Jennifer Jareau: Pennsylvania Petite

[Old Dog]

We move forward it is true but the past informs the future. Can we ever forget (the awful) 200 and the way Messer tried to change JJ to something she could never credibly be? Even though they have obviously seen the backlash and attempted to redeem the character, is it not too late and Messer still intends that JJ be a Sydney Bristow copy and dominate the show - as we have seen by her heading up the screentime? And I am not sure Messer doesn't pay attention to viewer's opinions - the trouble being that she appears to pay attention only to the suck ups and crazy fans on FB. You only have to force yourself to look at what CM posts on FB to see where the focus is - and it is not the hard core, longterm fans who debate here and on the other sites that go into more depth. I think they were forced into making a token gesture as regards JJ in response to a backlash that appears to have surprised them but I doubt it is more than a token gesture and I expect the JJ juggernaut will continue to roll on.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Old Dog

[Cobalt Stargazer]

To me, the real failure was in the poor attempt at backstory that was too preposterous to ring true, let alone offer adequate explanation about the changes in the character.  But both the character changes and (the awful) '200' are behind us, and can't be undone.  We can only ask them to move on from there.  I do think they tried a bit this year, by bringing back a bit of her earlier persona, focusing more on her communications skills and a little less on her physical skills.  Of course, there was also that flawed communication with the woman in "The Itch", where JJ struggled with her lack of understanding.  She just didn't struggle enough.

 

A point of order,  because The Big Game just ended on ION, and now Revelations is starting.

 

While Revelations is kind of more about Reid than anyone else, since we get the flashbacks to his childhood, Sperm Donor abandoning him and Diana being ill, its very much worth noting that The Big Game ends with JJ having just realized that she's practically standing in what's left of Tobias Hankel's last victim, and then having to shoot the dogs that killed the woman before they can attack her. And she's still feeling the effects of that through most of the next episode. She tries hard to stay on point, but she blames herself for Reid being taken, and she even pulls a gun on Prentiss because she's still so shaky. Hell, she even asks Emily how she can be so matter-of-fact about the whole thing, that she'd hardly flinched once.

 

That's struggle, and that was the JJ I almost liked. So at one point, the writers were capable of giving her obstacles that she had to either get over or get past. The JJ of today, at least if The Forever People was anything to go by, would probably just say, "No!" and then leave the room, as if that's even remotely combating her demons. Because Erica thinks she's indestructible or something.

[Saje]

I think Erica wants (and again, just speculation on my part) to show JJ as super because she's able to overcome the disastrous crap that's happened to her, not because she's teflon and everything just bounces off. 

 

I agree with most of you that 200 and The Forever People were abysmal, but that wasn't JJ's fault. 

 

JustMyOpinion, you're my hero with all your reasoned counterpoints. I find myself nodding in agreement with you 90% of the time!

[JMO]

 

The JJ of today, at least if The Forever People was anything to go by, would probably just say, "No!" and then leave the room, as if that's even remotely combating her demons. Because Erica thinks she's indestructible or something.

Actually, and because we have to read between the lines (which, I agree, is a failing), she 'just said no', and then apparently had some sort of exchange with her unit chief, which resulted in her having to sit out part of the action in 'Nelson's Sparrow'.  Once it was on the table, I doubt that Hotch would have just agreed to wait it out, so I'm picturing her in counseling during that period. 

[ForeverAlone]

The problem is, there really is no indication Hotch ever talked to JJ about her behavior. I mean, the very next episode was "Anonymous" and JJ was off doing what JJ always does, with no emotional after effects, and she was off doing what she always does in the rest of the episodes after "Nelson's Sparrow". There is nothing on screen that would show that Hotch ever talked to JJ about her behavior, because what he says to her in "Nelson's Sparrow" (at least to me) comes across like she needs to stay behind for Penelope's sake, and not because of any sort of talk they had. If the writers really wanted to show that Hotch saw what was going on with JJ and intervened to help her, the entire last scene of "The Forever People" could have been that conversation, rather than the (at times) overwrought fantasy conversation JJ had with herself where she seems to shut down all her trauma by saying "No" and then walking out of the room. But to skip an entire episode, not address it at all- not even a hint of it, and have the audience assume they had some conversation based on a 10 second exchange between Hotch and JJ seems a bit of a leap on the writers' part. We should not have to dig THAT deep to find some subtext, and this show is not exactly about depth and subtext, at least not anymore. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by ForeverAlone

[JMO]

 

There is nothing on screen that would show that Hotch ever talked to JJ about her behavior, because what he says to her in "Nelson's Sparrow" (at least to me) comes across like she needs to stay behind for Penelope's sake, and not because of any sort of talk they had.

 

Not really.  He didn't say 'somebody has to stay behind', it was specific to JJ.  

 

This is a working weekend for me, so I'm on the computer all day, looking for reasons not to get anything done.  Thanks for all the distraction!

[ForeverAlone]

Yeah, but with NOTHING else to support it, I think it is a bit of a leap to assume that Hotch and JJ had some offline communication about her behavior. I  mean, he showed zero concern for her during "The Forever People", and he noticed Reid's distraction more than JJ's meltdown. Reid never talked to Hotch about his concern for JJ (which is something I absolutely disagree with, and would think he would have learned that lesson from his regret about Elle). There was absolutely nothing amiss about JJ in "Anonymous", and nothing amiss about JJ in all subsequent episodes. If the writers really wanted to go there (and they should have, because it would have been more realistic), they had plenty of opportunity to do so, even in a brief scene at the end of "The Forever People" or during "Anonymous", but they did not do that. Hotch has talked to various team members over the years about their distress (hell, he did it with JJ in "Amplification" and "Birthright"), so it would not have been out of character for him to do so. And if the writers wanted to go there, why wouldn't they want to show a scene like that, because it would have humanized JJ, made her seem less like a superhero, and showed that she was getting some help for her issues, and Hotch was making sure she was. But  none of that happened. So, for me anyway, I am not going to do the writers' work for them, and give them credit for something that was not depicted on the screen. I assumed Hotch left JJ with Penelope, is because they are good friends, and he didn't want her to be alone in the cabin where Gideon was murdered. I always took his directive that he wanted JJ to provide some sort of emotional support to Penelope. 

[MCatry]

The point I'm trying to make is that this situation is one Erica created.

I don't blame Cook, I blame Messer, and if the network had intervened when (IMO) they should have, this conversation wouldn't even be happening because we'd have a showrunner who could find their butt without using a flashlight and a map.

I think Messer still doesn't acknowledge she's missing her butt. Hence, she's not even looking for it. Edited June 13, 2015 by MCatry

[MCatry]

 

But I stand in the (apparent) minority in believing that JJ has been written full of flaws for the past few years.  But they've gone largely unexplored, and the one attempt at explanation, ( the awful) '200', fell completely flat.  Its failure leaves us still waiting for an adequate explanation as to the changes in her character.  Absent that explanation, I suppose I can see why people find her annoying.

To me, the real failure was in the poor attempt at backstory that was too preposterous to ring true, let alone offer adequate explanation about the changes in the character.  But both the character changes and (the awful) '200' are behind us, and can't be undone.  We can only ask them to move on from there.

I am definitely not waiting for any explanation for the character transplant. I am truly not interested at all.

But I agree with you about this: there's no way back.

Still, these very same writers didn't mind butchering long established canon facts for every character, so I don't think we cannot expect they could do that again.

[MCatry]

Yeah, but with NOTHING else to support it, I think it is a bit of a leap to assume that Hotch and JJ had some offline communication about her behavior.

I  mean, he showed zero concern for her during "The Forever People", and he noticed Reid's distraction more than JJ's meltdown. Reid never talked to Hotch about his concern for JJ (which is something I absolutely disagree with, and would think he would have learned that lesson from his regret about Elle).

There was absolutely nothing amiss about JJ in "Anonymous", and nothing amiss about JJ in all subsequent episodes.

Hotch has talked to various team members over the years about their distress (hell, he did it with JJ in "Amplification" and "Birthright"), so it would not have been out of character for him to do so.

And if the writers wanted to go there, why wouldn't they want to show a scene like that, because it would have humanized JJ, made her seem less like a superhero, and showed that she was getting some help for her issues, and Hotch was making sure she was.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

And yes.

[missmycat]

It would have looked even stranger if you'd typed it all out, CoStar! 

You mean like this. In my opinion, JustMYOpinion. LOL. I guess it does look rather strange. JMO if I wasn't aware of your username,I'd probably think that CoStar was just trying to reemphasize the fact that this was just her opinion.

Edited June 13, 2015 by missmycat

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I think Messer still doesn't acknowledge she's missing her butt.

 

This is an amazing sentence.

[Danielg342]

JustMyOpinion, not that I disagree that there haven't been opportunities for JJ to be presented as a flawed individual, but I do disagree that she has actually been presented as “flawed”. It's like “Beyond Borders”- yeah, the “flaws” may be there if you look hard enough, but is it really a “flaw” if it doesn't affect the character in a negative way?

Not once has JJ ever done something “because it's in her nature” and she gets burned for it. Yeah, I guess you could say her shooting the UnSub in “The Forever People” was her being reckless, but does that matter when she got out of there with barely a scratch? What good is pointing out that someone did something wrong if that “wrong thing” didn't matter? Sure, the character could act like it was wrong, but I'm not fooled- in my mind, I see nothing but a character whose struggles are superficial, because, ultimately, the character never actually faces a challenge. Not only can I not relate to that, it's just dull and boring.

At the end of the day, flaws have to have a payoff- or else, how am I supposed to believe that the character will actually face challenges somewhere down the line? Much like CM's propensity for not killing kids, if JJ's “flaws” are presented as if they're nothing, what good does that do? Since CM doesn't kill kids (except once), I roll my eyes at an episode with a kid in it- since I already know how it will end. Same thing with JJ- how can I ever believe she's in “peril” if I have never seen her faced with an actual struggle?

[JMO]

 

Not once has JJ ever done something “because it's in her nature” and she gets burned for it. Yeah, I guess you could say her shooting the UnSub in “The Forever People” was her being reckless, but does that matter when she got out of there with barely a scratch? What good is pointing out that someone did something wrong if that “wrong thing” didn't matter?

 Can't agree with you on this point, Danielg.  By this line of thought, it's fine not to wear a seatbelt in your car until the day you die from being thrown through the windshield.  If there's no cost to it before that day, is it the wrong thing to do? Was it right, and then wrong?

 

I can agree that, from a dramatic perspective, a flaw  needs to have a 'payoff', that it should, eventually, lead to a crisis point.  Maybe it's just a matter of me being more comfortable with a prolonged timeline on it.  After all, a behavior with an immediately negative consequence doesn't tend to become established behavior.  You did something dumb, it went wrong, you don't do it again.  Not much drama in that, either.  So, given that they went with the changes in the character, I'm willing to let the flaws become well-established before they have their consequence.  And I hope we'll end up with a writing team that is up to the task.

[MCatry]

All I know is that I am fed up of so much J on my screen, so at least I am hoping the first episodes of season XI will be watchable.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I can agree that, from a dramatic perspective, a flaw  needs to have a 'payoff', that it should, eventually, lead to a crisis point.  Maybe it's just a matter of me being more comfortable with a prolonged timeline on it.

 

Re this, because it actually is related - if you squint a little, JJ has turned into Early!Dean Winchester.. In the first seasons of Supernatural, before everything got bogged down in angels and demons and 24/7 angst, Dean's major flaw was that he just didn't realize how awesome he was. He was just so manly and tough and brave and loyal that he was practically a saint, and if you didn't follow his rules/orders, then you were just wrong and stupid and wrong (hi, Sam!).

 

A solution to this for JJ would have been for Proof to be written differently, so that Aaron and Emily didn't intervene. Even if it wasn't specifically to get Reid to stop being angry at her for lying to him, it had the effect (for me) of saying that Spencer was being unreasonable for feeling betrayed, and that since he actually didn't start taking Dilaudid again then what harm was there in the fact that JJ violated his trust, which it was well-established that he had long-standing issues with, not just because of his father but because of Alexa Lisbon. And to probably have her not play online poker with a woman who's supposed to be dead, which makes it ridiculous for her not to tell Reid that Emily is alive in the first damn place.

[missmycat]

Daniel, I agree with you 100%

Here is a woman who had kept the fact that she had miscarried the child her and her husband were trying to have from him with seemingly out any fallout to her marriage.I would probably have been better able to understand why she did it, were there any sort of indication that JJ had felt guilty for the part her actions played in bringing about the miscarriage,but sadly Messer and the writers chose not to go that route.Because we were just suppose to except the fact that JJ had absolutely no choice but to put herself and the unborn child in the position that subsequently caused the loss of said child, no matter how implausible some of us may have felt that whole scenario had been in the first place. Now it is not as if I wanted a whole damn episode devoted to it, but maybe a sentence or 2 from JJ indicting there had been some kind of rift between her and Will over the fact that she had chosen to keep something like this from him, but that they were trying to work it out.

[ForeverAlone]

It depends on the person who doesn't like JJ. For me, the only thing that would make her tolerable is to lessen her screentime significantly (while simultaneously increasing Reid's screentime). I don't like her personality, and have always felt she was the most expendable character on the team, but I didn't have a serious problem with her until season 9, when she started dominating the screen to an excessive degree.

 

It is no different than the plethora of Reid haters in the early seasons. They didn't particularly like him, but they hated that he got so much screentime, and they just wanted him to fade into the background. 

[missmycat]

It is no different than the plethora of Reid haters in the early seasons. They didn't particularly like him, but they hated that he got so much screentime, and they just wanted him to fade into the background. 

Except that Reid wasn't given that screen time at the expense of the other main characters.Which to me meant the profilers. And since JJ wasn't one back then I saw her more or less as a secondary character, and the same goes for Garcia. I understand that AJ/JJ would've been expected to get more screen time when she transitioned from the role of media liaison to that of a profiler. The big problem for me was/is that Erica Messer and these writers chose to give it to her at the expense of some of the other long time characters, most notably Reid, instead of the unsub like was done in CM's earlier seasons.

[Saje]

*looks around*

 

Could've sworn...

[Danielg342]

Can't agree with you on this point, Danielg. By this line of thought, it's fine not to wear a seatbelt in your car until the day you die from being thrown through the windshield. If there's no cost to it before that day, is it the wrong thing to do? Was it right, and then wrong?

I can agree that, from a dramatic perspective, a flaw needs to have a 'payoff', that it should, eventually, lead to a crisis point. Maybe it's just a matter of me being more comfortable with a prolonged timeline on it. After all, a behavior with an immediately negative consequence doesn't tend to become established behavior. You did something dumb, it went wrong, you don't do it again. Not much drama in that, either. So, given that they went with the changes in the character, I'm willing to let the flaws become well-established before they have their consequence. And I hope we'll end up with a writing team that is up to the task.

First of all, I would say reality doesn't function like fiction does. In reality, there are things you can perceive and deduce- like jumping off a cliff- that will always have an inevitable consequence. In fiction, if the writer chooses to ignore that logic, they can do so. So it's more important for the writer to establish what are the threats and what aren't, because the audience doesn't always know what they are when they start taking in the work.

Secondly, when it comes to a “real” threat like not wearing a seatbelt, there are a few things to consider:

1) There are many people who don't wear seatbelts out of the logic that “I'm a good driver, nothing will happen to me.”

2) There is a huge body of research and just enough anecdotal evidence for me to know that the risks of not wearing a seatbelt are dangerous enough that it's wiser for me to wear a seatbelt, since I'm human like the other unfortunate people who were hurt by not wearing a seatbelt and I don't wish to end up like those unfortunate souls.

3) Hypothetically, if studies/anecdotes showed the opposite and showed that seatbelts are more of a harm than a help, yet the Health Department continued to promote them, would you wear a seatbelt? Some might still do that, but I'm not sure I would, in the absence of proof.

I agree, when you're introducing a character you don't need to show their “flaw” right away- you can wait for a payoff. However, JJ has been with the show almost as long as Reid, Hotch and Morgan, and has been the “newer version” for four whole seasons now. When is there going to be a payoff? When will all of her supposed “flaws” start having an impact? I think it's beyond time that the impact occurs, because it's ridiculous that a character goes through four years of struggle with nothing happening.

I have patience, but only so much. Maybe your patience level is higher than mine, but I think I'm at the point where Tivon Askari telling her “what you did was wrong” actually turns into what she did winds up being wrong.

[normasm]

I agree, when you're introducing a character you don't need to show their “flaw” right away- you can wait for a payoff. However, JJ has been with the show almost as long as Reid, Hotch and Morgan, and has been the “newer version” for four whole seasons now. When is there going to be a payoff? When will all of her supposed “flaws” start having an impact? I think it's beyond time that the impact occurs, because it's ridiculous that a character goes through four years of struggle with nothing happening.

I have patience, but only so much. Maybe your patience level is higher than mine, but I think I'm at the point where Tivon Askari telling her “what you did was wrong” actually turns into what she did winds up being wrong.

I was trying to hold out hope, before Forever People was broadcast, that this would happen, that JJ's recklessness would spell trouble for Reid, and that she would realize her need for help when Reid got hurt or almost got hurt, but, no, it was just JJ forging ahead, Supergirl sharpening her cape and diving down to save the day.

 

I suspect, even if you are a fan of JJ, this lack of consequence for her supposed suffering, this post-dated PTS, falls flat. It doesn't serve to show her as courageous, because she's just damn lucky she didn't get someone killed (other than the unsub), say, the innocent victim in the freezer.

 

When Gideon, for instance, would make a seemingly rash decision, take a gamble, and the result would be to put Reid in extra danger, or get Elle shot, you would see him second guessing, wringing his hands, rationalizing what he had done, realizing that he may have made a mistake because he's not on an even keel. With JJ, all that happened to her after her stupid decision to take down the unsub by herself and - by the grace of whatever - coming out unscathed, all she got from it was a scowl from Morgan.

[MCatry]

 

When Gideon, for instance, would make a seemingly rash decision, take a gamble, and the result would be to put Reid in extra danger, or get Elle shot, you would see him second guessing, wringing his hands, rationalizing what he had done, realizing that he may have made a mistake because he's not on an even keel. With JJ, all that happened to her after her stupid decision to take down the unsub by herself and - by the grace of whatever - coming out unscathed, all she got from it was a scowl from Morgan.

True.

Not just Gideon, but Hotch, Prentiss, Reid, Elle, Garcia,... Even Anderson. When they did a rush (reckless, stupid) decision, they had the nerve to feel nervous, ashamed, having second guests. JJ-the -communications-liason also went down that route.

JJ the profiler jus either ignore the rest of the world, or blame terrorists.

[JMO]

 

Secondly, when it comes to a “real” threat like not wearing a seatbelt, there are a few things to consider:

1) There are many people who don't wear seatbelts out of the logic that “I'm a good driver, nothing will happen to me.”

2) There is a huge body of research and just enough anecdotal evidence for me to know that the risks of not wearing a seatbelt are dangerous enough that it's wiser for me to wear a seatbelt, since I'm human like the other unfortunate people who were hurt by not wearing a seatbelt and I don't wish to end up like those unfortunate souls.

3) Hypothetically, if studies/anecdotes showed the opposite and showed that seatbelts are more of a harm than a help, yet the Health Department continued to promote them, would you wear a seatbelt? Some might still do that, but I'm not sure I would, in the absence of proof.

I think you missed the whole point on the seatbelt analogy, Danielg.  I'll own it, maybe I didn't communicate it well enough.  Basically, it's an Ericksonian thing, externally applied.  I know, no clearer.  It's this:  Erickson described stages of development.  In one of the earliest stages, 'right-or-wrong' is determined only by consequence.  If there's no consequence, there's no 'wrong', and no guilt.  It's only later that an individual develops an inherent sense of right or wrong, or a sense of morality. 

 

I was applying that analogy to your sentiment that JJ didn't have flaws because you haven't seen any consequences to them.  I think, in the interim, we might have actually agreed that they exist, but have not yet taken their toll.  I disagree with those who think they've been totally without cost to her.

 

And, BTW, in my line of work, I have met a boatload of people who have not taken well-documented safety measures, including the wearing of seatbelts, simply because "we've never had an accident before".  That discussion is often held in the emergency room.

[BookWoman56]

For me, JJ has come perilously close to the category of “ruined character,” a character that was originally ok but through a combination of bad writing, unbelievable story arcs, and sometimes bad acting, morphs into someone who generally evokes a response of eye-rolling. The situation with her reminds me of what happened to the character of Lisa Cuddy on House. Lisa Edelstein, who played Cuddy, wasn’t happy with the amount of screentime that she was getting. She was apparently BFFs with one of the show’s writers or producers. And so Cuddy went from being a hospital administrator mostly in the background to a front and center character who was in the audience’s face all the time, and who suddenly could do things much better than she used to, up to and including being the one person in the entire damn hospital who could locate a missing infant. Also, at Edelstein’s suggestion, the character became House’s one true love, even though that change necessitated retconning canon to a ridiculous point. A certain level of backlash ensued, ratings declined, and IIRC, the showrunner or head writer or someone at a similar level got demoted or fired. Prior to the last season of the show, Edelstein couldn’t reach a contract agreement with the show, and so was gone from the final season.  Result: a much stronger season that focused on the main character and his relationships/issues rather than a secondary character who had been shoved down the audience’s throat one too many times.

 

In the case of JJ, my willing suspension of disbelief just disappears. I can’t get past the fact that this is a character who started out as a media liaison who flatly stated she did not want to be a profiler. This was someone who was traumatized by the admittedly horrific scene in an early season episode where she has to shoot several dogs who look as if they are about to attack her the same way they did one of the victims; her trauma was so bad she nearly shot Prentiss accidentally, and she spent much of that story arc being shaky and almost nonfunctional. So the idea of her going away for a few months or whatever and then suddenly being this fearless, fierce profiler who can engage in physical fights/shootouts with unsubs with no sign of angst at all, and who seems often to be a better profiler than her colleagues who have been doing this for much longer: it just doesn’t work for me. The travesty of 200 just cemented the fact that her character arc was done terribly. If TPTB want me to believe in JJ’s transformation, they need to show, not tell, the steps involved in that change rather than just have it all conveniently happen off screen.

 

I have nothing against AJ Cook, and certainly she was entitled to ask for more screentime, more interesting storylines, higher pay, or whatever. But the result of the writers/producers/showrunners agreeing to some of those requests has not been good. Maybe in the hands of better writers, it would have worked better. As is, for me to regard JJ favorably again, she would have to have her screentime reduced so that other characters have a more equal distribution of screentime. She would need to occasionally display the same kind of doubts about her profiling decisions that other characters have done. She would need to occasionally be wrong, just like everybody else on the team has been. In addition, she would have to rely less on shooting and fistfights with unsubs and more on actually profiling them. That issue is not unique to JJ; I have problems with Morgan for the same reason. In a show that is supposed to be about profiling, the characters spend damn little time profiling and more time getting answers from Garcia’s magic computer, then rushing to the unsub’s location and ending everything with a gunshot or knockout punch. I miss the days when the profilers used their knowledge and skills to figure out why the unsub was doing the things he was, predicting where he would strike next, and leveraging their understanding of the unsub’s psyche to disarm or subdue him. What has happened to JJ’s character typifies, to me, what has gone wrong with the show as a whole. It’s transformed from being a believable and occasionally flawed analysis of the psychology of serial killers to an action-oriented, often unbelievable run-of-the-mill procedural.

Edited June 14, 2015 by BookWoman56

[Old Dog]

For me, JJ has come perilously close to the category of “ruined character,” a character that was originally ok but through a combination of bad writing, unbelievable story arcs, and sometimes bad acting, morphs into someone who generally evokes a response of eye-rolling. The situation with her reminds me of what happened to the character of Lisa Cuddy on House. Lisa, Edelstein, who played Cuddy, wasn’t happy with the amount of screentime that she was getting. She was apparently BFFs with one of the show’s writers or producers. And so Cuddy went from being a hospital administrator mostly in the background to a front and center character who was in the audience’s face all the time, and who suddenly could do things much better than she used to, up to and including being the one person in the entire damn hospital who could locate a missing infant. Also, at Edelstein’s suggestion, the character became House’s one true love, even though that change necessitated retconning canon to a ridiculous point. A certain level of backlash ensued, ratings declined, and IIRC, the showrunner or head writer or someone at a similar level got demoted or fired. Prior to the last season of the show, Edelstein couldn’t reach a contract agreement with the show, and so was gone from the final season.  Result: a much stronger season that focused on the main character and his relationships/issues rather than a secondary character who had been shoved down the audience’s throat one too many times.

 

In the case of JJ, my willing suspension of disbelief just disappears. I can’t get past the fact that this is a character who started out as a media liaison who flatly stated she did not want to be a profiler. This was someone who was traumatized by the admittedly horrific scene in an early season episode where she has to shoot several dogs who look as if they are about to attack her the same way they did one of the victims; her trauma was so bad she nearly shot Prentiss accidentally, and she spent much of that story arc being shaky and almost nonfunctional. So the idea of her going away for a few months or whatever and then suddenly being this fearless, fierce profiler who can engage in physical fights/shootouts with unsubs with no sign of angst at all, and who seems often to be a better profiler than her colleagues who have been doing this for much longer: it just doesn’t work for me. The travesty of 200 just cemented the fact that her character arc was done terribly. If TPTB want me to believe in JJ’s transformation, they need to show, not tell, the steps involved in that change rather than just have it all conveniently happen off screen.

 

I have nothing against AJ Cook, and certainly she was entitled to ask for more screentime, more interesting storylines, higher pay, or whatever. But the result of the writers/producers/showrunners agreeing to some of those requests has not been good. Maybe in the hands of better writers, it would have worked better. As is, for me to regard JJ favorably again, she would have to have her screentime reduced so that other characters have a more equal distribution of screentime. She would need to occasionally display the same kind of doubts about her profiling decisions that other characters have done. She would need to occasionally be wrong, just like everybody else on the team has been. In addition, she would have to rely less on shooting and fistfights with unsubs and more on actually profiling them. That issue is not unique to JJ; I have problems with Morgan for the same reason. In a show that is supposed to be about profiling, the characters spend damn little time profiling and more time getting answers from Garcia’s magic computer, then rushing to the unsub’s location and ending everything with a gunshot or knockout punch. I miss the days when the profilers used their knowledge and skills to figure out why the unsub was doing the things he was, predicting where he would strike next, and leveraging their understanding of the unsub’s psyche to disarm or subdue him. What has happened to JJ’s character typifies, to me, what has gone wrong with the show as a whole. It’s transformed from being a believable and occasionally flawed analysis of the psychology of serial killers to an action-oriented, often unbelievable  run-of=the=mill procedural.

Yes!Yes!Yes! You have got it spot on!

Edited June 14, 2015 by Old Dog

[Danielg342]

Perhaps I wasn't clear myself. My stance is this:

-In reality, the “rules” are almost always consistent. If I choose not to wear my seatbelt, and I crash my car into a wall at 100mph, I'll hurtle myself through the window and get killed after being struck by the wall. That's something I'm pretty sure will happen 99.9% of the time, so I wear my seatbelt (and not speed, obviously).

-In fiction, the writer can ignore all that. The writer can choose to have the character drive her car at 100mph into a wall and, through some weird contortion because of the impact and the fact she put her arm in front of her, she winds up rolling down onto the ground with nothing but a gash on her arm; with her feeling no guilt and no one reprimanding her for her stupidity. Thus, in this world, even though it may be presented as “realistic”, we have a situation where the character did something reckless but we saw no visible consequences as a result.

That's how I feel with “The Forever People”. JJ had the equivalent mentally of being hurtled at a wall at 100mph after crashing her car, but she escaped with barely a scratch. To me, they turned a realistic injury into having extremely unrealistic consequences- you can't just “turn” PTSD off with a simple “no”- and that unsettled me. It felt to me almost the equivalent of JJ snapping her fingers and healing herself with magic, which I feel is an insult to anyone who's ever suffered real PTSD.

[JMO]

 

That's how I feel with “The Forever People”. JJ had the equivalent mentally of being hurtled at a wall at 100mph after crashing her car, but she escaped with barely a scratch. To me, they turned a realistic injury into having extremely unrealistic consequences- you can't just “turn” PTSD off with a simple “no”- and that unsettled me. It felt to me almost the equivalent of JJ snapping her fingers and healing herself with magic, which I feel is an insult to anyone who's ever suffered real PTSD.

 

Maybe the real bottom line is that we watched the same show and saw two completely different things.  The description above doesn't fit what I saw at all.  As to the manifestations of PTSD and/or whether it was portrayed in a realistic way---don't know.  I'm blessed not to suffer it, but have encountered quite a few who carry the diagnosis.  The best I have been able to conclude is that it will manifest itself when, and how, it chooses.  It's been different in every person. No 'rules' about it at all.

[Danielg342]

Mileage will vary, on this. I'm just curious, JustMyOpinion, do you believe from a dramatic perspective that JJ's flaws have been adequately addressed? I get the impression you think the show hasn't taken too long with the payoff to her struggles, while I believe they have. Where I might agree is that if the show eventually delivers on the payoff I'll be happy, since it's “better late than never”.

I think for me what it boils down to is that I won't mind if JJ is in the spotlight- provided she actually gets a good storyline first.

[JMO]

 

Mileage will vary, on this. I'm just curious, JustMyOpinion, do you believe from a dramatic perspective that JJ's flaws have been adequately addressed? I get the impression you think the show hasn't taken too long with the payoff to her struggles, while I believe they have. Where I might agree is that if the show eventually delivers on the payoff I'll be happy, since it's “better late than never”.

I think for me what it boils down to is that I won't mind if JJ is in the spotlight- provided she actually gets a good storyline first.

Yay, we agree!  No, I don't believe her issues have been adequately addressed.  Now that they have a full season ahead of them, I can only hope they will decide to do so.  I'm not blind to what's gone before, and the few successes they've had in recent years.  I'm just not willing to 'call the game' before it is played.

 

And now, if you will forgive me, I need to walk away from the computer.  I've been in front of it nearly every waking moment for a day and a half, but I have finally completed my task.  Anybody out there do massage?

[normasm]

Here is a virtual neck rub (rub-rub)

[missmycat]

I think for me what it boils down to is that I won't mind if JJ is in the spotlight- provided she actually gets a good storyline first.

Daniel to be honest, unless we get a bit of a break from this character being in our faces so much,I am not at all sure if I'd be able to appreciate a JJ story line even if it is a good one.Of course now I might feel different if we'd be allowed to see her not be so damn perfect. Such as not appearing to be smarter than all her team mates,including Reid the genius.Even perhaps seeing her doubting herself unsure of what she should do.And if she makes a wrong choice or engages in more reckless behavior, let there be some actual consequences.And be all means let there be some sort of acknowledgement of the fact that JJ totally effed up.

[MCatry]

Yay, we agree!  No, I don't believe her issues have been adequately addressed.  Now that they have a full season ahead of them, I can only hope they will decide to do so. 

And I will be hoping they will stop wasting time with even more JJ stories.

But given the fact that the showrunner and her writers/friends are still around, I think I will be disappointed.

[ForeverAlone]

As long as Reid basically remains a marginalized character while JJ remains dominant, I don't care how good or realistic her storyline might be. All I care about is getting more Reid and better Reid. The hope of seeing some good Reid is what is holding me as a viewer of Criminal Minds. 

[Droogie]

Daniel to be honest, unless we get a bit of a break from this character being in our faces so much,I am not at all sure if I'd be able to appreciate a JJ story line even if it is a good one.Of course now I might feel different if we'd be allowed to see her not be so damn perfect. Such as not appearing to be smarter than all her team mates,including Reid the genius.Even perhaps seeing her doubting herself unsure of what she should do.And if she makes a wrong choice or engages in more reckless behavior, let there be some actual consequences.And be all means let there be some sort of acknowledgement of the fact that JJ totally effed up.

This is how I feel as well. As a Reid fan, I am totally biased, but what I'd like to see (if I simply must sit through another JJ storyline) is JJ seeking Reid's tutelage with regard to profiling, etc. I'd like to see her actually defer to his greater experience and expertise. I would warm to that JJ and not begrudge her the screen time. We already know she feels competent with Morgan (their running scenes, and kicking down doors together), but I haven't ever seen JJ show respect to Reid, at least, not since she made him Henry's godfather. She knocked his profiling skills in Proof -- has she ever come out and said she respects him? I think this is something that should happen, since she has shown him a lot of disrespect for quite awhile.

In my own profession, I love to "sit at the feet" of those more experienced and knowledgeable than I am, and ask them questions and see how they do things. Surely JJ stands to learn something.

I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. I'm still angrier than I can say about the disparity in screen time and the ridiculous DVD cover.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Droogie

[Bookish Jen]

This past Wednesday, CM was a rerun of the migraine-inducing "The Forever People." Because I'm a masochist I decide to watch it. When JJ told Spencer to "stop being you" I wanted to chuck my shoe at the TV screen. It was so cold and cutting at Spencer's very being-his empathy.

 

But at the same time, I got a bit peeved at Spencer. I know he is a truly caring person; that's one of the reasons why I find him so compelling. However, I wanted to tell him, "Give it up, Spencer. JJ doesn't care."

 

Yes, I know Spencer is concerned with JJ's PTSD. She's a co-worker and the mother of his godchild. In the earlier seasons, Spencer seemed to have a bit of a crush on JJ and maybe still carries a slight torch for her (what is it about men and their love for icy, bitchy women?). But after a while, Spencer has got to realize there is no use on wasting his "essence" on JJ, and move on. And he owes his empathy to someone more important-himself.

 

Back to JJ. I don't know what purpose Messer and Co. feel they are serving by making her CM's Mary Sue, especially at the expense of the other characters. It's like JJ is the brightly burning sun, and everyone else are just dim planets revolving around her. Now I don't expect the writers to turn JJ into a total failure of a woman; just make her human. She doesn't have to have the best profiling skills or be kicking down doors in single blow. She can cry, rage and have a meltdown due to being tortured. She can seek therapy due to her PTSD issues. She can have a chaotlic homelife filled with every day messiness that plagues a lot of parents (and even those of us who aren't parents). Hell, give her a bad hair day now and then!

[Cobalt Stargazer]

But still, what makes JJ such a compelling character to Erica, so compelling that other characters get relegated to just looking pretty and spouting random facts (Spencer, of course) or becoming a babbling cartoon character (Garcia)? Is it because JJ is a mother?

 

I wish I knew.

 

Even if I accept what seems to be Messer's idea, that JJ is just the most interesting and fascinating character in the history of ever, there's no clear "why" to it. At least not one that I can see. If its the being a mother thing, was it her decision to write AJ's real life pregnancy into the show? Because that would fit, I think, making her even more "ideal", at least in Erica's eyes. I'm not sure of the timeline, so she might not have been the one to greenlight it. And this is why I'm so ambivalent about acknowledging actual pregnancies in-show, for any show, because then the focus shifts to being All. About. Parenthood. Which, in itself, isn't a bad thing. Lives change, people's goals shift, they start to want different things.

 

But when you consider that Hotch's marriage imploded because Haley decided she was no longer okay with the way things had been before Jack was born, it seems fairly glaring that Will has made not one peep about JJ being in the field all the time doing her job. Not that he "should", but then you throw in the business about the miscarriage, which happened because she knowingly went into danger while pregnant. Hell, we had to wait an entire frigging year before the writers even decided that everything was not hunky-dory with her. How much longer might we have to wait before we see her deal with losing the kid? I shudder to think.

 

My point is, all this stuff has happened to her, and yet she's like a Weeble, she wobbles but she doesn't fall down. Hell, she barely even wobbles at all, if you think about it. She just trundles right along, with her Pantene hair ruffling in the breeze. It's as annoying as shit.

Edited June 30, 2015 by thewhiteowl
edited quoted post

[Old Dog]

 

I wish I knew.

 

Even if I accept what seems to be Messer's idea, that JJ is just the most interesting and fascinating character in the history of ever, there's no clear "why" to it. At least not one that I can see. If its the being a mother thing, was it her decision to write AJ's real life pregnancy into the show? Because that would fit, I think, making her even more "ideal", at least in Erica's eyes. I'm not sure of the timeline, so she might not have been the one to greenlight it. And this is why I'm so ambivalent about acknowledging actual pregnancies in-show, for any show, because then the focus shifts to being All. About. Parenthood. Which, in itself, isn't a bad thing. Lives change, people's goals shift, they start to want different things.

 

But when you consider that Hotch's marriage imploded because Haley decided she was no longer okay with the way things had been before Jack was born, it seems fairly glaring that Will has made not one peep about JJ being in the field all the time doing her job. Not that he "should", but then you throw in the business about the miscarriage, which happened because she knowingly went into danger while pregnant. Hell, we had to wait an entire frigging year before the writers even decided that everything was not hunky-dory with her. How much longer might we have to wait before we see her deal with losing the kid? I shudder to think.

 

My point is, all this stuff has happened to her, and yet she's like a Weeble, she wobbles but she doesn't fall down. Hell, she barely even wobbles at all, if you think about it. She just trundles right along, with her Pantene hair ruffling in the breeze. It's as annoying as shit.

Don't even put it out there that they should delve deeply into JJ dealing with her issues! At this stage I don't care if she is Teflon coated as long as she takes up minimal screentime and stops overshadowing the main stars.

[Danielg342]

I honestly think Erica Messer is driven by feminism. Not that this is, inherently, a bad thing- I know I've raked CM over the coals on it many times, but it's more about the misapplication of feminism than the concept itself (which shouldn't be a dirty word), and I think it applies in this case.

 

It's not just JJ that has undergone a radical transformation on CM in the past few years. We've also seen:

 

-A disproportionate rise in the amount of male victims (and male victims being used as pathetic pawns)

-The reduction in the role of the male characters on the show (even Morgan, who's essentially just a "prop" for how "tough" JJ is)

-An overemphasis on stories involving families and other "soap opera" plots (stereotypical female interests)

-An increase in the prominence of Garcia (albeit this has been going on since S3)

 

Now, it could be argued that the "non-roles" of Blake and Kate counteract this, but I think it helps reinforce it. Consider this- the only male character of note who was added to the cast- Mateo Cruz- was essentially just used as a "support" character for JJ, whereas Blake and Kate got actual storylines, as well as family figures and friendships. The only thing we know about Cruz is that he had a part in "200"- we've yet to know if he's got a wife, kids, ambitions, dirty laundry, etc.

 

I also find it very interesting that the only storylines Morgan and Reid really got were girlfriends, and that Hotch had to endure grief that he couldn't save Haley (not just from Roy, but also in "Route 66"). Rossi may have had the veteran storyline (but that was at Joe Mantegna's insistence), but he also wound up getting a long lost daughter.

 

So I look at JJ, the all-powerful, all-knowing, pretending to care "Supermom" as the icing on what appears to be a very, very pink cake at CM.

 

Of course, this still leaves the question about why JJ was chosen as the "special" girl. There's only speculation, but I suspect Messer may have wanted Prentiss for that role (given that Prentiss is more of a natural at being a badass than JJ is) but decided against it after Paget Brewster decided she only wanted to stay for that one year. She may have also thought that a new character being used as a "supergirl" would result in the fanbase not giving her a chance, so JJ- whom the fans already knew- was used in this role. I also believe that JJ already possessed qualities Messer liked, such as the fact she's already a mother (whereas Prentiss wasn't).

 

Whether or not this is all good is up for debate (and I know we've debated it countless times). I think it could have been good- I think of Scandal (before it went off the rails) as proof that "feminist" doesn't have to mean "bad"- but it simply isn't, simply because Messer fails at the basic fundamentals of storywriting. When it comes to JJ, we could have had at least a tolerable character if the numerous opportunities for flaws really did provide an effective payoff. Perhaps S11 will provide hope, but I'm losing patience.

[amensisterfriend]

So what do we know about JJ, or at least think we know?! This isn't my usual and by now tiresomely repetitive 'why I don't like JJ...' post; I'm just generally trying to get a firmer grasp on who she's supposed to be in my neverending compulsion to give more thought to the characters than the writers do ;) JJ is a prime example---though certainly not the only one, IMO---of a character whose increased screentime has somehow failed to result in any illumination of her character. Here's what I know and/or think:

 

1)She's from a small town

2) She was an athlete 

3) Although she was 'popular' and had academic and athletic success there, she seems to have found her small town stifling and sometimes expresses blatant resentment towards small communities in general and the rumors and gossip that tend to spread so quickly there 

4) I get the sense that she kept many people in her town at a friendly distance and had few truly close friends 

5) It turns out her sister killed herself, which may be related to much of the above

6) She liked butterflies(!) Maybe a metaphor for leaving the constraints and expectations of small town life and evolving into a freer, more fully realized adult...?

7) She seems to deal better with strangers (victims and their families, the public at large etc) but is actually pretty guarded in her personal interactions, deflecting attempts at closeness with 'playful' jokes and sarcasm and/or snotty eye rolls and coldness. (Whether any of this is intentional on the part of the writers is perpetually in doubt, but that's always how I've seen her!) 

8) She's a mom and loves being a mom. Whether she loves or has ever truly loved her husband is up for debate! 

9) Unlike Emily, who's been through a lot of rebellious stages and identity shifts, JJ has generally conformed to expectations, the 'perfect' small town popular student athlete, the hyper-competent FBI employee with nary a hair out of place, the nearly perfect supermom, etc. Maybe that leads to simmering rebellion beneath the surface...?! 

10) She is thought to be the group's 'heart' and compassionate one, but actually has an easier time showing warmth to strangers than her close friends, at least in my observations! 

 

I'd love to see more JJ analysis from both JJ fans and those who are meh on her :) 

Edited July 3, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Old Dog]

I'm kind of tempted to use your comment from another thread here!

 

"And I'm not interested enough in JJ to expend the effort"

 

But I will say that back in the day, in episodes like North Mammon and Legacy, I could feel some compassion from her towards victims and that detective with OCD and I quite liked her. Those days are long gone and the prevailing feeling with her now is coldness and arrogance,

I also have never felt any connection whatsoever between her and Will. Quite how they managed to get close enough to actually conceive a child is one of the mysteries of the Universe.

But yes, you can see how much AJ adores Mekhai in the scenes with Henry and I am sure AJ is a brilliant mom.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Old Dog

[amensisterfriend]

I also have never felt any connection between her and Will. Quite how they managed to get close enough to actually conceive a child is one of the mysteries of the Universe

 

LOL---now I need a warped fanfic about this immaculate conception! :) 

[ForeverAlone]

Other things we know/think:

1. JJ is afraid of the woods.

2. JJ is a fitness monster and loves to work out.

3. JJ is skilled (to an almost comic degree at times) in hand to hand combat.

4. JJ is decidedly non geeky and has no interest in comic books, geek TV shows, video games and the like. And she will never go to Comic Con with Reid. :) :) :)

[amensisterfriend]

That anti-geek sentiment pretty much seals that I will never truly love or connect with this character! It's also one of many reasons why I could never ship her with Reid like so much of the fandom seems to.

Edited July 3, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Saje]

I can see her with Reid, though I'd much rather see Reid with ME.

[ForeverAlone]

Yeah, Reid and JJ have no common interests from what we can see. They are just too different and I can never imagine them in a relationship. I think Reid crushed on her, because she was a beautiful woman who was nice to him, and not because he established any other sort of connection to her.

LOL---now I need a warped fanfic about this immaculate conception! :)

Well...when the writers decided to incorporate AJ's real life pregnancy into the show, they needed to reverse engineer a baby daddy, since JJ was not in any sort of canon relationship at that point. And based on the limited stuff we saw, Will was the only plausible candidate we had seen before, because they didn't want to create some mystery long term boyfriend we had never heard about before. If they hadn't decided to write in AJ's pregnancy, we never would have seen Will again, nor would they likely have been in a relationship.

[Old Dog]

Yeah, Reid and JJ have no common interests from what we can see. They are just too different and I can never imagine them in a relationship. I think Reid crushed on her, because she was a beautiful woman who was nice to him, and not because he established any other sort of connection to her.

Well...when the writers decided to incorporate AJ's real life pregnancy into the show, they needed to reverse engineer a baby daddy, since JJ was not in any sort of canon relationship at that point. And based on the limited stuff we saw, Will was the only plausible candidate we had seen before, because they didn't want to create some mystery long term boyfriend we had never heard about before. If they hadn't decided to write in AJ's pregnancy, we never would have seen Will again, nor would they likely have been in a relationship.

That's true indeed but we still have not seen a scrap of chemistry between them since!

[katha]

So...I rewatched "The Crossing" from season three, written by Messer and Fisher. It's not the greatest episode ever, but parts of it are quite interesting. What struck me about it is this: It's ostensibly a "JJ heavy" episode and she is the focus much of the time. She's championing taking the stalker case, she talks about how much pressure her job brings with it, she gets (overly) personally invested, they clumsily establish that she's pregnant. But...IMO much of that is heavy-handed and not particularly good writing for the character. I actually think Prentiss and Morgan are better drawn in that plotline, even though they aren't as prominently featured.

 

And the B-plot with Hotch and Rossi assessing the case of the psychologically abused wife who killed her husband is for me much stronger. It has good characterization for both Hotch and Rossi. And the case because it's so quiet and sad is very effective. I guess I just find it curious what happened there: They obviously set out to establish certain things about JJ and make her the center of attention in that episode. Yet the other parts, where perhaps they weren't trying so hard to reach a certain end goal, stand up as stronger. I wonder if that sometimes happens with the writing for JJ in general now?

 

To be fair, Messer isn't always so heavy-handed and she's often written very well for JJ and perhaps circumstances during that time were forcing her hand a bit. Still: Because they (writers, producers, network?) maybe want to drive home certain points about the character (tough action hero! super profiler! best mom!) they overplay their hand and come up with a lot of OTT and forced scenarios for her. Which then is detrimental for the character, no matter how much screen time she gets. It's screen time that is sometimes not that well used to establish believable and coherent things about her. Though they have been better about it this last season.

Edited July 18, 2015 by katha

[Bookish Jen]

So...I rewatched "The Crossing" from season three, written by Messer and Fisher. It's not the greatest episode ever, but parts of it are quite interesting. What struck me about it is this: It's ostensibly a "JJ heavy" episode and she is the focus much of the time. She's championing taking the stalker case, she talks about how much pressure her job brings with it, she gets (overly) personally invested, they clumsily establish that she's pregnant. But...IMO much of that is heavy-handed and not particularly good writing for the character. I actually think Prentiss and Morgan are better drawn in that plotline, even though they aren't as prominently featured.

 

And the B-plot with Hotch and Rossi assessing the case of the psychologically abused wife who killed her husband is for me much stronger. It has good characterization for both Hotch and Rossi. And the case because it's so quiet and sad is very effective. I guess I just find it curious what happened there: They obviously set out to establish certain things about JJ and make her the center of attention in that episode. Yet the other parts, where perhaps they weren't trying so hard to reach a certain end goal, stand up as stronger. I wonder if that sometimes happens with the writing for JJ in general now?

 

To be fair, Messer isn't always so heavy-handed and she's often written very well for JJ and perhaps circumstances during that time were forcing her hand a bit. Still: Because they (writers, producers, network?) maybe want to drive home certain points about the character (tough action hero! super profiler! best mom!) they overplay their hand and come up with a lot of OTT and forced scenarios for her. Which then is detrimental for the character, no matter how much screen time she gets. It's screen time that is sometimes not that well used to establish believable and coherent things about her. Though they have been better about it this last season.

Now that you mention this episode the only part of it I can remember is the B-plot featuring Hotch, Rosssi and the abused wife. I remember crying so much because the wife's situation was so heartbreaking. I don't remember JJ at all.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Bookish Jen

[ForeverAlone]

This is just freaking embarrassing. I may not be a big JJ fan, but even I know AJ's real name. And these are the people who are supposed to be promoting the show, so you would THINK they would know some stuff about their actors, like you know, their names. Particularly since JJ seems to be their golden girl these days. But then again, whoever runs their social media accounts certainly know less about the show and the actors than the fans do, because this is not the first time they have gotten something wrong. This is just the first time they need to hide their head in shame.

 

http://www.cbs.com/shows/criminal_minds/photos/1004438/5-things-you-didn-t-know-about-a-j-cook-of-criminal-minds/

Edited July 22, 2015 by ForeverAlone