S08.E10: The Champagne Reflection

[Driad]

We know that Howard's master's degree is from MIT, but where did he go for undergrad?

[chocolatine]

I think if the writers ever did decide to address this we'd learn that Howard and his mother shared an apartment in Cambridge while Howard went to school.

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised, since she joined him in Houston when he went to space camp.

[SmithW6079]

When Phil Hartman was killed by his wife, the characters he voiced on "The Simpsons" -- Troy McClure and Lionel Hutz (not sure if he did others) -- just never appeared again. I believe on "News Radio" they "killed" the character off during hiatus by saying he had a heart attack.

 

I don't want to see a VSE about Mrs. Wolowitz, because I don't think she particularly touched any of the friends' lives, other than Howard (obviously), Bernadette, and Stuart, certainly not anything to warrant an entire episode devoted to the character.

 

I wish Penny or her boss had flat out told Bernadette that she was a nasty bitch who was creating a hostile work environment. I dislike what they've done with the character of Bernadette. She's become a shrew, almost as unpleasant as Mrs. Wolowitz. But obviously Howard is attracted to those kinds of women.

[AKA...CJ86]

Oh good I'm glad there was the eye roll at the top 3 comment.  I thought I was alone.  I liked the reasons you gave ( bad waitress-->terrible actress-->stellar rep)

I didn't mind the top 3 comment I guess since, IIRC, wasn't Penny using her best assets to score business in a previous ep?

[Latverian Diplomat]

The parts with cleaning out the office didn't make much sense, IMO.

Of them all, Howard has objectively achieved the most, so the whole sentiment including him was odd.

 

And if you know academic research, paradigm shifts happen maybe once or twice in a century, so this whole idea of "success" seems to me very based on some Hollywood idea of overnight success.

Just because he didn't make any breakthroughs didn't mean he didn't achieve anything. They should have read his publications, not rummage through his office.

 

You don't have to win a Nobel Prize to be a success in academic research--but it helps :-) .

 

It's about getting papers published that influence others (a high score in the citation index), standing with peers, bringing in grant dollars, starting up research programs that create opportunities for others, training grad students who go on to do great things themselves, etc.

 

And yes, it typically starts with a significant paper or series of papers, early in one's career, though a paper can be "significant" in this sense even if only a few hundred people have ever heard of it. 

 

It's clear that Professor Abbott accomplished none of these things. That happens, even to smart, insightful, wonderful people.

 

But perhaps more importantly, he never opened that bottle because he himself never felt his work amounted to much.

 

Yes, Howard is already a remarkable success as an engineer, and IIRC he decided against pursuing a PhD? So, he was out of place in that conversation.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Latverian Diplomat

[Hecate7]

He decided against taking Sheldon's class. I think the PhD might still be on.

[Hecate7]

Yes, but it didn't have to be.  I was waiting for some pay off where one of them committed to doing something of meaning with their lives (i.e. Howard commiting to having children which would have also been a great pay off for Bernadette's painful work storyline, I mean if Bernadette had come to the same consclusion on her own.) The professor storyline would have been a lot more meaningful and powerful if they had substituted the death of Mrs. Wolowitz for the death of this unknown professor.

Bernadette has said she does not want kids. I don't think deciding to have them would pay off the work storyline at all. Bernadette knows she's not suited to being a Mom.

 

I get her being a bully with the father she's got. That's inevitable--those people who teach their kids about crybabies and wimps in that manner, invariably churn out terrible bullies because they ARE terrible bullies themselves. What I do NOT get, is her marrying Howard, given that she is a bully. There has to be some part of her that found Howard adorable, and that needs to come out pronto, because it's looking a lot like they need to divorce otherwise. I'm not liking Bernadette right now.

[CherryAmes]

See, in that scene I thought she was particularly terrible, but L. would of course think she was great, and I just chalked up the others' reactions to not being exposed to the arts all that much and therefore not having a baseline of comparison.

 

I disagree.  I think the intent on the part of the writers was to tell the audience that Penny was a good actress and that it didn't matter.  Good wasn't going to be good enough for her to succeed which I think was the right message to give - -far better than giving Joey Tribbiana all sorts of unrealistic breaks when  in fact he was shown to be a terrible actor!  Also with regard to Leonard are we ever given to believe he had an idealized vision of Penny's talents?  I am reminded of the singing episode where he and Sheldon get caught in a spiral of lies so he won't have to go see her sing in Rent.

Edited November 26, 2014 by CherryAmes

[Nessie]

See, in that scene I thought she was particularly terrible, but L. would of course think she was great, and I just chalked up the others' reactions to not being exposed to the arts all that much and therefore not having a baseline of comparison. I didn't come away from that ep thinking she was a good actress at all.

IIRC, Sheldon said that she was "remarkable" to which Leonard said something like "she really is".  Then Sheldon went on to marvel that she could memorize all those lines but wasn't able to remember his hamburger order at the Cheesecake Factory.  So IMO, he never said she was a good actress, just that he was impressed with her ability to memorize lines.

 

I disagree.  I think the intent on the part of the writers was to tell the audience that Penny was a good actress and that it didn't matter.  Good wasn't going to be good enough for her to succeed which I think was the right message to give - -far better than giving Joey Tribbiana all sorts of unrealistic breaks when  in fact he was shown to be a terrible actor!  Also with regard to Leonard are we ever given to believe he had an idealized vision of Penny's talents?  I am reminded of the singing episode where he and Sheldon get caught in a spiral of lies so he won't have to go see her sing in Rent.

And yet Sheldon never hesitates to ask her to sing "Soft Kitty" to him. :-)

[Pippin]

I haven't seen this episode, so this is just a general comment.

am disappointed that Bernadette did not have the breakthrough she seemed to be on the verge of.  I am certainly thankful she is not my colleague, she seems more high maintainance than Sheldon.

 

 

 

 

 

  But sincere breakthroughs aren't funny.

 

 

 

 

   

 

I must respectfully disagree.  With the proper writing, characters making breakthroughs or realizing things about themselves can be friggin' hilarious.  Topics that could never ever be considered funny can have you in stitches.

My personal gold standard is All in the Family.  Breast cancer, rape, infidelity, marital crises, racism, sexism -- none of that is funny, is it?  Yet All in the Family tackled these topics in a way that made you think -- and laugh.  And the characters grew and changed and had breakthroughs -- but remained recognizable as themselves. 

Archie was a bigot.  He would never become president of NAACP, (although he did end up joining a synagogue!). But he loved his wife and family in his own fashion, and his interactions with Baby Joey and later, Stephanie, shows that, political incorrectness aside, he was a loving dad.

Edith started out a submissive "dingbat".  She still had problems "getting it" sometimes, but she learned to stand up for herself, going out, getting a job and deftly sidestepping Archie's manipulation.

Gloria started out as a kewpie doll.  She developed into an intelligent, assertive  woman who often got the best of her husband.

I never cared for Mike, but he did learn that he could be a pompous ass.  (Always wondered how long he remained at that commune).

So if you have the talent, you can do it. 

The other thing I like(d) about All in the Family was that if someone acted like an asshole, they had consequences arising from their behaviour.  TBBT never allows that to happen.  That's why the characters don't grow and have regressed into caricatures.

 

 

 

 

  

Edited November 29, 2014 by Pippin

[Hecate7]

IIRC, Sheldon said that she was "remarkable" to which Leonard said something like "she really is".  Then Sheldon went on to marvel that she could memorize all those lines but wasn't able to remember his hamburger order at the Cheesecake Factory.  So IMO, he never said she was a good actress, just that he was impressed with her ability to memorize lines.

 

And yet Sheldon never hesitates to ask her to sing "Soft Kitty" to him. :-)

Well, Penny was woefully miscast in Rent, as Mimi. She could have pulled off Maureen Johnson, the Idina Menzel role, because Maureen can be any race, but Mimi really has to be at least part Puerto Rican, because of the line "sounds too much like home when the Spanish babies cry." That's wince-worthy with a Nebraska blonde actress singing it, and "Take Me Out Tonight" is hard to listen to from anybody who isn't a real singer. Penny was obviously good, but it's a very tough business. I think she still might make it. After all, the actress playing her has.

[chocolatine]

Penny was obviously good, but it's a very tough business. I think she still might make it. After all, the actress playing her has.

 

 

There's a huge difference between Penny and Kaley. Kaley has been in the business since she was a child, and by the age that Penny was when she first tried to break into the business, Kaley already had two successful TV shows under her belt (8 Simple Rules and Charmed).

[CherryAmes]

That's true of course but even so there are a lot of talented kids out there trying to get into show business and they don't succeed.  For that matter it's not hard to find child actors who crashed and burned once they outgrew child and teen roles.   Talent helps of course but a lot of it is being in the right role at the right time.  For Penny that just didn't happen,  Kudos to BBT for writing what is far more the reality than not.

[photo fox]

Hey, guys, let's try to keep these episode topics to comments about the actual episode. If you want to discuss a character's arc over time, or a past episode, etc., there are other topics for all of that.

I generally give a lot of leeway on this, but I just had to move nearly 30 posts that were solely about how they should address Ms. Susi's death over to the Wish List topic.

Thanks for the help!