All Episodes Talk: Time Rifts in Cardiff and Beyond

[tarotx]

I finally finished Miracle Day and it just got super Dull :( And though I knew it was coming I don't like the change in Mythology with Rex. I need to Write some fan fiction to fix that right now :P So many deaths. I didn't care about them-even Esther's. 

[Luckylyn]

I made the mistake of caring about Esther. I liked the whole desk jockey forced to become a field agent story. Plus I was shipping her with Jack. I really should have known better than to get attached to characters on Deathwood.

[tarotx]

I could never ship Esther with Jack since she just looked and seemed sooo young. But yeah getting attached to Torchwood characters is a bad idea other than Jack and Gwen. 

[Captanne]

Luckylyn, I agree with you -- Jack and Esther had great chemistry.  I also was totally able to ID Esther with being a female Ianto-story.  I never had the impression she was some sort of Tosh substitute just because she worked with computers.  I pretty much ignored that and saw more value in the chemistry, her youth, the initial meeting involving falling from great heights* and the "desk jockey turned super agent" (for that comparison, Ianto was a "valet turned super agent" -- think the way he kicked ass in "Meat".  Don't think of the way he died in CoE which was inexplicably idiotic on his part.)

 

But that was my impression.  Lots of people saw it differently.

[Luckylyn]

I'm totally convinced that Jack and Esther hooked up while on the run during the time jump because of they way they seemed to hesitate to say goodbye.  I kinda saw Esther as a mixture of Tosh and Ianto which probably helps to explain why I was a fan of hers.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Captanne]

Yeah, I totally buy the combo-idea of a Tosh/Ianto blend.  I still default to say she was more of a Ianto -- but, that's probably my bias showing.  Heh.

 

ETA:  Ditto on agreeing that Jack and Ianto, oops, Esther, hooked up in Scotland.  

Edited May 29, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

I finally finished Miracle Day and it just got super Dull :

I wasn't particularly attached to any of the characters so I wasn't that invested in their deaths either, but I thought it was a mistake to kill off Vera, especially so early, because at least she allowed for more of a 'every day life' perspective on the Miracle. We kept 'hearing' how the miracle was effecting people, but not really seeing it. I still think having Torchwood pointlessly 'on the run' was a mistake too. It made events too much like something that was happening to other people to care about. Even having Gwen's father be affected wasn't utilized that well I don't think.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Swansong

[Luckylyn]

I really felt like both Vera and Esther were more interesting and had more story potential than Rex who I found obnoxious.

[Captanne]

My problem with Torchwood being on the run had not so much to do with the "being on the run" part as with the WHY they were on the run.  The absolute scorched Earth policy that RTD used in CoE makes me want to scream and tear at something.  

 

He levelled the show in the cruelest way possible -- with a sort of "and then rocks fell and everybody died" attitude.  

 

Such a huge disappointment for me.  It makes me want to weep.

 

CoE, I wish you would have died in a fire before you could ever have been aired.

[Captanne]

Just to add:  There were parts of Miracle Day I really enjoyed.  The "I'll rip your skin from your head" line from Jack to Gwen when he realized what a dangerous idiot she is.  Absolutely everything about the redhead.  I liked the serial killer in two scenes -- both with Jack:  First, as Jack was stalking him through the Convention Centre and second, when they confronted each other about life and death in the apartment.  OMG, that was possibly John Barrowman's finest moment, imo.

 

I thought Bartender Brad was great.  The drunk dial was cute up to a point.  

 

Another apartment scene, Jack on Earth in a dark, dank DC apartment filled with nothing but computer screens -- while he's eating a can of beans.  *Sob*.

 

I kind of laughed during the "English" versus "American" but that is probably just me -- I grew up in a household where that sort of thing went on a lot.  There were a lot of language quirks.

 

It's always a pleasure to see Kai Owen (Rhys Williams) except when he was horribly out of character to Gwen.  

 

Um, lastly, I guess, I really liked the idea of the threat not being a Big Bad but being a real, genuine, earnestly sought after Miracle -- Eternal Life.  And then to watch the reality settle in.  And the horror start to grow.  

 

It's too bad they dropped the ball on that, though, because we never really saw the global impact.

[catrox14]

 

OMG, that was possibly John Barrowman's finest moment, imo.

 

I thought that was fantastic too.  I have to say, I have been pleasantly surprised at how effective JB has been as a villain on Arrow. He's done a really good job not going to far, and a couple of times he was freaking terrifying. He reminds me of the real dark part of Jack with less happiness LOL

[Luckylyn]

The thing that bugged me most about MD is how much time was spent on things (Oswald's whole storyline) that turned out not to really matter while skimming over things (how getting rid of death can cause chaos) that should have had tons more focus.  I really wanted to see the break down of society over time.

 

John Barrowman is the reason I was willing to keep going with this show after COE.  He's the reason I'd tune in again if Torchwood ever returned.  As long as they have Jack, this show has me.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Captanne]

I thought that was fantastic too.  I have to say, I have been pleasantly surprised at how effective JB has been as a villain on Arrow. He's done a really good job not going to far, and a couple of times he was freaking terrifying. He reminds me of the real dark part of Jack with less happiness LOL

Dark Jack is possibly my favourite Jack.  I never take the "easy" route -- I like Dark Jack because he gave JB range and room to stretch his acting chops and he gave us a bit of a wake-up-call that Jack wasn't all about Love, Sex and Adventure.  Jack has been through Hell and back, horribly mistreated by the Doctor in emotional and physical ways and had his heart Galactically Broken.  

 

The fun Jack we always see isn't half as fascinating as Dark Jack (when taken in small doses.)

 

ETA:  Make that "heart Galactically Broken twice".

 

EETA:

John Barrowman is the reason I was willing to keep going with this show after COE.  He's the reason I'd tune in again if Torchwood ever returned.  As long as they have Jack, this show has me.

 

OMFG, Ditto.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

Another apartment scene, Jack on Earth in a dark, dank DC apartment filled with nothing but computer screens -- while he's eating a can of beans.  *Sob*

That scene made me laugh. Does Jack just have a thing for dark hovels? And should we explore this? Is it supposed to suggest his state of mind that he can't even be bothered to get a decent apartment? Is Washington going through some sort of housing crisis and this was all he could get at such short notice? Is it because Ianto would have handled this kind of thing normally and Jack basically sucks at housekeeping? (And are beans (is he eating beans?) now supposed to be symbolic for him lol? "Beans! Ianto!") And I feel like I missed it and I don't have the will to sit through the series again, but is there even an explanation for why Jack is in Washington in the first place? Doesn't he come back to protect Gwen and shutdown TW, but why is he doing that from America? Wouldn't it be easier from Wales where she actually is and where Torchwood actually is? Or has the show just completely given up on ever making sense ever?

 

 

Um, lastly, I guess, I really liked the idea of the threat not being a Big Bad but being a real, genuine, earnestly sought after Miracle -- Eternal Life.  And then to watch the reality settle in.  And the horror start to grow.

I wish that had been the big bad, but wasn't it the Families wanting to destroy all societies so they could begin a brand new master race. Or something? I'm still not sure what the point was even after that woman spent 40 minutes trying to explain it.

 

 

The thing that bugged me most about MD is how much time was spent on things (Oswald's whole storyline) that turned out not to really matter while skimming over things (how getting rid of death can cause chaos) that should have had tons more focus.  I really wanted to see the break down of society over time.

 

I feel like they never got much beyond the Oswald being a shocking and edgy character because he's a murdering pedophile phase of his development. I actually thought that scene when Jack goes to his room was kind of silly. It's like they wanted to set up Oswald as someone who would be considered important and special in relation to the Miracle, but they couldn't make it work because everyone in the world is affected by the Miracle so we need more than that to buy him suddenly standing out. The idea that the Governor would be so terrified of being sued by him he'd just let him out, even on bail, when he'd already been convicted for rape and murder and no-one was even challenging his guilt for the crime or a pharmaceutical company hiring him as their spokes person was just too silly for me to take seriously. I know they were trying to say something about celebrity and how celebrity is manufactured blah, blah, blah, but it was like they weren't even trying. And then as Luckylyn pointed out his entire arc is essentially pointless and unnecessary in the end anyway. I mean that may have been the point, but it just wasn't all that interesting a point or character in the end anyway so me they could have dropped the whole character and his story line and the show wouldn't have lost anything, even as weak as the whole series was to me. I could definitely see ways you could incorporate a character like Oswald into the narrative, but I think its time for RTD to move on from the pedophile villain. That's twice in a row already, but at least the 456 were somewhat novel.

 

I'm trying to think what I liked about MD and I'm realising not much. Even COE there were things/scenes I genuinely enjoyed amongst all the stuff I found kind of meh. Anwen was cute. I thought Jack and Esther had nice relationship although it reminded me more of his relationship with Tosh and the production values were very slick. I liked Vera. Her sleeping with Rex after she finds him bleeding and passed out on her floor was wonderfully unethical and gross and the stuff fanfic is made of so obviously she would have fit right in at Torchwood if she'd lasted more than a minute. I really liked the idea of a 'miracle' that gives people immortal life, but comes with ugly consequences. I also liked the idea of Gwen essentially living the 'normal life' Jack had always envisioned for her and essentially being bored out of her skull and not so secretly wanting to get back to the excitement and danger of her Torchwood life. If the series wasn't so obsessed with style over substance with Gwen and how awesome she supposedly looks all the time almost to the point of parody sometimes I think that could have been a genuinely interesting character moment. Not least because she always seemed to blame Jack for her involvement with Torchwood and it affecting her 'normal life' even though she was the one who inserted herself into Torchwood's business in the first place and this is supposedly the series where Gwen supposedly develops some self-awareness about herself and her choices. I thought Jack and Angelo had good chemistry, but boy did they end up killing that character for me. Not only do they have him killing Jack and then basically handing him over to be tortured. They suggest he stalked Jack for over 90 years, but didn't think it was worth giving him a heads up about what the Families were up to or their interest in him and that basically the only thing he did in that time was steal Torchwood equipment to protect himself.

 

So is this rewatch still happening?

[Luckylyn]

 

Not least because she always seemed to blame Jack for her involvement with Torchwood and it affecting her 'normal life' even though she was the one who inserted herself into Torchwood's business in the first place and this is supposedly the series where Gwen supposedly develops some self-awareness about herself and her choices.

Gwen always seems to default to acting like things going bad are Jack's fault and seems to forget that she pursued Torchwood.   She chose the dangerous life and comes off as a major thrill junkie.  She could have quit at anytime but continues to get involved in the danger.  Gwen looked her happiest when she had that bazooka because I think the danger Torchwood exposes her to is the real love of her life.  It reminds me of that scene in the episode when Gwen has a night off and instead of enjoying a night alone with Rhys she's bored out of her mind until Jack shows up with trouble which makes her clearly thrilled.  I always understood Rhys frustration with the realization that his girlfriend would rather be at work than with him.

 

Immortal Sins, Esther, and Vera are the things in MD I liked.  Otherwise it was a waste of a potentially awesome idea.

[Captanne]

Swansong -- I consider the Big Bad in MD to be Eternal Life (the manifestation of:  The misguided granting of a desirable Miracle with obvious bad results.  An age old trope that goes all the way back to Aesop and beyond.)

 

The accoutrements of that trope are the Families and the Giant Vagina. 

[Swansong]

I see what you mean, but I didn't see eternal life as the 'big bad' more the tool the big bad were using in order to destroy the world so they could rebuild it in their own fascist image. The big bad were the ones who poured Jack's blood into the Giant Vagina because they knew (not sure how exactly) it would make everyone immortal. And unfortunately unlike eternal life, if the show returns it looks like they're planning to bring the Families back for a second round. And if I wasn't already jaded on the show that fact alone would be enough to put me off ever watching Torchwood again.

[Chip]

This topic has gotten terribly long since it is being used as a general discussion. Feel free to create topics of your own in the Torchwood forum and spin the discussions off to those!

[Luckylyn]

I started separate threads for COE and Jack and Ianto.

[Luckylyn]

I also added character threads for Jack, Ianto, Tosh, and Gwen.  I didn't start one for Owen because I'm still torn about him and couldn't think of a title for him.  I can't helping seeing him as a rapist even if the show writers don't.

[Chip]

Great! Thanks!

[indeed]

Ah, poor Owen. Forever screwed over because of RTD's sense of humor...

I started a thread for the Torchwood 3 medic with the crabby bedside manner.

Edited May 30, 2014 by indeed

[Captanne]

Owen was an inconsistent ass -- rapist one second and sympathetic abused child the next.  I'll take this opinion with me when I arrive at the thread, LOL.

[indeed]

Maybe we can have a rewatch sub-forum or maybe specific season sub-forums for the episode discussions? Anyway, I'm going to start an episode thread to try to get the rewatch started.

[Chip]

If you watch any episodes and want to start a discussion thread, that is encouraged! We are pulling the original air date information from here:

 

http://thetvdb.com/?tab=series&id=79511&lid=7

[indeed]

So, it's UK original air date, except for S4 (since that aired first in US)? OK. Can't add the date to the episode thread I created, so if you wouldn't mind, please, when you get the time? Thanks! I'll change out the description.

[Chip]

I think we are going with whichever air date is earliest.

[indeed]

The air date *was* there for a Day One...then I went to edit my post and the date went away. Sorry, I tried! (Same for Out of Time. Argh!)

ETA: Maybe we can combine the two Jack Harkness threads (I ask as I clog up the forum with all these episode threads...)

Edited June 12, 2014 by indeed

[indeed]

Not sure which thread this should go in, but here's a recent article about Torchwood that might add to the discussion:

Why There Is Something Inherently Wrong With Torchwood

The article and the comments are interesting...

[Luckylyn]

That's an interesting article.  It made some points I hadn't considered before.  I don't think it's crazy to make an adult show as a spin off of a kid's show because kids grow up.  The idea that Doctor Who fans as kids could grow up to be Torchwood fans makes sense to me.  What I do think RTD messed up on is that his idea of what adult is could be incredibly juvenile.

[Swansong]

It does seem to ignore that while it might not be suitable for very young children, teenagers and people in their early 20s seem to enjoy the show for  a lot of the reasons, ironically, that the article complains about. I suspect that's always been the intended audience anyway. And I agree, Luckylyn, that eventually kids grow up and may even outgrow Doctor Who or still love Doctor Who, but still appreciate something more mature, not that Torchwood was always particularly mature. But I still understand the desire to create a more adult show. I thought the idea, at least, was a good one. I never really had a problem with the handling of sex on Torchwood outside of Day One and the silliness of Jack randomly kissing an unconscious Ianto in Cyberwoman and the cheesy cyberwoman costume.Most of the time even when I didn't find the writing all that good I thought the sex had at least some character point and most of it seemed pretty tame.  

[indeed]

People tend to exaggerate, too, in discussions about Torchwood's "adult/mature" content. They didn't constantly curse or have a lot of sex or act juvenile all of the time. Jack and Ianto were hardly more in-your-face with the sexual content than other pairings (uh, Owen and Diane!...and not to mention Starz "home-of-Spartacus" Torchwood), but they're usually brought up as being excessive. What I didn't need to see was naked Rhys...or Johnny. LOL

Yeah, I wouldn't think S3 was OK for kids...even disregarding that last bit.

As a viewer of New Who I was quite interested in watching an "adult" spin-off when I heard it would be available; however, it did seem a bit odd that they only seemed worried about kids watching if The Doctor crossed over and even offered a pre-watershed version. Whatever, TPTB.

[Swansong]

 

People tend to exaggerate, too, in discussions about Torchwood's "adult/mature" content. They didn't constantly curse or have a lot of sex or act juvenile all of the time. Jack and Ianto were hardly more in-your-face with the sexual content than other pairings (uh, Owen and Diane!...and not to mention Starz "home-of-Spartacus" Torchwood), but they're usually brought up as being excessive. What I didn't need to see was naked Rhys...or Johnny. LOL

I agree. The complaints about Jack and Ianto being in your face is also a pretty laughable one. People still debate whether or when they were even involved or whether they actually had sex in TKKS or anywhere else because of how little of their relationship happened on screen. I get the feeling, particularly with a lot of the comments on that article and other comments I've seen that some people tend to object to the idea of sex or swearing in a show connected to Doctor Who at all.

[itsmeyousee]

I'm sorry but that article made no sense unless you understood the definition of "family show". Some of the story lines in DW i wouldn't include as a "family show" for kids to watch. Tortured for a year, while the Earth got destroyed, Canary Wharf over 800 people dying and getting changed into Cybermen, popular TV shows that in the future if your are a contestant you die, little kids scary nightmares really do live in the closet etc.

 

Let alone the whole "sexualisation " crap that one person was commenting on with Tosh/Mary and Jack/ianto but i'm not homophobic , they didn't comment on Rhys/Gwen. I mean didn't Jack show off is body in DW first, didn't Jack kiss the Doctor in an ep and Rose got a human version of the Doctor to play with.. We have had the Doctor get married, Amy/Rory get married with the most complex and scary pregnacy ever.

 

The difference for me really between DW and TW was that TW lost, cast members died badly. And by that i don't mean the romatic way they killed of Amy/Rory in DW. They didn't get to go back to a normal life after the adventures, TW was their lives.

 

I do agree that RTD went to far sometimes in TW in an effort to make it different from DW but since both shows vaguely acknowledged each other. I m not certain they were counting on the same audience. Otherwise wouldn 't the Doctor have been made a bigger deal out of in the beginning of TW especially with Jack explaining to Gwen about why he can't stay dead. So yes the BBC may have done a edited version for kids who were watching but that wasn't who they were aiming the show at. I don't think you can fault TW for not meeting the person who wrote the articles expectations, it just means don't watch the show. yet they watched the whole four seasons why ?

 

Just an rather odd article that made no sense to me , maybe cause i don't get why violence is ok for kids but sex or swearing isn't

[catrox14]

Ugh that article annoyed me to no end. They lost me with the argument that nothing from Doctor Who should be adult.  Well guess what? Doctor Who had plenty of adult episodes that were really disturbing like Midnight, The Family of Blood, The Girl who Waited, Blink, Waters of Mars. I can name dozens. There just wasn't any sex.

 

The show  aired at times children aren't supposed to be watching.  Dude. Don't let your children watch it and explain that sometimes they don't get to watch something just because Capt Jack is in it.

 

Jeebus. That's annoying as fuck. It's a different fucking show. 

Edited June 18, 2014 by catrox14

[maraleia]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from Torchwood's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

[Dizzy76]

Oh, my!  I thought conversation had died for a while only to find out that I needed to go to the next page!  AND THEN I find that I've missed a whole butt-load of conversation, lol!

 

I want to jump back in and put my 2 cents worth on the table cause I love discussing this show with you guys.  It unfortunately will have to wait for a couple of days though.  I picked the worst time to come here and check.  Cause I've had a time to read a bit here and there to catch up but no real time to contribute.  Soon.

 

I did have a question though and because this is the All Episode Talk thread I hope this is the right place to ask it.  As you guys are going through and discussing the episodes I though it might be nice to add some of the web content that was released/posted for series 1 and 2.  Even though some may question how "canon" any of it is, I like it because not only does it fill in some blanks that the show leaves out (irresponsibly) but some of the content has been confirmed as being created/written by actually writers and people directly connected to the show.  I managed to save a good chunk of the web stuff from someone who was awesome enough to gather it all together.  SO would you guys be interested or ok with me sharing what I have?  I'd love to do it.  I'll of course try and limit what I post to things that I think will actually add to the episode conversation.  Unless someone just wants everything posted.  I can go either way.

[itsmeyousee]

Personally Dizzy i don't mind and i 'm guessing you're talking about "offical" stuff that was released on line, like the Captain's Blog etc.

I mean if it's about the ep and TW released it , would be canon. Isn't that what canon is , the Offical stuff.

 

I mentioned a book/audio book that was written after TKKS but it does go into Suzie's plan more for how she expected to survive and then continues on with what happens to her.

 

But since i'm new i really don't know, maybe we need a new topic where the extras other than the ep can be discussed ?

[Swansong]

Yeah you may need to start a new thread, but I suppose it'll be ok.

[Dizzy76]

I wouldn't think a whole new thread is needed - not really.  I only wanted to post the stuff that directly related to the episodes so I figured I could just add the relevant extras in those threads.  

 

I do have stuff that was released about each of the team that could be considered a bit of background for them.  If there's an interest in those then yeah, a new thread might be needed.  Or, I could just add those things in the appropriate character threads.

[indeed]

Thanks, Dizzy! Info is interesting and sometimes provides a chuckle (Ianto getting looks at the fish store LOL).

[Chip]

We should not post the actual material from the online sources, only links to it. Otherwise, I feel that is a violation of copyright and there could be ramifications.

[Dizzy76]

A lot of the online content is no longer available as it was taken down to make room for the Miracle Day stuff.  I know for sure that the Captain's Blog is no longer up.  I can try and search out links to the other stuff that is still available though.  Didn't want to cause any problems, just wanted to have easy access for everyone.

 

 

ETA:  Well guys, I don't think I can add anything.  I'm sorry but I can't find any of the stuff I was posting one either BBC One's or BBC America's website.  It's all been updated to Miracle Day content.  There may be some way to get at the old content but I just don't know how.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Dizzy76

[indeed]

I don't know if this link is acceptable, but here's an unofficial archive of the good (but lost?) bits from the TW web sites:

Captain's Blog for first two seasons and other info

[Captanne]

Oh, the first comment from the blogger on that page just kills me.

Children of Earth, for a wide variety of reasons, destroyed much of the enthusiasm I had for Torchwood and I cannot see that changing in the foreseeable future.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Captanne

[Dizzy76]

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread to mention this but it's something that has been bothering me for the last 2 days and I can't seem to let it go.  When I was combing through the BBC/BBCA websites to see what extras were still available, I noticed something that to be honest, kind of bummed me out. 

 

The websites seemed to have erased a lot of Owen, Ianto, and Tosh.  Not only are there no character pages for them anymore (Content Not Found), but BBC One's website only has promo pics of Jack and Gwen to represent series 1 & 2 and COE.  BBC America doesn't have any photo galleries for anything other than Miracle Day now (there are links for images but the pages are blank).

 

BBC America does link to an article about what the old cast is doing now which is nice but I didn't realize just how much had been scrapped.  As silly as this sounds, it feels like a loss all over again.

[Captanne]

Par for the course.

[Luckylyn]

I will never understand the scorched earth policy with Torchwood seasons 1,  2, and 3.  They just destroyed everything and now they are trying to act like only Gwen and Jack ever existed.  Everything that made Torchwood compelling they've stripped away.  For me, Jack's the only good thing left, and the writing for him (torture constantly) is seriously problematic.   It's like viewers were punished for loving things the writers didn't and so those characters  and elements had to go.

[Captanne]

It used to make me angry.  Now it just makes me sad.

 

ETA:  I just had CMC surgery (youtube that at your peril) -- it's a re-build of the joint that holds your thumb to your wrist at the base.  Not the joint that holds your thumb to your hand.  My typing is currently suffering from single-handed hunt-and-pecking combined with low-dose oxy.  Please forgive.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

I will never understand the scorched earth policy with Torchwood seasons 1,  2, and 3.  They just destroyed everything and now they are trying to act like only Gwen and Jack ever existed.  Everything that made Torchwood compelling they've stripped away.  For me, Jack's the only good thing left, and the writing for him (torture constantly) is seriously problematic.   It's like viewers were punished for loving things the writers didn't and so those characters  and elements had to go.

Not only that. Having destroyed Torchwood, even getting rid of TW2, killed off all, but two of the personnel so that Jack and Gwen can run around the world like some rogue double act they still want us to believe that Torchwood as an organisation still matters and still has the authority to boss other institutions around like the CIA. lol. Apparently just saying your Torchwood is all you need these days.