S04.E07: Winter Show

[EtheltoTillie]

On 12/8/2024 at 4:30 PM, amarante said:

I am Jewish - grew up in such a predominantly Jewish neighborhood that I couldn't understand reading that Jews were a minority because the minority were the few Italian Catholics with Christmas decorations

That said we didn't celebrate Christmas - didn't have a Hanukah bush but we did visit Fifth Avenue to see the incredible windows. As an adult it was Chinese food and first run movies - SNL has a fantastic short which features Darlene Love belting out Christmas Time For The Jews with Smigel animated cartoon. 

I love music of all kinds so I spent a decade collecting Christmas Music of all genres - from Big Mama Thornton/Bessie Smith - The Drifters, Judy Garland, Guns n Roses to yes Run DMC. And of course Phil Spector's Christmas Album which is still something I enjoy listening to 50 years after its release. I relish the sheer variety of music styles that one could collect.

I think my school did have some kind of Christmas assembly but nothing overtly religious - no creche, no Silent Night. I guess to a purist Rudolph and Santa and even Frosty represent Christianity but none of the Jewish families seemed to care. You really can't escape Christmas If you navigate the world even if it does not resonate in any way. As a child I remember the Planetarium show had Santa flying across the skY

 

The funniest line is where they show the playbill with the fiddler on the roof cast.  The part usually played by Rosie O’Donnell . . .  
 

Did you also grow up in NYc like me?  I lived in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood in queens and even all our teachers were Jewish. But we sang nonsectarian Christmas songs like Sleigh Ride. My family was an exception because my aunts were married to Italians. So we had Christmas like the Schimentis. 

Edited December 12 by EtheltoTillie

[ridethemaverick]

I grew up in black schools and my kids attend black schools...nobody would think to do a winter show instead of Christmas unless it came up, so that part rang very true to me. 

I need Ava and Oshon to go ahead and make it do what it do. I like a slow burn, but those two are hot AF. 

Edited December 12 by ridethemaverick

[amarante]

4 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

The funniest line is where they show the playbill with the fiddler on the roof cast.  The part usually played by Rosie O’Donnell . . .  
 

Did you also grow up in NYc like me?  I lived in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood in queens and even all our teachers were Jewish. But we sang nonsectarian Christmas songs like Sleigh Ride. My family was an exception because my aunts were married to Italians. So we had Christmas like the Schimentis. 

I grew up in Brooklyn in Midwood. I remember my father taking us to visit a work friend to see his Christmas tree. 

I didn't understand the logic of completely eliminating any mention of "Christmas". I assumed that public school was now more multi-cultural and so all of the winter holidays would be celebrated so you would have the Dreidel song; something relating to Kwanzaa and perhaps other holidays that are festivals of light. Anthropologically most cultures have festivals with "lights" in proximity to the Winter Solstice because they are rooted in ancient superstitions of wanting the sun to return. Same reason most cultures have festivals when the harvest is traditionally done in the Fall. 

Decking the halls with "boughs" of holly is related to Druidic customs rather than Christianity anyway :-)

 

[EtheltoTillie]

3 minutes ago, amarante said:

I grew up in Brooklyn in Midwood. I remember my father taking us to visit a work friend to see his Christmas tree. 

I didn't understand the logic of completely eliminating any mention of "Christmas". I assumed that public school was now more multi-cultural and so all of the winter holidays would be celebrated so you would have the Dreidel song; something relating to Kwanzaa and perhaps other holidays that are festivals of light. Anthropologically most cultures have festivals with "lights" in proximity to the Winter Solstice because they are rooted in ancient superstitions of wanting the sun to return. Same reason most cultures have festivals when the harvest is traditionally done in the Fall. 

Decking the halls with "boughs" of holly is related to Druidic customs rather than Christianity anyway :-)

 

I guess the public schools still have to stay away from religion of all kinds.  Not really sure.  I may ask a teacher friend.  She teaches at an elementary school in the Bronx. 

And by the way my Italian relatives never went to church or had any religious practice.  It was all about the food.

[amarante]

25 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I guess the public schools still have to stay away from religion of all kinds.  Not really sure.  I may ask a teacher friend.  She teaches at an elementary school in the Bronx. 

And by the way my Italian relatives never went to church or had any religious practice.  It was all about the food.

There is a difference between a reenactment of the birth of Jesus with a creche and kids having a song fest with Jingle Bells, Frosty, The Dreidel Song and equivalent stuff from other cultures. Silent Night is inappropriate clearly as would the Maccabee Battle Song :-)

[ridethemaverick]

19 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I guess the public schools still have to stay away from religion of all kinds.  Not really sure.  I may ask a teacher friend.  She teaches at an elementary school in the Bronx. 

And by the way my Italian relatives never went to church or had any religious practice.  It was all about the food.

They don't have to necessarily. Went to my daughter's Christmas concert last night. The school choir sang silent night. The concert band played Oh Holy Night, Joy to the World, etc. It's not even a question. The culture is just different. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 12/12/2024 at 1:32 PM, amarante said:

There is a difference between a reenactment of the birth of Jesus with a creche and kids having a song fest with Jingle Bells, Frosty, The Dreidel Song and equivalent stuff from other cultures. Silent Night is inappropriate clearly as would the Maccabee Battle Song :-)

Christmas is a celebration of the birth of a religion.  Chanukah is a celebration of the fact that enemies did not succeed in suppressing a religion.  (For those who don't know, the Maccabees were a family who led a revolt against the Syrian Greek king who wanted to Hellenize the Jews in Jerusalem in 168 BCE.) When I was young, I wished that holiday songs were kept to the home or religious institution.

Edited December 18 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 12/13/2024 at 8:11 AM, ridethemaverick said:

They don't have to necessarily. Went to my daughter's Christmas concert last night. The school choir sang silent night. The concert band played Oh Holy Night, Joy to the World, etc. It's not even a question. The culture is just different. 

Is this a private Christian school?  Imagine how a Jewish or Muslim child might feel if they were in a school choir that was performing Holy Night and Joy to the World.  They would feel excluded. (My understanding is that Muslims consider Jesus to have been a prophet who was born to a virgin, but they don't consider him to have been divine.)

I will say that I like Little Drummer Boy, but it doesn't belong in public school.   Freedom from religion is an important Constitutional principle.

Edited December 18 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ridethemaverick]

3 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Is this a private Christian school?  Imagine how a Jewish or Muslim child might feel if they were in a school choir that was performing Holy Night and Joy to the World.  They would feel excluded. (My understanding is that Muslims consider Jesus to have been a prophet who was born to a virgin, but they don't consider him to have been divine.)

I will say that I like Little Drummer Boy, but it doesn't belong in public school.   Freedom from religion is an important Constitutional principle.

Large public high school. 

I don't disagree that some might feel excluded. I guess nobody has complained yet. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

6 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

Large public high school. 

I don't disagree that some might feel excluded. I guess nobody has complained yet. 

Would you mind saying what part of the country? No need to identify a particular state.

[ridethemaverick]

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Would you mind saying what part of the country? No need to identify a particular state.

We're in Georgia.

[amarante]

5 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

We're in Georgia.

I think religion in schools is much more of an issue in Southern states or other states in which Christianity is viewed as the state religion and the "minority" religions truly are a minority and are forced to participate in overtly religious stuff. Religious participation is used as a weapon.

Horror stories abound of Jewish or Muslim children bullied into participating in Christian prayers.

In places like New York City or Philadelphia this doesn't exist and so I don't think most parents have issues with a winter festival which includes "nods" to varying "winter solstice" holidays from different cultures. Dinwalli, Kwanzaa, Chanukah, Christmas and anything else isn't offensive but inclusive. 

I thought it was absurd that Jingle Bells was deemed as having inappropriate religious content since there isn't any religious reference in it. The bullying of the Muslim girl should have been handled by using it as a teaching experience. 

[possibilities]

It's hard to complain when you are in the minority. It doesn't feel safe and often it isn't safe and leads to even more bullying.

The school that has Christmas going on, is sending a message to non-Christian students that our feelings don't matter. And when you try to speak up, often the response is that you are raining on other people's happiness, so shut up. Nobody wants to be "that person" and be hated or resented and possibly treated with even more hostility because they spoke up. 

That's why it's just wrong to wait for people to complain. 

Also, technically it's illegal to establish a state religion (that's the 1st Amendment everybody likes to shout about), and public schools are funded with government money. But it takes a lot to sue your school, and most people will just swallow their unhappiness and not go that route.

The majority can take advantage of that feeling of exhaustion and how minorities feel intimidated and uncomfortable, or it can decide to be friendly and make a community that is considerate and kind, and not force people to do things like suffer, complain, or sue.

[ridethemaverick]

My mother was the first black student at her high school. She braved way worse than bullying, so I definitely know how that goes. 

If it's worth fighting for, you just have to do it. It would be nice if people gave you what you want without having to, but unfortunately, that's not the world we live in (yet). No majority group ever voluntarily relinquishes privilege. In my culture, that's been common knowledge for 400 years. 

[possibilities]

We know it, too, since Jews have been hounded from place to place for millenia. But that doesn't make it right. And allies are made from understanding. Most people don't win their fights without allies, and a lasting peace requires conversion of hearts, not only success via force.

[ridethemaverick]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

We know it, too, since Jews have been hounded from place to place for millenia. But that doesn't make it right. And allies are made from understanding. Most people don't win their fights without allies, and a lasting peace requires conversion of hearts, not only success via force.

I never once said it was right. 

Allies join the fray when individuals give voice to a social problem that affects them and start the fight against it. Otherwise, we'd all be walking around assuming people are aggrieved and speaking for/over them. 

To bring this back to Abbott, Barbara acted immediately when Khadija spoke up for herself about feeling left out. But I'm sure there are Khadijas in the world who participate, who celebrate, who don't care either way, etc. 

Edited December 20 by ridethemaverick

[possibilities]

Well, that's why I'm speaking up.

But I also don't excuse people for being passive bigots and not bothering to develop the skill of empathy and curiosity even before they are challenged. If we collectively did more of that, we wouldn't have so many problems in the world.

[ridethemaverick]

On 12/20/2024 at 6:37 PM, possibilities said:

Well, that's why I'm speaking up.

But I also don't excuse people for being passive bigots and not bothering to develop the skill of empathy and curiosity even before they are challenged. If we collectively did more of that, we wouldn't have so many problems in the world.

Similarly, I don't excuse people for being passive aggressive, paternalistic virtue signalers who care more about looking like an ally than actually listening to what marginalized people have to say. 

[possibilities]

Wow. If that's how I come across, I apologize. The things I talk about are things I've personally experienced, but clearly it isn't sounding real or sincere and in that case, I've failed.