposed to perceive it that way, but I couldn't help it.

For all the Smallville writers did wrong, I will be always grateful to them (and Michael Rosenbaum) for giving us this version of Lex, who remains one of the most compelling, memorable and just entertaining TV characters I've ever seen.

And I'll cap this off with the UO that I prefer Clark's frenemyship to any of Clark's romances. I found Clark vastly more interesting around Lex than pretty much anyone else.

BkWurm1 · December 5, 2016

On 12/1/2016 at 6:14 PM, amensisterfriend said:

Can we count S7 as a middle season?! I'm asking because I've recently been rewatching some random episodes and am surprised by just how much of S7 I'm loving, especially the parts that don't focus too heavily on Kara. Descent is one of my five favorite episodes of the whole series.

The more I rewatch, the more I'm torn on Clark/Chloe. On one hand, they still touch my heart and I agree with most of the reasons that people wanted them together. On the other, it's hard to get past how many times Clark's choices made it pretty clear that his romantic feelings for her just didn't compare to what he felt for Lana (and later Lois, at least in theory!), so I would always have felt like there was something of an imbalance there, with Chloe's feelings always seeming stronger than Clark's.

Plus, I grew to really like Chloe and Oliver. I don't know whether or not that's unpopular :) And I will always like Smallville/Justin Hartley's Oliver far more than Arrow/Stephen Amell's Oliver, which I'm pretty sure IS very unpopular!

Lana is too flatly perfect a character for me, and I really wish they'd given her some clear and relatable flaws and just a little more personality in general, but I still prefer her to Lois. And while I didn't ship Clana for the most part, I can't help but feel like the writing and acting combined to make Clark seem like he was much more in love with Lana than he was with Lois. Come to think of it, they never sold me on Lois being truly in live with Clark, either. I know we're not supposed to perceive it that way, but I couldn't help it.

I agree with you that they sold Clark as being more in love with Lana than Lois. I'm really not sure at all why Clark was with Lois. Cause she was there? The real answer is IMO because Comic history, not anything on the show.

The Clark/Chloe thing is tricky. Really liking Chloe with Ollie is NOT an unpopular opinion, lol. The thing to remember is that if the show had actually done the pivot from Lana to Chloe, the show would have written to address the seeming imbalance in feelings. When I was watching season 7, my expectations were that Clark would wake up to his feelings for Chloe in season 8 but she would have had him firmly in the friend zone so that he'd have to work to win her over. Basically, reverse pining with Chloe being oblivious this time around so there wouldn't have been that imbalance.

Season seven did have a lot of Clana in it, but I found it really pro-Chlark even as he's agonizing over Lana. All season long I saw the show pretty blatantly comparing Lana to Chloe and Lana coming out lacking.

It started with the smack down Chloe gave Lana over spying on Lex (which is why Chloe's season 9 role of Big Brother is in direct odds with who she really was but that's a different issue) and her vow to protect Clark from her, the whole Bizarro stuff with Lana not noticing anything off about Clark's behavior and being happier with the guy that was willing to turn his back on his responsibilities to the world and just live for their love. Chloe in contrast truly knew him and was one step ahead of his doppelganger. She was the one he kept turning to while he was pulling away from Lana and Chloe was the one that was helping him save the world while Lana was getting in the way. Plus Chloe literally traveled to the ends of the earth, proclaimed her love for Clark, and begged Jor-El for his help (and Jor-El gave it).

I felt like the show was positioning Chloe as the superior choice between Lana and Chloe and that it would have just taken Clark waking up to the truth and adding up that so many of his choices actually favored Chloe (he always turned to her about the important stuff) Clana never really recovered from the Bizarro stuff and with Lana just taking off and leaving a video (before it got retconned) it felt like it fizzled out the way it should have, with the feelings being there, but the person not matching up to either of their needs, wants and expectations.

Then they got new show runners.

Funny thing is, even knowing how the show turned out, when I'm rewatching the seasons , I still come away with the same expectations. It's crazy to me how the show kept naturally moving toward a Chlark romantic relationship only for the show to wrench into a different direction. The set up was there really in every season, right down to the finale when it's Chloe that has to explain to Lois that Clark is not some super powered god, but a real man and then it's Chloe that's stopping the wedding by knocking the poisonous ring away. And then it's Chloe and Clark that have that epic goodbye moment at the house with Oliver looking jealously on (seriously, slow mo has Hartley scowling during the hug and Clark looking guilty) It's just so weird of a set up. Why would they do that? But it's why I'll always be a Chlark fan. It didn't happen, but I swear on all my TV watching experience, it should have happened.

Edited December 5, 2016 by BkWurm1

Sirious Dude · December 8, 2016

My unpopular thoughts,

First i really couldnt stand lois lane,it was like a mix of erica durance face,way of acting and the way she spells the word,makes a strange move with the mouth wich i found really disturbing.Then there is the character personality that made me want to punch the screen anytime lois said something or had a scene.Clois was just ridicoulous and they didnt have chemestry at all.

And,despite most of the fan liked him,i couldnt stand lex luthor as well.I mean the actor was probably one of the best of the entire show(if not the best) and in the first 2 season lex was quite good but from the 3 i started to hate him,from s5 every scene he was in it was like someone punched me in the eyes.I dont like that kind of person,even when he was good he was just dishonest and manipulative.Then in season 5,i dont know if was the writers idea to make rosemabaum get fat,but his face looked really monstrous i always thought the writers want him to lookthat way as long as his dark side come out,anyways disturbing,a lot.Again tho he was honeslty one of the best actor in the entire show.

I seriously liked lionel luthor,when he's good but even when he was bad,he was so bastard that some scene are damn epic and kinda make me laugh from how bastard he is.And instead of lex,lionel was more elegant as villain,he wasnt a psycopath like lex.Then since season 5 he was definely one of my favorite,and i liked the tense moment with ma kent.But there is a scene,the one when he is making lex the eloctroshok,its absolutly my favorite of lionel,when he has tears in the eyes but ruthlessy order to high the voltage.

I honestly didnt like clark sometimes,especially when he let lex to talk to him with no respect and he always lower his head and take the hit without fighting back,but then with other character he has the guts to respond.Damn dude ur friend is gone since season 3,stop treating him as a friend cause he already has.And i dont understand why in the hell he keep saving him.Let him die and we all be happy,he know he is bad and that he will more and likely kill a lot of people,so why save him.I mean he regretted saving that dude that could be invisible cause he was a killer,and he was like how do i know who to save...well u know lex is someone u dont have to save.But tw was awesome in the role,and besides that clark is in my top 3 with lionel and lana.

Lana lang,i seriously read just hate against her.But i really cant do anything but love lana,and i cant really understand what people hate of her.I think the character is written pretty good,the meteor shower killed her parents and she live with her aunt.They both love each other,but she always feel alone cause she's missing that one part of some child wich is the family integrity,the love of a mom and a dad and the love between a mom and a dad.

Thats something pretty important for everyone and grewing up without that unavoidably has some repercussion on lana,she could be with all the people she loves and care about but still feel alone or unsatisfied cause that void is in her heart.Even tho she is always honest and lovely,she is smart and cute and even tho all the boys loves her,she is not over confident, arrogant or bitchy.She is always kind with everyone and put people wellness before hers.She maybe smiley and all but she suffer in the inside,and i see her really sweet and emotional,but in the good way.She is not even shallow and has some pretty strong value,as we can see in the early seasons and then going on till season 5.

After that lex ruined her,and i think people who ship lana with lex are just other haters,its just another way to hate her,cause lana with lex was everything but good.Was sad,u rarely see her smile or being really happy like with clark,and her being more strong and less whiny is due the fact that lex took her dark side out.I almost throw up when i see lana with lex,and so far the best chemestry is between kk and tw.Undeniable.And i dont say this just cause in a clana fan,indeed i didnt disliked jana,they were nice.Is the relationship with lex that is so wrong to me.

And a lot of people say she is selfish,but i dont see it.I remember her even pushing clark to ask chloe to the prom even tho she was jealuos cause has feeling for clark as well.And the thing of the back up boyfriend is so lol Lana was willing to break up with whitney when clark was starting a relationship with chloe,caue she realized in that moment she had feeling for clark and wasnt right to stay with whitney.But clark then would have been commited with chloe.

Maybe lana gets worste going on with the seasons,but i see her as a result of both clark and lex treatment.Eventually tho she get siriously better,since mid season 7.

And i really enjoyed jimmy with chloe,they were perfect and had a nice chemestry.Jimmy was the lana type of lover for chloe.Indeed they had some star crossed love.Too bad they killed it,but basically chloe killed him.Davis was a serial killer even with out the krypto part,why so willing to save him.

I dont get why clark is so bad at lying.I mean i know he's good so he doesnt like to lie,but after a whole life lying all u can do when someone ask u an explanation is make a really bad poker face and find the worst lame excuse?Shouldnt be clark a pro with lies?

Edited December 8, 2016 by Sirious Dude

amensisterfriend · December 29, 2016

I think I kind of love S4. I know many think it's the nadir of the series, but the more I rewatch, the more I really like a lot of it. If I'd had more coffee I'd be rambling about the reasons why, but since I'm caffeine deprived, you guys are spared :)

amensisterfriend · January 19, 2017

More UOs related to my admittedly weird love for S4, which I just finished rewatching:

1) I'm not generally a Lois fan, but I actually liked her introduction here this time around. Honestly, I'm starting to feel like my issues with Lois, Lana etc relate more to their exhausting dynamics with Clark than with them as individuals. I like Clark (for the most part!), but as I guess happens on a lot of shows, endless romantic entanglements, lovesick angst and will they/won't they roller coasters end up making most of the characters less likable and interesting to me :) This show was particularly irksome in that regard since canon dictates that Clark eventually ends up with Lois, so a lot of the rest of the stuff with Lana, Chloe etc sometimes felt like fan baiting and/or just time wasting while the writers prolonged the inevitable. (I know many of us had high hopes while the show first aired that the writers would diverge from canon, but still!)

2. I don't even want to know what this says about me, but I enjoyed the 'witch possession' stuff this time around. Blame it on me being a huge Charmed fan! ;) Whether the writers intended this deliberately or not, it sort of tapped into Lana's issues with not knowing her true identity outside of how others define her, her need for power and control over her own life and how she always seems to lack it, the way she's always haunted by the past, etc. And some of those scenes were just high energy fun in that earnest, cheesy yet somehow addictive Smallville-ish way :)

3. I actually sort of liked Clark/Alicia and Lana/Jason. Clark gallantly and idealistically but kind of stubbornly and cluelessly thinking that he can save ("somebody saaaaave me..."---great, now that's going to be in my head all day!) someone like Alicia who needs help fits the character so well. And Lana/Jason..well, it has at least two things going for it: 1. I like the actor who plays Jason and 2. It gave us a break from Lana/Clark :) Seriously, Lana actually seemed more invested in and genuinely happy around Jason than her other love interests IMO, at least until the rather grim turn of events!

4. I actually like Clark/Chloe's dynamic this season a lot more than I had remembered. While still obviously caring about him deeply, it felt like the trauma she went through at the end of S3 reminded her that there are a lot of other, non-Clark people and things worth caring about. Maybe that's just projecting on my part, but I felt like there was more mature acceptance from her this season. (And I always love Chloe and don't mean to imply that she was ever overly IMmature, but I just mean she's got a better perspective on her feelings for Clark now, or at least seems to) She still tries to uncover his secret before he's ready to tell her but as a really curious person myself, I can't ever blame her too much for that :)

5. So even though this wasn't as great a season for Lex or Lionel as S3, there's still some really awesome stuff here. Michael Rosenbaum, who I'd never really seen in stuff before or since, seriously blows me away in this role. So I guess my UO is that while there are a million reasons to love (or not love!) Smallville, MR/Lex alone would make the S1-S7 DVDs worth owning for me :)

BkWurm1 · January 20, 2017

Lol, those are unpopular opinions?

I even agree that Lois wasn't badly introduced. I remember actually being HAPPY when it was revealed she was going to stick around. (Boy that didn't last long) A huge part of my problem with Lois isn't how she was written, but how she was written and that she was supposed to be THE Lois Lane. They IMO past the first two episodes got her characterization all wrong. If she'd just been Chloe's annoying and kinda dumb cousin, then I could have found her amusing but she was supposed to grow up to be THE Lois Lane and the kind of flaws they gave her were deal breakers for me. Clark always had the hero in him and Lex always had a sinister side, but Lois should have had a keen mind and boundless curiosity, but nope, she got the cocky attitude without the brains or the interest to back it up.

And yeah, Spell is very entertaining on rewatch. I also love Thirst from season five for the some of the same campy reasons.

GHScorpiosRule · January 20, 2017

"Spell" is just painful for me to watch because Clark is such a horrid dancer.

I fast forward any and all scenes when Lana is her Witch Ancestor, because Kristen is so horribly bad and not in a good way when she's speaking Latin. The way she moves her mouth just makes me cringe, and her French just sounds so...pretentious.

I hated Lois's introduction because she was obnoxious and acted as if she had every right to walk into Clark's home and demand to see him-even though she knew he had amnesia. Her voice was grating and strident, and ugh...just everything about her was nails on a chalkboard. The way she just invited herself to move in and took over Clark's room and just...everything.??

BkWurm1 · January 20, 2017

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Spell" is just painful for me to watch because Clark is such a horrid dancer.

Hee! That's half that fun.

16 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I fast forward any and all scenes when Lana is her Witch Ancestor, because Kristen is so horribly bad and not in a good way when she's speaking Latin. The way she moves her mouth just makes me cringe, and her French just sounds so...pretentious.

I hated Lois's introduction because she was obnoxious and acted as if she had every right to walk into Clark's home and demand to see him-even though she knew he had amnesia. Her voice was grating and strident, and ugh...just everything about her was nails on a chalkboard. The way she just invited herself to move in and took over Clark's room and just...everything.??

I've heard that before about KK's accent. I'm happy to not know either Latin or French. Nice to save a little misery.

With Lois, I was ok with her demanding to see him even though she knew he had amnesia because he was her only lead. She was following Chloe's instructions and I was pretty appreciative of how much she cared about Chloe and was sympathetic enough to overlook some of her more tunnel vision choices. I also thought the bursting into the bathroom was amusing because she just didn't see Clark like that. It seemed to me that she wasn't trying to be rude, just was used to doing things differently. I also thought at first that she was going to be written with the brain to back up her ego.

See that's the thing that the show runners didn't get. Lois Lane all grown up has a right to be kind of a smart ass and cocky because she's proven herself. Lois Lane on Smallville proved instead over and over that she was all hot air with nothing of substance.

So the things that I was ok with at first soon became unbearable since she didn't have the chops to back them up. And she also no longer had the excuse of grief or desperation. Basically, as we got to know her, I found her intolerable. But somehow, I can still watch those first two episodes and not hate her. (The first one more than the second)

NorthangerAbby · January 20, 2017

These forums are a tough place for anyone who doesn't ship Chloe x Clark and likes Lois or Lana. At first I didn't even want to post but then realized discussion forums are better when people are allowed to express dissenting views.

I love Lois and love Clark x Lois. She is very hard to like initially, and that is part of what makes her a complex and interesting character. She has a lot of characteristics that people usually praise in men but are wary of in women, like ambition, assertiveness, self-confidence, boldness, directness and so on. I'm not claiming that's why people dislike her, but it's probably one reason why she can put people off. She's a woman who lives fully in the present, which is why I think she's great complement to Clark, who often clings to the past or worries about the future. She's got a huge heart and a lot of what makes her abrasive can be seen as attempts to hide her vulnerabilities. Lois is terrified of being vulnerable.

Clark wasn't in love with Chloe. He just wasn't. As many young people who are close friends with someone of the opposite sex do, he had moments where he thought he might have more than platonic feelings for her and wondered if he was attracted to her, but she was nearly always the aggressor and always felt so much more than he did or could. Unreciprocated love is hard to go through in life and sometimes hard to watch as a viewer but it's something that many of us can relate to. I guess it's unpopular given the general tenor of these threads to think of Chloe's love for Clark as unreciprocated, but that's how I see it. He has moments when he thinks that he might care for her as more than a friend, but ultimately it can't even be compared to his love for Lana and then Lois. I like Chloe, but the character was much better served by moving on from Clark and allowing herself to develop feelings for other people. I enjoy watching her a lot more during the latter half of the series.

I love every season of this series. They all have their share of issues and episodes that I'll skip, but I think the show is much better than critics give it credit for.

BkWurm1 · January 20, 2017

3 hours ago, NorthangerAbby said:

I love Lois and love Clark x Lois. She is very hard to like initially, and that is part of what makes her a complex and interesting character. She has a lot of characteristics that people usually praise in men but are wary of in women, like ambition, assertiveness, self-confidence, boldness, directness and so on. I'm not claiming that's why people dislike her, but it's probably one reason why she can put people off.

For me, the problem wasn't that she had ambition or was assertive, bold, direct or was filled with self-confidence - you've basically described Chloe IMO. My problem was that Lois was was assertive and bold and ambitious without the skill or understanding or frequently the justification for her behavior. I love Lois Lane in pretty much all other media, but this version was a huge disappointment. She had the bluster but not the brains and her ambition was frequently shown to be fueled by desire for fame or happened when opportunity literally fell in her lap, not for any more noble reason, not even curiosity or a thirst for answers.

Her ambition was a shallow thing. She wasn't willing to put the work in to get where she wanted to go. She didn't go college, she didn't apprentice with anyone. She didn't even read newspapers. She was willing to poach stories and even make them up. And then she was perfectly fine with risking anything she'd accomplished by sleeping with her boss. We can debate forever if she was given special treatment or not, but even the appearance of sleeping her way to her job should have moved her to protect her reputation and credibility and instead, she treated both like they weren't important.

This was supposed to be THE Lois Lane and she was a huge disappointment to me.

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She's a woman who lives fully in the present, which is why I think she's great complement to Clark, who often clings to the past or worries about the future. She's got a huge heart and a lot of what makes her abrasive can be seen as attempts to hide her vulnerabilities. Lois is terrified of being vulnerable.

Clark should worry about the future and frankly, he was pretty terrible about doing anything about it until it was pretty much on him. It's a weak spot of his. I'd actually say that Chloe was a much better partner in handling the future. She did look ahead and tried to head off problems before they overwhelmed. She was proactive even when Clark refused to be about the Kandorians, about Lex's search for the Traveler, and about making the loose affilation of heroes into something efficient and safe. Clark's resistance to planning for the future led to Lex crashing the Fortress down around him, to Clark using his heat vision to bring down a sky scraper to dispose of some sun panels and nearly losing the world to Darkseide. I can't say that Lois living in the present is a good thing, especially since she had to be instructed that Clark even needed a life outside of the hero gig.

Clark has a bad habit of trying to go it alone and I found the way the show ended, it seemed to say he was doubling down on that since Lois was so very willing to assume he was this god like being with all the answers when in truth Clark was at his best when he let others in to help and at his worst when he shut them out.

I see Clark as ending the series very alone and isolated and left with Lois who just didn't seem to be the right fit for him since once she found out he was the Blur, she stopped challenging him on any decision. She became a rubber stamp. But it's not just Lois who is a bad fit for what Clark needs, Clark is never going to be able to put her above all else and that was the one thing that she said she needed. So she's out of luck there.

I don't dispute that Lois loved her family but I haven't seen this big heart outside of those in her immediate circle. I just didn't get an indication of her deeply caring about people or the world in general. Clark actually said of Chloe that she cared more about other people than anyone else he knew. That's not how Lois was portrayed or viewed by others.

I also don't agree that she was hiding all these vulnerabilities behind an abrasive behavior. She was raised on military bases and given a lot of responsibility at a young age by a father that demanded a lot. She was who she was. The abrasive quality was part of her personality and she was abrupt and dismissive and abrasive even when there was nothing at risk to be vulnerable about. Like on campus when she was drinking the quarterback under the table just to win. Or when she viewed Clark as just a pseudo brother and liked to tease him like any sibling relationship. Or when she was insulting toward Chloe accusing her of not being trust worthy with her Green Arrow Bandit story. Or when she blurted out insensitive comments on a mike when Alicia Baker walked in with Clark. Lois more than anything was blunt and abrasive because that was her habit and her personality.

And really, for the last couple seasons, not even the show runners felt it was a coping mechanism since they wrote out her more abrasive manner even while they allowed her to more openly display her emotions.

So either her time with the therapist was really helpful or the sudden personality change and willingness to display her vulnerabilities (in a manner that was a lot more in keeping in how Chloe had been written) was just another example of her failure as a character since instead of allowing her to remain true to character or allowing her natural growth, the new show runners just kept trying to retcon her personality in order to fit. So it's a fail for me and I just can't give her credit or excuse her behavior on the grounds that she was shielding her vulnerabilities since in the end, the writers in order to make her more workable as a character, just dropped that altogether.

That combo of being a deep disappointment from season 4-8 and (and scattered afterwards as well) and then the series of retcon's to her - both professionally and personality wise - while still at the end of the series managing to make her fundamentally wrong in her understanding of who Clark was and what he needed, make it impossible to ever root for her as Lois Lane.

The series wrote that Clark fell in love with her, but it did not show me why or even how or when. So I have no trouble not being concerned if the show also didn't show Clark madly in love with Chloe because that was just a writing choice. I was shown that he loved and admired and respected and relied on her. What I got shown and explained with the Chlark relationship remains so much deeper and richer than either Lana or especially Lois.

Clark wasn't shown to have gone that direction, of following through with his feelings for Chloe, but the show never told me that he couldn't or wouldn't have fallen in love with her.

In the end the biggest reason why it seems he didn't was Because Comics, not based on characterization.

Edited January 20, 2017 by BkWurm1

DittyDotDot · January 20, 2017

3 hours ago, NorthangerAbby said:

These forums are a tough place for anyone who doesn't ship Chloe x Clark and likes Lois or Lana. At first I didn't even want to post but then realized discussion forums are better when people are allowed to express dissenting views.

I love Lois and love Clark x Lois. She is very hard to like initially, and that is part of what makes her a complex and interesting character. She has a lot of characteristics that people usually praise in men but are wary of in women, like ambition, assertiveness, self-confidence, boldness, directness and so on. I'm not claiming that's why people dislike her, but it's probably one reason why she can put people off. She's a woman who lives fully in the present, which is why I think she's great complement to Clark, who often clings to the past or worries about the future. She's got a huge heart and a lot of what makes her abrasive can be seen as attempts to hide her vulnerabilities. Lois is terrified of being vulnerable.

Clark wasn't in love with Chloe. He just wasn't. As many young people who are close friends with someone of the opposite sex do, he had moments where he thought he might have more than platonic feelings for her and wondered if he was attracted to her, but she was nearly always the aggressor and always felt so much more than he did or could. Unreciprocated love is hard to go through in life and sometimes hard to watch as a viewer but it's something that many of us can relate to. I guess it's unpopular given the general tenor of these threads to think of Chloe's love for Clark as unreciprocated, but that's how I see it. He has moments when he thinks that he might care for her as more than a friend, but ultimately it can't even be compared to his love for Lana and then Lois. I like Chloe, but the character was much better served by moving on from Clark and allowing herself to develop feelings for other people. I enjoy watching her a lot more during the latter half of the series.

I love every season of this series. They all have their share of issues and episodes that I'll skip, but I think the show is much better than critics give it credit for.

I love dissenting views. It's not really a conversation without them! ;)

You know, I don't really care who Clark was with. I'm just not a shipper. I would've been fine with Clark and Lana, Clark and Chloe or Clark and Lois--all three characters made a certain amount of sense with Clark, IMO, and all three actresses had a certain amount of chemistry with Welling--I just wanted the show to commit to whatever road they decided to go down.

TBH, I didn't have a problem with Lana or Lana and Clark together, just the on-again/off-again the show did ad nauseum. I was tired of it by S2 and supremely irritated by it by S7.

And, The only problem I had with Lois and Clark together was it seemed rather underdeveloped. It just didn't seem like they had enough time together when he suddenly declared his undying love for her at the start of...was it S8 or S9? I have a hard time keeping those two seasons straight in my head. Anyway, it was a bit of an adjustment, but it did seem to work for me in the end.

As to Lois herself, it took me some time to warm up to her. Not so much because of her pushiness or anything like that, I just didn't understand why they had her on the show at first. It seemed to me, she had no real purpose other than they got the rights to the character and didn't want to turn it down. IMO, she was a very thin character they just didn't know what to do with until much later.

I totally agree with you about Chloe. It was far better for her character to see her grow up and move on from her high school infatuation to a real friendship with Clark. Too bad they didn't do that with Clark and Lana much sooner too...IMO.

rue721 · January 21, 2017

12 hours ago, NorthangerAbby said:

Clark wasn't in love with Chloe. He just wasn't. As many young people who are close friends with someone of the opposite sex do, he had moments where he thought he might have more than platonic feelings for her and wondered if he was attracted to her, but she was nearly always the aggressor and always felt so much more than he did or could.

I agree with this...although I think that Clark arguably isn't able to love anybody. Well, except for his dad. He really loved Jonathan. But otherwise, he never seemed to feel anything strongly enough that I could actually call it "love." Or even hate. I mean, he couldn't maintain a grudge against LIONEL of all people. The man who pretty literally got his (Clark's) beloved father killed, waged an endless campaign to get into his (Clark's) mom's bed, and even usurped Jor El as Clark's link to Krypton.

Hey, thinking about it now, isn't that pretty close to the storyline of Hamlet? I mean with Martha as Gertrude, Lionel as Claudius, and Clark as Hamlet? Clark even had his dead father's ghost show up and tell him to kill Lionel! Only, in the case of Hamlet, the whole damn play is about how tortured and tormented Hamlet is by the whole situation, and how it destroys him, and everybody ends up killing each other. But Clark meanwhile seems to feel nothing much! He certainly is never driven to murder or suicide.

Anyway, so I think Clark's never-ending crush on Lana was BECAUSE she was so distant and aloof. Clark isn't that capable of strong emotions or intimacy. So of course the girl of his dreams is Lana, who he literally can't be himself around and who he literally can barely speak to (for years and years).

And what's ridiculous is that even Clark and Lana's relationship (initially) died a painful death when he wouldn't trust her with his secret. I mean, when LANA of all people thinks you're too distant, you really need to step up your game, emotionally.

I think that Chloe's frustration with Clark was the same as nearly everyone else's was -- he couldn't open up to her, he couldn't reciprocate her feelings and trust. I think their relationship would have been an exercise in frustration just like his other relationships were.

My point is that Clark seems like a really awful boyfriend! So I'm not trying to ship him with anybody, really. He'd be maddening to be in a relationship with. I mean, thank goodness he found Lois, I guess. She was really the only character who didn't outgrow Clark and move on, so I guess it makes sense that they got stuck with each other in the end.

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

My problem was that Lois was was assertive and bold and ambitious without the skill or understanding or frequently the justification for her behavior. I love Lois Lane in pretty much all other media, but this version was a huge disappointment. She had the bluster but not the brains and her ambition was frequently shown to be fueled by desire for fame or happened when opportunity literally fell in her lap, not for any more noble reason, not even curiosity or a thirst for answers.

I liked that she was such a heel. TBH I thought it was the most charming thing about her!

My favorite thing about Lois was that she was so terrible at reading people. It was her defining trait IMO. And she's got that in common with Clark, too, I guess. Although Lois was even worse than he was, and with less of an excuse, being as she's not literally an alien.

But yeah, she was dull. No complexity, no depth, no contradictions -- which means no humanity, really.

I think she was meant to be a foil to Clark somehow. Like, even more Clark than Clark. Even more of a Big Dumb Alien, even more lacking in both foresight and insight. Etc. For me, she never really jelled as a character, though.

Clark was already basically just a foil -- to all the Meteor Freaks and other weirdo characters around him. He didn't have a whole lot of depth or humanity to him, he was always very bland, but the other characters were always so intense that the show worked better that way IMO. Plus, Clark was an alien, and had superpowers, and was generally a pretty nice guy, so his blandness was forgivable IMO. (Plus, Tom Welling was/is kind of blindingly handsome, IMO, and that helped camouflage Clark's blandness really well, too!). But a foil to a foil? I dunno. I don't think that was ever going to work.

And that's what Lois was, IMO -- a foil to a foil -- and that's why she didn't work.

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Clark should worry about the future and frankly, he was pretty terrible about doing anything about it until it was pretty much on him.

Clark worried a lot about the future, I think. He seemed constantly worried that things would spin out of control and some unnamed terrible thing would happen to him because of it. But instead of doing anything about his fears about the future, he just wedged himself as deeply in denial as he could. Clark was exceptionally good at ignoring things he didn't want to see or know.

It wasn't just bad things he ignored, either. He ignored Lex keeping his secret in Belle Reve, for one.

I found Clark's willful ignorance baffling, TBH.

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I see Clark as ending the series very alone and isolated and left with Lois who just didn't seem to be the right fit for him since once she found out he was the Blur, she stopped challenging him on any decision. She became a rubber stamp. But it's not just Lois who is a bad fit for what Clark needs, Clark is never going to be able to put her above all else and that was the one thing that she said she needed. So she's out of luck there.

I agree.

But I don't think that Lois or Clark were really capable of closer relationships -- with anyone. Clark needed someone who didn't care to look deeply into or at anything, even herself. Curiosity and imagination were anathema to Clark. And Lois needed someone who would keep her out of trouble without ever getting sick of her or fed up with her. Like a very, very sanded-down version of her dad. (Because IMO Lois was a perpetual kid. Her personality seemed basically identical to a tomboy nine-year-old).

So in a way, I think they were pretty perfect for each other? Because they had complementary weaknesses/hangups.

BkWurm1 · January 22, 2017

21 hours ago, rue721 said:

although I think that Clark arguably isn't able to love anybody.

21 hours ago, rue721 said:

But I don't think that Lois or Clark were really capable of closer relationships -- with anyone. Clark needed someone who didn't care to look deeply into or at anything, even herself. Curiosity and imagination were anathema to Clark. And Lois needed someone who would keep her out of trouble without ever getting sick of her or fed up with he

I don't agree that he isn't capable of love or being in love, but I do tend to look at Clark and think he started closing his emotions off so that he stopped letting himself feel very deeply. And so yeah, by the time Lois became his object of affection, he was looking for someone that would mostly stay out of his business. I just tend to think that he ended up going that route out of fear.

A few kinds of fear actually. Fear of someone he loved getting hurt of course, but also fear of mistaking obsession for love and how that blinded him to his larger responsibilities (Lana) and then his biggest worry, fear of letting his feelings put the world at risk. It was just easier if the person in his life wasn't that connected to what really mattered in his life.

But I think that was just his fear talking and that eventually his choices would lead him to feel really alone.

I'm going to take the question of if Clark ever loved/was in love with Chloe back to the relationship thread.

Edited January 22, 2017 by BkWurm1

GHScorpiosRule · January 22, 2017

22 hours ago, rue721 said:

I agree with this...although I think that Clark arguably isn't able to love anybody. Well, except for his dad. He really loved Jonathan. But otherwise, he never seemed to feel anything strongly enough that I could actually call it "love." Or even hate. I mean, he couldn't maintain a grudge against LIONEL of all people. The man who pretty literally got his (Clark's) beloved father killed, waged an endless campaign to get into his (Clark's) mom's bed, and even usurped Jor El as Clark's link to Krypton.

Hey, thinking about it now, isn't that pretty close to the storyline of Hamlet? I mean with Martha as Gertrude, Lionel as Claudius, and Clark as Hamlet? Clark even had his dead father's ghost show up and tell him to kill Lionel!

Only, in the case of Hamlet, the whole damn play is about how tortured and tormented Hamlet is by the whole situation, and how it destroys him, and everybody ends up killing each other. But Clark meanwhile seems to feel nothing much! He certainly is never driven to murder or suicide.

I think that Chloe's frustration with Clark was the same as nearly everyone else's was -- he couldn't open up to her, he couldn't reciprocate her feelings and trust.

No. That wasn't Jonathan's ghost. It was Brainiac pretending to be Jonathan's ghost. And since Martha never married Lionel, let alone have that kind of relationship with him, I disagree with the Hamlet comparison. It was clear to me that he loved both his parents; deeply. "Fever," "Solitude" are two examples.

As for Chloe-until the ninth season, she was the only one Clark confided in and trusted in completely. And I didn't see him as he couldn't reciprocate the same feelings, but that he did, but refused to act on them because one: he believed Chloe's lie about how they should just be friends; two: he didn't want to lose her friendship, so told her and himself that he didn't feel the same. And three, he's a Big Dumb Alien.

Edited January 22, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

BkWurm1 · January 22, 2017

So here's something that I've keeps going through my mind to explain the whole "Clark Kent is dead" weirdness at the end of season eight. I think at the end of season eight, it's almost seems that Clark gives up Chloe because he has too strong of feelings for her and that he's afraid attachment will stop him from being what the world needs.

Over in the Ship Thread I laid out the spots where I felt like Clark was this close to being in love with Chloe but that for reasons, he hadn't let himself (a long winded way of saying what I see GHScorpiosRule posted, lol) and I ended with his actions and behavior toward Chloe after she ran off to save Clark from Davis. Clark was losing it in a way that I just haven't seen with Lois or Lana.

His feelings were not that of just a friend IMO. He's all over the place. Afraid, angry, jealous, desperate. He vows to spend every second searching for her. Chloe says he's not meant to save just her but the whole world and Clark scoffs at the idea that the way for him to do it is without her. She hangs up, he goes all ClarkSMASH on the awful pink file cabinets. He loses control in a way we don't see without a red meteor rock on his finger.

And this was in the same season where he flat out refused to let Chloe die let alone kill her - even when he was told not destroying the vessel would lead to Brainiac destroying the world, possibly universe. So he chooses risking the world over losing Chloe.

Back to the end of the season. Chloe goes off with Davis to save Clark but when Clark finds the fake version of Chloe, he admitted she'd been right about trying to save Davis. Frankly, the way he was treating her and keeping her close, I really went into the season finale thinking that Clark was figuring out that he'd crossed that line and was in love with Chloe. Fake Chloe dies and he goes back to searching for Chloe.

One of the Legion guys travels a 1000 years back and blames saving Chloe for Clark now dying to stop Doomsday when he faces him. And then blames Chloe for Davis being immune to kryptonite and unstoppable. (He's kind of an asshat) Clark still says he doesn't regret saving her. Oliver and Co betray Clark cause they want to kill Davis (everyone ignoring that they wouldn't be able to) so since Clark is tied up with Kryptonite, when Chloe to figures out his plan, she uses the Black K on Davis and Doomsday is released.

Clark fights the dude in a costume, Davis wakes up in the Watchtower, finds out that nope, Chloe had been doing it all for Clark and kills JImmy, and then Jimmy before he dies takes out Davis. Clark somehow survives the blast but blames himself for Jimmy dying and Lois being missing. He goes to Chloe and well here is the last bit of dialogue.

Quote

Clark: I've always tried to forget I was an alien. Or a creature. I've always tried to pretend I was human. I was raised to believe it was my Kryptonian part that was dangerous, Chloe, but I was wrong. It's my human side. It... it's the side that gets attached, the side that makes decisions based on emotions. That's my enemy. And Davis proved that to me.

Chloe: So, because of some psychopath, you're gonna cut the rest of us out of your life? Clark... human emotion is what made you the hero that you are today.

Clark: They're what's stopping me from being the hero I could be. It's what the world needs now.

Chloe: What are you saying?

Clark: Clark Kent is dead. Goodbye, Chloe.

Clark says his emotions are what he needs to cut out because they'd put the world in danger. Rokk, the Legion guy tells Clark everything that goes wrong is because of his feelings that led him to save Chloe. We also have Clark coming around to agreeing with Chloe that Davis was worth saving. But after Davis killed Jimmy and others were hurt and lost, he now decides that he needs to stop feeling anything. When all those previous feelings are revolving around Chloe.

Like I said before, I went into the episode expecting great things for Chloe and Clark but instead of the season ending with Clark in love with Chloe, he completely shuts down all his emotions, walks, away from being human himself.

So much of season nine is a retcon but putting that aside for now and just going with the theory, Clark comes back fixated on Lois while keeping Chloe at a distance. For some reason it's safe to have feelings for Lois, someone that he never has any intention of telling the truth until he's told it's fate. She's safe because not only doesn't she really get involved that much in his hero life unless it directly affects her, she thinks he's pretty much always right so less influence, and the big one IMO, that he never really had feelings as strong for her that would be a problem in the first place.

Of course I remain convinced that it's the wrong choice because as Clark said in the second to last episode of season eight:

Quote

Clark: Lex did teach me one thing. The word "fate" is used by people who've lost sight of who they are.

So Clark by his own words practically admits Lois was a mistake. Lol.

Edited January 22, 2017 by BkWurm1

amensisterfriend · January 22, 2017

So much great stuff to comment on!

Whenever I read about Lois, I wonder how much of my own relative dislike of her is about Lois herself and how much is because they (IM possibly unpopular O!) had already let us get to know a character who, to me, WAS Lois Lane as I had always envisioned her---the vibrancy, boldness, energy, passion, snark, insatiable curiosity, independence, sharpness, impulsiveness, belief in truth and justice, eagerness to help even when it means interfering, the unique mixture of borderline cockiness and genuine vulnerability and insecurity, etc. So Chloe (whose name even sounds vaguely like Lois's, especially when the characters are called "Chlo" and "Lo"!) WAS Lois to me. I get that I shouldn't have let myself feel that way, but I couldn't help it. As a result, by the time the real Lois showed up, she (Lois) seemed redundant at best and unlikable at worst. Because Smallville's Lois, IMO, was pointlessly similar to Chloe in some ways yet a less likable and interesting version of her---more genuinely conceited, condescending, obnoxious, flighty, self-absorbed and even with less of a real interest in journalism and investigation than Chloe had.

And while Chloe had a genuine closeness, trust and rapport with Clark, Lois and Clark had this kind of exhausting antagonism and, IMO, just an inability and unwillingness to connect on pretty much any level. As I said in an above post, I liked her introduction in S4...and, ironically, those first couple of episodes were probably the best the Lois/Clark dynamic ever was for me. If anything, it seemed to regress rather than organically evolve. I get that the show was going for a romantic comedy-esque "love/hate!" dynamic between them, but it came off like genuine mutual annoyance far more often than not to me, much more of an older and allegedly more worldly sister having to tolerate a goofy younger brother who she doesn't like or respect but is stuck with than it seemed like two potential lovers. Maybe, MAYBE, a grudging affection developed, but I never saw it as a genuinely deep connection, let alone love, and saw surprisingly little romantic passion there on either side. People talk about the imbalance between Clark and Chloe because she was the one to always feel more strongly or at least show it (and I agree with that to some extent!), but to me there was a bigger imbalance between Lois and Clark---Lois seemed to genuinely believe she was superior to him in virtually every way, and not as a cover up for insecurity, but because she just really didn't think he was good enough for her, and not just as a romantic partner. She repeatedly dismisses and blows off his advice and point of view, his skills and abilities, etc. And I can never, ever shake the feeling that if Clark hadn't happened to also be a superhero, she would never have been remotely interested.

I will always love you guys for explaining Clark's blandness and seeming lack of depth and emotion by reminding me that he's an alien, so it may have been deliberate rather than the result of relatively subpar writing and/or acting. And I agree that he had to deliberately repress a certain amount of emotion, openness and candor in order to maintain his dual identity and carry through with his mission. That said, though, I ended up feeling relieved that Chloe ended up with Oliver, who was so much more vibrant, dynamic and alive. So while Chloe is, IMO, a very flawed character, I really do think she deserved better than Clark ever could or would give her, which seems to be unpopular, at least among those here who love Chloe as much as I do :)

Other UOs:

The more I read analysis about Lana, the more I get what they may have been going for, find her a potentially interesting character outside of her tiresome relationship with Clark and take a twisted enjoyment in her dynamic with Lex. Unpopularly enough, I will take Lana over Lois in a heartbeat. And I do think she and Chloe COULD have had an oddly touching and mutually beneficial friendship. What we actually got felt forced and pointless, IMO, but they COULD have had one :)

I'll always have a soft spot for Jimmy Olsen and Chloe's relationship with him.

It's been said before, but seriously, I will always love Justin Hartley's Arrow FAR more than Stephen Amell's, which seems to be very unpopular :)

Edited January 22, 2017 by amensisterfriend

BkWurm1 · January 22, 2017

3 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

It's been said before, but seriously, I will always love Justin Hartley's Arrow FAR more than Stephen Amell's, which seems to be very unpopular :)

For me, they are so different I hesitate to even compare them.

NorthangerAbby · January 23, 2017

I feel badly that my previous post may have made it sound like I don't love Chloe, so I wanted to clarify that I really love her. If asked to name just two favorite Smallville characters, I'd probably pick her and Lex. I don't necessarily ship her romantically with Clark, but I love their friendship. I think Chloe has a certain degree of chemistry with almost everyone - Clark, Oliver, Jimmy, Davis, and even Lex. Like others have said, she's so lively and vibrant that she just sparks with whoever she's sharing scenes with.

Quote

It's been said before, but seriously, I will always love Justin Hartley's Arrow FAR more than Stephen Amell's, which seems to be very unpopular :)

I love JH's Arrow. He and Chloe were one of my favorite things about the later seasons.

I haven't been around long enough to know if the following opinions are unpopular, but I figured I would throw them out there since it's just fun to talk about this show.

The first three seasons are my favorites and the ones I watch the most. I'm not sure if it's just sentiment, but there's something about them that still gets to me. I love the characters so much then and freak-of-the-week stories make me so happy. I prefer the show centered around the Kent farm and even cheesy school stuff rather than Metropolois and The Daily Planet. The biggest reason I love the first three seasons may be that I love when Clark and Lex are allies more than they're adversaries and Lex is still so ethically grey rather than villainous.The writing for some of those Lex x Lionel and Lex x Clark scenes is so great then and one reason I feel like the show is much better overall than most people seem to. It's interesting that I'm a Lois fan but still think the seasons before her arrival are my favorites. Maybe I love her less than I thought, lol. I love every season and own them all, but if I could save just three, I think the first three are the ones I'd grab.
The general consensus seems to be that Welling's acting improves as the series progresses, but I love him the most at the beginning. The writing for Clark was probably better then as well. To me Welling worked better as an awkward and emotionally repressed high school student than a reporter and superhero.
I roll my eyes through the scenes about Jonathan running for senate. I know the show did worse stories but that one just annoys me for some reason. I was hoping he'd drop out or lose. I also wasn't that sad when he died despite enjoying him at the beginning of the series.
The pilot of this show is one of my top four or five favorite pilots of any series, and I've watched hundreds because I'm a television addict with no life at all.
Lionel x Martha could have been really interesting. It's warped and I understand why some hate the thought of it, but it could potentially have been a lot of fun to watch.
I like both Lois and Oliver but didn't like Lois x Oliver and hated when the show made it seem like he hadn't gotten over her even a couple of seasons later. Their relationship didn't seem to have any substance.
I can't remember who else said this and can't quote properly anyway, but I enjoyed Clark x Alicia too. It's one of the season 3 episodes I've seen the most and I was happy when she returned in season 4.
Lana x Lex > Lana x Clark . Also, I don't hate Lana, but I do think the writing for her was worse than for any other character except poor Pete.
Every time I watch the show again, there's a tiny part of me that thinks maybe this time Lex will be redeemed. Every...damn...time.
On balance, I thought Lex was a better friend to Clark than Clark was to Lex those first few seasons.
As you all can tell, I'm a big fan and think the show deserves more love or at least less hate among viewers and critics. Not saying any of the complaints here or elsewhere are invalid, but for me the good outweighs the bad.

BkWurm1 · January 23, 2017

3 hours ago, NorthangerAbby said:

I like both Lois and Oliver but didn't like Lois x Oliver and hated when the show made it seem like he hadn't gotten over her even a couple of seasons later. Their relationship didn't seem to have any substance.

I can't remember who else said this and can't quote properly anyway, but I enjoyed Clark x Alicia too. It's one of the season 3 episodes I've seen the most and I was happy when she returned in season 4.

Every time I watch the show again, there's a tiny part of me that thinks maybe this time Lex will be redeemed. Every...damn...time.

On balance, I thought Lex was a better friend to Clark than Clark was to Lex those first few seasons.

As you all can tell, I'm a big fan and think the show deserves more love or at least less hate among viewers and critics. Not saying any of the complaints here or elsewhere are invalid, but for me the good outweighs the bad.

Alicia Baker was a good character and she worked I think with Clark. I wasn't looking for her to be with Clark long term but I remain bummed that she died. It seemed like such a waste. She did though make it into a Chlark fixit fic of mine where I made sure she lived, Lol.

I agree that Lex was a better friend for a long time and I also understand your repeated hope that THIS TIME Lex will be redeemed. I have the same reaction to Chloe and my one time hopes for Chlois. I know how it ended and every time I still get sucked in by the same things. Honestly I think both Lex's redemption and Chloe ending up revealed by the end of the series as Lois Lane would have been the better story.

I liked Lois and Oliver together. I get that in the scheme of things there relationship wasn't that long but it was the first time that I felt she worked as a character in a long time. I did like the Chlo/Lo cousin vibe but even that was more Chloe being amused and tolerant in the beginning and later I was so overwhelmed with how much I hated the retcons and how they were writing Chloe away from her talents to be very tolerant of Lois.

I didn't like Lois with Clark because there was an imbalance between them. Lois always acted like she was above him or was doing him a favor to be his friend (and later girlfriend) And Clark always seemed to act like she was in the way. (Which worked with their sibling vibe but not IMO anything else)

Oliver though could handle Lois's attitude. He even liked it. They treated each other as equals and seemed to have the same sensibilities and likes and that made me like her better, not having to cringe as I watched her. And I thought that her attachment to him and vice versa felt genuine. I also thought that Lois was good for him. And when she found out about him being the Green Arrow, I was really amused by their interaction and her antics.

I didn't hate Oliver and Chloe in the later seasons but I was not a fan of him and how he treated her or viewed her in season eight and kind of hold a grudge from that. Plus in season ten he was just clueless about why she left, deciding it was because keeping his secret was too hard which was just so wrong on so many levels it told me that he really didn't know her or understand her as well as he claimed. And Chloe was holding back emotionally during nine and ten. I can't believe that they were this perfect couple that some see.

Smallivlle has some really great parts that I will always love but I ended up hating the final sum of it's parts.

NorthangerAbby · January 23, 2017

Quote

She did though make it into a Chlark fixit fic of mine where I made sure she lived, Lol.

Could you please link me to your fics so that I can read them and give positive feedback? I always wanted to write one where Lex is redeemed but probably won't be able to figure out a coherent plot lol. I know you don't like Clois, but aside from that one ship we both love most of the same characters so I'm sure I'll love whatever you've written.

You all have me thinking a lot about Chloe, Lois and their similarities and differences. I love both characters but I do very much understand the point of view that Lois is a more conceited, jaded and abrasive version of Chloe in certain ways. It's particularly interesting to me that they made Chloe so passionate about journalism while also giving her a lot of qualities that viewers associate with Lois Lane. I have to admit that it does make me wonder if the writers initially planned to make Chloe the actual Lois Lane of this series. At the least it seems as if they may have wanted to keep their options open so that they could go that route if the series didn't last long enough for them to introduce a character named Lois Lane.

NorthangerAbby · January 24, 2017

Another less popular opinion I've forgotten to mention is that I actually like Clark a lot as a character. He's stiff and awkward, but that's kind of endearing and, as has been pointed out, works when you consider that he's an alien. He was more likable through the first half of the series than the second, but in my experience that's true of most characters in most series. There are so many "anti-heroes" and reforming bad boys on tv shows that I actually appreciate this show centering around a guy who is so decent and tries so earnestly to do the right thing. He has flaws but is a refreshingly different type of character and one that I liked watching even though he could be annoyingly dense.

BkWurm1 · January 24, 2017

11 hours ago, NorthangerAbby said:

Could you please link me to your fics so that I can read them and give positive feedback? I always wanted to write one where Lex is redeemed but probably won't be able to figure out a coherent plot lol. I know you don't like Clois, but aside from that one ship we both love most of the same characters so I'm sure I'll love whatever you've written.

https://www.fanfiction.net/~bkwurm1

https://archiveofourown.org/users/BkWurm1/works

http://two-of-us.svtometropolis.com/viewuser.php?uid=110

I hope you are able to find something you enjoy. Thank You.

Fanfiction.net has most of my works apart from a few of the more smutty variety. Look to Archive of our Own for the Hawkman/Chloe trilogy (a very smutty aberration that I swear works) or Two of Us for an equally smutty "Clark Kent is Dead" Chlark trilogy.

I tend to write Chlark but I don't think Lois comes out to badly. I may not love her, but Chloe does, so I try to stick to portraying her as clueless rather than unkind.

2 hours ago, NorthangerAbby said:

Another less popular opinion I've forgotten to mention is that I actually like Clark a lot as a character. He's stiff and awkward, but that's kind of endearing and, as has been pointed out, works when you consider that he's an alien. He was more likable through the first half of the series than the second, but in my experience that's true of most characters in most series. There are so many "anti-heroes" and reforming bad boys on tv shows that I actually appreciate this show centering around a guy who is so decent and tries so earnestly to do the right thing. He has flaws but is a refreshingly different type of character and one that I liked watching even though he could be annoyingly dense.

I liked Clark until about five minutes from the end of season eight. Then I despised him like no other character I've ever hated for probably another three years. Now I'm back to enjoying him pretty much til the end of 8 and only hating him through most of season nine. Ten, he's dumb but I don't hate him. Pity him more than a little, but no longer hate him.

NorthangerAbby · January 24, 2017

bkwrm, I will definitely read them all within the next couple of weeks. I thought we could use a thread for fanfiction and just created one for anyone who is interested:

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/52923-smallville-fanfiction/

whateverhappened · January 25, 2017

I'm excited that these discussion threads are active!

My main one is probably that Chlark > Clana > Clois. God, did I hate Lois and Clois. All due respect to people who like them, of course. I really do appreciate different tastes and think it's what makes these places fun. But for me personally, Lois is like a collection of the tropes that I happen to find exceptionaly irritating. She's the 'cool', sassy, bold, down-to-earth tomboy who knows all about sports, rock music, plays Guitar Hero, can drink everyone else under the table and can do everything better than everyone else but is also conveniently sexy and hot and "feminine" in ways that attract every guy in the vicinity. I will buy the theory that a portion of her arrogance was supposed to cover for secret insecurities, but it doesn't make it less obnoxious to me when she's bragging about how many guys have been into her, announcing that of course she should get a raise because she's HER, and treating Clark like a hillbilly and useless gnat who she finds a nuisance until she finds out he's actually an Important and Exciting Hero and therefore possibly worthy of her. It also irks that she didn't even care about being a reporter and suddenly ends up better at it than Chloe, who had a passion and talent for it her whole life.

It's not just that I'm bitter over feeling like Chloe was a much better Lois than the real but lesser Lois, though I do more or less feel that way. To be honest, I would dislike Lois every bit as much even if the character of Chloe Sullivan didn't exist. But -

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but I do very much understand the point of view that Lois is a more conceited, jaded and abrasive version of Chloe in certain ways. It's particularly interesting to me that they made Chloe so passionate about journalism while also giving her a lot of qualities that viewers associate with Lois Lane. I have to admit that it does make me wonder if the writers initially planned to make Chloe the actual Lois Lane of this series. At the least it seems as if they may have wanted to keep their options open so that they could go that route if the series didn't last long enough for them to introduce a character named Lois Lane.

I always wondered about this too! Why else give Chloe the same wiseass, courageous, impulsive, spirited personality, passion for truth and insatiable curiosity, and gift for investigative journalism that Smallville viewers are bound to associate with nearly every canonical version of Lois Lane?

Clana seemed to go on a billion seasons too long, but it doesn't bother me as much. Lana is the perfect damsel in distress, pretty and seemingly sweet but haunted and tragic somehow, and it made sense that a noble savior like Clark wanted to keep rescuing her and would fall in love with the person he imagined her to be. I didn't love them or her, but I will watch their scenes over Lois/Clois any day.

I love Clark for most of the series for reasons that Northanger and others have articulated.

I missed Lex horribly but did like Tess's character, which I think may be unpopular...?

GHScorpiosRule · January 25, 2017

1 hour ago, whateverhappened said:

I'm excited that these discussion threads are active!

Then my job is done!?

I really do like to talk about this show, it seems every year!

1 hour ago, whateverhappened said:

I missed Lex horribly but did like Tess's character, which I think may be unpopular...?

No, that's not unpopular at all. I remember even over on TWoP, she was very popular.

And I think you mean Cassidy's character since Tess is the character? ?

I grew to like her by the final season, but as @BkWurm1 has stated, she was a totally different character by then, to "replace" Chloe! To use Cher's words: "As IF!"

But I loathed her during her first two seasons as my comments in the season threads reflect.?

Edited January 25, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

BkWurm1 · January 25, 2017

36 minutes ago, whateverhappened said:

I always wondered about this too! Why else give Chloe the same wiseass, courageous, impulsive, spirited personality, passion for truth and insatiable curiosity, and gift for investigative journalism that Smallville viewers are bound to associate with nearly every canonical version of Lois Lane?

Clana seemed to go on a billion seasons too long, but it doesn't bother me as much. Lana is the perfect damsel in distress, pretty and seemingly sweet but haunted and tragic somehow, and it made sense that a noble savior like Clark wanted to keep rescuing her and would fall in love with the person he imagined her to be. I didn't love them or her, but I will watch their scenes over Lois/Clois any day.

I love Clark for most of the series for reasons that Northanger and others have articulated.

I missed Lex horribly but did like Tess's character, which I think may be unpopular...?

Yeah, Chloe was too much of what I imagined Lois to be like as a teen for me to not think the show runners at least half planned it that way.

i agree that I find Clana less bothersome than Clois. I can understand why Clark thought he was in love with Lana. Lois was pure light switch writing.

I liked Tess in season eight, but more as a kind of loved to hate her. She was homicidal and at times, unhinged. They toned down her extremes in nine even if she did still think turning the planet over to a genocidal dictator was a good way to save it. And again, I liked her a lot in season ten, but I think if I'd really been deeply invested in her character, I'd have had a hard time with understanding how season 8 Tess and season 10 Tess were the same person.

Sirious Dude · January 25, 2017

I dont see clark so much noble. I used to,but watching smallville trying to cut clark perspective i realized that clark is extremly dumb. Between being good and being dumb the difference is small,but clark is definitely dumb. A lot. Clark is also a real jerk,with everyone.

With chloe,with oliver,with his parents but especially with lana.He is a hero,yes,but he is even able to be a selfish coward,he rather hurt lana with his behaviour than risk getting hurt and being rejected. Because of clark being an animal with her,she ends up in an abusive relationship with lex,she gets corrupted and sweet lana is gone.

All because clark was afraid to be rejected...what kind of a superhero is this? A dumb alien who doesnt even fight for his girl? He should be super smart,yet is not able to even tell a lie,is not able to support the relationship in other ways to compensate for the lack of sex. He doesnt even try to make it work,at the first problem he back off or he break up. How can someone who always choose the easy way to deal with problems,even if that means to deeply hurt someone,be one day superman?

He wasnt protecting lana,he was protecting himself,and lana had to pay the consequence of clark childish and selfish behaviours. Everything bad happened to lana after season 5 is clarks fault. When in "Hidden" he decide to not tell her the truth,and to stay in the relationship,he was being selfish and he lead to what happens to lana in season 6 and 7. Clark was a monster with lana,a really horrible person.

THIS IS NOT SUPERMAN,IS SUPERJERK.Especially when from the emotional unavailable cold and dumbass alien he became the lovely romantic and perfect boyfriend with lois. So what,was lana the problem? He ruined her life and he didnt even loved her like he loved lois? Sometimes this thought reach my mind,but then i realize that its worste. Its clark that truly is stupid,mostly because the writers had to make him act like a jerk to make drama,but they exagerated.

Its like lana said in season 3,if he didnt want to be honest right away,if he has to be a jerk and give up at the first problems,he didnt even had to try.
He cant frustrate lana like he does in season 5,and if he has to be this way,he really shouldnt even START a relationship,cause is cruel.

He kept her in this "does he love me" limbo trough all season 5,and ok,he cant make love,but he could show his love for her in other ways. Then there is the brutal and animalistic break up always in season 5. And more cruel is how he treat lana in second half of season 5, he basically didnt know how to deal with her anymore,so he choose the easy and short way out. He abandoned her without even using some tact,he just washed his hand and pushed her with lex instead of trying to make the relationship work.

He didnt even wait for her to recovery from the heartbreak of him cheating. He just let her go in a way that its not just cruel or sadic,its animal-like. Without thinking,without considering lana mental status,NO,like animals. He rather break up with lana and abandon her,and no matter how hard it was for clark TO DO that,it was doing it that was hard,because matter of fact that was the easiest way to deal with her. He choose the easy way,like a real animal,without thinking of the consequence. This is wrong,he cant just play with people emotion like this,its sadic. And masochist,since 2 ep later he is alone in his loft sadly watching her pic,and that makes me angry because he is not being a hero,he is not protecting lana,he is hiding. He is being A COWARD DUMBASS ALIEN and in doing that,he ruined lana too.

And If lana ends up in an abusive relationship where she will get corrupted and deviated,it doesnt matter,as long as our loved dumb alien doesnt get his feelings hurt. And i know clark wanted to protect lana,but the protection is real just for reckoning,before that,and clark admitted that himself,he was just afraid of being rejected. Is this how a superhero is? He always take the easy way to deal with lana,and the consequence for her are tragic.

He then kept staying in his comfort zone during season 6 while lana gets the worst mental and physical abuse instead of fight and save her from lex. Worst part is that in the meanwhile clark wasnt happy,he suffered in silence complaining about being alone yet didnt do anything to fix that situation. That is COMPLETELY stupid. I know the writers want to make drama,but they made clark look like an horrible person,a real masochist asshole. He breaks up with lana totally messing up her mind,for no real reasons marking the first change in lana, and it truly was unnecessary. Claim is to protect her but then he let her be with lex -knowing how dangerous he was yet not doing nothing real about it because he didnt want to get hurt and basically was being a coward again- that will hurt and corrupt lana. And after all that clark even tells her his secret,so why break up in the first place? LOL Its plan stupid. How can someone be that stupid,and when that someone happens to be the future superman is even more stupid. Basically clark destroyed lana's mental stability just because he was afraid of her reaction,THIS IS SELFISH.

Eventually yes lana will discover that this was also clark's clumsy attempt to protect her,but that doesnt erase the pain that lana suffered,the mental damage was done. Especially the one from the relationship with lex. Not to mention the mental damage that us viewers had with lexana,that really is disturbing to watch. And then, after we see how much of a jerk he was with lana, he turns to lois and is a complete different person,and people even compare the 2 relationships.

Clark treatment of lana for seven seasons is disgusting. How can a dumbass alien like him be superman one day. He wasnt able to express his feelings and to appreciate lana,wasnt able to say a believeable lie and was a hypocritical whiny jerk.

He say he wanted lana to be happy and that he didnt want to hurt her,yet in their relationship doesnt even try to make her happy and not to hurt her. He auto inflict angst to himself,to lana,and to us,just because he is afraid to get hurt and be rejected.

He also is a self centered narcisist,like in season 7 "Wrath". In all that mess,he still is unable to understand how hurt lana was,and the only thing he came out with is that its all his fault,wich is true yeah but instead of blaming himself,he could just focus on lana and try to be sympathethic. Not just because is lana,even if was someone else its clear that she is deeply hurt,so just give some love instead of disappointment.

Funny thing is that i always thought lana treatment of clark in season 5 and 6 was justified but still wrong,now i think it was right and if she wasnt with lex,i would actually even enjoyed watching her shitting on clark.

And there is a moral in clark behaviour. It perfectly match a fable of Aesop "the boy who cried the wolf."

Clark in the past has always lied and used the protection thing as an excuse cause he was afraid to be rejected while he kept lying and treating lana in the worst possible ways,and in "Reckoning" the one time that he really is protecting her,lana simply doesnt believe him anymore. Same later in the season.

The moral is that "This is how liars are rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them". He choose to be a liar,he choose to be dishonest and with his wrong decision and mistakes,he put people in danger and totally ruined lana, both from the show view and from our view.

Im starting to deeply dislike clark,because yes he is a hero but damn he has been a villain too. I dont feel angst with the clana romance, what i feel is anger and disappointment that someone can be that stupid. Especially if that someone one day will be superman.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Sirious Dude

Sirious Dude · January 25, 2017

And i read someone saying lexana is better than clana,but with all of the respect thats not true. And not just because i personally like clark with lana,but because It may actually seems that lexana works better,but its a disfuctional relationship as well. Its even worst,cause lana doesnt actually realize how abusive the relationship is.

Lana was being manipulated by lex. Its called brainwashing,and its not scifi,its not CIA thing,its a real thing. It doesnt happen in a day,its a long process that takes time.

1.Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious,
aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and
replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
or,
2.The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an
advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a
specific belief or motivation.

Thats what lex does with lana, all the time he is like im the good guy,or u cant trust clark,he doesnt trust u,he is a liar,i wouldnt lie,i trust u. This is suggestion,mental manipulation and its untheic and wrong. To make it more understandable,is like lex mentally trained lana. And this is NOT good in any possible ways.
In Italy its called plagio, a crime consisting in an absolute psychological,and eventually physical,domination of a person. The effect of such domination is the annihilation of the subject's freedom and self-determination and the consequent negation of her personality. This is what lex does with lana,since the beginning of season 5 he starts to manipulate her. He manipulate both clark and lana in the second half of season 5 ,he hire a hypnotist and once splitted clark and lana up he starts to seriously work on lana.

He seduce lana with fake honesty and half truth,he says he trust just because he knows how to play her, but in the end he just share what somehow could benefit him. He doesnt really trust her. Like the ship to lure lana,the vaccin to appear like some sorta of humanitarian hero,and the powers wich was just a demonstration of power,he was just strutting. He didnt share the healing power he gained with the vaccin injection cause it wasnt a big deal.

He offers her to stay at the mansion for as much as she needs,and as a guest.Then once she moved in he change cards on the table and starts pressing lana into having a sexual relationship,she didnt want to,she was full of doubts and didnt feel like to do it. He manipulate her to have sex,wich is extremely lol and pathethic,using clark as an emotive weapon to make lana feel stupid,to hurt and mortify her. He literally trap her in the mansion,he starts to really annihilate lana as a person. Starting with the script with lionel, to test her loyalty and instill the sense of protection and devotion to lex,to initiate her to blackmail and threat.

Then there is the control over her life. Negating her to do what she wants to do,controlling who she sees,where she goes,isolating her from anyone else.

The continuos speech about honesty and trust,always throwing clark in the discussion here and there to manipulate lana emotionally. The intimidating long stares. The subduing conversations. Lex made himself the most important person in lana's life,he made her dependent from him. He literally subjugate lana.

In "Static" we can see from lana reaction that she doesnt cry for love,she cries cause she doesnt know what to do without him. Thats dependence. This is what lex did to lana,and i dont blame lana for being with lex,she didnt have a choice. Thats the power of manipulation,its subtle,but its powerfull and u may think ur doing what u want,that u have fee will,but indeeed u dont. Lana thought she was making her decision,but truth is it was lex pulling the strings from behind. She truly was a puppet in lex's hands,despite what she says. Manipulate someone means making him do what u want,while he believes he is making his own decision.

And the only reason people may think lexana is good,its because IN THE APPEARANCE works,but the truth is that is a very abusive relationship,and i honestly think that its also depraved and disgusting. Disturbing actually... Lex is what,30? And lana is barely 18....such a loser too LOL

Lana is unhappy and she wasnt even able to leave lex like chloe or clark warned her to do until she realize by herself what he was doing. Thanks to the fake pregnancy she realize how deeply lex manipulated her,and just then she was able to get out of that illusion,that "great place" she thought she was and beat him at his own game.

Anyways i wouldnt wish this kind of relationship to anyone,not even to my worst enemy.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Sirious Dude

BkWurm1 · January 25, 2017

6 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

i dont blame lana for being with lex,she didnt have a choice.

Of course she had a choice. She made a series of bad ones, but they were still her choices and unless Lex actually locked her up and ran an indoctrination program, then Lana had the freewill the whole time to choose not to get closer to him. To chose not to take his gifts or even his friendship. She didn't have to rely on Lex, she chose to rely on him rather than support herself or turn to her aunt for help.

Eventually Lex did try to con her with the fake baby but even then, people around her kept offering her other options. She had lots of choices, but she wanted the man that Lex sold himself as. Enough to ignore the warning signs and the many warnings from her friends.

Of course Lex tried to make her love him and need him and want him, but she willingly chose to let him try and convince her in the first place. Lex might have been hiding his really bad side, but it's demeaning to Lana to insist she was so hapless that she just had to go along with anything Lex planned for her and had no say in the matter.

Sirious Dude · January 25, 2017

LOL,Dude u dont need an indoctrination program. Lex is sneaky,he played her,he knew how to get closer to lana and clark behaviour helped his game.

What about when he force himself in her apartment,she wanted him out,he over stayed his welcome and started with some subtle suggestion. This is what im talking about dude,this is the manipulation. After clark break up with lana,everything lex has always said to her about clark bacame true. Lex is manipualting the reality,he changed lana's thoughts,obviusly thanks to clark. He is the good guy and clark is the bad guy.

As a friend lex in years proved to be reliable. Clark always went to lex as well. So she rely on him,but she was unaware that lex was the one behind the relationship sabotage,she didnt know he had plan for her. She trusted him,and obv she was wrong. Thats a bad choice yeah,but i mean clark trusted lex as well. He is able to induce that sense in people. And even tho he manipulated to gain her trust, probably trusting him is the only real choice she made. After he gained her trust,he was able to guide the other choice.

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

he had lots of choices, but she wanted the man that Lex sold himself as.

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Enough to ignore the warning signs and the many warnings from her friends.

She had choices but she didnt LOL,again the art of the manipulation is to make someone do what u want,making him believe he is making his own choices. U maybe never met someone like this,but i can assure u i know what im talking about.

I think lana didnt really knew how she got in that relationship. I think thats why when chloe warned her she said they were just friends,she didnt realize the shift lex was giving to their friendship. She found herself from being friend with lex to be in a relationship with him. She was on the rebound and coming out a very bad relationship with clark .She was confused. Lex has always said that she couldnt trust clark. Clark made that true. But lana wouldnt have choose lex if he didnt deceive her. People like lex are pro in do this,he did that with clark too,didnt he? Clark didnt want anything to do with him in the first place,lex slowly introduce himself in clarks life and family.

At that point,yeah maybe she wanted the man lex sold himself for,but its like cheating at school,lex already knew what lana wanted,she was being deceived. Like i said he did seduced her,but he actually manipulated her cause it was part of a bigger plan and because he was using specific scheme to do that. People like this exist,they just find their victim,wich lanas profile match perfectly,lonely with no family,vulnerable. They find their issues and play on those. The choices are guided by the manipulation. The no choice concept is not literal,of course she had other choice,but in fact she didnt.

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

but it's demeaning to Lana to insist she was so hapless that she just had to go along with anything Lex planned for her and had no say in the matter

But its exaclty what happened,dude ep like Rage proves it. Lana wanted to do that charity thing lex negate her to do it. This isnt normal,a partner should never have this influence on the partner life. And wheter u like it or not,in the moment lex negate lana what to do,he is taking control over her. And the subconcious remember this,thats how u annihlate someone personality and free will. In whiter,lex was pressuring her to have sex,she didnt want to. Lex gave her a damn speech about clark,how much she trusted him,and that he is done paying for his mistake. That was manipulatory,A LOT. Emotional,persuasive,and pressuring. Then lana started to think about it, but the decision was already made when lex used clark as an emotive weapon, in lana's mind she compares lex with clark,and this push her to trust lex in the end.

Bond like the one lex created are not easy to cut,simply cause lana didnt know about it. She was living an illusion,of course she was deluded and she was enjoying that,but its just an illusion. There is no love,no happiness. Lex can act like a lovely boyfriend,he can make her devoted and loyal,but its not real love from both of them.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Sirious Dude

BkWurm1 · January 25, 2017

11 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

U maybe never met someone like this,but i can assure u i know what im talking about.

No, I've met people like that. I just saw them for what they were and turned down their candy (metaphorically speaking) and when I was deceived by people, I trusted my friends when they point it out. My friend gets mixed up sometimes buts she quick to admit she pretty much knows she's deciecing herself, just that she wants what they are offering too much to cut things off when she should.

Lana was lied to and brutally deceived with the fake baby, but up until then, I don't buy that she's strictly the victim.

11 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

but it's demeaning to Lana to insist she was so hapless that she just had to go along with anything Lex planned for her and had no say in the matter

But its exaclty what happened,dude ep like Rage proves it. Lana wanted to do that charity thing lex negate her to do it. This isnt normal,a partner should never have this influence on the partner life. And wheter u like it or not,in the moment lex negate lana what to do,he is taking control over her. And the subconcious remember this,thats how u annihlate someone personality and free will. In whiter,lex was pressuring her to have sex,she didnt want to. Lex gave her a damn speech about clark,how much she trusted him,and that he is done paying for his mistake. That was manipulatory,A LOT. Emotional,persuasive,and pressuring. Then lana started to think about it, but the decision was already made when lex used clark as an emotive weapon, in lana's mind she compares lex with clark,and this push her to trust lex in the end.

You made the case that Lana had no choice about being friends or even being in a romantic relationship. The charity thing was late in their relationship and actually, Lex gave what would have been legitimate safety concerns had she not stumbled onto a sort of fake charity. Partners do take worries and concerns into consideration and given it was going to be his money involved, I think under normal circumstances, he has even more say in the matter.

And Lex could not use Clark as emotional shorthand if Clark didn't already have such a messed up relationship with Lana, one that was messed up long before Lex tried to break them up. Honestly, breaking up was the most mature thing Clark did even if lying about his feelings to do it was immature. But he thought saying he no longer had feelings would let her move on in her life since he'd decided she wasn't compatible with his secret and all that life entailed.

Edited January 25, 2017 by BkWurm1

Sirious Dude · January 26, 2017

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

You made the case that Lana had no choice about being friends or even being in a romantic relationship. The charity thing was late in their relationship and actually, Lex gave what would have been legitimate safety concerns had she not stumbled onto a sort of fake charity. Partners do take worries and concerns into consideration and given it was going to be his money involved, I think under normal circumstances, he has even more say in the matter.

No,what i mean is that once clark break up with lana,he proved to be what lex was manipulating lana to believe he was. After that all the trust she always had in clark,automatically transfers in lex because "he was right,he was the one who warned her". If lex wouldt interfier the way he did,lana would never turn to him. If lex woudlnt interfier at all,clark and lana would be good. They would be together. The point is that he does interfier because he is selfish and wants lana all for himself,he plays dirty. Using schemes to manipulate someone,is not good. Its illecit and unethical

At that point lex seriously played her,she came out of a relationship of dishonesty and lex gave lana fake honesty. This is playing someone,just as lex did with kara. And the fact that in the years he proved to be reliable as friend with lana,in this situation was better than the amnesia status of kara in order to get advantage of her. Maybe u see lex as genuine,but bad. The fact is that he is not genuine,he treat lana like a business deal. The way he easly shift from lovely boyfriend to ruthless boss with his minions is a clear hint of how not relaxed and happy he truly is. He's acting. the relationship lex gave lana is an illusion,literally. He totally delude her,with lies,with travels and other rich stuff. But the truth is that there is no love,thats why the proposal pulled her back. Only reason she accept,is the baby. And we all know about it.

Dude,the only concern lex had in that moment wasnt for lana,was that she could uncover his criminal business. He was protecting himself. And the way he didnt gave lana other choice is extremely manipulative. Going on with time ,this destroys lana's personality and free will.

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

And Lex could not use Clark as emotional shorthand if Clark didn't already have such a messed up relationship with Lana, one that was messed up long before Lex tried to break them up. Honestly, breaking up was the most mature thing Clark did even if lying about his feelings to do it was immature. But he thought saying he no longer had feelings would let her move on in her life since he'd decided she wasn't compatible with his secret and all that life entailed.

The point is not if clark could be used,its that he should NOT be used. Emotionally manipulating someone cant be seen as good or acceptable. Is wrong, a lot. And their relationship maybe in the last period was rocky but in hypnotic they were kinda good,lana said she would have waited as long as clark needs. Before reckoning their were not that messed up. They had a couple of fights. Reckoning frustrated lana and yeah she asked for a break,but eventually she stayed with clark to help him after jonny kent dies. After reckoning starts to be a little messed up,but indeed lex is starting to really interfier.

In Tomb lana asks lex to help chloe at belle rive, and it was lex that told her to rely on him in Vengeance. Of course she is not forced to do it,not in the liter way,but she already has a boyfriend and lex interfier in very persuading way .He says i know clark needs u,but when u need someone to rely on im here. U just dont do that,its wrong. Its manipulative,and lana cant do anything to stop him from talking. Anyways , in Tomb when lex is at the hospital with clark and they talk about chloe, lex remarks a couple of time how lana went to him for help,and he even speak for lana. This is to put discord between them. He emphatize that its lana that said that chloe needs belle rive,kinda to throw on clarks face how he and lana are close. Even if matter of fact they are not that close yet. But still that upset clark. Lex wanted to create other little fractures in the relationship and with the hypnotist he would give the last big hit and destroy it at all. I think lex planned the eventuality that the hypnosis "spell" broke and clark would give up lana anyways out of guilt.

No,clark broke up cause he didnt want to hurt lana anymore. He didnt want to tell her his secret,he was afraid she could die again. He also knew that by lying he'd hurt her. But he could have make the relationship work in other ways,u cant just abandon someone like he quitted football. People have emotions. I disagree,i think it was the stupidest thing he has ever done,and soon after that he regret he made that decision too. He took the easy way,he was running from his problems and once he saw her with lex,he understood he did a mistake. He wasnt being mature. This was a HUGE mistake,and lana is the one who pays the consequences. Lex manipualtion took hold on lana just when clark was "being mature". But he wasnt,he did regret to let lana go.

Lol,that reminds me of people who abandon their pets in the middle of the highway while going on holiday because they dont know how to fit them in the trip. Clark did something like this,but its not about compatibility at all. He broke up cause in that moment it was the easiest way to deal with lana. Indeed,when he had the occasion in " Hydro" he wanted to make a move. Most important thing,doing something like this is really wrong,especially the way clark did it. U cant just walk away from someone like that,its brutal. Kents are family for lana, clark was the most important part of lana's life, he knew she would been destoyed by that. Being mature would have been sit down and end it like a mutual friendship since it wasnt working. Truth tho is that it was working,and it could still work What clark did was immature and the way he did it was selfish. Thats why he regret it.

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

No, I've met people like that. I just saw them for what they were and turned down their candy (metaphorically speaking) and when I was deceived by people, I trusted my friends when they point it out. My friend gets mixed up sometimes buts she quick to admit she pretty much knows she's deciecing herself, just that she wants what they are offering too much to cut things off when she should.

Lana was lied to and brutally deceived with the fake baby, but up until then, I don't buy that she's strictly the victim.

Clark accepted lex gifts too,the football games,the concert tickets ecc. The point is that lana had none to teach her to dont take candies. She has no parents, no dad no mom. Lex took advantage of that. And after the break up he took advantage of her very fragile and vulnerable state to seduce her, that seduction tho is manipulation,because of the background of the whole story.

Thats why he was playing her. Her friend? Who,clark? Who just crushed her world? Or chloe,wich lana sees as clark-related and tend to dont trust either? Lex alieneted lana from the other people,she later admits that she lost everyone else.

Anyways abusive relationships are not abusive from the beginning. Actually in the beginning the abusive partner seems the perfect match. Its after he seduce her,once she is trapped that the real mental abuse begins. Think of that loyalty test lex set up with lionel,does that sound normal to u? This is pure manipulation,he is corrupting her and if u dont realize that,i honestly dont know how else explain my POV . Obviuosly is not like every ep or every time there is the abuse,but its undeniable that it is abusive. From the beginning, i mean just look how it started,how it was created with machinations and manipulation. Just this should make u undertstand the kind of relationship lexana is. Lana is a victim since the beginning,even if not brutally she already was victimazed.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Sirious Dude

BkWurm1 · January 26, 2017

3 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

The fact is that he is not genuine,he treat lana like a business deal. The way he easly shift from lovely boyfriend to ruthless boss with his minions is a clear hint of how not relaxed and happy he truly is.

I absolutely disagree that Lex thought of Lana like a business deal and again, he can be genuine in how he treats her while also being genuine in how he treats his minions because lots of people treat different people differently. Not an endorsement, but pretty common.

3 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

The point is that lana had none to teach her to dont take candies. She has no parents, no dad no mom.

She was not raised by wolves. She had her aunt, more than a lot of kids have and no indication she was neglected.

3 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Her friend? Who,clark? Who just crushed her world? Or chloe,wich lana sees as clark-related and tend to dont trust either? Lex alieneted lana from the other people,she later admits that she lost everyone else.

Lex didn't chase off her friends. Lana dumped everyone she knew and headed off to Paris all on her own. Lana is the one that half cut her ties with Aunt Nell by not living with her anymore. If Lana was down to Clark, Chloe and occasionally Lois as friends, that was her choice long before Lex tried to get her to be with him.

3 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Think of that loyalty test lex set up with lionel,does that sound normal to u?

Honestly, I don't date too many billionaires that have good reason not to automatically assume someone isn't just after his money, so I can't speak to it being totally insane or just oddly eccentric.

3 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

This is pure manipulation,he is corrupting her and if u dont realize that,i honestly dont know how else explain my POV

It isn't a case of you explaining your PoV, it's that your explanations dont' seem to allow for any other explanation. Can we just agree that we disagree?

Sirious Dude · January 26, 2017

19 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Of course Lex tried to make her love him and need him and want him, but she willingly chose to let him try and convince her in the first place.

Yes she does,obviously. But u gotta see the whole picture. Lex made that happen. Lex created the right situation so that lana would let him in. And that is what makes lexana wrong and a manipulation. What happen behind lana's back make the viewer understand lex real ways. And those are deceiving ways.

Besides the fact that is wrong to deliberately manipulate someone into lovin him , thats why lana will never truly love lex. He doesnt do what he does because he loves her,but because he wants her to love him.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Sirious Dude

Sirious Dude · January 26, 2017

57 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I absolutely disagree that Lex thought of Lana like a business deal and again, he can be genuine in how he treats her while also being genuine in how he treats his minions because lots of people treat different people differently. Not an endorsement, but pretty common.

What i mean is that after a nice conversation with ur girlfriend,u should be relaxed. The fact that after 2 sec he is angry and bossy, may hint that the lovely boyfriend is just an act. Its not natural the way lex passes from lovely to angry in matter of seconds,even tho there is nothing that really made him mad. This is not about how he treat people, evryone has his own preference.

Dude,for lex lana was just a competition. He hadmitted that himself,and thats how he treat her. When she agrees to marry him his face doesnt say im happy,its more like triumphant,like i win. Lex loves lana as an object, and he proves that in the way he treat her. Crimson gives a very clear view of the clexana triangle.

57 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

She was not raised by wolves. She had her aunt, more than a lot of kids have and no indication she was neglected.

Aunt nell seems kind of shallow to me. She wanted lana to keep being a cheerleader even tho she wanted to detach herself from that world. She was proud of her marrying a billionare. She seems to prefer lana to be with whitney rather than clark. Doesnt seems the kents style of parenting.

57 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Honestly, I don't date too many billionaires that have good reason not to automatically assume someone isn't just after his money, so I can't speak to it being totally insane or just oddly eccentric.

Lex knew lana wasnt after his money,simply because she never went after him. Was lex that went after lana. He never doubted lana in that way. Clearly that was a test,to corrupt her / bring her down at his moral level. To see how much grip he had on her. The intention were manipulatory. U cant deny that lex is indeed a manipulative person.

57 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

It isn't a case of you explaining your PoV, it's that your explanations dont' seem to allow for any other explanation. Can we just agree that we disagree?

Of course we can. If i gave u that impression dude im sorry,its that when im sure of something i tend to be over confident.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Sirious Dude

Sirious Dude · January 26, 2017

Another unpopular thought that probably will make me hate by all the lex-lovers.

I find very fascinating how many people like lex. In the specific ,how many people TOTALLY misunderstand the character,LOL.

To properly understand lex,u must see his behaviour in the first seasons with the perspective of what we learn about him in the last seasons.

Lex didnt want to genuine be clark friend. He wanted what he had. He wanted his life. Thats the ONLY reason lex starts a friendship with him. He admits that. Being clarks friend and being pat of his life is the closest thing to have that. His help, his friendhsip,he didnt do the things he has done for clark becasue he loves him as a friend, he did that so that clark would see him as a friend. Thats what is wrong, thats what lionel warn him about why lana will never love him.

Lex sees the world and people as a strategy game. Like that strategy game he shows clark in the bug boy ep. He sees people as means to satisfy his needs. Having a friend, having a surrogate family, have a new happy life in smallville. There are so many hints even in the first season that lex isnt truly who he claims to be. He changed when he went to smallville. But none really just change. He was pretending.

Lex arguably never REALLY liked clark, and it was suggested, in fact, plainly stated that he was only ever friends with him because he wanted everything that clark had. Lana and the loving parents. Everything he did for clark, was to manipulate his way into lana's life. Maybe with time he devoleped some sorta of affection to the kents and clark, but it was twisted and not genuine. It was a selfish affection. He was envious. He protected or helped them cause he wanted his pet family to be happy. He literally buys his way in the kents family. Pa kent was right about him, but i find it lol that he eventually fell for his manipulations.

Altough i already cleared the air about the lexana relationship, i have to disagree that there were hints about that. Those werent hints,like maybe the clark and lois ones.

There was this creepy vibe from lex to lana. But thats it,lana never showed any interest in lex. Those are not hints. Thats the perverted obsession of an adult man over a teenage girl. This is the lexana relationship and i want to be respectfull,but i honestly think that shipping someone with lex or perhaps thinking lexana was a genuine and lovely couple is just wrong. I can understand people have their POV about that.

But having a POV means consider lexana like that because u share lex's same moral ambiguity wich make u consider the way the relationship is build as something right and acceptable. Another thing is distorting the reality of the show saying is good and genuine,that came spontaneously. But then again, many lana haters loved to see her with lex simply cause she was not with clark anymore. They loved to see her get corrupted,to go bad. They enjoy the fact that lana from the sweet girl gets totally deviated. Some of them probably enjoyed watching her suffer,being miserable and sad. Its bad. Its hatred. Its disgusting.

I deeply disagree that MR and KK had better chemistry than anyone else,especially than TW and KK. Its not even a matter of interpretaion or an opinion. They had chemistry,yes and no. It wasnt a romantic passionate chemistry. On the daily basis their chemistry was not even that great, just maybe in the kisses. What they had is intimacy,as a couple,because of how the relationship is written,not thanks to the actors. Whatever chemistry they had is not as great as someone describe it,even tho sure thing they do have some. But it wasnt even comparable to the award nomination worthy one of TW and KK.

I had to say this since i read some pretty amazing thought about that so just wanted to share mine as well.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Sirious Dude

DittyDotDot · January 26, 2017

23 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

I deeply disagree that MR and KK had better chemistry than anyone else,especially than TW and KK. Its not even a matter of interpretaion or an opinion.

I'm sorry, but chemistry--as with most things--is entirely in the eye of the beholder. We all view these things through our own biases and life experiences and what I see may not be the same thing you see. That doesn't mean on person's view of the situation is incorrect, though.

BkWurm1 · January 26, 2017

43 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

I find very fascinating how many people like lex. In the specific ,how many people TOTALLY misunderstand the character,LOL.

To properly understand lex,u must see his behaviour in the first seasons with the perspective of what we learn about him in the last seasons

This is the kind of language that just makes me crazy. Why is your understanding more correct than anyone else's? You can explain how you see his character, contrast it against how others do, and even explain why you are confused how anyone can see it that way, but opinion and interpretation doesn't get to have one declared right or wrong winner.

Edited January 26, 2017 by BkWurm1

Sirious Dude · January 26, 2017

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm sorry, but chemistry--as with most things--is entirely in the eye of the beholder. We all view these things through our own biases and life experiences and what I see may not be the same thing you see. That doesn't mean on person's view of the situation is incorrect, though.

31 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

I deeply disagree that MR and KK had better chemistry than anyone else,especially than TW and KK. Its not even a matter of interpretaion or an opinion. They had chemistry,yes and no. It wasnt a romantic passionate chemistry. On the daily basis their chemistry was not even that great, just maybe in the kisses. What they had is intimacy,as a couple,because of how the relationship is written,not thanks to the actors. Whatever chemistry they had is not as great as someone describe it,even tho sure thing they do have some

My friend,i clearly explained my point. I think that what people sees and wrongly identify as chemistry is,indeed, intimacy. They are showed in more intimate moments than clark with lana. We see them sharing their lifes more than lana did with clark. This is not about chemistry,is about writing. But it can easly be confused as chemistry. I just gave my opinion about it.

BkWurm1 · January 26, 2017

32 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

To properly understand lex,u must see his behaviour in the first seasons with the perspective of what we learn about him in the last seasons.

Lex didnt want to genuine be clark friend. He wanted what he had. He wanted his life. Thats the ONLY reason lex starts a friendship with him. He admits that. Being clarks friend and being pat of his life is the closest thing to have that. His help, his friendhsip,he didnt do the things he has done for clark becasue he loves him as a friend, he did that so that clark would see him as a friend. Thats what is wrong, thats what lionel warn him about why lana will never love him.

Lex sees the world and people as a strategy game. Like that strategy game he shows clark in the bug boy ep. He sees people as means to satisfy his needs. Having a friend, having a surrogate family, have a new happy life in smallville. There are so many hints even in the first season that lex isnt truly who he claims to be. He changed when he went to smallville. But none really just change. He was pretending.

Lex arguably never REALLY liked clark, and it was suggested, in fact, plainly stated that he was only ever friends with him because he wanted everything that clark had. Lana and the loving parents. Everything he did for clark, was to manipulate his way into lana's life. Maybe with time he devoleped some sorta of affection to the kents and clark, but it was twisted and not genuine. It was a selfish affection. He was envious. He protected or helped them cause he wanted his pet family to be happy. He literally buys his way in the kents family. Pa kent was right about him, but i find it lol that he eventually fell for his manipulations.

See, I feel that this retroactive viewpoint of the show negates the power of the early seasons where IMO we were shown how Lex became who he was, rather than he was always that person. There were seeds of who everyone became starting the the first season but for all of Clark's good intentions, he could have sided with Zod and the Kandorians and been this planets worst traitor or stayed that mindless robot the Jor-El made him between seasons 3 and 4. Chloe could have followed through with her deal with Lionel and instead of becoming Clark's best ally, a more insidious enemy than even Lex. Martha could have decided she loved the working for Lionel and eventually left Smallville behind to be Lionel's object of affection. Lana could have stayed possessed by a witch. And Lex, Lex COULD have turned his back on his father and his money and been a genuinely good guy. We even saw that in Lexmas.

None of these characters IMO were ever preset in their path. They all became a product of an accumulation of their choices and the choices made by those around them. The great tragedy of Smallville is IMO that Lex did love Clark as a brother but life and choices and even misunderstandings and fear made them mortal enemies.

Sirious Dude · January 26, 2017

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

This is the kind of language that just makes me crazy. Why is your understanding more correct than anyone else's? You can explain how you see his character, contrast it against how others do, and even explain why you are confused how anyone can see it that way, but opinion and interpretation doesn't get to have one declared right or wrong winner

34 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

But having a POV means consider lexana like that because u share lex's same moral ambiguity wich make u consider the way the relationship is build as something right and acceptable.

This is the only possible answer to why people sees lex as remotely good,even in the first seasons. Or either people are naive and truly believe whatever lex says. I mean i read about people who even accused clark of cheating on lana while he never cheated on lois. This alluding to the hypnotist fact. The point is,not everyone understand the dynamic of the show,the psychology of the characters and a lot of people simply decide to ignore things in order to protect the image of the character in question. Misunderstaning a charater is a common thing , but when i read so much pure BS i feel the need to say the truth. Can we agree that we disagree?

Lisin · January 26, 2017

Please remember the golden rule. Be civil to each other! Disagreeing is fine but please be nice while doing it! Thanks!

Sirious Dude · January 26, 2017

I seriously dont understand what i did say wrong and if i did it,wasnt my intention. If what i type sound like im imposing this as the absolute truth,again,im sorry. This is just my opinion and wasnt my intention attack anyone.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Sirious Dude

BkWurm1 · January 26, 2017

8 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

I seriously dont understand what i did say wrong and if i did it,wasnt my intention.

Quote

But having a POV means consider lexana like that because u share lex's same moral ambiguity wich make u consider the way the relationship is build as something right and acceptable.

The implication seems to be that anyone that liked Lexana has just as bad of morals as Lex Luthor. So If once feels that Lex is a monster, wouldn't saying someone is like him be a whopper of an insult?

Edited January 26, 2017 by BkWurm1

Sirious Dude · January 26, 2017

28 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well implying that if anyone liked Lexana that they had just as bad of morals as Lex Luthor is not the best way to treat others with respect IMO

I didnt say that to disrespect people, i say that because this is how human mind works. We tend to appreciate character with who we share similarities,thoughts,attitude,behaviours. And we tend to dislike characters cause in real life we tend to dislike that kind of people.

Same for the relationships. Mine is a logic reasoning based on actual fact. I didnt mean that to offend, what should i care about attacking someone i dont even know?

Edited January 26, 2017 by Sirious Dude

Sirious Dude · January 26, 2017

36 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

None of these characters IMO were ever preset in their path. They all became a product of an accumulation of their choices and the choices made by those around them. The great tragedy of Smallville is IMO that Lex did love Clark as a brother but life and choices and even misunderstandings and fear made them mortal enemies.

What i meant is not that lex was as bad as he is in the later seasons. I mean that his friendhsip with clark is proved to not be as genuine as it may seems it the first seasons. Especially how many people actually see clex as genuine and spontaneus. Some even defend lex, attacking clark as the bad friend.

In reunion we discover that lex wanted to force oliver to be his friend. This kind of relationship dynamic has always been part of who lex is. Its just that i dont think its fair to consider his relationship with clark without considering this kind of thing.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Sirious Dude

BkWurm1 · January 26, 2017

Quote

But then again, many lana haters loved to see her with lex simply cause she was not with clark anymore. They loved to see her get corrupted,to go bad. They enjoy the fact that lana from the sweet girl gets totally deviated. Some of them probably enjoyed watching her suffer,being miserable and sad.

The thing is, I didn't see it as Lana being the sweet girl being corrupted. I saw it as Lana settling into her truer self, one that I pretty much saw flashes of all through the show from the start. It's not that I wanted Lana to go dark, I just find it more enjoyable when the actions and perception of a character seem to line up. WIth Lana, I found her being viewed as super duper perfect nice girl just wrong. I seemed like a facade hiding who she really was and when she got to be more openly sneaky and underhanded and more openly myopic, I found her more genuine and thus easier and more interesting to watch. Even if I thought she was making bad choices.

And no, I did not enjoy her suffering. I won't absolve her of her choices that led her there, but I don't rejoice in her emotional misery.

1 hour ago, Sirious Dude said:

What i meant is not that lex was as bad as he is in the later seasons. I mean that his friendhsip with clark is proved to not be as genuine as it may seems it the first seasons.

And that really is what I'm debating. I'm ok with saying that Lex didn't really understand how to be a friend like the rest of us since investigating friends right from the start isn't the best place to start, but I think he was genuine in wanting what their friendship and in seeing Clark like a brother. Of course, it's also fine to point out that Lex had a really rough relationship with his real brothers, lol.

I think that yes, he wanted almost right from the start the kind of love and respect that Clark seemed to have just lucked into, but I don't feel that Lex desired to cut Clark off from what he had in order for Lex to get it. He just wanted to be included in the life and once that was no longer possible, he still wanted it and so he fixated on who Clark loved and thought if I can have her love, then I'll have what Clark had. But all that comes later after their friendship fell apart

1 hour ago, Sirious Dude said:

Mine is a logic reasoning based to actual fact.

Maybe, maybe not. Others may not agree with your logic in the first place.

But one way or another, the conclusions are not fact, they are your interpretations of it and perceptions of characters on a tv show cannot be scientifically or clinically proven.

A good short cut to avoid posts that seem to force opinion onto others as fact is even to include a quick disclaimer like "in my opinon" to preface it or the shorter abbreviation of IMO. Also, sometimes there is no benefit in "explaining" to people the "reasons" why their brains aren't behaving like yours. In general, people don't love being told what they are thinking. Thought process is never as simplistic as it might appear. Also is comes off as condescending, even if that is not the intention.

Edited January 26, 2017 by BkWurm1

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