TWD Women Who's the bigger threat: Walkers or Writers?

[Pete Martell]

Michonne had that clock put on her by the Richonne shippers, so i'm glad it's gone :) 

 

The show chose to heavily focus many of Michonne's scenes since the back half of season 4 on Rick and his kids.

 

The show chose to let the actors joke about or play up Richonne in the press and to have Hardwick do it on Talking Dead.

 

The show chose to sideline Michonne when Rick gets a major new storyline and love interest. 

 

I never really saw Richonne fans get upset when Michonne flirted with Daryl, or on the occasions she's had strong scenes with other characters (like her trying to keep Sasha in check). 

 

Are there some fans who see Michonne as just a part of Rick's family or story? Sure. 

 

Yet it's likely not any more than the amount of fans who saw Carol as mostly tied to Daryl and his story in season 3. And the show still chose to take the risk of breaking her away from his story for almost all of season 4, and giving her her own journey that Daryl was not a part of, and still hasn't been a part of.

 

If they were giving Michonne more of her own role in these episodes, then I'd feel more confident that they don't just see her as there for Rick's issues.

[Pete Martell]

I think this is where the perceptions diverge. The press, Production, the actors and actresses themselves can write/say/tweet/blog/etc. anything they wish, and I may read it, enjoy it, and even use it for post fodder - but when I'm watching the show, I totally divorce from the extraneous commentary. Because to me, it's not canon until it appears in the show. Particularly the actor/actress-stated backstories, because some past statements have given me the impression the performers come up with at least some of that on their own to fill in backstory gaps left (intentionally or unintentionally) by TPTB.

 

I would agree with this if not for the last episode, where Jessie was effectively established as a major force of storyline, where two of the show's main characters are focused on her safety, on plotting a murder to protect her.

 

Now that it's gotten to this point, then I think the heavy focus from the press and on Talking Dead is being backed up in the text. She has to be this important, for Carol and Rick to go as far as they're going, to go so far that they could easily be risking the lives of their entire group, Rick risking the lives of his son and baby daughter.

 

And that's where her lack of characterization rankles me more and more, because I just don't think there's any good reason why someone with that level of importance is such a cipher.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Pete Martell

[editorgrrl]

From Bitch magazine, February 19, 2015 (so no Jessie): Let's Talk About the Women of "The Walking Dead" Contains comic talk

Which medium is better for the ladies of The Walking Dead: the TV show or the comic? In other words, which one is less sexist?

Edited March 17, 2015 by editorgrrl

[Pete Martell]

I agree with some of it, but I tend to wonder how much of the show this person actually watched. 

 

Michonne wasn't speechless throughout season 3, and Carol wasn't deferring to men during season 3. 

 

Why did the author choose to ignore huge chunks of Carol's storyline? Is it because it's easier to just claim her story is all about men if you do that?

 

She teaches the children she's babysitting how to defend themselves, which she is harshly criticized for by Rick and Carl (once again, this is the eleven year-old boy that has more authority and privilege than any woman in the camp).

 

I haven't watched those episodes in a while, but did Rick really "harshly criticize her"? Did Carl? I remember Carl being uneasy, and she asked him to keep it from Rick. He told Rick, but I don't remember Rick being upset. It was the Karen/David fiasco that upset him.

 

Carl had no "authority" or "privilege" in the prison at that point. That was one of the main points of the story - Rick didn't want Carl to be anything but a child.

 

Up to the season five break, Carol is rapidly becoming one of the best characters on the show, her advancements blocked only by Rick, who disagrees with her decisions arbitrarily as a way of keeping her in her place.

 

Where was this in season 5? Was it when Rick thanked her and all but apologized? Is that how he kept her in her place? 

 

Over and over, critical essays about TV shows leave out basic details to make a broader point, and as a result, severely diminish themselves.

 

It's sad, because while claiming to be about supporting female characters, the article defines Carol by Rick far more than the show ever did.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Pete Martell

[RainOnToosdays]

I think this is where the perceptions diverge. The press, Production, the actors and actresses themselves can write/say/tweet/blog/etc. anything they wish, and I may read it, enjoy it, and even use it for post fodder - but when I'm watching the show, I totally divorce from the extraneous commentary. Because to me, it's not canon until it appears in the show. Particularly the actor/actress-stated backstories, because some past statements have given me the impression the performers come up with at least some of that on their own to fill in backstory gaps left (intentionally or unintentionally) by TPTB.

 

THAT. 

I go out of my way to avoid not reading or watching anything related to the show (except for this forum). I don't want to be spoiled but I also don't want my perceptions clouded by, as you say, "extraneous commentary" even if, or more aptly, especially if, it's coming from one of the actors themselves as they have personal motivations for spinning their character one way or the other. 

[ghoulina]

I haven't watched those episodes in a while, but did Rick really "harshly criticize her"? Did Carl? I remember Carl being uneasy, and she asked him to keep it from Rick. He told Rick, but I don't remember Rick being upset. It was the Karen/David fiasco that upset him.

 

No, you're remembering it absolutely correctly. Carl was uneasy, and he didn't want to keep things from his dad. So he didn't. But when he told his dad, he basically said he supported what Carol was doing and didn't want her to get in trouble for it. And Rick agreed to let her keep doing her thing. 

[kj4ever]

I would agree with this if not for the last episode, where Jessie was effectively established as a major force of storyline, where two of the show's main characters are focused on her safety, on plotting a murder to protect her.

 

Now that it's gotten to this point, then I think the heavy focus from the press and on Talking Dead is being backed up in the text. She has to be this important, for Carol and Rick to go as far as they're going, to go so far that they could easily be risking the lives of their entire group, Rick risking the lives of his son and baby daughter.

 

And that's where her lack of characterization rankles me more and more, because I just don't think there's any good reason why someone with that level of importance is such a cipher.

I don't think it would matter who it was.  Carol would stop any man from beating any woman and child. So would Rick.  Period.  She didn't come in and say "Oh Rick, the love of your life, the future Queen of Alexandria is getting her ass kicked by her husband and we must plot his murder right away!"  Jesus he has shared a few smiles with the woman and kissed her on the cheek for being nice.  it also seems Rick is attracted to pretty blondes, so hey, once the hubby is gone, why not? 

 

But back to the women, again, Carol is so not going to put up with crap like that going on when there is something she can do about it.  I thought MMB was absolutely brilliant in her scenes with Sam.  She was being all hard and cold and unfeeling, but she showed just a crack in that veneer when she figured out what was really going on.  It was awesome to see.

[BrokenRemote]

I don't think it would matter who it was.  Carol would stop any man from beating any woman and child. So would Rick.  Period.  She didn't come in and say "Oh Rick, the love of your life, the future Queen of Alexandria is getting her ass kicked by her husband and we must plot his murder right away!"  Jesus he has shared a few smiles with the woman and kissed her on the cheek for being nice.  it also seems Rick is attracted to pretty blondes, so hey, once the hubby is gone, why not? 

 

But back to the women, again, Carol is so not going to put up with crap like that going on when there is something she can do about it.  I thought MMB was absolutely brilliant in her scenes with Sam.  She was being all hard and cold and unfeeling, but she showed just a crack in that veneer when she figured out what was really going on.  It was awesome to see.

 

Not only that, but the scene where Carol tells Rick "you're going to have to kill him" is not 100% objectively, no doubt about it, Carol and Rick plotting a murder.  It's ambiguous, and we haven't even seen Rick's response to what she said yet.  He may tell her she's nuts and to keep her stupid theories to herself.  He may tell her to do it herself if it needs to be done.

 

I still read it as Carol basically saying "you know, it's inevitable that eventually this guy's going to have to die, because I know from experience you can't reform this type, and you as the only person with a gun on the inside and a job that would entail killing someone in defense of a woman or kid being put in grave danger, are probably going to wind up being the one to do it."

 

That could be wrong, but the scene, the unfinished conversation, the ambiguous wording (they could have had Carol say "you have to kill him") leaves it open to interpret.  So I think it's premature to say that Rick and Carol are plotting a murder. 

 

And yes, even if they are plotting a murder, it's not because Rick wants to bang this woman.  Carol would be saying the same thing if it was Reg abusing Deanna or Aaron abusing Eric.

 

I don't think it's fair to write off a storyline as sexist or demeaning to women when we don't even know where it's going to go.  Yes, there may be hints about where it might go.  They might be misdirection, for all we know. 

[kj4ever]

Not only that, but the scene where Carol tells Rick "you're going to have to kill him" is not 100% objectively, no doubt about it, Carol and Rick plotting a murder.  It's ambiguous, and we haven't even seen Rick's response to what she said yet.  He may tell her she's nuts and to keep her stupid theories to herself.  He may tell her to do it herself if it needs to be done.

 

I still read it as Carol basically saying "you know, it's inevitable that eventually this guy's going to have to die, because I know from experience you can't reform this type, and you as the only person with a gun on the inside and a job that would entail killing someone in defense of a woman or kid being put in grave danger, are probably going to wind up being the one to do it."

 

That could be wrong, but the scene, the unfinished conversation, the ambiguous wording (they could have had Carol say "you have to kill him") leaves it open to interpret.  So I think it's premature to say that Rick and Carol are plotting a murder. 

 

And yes, even if they are plotting a murder, it's not because Rick wants to bang this woman.  Carol would be saying the same thing if it was Reg abusing Deanna or Aaron abusing Eric.

 

I don't think it's fair to write off a storyline as sexist or demeaning to women when we don't even know where it's going to go.  Yes, there may be hints about where it might go.  They might be misdirection, for all we know. 

And before that she said "There's only one way this is going to go."  It could very well be taken that it is a warning, not a Godfather type order being sent from Carol.  Time will tell.

[BrokenRemote]

I also don't agree that because the show chose to show scenes where Michonne and Rick talk to each other a lot that they were blatantly advertising shipping.  I keep seeing people saying "OMG, she touched his hand, how much more proof do you need that they're in love?"  To me, that's just as likely proof that they're friends.  If the show chooses to focus on a friendship and it happens to be between a man and a woman, I think it makes less of a woman to assume the man could only be spending time with her because he wants to have sex with her.

I did see a bunch of articles (basically one interview, endlessly quoted into a zillion articles and turned into click-bait) where one EP--Gale Huth--said she "sees Michonne as the kind of partner Rick needs", and it was basically sensationalized like the "new Mrs. Grimes" headlines have been.   Every article I read was that quote, with the author of the article then talking about how fans wanted the two together.  It was the pop media that turned it into "Walking Dead EP Ships Richonne!", not TPTB.   Did she use the word "partner" to bait fans?  I don't know, because a lot of people also say Michonne and Rick are partners in that they're co-leaders of the group.  But it's pretty weak bait, even if she was baiting.

[kj4ever]

I also don't agree that because the show chose to show scenes where Michonne and Rick talk to each other a lot that they were blatantly advertising shipping.  I keep seeing people saying "OMG, she touched his hand, how much more proof do you need that they're in love?"  To me, that's just as likely proof that they're friends.  If the show chooses to focus on a friendship and it happens to be between a man and a woman, I think it makes less of a woman to assume the man could only be spending time with her because he wants to have sex with her.

I did see a bunch of articles (basically one interview, endlessly quoted into a zillion articles and turned into click-bait) where one EP--Gale Huth--said she "sees Michonne as the kind of partner Rick needs", and it was basically sensationalized like the "new Mrs. Grimes" headlines have been.   Every article I read was that quote, with the author of the article then talking about how fans wanted the two together.  It was the pop media that turned it into "Walking Dead EP Ships Richonne!", not TPTB.   Did she use the word "partner" to bait fans?  I don't know, because a lot of people also say Michonne and Rick are partners in that they're co-leaders of the group.  But it's pretty weak bait, even if she was baiting.

It definitely makes less of a woman to think that way, and that is an excellent point!  People act like she is NOTHING because she isn't with Rick and he might find someone else attractive.  I mean we seriously don't know what he thinks of Jessie, but I wouldn't blame him for finding her attractive because she is.

 

Maybe Rick doesn't find black chicks attractive.  Maybe Michonne doesn't dig skinny white dudes.  it doesn't make either one of them "less".  It just makes them real as we all have what we find attractive.

Edited March 17, 2015 by kj4ever

[festivus]

I also don't agree that because the show chose to show scenes where Michonne and Rick talk to each other a lot that they were blatantly advertising shipping.  I keep seeing people saying "OMG, she touched his hand, how much more proof do you need that they're in love?"  To me, that's just as likely proof that they're friends.  If the show chooses to focus on a friendship and it happens to be between a man and a woman, I think it makes less of a woman to assume the man could only be spending time with her because he wants to have sex with her.

 

Yep. I've never read their scenes as shipper bait. I've always seen them as friends and that Rick really respects her opinion. I hope this show is committed to showing a real friendship between a man and a woman without sex being brought into it. It benefits the story of both of the characters IMO.

[ghoulina]

And before that she said "There's only one way this is going to go."  It could very well be taken that it is a warning, not a Godfather type order being sent from Carol.  Time will tell.

 

Right. I saw it just as her saying - "You're not going to be able to just confront the dude about this man-to-man. It's going to be a problem. If we want to stop this, it's going to end up with someone dying". 

[NurseGiGi]

 

 

I hope Jessie really does get some sexy time with Rick so that the world can see Michonne has no fucks given about it.

That's a good point.  The shippers would go nuts about that.  I would like to see Michonne get some action, too.  She deserves it.  Hell, they all do.

[NurseGiGi]

 

 

But back to the women, again, Carol is so not going to put up with crap like that going on when there is something she can do about it.  I thought MMB was absolutely brilliant in her scenes with Sam.  She was being all hard and cold and unfeeling, but she showed just a crack in that veneer when she figured out what was really going on.  It was awesome to see.

I loved those scenes with Carol and Sam!  MMB played it just right and I could almost hear the "snap" when she realized what Sam was alluding to.  If Pete is, indeed, an abuser I don't see Carol putting up with that shit.

[Pete Martell]

I don't think it would matter who it was.  Carol would stop any man from beating any woman and child. So would Rick.  Period.  She didn't come in and say "Oh Rick, the love of your life, the future Queen of Alexandria is getting her ass kicked by her husband and we must plot his murder right away!"  Jesus he has shared a few smiles with the woman and kissed her on the cheek for being nice.  it also seems Rick is attracted to pretty blondes, so hey, once the hubby is gone, why not? 

 

Which is one of the reasons the story is so offputting to me. Hey, it's your new lady love...and she's being abused by her husband, so you've got an in! Never mind that she and her son are so traumatized and in so much danger that her husband has to die now. Time to get a leg over. 

 

If it didn't matter who it was they wouldn't have built up a romantic connection before starting in this part of the story. Since they have elevated her to that level of importance, I think the lack of characterization for her is baffling. 

That's a good point.  The shippers would go nuts about that.  I would like to see Michonne get some action, too.  She deserves it.  Hell, they all do.

 

I don't think seeing a battered woman pushed into a sexual relationship immediately after her husband dies is worth seeing a few shippers get upset. I'd venture to guess that a lot of fans would be put off by that type of storyline, because one of the most dangerous tropes out there is that all an abused woman needs is "the right man" to "cure" her or "make her whole."

It definitely makes less of a woman to think that way, and that is an excellent point!  People act like she is NOTHING because she isn't with Rick and he might find someone else attractive. 

 

I haven't seen any Michonne fans saying that. What some of us are questioning is if the show sees her as nothing if she isn't there for Rick's storyline. I would hope not, but I'd be much more reassured if she had more story or airtime of her own, and I'm not completely sure she will.

[mightysparrow]

I don't think there's a question about whether or not Rick finds Black chicks attractive since he spends most of the time he's with Michonne staring at her ass.  I do question why it's up to Rick.  Michonne isn't exactly a blushing violet so if she wanted Rick, she'd probably have him by now and he'd be very happy being had.  I don't think Michonne thinks of Rick 'that way' and I don't think she ever will.  We've seen Michonne flirt with Dary so we know what it looks like.  It's not like that with her and Rick.

 

I've said it before, but I'm happy that Jessie is on the scene so that Michonne can develop her own story apart from Rick and his kids. Maybe it is a reflection on how TWD views dark-skinned Black women or maybe they don't think the audience wouldn't accept the White male lead with a dark-skinned Black women.  It wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility and it wouldn't be the first time.  I don't care what the reason is, I'm just happy that he's got a 'pretty blonde' to suck the life out of and he can leave my favouriite character alone.  The minute Michonne decides she wants to get laid, I have no doubt the line will be around the block.

[Bass]

It was not shippers that brought out Ricohonne, it was the writers. They chose to hinge Michonne's development on Rick's and Carl, with a certain degree of closeness that can be misconstrued as some level of intimacy. But TWD writers are known for using tropes when writing for characters. But I recognized the Black Friend/Mammy/Black Weapon trope immediately in season 4 with Michonne. This particular trope has been used for so long in cinema that it has been ingrained in our collective consciousness that we tend to celebrate it as positive character development for an AA character in relation to the white character. People are so used to this depiction of AA female characters that they readily embrace it. The only way for the writers to rectify this is to give Michonne her OWN ARC SEPARATE FROM RICK, and her own love interest where she could showcase her feminine sensual side, and not just as Rick's wet blanket and weapon there to protect his kids.

[Bass]

As for Jessie, she is not a character in her own right, she is written to serve as a catalyst for Rick.

And if they do follow the comics, she wil be the sweet, innocent damsel in distress trope/spoils of war trope. The sweet innocent ray of light that the tortured warrior becomes smitten with her beauty and must save her from the evil tyrant. After the warrior vanquishes said tyrant, the beauty gives of herself to said warrior because SHE IS NOW A SPOIL OF WAR who is infatuated by said warrior and the warrior willingly complies.

This particular tropes sells millions of romance novels a year and is a very popular trope among the graphic novel genre as well with guys. This is why many viewers do not have a problem with Rick

a)killing Pete outright (because let's be honest the writers have not done a very good job showing why Pete is so extremely dangerous in order to contemplate straight-up murder)

b)Jessie sleeping with the man that killed her husband (because, remember, with this particular trope, that's Rick's reward and shes grateful. Plus, she's considered beautiful and sweet, and its Rick, so she gets a pass.)

c) Many viewers use Rick as an avatar and Rick getting the beautiful girl resonates with them. The same with viewers that relate and see themselves in Jessie, so her giving of herself to Rick resonates with them as well. Now these tropes are even much, much older and even harder to not be influenced by.

Now, I hope that the writers will prove me wrong regarding Jessie and Michonne. Heck, I desperately hope that they have some creative trick up their sleeve. But, I am not optimistic, already Michonne's dev is still trope driven, Jessie is nothing more than a plot device, Rick is in crazytown development wash and repeat, and Pete is your run of the mill cardboard cutout. If the writers repeat past history, the whole Pete/Jessie/Rick with some Michonne thrown in will just be another sordid cliche.

Edited March 23, 2015 by HalcyonDays
Tagging of potential comic spoiler

[kj4ever]

It was not shippers that brought out Ricohonne, it was the writers. They chose to hinge Michonne's development on Rick's and Carl, with a certain degree of closeness that can be misconstrued as some level of intimacy. But TWD writers are known for using tropes when writing for characters. But I recognized the Black Friend/Mammy/Black Weapon trope immediately in season 4 with Michonne. This particular trope has been used for so long in cinema that it has been ingrained in our collective consciousness that we tend to celebrate it as positive character development for an AA character in relation to the white character. People are so used to this depiction of AA female characters that they readily embrace it. The only way for the writers to rectify this is to give Michonne her OWN ARC SEPARATE FROM RICK, and her own love interest where she could showcase her feminine sensual side, and not just as Rick's wet blanket and weapon there to protect his kids.

I think Michonne has had some of the best writing out of all the women on the show, which is probably why she's a favorite of mine.  I don't get your point about season 4, she had tons of character development.   Her search for the governor, the reasons behind it....The medicine run and Daryl pretty much calling her on it.  That was all great stuff.  Really one could say that Rick and Carl were there to support her arc, not the other way around.  Rick not wanting to boink her in season 5 has nothing to do with her character or it's development.  Michonne really wins on this show all around compared to most females.

[kikismom]

c) Many viewers use Rick as an avatar and Rick getting the beautiful girl resonates with them. The same with viewers that relate and see themselves in Jessie, so her giving of herself to Rick resonates with them as well.

For many viewers, Michonne is an avatar.

The reaction to her storyline is often connected to viewers feelings about what they would want or do or say in the same circumstance.

 

But the strongly diverging interpretations from her most devoted fans illustrates a pitfall for the writers.

If Michonne bonds with Carl and Judith,that is referenced by many of her fans as a reason why Rick should have his love involvement with her. Equally as many say it is the Mammy stereotype.

If Michonne isn't seen bonding with Carl and Judith  that would relieve her of being classified as Mammy? Or be perceived as "he doesn't trust a black woman with his children".

If Michonne fights by his side, that is considered by many as a reason Michonne is the best person for Rick. It is also considered by many as Michonne relegated to the "black sidekick" cliche.

If Michonne has a romance with Rick, it would make many happy as a romance that was about two people regardless of race or background. Set against as many people who would say it was done so Michonne is just a cliche "jungle fever" figure.

If Michonne tries to call Rick out on a bad decision, then that proves to some her sincerity and loyalty. To some that is the character being pigeonholed into the "angry argumentative black woman" figure.

 

Whatever the writers do, half of Michonne fans will be upset, and attribute it to slotting a character into cliches because she's black.

Unless, Michonne gets a story disconnected from anyone else.

But then there will be anger that Michonne has been "sidelined" and isn't good enough to be part of an arc with the white guy lead. She's been pushed by the writers into her "script ghetto" because she couldn't possibly be part of the arc/action that involves the white (and Asian and Latino) characters.

[kj4ever]

For many viewers, Michonne is an avatar.

The reaction to her storyline is often connected to viewers feelings about what they would want or do or say in the same circumstance.

 

But the strongly diverging interpretations from her most devoted fans illustrates a pitfall for the writers.

If Michonne bonds with Carl and Judith,that is referenced by many of her fans as a reason why Rick should have his love involvement with her. Equally as many say it is the Mammy stereotype.

If Michonne isn't seen bonding with Carl and Judith  that would relieve her of being classified as Mammy? Or be perceived as "he doesn't trust a black woman with his children".

If Michonne fights by his side, that is considered by many as a reason Michonne is the best person for Rick. It is also considered by many as Michonne relegated to the "black sidekick" cliche.

If Michonne has a romance with Rick, it would make many happy as a romance that was about two people regardless of race or background. Set against as many people who would say it was done so Michonne is just a cliche "jungle fever" figure.

If Michonne tries to call Rick out on a bad decision, then that proves to some her sincerity and loyalty. To some that is the character being pigeonholed into the "angry argumentative black woman" figure.

 

Whatever the writers do, half of Michonne fans will be upset, and attribute it to slotting a character into cliches because she's black.

Unless, Michonne gets a story disconnected from anyone else.

But then there will be anger that Michonne has been "sidelined" and isn't good enough to be part of an arc with the white guy lead. She's been pushed by the writers into her "script ghetto" because she couldn't possibly be part of the arc/action that involves the white (and Asian and Latino) characters.

I wouldn't say whatever they do  1/2 will be upset because there are people like me that think Michonne is just an awesome character on a TV show and the reason for that has nothing to do with who she ends up screwing and/or not screwing.

[Pete Martell]

Whatever the writers do, half of Michonne fans will be upset, and attribute it to slotting a character into cliches because she's black.

Unless, Michonne gets a story disconnected from anyone else.

But then there will be anger that Michonne has been "sidelined" and isn't good enough to be part of an arc with the white guy lead. She's been pushed by the writers into her "script ghetto" because she couldn't possibly be part of the arc/action that involves the white (and Asian and Latino) characters.

 

I don't think there will be that much anger over this. I think people just want her to have a decent story. Right now they've basically made her a supporting player once her function (getting to Alexandria) was over, and now that Jessie is being pushed as the ideal for Rick and his children. Michonne is a strong character in her own right and there's a lot that can be done with her, especially since there have been several implications that Alexandria is not what she thought it would be, and she's trying to convince herself otherwise. RIght now many Michonne fans have no idea if the show feels she is inferior to Jessie (essentially a blank slate with blonde hair and a white face). A strong story for Michonne, with or without Rick, would assuage those fears.

 

I also don't see that half of fans will be upset and half won't. The talk here is always that most fans of a character don't have extreme reactions, and it's only some online who do. I'm not sure why there is an exception for Michonne fans. If the show could take the huge risks that they took with Carol in season 4, when "Caryl" was by far the most prominent ship on this show and when they knew that her fans were extremely protective of her, then there's no reason they can't do the same with Michonne. 

 

I also don't know if I agree that fans see Michonne as an avatar any more than any other character is. In many ways she's been just the opposite. We barely got inside her head for a season and a half, which led to endless fan criticisms that "all she did was snarl" (which was never true) and "she never talks" (which was never true). It's only been relatively recently that we've gotten more of her full spectrum as a character. If some fans project onto her, that's likely because she is a unique character who represents them in a way no one else on the show does, but even then, I don't think that's an excuse for not giving her a storyline. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Bass]

I don't think there will be that much anger over this. I think people just want her to have a decent story. Right now they've basically made her a supporting player once her function (getting to Alexandria) was over, and now that Jessie is being pushed as the ideal for Rick and his children. Michonne is a strong character in her own right and there's a lot that can be done with her, especially since there have been several implications that Alexandria is not what she thought it would be, and she's trying to convince herself otherwise. RIght now many Michonne fans have no idea if the show feels she is inferior to Jessie (essentially a blank slate with blonde hair and a white face). A strong story for Michonne, with or without Rick, would assuage those fears.

I also don't see that half of fans will be upset and half won't. The talk here is always that most fans of a character don't have extreme reactions, and it's only some online who do. I'm not sure why there is an exception for Michonne fans. If the show could take the huge risks that they took with Carol in season 4, when "Caryl" was by far the most prominent ship on this show and when they knew that her fans were extremely protective of her, then there's no reason they can't do the same with Michonne.

I also don't know if I agree that fans see Michonne as an avatar any more than any other character is. In many ways she's been just the opposite. We barely got inside her head for a season and a half, which led to endless fan criticisms that "all she did was snarl" (which was never true) and "she never talks" (which was never true). It's only been relatively recently that we've gotten more of her full spectrum as a character. If some fans project onto her, that's likely because she is a unique character who represents them in a way no one else on the show does, but even then, I don't think that's an excuse for not giving her a storyline.

[Bass]

I remember when Danai was first introduced on TTD with one of the writers. He was asked his thoughts on Michonne. His response, 'What's more awesome then a black chick with dreads and a sword!" I cringed. Even Danai was subdued. Yep, that is who was writing for michonne. Even in an interview, when responding to criticism from fans about her character being perceived as an angry snarling mute, Danai indicated she did approach the writers and asked 'can she talk now, and they said nope". She tried to be lighthearted about it, but you could tell the issue with the writing did concern her. Like in the scene when she finally breaks down and tells Rick about Maggie and Glenn, she says a young guy and a pretty girl. A black woman does not talk like that! She wouldn't look at maggie and think, "oh, shes pretty" no, she would say, "I saw a an asian guy and his girlfriend". And the scene when she is talking to Tyreese and he grills her about the governor and she says she does not know why she is still angry. But she did know! As an articulate AA female, she would express why because she wants him to hear her. But, of course, the writers did not understand this, and so her dialogue in the show has been peppered with this lack of perception.

@KJ4ever, in terms of her having a romance with Rick, that would be even more detrimental to her character, because it will be all about Rick, just like it is now. When you look at what most of the fans like about Michonne now, what you mostly get is "i like her relationship with Carl" "I like that she is there for Rick" "I like her, Rick and Carl as a family unit", "I like that she is smiling more when she is with Rick and Carl, etc. Most fans hardly mention her character development in Season 4 because there was very little. Season 4 was mostly for CAROL'S DEVELOPMENT AND ARC, just like season 3 was mostly for ANDREA'S DEVELOPMENT AND ARC. Michonne's arc in season 5? To get Rick to ASZ. And a romance with Rick? She would just be reduced to a prop for Rick's manpain and angst.

Danai is an award winning playwright, she has won awards for writing strong womens characters without the tropes and cliches. The TWD writers have yet to be recognized for their writing. And the reasons are quite obvious.

[kikismom]

c) Many viewers use Rick as an avatar and Rick getting the beautiful girl resonates with them. The same with viewers that relate and see themselves in Jessie, so her giving of herself to Rick resonates with them as well.

 

 

 

I also don't know if I agree that fans see Michonne as an avatar any more than any other character is. In many ways she's been just the opposite. We barely got inside her head for a season and a half, which led to endless fan criticisms that "all she did was snarl" (which was never true) and "she never talks" (which was never true). It's only been relatively recently that we've gotten more of her full spectrum as a character. If some fans project onto her, that's likely because she is a unique character who represents them in a way no one else on the show does, but even then, I don't think that's an excuse for not giving her a storyline. 

I meant avatar the same way you did; as someone who resonates with them and they relate and see themselves in.

 

The Jessie character --- we have barely got inside her head in a short number of minutes, much less a season and a half.

People could probably say all she does is smile, or she hasn't had more than a few lines.

We still have not gotten her full spectrum as a character.

Saying she is not a character is something I've talked about before: Eugene was just a catalyst for getting the Washington DC destination, Abraham was a plot device, Noah was a plot device...sometimes it takes a while for many characters to get explored by the scriptwriters

.

I don't know the fine line between considering someone an avatar --- and projecting on to a character that represents you.

 

Nothing is an excuse for anybody on the show not to get a decent storyline!

 

I myself am disappointed because interviews with AL promised that Glenn and Michonne would have huge moments in the back 8, but we only have 2 episodes to go. I haven't seen much of Michonne whatsoever---if she's going to have huge moments they better freaking hurry up and it better be gargantuan huge.

Glenn got a nice acting moment when he was in the Noah death scene...I don't think knocking Aiden on his ass was huge; enjoyable but not that big a deal.(IMO!)

Of course, that could be like Gale Ann Hurd telling us we'd need tissues for the episode (when Beth died). Talk about overselling. (and shitty storylines).

 

 

And the scene when she is talking to Tyreese and he grills her about the governor and she says she does not know why she is still angry. But she did know! As an articulate AA female, she would express why because she wants him to hear her. But, of course, the writers did not understand this, and so her dialogue in the show has been peppered with this lack of perception.

 

He wasn't as much grilling her about the Gov in that scene; she was scolding him for not letting go of the walker in the vines and told him that anger makes you stupid, stupid gets you killed.

So he asked if she was still angry at the Gov. she said she was not, and he came back with the question of why she was still looking for him then?

That's when she said she didn't know.

 When you wrote As an articulate AA female, she would express why because she wants him to hear her. But of course the writers did not understand this and so her dialogue on the show is peppered with this lack of perception....why not just an articulate woman? White, Asian, and Latino can express why they feel something and want to be heard. Maggie sure wanted Glenn to know why she was angry about his behaviour after the Governor/molestation incident. And she was very articulate about it and made sure he heard.

 

Give the writers the way---if they lack perception (on many things) about Michonne...and they are not going somewhere with her storyline, suggest a specific change. That is sincere from my interest:   what do you see as the storyline Michonne should have in the show right now.

 

Michonne is a strong character in her own right

RIght now many Michonne fans have no idea if the show feels she is inferior to Jessie (essentially a blank slate with blonde hair and a white face). A strong story for Michonne, with or without Rick, would assuage those fears.

 

 

If she is a strong character in her own right---and I think she always was from the comic to the tv screen---and a strong story without Rick would make her fans happy. than why would Michonne fans care if Jessie is there or sleeps with Rick? If  Michonne's strength has a purpose besides who she will or won't have sex with, why would that make her inferior to Jessie unless sleeping with Rick Grimes is some award for superiority?

 

Here is the interesting article about black women seeing Michonne as someone who represents them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/angela-d-coleman-/why-michonne-must-live-walking-dead_b_6903204.html

Edited March 21, 2015 by kikismom

[Pete Martell]

If she is a strong character in her own right---and I thing she always was from the comic to the tv screen, and a strong story without Rick would make her fans happy. than why would Michonne fans care if Jessie is there or sleeps with Rick? If  Michonne's strength has a purpose besides who she will or won't have sex with, why would that make her inferior to Jessie unless sleeping with Rick Grimes is some award for superiority?

 

Because of the lingering doubt that she will have a strong role of her own if she isn't heavily involved in Rick's story. Until that happens, then some fans are always going to wonder whether the show is saying now that "the new Andrea" or "the new Mrs. Rick Grimes" or whatever the media is calling her has arrived, Michonne is irrelevant. 

[Pete Martell]

The Jessie character --- we have barely got inside her head in a short number of minutes, much less a season and a half.

People could probably say all she does is smile, or she hasn't had more than a few lines.

We still have not gotten her full spectrum as a character.

Saying she is not a character is something I've talked about before: Eugene was just a catalyst for getting the Washington DC destination, Abraham was a plot device, Noah was a plot device...sometimes it takes a while for many characters to get explored by the scriptwriters

 

The interesting part is that to many fans, that's still enough. We know plenty about her because she said she worked a lot of jobs and she loves owls and kids. Some people say we've learned so much about her already, that it's time for her and Rick to hook up, or for her to be his partner. She's barely there, but she doesn't even have to be there. She is, essentially, a warm body, a smile and a hair color. 

 

Eugene was always a fairly complicated character (by this show's standards) to me. Abraham is an odd case, because the show seemed to assume viewers would love him from the start - "because comics" I guess - and didn't really make much effort to get people to care until Self Help. 

 

I think this is one of the things that rankles some Michonne fans, because they really have to make the bare minimum of effort for characters like Jessie or Abraham, but with Michonne, there was such a high threshold, to the point where some people even sympathized with The Governor over her.

[editorgrrl]

The Psychology of Inspirational Women: The Walking Dead’s Michonne And Carol

Note: there's a minor comic spoiler about Carol's personal life.

Both Carol and Michonne suffer immeasurable losses. The development of their mental health after these losses differs drastically. Whereas Michonne completely shuts down, Carol begins to open up and grow into herself. The main difference between the two women is that Carol embraces her pain and her new role, whereas Michonne runs away from it. Interestingly, once Michonne begins to bond with and open up to the members of the group, she starts recovering.

Edited March 21, 2015 by editorgrrl

[kikismom]

Because of the lingering doubt that she will have a strong role of her own if she isn't heavily involved in Rick's story. Until that happens, then some fans are always going to wonder whether the show is saying now that "the new Andrea" or "the new Mrs. Rick Grimes" or whatever the media is calling her has arrived, Michonne is irrelevant. 

Whoever arrives doesn't mean another is irrelevant unless the only way Michonne is relevant is if Rick doesn't have sex with Jessie.

Michonne can still be heavily involved in Rick's story or her own or with another character.

Whatever the media calls someone is the irrelevant part; that isn't anything the show ever said so why even pay attention to it.

 

 

Michonne is described as an educated professional woman, who survived on her own in the ZA for some time, fought like a warrior, and brought so much to the group over the seasons. They wrote Jessie as a SAHM who had to drop out of college when she got pregnant while her husband went to med school, and we have no evidence of her fighting walkers (or claimers or whatever). We have no evidence of either woman being evil.

 

SO---if it is not about having sex with Rick as the thing that makes someone important why does anyone think Jessie's presence makes Michonne inferior?

Why is there no other definition of being "heavily involved in RIck's story"? Except by fucking him?

I can name a handful of characters on the show who are heavily involved in Rick's story without fucking him and there's no one worried that they are now inferior or the character will not have a strong role of their own without being boned by RIck Grimes.

Edited March 21, 2015 by kikismom

[Pete Martell]

SO---if it is not about having sex with Rick as the thing that makes someone important why does anyone think Jessie's presence makes Michonne inferior?

Why is there no other definition of being "heavily involved in RIck's story"? Except by fucking him?

I can name a handful of characters on the show who are heavily involved in Rick's story without fucking him and there's no one worried that they are now inferior or the character will not have a strong role of their own without being boned by RIck Grimes.

 

I don't think most of the fans who are complaining about Michonne's treatment feel that it's about "fucking" Rick. The actors didn't go on Talking Dead or the behind the scenes videos and say, "Rick's dick got hard for that blonde babe." They went on about "connection." That this is the first "connection" Rick has felt toward any woman since Lori died. Given that his relationship with Lori wasn't exactly full of hot sex that we knew of, I don't think that's why Rick is drawn to her when they bring up Lori.

 

How many of those handful of characters have been essentially removed from his storyline in the space of a few episodes? 

 

That's what some Michonne fans are unsure about. If the show is ignoring her relationship with Rick (as it was not a "connection" like what he has with Jessie) and choosing not to give her any real storyline of her own even as they isolate her from Rick's story (compare it to someone like Daryl, who gets to simultaneously have involvement in Rick's story even as he is involved in his own story with Aaron as a recruiter).

Michonne is described as an educated professional woman, who survived on her own in the ZA for some time, fought like a warrior, and brought so much to the group over the season. They wrote Jessie as a SAHM who had to drop out of college when she got pregnant while her husband went to med school, and we have no evidence of her fighting walkers (or claimers or whatever). We have no evidence of either woman being evil.

 

I don't think anyone in the thread said they were evil. What I was saying is that it took a lot of work to get Michonne to a place where she was accepted by the audience and able to get more of her own material, whereas it seems like all it takes for many to accept Jessie is that Rick likes her (or wants to fuck her, or however people choose to say it) and she's sweet and cuts hair. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Pete Martell

[kj4ever]

Whoever arrives doesn't mean another is irrelevant unless the only way Michonne is relevant is if Rick doesn't have sex with Jessie.

Michonne can still be heavily involved in Rick's story or her own or with another character.

Whatever the media calls someone is the irrelevant part; that isn't anything the show ever said so why even pay attention to it.

 

 

Michonne is described as an educated professional woman, who survived on her own in the ZA for some time, fought like a warrior, and brought so much to the group over the season. They wrote Jessie as a SAHM who had to drop out of college when she got pregnant while her husband went to med school, and we have no evidence of her fighting walkers (or claimers or whatever). We have no evidence of either woman being evil.

 

SO---if it is not about having sex with Rick as the thing that makes someone important why does anyone think Jessie's presence makes Michonne inferior?

Why is there no other definition of being "heavily involved in RIck's story"? Except by fucking him?

I can name a handful of characters on the show who are heavily involved in Rick's story without fucking him and there's no one worried that they are now inferior or the character will not have a strong role of their own without being boned by RIck Grimes.

What story has Maggie had?  Sasha?  Tara?  Rosita for Christ's sake.  This is a big cast.  I don't see anyone complaining that none of them are considered to be Rick's other half.  Hell at this point we don't know that Jessie is.  I think Jessie is a breath of fresh air on the show and that's probably why Rick could be attracted to her.  Michonne is definitely Ride or Die, but just because they made their way to Terminus together and went through some bad shit doesn't mean they are Tru Luv.  They are more like people that come back from war zones after fighting together.  Bonded forever.  I never saw a "romantic" connection between the two, just like I never saw it with any of the other females left.  I guess that's why I don't understand why there is no outcry about the others.

 

I don't think most of the fans who are complaining about Michonne's treatment feel that it's about "fucking" Rick. The actors didn't go on Talking Dead or the behind the scenes videos and say, "Rick's dick got hard for that blonde babe." They went on about "connection." That this is the first "connection" Rick has felt toward any woman since Lori died. Given that his relationship with Lori wasn't exactly full of hot sex that we knew of, I don't think that's why Rick is drawn to her when they bring up Lori.

 

How many of those handful of characters have been essentially removed from his storyline in the space of a few episodes? 

 

That's what some Michonne fans are unsure about. If the show is ignoring her relationship with Rick (as it was not a "connection" like what he has with Jessie) and choosing not to give her any real storyline of her own even as they isolate her from Rick's story (compare it to someone like Daryl, who gets to simultaneously have involvement in Rick's story even as he is involved in his own story with Aaron as a recruiter).

 

I don't think anyone in the thread said they were evil. What I was saying is that it took a lot of work to get Michonne to a place where she was accepted by the audience and able to get more of her own material, whereas it seems like all it takes for many to accept Jessie is that Rick likes her (or wants to fuck her, or however people choose to say it) and she's sweet and cuts hair. 

I thought that Jessie and Rick definitely had a connection, but I don't know if it's romantic or not.  I think Rick needed and understanding ear and she was nice enough to be that for him.  She understands what he's going through right now.  Call me crazy, but I don't think being nice, sweet and compassionate make you an non-entity or bland.  Quite the opposite actually.

 

Many posts I've seen here started out with the Jessie hating and the of course the show would NEVER put Rick with a woman like Michonne.  They are blaming their attitudes on media speculation and interviews and comic spoilers.  I'd rather just watch and see how it plays out.  I like Rick with Jessie.  I hope it happens.  I think he needs that right now. 

[kikismom]

How many of those handful of characters have been essentially removed from his storyline in the space of a few episodes? 

Daryl was heavily involved with Rick's storyline, and then totally uninvolved with him after the prison fell, until everyone reunited the night the Claimers attacked.

 

Carol was heavily involved with Rick's storyline and then totally uninvolved with him until the reunion after Terminus fell.

 

Andrea was heavily involved with Rick's storyline until they found out she was alive more than 8 months later,

 

Hell even the Governor, even little Judith lol, were heavily involved in Rick's storyline, then uninvolved with him for a long time, then back to being involved with him again.

 

They were each essentially removed from Rick's storyline in the space of one episode!

Edited March 21, 2015 by kikismom

[Pete Martell]

Daryl was heavily involved with Rick's storyline, and then totally uninvolved with him after the prison fell, until everyone reunited the night the Claimers attacked.

 

Carol was heavily involved with Rick's storyline and then totally uninvolved with him until the reunion after Terminus fell.

 

Andrea was heavily involved with Rick's storyline until they found out she was alive more than 8 months later,

 

Hell even the Governor, even little Judith lol, were heavily involved in Rick's storyline, then uninvolved with him for a long time, then back to being involved with him again.

 

They were each essentially removed from Rick's storyline in the space of one episode!

 

They were removed from his space for the sake of their own storylines, so they had to be removed from his storyline. They were always going to reunite with him.

 

Michonne is still living with Rick and his kids. Yet her katana got more substantial airtime with Rick in the last two episodes where his story with Jessie really started. The only scene she had with Rick was the brief scene when they first started as constables, and she had few scenes of her own in her last episode (none at all in the newest).

Edited March 22, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

What story has Maggie had?  Sasha?  Tara?  Rosita for Christ's sake.  This is a big cast.  I don't see anyone complaining that none of them are considered to be Rick's other half.  Hell at this point we don't know that Jessie is.  I think Jessie is a breath of fresh air on the show and that's probably why Rick could be attracted to her.  Michonne is definitely Ride or Die, but just because they made their way to Terminus together and went through some bad shit doesn't mean they are Tru Luv.  They are more like people that come back from war zones after fighting together.  Bonded forever.  I never saw a "romantic" connection between the two, just like I never saw it with any of the other females left.  I guess that's why I don't understand why there is no outcry about the others.

 

I thought that Jessie and Rick definitely had a connection, but I don't know if it's romantic or not.  I think Rick needed and understanding ear and she was nice enough to be that for him.  She understands what he's going through right now.  Call me crazy, but I don't think being nice, sweet and compassionate make you an non-entity or bland.  Quite the opposite actually.

 

Many posts I've seen here started out with the Jessie hating and the of course the show would NEVER put Rick with a woman like Michonne.  They are blaming their attitudes on media speculation and interviews and comic spoilers.  I'd rather just watch and see how it plays out.  I like Rick with Jessie.  I hope it happens.  I think he needs that right now. 

 

None of their stories are dependent on Rick. In their entire time on the show, most of the ladies you mentioned have had a handful of scenes with Rick. Michonne's story in the back half of season 4 and in the back half of season 5 was heavily dependent on Rick.

 

I don't think anyone is saying being sweet or nice makes you a non-entity. Michonne is sweet, nice and compassionate - I haven't seen that many people call her a non-entity. Ditto for Maggie, Tara, etc. If people are calling Jessie a non-entity it's because in three episodes where she is supposed to have reshaped Rick's entire world and where he and Carol are so concerned about her fate that they are potentially plotting a murder to save her, the extent of her airtime has been a kiss on the cheek, telling Rick where his kids are, cutting his hair, and talking about an owl statue. 

 

There's some hate for Jessie because of Michonne. No doubt. I thought I might end up hating her because of the way Michonne was treated and because of the way she was almost treated as a leading lady by the press and Talking Dead soon after her arrival. But I don't hate Jessie. She's just there. At this point I hate the writing more than I have any strong emotion for Jessie.

 

The problem I have with the idea of Rick "needing" Jessie is that it underscores just how little voice she has in this plotline. What about what Jessie needs? What about her sons? Do an abused wife and potentially abused sons need another unstable man in their life, acting as their husband and father? Will a woman who has potentially been beaten or raped on multiple occasions be able to fulfill Rick's fantasy wife duties? If she can't, and she struggles, is he going to move onto a new new Lori? Or will the show just ignore her trauma as they have chosen to do so far?

 

Yes, it's only been three episodes, but they have chosen to heavily advance this story in three episodes. And in the process they have left said fantasy woman behind.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Pete Martell

[mightysparrow]

It was not shippers that brought out Ricohonne, it was the writers. They chose to hinge Michonne's development on Rick's and Carl, with a certain degree of closeness that can be misconstrued as some level of intimacy. But TWD writers are known for using tropes when writing for characters. But I recognized the Black Friend/Mammy/Black Weapon trope immediately in season 4 with Michonne. This particular trope has been used for so long in cinema that it has been ingrained in our collective consciousness that we tend to celebrate it as positive character development for an AA character in relation to the white character. People are so used to this depiction of AA female characters that they readily embrace it. The only way for the writers to rectify this is to give Michonne her OWN ARC SEPARATE FROM RICK, and her own love interest where she could showcase her feminine sensual side, and not just as Rick's wet blanket and weapon there to protect his kids.

 

I have no words to express how much I love this post; if it was a man, I'd marry it!  I've said that I'm glad that Jessie has come on the scene if it means that Michonne can get away from Rick Grimes and his kids and have her own story.  Let Rick look after his own damn kids.  The fact that they left the best fighter in the church to babysit Judith, Carl and Father G while the rest went off to get Beth STILL infuriates me.

 

Michonne needs her own story line and her own relationships outside of Rick so she can become a complete character.  I'm really hoping this will happen in Alexandria.

Edited March 22, 2015 by mightysparrow

[mightysparrow]

As for Jessie, she is not a character in her own right, she is written to serve as a catalyst for Rick. And if they do follow the comics, she wil be the sweet, innocent damsel in distress trope/spoils of war trope. The sweet innocent ray of light that the tortured warrior becomes smitten with her beauty and must save her from the evil tyrant. After the warrior vanquishes said tyrant, the beauty gives of herself to said warrior because SHE IS NOW A SPOIL OF WAR who is infatuated by said warrior and the warrior willingly complies. This particular tropes sells millions of romance novels a year and is a very popular trope among the graphic novel genre as well with guys. This is why many viewers do not have a problem with Rick

a)killing Pete outright (because let's be honest the writers have not done a very good job showing why Pete is so extremely dangerous in order to contemplate straight-up murder)

b)Jessie sleeping with the man that killed her husband (because, remember, with this particular trope, that's Rick's reward and shes grateful. Plus, she's considered beautiful and sweet, and its Rick, so she gets a pass.)

c) Many viewers use Rick as an avatar and Rick getting the beautiful girl resonates with them. The same with viewers that relate and see themselves in Jessie, so her giving of herself to Rick resonates with them as well. Now these tropes are even much, much older and even harder to not be influenced by.

Now, I hope that the writers will prove me wrong regarding Jessie and Michonne. Heck, I desperately hope that they have some creative trick up their sleeve. But, I am not optimistic, already Michonne's dev is still trope driven, Jessie is nothing more than a plot device, Rick is in crazytown development wash and repeat, and Pete is your run of the mill cardboard cutout. If the writers repeat past history, the whole Pete/Jessie/Rick with some Michonne thrown in will just be another sordid cliche.

 

That's why I want Michonne far away from this mess.  Let these folks work out their own soap opera and keep my favourite character out of it.  I happen to like the character of Jessie, but I don't like her enough that I want to see Michonne playing a background character to her.

The Psychology of Inspirational Women: The Walking Dead’s Michonne And Carol

Note: there's a minor comic spoiler about Carol's personal life.

 

 

'Embraces' or wallows.  The author should stick to writing about Carol because she obviously has no idea about Michonne or women like her.

Edited March 22, 2015 by mightysparrow

[kj4ever]

I have no words to express how much I love this post; if it was a man, I'd marry it!  I've said that I'm glad that Jessie has come on the scene if it means that Michonne can get away from Rick Grimes and his kids and have her own story.  Let Rick look after his own damn kids.  The fact that they left the best fighter in the church to babysit Judith, Carl and Father G while the rest went off to get Beth STILL infuriates me.

 

Michonne needs her own story line and her own relationships outside of Rick so she can become a complete character.  I'm really hoping this will happen in Alexandria.

Seriously about the church.  They took Tyreese, who was a big ass baby that didn't want to kill Walkers on a rescue mission?  I was so pissed that Michonne was left with the kids.  It was probably because Rick didn't trust anyone else to keep them safe, but still.  Tyreese ended up messing up their mission with his damn humanity...lol

 

I love Michonne's story line.  She has grown so much, and I don't think it has to do with Rick at all, I think it has to do with everyone.  She was mourning an unimaginable loss, shutting people out, and her arc in season 4 was beautiful.  I think her story ties more with Carl than Rick, but YMMV.  Yes, Rick went to crazy town when Lori died, but Carl had to watch his Mother die after they had been on such bad terms.  I still don't think that can equate to a Mother losing a child, but it's pretty damn close.  I think they "get" each other.

Edited March 22, 2015 by kj4ever

[Watcher0363]

Seriously about the church.  They took Tyreese, who was a big ass baby that didn't want to kill Walkers on a rescue mission?  I was so pissed that Michonne was left with the kids.  It was probably because Rick didn't trust anyone else to keep them safe, but still.  Tyreese ended up messing up their mission with his damn humanity...lol

 

I love Michonne's story line.  She has grown so much, and I don't think it has to do with Rick at all, I think it has to do with everyone.  She was mourning an unimaginable loss, shutting people out, and her arc in season 4 was beautiful.  I think her story ties more with Carl than Rick, but YMMV.  Yes, Rick went to crazy town when Lori died, but Carl had to watch his Mother die after they had been on such bad terms.  I still don't think that can equate to a Mother losing a child, but it's pretty damn close.  I think they "get" each other.

I like your view of Michonne mostly because it mirrors a lot of my perceptions on the character. For Michonne is the most developed character on TWD even more so than Rick. Not only have we seen more of her back story than anyone. We have seen her character evolve more than anyone. We have seen Michonne go from a happy woman with a boyfriend and a child, to someone becoming good at survival while her boyfriend began to fail at it. Then we saw her boyfriend's epic failure which she believed caused the death of her son, from there she went vengeful and lost a great deal of her humanity. Through Andrea she started to gain some of her humanity back, but she did not have much of a problem leaving Andrea behind.

 

When she encountered Rick and his group, she found a little more of her humanity. The fact that her 1st. reaction was to go off on her own after the fall of the prison showed how much she was still steeped in her, me against the world mentality. It was only after she went looking for the makers of the foot prints and found Rick, that she has committed to forming some kind of family.

 

In a way even though Michonne is not the lead of TWD she has become in many ways the lead character. She has pushed the group through Rick to the place where they are now. A lot of every thing that has happen the past two seasons has gone through the filter of Michonne one way or another. I have not read the comics but I read an synopsis of the story and the characters. The same Michonne does not exist on screen as the one on the page. That may good or bad from your point of view.

 

All I can say is that people will ship, just as some will wish gayness on every character they meet, just as others will wish for backbones or niceness in some characters. That is why Soap operas thrived for many years with the same old plot lines just with new characters, and in the case of some characters, the same old plot line just in a different decade. Did Erica Kane ever get a clue. No with her it was different decade, same old stuff. It is all retreaded Shakespeare, which was all retreaded Greek tragedies. Some times it is done well, most times not. It does not matter how well it is executed only that it and the characters entertain. Whether your entertainment flows from love of, or hate of, or love hate. All the writers and producers want, is for you to watch and discuss among yourselves. I look around this forum and they have succeeded. YAY!!

[mightysparrow]

Seriously about the church.  They took Tyreese, who was a big ass baby that didn't want to kill Walkers on a rescue mission?  I was so pissed that Michonne was left with the kids.  It was probably because Rick didn't trust anyone else to keep them safe, but still.  Tyreese ended up messing up their mission with his damn humanity...lol

 

I love Michonne's story line.  She has grown so much, and I don't think it has to do with Rick at all, I think it has to do with everyone.  She was mourning an unimaginable loss, shutting people out, and her arc in season 4 was beautiful.  I think her story ties more with Carl than Rick, but YMMV.  Yes, Rick went to crazy town when Lori died, but Carl had to watch his Mother die after they had been on such bad terms.  I still don't think that can equate to a Mother losing a child, but it's pretty damn close.  I think they "get" each other.

 

I actually agree with you about Michonne and Carl.  I think that Michonne's relationship/friendship with Carl is much more profound than her relationship with Rick.  I think that Michonne respects Rick, trusts him and is loyal to him but I don't know if she LIKES him all that much.  She's seen too much shit go down for that. 

 

Carl and Michonne do 'get' each other.  And not as mother/son but as friends. They both like comics and they recognize each other's pain.  Carl is the only one Michonne has told about her son (unless she told somebody offscreen) and Michonne is the only one that Carl has spoken to about feeling like a monster.  Both those confessions are really important.  Unfortunately, the writers dropped this stuff (along with other important plotlines) by the wayside to get to season 5.  I don't know if we'll ever deal with what we learned in 4b, which is a shame because there was some good stuff in 4b.

Edited March 22, 2015 by mightysparrow

[Sonny]

That's why I want Michonne far away from this mess.  Let these folks work out their own soap opera and keep my favourite character out of it.  I happen to like the character of Jessie, but I don't like her enough that I want to see Michonne playing a background character to her.

Indeed. I don't mind Jessie so much, but I do mind the predictable way the story seems to go. The lack of Michonne after she pushed for DC is annoying, because I hoped they would feature her more when she got to this presumably safe place, her reactions and more of how she handled it. She's now a sheriff with Rick, yet we haven't seen her do anything except hanging her sword on the wall and trying on her windbreaker. At least that's what I remember.

 

I actually agree with you about Michonne and Carl.  I think that Michonne's relationship/friendship with Carl is much more profound than her relationship with Rick.  I think that Michonne respects Rick, trusts him and is loyal to him but I don't know if she LIKES him all that much.  She's seen too much shit go down for that. 

 

Sometimes I think she knows that Rick can be crazy and unpredictable, and that this is a major reason for her to not get involved with him in more than a friendship.

Carl and Michonne really need more time together.

 

All I can say is that people will ship, just as some will wish gayness on every character they meet, just as others will wish for backbones or niceness in some characters. That is why Soap operas thrived for many years with the same old plot lines just with new characters, and in the case of some characters, the same old plot line just in a different decade. Did Erica Kane ever get a clue. No with her it was different decade, same old stuff. It is all retreaded Shakespeare, which was all retreaded Greek tragedies. Some times it is done well, most times not. It does not matter how well it is executed only that it and the characters entertain. Whether your entertainment flows from love of, or hate of, or love hate. All the writers and producers want, is for you to watch and discuss among yourselves. I look around this forum and they have succeeded. YAY!!

Very true! I'm in the camp that would like something different from the same old soap opera tropes, because I think this show isn't doing them so well.

 

But I don't hate Jessie. She's just there. At this point I hate the writing more than I have any strong emotion for Jessie.

 

The problem I have with the idea of Rick "needing" Jessie is that it underscores just how little voice she has in this plotline. What about what Jessie needs? What about her sons? Do an abused wife and potentially abused sons need another unstable man in their life, acting as their husband and father? Will a woman who has potentially been beaten or raped on multiple occasions be able to fulfill Rick's fantasy wife duties? If she can't, and she struggles, is he going to move onto a new new Lori? Or will the show just ignore her trauma as they have chosen to do so far?

 

Yes, it's only been three episodes, but they have chosen to heavily advance this story in three episodes. And in the process they have left said fantasy woman behind.

Oh, dear. If they really go with her being abused, then I hope they respect the trauma and psychical injuries. Or maybe they make her her fall for Rick because he now fits the type of men she is drawn to. Crazy, possessive, obsessed killer? I trust TPTB to pick the worst possible outcome.

[Pete Martell]

I didn't have much time to look through all of it at the store, but the newest TWD Magazine issue (#12) is a female-centric issue, including interviews with a number of actresses, as well as producers like Denise Huth. They also have lengthy character profiles of women like Carol and the various journeys of women in the comics over the years.