Mya Stone August 4, 2014 Share August 4, 2014 Sunnydale High School is haunted by the ghosts of a former student and teacher who reenact their tragic romance through the bodies of the school's current inhabitants. Confession time: I love this episode. Love it. I love the angst, I love Giles' willful ignorance that the ghost most definitely isn't Jenny, I love the role-reversal of Buffy and Angel when they're possessed, I love Angel's disgusted reaction to kissing Buffy, I love Buffy's hopeful "Angel..." after they kiss while being possessed, and I especially love the ridiculousness of Spike standing up from his wheelchair as the final shot. Oh, and I'm a sucker for the title's song namesake. This scene just tickles me: Spike: [Angelus is furiously washing himself] You might want to let up. They say when you've drawn blood, you've exfoliated. Angelus: What do you know about it? I'm the one who was friggin' violated. You didn't have this thing in you. Drusilla: What was it? A demon? Angelus: Love! Drusilla: Poor Angel. 4 Link to comment
Dianthus August 5, 2014 Share August 5, 2014 I love the song too, and irt goes back to an earlier discussion about the importance of music on BtVS and AtS. One thing we see in this episode is that it is women, not men, who usually pay for sexual misconduct. Buffy decides that fault for their respective tragedies lies entirely with her and James. Meanwhile, the episode suggests that true blame lies elsewhere (on the adults, Angel and Grace, who took advantage of them). Then there's the icky Oedipal mess that is Angelus, Dru and Spike. Spike in his (supposedly) helpless, wheelchair-bound state, is cast in the role of child, with Dru and Angelus as his worthless parents. Buffy does seem to be making the first step toward forgiving herself for the return of Angelus. Buffy: "I still...part of me just doesn't understand why she would forgive him." Giles: "Does it matter?" Buffy: "I guess not." At the end of the episode, we rejoin Spike, Angelus, and Dru. Unlike Buffy, Angelus has had no revelations from the experience with Grace and James. He refuses to take Spike on the hunt, and Spike is once again cast in the role of child, left behind by his parents b/c he'll be too much of a burden. There are more parallels drawn between Spike and Buffy. At the beginning of the episode, Willow tells Buffy she should try to have fun. At the end, Angelus tells Spike the same thing (sarcastically). Buffy and Spike are both portrayed as children wronged or abandoned by the adults they depend upon (and both can list Angelus as one of the perpetrators). At the end of the episode, they are both liberated (Spike from his wheelchair, Buffy from her crippling guilt) and starting fresh. There are many shots of Spike's face in the half-light. He's one complicated vampire, and it foreshadows his upcoming alliance with the good guys. Spike in half-light will become a very familiar sight as the series continues and his "evil" becomes more and more ambiguous. 2 Link to comment
Joe Hellandback June 24, 2018 Share June 24, 2018 (edited) On 04/08/2014 at 8:03 PM, Mya Stone said: Confession time: I love this episode. Love it. I love the angst, I love Giles' willful ignorance that the ghost most definitely isn't Jenny, I love the role-reversal of Buffy and Angel when they're possessed, I love Angel's disgusted reaction to kissing Buffy, I love Buffy's hopeful "Angel..." after they kiss while being possessed, and I especially love the ridiculousness of Spike standing up from his wheelchair as the final shot. Oh, and I'm a sucker for the title's song namesake. This scene just tickles me: Spike: [Angelus is furiously washing himself] You might want to let up. They say when you've drawn blood, you've exfoliated. Angelus: What do you know about it? I'm the one who was friggin' violated. You didn't have this thing in you. Drusilla: What was it? A demon? Angelus: Love! Drusilla: Poor Angel. Fun fact, the song's anachronistic, it wasn't published until later but this just might be part of Buffy's vision, she associates it with the period. I never thought Spike standing up was ridiculous, I thought it was jaw dropping. On 05/08/2014 at 1:34 AM, Dianthus said: I love the song too, and irt goes back to an earlier discussion about the importance of music on BtVS and AtS. One thing we see in this episode is that it is women, not men, who usually pay for sexual misconduct. Buffy decides that fault for their respective tragedies lies entirely with her and James. Meanwhile, the episode suggests that true blame lies elsewhere (on the adults, Angel and Grace, who took advantage of them). Then there's the icky Oedipal mess that is Angelus, Dru and Spike. Spike in his (supposedly) helpless, wheelchair-bound state, is cast in the role of child, with Dru and Angelus as his worthless parents. Buffy does seem to be making the first step toward forgiving herself for the return of Angelus. Buffy: "I still...part of me just doesn't understand why she would forgive him." Giles: "Does it matter?" Buffy: "I guess not." At the end of the episode, we rejoin Spike, Angelus, and Dru. Unlike Buffy, Angelus has had no revelations from the experience with Grace and James. He refuses to take Spike on the hunt, and Spike is once again cast in the role of child, left behind by his parents b/c he'll be too much of a burden. There are more parallels drawn between Spike and Buffy. At the beginning of the episode, Willow tells Buffy she should try to have fun. At the end, Angelus tells Spike the same thing (sarcastically). Buffy and Spike are both portrayed as children wronged or abandoned by the adults they depend upon (and both can list Angelus as one of the perpetrators). At the end of the episode, they are both liberated (Spike from his wheelchair, Buffy from her crippling guilt) and starting fresh. There are many shots of Spike's face in the half-light. He's one complicated vampire, and it foreshadows his upcoming alliance with the good guys. Spike in half-light will become a very familiar sight as the series continues and his "evil" becomes more and more ambiguous. Yeah the fang gang are an interesting dynamic, without Darla they're out of kilter. The Good; Lovely romance, lovely analogy of Buffy and Angel, Gile's mourning Jenny and a great tribute to the power of forgiveness. Wonderful scenes with Spike, Angelus and Dru too The Bad; Fairly little, a good ep although not a great one. Some pretty dodgy zombie makeup to be truthful Best line; Buffy; "Something weird's going on!" Xander; "Isn't that our school motto?" Character death; The teacher, another SDH faculty member bites the dust Shot; Angel(us) by Buffy Women good/men bad; Buffy's anger is focused at James, an obvious substitute for Angel. Cordelia is outraged at the idea of the Sadie Hawkins' dance, not a huge fan of gender equality, obviously. Questions and observations; Whenever a gun appears in Buffy it's never good. Always nice to see Shakespeare paraphrased in a US teen show. What happens to the janitor who shot the teacher? Presumably without Giles' testimony and no gun the charges against him are dropped. We have the first confirmation that Snyder and the police are in on the conspiracy regarding Sunnydale and first mention of the Mayor. Spike getting out of the wheelchair at the end speaks of great things to come. 6/10 good ep without being brilliant, Edited June 24, 2018 by Joe Hellandback Link to comment
Halting Hex June 24, 2018 Share June 24, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: I never thought Spike standing up was ridiculous, I thought it was jaw dropping. Well, it's certainly meant to be dramatic, but I do get a chuckle out of noticing that, as he stands, James gets his foot caught in the wheelchair. Could have gone straight to the blooper reel, but James saves the take by getting free and kicking the chair away, which was scripted. (I thought it might have been a glorious bit of improv, but no.) Can't really say I'm so thrilled with the "girls, forgive your abuser!" message, especially on an episode where SMG was recording an anti-abuse PSA that aired with it. Reportedly the network was so pissed off that they made Marti Spoiler write Beauty and the Beasts as penance. But, of course, a large part of this is about Spoiler calming the 'shippers, reassuring them that Buffy and Angel are getting back together, that it's okay for her to forgive him, and who really cares about Jenny or all the other dead people? "To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's, it's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it." goes on the small pile of "oh, FUCK YOU, Giles" lines, IMO, right between "No, no, [Angel]'s good now" and "I'm almost certain not, but to be fair, I wasn't listening." Feh, I say. Feh. On the plus side, we get our first look at Angie Hart at the Bronze (she'll go on to be the most common non-Dingoes performer) and Marti gives us this wonderful bit of recap/exposition (remember, it had been two months since Killed by Death): Quote WILLOW: Maybe you need to be impulsive. BUFFY (incredulous): Impulsive? Do you remember my ex-boyfriend, the vampire? I slept with him, he lost his soul; now my boyfriend's gone forever and the demon that wears his face is killing my friends. My next impulsive decision will involve my choice of dentures. Brings the new viewers up to speed, sets up Buffy's problem for the episode as well as the longer arc, and flows like anything. (As opposed to the clunky "round-robin" exposition I complained about in Surprise, for example.) This sort of thing is harder than you think. Well done, Marti. There's a reason I can quote it from memory. Still, on the whole, soppy and overrated, Chris Gorham or no Chris Gorham. Even though we do get to see Cordelia casting spells ("I shall TOTALLY confront and expel all evil!"), along with this classic: Quote WILLOW (re the ghosts): The only solution is the final solution. XANDER: Nuke the school? (considers) I like it. Edited June 24, 2018 by Halting Hex Link to comment
Halting Hex November 23, 2018 Share November 23, 2018 This episode is also our introduction to Mr. Miller, although there was a scene with him shot for Innocence (and thus James Lurie got a credit there), but that was cut, as Joss discusses on that episode's commentary track. Thinking about it, I wonder if he's married to Mrs. Miller from Out of Mind, Out of Sight? I mean, it's a quite common surname, but still. Is this what Snyder's on about when he's talking to Giles about "students" getting distracted by the sight of pretty girls in When She Was Bad? Maybe the Millers have been snogging up a storm in the faculty room and Snyder's trying to be sure Giles doesn't follow their example… And we also see that Buffy is taking American History here. But didn't she take it last year, in The Puppet Show/Nightmares? Did she fail the course? After all, Cordelia was taking it with her last year, but none of the Scoobs are there to see "Don't walk away from me, bitch!" on the blackboard this time. Although it is a different teacher. Spoiler And of course, having failed a class might make Buffy's admission to Northwestern somewhat problematic, I'll allow. But as I covered in the Choices thread, that's a whole other mess, anyways. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback November 24, 2018 Share November 24, 2018 On 23/11/2018 at 5:08 AM, Halting Hex said: This episode is also our introduction to Mr. Miller, although there was a scene with him shot for Innocence (and thus James Lurie got a credit there), but that was cut, as Joss discusses on that episode's commentary track. Thinking about it, I wonder if he's married to Mrs. Miller from Out of Mind, Out of Sight? I mean, it's a quite common surname, but still. Is this what Snyder's on about when he's talking to Giles about "students" getting distracted by the sight of pretty girls in When She Was Bad? Maybe the Millers have been snogging up a storm in the faculty room and Snyder's trying to be sure Giles doesn't follow their example… And we also see that Buffy is taking American History here. But didn't she take it last year, in The Puppet Show/Nightmares? Did she fail the course? After all, Cordelia was taking it with her last year, but none of the Scoobs are there to see "Don't walk away from me, bitch!" on the blackboard this time. Although it is a different teacher. Hide contents And of course, having failed a class might make Buffy's admission to Northwestern somewhat problematic, I'll allow. But as I covered in the Choices thread, that's a whole other mess, anyways. Thinking about it what exactly did Buffy take at UCSD? Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 19, 2018 Share December 19, 2018 Quote Xander: Fill me in then, 'cause I've read the book, seen the movie, and I'm still fuzzy about what's going on. Giles: It's Jenny. Buffy: What? Xander: You think she's the ghost? Giles: Well, don't you see? Well, she-she-she died here under tragic circumstances, a-a-and now she's trapped. Willow: But what about the gun? I mean, Angel didn't shoot Ms. Calendar. Giles: The gun is insignificant. It's the violence of the thing that matters. (goes back into his office) Buffy: I don't know. These fights these couples keep having, it's sort of... specific. Willow: She's right. It's a pattern that doesn't fit with the way Ms. Calendar died. Giles: (comes out of his office) Yes, well, I, uh, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, I, in fact I... well, I *encourage* you to, to always, uh, challenge me, uh, when you feel it's appropriate. You should never be cowed by authority. (starts back in, but comes back) Except, of course, in this instance, when I am clearly right and you are clearly wrong. (goes back in) Question: how does Giles know exactly where Jenny died? He had found Miss Calendar's body at his place, not on school property AFAIK. Yes, there were signs of a struggle/chase in Jenny's classroom and the school hallway, but that's hardly the irrefutable proof of Janna meeting her demise at SHS, I guess. We, the viewers, know it happened at school, but Giles and the rest? They weren't even there... It seems neither Passion, nor Killed by Death contain any indications the Scoobs knew Angelus murdered Miss Calender at Sunnydal High. Jenny could have died either in the schoolyard, a few blocks away or at Giles' apartment... Was there any significant clue to suggest it was SHS? Did Rupert and Jenny have a séance or whatever or do I miss something crucial here? 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex December 19, 2018 Share December 19, 2018 Well, there were signs of violence in Jenny's classroom, but also continuing into the hallway (the broken door, the overturned custodian's cart), and then the trail…stops. Indicating that "this is where [Jenny] gets off", perhaps. But I agree it's not conclusive. I guess Giles can put the pieces together later, when he learns that Jenny's car was still at school, and perhaps gets a forensic report (or has Willow go hacking to get a hold of it) that indicates that Jenny didn't have dirt or gravel or grass on the soles of her shoes, so presumably she didn't run all the way to Giles's flat. So unless Angel gave Jenny a ride in the Angel-mobile and only killed her after that, it's reasonable he did the damage before he moved the corpse. But JMO. 2 Link to comment
Halting Hex June 4, 2021 Share June 4, 2021 (edited) Reactors have been good about noticing that Giles is holding on to Jenny's rose quartz throughout Act II, which I had frankly missed. That's really sad; he's literally holding on to the only piece of her he has left. That said, Giles does do a good job of saving Janitor George's life, by preventing him from following in James's music-room suicide footsteps. I mean, it doesn't do anything for poor Mrs. Frank and the likely murder conviction still means George is metaphorically boned (and perhaps literally boned as well, depending on what sort of "special friends" he'll need become with "Roscoe the weight lifter"), but still. Better penned than dead, I suppose. (Plus, I'm still hoping George falls through a wormhole to land in 1880s Deadwood S.D., where he changes his name to "Sol Starr" and lives profitably ever after.) ****************************** Xander gets praise for referencing Shakespeare in this episode ("The quality of mercy is not Buffy") but I just realized that this is from The Merchant of Venice, the same play Mrs. Miller was discussing with him (and Willow and Cordelia) in Out of Mind, Out of Sight last year. I guess he was paying attention, after all. Good for you, Xander! Of course, the play being what it is, Willow probably gave him several earfuls about it, after class. (And that's not even counting the part where Cordy annoys Willow by being all #TeamPortia!) ***************************** Watching this and Passion in close order, I notice that both times when Drusilla gets her psychic flash, Spike is all "what is it, Pet?" whereas Angel is just digging on the experience. (Spike also rather interrogates her in Halloween and Innocence.) I suppose this shows that Spike is rather prosaic whereas Angel, a creative type, doesn't need Dru's input so much. Or that Spike's become dependent on Dru's psychic moments to spice up his life, which is rather hard cheese, given that Dru's proving nightly how much she prefers "Daddy". After all, Dru's been Spike's girl for pretty much a century, at least. In contrast, if the visions burn out her brain, I feel Angel would be all "whatever" and go find the next passing Buffy to amuse himself with. Spoiler To be fair, perhaps Angel understands that Dru's "insights" tend to the frothy; the best info he gets from her (about the obelisk two episodes from now) it's revealed she simply read in the paper. Indeed, at first Angel is skeptical of that bit of "news" ("You can see all that?"). Perhaps he's caught on that Dru is more sizzle than steak, most times. Edited June 4, 2021 by Halting Hex 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher June 13, 2021 Share June 13, 2021 On 6/4/2021 at 5:14 AM, Halting Hex said: That said, Giles does do a good job of saving Janitor George's life, by preventing him from following in James's music-room suicide footsteps. I mean, it doesn't do anything for poor Mrs. Frank The very next day, everyone in the SHS acts like nothing's happened... Were the teachers' murders some sort of weekly occurence under Principal Snyder? Link to comment
Halting Hex October 22, 2021 Share October 22, 2021 Quote CORDELIA: I hope you guys weren't planning on going to this Sadie Hawkins dance tonight - because I'm totally organizing a boycott. Cordy, dear…it's a little late to organize a boycott. The girls already bought their tickets. Get on the ball, slacker! Indeed, the script makes it seem as if this is the first time CC's heard about the dance. Which is pretty strange, since she's a junior and they have it every year. And are you telling me that Ms. Social Status doesn't know about upcoming school events? That she can't read a poster? Please. I think we need to stop wondering where Oz ran off to (is he chasing UFOs in the desert? Studying to become a rabbi? Picking up side money acting in gay porn?) and start checking Cordelia for a concussion. Okay, obviously this is just hack writing from Marti. It's much more important to get a cheap joke at Cordelia's expense (she doesn't like feminism! Ha-ha!) than to consider what it means for her and Xander that she hasn't asked him. How does he feel about being snubbed? Especially after she was all "you're so obsessed with Buffy that you're neglecting me!" last episode. Nah, who needs character development, right? Link to comment
lembergwatcher October 23, 2021 Share October 23, 2021 23 hours ago, Halting Hex said: I think we need to stop wondering where Oz ran off to (is he chasing UFOs in the desert? Studying to become a rabbi? Picking up side money acting in gay porn?) I think he was having fun with a legion of groupies. There aren't too many options really. Acting in a gay porn? Starring as who?.. A piece of wood? Link to comment
lembergwatcher October 24, 2021 Share October 24, 2021 (edited) On 10/23/2021 at 12:58 AM, Halting Hex said: Nah, who needs character development, right? I guess Team Whedon never liked any character development... Edited October 24, 2021 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
mmecorday June 27, 2022 Share June 27, 2022 I do like the episode, although now I associate the song with that freakin' Alexa ad that's on ALL.THE.TIME! But the snakes in the cafeteria scene? Good old fashioned nightmare fuel. "Snakes...why'd it have to be snakes?" Link to comment
Halting Hex June 27, 2022 Share June 27, 2022 32 minutes ago, mmecorday said: I do like the episode, although now I associate the song with that freakin' Alexa ad that's on ALL.THE.TIME! Lol, I'm the reverse. Every time I see the Alexa ad. I'm expecting them to go all corpse-faced and scream "GET OUT!" at Buffy. 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex June 27, 2022 Share June 27, 2022 On 12/19/2018 at 1:44 PM, Halting Hex said: I guess Giles can put the pieces together later, when he learns that Jenny's car was still at school, and perhaps gets a forensic report (or has Willow go hacking to get a hold of it) that indicates that Jenny didn't have dirt or gravel or grass on the soles of her shoes, so presumably she didn't run all the way to Giles's flat. So unless Angel gave Jenny a ride in the Angel-mobile and only killed her after that, it's reasonable he did the damage before he moved the corpse. But wait! For all we know, perhaps Angel just stole Jenny's car and drove her to Giles's in the VW Beetle. That bastard! Not only does he kill Jenny, but even her classic car isn't safe! Although, since it's unlikely that Drusilla walked to the Magic Store, walked back to the Factory (she has to tell Angel that Jenny's trying to restore his soul ; learning that is the whole point of her visit to the shop) and then Angel walked to the school, presumably Angel's been driving Spike's DeSoto, or some car of his own, around all night. But since no strange car was found on campus, some vamp must have driven it back. Which would mean that a) while Angel was taunting, chasing, and killing Jenny, Drusilla was waiting in the car, likely "going crazy" from boredom, and b) since Angel drove Jenny's car for the rest of the night, Drusilla drove the vamps' own car home. Now that's a scary thought! (Remember, they don't have any minions, and Spike's in a wheelchair. It's Dru or nobody.) So I think the simpler solution is the previous one; Angel left Jenny's car on campus and that's how Giles knows Jenny was killed there. QED. Link to comment
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