Sarah's Sober Second Thought Series: A Lot Of Filing, And Giving Things Names

[Primetimer]

The Buffy Rewatch finds a lot to love -- and to mourn -- in the second half of Season 4.

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[monocles]

While I always wished for a bit more to Tara in the fourth season (although you're probably right that this was a less-is-more case), I thought everything we didn't know about her made her the perfect person to be floating around in Restless posing mysterious questions to Buffy. Not that the character was a blank slate you could do anything with, but it didn't seem like that much of a stretch.

Also, I will always, always love Tara and Anya in Giles' bathroom during "The I In Team", awkwardly discussing tile.
 

[AndySmith]

Season 4 is somewhat in the middle of my Buffy rankings. Not as good as the seasons that preceded it, but not as bad as some of the ones that followed. My overall take:

Season 1 - Good show-building, even if they are making it up as they go along

Season 2 - Awesome

Season 3 - Also awesome

Season 4 - Hit or miss

Season 5 - Also hit or miss and ugh Dawn and ugh why is Spike still alive?

Season 6 - God this was bad and Once More With Feeling is overrated blatant Emmy baiting

Season 7 - Starts out strong but falls apart and thank God they canceled it when they did.

[Loandbehold]

Superstar - before I get to Jane Espenson's fluttering heart over Danny Strong and how very wrong the story is because of it, I must say that the opening credits are brilliant. And, that's where what is basically a one-joke episode should have ended. Looking back, it would have been so much better had Jonathan been a character on the outside. You could have had the calendar, the books, both comic and autobiography, the appearances on the red carpet, and a nagging feeling by the gang that they knew Jonathan but didn't know him. All that without any interaction with the gang. Instead, we get Jane Espenson swooning over SuperJ as he date raped the twins, who after all are only sleeping with him due to the giant roofie he gave the world. On top of that, by the end of the episode, Jonathan has saved Buffy (so all he did is A-OK because he is the hero), he's gotten Buffy and Riley back together (which, even if you didn't like the couple, the show wants you to), and is the hero for the season when literally the biggest ass-pull comes out of Jane's script. Jonathan appears in the Initiative and says that he's looked at Adam's schematics. And, since there is nothing there, and nobody has seen him eat anything (how? what? how?), there must be a uranium core which will be his weakness. It was at this point that my brain didn't just check out, but drilled out of my head and left a "Gone Fishing" sign. Thus Jonathan was the real hero of the season. Not Buffy. Not the Scooby Gang. Not Riley. Hell, not even Spike. Jonathan. Looking back, I used to think of this episode as a poor man's Bewtitched, Bothered, and Bewildered, but it's not really. BB&B was a truly funny episode, with consequences. By the end of the episode, while he does get back together with Cordelia, Xander still needs a month of groveling to be friends with Willow, he's realized what he did was wrong, was punched by Oz, dragged out a two-story window and almost killed by Angelus. And, he remembers what he's done. Jonathan? He doesn't get arrested for date rape. He doesn't apologize to anyone but Buffy, and his punishment is that everything goes back to what it was and he won't even remember it. Aw, poor baby.

 

I actually liked the character of Jonathan when he was the everyman. He was us - one of the people Buffy rescued, and one of the only ones given a name who we would see several times. I also believe that Danny Strong gave an excellent performance as SuperJ. The problem lies entirely with the script.

[VCRTracking]

The "hiding from the Initiative" slumber party in Xander's basement with Willow, Anya and Buffy sharing the couchbed watching cartoons and Giles sleeping on a beanbag chair in Goodbye, Iowa will never not be cute to me.

[Tarasme]

Thanks Sarah- I had forgotten much of season 4. I think that's the problem with it for me; while I don't loathe it like I do seasons 5 & 6, I've pretty much gone amnesia on everything but the high points.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎10‎/‎09‎/‎2014 at 6:00 PM, PreviouslyTV said:

The Buffy Rewatch finds a lot to love -- and to mourn -- in the second half of Season 4.

Read the story

I don't really buy the idea that Buffy's anti-vamp sensibilities are wrong, with 2 noticeable exceptions they are inherently evil whilst werewolves are normal people 28 days a month (in the Buffyverse at least) and as long as they're responsible the rest of the time, fine. And yes, Oz kills to save Willow, nothing wrong with that.

 Never considered the headscarf but Riley is probably so pumped full of super serum he doesn't have to worry. I like Willow's hats, I figure she's just an Alex Mack fan. Yeah, SMG get too thin here (the Ally McBeal years) but worse in Family.    

On ‎10‎/‎09‎/‎2014 at 6:36 PM, monocles said:

While I always wished for a bit more to Tara in the fourth season (although you're probably right that this was a less-is-more case), I thought everything we didn't know about her made her the perfect person to be floating around in Restless posing mysterious questions to Buffy. Not that the character was a blank slate you could do anything with, but it didn't seem like that much of a stretch.

Also, I will always, always love Tara and Anya in Giles' bathroom during "The I In Team", awkwardly discussing tile.
 

Yeah, they have few scenes like that together, the newcomers to the Scoobs bonding. I also liked that we didn't see too much of Tara yet, remember she's still a little mysterious at this stage, why did she sabotage Will's demon hunting spell that time?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎10‎/‎09‎/‎2014 at 7:00 PM, AndySmith said:

Season 4 is somewhat in the middle of my Buffy rankings. Not as good as the seasons that preceded it, but not as bad as some of the ones that followed. My overall take:

Season 1 - Good show-building, even if they are making it up as they go along

Season 2 - Awesome

Season 3 - Also awesome

Season 4 - Hit or miss

Season 5 - Also hit or miss and ugh Dawn and ugh why is Spike still alive?

Season 6 - God this was bad and Once More With Feeling is overrated blatant Emmy baiting

Season 7 - Starts out strong but falls apart and thank God they canceled it when they did.

4 was the awkward second album, they'd lost 2 of the most popular characters and the high school setting where Buffy worked best and struggled to find their feet a little. By 5 they'd got their mojo back and I think they ended at the right time, the show had run its' course.   

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎10‎/‎09‎/‎2014 at 8:45 PM, Loandbehold said:

Superstar - before I get to Jane Espenson's fluttering heart over Danny Strong and how very wrong the story is because of it, I must say that the opening credits are brilliant. And, that's where what is basically a one-joke episode should have ended. Looking back, it would have been so much better had Jonathan been a character on the outside. You could have had the calendar, the books, both comic and autobiography, the appearances on the red carpet, and a nagging feeling by the gang that they knew Jonathan but didn't know him. All that without any interaction with the gang. Instead, we get Jane Espenson swooning over SuperJ as he date raped the twins, who after all are only sleeping with him due to the giant roofie he gave the world. On top of that, by the end of the episode, Jonathan has saved Buffy (so all he did is A-OK because he is the hero), he's gotten Buffy and Riley back together (which, even if you didn't like the couple, the show wants you to), and is the hero for the season when literally the biggest ass-pull comes out of Jane's script. Jonathan appears in the Initiative and says that he's looked at Adam's schematics. And, since there is nothing there, and nobody has seen him eat anything (how? what? how?), there must be a uranium core which will be his weakness. It was at this point that my brain didn't just check out, but drilled out of my head and left a "Gone Fishing" sign. Thus Jonathan was the real hero of the season. Not Buffy. Not the Scooby Gang. Not Riley. Hell, not even Spike. Jonathan. Looking back, I used to think of this episode as a poor man's Bewtitched, Bothered, and Bewildered, but it's not really. BB&B was a truly funny episode, with consequences. By the end of the episode, while he does get back together with Cordelia, Xander still needs a month of groveling to be friends with Willow, he's realized what he did was wrong, was punched by Oz, dragged out a two-story window and almost killed by Angelus. And, he remembers what he's done. Jonathan? He doesn't get arrested for date rape. He doesn't apologize to anyone but Buffy, and his punishment is that everything goes back to what it was and he won't even remember it. Aw, poor baby.

 

I actually liked the character of Jonathan when he was the everyman. He was us - one of the people Buffy rescued, and one of the only ones given a name who we would see several times. I also believe that Danny Strong gave an excellent performance as SuperJ. The problem lies entirely with the script.

That's not fair, Jonathan works so much better because of everything we've seen him go through it's nice that every dog has his day (I wonder if this ep's origin was based in the proposed ep where Xander becomes the Slayer?). Ironic of course considerig how amazing Danny Strong has done since. And he doesn't rape the Man Show twins, he makes himself better by cheating rather than doing anything to them, like Barney Stinson lying to the latest MacClarens bimbo of the week, plenty of rape in the Buffyverse but this isn't it. Remember Jonathan does save Buffy and sacrifice his great new life to do that and the scene between him and Buffy is lovely as it was in Earshot.  

On ‎12‎/‎09‎/‎2014 at 4:08 PM, VCRTracking said:

The "hiding from the Initiative" slumber party in Xander's basement with Willow, Anya and Buffy sharing the couchbed watching cartoons and Giles sleeping on a beanbag chair in Goodbye, Iowa will never not be cute to me.

Absolutely although amazed the adult fanficcers didn't make more of that scene?

Edited August 12, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎09‎/‎2014 at 2:46 PM, Tarasme said:

Thanks Sarah- I had forgotten much of season 4. I think that's the problem with it for me; while I don't loathe it like I do seasons 5 & 6, I've pretty much gone amnesia on everything but the high points.

Really I think the issues were;

1. Poor villain, Adam is terrible, I think it would all have been much better if Lindsey Crouse had stuck around.  

2. Riley doesn't cut the mustard as a romantic lead, certainly compared to Angel.

3. We lose Oz and Tara (and Anya) take time to grow on us but Spike is still the wacky neighbour. 

[Loandbehold]

8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

That's not fair, Jonathan works so much better because of everything we've seen him go through it's nice that every dog has his day (I wonder if this ep's origin was based in the proposed ep where Xander becomes the Slayer?). Ironic of course considerig how amazing Danny Strong has done since. And he doesn't rape the Man Show twins, he makes himself better by cheating rather than doing anything to them, like Barney Stinson lying to the latest MacClarens bimbo of the week, plenty of rape in the Buffyverse but this isn't it. Remember Jonathan does save Buffy and sacrifice his great new life to do that and the scene between him and Buffy is lovely as it was in Earshot.  

Well, now you've seen my Superstar  rant so I won't have to repeat it in that episode thread. Comparing Jonathan to Barney Stinson does him no favors. Plus, while Barney engaged in a different form of abuse, he didn't use magic to do it (at least I don't remember him putting something in their drinks). Jonathan did. And, like Buffy said in B,B&B, that's evoking the great roofie spirit. The purpose of the spell was to make Jonathan the best at everything. 

From the transcript: Buffy: "I think that Jonathan may be doing something so that he's manipulating the world and we're all like his pawns." "All like his pawns" includes the twins. 

To me, this means if Jonathan wants to sleep with a woman, they really don't have the full ability to say no. I call that date rape. Jane Espenson, at least in this episode, thinks there's nothing wrong w/ it and that it makes for a funny joke. My argument is buttressed by the twins leaving once the spell is broken. They once again had control of their own actions. 

I did say that Jonathan was the hero of the episode, which was another reason that I hated Suyperstar. He suffers no consequences. I don't give him credit for giving up this made-up world where people are getting hurt, Karen and Tara at the very least (and who knows how many others who may have been hurt or even killed), by the monster that he created. Again, compare this to B,B,&B. Giles' is the hero there, not Xander. Giles breaks the spell. 

[VCRTracking]

If he had suffered consequences learned his lesson he wouldn't have been hanging out with Warren and Andrew in season 6. It shows he still has a lot of issues.

The main storyline of season 4 isn't the Initiative but the Scoobies being on separate paths and all it took was a few words from Spike to break them up.

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I think the problem with season four is that we're not very invested in the story-arc and that there is very little arc-building.

 

The initiative in itself is just kind of flat and once Maggie Walsh dies, there is not much perspective or dimension to them anymore. Adam meanwhile could have been more interesting, his character is similar to Illyria on Angel, very existential, trying to navigate what it means to be human or demon, but he's kept so isolated from everything that is going on and doesn't really have a scene partner to carry a scene with, even as they shove Spike into his scenes later. Adam needed a character to have a dynamic with, and neither the writers' attempts to pair him up with Spike or Riley ever really worked the way the Mayor and Faith or the vampire trio of season two worked.

 

And then of course, Adam is introduced in episode 13/14, but instead of building his character the next few episodes are all almost stand-alones, the Faith two-parter, Superstar, the sex episode, Oz's return. If Adam is in them at all, he is very little in them and that's just not the way to build up a story-arc and a villain. 

 

One minor thing that also always bothers me about season four is that I never warmed up to Giles's apartment being the meeting place of the Scoobies. I think the library was much missed in season four and it was a good thing that they rectified that in season five by introducing the Magic Box.

You're quite right, Adam would have been more interesting if he'd had someone to play off, he started to have that a little with Spike but alone or with some nameless random vamp. 

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

Well, now you've seen my Superstar  rant so I won't have to repeat it in that episode thread. Comparing Jonathan to Barney Stinson does him no favors. Plus, while Barney engaged in a different form of abuse, he didn't use magic to do it (at least I don't remember him putting something in their drinks). Jonathan did. And, like Buffy said in B,B&B, that's evoking the great roofie spirit. The purpose of the spell was to make Jonathan the best at everything. 

From the transcript: Buffy: "I think that Jonathan may be doing something so that he's manipulating the world and we're all like his pawns." "All like his pawns" includes the twins. 

To me, this means if Jonathan wants to sleep with a woman, they really don't have the full ability to say no. I call that date rape. Jane Espenson, at least in this episode, thinks there's nothing wrong w/ it and that it makes for a funny joke. My argument is buttressed by the twins leaving once the spell is broken. They once again had control of their own actions. 

I did say that Jonathan was the hero of the episode, which was another reason that I hated Suyperstar. He suffers no consequences. I don't give him credit for giving up this made-up world where people are getting hurt, Karen and Tara at the very least (and who knows how many others who may have been hurt or even killed), by the monster that he created. Again, compare this to B,B,&B. Giles' is the hero there, not Xander. Giles breaks the spell. 

Barney didn't abuse anyone, he was just a womaniser (although I doubt his behaviour would be allowed on screen in the MeToo era) . Jonathan didn't slip anything into their drinks, that's my point, with Xander in The Zeppo he tried to do something to CC which was immoral but ended up doing it to everyone else instead. In fairness Xander was moral enough to turn down both Buffy and Willow when they threw themselves at him, hence why I think he is the hero. Jonathan by contrast makes himself better, like pretending to be an astronaut etc and that's why the girls find him attractive. When they find out the truth they leave of their own accord. So he's a liar but not a roofie rapist. 

 You're right about Karen and Tara but you have to weigh that against all the times super Jonathan has saved the day?  

15 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

If he had suffered consequences learned his lesson he wouldn't have been hanging out with Warren and Andrew in season 6. It shows he still has a lot of issues.

The main storyline of season 4 isn't the Initiative but the Scoobies being on separate paths and all it took was a few words from Spike to break them up.

Well put, with the loss of 3 main characters and their new circumstances the gang are out of alignment, in s5 they're back in thanks to Tara and Anya and there's only one problem left... 

[Loandbehold]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Barney didn't abuse anyone, he was just a womaniser (although I doubt his behaviour would be allowed on screen in the MeToo era) . Jonathan didn't slip anything into their drinks, that's my point, with Xander in The Zeppo he tried to do something to CC which was immoral but ended up doing it to everyone else instead. In fairness Xander was moral enough to turn down both Buffy and Willow when they threw themselves at him, hence why I think he is the hero. Jonathan by contrast makes himself better, like pretending to be an astronaut etc and that's why the girls find him attractive. When they find out the truth they leave of their own accord. So he's a liar but not a roofie rapist. 

The lying and elaborate steps Barney took to get women to sleep with him is more than just being a womanizer. He convinced Robin that he was going to propose to Patrice in order to get her to accept his proposal. It's not physical abuse, it's mental and emotional, but it is abusive behavior all the same.

As for Jonathan, again, going by what the scripts said in both B,B&B and Superstar, using magic to make yourself irresistible IS akin to putting something in their drinks. It takes their ability to say "no" away from them. To me, that is date rape. To that end, his spell worked like he wanted it to - he was able to sleep with two women who otherwise never would have done so had they had the ability to turn him down.

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You're right about Karen and Tara but you have to weigh that against all the times super Jonathan has saved the day?

So, if Jonathan had personally attacked Karen and Tara, that would be excused b/c he saved more people than he injured? And, let's put that aside, and put aside that it's quite likely that the monster had attacked others, had Buffy not confronted him at the Scooby meeting, would Jonathan have tried to kill the monster he created, or would he have let the monster continue attacking others? We know that he he tried to convince Buffy that the monster was harmless when Karen was first injured. Given that, my answer is that he would have continued doing nothing about the monster so the spell would remain intact.

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

The lying and elaborate steps Barney took to get women to sleep with him is more than just being a womanizer. He convinced Robin that he was going to propose to Patrice in order to get her to accept his proposal. It's not physical abuse, it's mental and emotional, but it is abusive behavior all the same.

As for Jonathan, again, going by what the scripts said in both B,B&B and Superstar, using magic to make yourself irresistible IS akin to putting something in their drinks. It takes their ability to say "no" away from them. To me, that is date rape. To that end, his spell worked like he wanted it to - he was able to sleep with two women who otherwise never would have done so had they had the ability to turn him down.

So, if Jonathan had personally attacked Karen and Tara, that would be excused b/c he saved more people than he injured? And, let's put that aside, and put aside that it's quite likely that the monster had attacked others, had Buffy not confronted him at the Scooby meeting, would Jonathan have tried to kill the monster he created, or would he have let the monster continue attacking others? We know that he he tried to convince Buffy that the monster was harmless when Karen was first injured. Given that, my answer is that he would have continued doing nothing about the monster so the spell would remain intact.

He was manipulative, not abusive. Jonathon doesn't make himself magically irresistible, he's just great and these girls want him because he is so great, to have talent, wealth, power or even some form of notoriety makes you more attractive (or as the Lynx ad puts it, "Nothing beats astronaut"), you think of Mythbusters doing their laws of attraction special;

Doesn't work the other way around, Kim Kardashian could work at a sewage plant and guys would still want her just as badly (as long as she took a bath when she came home).

[Loandbehold]

I'm going by the dialog in the episode. Buffy tells the Scoobies that Jonathan did a spell that made everyone his pawns. She tells Jonathan that people were upset b/c they didn't like being in his sock puppet theatre. This means that people didn't have autonomy. Jonathan took that away from them. If you have sex w/ someone who is either not capable of, or who has their resistance lowered to the point that they can't really consent, then you have committed rape. Jonathan's spell did just that. Now, Jane Espenson thought this was funny. I don't agree.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 3:47 PM, Loandbehold said:

I'm going by the dialog in the episode. Buffy tells the Scoobies that Jonathan did a spell that made everyone his pawns. She tells Jonathan that people were upset b/c they didn't like being in his sock puppet theatre. This means that people didn't have autonomy. Jonathan took that away from them. If you have sex w/ someone who is either not capable of, or who has their resistance lowered to the point that they can't really consent, then you have committed rape. Jonathan's spell did just that. Now, Jane Espenson thought this was funny. I don't agree.

Thinking about it you are right, because Jonathan also changes everyone's memories as well as making himself brilliant, so yes he's just like Willow with Tara. No one seems to pay much for their actions in this regard on the show, I think Faith apologises to Riley in the comics and Tara eventually takes Will back?

[Halting Hex]

Coming across Loandbehold's comment about his "rant" here in the regular thread for Superstar has led me to do another resurrection on Sarah's original essay (via Wayback, as with other similar threads).  Alas, some of the screenshots she uses for illustrating the "fashion" disasters aren't showing up for me, but let me at least share the banner image with y'all.

Charming, isn't he?

I agree with too much of what Sarah writes to quote extensively, but let's quote one particularly acute analysis:

Quote

"WHO ARE YOU" Eliza Dushku's adaptation to Sarah Michelle Gellar's Buffiness is spot-on immediately; Gellar takes a few beats to catch up, but her Faithiness is fantastic too. Some of the shit "Who Are You" brings up gets resolved a little neatly for my taste, like Riley having sex with Baith ("Fuffy"? I forget which one was supposed to be which), but it's nice to see the Mayor again.

(Except that's the wrong episode; Groener was in This Year's Girl, not 4.16.)

As much as I have to hold my grade for the episode because of my usual complaint (the one JonW81 pointed out on TWoP back when, that Fuffy is way too focused on Joss's new toys [Tara, Riley, Chipped!Spike] instead of the Scoobies she actually hates), Sarah is correct in pointing up the converse, that all of Fuffy's actual antics get wasted.  The Fuffley sex is made only about Faith's redemption and Buffy's subsequent jealousy; the part where Riley was virtually raped-via-deceit and the whole issue of his saying "I love you" to "Buffy" for the first time, only to find it's not her, that got dropped.  Faith's attempt to wreck Tara's self-confidence apparently flops completely, and it's not as if Spike becomes all-Buffy obsessed because Fuffy cockteases him here.

Spoiler

Latter idiocy like giving Spike verbatim recall of the conversation in 7.19 aside.

He isn't even motivated to gain any revenge for the humiliation; if Adam hadn't literally showed up in Spike's home, he would never have betrayed the group.  Waste of (IMO misdirected) effort, again.

I wouldn't go so far to say that the show has "an obsession" with Buffy and Riley's sex life; they're shown being sexual only three times in ten episodes and one of those isn't even really Buffy.  But I do see the argument that 

Quote

the attempt on the show's part to seem "mature" is a bit strained

Indeed, I wonder if this isn't also part of the problem with

Spoiler

Season Sux, that Joss has confused "being explicit" with being mature.  His bragging about how the house-sex in Smashed is an "Au revoir, M. Metaphor!", as Joss says to Seth Green on the Wild at Heart commentary, might be indicative that he felt stifled by network censorship, regardless of whether keeping the show's references to Spike's inability to satisfy Drusilla (What's My Line Part 2 and on), Coach Marin being gang-raped to death (Go Fish), Spike's necrophilia with the shopkeeper's corpse (Lovers Walk) and Riley's apparent interest (for whatever reason) in Wonder!Jonathan's penis size within WB-acceptable limits might not have been a good thing for the series, all in all.

Ain't nothing wrong with a subtle touch, Genius.  Just saying.)