All Episodes Talk: Time Rifts in Cardiff and Beyond

[Captanne]

Just wondering if anyone has requested a forum for Torchwood or if it might be lurking somewhere under Doctor Who (there is a Jack Harkness joke waiting to happen, there.)

 

 

[Luckylyn]

Hey Captanne, I guess all the twopers will be headed here for Torchwood and other shows.  I'm glad the discussion can continue.

[Captanne]

I certainly hope so!!  

I got an email from BFF the other day about our winter here in DC.  (This is on topic, I swear.)  They have a swirling wooden artwork in their garden that is in the form of a helix.  Our winter has been so bad that the ice storms and wind formed icicles that grew almost perpendicular to the ground because of the centripetal forces. 

She aptly compared the helix and icicles to the "bad guy's" ships in Buckaroo Bonzai.

http://www.gonewiththetwins.com/pages/80s/screenshots/buckaroobanzai/002.jpg

Then she said sadly, as a last sentence, "Rawhide is my Ianto."

AWWWWWWWW.

SPOILER ALERT for a cult film that is decades old:  

RAWHIDE DIES NEEDLESSLY AND STUPIDLY OUT OF CHARACTER.

 

The bitter.  It never ends.

 

 

[Luckylyn]

A Buckaroo Bonzi reference.  I love you!  I haven't seen that movie in years.  Perfect Tommy is one of my top character names.

I don't know what it says about me that I'm still not over Ianto's stupidly written death.  I suppose it says something about GDL's performance really resonated.   I give him the credit over the writters because they didn't give him much to work with, but he managed to make Ianto extremely compelling.  I don't want to dimish the writers contribution because it definitely matters because there would be no Ianto without them.  I just think the character would have been different and not as appealing if he'd been played by another actor.

edited because I mixed up Perfect Tommy and Handsome Rob from The Italian Job for some reason.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Captanne]

I give GDL the lion's share of credit for Ianto.  Utterly.  The writers are not responsible for his keeping in character on screen even though he wasn't in the main dialogue.  (Another young actor who is very good at that is Jesse Spencer from "House".)  

And GDL's comic timing was/is impeccable.

Even when he was cringeworthy (frex:  crying) it was appropriate to the scene and the moment.

No one, really, but the actors can take credit for on screen chemistry so chalk another one up for GDL (and Barrowman.)  

It's hard for me to give the writers too much credit.  (And RTD is another matter entirely.)

 

Psst:  Wasn't it "Perfect Tommy"?

Edited March 29, 2014 by Captanne

[catrox14]

Oh man, captanne, you really should put warnings on those. I cannot unsee that! LOL

Anyway, I cannot fathom any other actors playing Jack or Ianto.  Like my brain say, nope, nope, nope.  Does not compute. They made those characters what they were in spite of the writing. 

[Captanne]

Oh, Buckaroo Bonzai (where is that sequel you promised us, guys??) was lightening in a bottle.  Peter Weller, Clancy Brown, one of those blonde actresses, John Lithgow, Jeff Goldblum -- just amazing.  And, Perfect Tommy.  LOL

It reminds me a bit of the Twinkie (™, me) that GDL played.  It's one of those moments that is captured and you kind of wonder if it should be forgotten and then you smile, shake your head and realize it's "kind of wonderful" instead.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

No one, really, but the actors can take credit for on screen chemistry so chalk another one up for GDL (and Barrowman.)

I'll give the writers credit for the stuff they write, but they didn't really write a lot for Ianto, did they? Especially in s1. And his comments in s1 weren't ever really that funny on paper, but the way he said them, deadpan serious, like maybe he was joking, but maybe he wasn't, always made laugh. I wish they'd kept that kind of humour for him in successive seasons instead of trying to make him sassy. I kind of liked that his humour was kind of off-beat in s1 and he was kind of odd. And his reactions in the background always made me laugh. And while Cyberwoman gets a lot of flack (certainly from me) and his acting is hit and miss and, yes the crying is sort of over the top, there are also more than a fair few moments when I think he's genuinely good. Like scene where he's behind the grate of the lift and the others are playing basketball, his reactions to Tanizaki man-handling Lisa, even the scene where Jack stops him to ask him for coffee and the scene where he calls Jack a monster. And that stopwatch scene. No real context, it doesn't make a lick of sense either in terms of character continuity or anything really. There's no build-up or follow through and yet the way they play it totally works for me. They totally made me buy that a stopwatch was the perfect pick up tool even though there's nothing remotely pickup worthy about a stopwatch and I suspect the scene was tact on last minute. The writing I think did a terrible job selling the idea that these two were involved, but from the way they were around each other throughout TKKS I totally bought they were doing it. I get the feeling this was the episode where they suddenly told the actors 'oh, and by the way, you two are supposed to be totally shagging'. 

And yep John Barrowman doesn't do all that much for me as an actor, although I do think there have been quite a few times when he's been genuinely good for me as Jack, but lordy, does his charisma prevent that character devolving into smarmy and unpleasant a lot of the time. I can imagine a better actor playing him and giving him more nuance, but I can't think of too many actors who could give him as much charm. 

Edited March 30, 2014 by Swansong

[Luckylyn]

Barrowman really is intensely charasmatic.  He really fits the larger than life mold that Jack represents.

[Captanne]

If RTD didn't write the character of Jack Harkness specifically with John Barrowman in mind, I'll eat my hat.  I have no proof of that assertion but I believe it with every fibre of my being.

I love all the scenes you mention, Swansong and have to laugh about the stopwatch because -- all the fanwanking in the world could never convince me what the "pickup" was in that line.  LOL  (I'm very old and have plenty of sexual experience, TMI, but I can't for the life of me think of something really sexually appealing about a stopwatch that isn't so strained as to think, "Aren't there more obvious things to do?"  LOL)

This is also speculation, but if I give the writers of S1 and 2 credit with Jack and Ianto, it's how they did their best (speculation, maybe they didn't give a rat's ass, IDK) to deal with no direction from On High (that's the speculation part atout RTD.)  

How one works with two charismatic actors who can make a stopwatch-over-a-friend's-corpse sexy without any affirmative "Yes, they are in a physical relationship and like each other" (that simple, for the love of God) from the Powers What Be, is quite beyond me.

 

ETA:  It's not so much that creative minds can't come up with something sexy to do with a stopwatch.  I have faith in human creativity.  I just don't think it's your standard, "Hey baby, come here often?" sort of pick up line.  My response would have to be, "A stopwatch?  We just met.  I don't know you that well -- yet."  LOL

Edited March 30, 2014 by Captanne

[Captanne]

PS:  Someone just blogged this this morning. It took me a minute to get the point but then I said, "Yes.  That look over that shot glass.  That look of recognition."    (I guess I have to give the Bartender Brad scene more credit.  I totally missed that.  Certainly more credit than that other bar scene -- you know, the one where Ten pimped Lt. Frame out to Jack?)

Edited March 30, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

RTD has said he had the idea of Captain Jack with John Barrowman in mind so he was definitely tailored to him

And lol yeah standing over the Suzie's corpse while they play sexy stopwatch games should be far more off putting than it is, but even that works somehow. Like I can buy Ianto as someone weird enough and awkward enough to proposition his boss while he's processing a colleague's body with his trusty stopwatch. So props to the actors. Because I'm not sure the show could have chosen a more inappropriate setting or a weirder sex toy.

I think if they'd left it at Brad the Bartender I'd find the moment poignant, but doesn't it become a thing in Miracle Day? That kind of kills the poignancy somewhat.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Swansong

[Captanne]

I actually have no problem with the pick up of Bartender Brad -- I found it almost as cathartic as Jack probably did.  (Especially now that I see the "love the coat" nod more clearly.)  It strikes me as very true to Jack's character, too.  (It warmed my heart when he joked with the dying Judas, er, Angelo, about "liking Ianto".)

 

"Miracle Day" was so bad in so very many ways but I liked it over all.  The one moment that rang the truest to me was when Jack told Gwen he'd rip her skin off.  Talk about "cathartic for the viewer" -- that was like water to a man lost in the desert.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

I actually have no problem with the pick up of Bartender Brad -- I found it almost as cathartic as Jack probably did.  (Especially now that I see the "love the coat" nod more clearly.)

I just remember them doing the same spiel with some random waiter too. I can't remember if happened anywhere else, with Angelo I guess. After a while it felt less poignant and more like 'ha, ha you thought this moment was special between Jack and Ianto. Well, guess what, it's not'. Apparently it just turned out that Jack just has some weird sex based Pavlovian response to people complimenting his coat. 

Edited March 30, 2014 by Swansong

[Luckylyn]

I prefer COE over MD which kinda surprised me considering my anger about Ianto's demise.  I felt a sense of urgency in COE which I think MD lacked.  Plus, I liked that we got to see the governemt pov, and the process to get to certain choices.  That's missing from MD.  Plus, there was a lot of filler (Oswald) that ended up pointless.  They could have used the Oswald time to show the effects of no one dying on the world.  I think world building is where MD failed.  One thing COE and MD share in common is the usual Torchwood incompetence.   I still don't get why Gwen starts MD on the run and then after she's blown up a government facility on camera she's totally living in the open.  Why wasn't she arrested and why weren't they hiding?

[catrox14]

I really liked Brad the Bartender.  I wish we had seen more of him...and by more I mean his character not full frontal(which I would not have minded either because based on his full rear-all...please and thank you!). It can't be easy to show up on set and make sexytimes with John Barrowman. Okay well that probably is easy but you know what I mean!  Even in that short time frame, I thought Dillon Casey did a good job giving Brad some kind of perspective and personality.  If they ever do another series, I'd love for him to make an appearance again.  And based on his role in Nikita, he'd make a great Torchwood agent.

 

I think world building is where MD failed.  One thing COE and MD share in common is the usual Torchwood incompetence.   I still don't get why Gwen starts MD on the run and then after she's blown up a government facility on camera she's totally living in the open.  Why wasn't she arrested and why weren't they hiding?

Oh, Miracle Day.  What a sad waste of such a potentially brilliant story.  There were some really great things about it and some really terrible things.  Hmmm, now that I think about it, it was pretty much Torchwood all the way! 

Edited March 30, 2014 by catrox14

[Swansong]

 

I think world building is where MD failed.  One thing COE and MD share in common is the usual Torchwood incompetence.

I agree. The world-building is terrible in MD. So so bad it's almost funny. I think even though COE  is also a world wide threat it benefits because they focus the action so completely in London and Wales and the action moves so quickly you kind of forget it's supposed to be a world problem. And Torchwood being on the run works better in COE than in MD because after a while you begin to wonder why they're bothering. None of the people chasing them seem remotely interested in catching them even when they do catch them. The most egregious moment was in episode 7/8 when Angelo's granddaughter has Gwen's family kidnapped to force her to kidnap Jack and bring him to them and then basically says 'only joking we knew you'd come anyway if we just told you Angelo wanted to see you. Seriously? 

 

I still don't get why Gwen starts MD on the run and then after she's blown up a government facility on camera she's totally living in the open.  Why wasn't she arrested and why weren't they hiding?

Maybe so we'd see her with all those guns and shooting a helicopter out of the sky with cute baby in tow? Yeah there didn't seem to be much point to it. They could have had her just as easily working as a provincial pc trying to live the normal life Jack seemed so obsessed with her keeping and her bored out of her skull and itching to get back to Torchwood. There could have been a certain amount of irony in that.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Swansong

[indeed]

That would've been a good way to start MD, IMO. However, RTD had that image in his head of Gwen holding her baby with guns a-blazin' so logic be damned. The Torchwood on-the-run/"legend" nonsense was so unnecessary.

Hello all!

[Luckylyn]

Don't get me started on the whole stupidity of kidnapping Gwen's family when all they had to do was ask Jack to come.

Plus, Gwen handles the situation like a moron and doesn't do a single thing to ensure her family's safety.  She doesn't demand proof that they have her family and they are still alive.  She has no plan in place to protect her family in the event she gets double crossed by the kidnappers.  She just just blindly follows orders from people she has no reason to believe can be trusted and hopes that things will work out.  Plus, she acts so selfrighteous about it, too, but I guess focusing on anger towards Jack is her way of coping with betraying him.

I'm happy the twopers found a home here and that the Torchwood thread is active again.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Captanne]

I fully own the faults of Miracle Day -- wow, there were some parts that had such potential and then fell so flat (or were inexplicably dropped entirely -- like Jack being so, so cool stalking Oswald through the convention centre, with coat in full flutter, and, then, nuthin'.)  There were cavernous OOC holes and WTFs galore.

On the other hand -- Angelo's betrayal made a great tour-de-force for Barrowman and Jack.  I liked Bartender Brad and even felt sorry for him as the ONS, left snoring behind Jack's drunk-dial to She Who Will Remain Nameless.   

I would like to just forget all of the airplane episode, please.

 

On the flip side, the "world" in COE was not remotely credible.  (Who's calling Israel to tell them about the impending genocide that we're all fine with -- after all, it's just a couple of kids?  Let me know how that goes.  I'll be in the nuclear fallout shelter I have over here.  You can reach me at 1-800-BUGGER OFF.)  

Also, the government was so cliche my eyes rolled right out of my head and under the sofa.

And the junkie muppet in a box who couldn't breath the air but we just couldn't figure out a way to neutralize?  Please.  (But we can defeat Abaddon and Daleks and Sleepers and Cybermen?)  

Edited March 30, 2014 by Captanne

[Luckylyn]

Although I like it better, COE has tons of problems.  The way all the countries in the world agree is totally unrealistic.  They would have turned on each other demanding that countries with a weaker military hand over their kids.  Also, nobody puts up a fight or tries to come up with an alternate solution rather than just handing the kis over except Torchwood.  There's no way all the countires of the would would act unilaterly and not pursue a military option.   Since they made a point of showing that the 456 were adapate at viruses, it would have been better if they released a virus on earth that only they had a cure for.  Then, I would get not trying for a military option because they would need the 456 alive for the cure.  Of course, the resolution would have to have been different for how to defeat them, and there'd be no Stephen sacrifice.

Even though I didn't like MD,  Immortal Sins is one of my all time favorite episodes even though I complaing about Gwen's mishandling of the kidnapping.

[catrox14]

 

Even though I didn't like MD,  Immortal Sins is one of my all time favorite episodes even though I complaing about Gwen's mishandling of the kidnapping.

I agree. It's in my top 5 TW episodes in spite of the stupid kidnapping resolution and the weird time-travel continuity barf.  It was beautiful and let me know that you know what, Jack Harkness has put up with a lot of shit from the people that supposedly loved him in his life.  :(.  Poor Jack.

Edited March 30, 2014 by catrox14

[Swansong]

 

 

On the flip side, the "world" in COE was not remotely credible.  (Who's calling Israel to tell them about the impending genocide that we're all fine with -- after all, it's just a couple of kids?  Let me know how that goes.  I'll be in the nuclear fallout shelter I have over here.  You can reach me at 1-800-BUGGER OFF.) 

Also, the government was so cliche my eyes rolled right out of my head and under the sofa.

For me the best part of COE is the government stuff and I still find that pretty crap, but if anything all that stuff is so much worst in MD (and goes on for so much longer), but instead of government idiocy it's big businesses who hire convicted murdering pedophiles as their spokesman just because. And where things have got so bad they need to build ovens to get rid of all the surplus dying people and governments are collapsing, but Gwen, supposedly one of the world's most wanted can fly and back forth between Wales and the States and wherever with nary an inconvenience and at the drop of a hat. And blow up government property full face on camera and there isn't even any blow back for her family, let alone her. I always feel like the big guns and explosions and pointless running around are there to hide just how thin the plot ends up being. People always complain that ten episodes was too long, but I think ten episodes was a good length to work with with more thought and better writing. It's just the execution that makes it seem that way. Even Oswald, the pedophile, just felt kind of flat. I mean the guy disappears for two episodes and I honestly didn't even notice until he suddenly showed up again. And it wasn't even because the other stuff was just so compelling. He was just so pointless in the end. And The Families? lol 

Edited March 30, 2014 by Swansong

[Captanne]

I think it might even be a "taste" thing because -- personally, I'd rather have the MD construct of the (practically non-visualized) government completely flummoxed by a well-defined villain (eternal life*) with a clear threat.

As opposed to mindless, impotent cliche government twirling its mustache over a milky muppet from COE.

(*The cool thing about having eternal life being the villain is how complicated that thought is.)

[tarotx]

Hi everybody I'm pretty new to Doctor Who and Torchwood but I moving through the episodes. I just started this year and I'm about to watch the Specials at the end of season 4 of Doctor who and I just finished Torchwood : Children of Earth.

Here's a recent doctorwhotv "article" on Children of Earth  http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/torchwood-children-of-earth-in-perspective-62098.htm

As for the discussion already going on here, I believe them controlling of the kids was the same as a virus only the 456 could control. How do you think the world would respond if suddenly Aliens took over the minds of every child? People respond differently when children are involved. These Aliens demonstrated they could control the kids and gave the countries very little time to decide. The thing is, within the episode we don't know what the other countries know about the 456 or Aliens in general? We get a taste only from the lying greedy Governments in relationship to each other.

I do find it interesting in connection to what happened in the Doctor's who Year that never was-How much do the other countries know of it? I mean that all started because of a British Prime minister...

[tarotx]

I just watched Torchwood: Miracle Day episode 1. I liked it. It didn't feel part of the Doctor Who verse but so far it seems like a decent American Remake of Torchwood.

- I have no idea why Torchwood was being stalked but I'm going to assume that it wasn't the Government but something connected to the Miracle or The blessing or whatever it's called. Perhaps they wanted to eradicate all knowledge of Jack's immortality so they were trying to draw Jack out or back or something. It was a cool scene with Gwen, the baby and the guns. That's the point. This is America and action is sometimes"THE" point.

-The new cast is mixed for me. I like Rex well enough. I've seen his actor in a bunch of stuff so he's familiar so that helped me have an instant feel for the character. I feel nothing for Esther yet. She's pretty but young feeling so we'll see with her. The Doctor Girl is a bit too cold I think. We'll see. I'm not sure if she's a character or not yet. The pedophile is going to be unamusing. We just had the 456 as a bad guy into children so I don't need this again.

​-It now seems unrealistic that Earthlings don't believe in Aliens after everything that has happened even if it did happen in the UK.

- I like seeing Jack. I just like watching him come into a scene. JB's Charisma is out of this world. Jack's a bit like Angel (from BTVS&ATS) for me but without most of the angst. I know there should be more angst after everything he's lived through. He'a aging slower than normal and growing in his humanity just as slowly. We'll see how a return of mortal status (for how ever short a period of time) does anything to speed it up.

-Torchwood has always been a bit Cartoonish in the fact that the characters revert back to their character personas at the start of each episode. Growth is made but only within the episode or a few episodes.

Edited April 1, 2014 by tarotx

[Captanne]

Tarottx, I'm unclear (for I am very old) -- have you watched the first two seasons of Torchwood?  I ask because I'm always interested to see how people respond to the show based on where in the seasons they first started watching.  (I watched from the beginning of Season One through Two in pretty good order; then was horrified and dismayed by Children of Earth.  I wasn't too traumatized by Miracle Day because my faith in Torchwood, the series, had already been used, abuse, betrayed and otherwise folded, spindled and mutilated by CoE.  Other people feel very differently based on the first thing they watched.)

 

My dislike of CoE knows no bounds and flows through fathomless depths.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Captanne

[Dizzy76]

Yay, a new place!  Thank you Captanne for starting the thread.  I got a bit sad when I read that TWoP was closing.  SO glad the conversations can continue.

[radishcake]

I've edited the forum title into a declarative vs an question!

[tarotx]

I did watch all 3 seasons of TW. I'm really new to the fandom though. I forgot I didn't post what I posted at TWOP here. (I'm Soulkissage over there but tarotx most every where else on the internet so went with that here). 

Any way since the new year I've watched the first 4 seasons of the 2005 incarnation of Doctor Who. And all 3 seasons of Torchwood (and now 1 episode of Miracle Day). 

I liked Children of Earth though do feel they rushed the ending. I feel like it would have benefited from a 2 hour season finale for day 5 or some allotted time in day 1 to Jack bonding with his family. We should have seen Jack spend time with his Grandson. I think it would have made that choice a bit more powerful.The double whammy of losing Lanto and the Grand son would have seemed even more emotional. 

I have a small kinship to COE cause I feel it's a bit of a bookend to Jack's first Doctor who episodes with Children and Sacrifice. It would have made a great series finale because of that. The Empty Child and the Doctor dances I've already watched 4 or 5 times since January. I love 9 and Jack in those episode. 

Tarotx, I'm unclear (for I am very old) -- have you watched the first two seasons of Torchwood?  I ask because I'm always interested to see how people respond to the show based on where in the seasons they first started watching.  (I watched from the beginning of Season One through Two in pretty good order; then was horrified and dismayed by Children of Earth.  I wasn't too traumatized by Miracle Day because my faith in Torchwood, the series, had already been used, abuse, betrayed and otherwise folded, spindled and mutilated by CoE.  Other people feel very differently based on the first thing they watched.)

 

My dislike of CoE knows no bounds and flows through fathomless depths.

Edited April 2, 2014 by tarotx

[indeed]

Thanks, radishcake!

Ah, COE and MD--my two favorite topics. LOL

Edited April 2, 2014 by indeed

[tarotx]

Sorry >.<

I enjoyed COE and just watched 1 episode of Miracle day so for. I know they are old hat for most but I'm new to the fandom because of Netflix. I can talk more about the characters instead of the episodes that must not be named :p

Thanks, radishcake!

Ah, COE and MD--my two favorite topics. LOL

[indeed]

Hey, it's all good. I'm enjoying the read. I'm glad the discussion is so active again.

[Luckylyn]

The only good thing about TWOP closing is that it made some less active conversations lively again.  I guess you don't know what you have until it's gone.

Anyway, as far as MD characters go.  I disliked Rex but came to like Esther a great deal.  I think she had a chance for a nice progression from desk jockey to field agent because of necessity.  Jack and Gwen are so gun ho and Rex is cut from the same cloth.  Esther represented the other point of view and it was something I found interesting.  Of course,  since I liked the character and was kinda shipping her with Jack, she's gone because Torchwood means I don't get to have nice things I want.

[Captanne]

tarottxThe Empty Child and the Doctor dances I've already watched 4 or 5 times since January. I love 9 and Jack in those episode.

 

I think you've just named possibly the best two episodes in all of Whodom and I've been watching Who since Tom Baker was brand shiny and new as Four.  (I was 18.)

Luckylyn, I think Esther was wonderful and pretty much paralleled the Ianto story (from nerdy admin type to ass-kicking sidekick.  Complete with "fall from a great height into Jack's arms".  It helped that she and Jack (the actors) had chemistry, too.  I thought they were adorable.

I know there are folks who don't like analogies but I think Esther/Ianto was incredibly anvilicious.   

Edited April 2, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

I disliked Rex but came to like Esther a great deal.  I think she had a chance for a nice progression from desk jockey to field agent because of necessity.  Jack and Gwen are so gun ho and Rex is cut from the same cloth.  Esther represented the other point of view and it was something I found interesting.

It's sad that it was pretty obvious that Esther was unlikely to last long as a character pretty much from the moment they announced auditions for her. Back then she was going to be Christian, which already seemed to pretty much doom her. I'm surprised they dropped that aspect. RTD loves his religious analogies/ crisis of faith moments. She read as very Tosh-like. Shy, socially awkward, in love with the arrogant arsehole, Rex, who didn't give her the time of day and a computer geek. She also had a different surname. But, yeah, I'm not surprised she was the one to go of all the characters. Largely because she was the most likable and just because the type of  'hero/heroine she represented never fairs well in RTD's Doctor Who/Torchwood universe. 

[Captanne]

I wasn't in on the audition/casting call stuff so I didn't know she read so Tosh-y but I can see why and how.  (Female computer nerd in unrequited crush with the ActionGuy.)  On film, though, (which is the only part I know about) her character played out to me as totally Ianto-y.  (Support staff falls from great height into Jack's arms and becomes a kick-ass sidekick with chemistry.  Even to the point where a sexual relationship was hinted at -- in Scotland.  Typical MD, though, that anvil wasn't followed through with.)

Edited April 2, 2014 by Captanne

[indeed]

Support staff falls from great height into Jack's arms

When did either do this? I could be remembering wrong (especially the MD moment), but Ianto caught Jack (Fragments) and I thought both Jack and Esther fell together (The New World). Unless you're referencing other moments... Edited April 2, 2014 by indeed

[tarotx]

Esther and Jack are going to be an Item? She seems sooo young though? Soft. I know Jack is a ho but I can't picture it. But I guess Lanto was soft as well. But he's a big guy and doesn't seem child like next to JB. 

[Captanne]

Jack-on-Ianto/Jack-with-Esther from high falls that could harm either one of them.  The gimmick is the same.  Of course mileage varies and we are notorious for not agreeing on analogies here -- or at TWoP, LOL.

In MD, in a first encounter, Esther and Jack are blown up in a high rise and fall together from a great height into a fountain.  He picks her up and out of it (with a meaningful glance) and then they chat, soaking wet, IIRC, on the side of the fountain.  Similarly, on one of their first encounters and during dinosaur catching high jinks, Jack falls from ceiling level on to Ianto who is supine on the floor beneath.  They roll together so Ianto is on top -- there is a quick spark between their eyes and Ianto gets up.  Then he walks away while Jack calls after him.

Esther and Jack become friends, tarottx and there is a hint at more in a later episode which is dropped like a forgotten hiccough.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

Esther's introduction reminds me more of Gwen than Ianto particularly in her curiosity about discovering who/what Torchwood is even after they've been told it's none of their business and no-one else seems to care and that curiosity even leading to her being rescued by Jack. The scene between Esther and Jack after the fountain scene where he confides in her about Torchwood before retconning her. She's basically another variation on the wide-eyed ingenue, who is unaware of alien life until Jack clues her in ( never mind that both these characters have jobs that require the ability to be observant and are supposedly so curious and tenacious, but never noticed the parade of alien invasions that seem to occur frequently in the Doctor Who universe worldwide). Other than being relatively quiet I don't see many similarities between her and Ianto. Even job wise I don't see many similarities. His main job, when he wasn't just randomly standing around holding trays of drinks, was essentially housekeeping/office manager. The rest of her,her job, her relationship with Rex, just seems pure Tosh. Although the show seems to forget for the rest of s1 in the pilot, at least, it's Ianto Jack expects to provide support for Owen if necessary when he has to go out in the field, which does suggest, at least as far as Torchwood does training, he's already trained and has some experience as a field agent.

If we're going with an idea of the show setting up a possible attraction between Esther and Jack he and Esther are instantly friendly and flirty, but Jack's initial interactions with Ianto are suspicious and even hostile. It's only later Jack begins to warm to him. 

[Dizzy76]

I think Jack was being a little flirty with Ianto - or at least on his way.  That was until Ianto started throwing the word weevil around.  And noticing that a cut he was suppose to have is suddenly gone.  That's where Jack starts getting suspicious and hostile.  Enough so that he does a background check on Ianto.  Of course, that leads to him totally closing up because Ianto is from the very evil Torchwood One.

I wonder how they would have written Jack's reaction to Esther had she known more about what was going on.  Logically I would have expected everyone to have gotten a clue at this point since MD takes place after the Earth was stolen and the 456 had taken over the children.  But Esther isn't the first person in the Torchwood/Who verse who somehow missed all the big alien warning signs.  I still don't get that to be honest.  It just doesn't make sense that they were still writing people being clueless about aliens after all the big things that would occur right before their eyes. 

[Swansong]

The thing is they weren't even writing people on Doctor Who as being clueless about aliens and these were ordinary people. So it made Gwen and Esther seem unnecessarily clueless, considering they're supposed to be trained to be observant, which seemed to be the opposite of how we were supposed to see them.

[Captanne]

For some reason, there was (is?) this persistent disconnect between events in the Whoniverse and the ordinary people.  Then, in Torchwood, add to that consistent disconnect, there was an intentional plan to do the two miniseries for viewers who hadn't seen the series when it aired.  So, anything that happened in S1 and 2 was fair game to just ignore if the "new" viewers didn't need to know it.

For me, that is the ONLY way to explain Jack's horrid behaviour to Ianto over the corpse in CoE when the two of them were outrageously OOC.  (Ianto, like a school girl, "Oooo, they think we're a couple!  Tee hee hee!" and Jack's, "Who are you?  This isn't seventh grade." look as a response.  For some with any continuity, that scene was almost impossible to watch without weeping openly.)

[tarotx]

Esther is very child like. I know I keep saying that but the way she comes off is overly protected. Like she was in a boarding School away from everything. I know it's unrealistic but she just wasn't into Aliens or believing in that world until it was right in front of her. Gwen was that way as well.

Any way I watched Miracle Day (episode 2) Rendition. It probably should have been combined with Episode 1 and shorted at least a half hour.I liked it though. It was interesting seeing Jack here. Plus I like When Jack and Gwen have a bit of a father/daughter or brother/sister relationship instead of the, is this sparks? This was a good episode in that direction at least.

90% of what was happening with Ester could have been cut. And I'm not at all into seeing people feel sorry for the evil pedophile killer. I get the point that is how humans behave but I don't want to see it. Oh well. I liked the doctor girl in this episode though I think they could have tighten up all that hospital stuff.

It definitely feels like an American show and not a BBC original. No traces of it's Doctor Who origins imo. And some how I think I would enjoy it more fully if it was it's own start . I still liked the episode for what it is though. 

Edited April 4, 2014 by tarotx

[tarotx]

I was surfing the Torchwood Tumblr tag and came across the Torchwood panel at MegaCon 2014. It's long but a blast to watch. I fully Recommend it to all fans <3

[Dizzy76]

Seems conversation has been stalled again and although I have no idea if this will spark anything, I ran across something that I wanted to share.  Eaddy Mays (an actress that I found out is currently on Teen Wolf) ask a question about actors and shipping.  Her question:
 

 

Do the shipped actors' opinions of said ship have any bearing on the fans' opinion of the ship?

 

She had a lot more to say about the issue and her curiosity with it all here if you are interested in reading.  In response to that base question, most people seemed to agree that no, an actor's view or opinion of a ship pairing has no real bearing on what fans will or will not decided to ship.  But that question developed into another question: 

 

 

If an actor’s vision for the character whom they bring to life and/or a writer’s vision of life in the Canon Universe is not consistent with a popular trend in a fandom, should the Canon-verse be altered to accommodate the fans’ desires?  Should fans press for it to be so?

 

I read a couple of comments/answers to this second question and found one that totally mirrored where I stand on this.  Basically the answer was not necessarily because you can't please everyone but also don't rule it out.  It was a long response but I'll try and highlight my favorite points.

 

- Because every fan will have their own idea about what they should be seeing, there's no reason why the actor's vision of their character should be discredited in favor of fans.

 

- However, if thousands of people are seeing something that the creator or actor isn’t, then they should maybe take a look at why that is.

 

- If canon and fandom are to remain separate, with fans not influencing the direction the work goes in at all, then they should remain separate. So if you’re not going to ever even consider showing two characters in a romantic relationship, don’t use the idea of that relationship to promote the show. If, for example, fans think a character is bi, don’t heavily suggest it, then say “nah, that was actually nothing”. Don’t bait.

 

The writer then goes on to use the example of Harry/Draco of Harry Potter:

 

 

I was happy shipping Harry/Draco and have it not happen in the books because there was never a hint that it would ever happen, and it wasn’t mentioned at all in publicity.

 

I was of the same mind with Harry/Draco by the way.  I loved shipping them because I had people point out to me why if could be a great read but also because I knew that canon would never touch it.  They were never going to happen so I didn't expect to see anything in canon.  Also, there was no way for JK Rowling to screw it up or damage it in any way.  I had issues with how she handled the development of Draco but as far as the ship itself, the fans ultimately had full reign over where the ship could or couldn't go.  Now Harry/Ginny on the other hand, I have lots to say about that because what she saw did not translate very well (imo) for a lot of fans.

 

All that to say that this discussion made me think of Torchwood and some of the conversations we've had about it.  Made me think about the disconnect between what the writers saw and what a lot of the fans saw.  About how the actors seemed to be somewhere in the middle doing their own thing but still trying to tow the party line.  Specifically, this discussion made me wish that those in charge of Torchwood and the characters had seen fit to ask some of these questions and really take stock in the answers.

 

 

Any thoughts?  Comments?  Discuss...

[Captanne]

For me, it does matter what the actors think.  They are bringing characters to life -- it is their job to make creative decisions about their characters and to portray them based on their judgment.  (They can be shut down by the director/producer/writer, certainly, but that doesn't make the actor's opinion about characterization any less important or valid.)

 

I agree with you that TPTB should pay attention to a huge fandom tidal wave of opinion -- there is always the possibility that the creative team have really missed something.  However, in my opinion, in the main -- fan opinion should stay squarely in fandom and paid little attention to.

 

I return to my belief that it is the job of the creative team to create and present the story.  It is NOT the job of the audience.

 

I do not work in theatre for a living and there is a reason why:  I would suck like a Hoover at it.  Most people do.

 

When going in for surgery or having a house built, I don't want to give the doctor advice or tell the architect about weight bearing capacity or moment arms.  Not my job.

[ElleryAnne]

Aw, I love Eaddy.  I wish she was still on Teen Wolf.

 

I connect a lot of what she said to the Teen Wolf fandom.  A few months ago, one of the actors made an off-the-cuff remark concerning fans of an extremely popular 'ship over there, and it caused a kick-up for a while.  The actor isn't one from the 'ship in question, and really wasn't even the one the question had been directed at, and I can excuse it as just one of those moments that gets away from a person, but it still left me feeling sour about the show for a few episodes because I do ship the pairing in question.  The backpedaling over a character's possible bisexuality is more annoying and still aggravates me, as is that show creator's past history of teasing that the 'ship could become canon.  I'd rather they ignore us than tease us about something they have no intention of doing.

 

With Torchwood, I never had a chance to watch the show until Jack/Ianto was relatively established.  I've since heard that Ianto wasn't meant to be a long-term character, let alone a significant love interest for Jack, but that the writers/creators learned of Ianto's and the pairing's popularity and decided to go with it.   I'm glad they did, given the chemistry between the actors (and the lack of chemistry between Jack/Gwen IMO) and the way the characters on that show were written.

 

should the Canon-verse be altered to accommodate the fans’ desires?  Should fans press for it to be so?

 

 

Short answer to the first question - it depends.  Short answer to the second - no.  It's safer to keep fandom and canon separate, because if they attempt to alter canon and get it wrong, nobody's going to be happy.  The only thing worse than an unpopular canon pairing would be an unpopular fandom-imposed pairing.

 

In general, I don't think the writers/creators/actors should blindly follow the fans concerning a ship, but I do agree they should look into WHY the pairing is popular. (As Eaddy pointed out, there are actually some very well-written metas on the merits of various 'ships.)  And then, if they feel so inclined and persuaded (and in the case of a slash pairing, the actors aren't too uptight to do justice to it), then I'm good with them absorbing the 'ship into canon, should the showrunner decide to do so.  

 

My fear is if they do it without an understanding of why the pairing is popular, because therein lies catastrophe.  (I feel the same way about whether they should get rid of unpopular characters too early.  I've seen cases where a show killed off a character because he was unpopular, and then when the show goes into reruns the same fans start commenting on how much they wish that character was still around. Fans can be fickle.)  

 

Sorry for rambling.  I guess what I'm saying is that I think it would be great if a show (writers/actors/what-have-you) takes the time to understand what's going on when a large segment of their audience sees something different than they think they're showing us, and if they work with that.  But I don't want them to alter canon to accommodate fandom just for the hell of it or for ratings.

 

Frankly, I'd be happy if they would just listen more when their entire fandom is against a pairing that they try to force down our throats.  (That's another reason I'm glad Torchwood went with Jack/Ianto instead of Jack/Gwen.)

Edited April 25, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[Captanne]

OMG, Jack/Gwen.  shudder

 

For the love of God, no.