All Episodes Talk: Time Rifts in Cardiff and Beyond

[Luckylyn]

 

- Because every fan will have their own idea about what they should be seeing, there's no reason why the actor's vision of their character should be discredited in favor of fans.

 

- However, if thousands of people are seeing something that the creator or actor isn’t, then they should maybe take a look at why that is.

 

- If canon and fandom are to remain separate, with fans not influencing the direction the work goes in at all, then they should remain separate. So if you’re not going to ever even consider showing two characters in a romantic relationship, don’t use the idea of that relationship to promote the show. If, for example, fans think a character is bi, don’t heavily suggest it, then say “nah, that was actually nothing”. Don’t bait.

I agree with you. 

 

Mainly, I think that whatever is organic to the story should be the priority regardless of fan opinion.  Fans aren't a monolith and won't agree on everything.  Plus, fan opinions can change and so a writer shouldn't let fan desire rule them.  The problem can be with the excecution of the writers ideas.  They think they are telling one story (Gwen is awesome and she and Jack are this great team), but I'm not seeing it.  So, it's important for writers to be aware of why viewers aren't buying the story they are telling and make adjustments so that the story makes sense.  If the story rings true, I think fans will accept it even if they aren't thrilled with a writer's decision.  The key is that the story and characters have to be well excecuted and the writer's intention clear unless ambiguity is intended.  And if writers leave things ambiguous than they can't blame the fans for having strong opinions contrary to the writers.  A lot watching Torchwood is looking for breadcrumbs of stories.  They don't fully explore things and leave viewers to theorize and fanwank to make the stories make sense.

 

It does not ring true to me that Jack should always suffer while Gwen can do whatever she wants and get rewarded.  It's a big reason why Gwen is not rootable for me.  I'm remembering a conversation on TWOP about RTD saying something like how you can't brutalize Snow White (Gwen).  Meanwhile the prince (Jack) can be tortured constantly.  I don't know why Gwen is spared while other characters I like better suffer and or die.

 

I also hate shipper baiting where writers throw romantic stuff at fans of a pairing just to keep that fan base on the hook but then go nowhere with it.  If you don't want viewers rooting for a relationship, you shouldn't include it in the show and then act shocked when viewers feel cheated out of the romance the writers implied had a chance.

 

I think the writers could have benefited by trying to figure out why Ianto and Tosh were popular and why Gwen is controversal when she was intended to be more universally popular.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Luckylyn

[indeed]

Torchwood is guilty of all of that--they baited, they listened, and they ignored! And yet I still watched the show... LOL

[Luckylyn]

The good ideas, the potential, and my affection for Jack are what kept me watching. 

[indeed]

Well, yes, it had LOADS of potential. They suckered me in with that and cast chemistry (for the most part). Can't say I have much affection for Jack anymore...and certainly not for the show as it is now.

I remember having issues with Farscape letting the fans influence them at times, too, but that show still remained good IMO.

Edited April 25, 2014 by indeed

[ElleryAnne]

The problem can be with the excecution of the writers ideas.  They think they are telling one story (Gwen is awesome and she and Jack are this great team), but I'm not seeing it.  So, it's important for writers to be aware of why viewers aren't buying the story they are telling and make adjustments so that the story makes sense.  If the story rings true, I think fans will accept it even if they aren't thrilled with a writer's decision.

 

 

It's Writing 101.  Show, don't tell.  There's no quicker way to make the audience hate a character than to keep telling us she's awesome and having the rest of the characters tell us she's awesome, but never let us decide for ourselves that she's awesome based on anything we're shown about her. 

 

 I will never think Gwen is awesome just because Jack thinks so.  And you know when I'll think it even LESS?  When Jack thinks it even more, in response to the PTB not understanding why I'm not buying what they're selling. (I've been down this road with other shows. It never stops being annoying.)  And it's not even that I hate Gwen, because I don't.  But I hate the way I think I'm expected to feel about her just because someone amongst the PTB was thrilled to sign up the actress for the part.

[tarotx]

Shipping has nothing to do with show cannon. And I hate when the show brings what doesn't seem right to me into cannon. For example I can't ever get into the Buffy and Spike as cannon. Buffy doing another vampire just is nasty to me. Spike had no soul and Buffy killed a million billion soulless vampires for no good reason if vampires can be reformed. SMG was never into that ship either and many fans never took her feelings into consideration.

 

I love Gwen but I'm always looking at her as I think she sees herself instead of how she is....I see all the characters that way. They project how they see themselves and their main character traits. I think that is just the show's dynamic. 

 

I Ship Gwen and Jack but not in a romantic way. Never that! They have a father daughter relationship for the most part imo. And I always cringe when I think the PTB were trying to show something more.

 

It's hard for me to judge Jack and Ianto since I came into the show well after that ship was cannon, Ianto was already dead and the show already aired all it's filmed episodes. But they have such a cute dynamic. It's sweet and fun to watch. Even when it's sad.

Edited April 26, 2014 by tarotx

[Luckylyn]

I think I could have liked Gwen with all her flaws becasue she does have some good qualities.  I like her intense curiosity and that she's not a yes woman.  The turning point for Gwen with me was confessing her affair with Owen to Rhys and retconning him so he wouldn't remember.  The affair itself was something I could easily get past, but the retconning crossed a line for me.  I feel that like that was the beginning of Gwen doing horrible things without consequences.  I kept expecting a big payoff that never happened.  Although Jack let everyone at Torchwood get away with pretty much anything, the others suffered and eventually were murdered.  Jack frequently has to suffer brutality whether or not he's to blame while Gwen is untouched.  She gets to be the hero, have the husband, the child, Jack's admiration, and her life.   No one else is allowed a happy ending.  That took Gwen to a bad place for me.    When my favorites die and she lives, I feel a strong resentment.

 

The only character I had more trouble with was Owen because I couldn't get past the rape he commits in the first episode.  I am forever troubled that the writers didn't comprehend that drugging someone into being attracted to you and having sex with them is rape. 

[catrox14]

I could have even gotten over Gwen retconning Rhys if the show had at least ONCE acknowledge that she did it.  And no, her crying over her pizza is not that.  They had the perfect opportunity with Meat to revisit that terrible crime. Hey writers, you know what would have helped?   If she had said, "NO I won't retcon him ....AGAIN". Jack would have been, "Wait, what?!", she could have confessed what she did to Jack and then Jack could have understood why she didn't want to do it this time. Since they never went there, I finally realized that Gwen would never suffer a real consequence for any shitty thing she did.  And I can't root for a character that has no comeuppance ever.   Like I am a huge fan of the Dean Winchester character now.  That guy has done some questionable things in the course of saving people, hunting things but he sure as hell suffers consequences.  But Gwen? Not once.  And she's also rewarded with a husband that doesn't know that she mind wiped him, and has a baby now.   Gods I'm bitter about that LOL

[Dizzy76]

 

The problem can be with the excecution of the writers ideas.  They think they are telling one story (Gwen is awesome and she and Jack are this great team), but I'm not seeing it.  So, it's important for writers to be aware of why viewers aren't buying the story they are telling and make adjustments so that the story makes sense.  If the story rings true, I think fans will accept it even if they aren't thrilled with a writer's decision.

 

This right here is the very thing that made me connect this discussion with Torchwood.  And there have been plenty of times (Buffy/Angle universe) where I wasn't thrilled with where the writers took things but accepted it.  I know not everyone agrees (wrote this before I saw your comment tarotx, lol) but for me it's the best example I have.

 

 

I also hate shipper baiting where writers throw romantic stuff at fans of a pairing just to keep that fan base on the hook but then go nowhere with it.  If you don't want viewers rooting for a relationship, you shouldn't include it in the show and then act shocked when viewers feel cheated out of the romance the writers implied had a chance.

 

Why SO many fans had problems with Children of Earth.  They promoted the hell out of the "developing relationship" between Jack and Ianto and even released promo pics of the two of them as if we were going to really get something.  As we all know, not too many fans were happy with the development that we actually saw.

 

 

I will never think Gwen is awesome just because Jack thinks so.  And you know when I'll think it even LESS?  When Jack thinks it even more, in response to the PTB not understanding why I'm not buying what they're selling.

 

This just made me laugh.  So true!

 

After Children of Earth I found that I had to treat Torchwood like a boyfriend that I had an unhealthy relationship with.  I had to breakup from it and gain some perspective for a while.  I mourned the possibilities and what might have been.  And after a while, I was able to look at it and remember the good times and why I was attracted to it in the first place.  Oddly enough, fanfiction helped me reach this last stage.  Fanfiction also showed me that I don't actual hate Gwen as a character idea at all and that I think she is a vital part of the dynamic of the team.  I just hate the way the show handled her - at just about every turn.

 

 

 

 

And I can't root for a character that has no comeuppance ever.   ...Gwen? Not once.  And she's also rewarded with a husband that doesn't know that she mind wiped him, and has a baby now.   Gods I'm bitter about that LOL

 

I just saw this but I want to raise my hand to agree.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Luckylyn]

On some level, I'm still waiting for Rhys to find out about the retcon.  It's like this loose thread that won't go away even though the show won't acknowledge it.  I still can't believe they had Gwen say at her wedding that there would be no secrets in her marriage sitting at a table with the man she cheated on Rhys with and Rhys still ignorant about the retcon. 

Edited April 25, 2014 by Luckylyn

[indeed]

Even if they had an episode where the truth comes out, I'm still not going to warm up to Gwen. Maybe if she captures Bilis and schemes to get her "friends" back because she feels so bad about seeing herself as more special than them, I might start to thaw. But there's nothing she can do...

[Swansong]

I think the show was so obsessed with being so edgy and dark that it would have the characters behave in unappealing ways, not only without any real consequences for the characters, but worst without seemingly any real self-awareness on the part of the show as to how that might play out to the audience. Owen's rape scene in the pilot is a big example of that. It's clearly played for laughs, but it's not even ambiguous. The woman is clearly shown as not interested in doing anything with him at that point. It's pretty clear Owen spraying himself is in response to her blowing her off so it's weird that the show didn't seem to get that might prove an issue for the audience.

 

I probably would have liked Gwen better if they'd just treated her as just another character and not insisted on setting up this dichotomy between her and the rest of the characters where we're supposed to believe she's so much better than the other characters even when she pretty much exhibits the same shitty behaviour as them. I always think how much better I would have liked the scene where she sits with Jack in EOD if it had been just about her and her own personal issues and not a way for the show to go on about how much more she believes in Jack than the rest of the team, never mind that a few scenes earlier she's happy to betray him right along with the rest of them. Moments like that really killed the character for me because they just made her seem like the worst kind of hypocrite and the show seem so entirely tone deaf when it came to her character. Maybe if they hadn't worked overtime to tell me how she was the most brilliant creation ever even when she was behaving in these mind-numbingly stupid or mediocre ways and not insisted on having characters  praise her or stand in awe of her whether it was deserved or not I could have tolerated her better. Even now I get such a negative Pavlovian reaction because they really tried to force their opinion of how we should view the character instead of just letting the audience decide for themselves. And this constant underlying beat that she deserved good things just because she was Gwen and consequently so darn special while the other characters apparently only deserved abuse and misery and death just seemed so distasteful and obnoxious after a while it put me off the show. And then they'd still expect us to feel more for her losses than anyone else's on the show even though she actually suffered the least. By s4 I just found her such a caricature that I found myself rolling my eyes through most of her scenes.

 

 

Mainly, I think that whatever is organic to the story should be the priority regardless of fan opinion.  Fans aren't a monolith and won't agree on everything.  Plus, fan opinions can change and so a writer shouldn't let fan desire rule them.  The problem can be with the excecution of the writers ideas.  They think they are telling one story (Gwen is awesome and she and Jack are this great team), but I'm not seeing it.  So, it's important for writers to be aware of why viewers aren't buying the story they are telling and make adjustments so that the story makes sense.  If the story rings true, I think fans will accept it even if they aren't thrilled with a writer's decision.  The key is that the story and characters have to be well excecuted and the writer's intention clear unless ambiguity is intended.  And if writers leave things ambiguous than they can't blame the fans for having strong opinions contrary to the writers.  A lot watching Torchwood is looking for breadcrumbs of stories.  They don't fully explore things and leave viewers to theorize and fanwank to make the stories make sense.

 

Pretty much this. The shows that really work for me aren't the ones that pander to my fantasies of what should happen (although it's nice when those moments happen), but shows that make me happy to still follow along with a story regardless of the direction the show decides to take. For me Torchwood was vague most of the time rather than ambiguous and that wasn't particularly satisfying and seemed to squander some pretty interesting potential moments for character development and story telling. It clearly had one or two characters whose story lines merited real attentions and characters they let languish. When I say I hated the deaths on this show I do, I prefer it when characters get to live, personally, but the reason why it was so annoying with this show in a way it wasn't with other shows I like that have killed off characters I love is because it never felt like the show cared as much about developing the characters as well as they could while they were around as much as they did about killing them off. Ianto only seemed to get development if they were intending to kill him off. Tosh gets a good death scene, but not much in the way of good, consistent development before that. It ultimately made their deaths so unsatisfying. 

 

I watch a lot of shows some very good, some very bad and some indifferent, but Torchwood  is one of the few shows that mostly just left me feeling disappointed. A lot of people hate s1, but that's where the show was potentially most interesting to me in terms of possible story lines, character development etc, but the writing really lets it down I think. It never really became that potentially interesting for me again as a show. But the way they went about being dark and edgy often felt pretty immature or just heavy-handed, the character development was too hit and miss, potentially interesting story lines were ignored and too often, whether it made much sense or not, story lines ultimately had to revolve around Gwen and her reactions. They would set up these potentially organic, development stepping stones/ tensions within the team and then ignore them for something less organic and more contrived and artificial just so they could make their tired points about how Gwen was the heart and Jack as Jesus or whatever the point de jour happened to be. I always feel like I should say positive things about the show because there were things I liked about it, but I think the negatives soured the positives somewhat.

[tarotx]

There is a lot of character resets in Torchwood. The characters often reset to their caricature/outline characteristics. When somethings sticks I now know said character is about to die :p 

[Swansong]

 

After Children of Earth I found that I had to treat Torchwood like a boyfriend that I had an unhealthy relationship with.  I had to breakup from it and gain some perspective for a while.  I mourned the possibilities and what might have been.  And after a while, I was able to look at it and remember the good times and why I was attracted to it in the first place.  Oddly enough, fanfiction helped me reach this last stage.  Fanfiction also showed me that I don't actual hate Gwen as a character idea at all and that I think she is a vital part of the dynamic of the team.  I just hate the way the show handled her - at just about every turn.

Heh, so true. Except that every time I think I've gained some perspective I bump into him again and am reminded why he annoyed me so much in the first place and the cycle begins all over again.

 

 

I will never think Gwen is awesome just because Jack thinks so.

 

Lol! Yes. It's not as if they did a good job of making me trust Jack's judgment even all those times the show insisted he was in the right. I mean he was  certainly entitled to think so, of course, but I always thought that said more about him and his issues than her and her virtues.

[Dizzy76]

 

Heh, so true. Except that every time I think I've gained some perspective I bump into him again and am reminded why he annoyed me so much in the first place and the cycle begins all over again.

 

LOL, that's why I try my hardest not to "bump into him" and avoid.  So far so good.

[Captanne]

Children of Earth destroyed the series for me.

 

Oh, and RTD destroyed the entire show -- literally -- with CoE so, no surprise it ruined it for me.  The show went up in smoke along with Ianto, Myfanwy, the Morgue, the Archives, everything in the Hub.

 

Talk about your slash and burn.  There was nothing left.  

 

Jack and I both beamed off that particular planet and, although I didn't hate Miracle Day, I could have lived without it.

 

(It gave us that marvelous, "I will skin you alive" comment to Gwen from Jack.  That was music to my ears.)

 

ETA:  I can't remember -- when did Ten pimp Lt. Frame to Jack?  Was that in Miracle Day or Ten's "farewell episode"?

Edited April 26, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

Farewell episode.

[Captanne]

In a very weird turn of events, I'm feeling vaguely nauseous today so I'm not inclined to be very charitable to Ten at the moment.  I never warmed up to him (although I like David Tenant well enough.)

[Dizzy76]

I loved Ten but it most certainly wasn't a blind love by any means. He made me angry quite often.  He was horrible a lot of the times but I think that was one of the things I liked (how odd is that??).  He was far from perfect.  And I liked seeing him suffer the consequences for his behavior.  I cheered when Martha stood up for herself and kind of told him what's what.  Hell, I always liked it when he was put in his place even though it didn't happen often enough.  I admit thought, that most of the reason I loved Ten was because of David and how he played him so take that for what you will.

 

I will say that the way Ten treated Jack probably grated on me the worst though.  He never seemed to acknowledge any growth and the pimping of Frame right after COE was just....ugh!  I still haven't figured out if I should blame the Doctor/Jack dynamic on The Doctor or if it really was just a matter of Doctor Who Jack being written in such a way that they just threw out any positive things Jack had gained within himself so they could keep the old Doctor/Jack dynamic without putting in any work to grow the relationship in a nice organic way.

 

MAN, I rambled that. LOL!  Sorry.  Hope you guys understood what I was trying to say.  Someone will probably say it better soon and I'll just quote it and agree with it. 

[tarotx]

I love 10 but he's very flawed not just eccentric . Except probably Donna, 10's relationship with all his companions are a bit icky.

 

I didn't mind the pimping of Frame though. 10 was just trying to give a last ditch good will to all the people who emotionally torched him. I'm not sure what Jack did with Frame nor how much time passed since COE. 

 

If Jack is the face of Boe then The Doctor knows Jack is just a child within his development. 

[ElleryAnne]

I tend to give Ten some leeway in the way he related to Jack, because if the thing you've trusted for 900 years to support you through the universe tries so hard to shake someone off that it flings you all to the end of the world, it's probably hard to override the instinct to distrust that someone.  I never think of the two of them together without hearing, "You're an impossible thing, Jack," in my mind.  I think it was rare for the Doctor to find someone he couldn't explain, and he didn't quite know what to do with him.

[Dizzy76]

It wasn't Jack being an impossible thing that got to me.  I do understand that.  I know it hurt Jack and all but...yeah, I get it.  It was the other stuff.  Jack around the Doctor meant ignoring that Jack did any kind of growing in the time that he was away from the Doctor.  Does anyone get what I mean?  It's like the Doctor expected Jack the be the same as he was when they first met even though he knows that Jack's lived a buttload of years and is running a Torchwood branch.  And because the Doctor doesn't see Jack any differently, Jack reverts back a bit to that guy.

 

Not sure if I am making sense.

[ElleryAnne]

I think I see what you mean.  I'm used to thinking that when the Doctor hears the word "Torchwood" it just adds to his distrust of Jack, but yes, but taking into consideration the fact that the Doctor should be aware of how much Jack has been doing in those 150 years, it would make sense that the Doctor would give Jack some credit for it. 

[tarotx]

Jack often reverts back to his Empty Child zeal and all his many faults. Maybe Jack assumes a bit of the persona of the people he hangs with?

[Captanne]

The problem I have is that, "but for the Doctor", Jack wouldn't be this way.  And imagine what a torture it is for Jack.  His personality loves life and especially loves L-O-V-E in its myriad manifestations.  He loves other beings and genuinely is one of the most social creatures ever created for television.

 

Now, give this man eternal life.

 

Forever, he is destined to crave attention and love because that's who he is -- and then he's destined to forever lose it.

 

Everyone he ever loves will die.  They must.  Like the speed of light, death seems to be a constant in most science fiction universes.

 

In some ways Jack reminds me of Orpheus who loses Eurydice at the last moment to death because he turned to look at her.  Put any name in the Whovian universe and that person is Eurydice.  It's literally a tragedy of epic proportions and I think Jack is, too.

 

I would feel a bit better about Ten if rather than shrugging it off while Jack is using that very curse to save everyone with a glib, "You're an impossible thing, Jack"* and fucking own what he did to someone who loves him deeply.

 

Ugh, Ten makes me want to spit and then bring Jack to his teenage-crush senses.

[Swansong]

I get why they had a Doctor Who Jack and a Torchwood Jack, but I do think it's a pity that neither show really addressed what the Doctor did to Jack or how that affected Jack. I agree that Jack basically reverting to who he was when we first see him on Doctor Who kind of negated everything he had gone through and, worst, trivialized what the Doctor did to him. I mean he basically abandoned him to live out his life on a dying space station for an eternity with no idea what had happened to him and if we go by his actions and words wouldn't have given his actions a second thought, but for Jack being so determined to eventually track him down. And this despite the fact that Jack was willing to fight and die beside him for one of his causes and that what happened to him wasn't even due to anything he did (although both the show and the Doctor tend to act that way). And honestly I don't care how impossible Jack initially seems to the Doctor ( and lets face it both he and the TARDIS seem to get over it pretty quickly, which I guess is supposed to make the Doctor's actions seem better, but actually make them even worst to me) if this had happened to Rose there's no way he would have treated her in this way. Their whole conversation was so urgh to me because the Doctor seems so remorseless and indifferent. It's all about his discomfort and Jack basically has to just come around and get over it.  I think both the writing and acting make the Doctor seem a lot more unpleasant than he really needed to be in that moment. Maybe if there had been a sense of regret about how he handled things or something, but there's none of that.

 

I was thinking maybe I would have enjoyed Torchwood more if it really had been a show about a team and an institution instead of what it seemed to really want to be which is a show about a companion and her immortal time-traveller just set in Cardiff. There were quite a few story lines where it would have been nice to see more than just Gwen's point of view or how events affected Gwen, like the end of Cyberwoman, the team, not just Gwen dealing with Suzie's death and return, even something like Eugene, who is supposedly obsessed with Torchwood, but it ends up just being about another person's obsession with Gwen. I think I would have liked that episode about a billion times more if it really had given us an outsiders view of Torchwood and their lives. 

 

Jack supposedly spends most of his immortal life at Torchwood, but we never really get to learn much about its history or his really and I would have loved to learn more about Ianto's time at TW1 and how it affected his position at TW3 considering their attitude to their TW1 teammates. I would have loved it if they'd done more with the idea that Tosh was essentially Torchwood's prisoner. Basically I would have loved to have seen them do more with the idea that this team worked for an organisation with a long and complicated history, that there was basically now just them and one lone guy in Scotland to represent.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Swansong

[ElleryAnne]

But the Doctor didn't actually cause Jack to be immortal, did he?  I thought Rose/Tardis accidentally caused that, and that the Doctor didn't even know about it until Jack tracked him down 150 years later?  (It's possible I've got that wrong - I haven't seen the episode in a while.)  I do agree that it would've been nice if the Doctor had apologized to Jack for inadvertently being the catalyst in what happened, but I never thought he was responsible for either Jack's condition or the fact that Jack was left behind, alive.  I thought the Doctor truly believed Jack was dead at that point.

 

It's literally a tragedy of epic proportions and I think Jack is, too.

 

 

I totally agree with this.  Regardless of where the blame for it lies, Jack's story has a lot of tragic (in the classical sense) elements.  

 

 

Jack and the Doctor face a lot of the same issues.  In both cases, they have to deal with the fact that their own lives put them in a position to live long after they've suffered through the deaths of those they love (and to repeatedly go through those losses with new people), and they both carry the weight of responsibility of being able to impact lives much more than ordinary people, and not always for the better.  In the Doctor's case, his world is gone.  In Jack's case, his personal world is gone (that being the life he originally thought to have for himself).  Whatever they would have been under other circumstances, the Doctor's bursts of manic energy and Jack's devil-may-care attitude have become defense mechanisms to get them through the moments between experiencing the next painful situation and dealing with it.  

 

In some ways, Jack deals with his fate in a far more mature manner.  The Doctor runs to escape from it.  He travels around in time and space, and when his companions pry he tries not to talk about or think about the parts that hurt (though he does eventually open up sometimes). He suffers the loss of his companions in his personal life, but he usually knows they're out there somewhere.   But Jack chooses to stay with the people he's made a commitment to, and so he faces the suffering that comes with his role, repeatedly.

 

If anything, I feel like the Doctor's 900 years of being ultimately alone in his own tragedy and relying on his own ways to cope has kept him from recognizing a sort of kindred spirit in Jack, something that could benefit them both because they're NOT really alone in it unless they choose to be.  Or unless one of them chooses to be, which in turn makes the choice for both of them. Which in this case leaves Jack more alone than he should have to be.  (Which, maybe, is what some people have been saying all along and I'm just understanding now as I type it out?)

Edited April 27, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[Swansong]

He did know.  He tells him that's why he left him behind in Utopia after Jack says that all the time the Doctor knew what had happened to him. I also think there's a comic relief episode where it's also brought up that confirms it. Plus he's not exactly surprised when Jack comes back to life which you would expect him to be if he had expected Jack to be died.

 

I don't think the Doctor is responsible for Jack being immortal. but he was responsible for how he chose to handle it. It's hard for me to feel much sympathy for someone's loneliness when this is an example of how he treats his companions when they become inconvenient to him though.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Swansong

[ElleryAnne]

Ah, well then yes, that's probably the sort of thing that needs an apology.

[Captanne]

ElleryAnne, you've hit on something there and puts into words what bugs me so much about Ten and Jack.  If there had been any hint of intent on Nine's part (and there wasn't -- it was all unhappy coincidence that Rose looked into the TARDIS and became Eternal-Life-Giving); it would be as if Nine had created Jack's immortality to provide himself with a playmate through time.  Except that The Doctor isn't immortal; but, merely long-lived.  And he didn't intend it.  And what an unbearable horror it would be if he meant to give it to a man for whom Love is All and then to spurn him and trivialize his love as Ten does to Jack.

 

OMG.

 

The cruelty and sadness of that would be unbearable.

 

Ten gets close enough to that reality without it being actuality.  Thank God.

[Luckylyn]

 

I was thinking maybe I would have enjoyed Torchwood more if it really had been a show about a team and an institution instead of what it seemed to really want to be which is a show about a companion and her immortal time-traveller just set in Cardiff.

For me, the most interesting character with the most potential for interesting exploration that got ignored was Torchwood itself.  There was a weatlh of history to be mined and how it can be a force for good or evil depending on who is shaping it.  Also, a better exploration on how Torchwood and the power it gives people access to can affect characters is something I really wanted to see more of.  I feel like the pilot started exploring it and how the tech can bring out the worst in people because power can be corrupting.  Then, there was a shift the show became everybody dies except Jack and Gwen. 

 

I feel like the premise was how Gwen either gets corrupted or helps weed out corruption with her collegues in the beginning, but the show didn't really acknowledge how Gwen had become corrupted.  I saw her critcize others for letting Torchwood change them negatviely with little acknowledgement of how Torchwood changed her for the worse.  There was this message that Gwen was somehow above it while at the same time I saw over and over how Gwen was just as bad as the others.  In fact, I found her worse because she acted as if she were better.  The hypocrisy that wasn't really acknowledged on the show annoyed the hell out of me.   I wouldn't mind Gwen as a self righteous know it all hypocrite if the characters treated her accordingly.  Instead, she breaks rules just like everyone else while feeling superior and gets rewarded while the others die which reinforces Gwen's view of her specialness.  I appreciated Immortal Sins acknowledgement of that, but I don't feel like it resonated.  That scene happened but by the end of the episode I don't feel like Gwen or Jack and their dynamic is changed by it.  They are back to being bff adventurers.

 

I also hated the message that Gwen having a boyfriend somehow made her better than the others.  Also, Jack made such a big deal out of pushing Gwen to hold on to Rhys and have a life outside Torchwood while not seeming concerned about if other members of his team have a life outside work.  Rhys did not stop Gwen from being just as comsumed with Torchwood as the others.  In fact, she allowed Torchwood to co-opt Rhys instead of protecting him from the dangers.

[Captanne]

From the very beginning of Torchwood, the coolest twist for me was that the Queen created it to destroy The Doctor who had spent the entire episode saving the British Empire.  I completely agree that Torchwood itself was the neatest character and I love the acronym cleverness.  

[Swansong]

 

I also hated the message that Gwen having a boyfriend somehow made her better than the others.

That bugged me too. Jack's obsession with it also seemed absurd particularly since it seemed to rest on the conceit that in the entire 100+ history of Torchwood, both as a Cardiff institute and a large London institute, no-one had ever had a relationship with someone outside of Torchwood and so Gwen was just so unique because of it. What about UNIT? They did a similar job to Torchwood. Was it an unheard of thing there too?

 

I wouldn't have minded them acknowledging the possible unique challenges she might face since Rhys wasn't a part of Torchwood if the show or even the character herself had ever considered the fact that just because she had challenges that the rest of the team might not have to face that didn't mean that, say having a partner within didn't also come with its own set of challenges and problems that had to be navigated that she might not appreciate or have to deal with. But the show seemed to work on the premise that how it affected Gwen was ultimately the only thing that really mattered and if it didn't affect her in some way that automatically made it trivial and not worth much consideration. 

 

And pretty much, yes, I think I would have enjoyed a show where the characters were window through which we got to understand a place like Torchwood rather than Torchwood serving merely as a gateway into Gwen's life.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Swansong

[Luckylyn]

Plus, I think the show made Gwen's issues with keep Rhys in the dark about her job more complicated than they needed to be.  I don't know why she just couldn't tell him that her work required confidentiality and that she could never tell him anything rather than lie or endanger him with the truth.  There still would be lots of drama from the pressures Gwen has a work that she can't share at home and tension because Gwen is more married to her job than to her husband.  The lies weren't really necessary.

 

Is having a relationship with someone outside of Torchwood selfish since you are likely to end up dead and could get your partner killed in the crossfire?  That's a question the show never really explored.  Was not retconning Rhys the right thing for Rhys himself?  Is he better off knowing or ignorant?   At least, if Torchwood brings danger home Rhys will be prepared since he knows the truth.   Is it fair to stay working for Torchwood after you have children since everyone not Gwen is supposed to die in 5 years or less?  I once read a fic where Ianto retires from Torchwood because he wants to have a family and otherwise he'd be dead before his son made it to preschool. Families and the lethal nature of Torchwood aren't something I can see mixing well.   The challenges of Torchwood itselt; the sacrifices to be made and the potential for corruption are what I wanted to be thoroughly explored.

[Dizzy76]

So much to respond to but I don't want to ramble. Let's see:

 

- Hated that I started watching Torchwood to find out more about Torchwood and how it changed Jack only to get a Gwen focused story.

 

- Torchwood was always at it's best when it seemed more like a team-focused show.  The rare moments that it chose to go there.

 

- As with a ton of other things on Torchwood, some of the issues you guys brought up were poked at in the show but never truly explored.  I think of Jack and Alice/Melissa and wished they would have tried to actually tell that story (and not just throw it in for THE DRAMA and so that Jack could loose some more people he loved) and explore that relationship from season 1.  Not only would that have been an exploration of Jack and the limits on his relationships because he's immortal, but that also could have delved into how Torchwood impacts a relationship in general. 

 

- I get why working for someplace like Torchwood could be bad for those who have partners outside of the organization. But just like superheroes I never understood why not telling those in your family what is really going on is somehow suppose to keep them safe.  What possible danger could Rhys have really faced that he wouldn't have faced staying in the dark?  Would Gwen's family have really been left alone in Miracle Day had Rhys not known about Torchwood?  I hardly think so.  No the real drama and conflict would have been more about the amount of time Gwen spent doing her job versus building a stable relationship with Rhys.  And it felt like they tried to go there a few times but it never got fleshed out in a way that was true.

 

- My favorite episode of Torchwood has to be Fragments and it's because we finally got some background and focus on people other than Gwen.  The downside of that episode though is that none of what was brought up in Fragments got explored after the episode was over.  Sadly, it also felt like some of the things brought up weren't thought about beforehand because prior episodes don't do much to support them.  My favorite thing is watching a show and then coming across an episode like Fragments and feeling a bunch a puzzle pieces fit into place.  Not only does it make me want to go back and watch the episodes before it to catch all the little clues I may or may not have picked up, but it gives me a huge amount of respect for the writers because it let's me know that the characters were thought about and fleshed out even if I haven't seen all of that work and effort on screen yet.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Luckylyn]

 

I think of Jack and Alice/Melissa and wished they would have tried to actually tell that story (and not just throw it in for THE DRAMA and so that Jack could loose some more people he loved)

I completely agree.  Introducing Alice and Stephen only to kill Stephen and alienate Alice just a couple of episodes later felt really cheap.  Alice should have been introduced as at least an idea in Season 1 or 2.  Jack's history with Alice's mother Lucia also was something I wish could have been explored

[ElleryAnne]

And what an unbearable horror it would be if he meant to give it to a man for whom Love is All and then to spurn him and trivialize his love as Ten does to Jack.

 

 

I never had the impression that Ten had any awareness that Jack might've loved him.  I always figured Jack was in the same boat as Martha - in that place where, if the other party gives you the right signals, you'll let yourself fall, but you're not yet gone so far that you can't stop yourself.  (Except in Jack's case, if the Doctor did reciprocate, that could potentially be one epic love.)  I think Martha was more open than Jack, yet Ten seemed only barely aware of her potential feelings for him.  

 

I never had a problem seeing both Nine and Ten as a Doctor who cared very much for people but still maintained a specific kind of distance because he knew all of his relationships were doomed to be temporary.  Ten, especially, seemed to carry the weight of so much sorrow on his shoulders. When I watch him, I see an underlying sadness, and I never really get the impression that he believes anyone - Jack included - could be better off with him in their lives than without.  He's coming from such a different place psychologically. That's probably why I'm so forgiving of him regarding Jack.  (It's probably also why I'm not really a fan of Eleven, because he doesn't fit what I'd previously considered the Doctor to be.)  I should add the caveat that some of my impressions are likely due to the fact that I originally watched the episodes out of order, and moods from one episode probably color other ones differently that way.

 

 

I wouldn't mind Gwen as a self righteous know it all hypocrite if the characters treated her accordingly. 

 

 

I'd settle for even one character who just simply doesn't like her.  I would like her so much more if she wasn't inexplicably exempt from being disliked by at least one person without the reason being that the other person was bad for disliking her.   

[Captanne]

I don't think someone necessarily has to know they are the subject of someone's adoration to be an asshole to them.  That almost willful ignorance that is just as painful as being intentionally spurned -- it adds to the trivialization of the love.

[Dizzy76]

 

I'd settle for even one character who just simply doesn't like her.  I would like her so much more if she wasn't inexplicably exempt from being disliked by at least one person without the reason being that the other person was bad for disliking her.

 

Not only are we to believe that everyone liked her, but they made it so just about every other guy wanted to get into her pants.  So either you liked her or wanted to sleep with her or just plain loved her beyond common sense.  There were so many times I wanted Andy to just tell her to go stuff it and then really mean it ad further have nothing to do with her.

 

 

As for whether it was worse that the Doctor knew that Jack (and Martha) loved him like that is kind of irrelevant to me when we talk about how he treats them over all.  I won't blame him for breaking their hearts because not only was he stupidly unaware, but they both kind of knew the score about where his heart truly laid during their time with him.  But when we especially talk about Jack, the Doctor really dropped the ball just treating Jack as a friend.  That's where my problem comes from.

 

I've been Martha and Jack more than once and it hurts like nobody's business but I never blamed the person for not "getting it" or returning my feelings.  And boy did I have a Doctor in my life who basically told me that he wasn't sure if he was friends with me because he really wanted to be or because he was so in love with my best friend and I was...well, her best friend.  Him I was mad at for a nice little while but ultimately I knew that for my own sake I had to step away from him for a while until I could handle being around him knowing what was what.  Or I could tell him how I felt so that he would have a clue that he was hurting me the way he was.  I chose to take the friendship break. 

[Captanne]

Yeah, I totally get the "Don't fall in love with me" angst the Doctor brings to every party.  (And I am mad at that guy in your life, Dizzy76, on general principal.)

 

And I don't mean to trivialize Jack's and Martha's agency in the situation -- they are adults, after all.  But, I do have to give them the win in the "he hurt me, that bastard should take all the blame" department because they aren't on a level playing field.  No one ever had to cope with the likes of The Doctor before.

 

Add to it, I totally agree that Ten's behaviour around Jack was spectacularly shitty.  Especially in the radiation room -- on very, very many levels.

[ElleryAnne]

I guess I just see their relationship - or rather, their personalities and contributions to the relationship - differently than everyone else.   (Entirely aside from the Doctor's behavior, that one guy sounds like a prick, Dizzy76.)  I don't see Ten as an asshole.  I see Owen as an asshole with Tosh, and I see Rose as an asshole with Mickey, but I've never seen Ten as being like them with either Jack or Martha. 

 

btw - I hope no one takes me sticking up for the Doctor as any kind of support for shitty behavior in real life.  Regardless of how differently we see Jack and the Doctor sometimes, I would never stick up for anyone being intentionally hurtful of anyone else. 

[Swansong]

I thought he was kind of shitty with Martha especially in the beginning, but even there my bigger issue is with RTD and his issues than Ten really. But my issues with him and Jack don't really have anything with him not acknowledging or reciprocating Jack's romantic feelings. I don't think he ever gave Jack the impression he was interested in him that way. On the other hand I think Ten's treatment of him as friend and companion was dickish and it always annoyed me that the show behaved as if Ten was entitled to treat him that way. 

 

 

Not only are we to believe that everyone liked her, but they made it so just about every other guy wanted to get into her pants.  So either you liked her or wanted to sleep with her or just plain loved her beyond common sense.  There were so many times I wanted Andy to just tell her to go stuff it and then really mean it ad further have nothing to do with her.

 

Even Suzie, who cheats death and outwits Gwen without breaking a sweat, comes to the conclusion on no real evidence at all other than her mere presence that Gwen is so much better than her in every way. Because apparently Gwen's brilliance just shines through so much even mere strangers to her can just sense it. And Suzie develops such an obsession with her she balls up her escape because she's unable to let her go. 

Edited April 29, 2014 by Swansong

[Captanne]

Swansong, I think we're on the same wavelength -- I just lump brotherly love in with erotic love for Jack.  IOW, I don't distinguish Jack's love of the Doctor between a desire to be his friend and a desire to be with him.  I'm not sure Jack would see a difference, either.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Captanne

[Dizzy76]

LOL, I feel kind of bad about sharing my personal story because it makes the guy come off worse than what he ended up being.  He literally had no clue what a dick moment that was.  He just thought he was sharing with me about his obsession with my best friend and just didn't realize that the way he choose to express that was so hurtful.  He ended up making it up to me later.

 

ANYWAY, Swansong summed up my Doctor/Jack issue better than I did so I'm going to say, "Yeah. what she said!"  LOL.  I agree that the Doctor never gave the impression that he was interested.  It's a little more confusing with Martha for me but I won't go into it all. 

 

Captanne, I think in the end you are correct about how Jack looked at things.  Jack kind of seemed like he would take whatever he could get from the Doctor and be happy - just as long as the Doctor wanted him around.

[Dizzy76]

Can someone here confirm this:

 

I was on another site reading posts/comments and someone commented about re-watching MD during a rebroadcasting of it on BBC America.  While they were watching, they noticed that the scene in which Gwen rants at Jack and then talks about how she feels more special because she survived when the rest of her co-workers didn't was edited so that she doesn't make that statement anymore.  They say that they also noticed it missing in the Netflix version as well.

 

I've only watched a bit of MD and have no need to re-watch the bits and pieces I saw so I'm not feeling too inclined to double check this.  But has anyone here noticed the change?  If this is indeed true, I find that very interesting.

[catrox14]

I just checked it on Netflix and her whole vile speech is there including the "I was special " but I will kill you for the sake of my daughter" blah blah blah.  And Jack's perfect response of "I will rip your skin from your skull" (hee). I believe though that whatever aired on BBCA was probably hacked to pieces because they hacked the crap out of Children of Earth.

 

Sigh, Barrowman just looked so gorgeous in this episode. I swear present day Jack tied up in the car threatening Gwen (and rightfully so) seems to have informed his batcrap crazy Malcolm Merlyn on Arrow(who I love! He's such a great villain!).

Edited May 18, 2014 by catrox14

[tarotx]

When I just watched that scene I was thinking about how all the tumblr/internet people who hate Gwen were probably like, 'we knew that Vile creature Gwen felt that way' :p And they were hoping for Jack to literally skin Gwen-LOL It wasn't Gwen's finalist moments that is for sure. 

 

JB is so cool being a cute charming evil man. I think I will be watching Arrow next since JB was moved to season regular for next season.

[Dizzy76]

Thanks, catrox14.  Maybe the person just wasn't paying close enough attention when watching the Netflix version.  Or I guess it's possible that Netflix could have changed things and then changed it back if the change was recent.  Who knows - Netflix does make changes every now and again.  The most common of course is when they change songs in TV shows because of copyrights and stuff.  Something I hate when it happens, especially when the original song that was used really impacted the feel of the scene/moment.

 

My husband got me to start watching Arrow even though I was a bit reluctant to and I'm glad he did.  I'm enjoying the show more than I thought I would.  And JB is great to watch!  Having Jack ruined a bit for me on Torchwood made me sad about not enjoying Barrowman like I wanted to but Arrow is making up for that. 

[catrox14]

I have to say as much that scene with Jack and Gwen was upsetting, I actually thought holy crap, Gwen is finally becoming self-aware! She knows she's done asshole things and she admits it, but NOPE, they handwaved it away like nothing ever happened between them with that stupid hug at the end of the episode. (DUMBEST MOST USELESS KIDNAPPING EVER)

 

Sadly, it reinforces that Gwen "No-Consequences" Cooper is the bestest snowflake that ever snowflaked.  I don't have to like a character (see Walter White) to "like" a character, if that makes sense. IMO RTD chickened out with Gwen. I would have probably actually "liked" Gwen more if they just let her own her faults and give her comeuppance from time to time..Hell even ONCE! 

 

sidebar: I think Arrow is GREAT. Seriously. It is actually my favorite show these days. Arrow and Supernatural are the only two shows that I will sit down and watch live with commercials.  Most things I will DVR and pick up about 15 minutes into the episode and fast forward through the ads.  

[Luckylyn]

 

I have to say as much that scene with Jack and Gwen was upsetting, I actually thought holy crap, Gwen is finally becoming self-aware! She knows she's done asshole things and she admits it, but NOPE, they handwaved it away like nothing ever happened between them with that stupid hug at the end of the episode. (DUMBEST MOST USELESS KIDNAPPING EVER)

 

Sadly, it reinforces that Gwen "No-Consequences" Cooper is the bestest snowflake that ever snowflaked.

 

Having Jack and Gwen immediately going back to be on good terms after her speech really ruined it's impact.  The no consequences for Gwen issue is what will always make me resent the character.