Season Six: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes...

[WendyCR72]

And, to add, @Chattygal, right or wrong, good or bad, Goren and Eames had 5 prior seasons to establish their chemistry as partners and friends. Thus their episodes, especially when going personal (which seemed to happen a bit too often in S6/S7 but had some great episodes from that), seemed to have more "oomph" to them because they had the history to draw from, something that Logan and Wheeler didn't, fair or not. I'm not at all saying Wheeler wouldn't care if Logan was in danger or vice versa, but the scope and depth would be naturally less than with G/E. It is what it is.

[Donny Ketchum]

I happen to not really give a damn about Goren or Eames (even though both did admittedly have notable moments and lines), so that's probably where my frustration originates.  That and, as I've said multiple times, my boredom with Goren cracking every single case and Eames not getting her chance to shine even once.

 

I like the Logan team episodes (with Barek or Wheeler) because they took down the perps as a pair.  So it's frustrating to not see anyone who likes their episodes.  Frustrating and gross.

[Maherjunkie]

Put me in the She sits alone at lunch category because I love the new intros, Warren Leight, and Season 6, and Dt.Bishop.  They all brought life to the show for me.  Season 5 was the dregs.

[WendyCR72]

I'm sure there are those who will agree with you, @Maherjunkie, so no need to sit all alone. As I've said, we like what we like...

[rujasu]

I like the Logan team episodes (with Barek or Wheeler) because they took down the perps as a pair.  So it's frustrating to not see anyone who likes their episodes.  Frustrating and gross.

 

I definitely prefer the Logan episodes, but it doesn't really get to me that people talk more about the Goren eps.  The show was always designed around Goren, obviously he's the character that people are more likely to remember.

[WendyCR72]

I will say I LOVED Logan on the Mothership. I didn't hate him on CI, not at all. But he seemed more at home on original recipe L&O. But at least CI felt like CI with both Goren and Logan. I think USA was trying for quirky (as with their other shows at the time) for CI with Jeff Goldblum, and to me, it didn't work. It didn't feel like CI then.

 

(I do know he was in a 2007 cop series on either ABC or NBC called Raines that can be bought on Amazon, and I saw some to see if it worked better for him, and I think it did, since the whole premise of that show [he sees the dead victims, who help him solve their deaths] was sort of offbeat. But CI was always meant to play it straight.)

[WendyCR72]

I've heard of 'Night Mother, which is a very sad, disturbing play, but I had no idea the writer of that play (and one involved in so many impressive projects as listed) wrote for CI. I agree that she was either a fan and/or friends with someone BTS or in the cast!

Pretty impressive find, Chattygal.

[Eolivet]

I thought "Albatross" was a pretty decent story (and I loved Donna Murphy).

 

"Albatross" was on ion on Wednesday night, and I noticed something I wasn't sure I'd seen before: is it meant to imply that George Pagolis (Xander Berkeley) rapes his wife (played by Donna Murphy -- the Councilwoman, her name escapes me)? When she comes home early and he grabs her wrists and throws her on the bed... They smash cut to commercial, and Murphy's character never mentions it or even alludes to it, but I wondered if that was what we were supposed to think.

 

Great acting in that episode. Berkeley can always be counted on for a solid performance, and Tony-winner Murphy was always a joy to watch on any Law & Order.

[Maherjunkie]

We are left to wonder but I assume she knees in the safe deposit box like Rose Nylund would.

[Eolivet]

Excellent. That's my head canon now as well. And "safe deposit box" may be the best euphemism I've heard in a while.

[Maherjunkie]

When in doubt turn to Betty White.

[WendyCR72]

"Albatross" was on ion on Wednesday night, and I noticed something I wasn't sure I'd seen before: is it meant to imply that George Pagolis (Xander Berkeley) rapes his wife (played by Donna Murphy -- the Councilwoman, her name escapes me)?

 

Funny how that never occurred to me, but if that is what happened, it's no wonder the wife let the husband be killed. I liked "Albatross", too, because we again see Eames having a bit more of a role here with her admiration of the Councilwoman and her maybe being not as objective because of who the person of interest (the wife) is.

 

And that's not at all meant to condemn Eames, if it's what it reads like. I'm saying that I like seeing her as human and not just a cop.

[Maherjunkie]

She acted like a fangirl!  Christ, remember the LAW.

[WendyCR72]

How was she acting like a fangirl? It was consistent: In S1, in "The Third Horseman", Eames was arguing abortion as a choice with Goren and Carver. So, right there, she seemed to believe in women's rights. She clearly likely feels the need to prove herself as a woman in a man's profession, and I think that was what she was doing here. Perhaps she saw the same thing with the Councilwoman.

 

And it's not like Eames obstructed justice or impeded the case. She snarked but did her job, and had her idol crash down at the end.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Finally, I'm just gonna say it.  I love how everyone here will totally, happily mention Goren/Eames episodes, but completely discount Logan/Wheeler ones.  Blech.

 

Really? I know that I posted more about the Logan episodes here--"Maltese Cross" and "World's Fair" being amongst my favorites, especially since I got some of my vintage Mike Logan along with this temper that he's known for; not to mention his never will not be a 'oh snap!" line to Meena's would be fiancé going to a strip club, when he was whining about Meena not being pure, with "Was it a pure one?"

 

And my love for "Country Crossover" with Logan's sarcastic shock about finding drugs in a recording studio.  Other than not enjoying that blowhard Ross, and how all of a sudden, Goren is also hated by the brass and is a cop they wish they could get rid of (where the hell that came from I don't know), I've enjoyed this season as well; well, other than thinking Ncholson was miscast, but I've already said my piece on that and won't repeat it.

 

Blasters is also another favorite.

[WendyCR72]

And my love for "Country Crossover" with Logan's sarcastic shock about finding drugs in a recording studio.  Other than not enjoying that blowhard Ross, and how all of a sudden, Goren is also hated by the brass and is a cop they wish they could get rid of (where the hell that came from I don't know)

 

At least we got the "Whackjob (Goren) and Mutt (Logan)" line out of that.

[Donny Ketchum]

Really? I know that I posted more about the Logan episodes here--"Maltese Cross" and "World's Fair" being amongst my favorites, especially since I got some of my vintage Mike Logan along with this temper that he's known for; not to mention his never will not be a 'oh snap!" line to Meena's would be fiancé going to a strip club, when he was whining about Meena not being pure, with "Was it a pure one?"

And, see, that's my other problem.  Even if someone does mention their episodes, they acknowledge one detective on that team, not two.

 

Those are two of my favorites, too, though. :)

[Donny Ketchum]

Yeah. But after those...auspicious beginnings...I thought "Privileged" was decent. Doris Roberts did fine in a more dramatic role.

Was this the episode ending with her crying that she wanted her life back?  After Mr. Korman from Scrubs was arrested?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Donny Ketchum

[WendyCR72]

Was this episode ending with her crying that she wanted her life back?  After Mr. Korman from Scrubs was arrested?

 

One and the same, Donny Ketchum. I was surprised to see Richard Kind in the role as I associated him only with comedy, but he did a decent job. (I'm also surprised to see via the IMDB that he also had a guest role on another franchise show, L&O: SVU. Go figure.)

[WendyCR72]

Chattygal, be sure to leave your thoughts on "Endgame" as I will be curious to see what you think! (And my God, that marathon is A LOT of Simpsons!)

[Maherjunkie]

What I was referring to Wendy, was when she said "Now she'll go down-you happy now?"  Bobby is not the reason she did a dumb thing; you're an ethical cop, she broke the law!

[WendyCR72]

What I was referring to Wendy, was when she said "Now she'll go down-you happy now?"  Bobby is not the reason she did a dumb thing; you're an ethical cop, she broke the law!

 

In the end, though, she did her job. If she hadn't, then yeah, I'd have an issue. Same with Bobby vis a vis his fixation over Nicole. She's a psychopathic criminal, yet Bobby seemed sort of fascinated by her and the puzzles she wrought (maybe until the later years). What it showed me, for both situations, is that G/E were fallible and had blind spots.

 

In the end, though, they still overcame them and did what needed to be done.

 

On another note, I was bored and watched "Rocket Man" on Netflix last night. And for all of the darker tones that started with this season, I had forgotten the oh, so brief glimpse of some levity. After G/E questioned a suspect, they went into the observation room to talk to Ross. Bobby told Ross the suspect was obsessive and angry, to which Ross wryly responded, "So am I. So are you." As G/E are leaving the observation room, Bobby sort of lightly asks Alex, "Am I angry? (You notice he doesn't deny obsessive, hee!)" and Alex just smiles as they walk out.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Not to turn this into a Goren v. Eames debate as to which one broke the law, bent the law, didn't/did do their job, y'all recall in the episode with the diluting of the meds, where the pharmacist did that so he and wifey would be pillars in the community/church? That one husband who did actually give his wife, who was terminal and in pain, an overdose. Bobby didn't arrest him, though he had the proof, despite? inspite? putting it as a hypothetical to Carver about what should be done?

 

It's a standard thing on all cop shows. The leads all eventually do some law bending/breaking. Well, Except for MY Mike Logan, that is.

[Maherjunkie]

Yeah but there was no doubt Nicole was a murderer and he intervened when she committed a crime.  Elaine did too and there was a reason to press charges, not pout your lips and blame your partner.

[WendyCR72]

Oh, yeah, if none of the cops bent things, there'd be no show 99.9% of the time, GHScorpiosRule!  And while maybe Mike never bent the law, his hotheaded self certainly made him a "favorite" with the brass. But then, the brass needed to unclench more often than not, so it's all good.  :-P

[WendyCR72]

Yeah but there was no doubt Nicole was a murderer and he intervened when she committed a crime.  Elaine did too and there was a reason to press charges, not pout your lips and blame your partner.

 

I saw it as Alex venting. Is it immature? Sure. But it happens. And Bobby didn't seem to care in the long run. Seemed like a molehill.

[Maherjunkie]

Yes, though there should have been no reason to ask "Are we ok?"

[WendyCR72]

Yes, though there should have been no reason to ask "Are we ok?"

 

True, but Bobby was on the slide with his self esteem by then, so maybe he needed the reassurance for his own sake?

 

As an aside, it confounds me how a character who started out so cocky, smart, and confident in himself ended up the emotional basket case with low self esteem as he did. And while therapy helped him later, I can't believe Bobby seemed to lose all faith in himself. That's sad when you think about it.

[Maherjunkie]

We all go through a rough patch.  He came through to possibly bone Alex in the end.

[Eolivet]

Ugh, I'd forgotten how much I disliked the personal stories, and then WGN aired "The War at Home" a couple days ago. It's a good case -- interesting, and one of the rare instances that Fran Drescher seems like an actress instead of a caricature -- but the Bobby's mother subplot just drags the whole thing down for me. I realize this was around the time when serial dramas were making a huge comeback (Desperate Housewives, LOST, even 24 had personal elements) but I liked that Law & Orders were mainly about the cases. It was a totally unnecessary element that I think added nothing to the series.

[WendyCR72]

The thing is, it went through S7, too, Eolivet, lest we EVER forget "Frame". But I'll concede that that also had Captain Ross accusing Bobby of being a killer, so it wasn't all personal, and that saved it for me. Same for "Endgame", with the serial killing. Roy Scheider was incredibly creepy.

 

But back to "The War At Home", I didn't care for it just because it was so damned depressing. And as an aside, I was sort of shocked to spy Fran Drescher in the episode.

 

And while CI did get mired down, I hate to say it, but SVU's issues make CI look like the Mothership in terms of personal to case ratio.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I didn't like this new romance for Mike, either. The only thing that rang true was Mike's attitude--in that look into Holly's death. The one thing I will say about the mothership, and all the detectives that came and went, then never made the crude jokes about asking a fellow cop if he had been "banging" the victim if they wanted to know the truth--when it looked liked a suicide, but wanted to make sure. So I don't blame Mike for throwing a punch.

 

But the rest? yeah. Very contrived. But I did like the line about Mike telling Holly about Lennie--how he had trouble believing Lennie was gone.

[WendyCR72]

I did enjoy the Mike/Lennie mention. It's cool that CI did acknowledge that relationship on occasion.

[rujasu]

Yes.  Of course, it's funny how they mentioned that a few times but the words "Max Greevey" were never uttered once.  Wonder why that is? 

No, I don't actually wonder why that is.

[WendyCR72]

Ah, rujasu, I take it you're referring to the rumor/fact that Noth and Dzundza didn't exactly hit it off?

[GHScorpiosRule]

Ah, rujasu, I take it you're referring to the rumor/fact that Noth and Dzundza didn't exactly hit it off?

 

'Tis not a rumor. Most of the actors in season one's dvd extras talk about it. How they were always at loggerheads.

[WendyCR72]

'Tis not a rumor. Most of the actors in season one's dvd extras talk about it. How they were always at loggerheads.

 

Wow. From what I recall, Noth and Sorvino didn't get along much better, and Orbach was basically loved by everybody. And someone said here that in S9, I guess Jeff Goldblum and Saffron Burrows also disliked one another. But I have no idea where that came from or if it's true...

 

...and I'm veering far from S6 now. LOL! If we want to discuss feuds, there's the Misc thread we can chat in about that.  :-)

[rujasu]

Ah, rujasu, I take it you're referring to the rumor/fact that Noth and Dzundza didn't exactly hit it off?

 

That's one reason.  Another reason is that the audience actually remembers Lenny Briscoe.  How many people watching actually know who Max Greevey was?

[Eolivet]

.I thought "Privileged" was decent. Doris Roberts did fine in a more dramatic role.

 

I hadn't seen it in a while, but I just watched "Privileged," and I must respectfully disagree, WendyCR72. I thought Doris Roberts was manic and over-the-top -- bordering on caricature. Richard Kind wasn't great either. I was sort of annoyed at both of them showing up, because one of my favorite things about Law & Orders was seeing all the Broadway or unknown New York actors that hadn't yet been discovered/swallowed up by the Hollywood machine. I always loved discovering some fantastic new actor in a particularly memorable guest role. Taking guest stars from mainstream sitcoms makes this episode a little less special for me.

[WendyCR72]

I hadn't seen it in a while, but I just watched "Privileged," and I must respectfully disagree, WendyCR72. I thought Doris Roberts was manic and over-the-top -- bordering on caricature. Richard Kind wasn't great either. I was sort of annoyed at both of them showing up, because one of my favorite things about Law & Orders was seeing all the Broadway or unknown New York actors that hadn't yet been discovered/swallowed up by the Hollywood machine. I always loved discovering some fantastic new actor in a particularly memorable guest role. Taking guest stars from mainstream sitcoms makes this episode a little less special for me.

 

That's okay, Eolivet. And I'll grant you Ms. Roberts at the very end, with the "What happened to my life?" cheesefest. But I thought she was okay before then. As for Richard Kind, same thing. The end with him sniveling sort of upped the cheese, but I thought he was fine before the denouement!

 

RK was actually also decent in a serio-comedic role on Scrubs ages back.

[Eolivet]

Ah, I've never seen RK in anything but as the hapless Paul on "Spin City." He irritated the heck out of me then and now.

 

I really do love this show, but this was not their strongest season. I know I'd seen "Brother's Keeper" before, but had very little memory of it. Still, I thought the whole "God can't heal a developmentally delayed teenager" line was painfully telegraphed. It was pretty easy to guess that Dr. Corliss had some kind of developmentally delayed teenager in his personal life and didn't just fly off the handle for no reason. The show was only able to treat it like a huge revelation by making the detectives conveniently dumb. Early season Goren would've picked up on it immediately. Clearly, he was distracted by strung out President Grant from Scandal!

[WendyCR72]

Early season Goren would've picked up on it immediately. Clearly, he was distracted by strung out President Grant from Scandal!

 

Ha! Too funny. Yet sadly true, Eolivet. I do think Early Bobby would have been more observant, but with his druggie homeless (in S6, anyway!) older brother and his schizophrenic dying mom AND the whole killer papa deal, I can understand why he was preoccupied!

[Donny Ketchum]

Leave it to "Country Crossover" to remind us of one other facet of CI.  As vile and horrible as many of the perps are, occasionally, we'll meet one or two who are otherwise good, decent people who made a mistake, or just got into a bad situation and handled it all wrong, like the couple Logan and Wheeler busted at the end of the episode.  Neither one seemed particularly evil or horrible.  Just got wrapped up in quite a mess (of their own making, granted) and chose the wrong way to go about it, but otherwise didn't seem so bad as people (though obviously, they still were rightly hauled off).  YMMV, of course.

 

I can't remember, though, if there were other perps who were also mostly decent, but also simply made a mistake or two.

[WendyCR72]

Leave it to "Country Crossover" to remind us of one other facet of CI.  As vile and horrible as many of the perps are, occasionally, we'll meet one or two who are otherwise good, decent people who made a mistake, or just got into a bad situation and handled it all wrong, like the couple Logan and Wheeler busted at the end of the episode.  Neither one seemed particularly evil or horrible.  Just got wrapped up in quite a mess (of their own making, granted) and chose the wrong way to go about it, but otherwise didn't seem so bad as people (though obviously, they still were rightly hauled off).  YMMV, of course.

 

I can't remember, though, if there were other perps who were also mostly decent, but also simply made a mistake or two.

 

I think maybe that pharmacist in S2's "Malignant" was supposed to be seen as simply getting over his head (he promised a substantial donation to his church but lack of business meant less money, and his wife wouldn't let him cut back, so he diluted the cancer drugs.), but the nature of what he did just left me cold. I felt more for the poor widower who assisted his wife's suicide - indirectly because of those bad drugs not treating her cancer - than I ever did Mr. Halliwell.

[WendyCR72]

I always thought S6 is when total misery set in. But I had forgotten there were a handful of nice and/or funny scenes. In "Blind Spot", Ross and Eames were observing Goren in an interrogation. After it was done and Goren joined them, Ross left, but not before saying to Eames, "What I said." After he goes, Goren looks at Eames who conspiratorially tells Bobby, "I'm supposed to keep an eye on you." And instead of getting mad or huffy, Bobby sort of shrugs and says, "Oh. Well, let me know if I can help you." Then Eames just smiles.

 

It was a nice scene between them before all hell broke loose.

 

I know I said this prior, but I never understood Ross' beef with Goren before he had even met the man.

[Maherjunkie]

I guess it was like when the new teacher comes and the last teacher warns her about the troublesome students.

[WendyCR72]

I guess it was like when the new teacher comes and the last teacher warns her about the troublesome students.

 

But the last "teacher" was Deakins, and from all I ever saw, he liked Goren, so if Ross was given a heads up, I doubt it was from him.

[WendyCR72]

Oh, "Siren Call". Depressing from beginning to end. Not that "Blind Spot" before it was a picnic...

[Donny Ketchum]

Given how strong a woman Eames had proven to be up to that point, I'm scratching my head as to why she needed therapy after the whole Jo/"Sebastian" mess.  She looked like she'd have been fine without it.

[WendyCR72]

Given how strong a woman Eames had proven to be up to that point, I'm scratching my head as to why she needed therapy after the whole Jo/"Sebastian" mess.  She looked like she'd have been fine without it.

 

I got it. She was physically tortured, not to mention mentally tortured in hearing the other woman behind an opposite wall being killed. (She told Goren about the screams at the hospital.) That would be enough to weaken even the strongest person, knowing someone was being killed and not being able to do a damned thing to stop it, on top of fighting for your own survival.