S01.E03: First Class

[baldryanr]

3 hours ago, Lois Sandborne said:

Wasn't that episode in like season 2? Maybe the first time we saw Freddy? He ended up getting Martin's point and giving Freddy the "cool" toy. I just don't think unrealistic or mismatched expectations or disappointment in who Freddy was is where his and Frasier's relations with each other ended, and it's hard for me to buy into or enjoy the idea that for some reason 20 or 30 years later Freddy is this resentful and hostile. I don't expect to change anyone else's mind, but it doesn't make sense to me, and it's making it really hard for me to accept this version of the character.

Well, the problem is the series ended before Freddy really hit his rebellious teenage years.  Yes, when he was a child he was pretty much what you'd expect Frasier and Niles were, but it's not like we saw him heading off to college as David 1.0 only to have him morph into what we have in this series.

Now, if he got into Harvard then he should have been a relatively high achiever at whatever fancy school he went to, so he couldn't have rocked the boat too much.  That, or being the son of the famous Frasier Crane was enough to get him in.  Being a legacy child of a famous alum is the best possible thing to have on your college application.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Lois Sandborne said:

Wasn't that episode in like season 2? Maybe the first time we saw Freddy? He ended up getting Martin's point and giving Freddy the "cool" toy. I just don't think unrealistic or mismatched expectations or disappointment in who Freddy was is where his and Frasier's relations with each other ended, and it's hard for me to buy into or enjoy the idea that for some reason 20 or 30 years later Freddy is this resentful and hostile. I don't expect to change anyone else's mind, but it doesn't make sense to me, and it's making it really hard for me to accept this version of the character.

For me, it’s not just those moments that make it believable. It’s that combined with his tendency to make insultingly sarcastic comments and him living away from Freddy. I love Frasier as a character but he was often a judgmental ass to everyone. He loved Roz, Martin and Daphne but I don’t think he ever stopped looking down on the for certain traits. I worked because they matched that energy, would push back at him equally and they saw each other everyday. Based on who Frasier his a person, I have no trouble believing that he continually made snide comments about Freddy’s choices which wasn’t balanced by more genuine moments the older Freddy got. 

I’d like it if at some point the show addresses how Freddy feels about Frasier living in Seattle and Chicago for most of his life. 

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Lois Sandborne said:

Wasn't that episode in like season 2? Maybe the first time we saw Freddy? He ended up getting Martin's point and giving Freddy the "cool" toy. I just don't think unrealistic or mismatched expectations or disappointment in who Freddy was is where his and Frasier's relations with each other ended, and it's hard for me to buy into or enjoy the idea that for some reason 20 or 30 years later Freddy is this resentful and hostile. I don't expect to change anyone else's mind, but it doesn't make sense to me, and it's making it really hard for me to accept this version of the character.

I'm with you on this issue.  First of all, if Freddy was not going to become who his father wanted him to be, he would either never have agreed to go to Harvard in the first place, or his grades would have suffered in HS and he never would have gotten into the school.  If we had seen that part of adolescence where people make those kinds of changes and decisions this would have likely been what happened.  And the Freddy we saw up until the end of the show did not seem to be going down the path of being the apple falling that far away from the tree.  

How many people actually drop out of Harvard to become firemen?  Probably no one.  And that's what makes it unrealistic for me.  Someone dropping out of Harvard would still be an intellectual wunderkind of the kind that might start their own business or have some other kind of amazing talent to pursue in their own way without the education.  Either that or they never would have gone to Harvard and would have insisted on going to a lesser school just because the social environment was less pressured and snobby and more to their liking.  They wouldn't go to Harvard, and drop out to choose to become a rank and file fireman.  And even if they did, they would likely quickly ascend to high levels of management in the fire department.  Water seeks its own level.  

Also, if they were putting forth a Freddy that was rebelling against his father's snobbery, he would likely have at some point realized that dropping out of Harvard and becoming a fireman was just that - a function of adolescent rebellion and not HIM to be a fireman and would have found himself in some sort of medium-happy school with a medium-happy career goal.  

We also shouldn't forget that he lived with Lilith, who herself had an influence on him.  So he had two parents who would have shaped and molded him.  Where they get this thing about him identifying so much with his grandfather is unrealistic, especially given that we barely saw him acknowledge his grandfather at all on the original series.

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

For me, it’s not just those moments that make it believable. It’s that combined with his tendency to make insultingly sarcastic comments and him living away from Freddy. I love Frasier as a character but he was often a judgmental ass to everyone. He loved Roz, Martin and Daphne but I don’t think he ever stopped looking down on the for certain traits. I worked because they matched that energy, would push back at him equally and they saw each other everyday. Based on who Frasier his a person, I have no trouble believing that he continually made snide comments about Freddy’s choices which wasn’t balanced by more genuine moments the older Freddy got. 

Right, but first of all I don't know if I believe that Frasier would have been so judgmental of Freddy to make him turn on him in such a negative fashion, but that's just my opinion.  I personally think Frasier was at his snobbiest when he was paired with Niles.  On his own he wasn't that bad. 

And are we also supposed to believe that Freddy is just as hostile toward his mother and that she also put him down in a similar fashion?  He had two parents and lived with Lilith so what was their relationship like?  I feel like this character was not thought out enough or there is going to have to be a lot of rewriting history or creating a negative relationship between him and Lilith to make it make sense.  I don't think he would have such a negative attitude about going to Harvard and all the other stuff if his mother offered him positive encouragement.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I feel like this character was not thought out enough or there is going to have to be a lot of rewriting history

Like maybe:
Given how much money Frasier seems to have to throw around (how many million$ to buy that apartment building in Boston?) he might have paid for a very large renovation or new wing to get Freddy into Harvard. That could explain why Freddy left. He might have been neither prepared for nor suited to life as a Harvard student.

 

[Irlandesa]

10 hours ago, Yeah No said:

First of all, if Freddy was not going to become who his father wanted him to be, he would either never have agreed to go to Harvard in the first place, or his grades would have suffered in HS and he never would have gotten into the school.

Not necessarily. The only information we have right now are the facts that he quit, not the whys. 

I don't assume quitting Harvard was an act of rebellion, even if it might feel that way to Frasier.  Getting into Harvard is about brains, effort, and often privilege.  Just because Freddy's a fireman doesn't mean he's not smart or wasn't a good student.  

For many people, going off to college is the first time they're away from their parents for an extended period of time.  They start to explore who they are outside of parental influence or preconceived notions about who they're supposed to be. 

I think Freddy did everything he was asked to do, got to college and then something happened that put him on the path of being a fireman.  I doubt it was a rebellion.  He has likely been doing it for 10+ years.  That's a career, not a rebellion.  And not everyone who drops out of Harvard is Bill Gates.  They're good students, smart but just like anyone else.

As for his relationship with Lilith, I imagine we'll find out, but I don't think he has to have the same feelings about her as he does about his dad.  She was the everyday parent, and I'm assuming she's still close by.  She might have accepted the change.  Or grew to accept it.  Or pretended to accept it in a competition with Frasier who clearly didn't. 

 

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I think Freddy did everything he was asked to do, got to college and then something happened that put him on the path of being a fireman.  I doubt it was a rebellion.  He has likely been doing it for 10+ years.  That's a career, not a rebellion.

Good points.
Maybe there was a dorm fire involved.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Not necessarily. The only information we have right now are the facts that he quit, not the whys. 

I don't assume quitting Harvard was an act of rebellion, even if it might feel that way to Frasier.  Getting into Harvard is about brains, effort, and often privilege.  Just because Freddy's a fireman doesn't mean he's not smart or wasn't a good student.  

For many people, going off to college is the first time they're away from their parents for an extended period of time.  They start to explore who they are outside of parental influence or preconceived notions about who they're supposed to be. 

I think Freddy did everything he was asked to do, got to college and then something happened that put him on the path of being a fireman.  I doubt it was a rebellion.  He has likely been doing it for 10+ years.  That's a career, not a rebellion.  And not everyone who drops out of Harvard is Bill Gates.  They're good students, smart but just like anyone else.

As for his relationship with Lilith, I imagine we'll find out, but I don't think he has to have the same feelings about her as he does about his dad.  She was the everyday parent, and I'm assuming she's still close by.  She might have accepted the change.  Or grew to accept it.  Or pretended to accept it in a competition with Frasier who clearly didn't. 

 

The show can make Freddy's choices seem plausible but it's still not going to feel realistic to me for all the reasons I've already given above.  I'm often able to buy into what a show is trying to sell me but not in this case even if they wrap it up in a package similar to what you came up with in this post. 

The way they have made Freddy so negative with his father is what is making his choice feel like rebellion to me, not a true choice.  That and the fact that he's chosen to do just something about as far away from what his father would have wanted him to do as he could get, and which just happens to be the kind of thing that would irk his father the most.  Apples can fall a ways from a tree, but this is too far away for me to find believable.  It feels heavy handed, and not in the kind of tongue-in-cheek way that makes for good comedy. 

I could buy into Frasier and Niles having a father like Martin even though that seemed like a stretch, because first of all their mother was quite different.  It was obvious that they were putting on airs and being pretentious to convince themselves and the world that they were more like their mother, not their father, who they saw as lower class.  They didn't want the world to think they had any lower class in them, hence the pretention.  It was an overcompensation and It seemed plausible, and that was the joke of the show.  Kind of like what I said in an earlier post about them being a bit like Hyacinth in "Keeping up Appearances".  It made for great comedy.  Martin was like their Onslow, their "dirty little family secret" that mortified them.  And despite that, their relationship with Martin was nowhere near as negative as this one between Frasier and Freddy.  What does their negative relationship make for?  I don't know, except for a downer of a father-son relationship that needs therapy, not a springboard for good comedy.

And I've known people who picked a career out of rebellion only to realize decades later that they were just trying to get back at a parent who pressured them too much, and it wasn't really what they would have wanted to do if they had not been so motivated, just like I've known people who picked careers because they were trying to impress or please a parent.  So it's not something that doesn't happen. 

I just would think that if you had parents like Frasier and Lilith, even if you didn't want to go in the direction they wanted you to, the odds are far more that you would pick something somewhere in-between and not on the opposite end of the spectrum.  The choice feels too much like one done in reaction to one's parents, not because it was a true calling for me to just accept it face value or because they attempt to wrap it up neatly so as to make it seem more plausible.

If Freddy had a mother like Lilith and a father like Martin I would buy it that his true calling might be as a firefighter.  I posted previously that I know of a similar case in my own life.  A good friend's son declined trust fund money earmarked for his college education to go into construction.  His father has the kind of social background and pedigree Frasier could only dream of having, but his mother came from a blue collar family background.  That is a far more plausible and believable situation for me.

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Yeah No
Hit send too soon.

[Irlandesa]

6 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

The way they have made Freddy so negative with his father is what is making his choice feel like rebellion to me, not a true choice.

Freddie probably dropped out of Harvard when he was 20, give or take a year.

It's now about 15 years later and Fraiser is still making comments about Freddie's choice.  I think that's a pretty good reason why Freddie has a negative reaction.  I don't see rebellion as a motivator, I see him just being sick of the comments. 

(I looked up the actor to see if he was cast to somewhat align with Freddie's birthdate.  He was. I also discovered he went to Harvard.)

[Yeah No]

41 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Freddie probably dropped out of Harvard when he was 20, give or take a year.

It's now about 15 years later and Fraiser is still making comments about Freddie's choice.  I think that's a pretty good reason why Freddie has a negative reaction.  I don't see rebellion as a motivator, I see him just being sick of the comments. 

(I looked up the actor to see if he was cast to somewhat align with Freddie's birthdate.  He was. I also discovered he went to Harvard.)

Well you have your theory and I have mine. 🙂  I am basing mine on what I have seen and learned of in my experience.  It would have even made more sense to me if they had made Freddy go into acting.  That's something you can see someone go into that comes from a true calling and talent, and not entirely on the opposite end of the spectrum for someone with a Harvard education.  And if he was successful at it what would his father have to object to about it?  If he really wanted to be a fireman there are plenty of ways to do that on a volunteer basis and still be able to pursue other career choices.  They didn't have to make him choose something his father wouldn't approve of at all.  I don't see the point of it because I can't see it making for good comedy (it hasn't so far).  I'm thinking the show might intend to make them gradually reconcile and meet somewhere in the middle.  Freddy might realize he has more of his father in him than he was willing to admit, and Frasier might be more willing to accept his son's true ambitions, whatever they turn out to be.  While that might turn out OK, I don't see the comedy in it, at least not yet.

[shapeshifter]

21 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

(I looked up the actor to see if he was cast to somewhat align with Freddie's birthdate.  He was. I also discovered he went to Harvard.)

Wow. 
And he didn’t graduate either: 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Cutmore-Scott

Coincidence? Inspiration? Weirdly specific casting call?

Or did he graduate?

Edited October 29, 2023 by shapeshifter

[baldryanr]

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

And despite that, their relationship with Martin was nowhere near as negative as this one between Frasier and Freddy. 

Frasier and Martin had a very negative relationship when the show started, they just improved it more quickly.  Martin was a bitter jerk and Frasier hadn't been in touch very much after Hester died.  Frasier was even ready to pull the plug and kick Martin out before the end of the second episode, but Martin put his foot down.  Plus let's not forget the two would have killed each other if Daphne hadn't been there as a buffer.

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

Frasier and Martin had a very negative relationship when the show started, they just improved it more quickly.  Martin was a bitter jerk and Frasier hadn't been in touch very much after Hester died.  Frasier was even ready to pull the plug and kick Martin out before the end of the second episode, but Martin put his foot down.  Plus let's not forget the two would have killed each other if Daphne hadn't been there as a buffer.

True, but even so I never felt the level of vitriol from son to father as we're seeing now.  I sensed more exasperation between the two in the original series than anything else.  Perhaps it's a matter of perception, but I feel that for whatever reason the actor playing Freddy is taking his negativity toward his father to a very exaggerated degree.  It doesn't feel comedic like it did on "Frasier".  I feel that it goes over the line from comedy to just painful and hard to watch.  If you would have asked me all those years ago about Frasier and his father's relationship I would not have said the same thing at this point.  I saw the humor in it with Martin and Frasier and somehow even early on knew the two of them loved each other deep down in spite of everything, and that their relationship was salvageable, but that may be thanks to the way the two actors played their roles, or their lines or a bit of both.  And even more, I really CARED that they reconciled.  Here I don't really care at all. 

And I don't care how closely this actor's real background resembles his on-screen one, I am not feeling any comedy in the way he relates to his father whatsoever or any real love for him deep down.  To this point all I sense is hostility, period.  And that also takes away from it for me, and puts me off to the character.  I'm hoping that in time that changes, but I can only comment on what I've seen so far. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Yeah No
Caffeine didn't kick in yet, LOL.

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Frasier was even ready to pull the plug and kick Martin out before the end of the second episode, but Martin put his foot down.  Plus let's not forget the two would have killed each other if Daphne hadn't been there as a buffer.

Yep.  And they'd already been living together a while by the time the original Frasier started.  Frasier just moved back to Boston.

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Perhaps it's a matter of perception, but I feel that for whatever reason the actor playing Freddy is taking his negativity toward his father to a very exaggerated degree.  It doesn't feel comedic like it did on "Frasier". 

Maybe.  But I definitely thought some moments between Martin and his sons were deeply sad.  Some exasperation, yes, but there was also Martin feeling like a burden/rejected and wanting to move back out that wasn't comedy.  

 And in this instance, Frasier basically bought out Freddy's roommate and forced his son to move in with him. 

[paigow]

On 10/28/2023 at 2:47 PM, Irlandesa said:

Maybe.  But I definitely thought some moments between Martin and his sons were deeply sad.  Some exasperation, yes, but there was also Martin feeling like a burden/rejected and wanting to move back out that wasn't comedy.  

Dancing Santa & Girlfriend Hillbilly Sherry highlighted the snobbery of Niles & Frasier 

[myrtlelittle]

On 10/28/2023 at 3:38 AM, Irlandesa said:

Not necessarily. The only information we have right now are the facts that he quit, not the whys. 

I don't assume quitting Harvard was an act of rebellion, even if it might feel that way to Frasier.  Getting into Harvard is about brains, effort, and often privilege.  Just because Freddy's a fireman doesn't mean he's not smart or wasn't a good student.  

For many people, going off to college is the first time they're away from their parents for an extended period of time.  They start to explore who they are outside of parental influence or preconceived notions about who they're supposed to be. 

I think Freddy did everything he was asked to do, got to college and then something happened that put him on the path of being a fireman.  I doubt it was a rebellion.  He has likely been doing it for 10+ years.  That's a career, not a rebellion.  And not everyone who drops out of Harvard is Bill Gates.  They're good students, smart but just like anyone else.

As for his relationship with Lilith, I imagine we'll find out, but I don't think he has to have the same feelings about her as he does about his dad. On https://ca.papersowl.com/write-my-research-paper I develop a research paper. She was the everyday parent, and I'm assuming she's still close by.  She might have accepted the change.  Or grew to accept it.  Or pretended to accept it in a competition with Frasier who clearly didn't. 

 

There might be more to Freddy's story than just a natural career progression.

I think that people do, of course, change and evolve during their college years, and it's entirely plausible that Freddy discovered his passion for firefighting during that time. However, the fact that he left Harvard, an institution that often opens doors to various opportunities, does raise questions.

It's possible that Freddy just faced challenges or personal struggles that led him to reevaluate his path. It might not be a straightforward act of rebellion, but rather a complex series of events that shaped his choices. Sometimes, life doesn't follow the linear trajectory we expect...