Alex Vause: International Drug-Runner and Lover

[mad_typist]

I have to give Laura Prepon credit - she surprised me with how well rounded and awesome she made this character. I'm a bit worried about the character's future, since she'll only be in a limited role in Season 2.

You can find more info here about Alex's future on the show (very mild spoilers, if any): http://www.avclub.com/article/laura-prepon-will-appear-in-four-episodes-of-orang-105543

[bravelittletoaster]

I feel like I see a lot of critiques of her acting, but I really like her in the role.  I also kind of lapsed into a shameless Vauseman shipper which I swore up and down wasn't going to happen, but I think those two have mad chemistry, and like Piper, it leads me to terrible decision making.  But I think Prepon's pretty bad ass in the role, and I liked how the show took our initial presumptions about her as the bad seed that led Piper astray and turned them upside down by the end of the season.  Which is not to say we learned at all that she was an innocent victim, but she did get as good as she gave, IMO.  Anyhow, I love their toxic dynamic.  Not the kind of thing I'd encourage in real life, but wildly entertaining on my tv.

[Chickadee]

What is everyone's take on the limited role she will have in S2? Imdb currently has posted she will only be in two episodes even though several sources have said she will appear in four episodes. I have been going back and forth on whose decision it really was in the first place. Prepon keeps saying "it was all scheduling" yet  looking at her filmography in Imdb, it show no projects she has been involved with either in pre-production, filming or post production post OITNB so what scheduling is she talking aobut? There was no coverage in the trades that indicated she was actively working on any projects (other than those that have been kicked around for the past few years Neighbros and the movie about her childhood in NJ). I have begun to think that the Alex story  was initially written as a one season arc. That meeting in the library between Piper and Alex was pretty final and it was bolstered by their last interaction when Alex firmly sent Piper on her way. I have come to believe that Prepon realized this show was gold and was going to try anything to get her character's story continued. I believe she initially knew the character was for one season and that is why she only had a one season contract. I have been getting the feeling more and more that it was Preopn's PR/management team that leaked the info about her not coming back to rial up the fan base so Prepon's management could use it as a negotiating leverage to extend her time on the show.

I don't think Kohan envisioned Piper/Alex as an on going story. I have a feeling she was on the Piper/Larry ship until she was shown otherwise.

I would really like to hear what everyone else thing about this.

[bravelittletoaster]

Well the latest figure was 4 episodes, but then after that Jenji said she would appear in "most" of the episodes.  Which to my mind is 7 if you're talking about a 13 episode season, but Jenji may have been playing fast and loose with that word.

As far as I have been able to glean, and I followed this pretty obsessively for a while, no one had any clue how successful and popular this show was going to be.  Prepon agreed only to one year and assumed that would be it.  Then it blew way the fuck up and she went back to them pretty quickly saying yeah, she'd be open to doing more, and they wanted her too, but they had to start from scratch in re: contract negotiation, and also it took them a while to work her back in, because they'd already planned the season without her.  Based on what they filmed for season 2 it seems like she'll mostly be in flashbacks and at a different prison, having been transferred to testify in the drug trial [this is semi-sourced from the book.]  But she filmed a lot from November on and into January, so I'd say she ends up with a substantial enough part.  Also a guy on IMDB's forums claiming to be a friend of Prepon's sister and who someone way more obsessive than me basically confirmed with a bit of internet stalking said that when they announce the season 3 pickup they'll also announce her return to regular status.

So I went from someone who did a lot of hand-wringing over this to being copacetic.  Jenji made some veiled comments at Paley about how binge-watching makes it more tolerable for characters to disappear for a little while because they'll be back in the next episode or two and you don't have to wait weeks to see them, and I tend to agree.  I find I've become much more chill about disappearing and reappearing characters as I binge watch seasons instead of watching one episode a week over the course of months.

Edited March 30, 2014 by bravelittletoaster

[Chickadee]

Guess we will never know the real answer unless some years down the road someone had the notion to do a "True Hollywood Story" and interview cast long after the show is history. Even then we might never get the true answer.

[CherithCutestory]

I don't think Kohan envisioned Piper/Alex as an on going story. I have a feeling she was on the Piper/Larry ship until she was shown otherwise.

 

 

I think that may very well be true.  Especially since that is the real life and the show was more faithful to the broad strokes of the story (if not the details) at first. But, since Alex was still in the prison at the end of season 1 and, if anything, they seemed to be setting up a quasi-"love" (sex) triangle with Alex/Piper/Nicky I doubt she was supposed to be gone right away in Season 2.  I mean by mid-season 1 they had to know where all the chemistry was. And Alex's anger was so deep felt and harsh that I don't think it was meant to be "oh, I'm not holding grudges today" in the very first episode of the next season. The story didn't seem over. Although I know they'd get to Chicago eventually since it is a big part of the book how she was written out seemed hastily written and was full of holes that aren't typical of how they write, which is usually broadly similar to reality (no federal parole, plea deals with people already convicted and sentenced do not work so that you walk that day, Piper wasn't told what was happening).   Also, Piper's storyline was so all over the place in season 2, often with her just talking about Alex, it felt like they had to completely redo their plans for her.  I know she wasn't meant to be the focus for season 2 but they could still make her less prominent storyline cohesive and sensible rather than scattered. Plus, now that Alex is back it seems like she'll be prominent again so it doesn't seem like having her on the backburner was as intentional as they like to claim. So, I'd be curious to find out what went down.

 

I feel like I see a lot of critiques of her acting, but I really like her in the role.

 

 

She isn't exactly a bad actor but I think she is fairly one note but it works for the character, if that makes sense. Like, she plays Alex much like she has played almost every role I've ever seen her in.  What she does with Alex isn't that different from Donna on That 70s Show.  But doing that brings a more down to earth, essentially decent but immature quality to someone who on paper could just be a straight up sociopath. She comes off like someone who is stuck in that place she was when she was an angry teenager desperate for love. Rather than someone who shamelessly (in fact she reminisces about it with tenderness) uses people  and seldom takes responsibility for her own culpability in the outcomes. It makes her much more likable and almost a girl next door type. Although it also means that she doesn't come off as the free fall through life, doing X on a beach in Cambodia type at all.  The Alex we know would be so fucking annoyed stuck on a beach with a bunch of idiots doing X. She'd be snarking about them and just want to be home spooning with Piper (who would be up for either the X on the beach or spooning).

 

I think a great example is the scene where they have the confrontation about Alex lying to Piper in the kitchen.  She kind of just reads the lines from one thing to the next without really connecting them all together with consistency. She doesn't play it as what is happening.  That after Piper said she loved and hated her, Alex turned it all around on Piper and magically ended up making Piper feel more guilty than angry. That she continues to make Piper out to be the bad guy for the rest of the episode, which is either delusional, narcissistic, or manipulative. I mean it is just fucking crazy to be angry at someone in their thirties for not choosing to free fall with you through life. But it is even crazier when you have just been caught lying to that person and manipulating them into feeling bad for suspecting you of something you did do. What sane person would choose Alex at that moment in time? But, as played by Prepon, what happens later has no connection to what happened before so those things get lost.  Another example is that there isn't even a hint of suggestion in the first episode of season 2 that Alex's "not holding grudges" that day coinciding with Alex needing something from Piper (perjury) isn't entirely accidental. Nor is there a hint in the acting that it is based on the fact that she was really worried about Piper when she was in the box after a really devestating incident (which would have been a positive reaction). She doesn't deliver lines poorly, at all. She isn't bad. She just sort of reads the lines without much reflection on how it is being said in response to the past or future. A better actor would definitely embrace and explore the overall character implications more and probably bring a character who is more sinister.  But would that make her actually better to watch? We have lots of great actors on this show doing interesting things. Prepon's note works. Katharine Hepburn may of had the range of A to B. But that got her four oscars. Sometimes range is overrated.

 

Although it does mean I don't have a ton of interest in a super expanded role for Alex. I don't know that I could buy her as the villain selling heroin in prison.  Even in flashbacsks she seems way out of her league as a big heroin trafficker.  In the scene with Kubra, Piper was a much more dynamic presence in the room. Piper is almost always a more dynamic presence in the room when they are together. And Alex seems to cling to her and be completely vulnerable to her charisma rather than the other way around (which is how the writing suggested it worked in Season 1 but sort of backtracked on in Season 2). And I don't know that I could buy her as a junkie using in prison. Those things seem like they'd require a lot more acting skill than she typically brings. Maybe she'd surprise me.  But, as of now, I don't have a ton of interest when she isn't playing off Taylor Schilling. I think Schilling props her up a bit. But I also think she seems to have a comfort level playing off of her that she doesn't with others (I thought her crying scene with Nicky in Season 1 was kind of painfully bad but her crying and devestation in the flashback with Piper after her mother's death was fairly good).

 

I think Taylor Schilling is a much more nuanced actor who is very willing to explore the negative aspects of her character. Which is why even though there really isn't even a little bit of moral equivalency between these two people (Alex is by far a worse human being and has been worse to Piper) it comes off that way sometimes. Because Schilling is more willing to go there and make Piper unlikable.  If anything she seems to love doing the stuff where Piper is being manipulative, hypocritical, selfish and narcissistic. Whereas Prepon seems to really shy away from the more sociopathic aspects of her character (even in interviews she justifies rather than glories in the dastardly aspects). And it works to make the couple seem more equal. Piper is played like a complicated, often manipulative and selfish but also capable of great generosity and kindness, adult and Alex is played like a cool teenager.  No matter what they tell us the facts are, you can't see them on screen and see any way that Piper is being manipulated and often used by this person who is so obviously and completely in awe of her and desperate for her love and approval. In the end, Piper has too much power over Alex to allow the audience to remember how she has been lied to and manipulated by this person. And Piper knows she has that power and uses it.

 

I was talking about the Taystee story, elsewhere. And it made me think about how similar Taystee and Alex are. Like insanely similar.  Both incredibly intelligent but were never able to put that intelligence toward anything productive.  Both charasmatic, funny, and enjoy books. Both essentially have fairly low feelings of self-worth despite high confidence in their own best qualities. Both are people you easily fall in love with.  Both think nothing of using the weaknesses of people like Nicky to further their career. Although, Alex basks in and loves ruining those lives to a degree Taystee doesn't.  Both quickly turn on those they genuinely care about and love. Alex furious and calling Piper an asshole for not being willing to do a drug run for her (which leads to her getting dumped) is not that unlike Taystee and Poussey.  Not to mention quickly turning over on her. Except, of course, Taystee has a lot more reasons to be in the situation she is in.  She never had a loving mother or a shot unlike Alex. Alex was relatively poor kid with a single parent who got picked on by some mean girls. But Taystee was an unwanted orphan whose only parental figure was a sociopath.

 

It is interesting seeing how different it feels and how different people react to see it play out in real time rather than in flashbacks.  How Taystee offering Nicky heroin feels different from Alex talking about how quickly she would have had her be a drug mule.  And the fact that getting people like Nicky using was her entire life's career, which she loved. How Taystee choosing the drug ring over Poussey feels like a betrayal in a way Alex flipping out over Piper's refusal to be a drug mule again doesn't.

Edited January 2, 2015 by CherithCutestory

[TheInvisibleWoman]

She isn't exactly a bad actor but I think she is fairly one note but it works for the character, if that makes sense.

 

Wow.

Are we even watching the same performance ???

 

I feel a bit sheepish for jumping to Laura's defense (not that she needs it---her fine work on OITNB speaks for itself) but I couldn't let this pass without a rebuttal re: her portrayal of Alex Vause.

 

If we're being completely honest, I wasn't a big fan of Prepon's acting before "Orange", having only seen her in "That 70's Show". I thought her line delivery was flat (sorry girrrrl ;) and the show as a whole, unfunny and, at times, unwatchable. To be fair, it was her first acting gig, and the bad scripts didn't help. Later on, I saw her in a couple of guest appearances on "Medium" and "House" and was pleasantly surprised to see how her dramatic acting had evolved. What she does on "Orange", however, is worlds away in terms of depth of character portrayal.

 

In her portrayal of Alex, she has created an extremely complex, charismatic, fully three-dimensional character, one who marks her deep insecurities behind a façade of bravado and wisecrackery. It is only when Alex is alone with Piper (and with Nicky in the library scene, which I thought was wonderfully acted by both actresses) that we see the "real" Alex Vause, and I think Prepon does a wonderful job of showing her vulnerable side. Alex & Piper's scenes together are tender, funny and *real*, and I don't think you can attribute that to chemistry alone. It would actually be unfair to do so as both actresses are at the top of their game in portraying that complex dynamic. Taylor is brilliant at walking a fine line between comedy and drama, and portraying a character who can be extremely unlikeable at times. It is to her credit that so many fans who do not like Piper can't help but root for her.

 

(re: Laura's portrayal of Alex)

 

It makes her much more likable and almost a girl next door type.

 

Actually OITNB casting director Jen Euston didn't see Laura as having the girl-next-door quality required to portray Piper Chapman (the role that Prepon initially auditioned for). She was, however, perfect for the role of Alex ("...she was exactly what they wanted for Alex", Euston is quoted as saying (source:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyorley/how-the-orange-is-the-new-black-cast-came-to-be#.db2YN65BL).

Jenji Kohan was herself "...so dazzled by how f—ing good she was"  (source: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/orange-is-new-black-casting-723404).

I can't argue with the show's creator and Emmy-award-winning casting director :)

 

 

(re: the kitchen scene confrontation between Alex & Piper)

 

She kind of just reads the lines from one thing to the next without really connecting them all together with consistency. She doesn't play it as what is happening.

 

I thought Prepon was terrific in this scene. I've watched and rewatched it many times and my heart never fails to break a little when I see Alex's pained expression as she says "Look at me". I really cannot imagine anyone doing a better job of portraying the depth of hurt and anger.

 

 

...her crying and devestation in the flashback with Piper after her mother's death was fairly good).

 

An utterly brilliant (not merely "fairly good") performance by Laura, in a crucial scene between Alex and Piper. Actually, both actresses shone in that scene. The chemistry between the two is nothing short of amazing; let's hope they get a lot of screen time together in season 3.

 

 

Piper is almost always a more dynamic presence in the room when they are together.

 

I think this was a deliberate decision on the showrunner's (Kohan's) part. In interviews, Prepon is animated and loud (she jokes about that), but Alex Vause has an almost quiet stillness to her. Alex internalizes her feelings and I think that is why the role works so well when Laura (deliberately, I believe) underplays it. Alex doesn't have the "Piper temper" and in fact, the only times we see her use her physicality is when she is pushed over the edge (e.g. in two scenes, both with Pennsatucky).

 

 

And Alex seems to cling to her and be completely vulnerable to her charisma rather than the other way around (which is how the writing suggested it worked in Season 1 but sort of backtracked on in Season 2).

I disagree. I think Alex is the black hole into which Piper is continually drawn. Prepon has alluded to this (albeit using a different analogy---the spider and the fly) in interviews, and said that at least one director told her to play the role that way.

 

Another example is that there isn't even a hint of suggestion in the first episode of season 2 that Alex's "not holding grudges" that day coinciding with Alex needing something from Piper (perjury) isn't entirely accidental.

 

I never saw Alex's motives in that episode as being sinister, so I didn't see the need to show any duplicity. I think that was just Alex's cocky way of telling Piper that she's really happy to see her.

As for the whole Alex-betrayed-Piper-in-Chicago thing....Can't we all agree that their trial testimony screwup was caused by a simple misunderstanding? In the show, Alex says "I thought you were gonna tell the truth!" and Piper replies "And I thought you were gonna lie!" followed up by Alex saying "Jesus, we are like a f-----g O.Henry story." , at which point, both characters smile fondly at each other. This tells me (as a viewer) that Piper now knows that Alex did not betray her.

 

Nor is there a hint in the acting that it is based on the fact that she was really worried about Piper when she was in the box after a really devestating incident (which would have been a positive reaction)

 

I thought the writers should have written in Alex's utter relief at seeing Piper after her stint in the SHU. I don't, however, blame Prepon, as she played the scene as it was written.

 

In summary, I think that Laura Prepon deserves a hell of a lot more credit for her work on "Orange is the New Black". I just wish that those who wrote off her talent after only watching her on "That 70's Show" (such as myself, I'm ashamed to say) would give her a second chance. Her work just keeps getting better and better, and I look forward to more of Alex in season 3.

Edited February 6, 2015 by TheInvisibleWoman

[CherithCutestory]

I thought Prepon was terrific in this scene. I've watched and rewatched it many times and my heart never fails to break a little when I see Alex's pained expression as she says "Look at me". I really cannot imagine anyone doing a better job of portraying the depth of hurt and anger.

 

That is the whole problem. That isn't ll that is going on in that scene. Alex had been lying to her and manipulating her. And she was manipulating her again by making Piper out to be the bad guy when it was 100% on Alex. While her hurt and anger are genuine, there are a lot more layers there.  She plays the scene like everything that just happened disappeared and now Alex is just hurt.

 

That other layer is just not there, at all. And that's a real problem. No one's heart should be breaking for fucking Alex in that moment. Laura Prepon is failing in that scene by making it all about that. We should be seeing why Piper's heart would break for her but as outside observer's get that this is fucked up for Alex to make it all about her pain when she is the one who just got caught lying and manipulating. But Prepon seems totally unwilling to explore the real darkness there. Just floats along the surface between snarky and hurt victim.

 

And let's be clear, Alex didn't just lie about turning Piper in. She gave her dirty looks for laughing at her jokes, told her to fuck off for even thinking it was Alex, got angry at her for trying to put it behind them. All the while knowing that she had done the thing she is pretending to be angry at Piper for thinking she did. All of those moments were acting. She knows if she confronts Piper about her justifications for why she did it she would never win against Piper's temper. But Piper's weakness is being called out on how terrible she is then she'll back down. And even if Alex is hurt that she thinks Piper doesn't want her unless she doesn't have anyone else she is also using that hurt to manipulate Piper into backing off from her anger.  It is a deeply manipulative and fucked up thing to do. And indicative of a deeply fucked up person. And that is not what is being displayed there.

 

No another actor may not show the hurt and anger as well because they would likely be including the other elements, as well.

 

I disagree. I think Alex is the black hole into which Piper is continually drawn. Prepon has alluded to this (albeit using a different analogy---the spider and the fly) in interviews, and said that at least one director told her to play the role that way.

 

Well, I agree that that is what it is supposed to be. At least, in season 1. It just is never how it is actually comes across to me.

 

As is, Alex is the one desperate to have Piper cuddle her and like her. Alex always seems more desperate for Piper than the other way around. Which in interviews they suggest it is supposed to be the opposite.

 

I think this was a deliberate decision on the showrunner's (Kohan's) part. In interviews, Prepon is animated and loud (she jokes about that), but Alex Vause has an almost quiet stillness to her. Alex internalizes her feelings and I think that is why the role works so well when Laura (deliberately, I believe) underplays it. Alex doesn't have the "Piper temper" and in fact, the only times we see her use her physicality is when she is pushed over the edge (e.g. in two scenes, both with Pennsatucky).

 

 

I don't think being dynamic is being outwardly showy. I think it is having a magnestism and being the one people are drawn to in a room. In the scene with Kubra they are both just sitting there.

 

that we see the "real" Alex Vause, and I think Prepon does a wonderful job of showing her vulnerable side.

 

The real Alex Vause is not just vulnerable and cries sometimes. She is highly manipulative. She takes pleasure at destroying lives and even reminisces about it. She is so vindicitive she will write you off even if someone is threating to murder you (and if Boo knew Piper's life was in danger then Alex knew) even though she got dumped for very good reasons. There is a lot that goes into what the real Alex Vause is supposed to be beyond snarky and distant sometimes and crying and vulnerable others.

 

All of that is not regularly displayed. And an actor is supposed to show the whole package. Acting isn't just crying and showing the vulnerable side.

 

By comparison, who is the real Piper Chapman? You can't really say Piper's scenes with Alex are more the real Piper than her scenes with Polly. She is a complex person with a lot of facets and that is brought in almost every scene. And Piper has her face she shows to the outside world just like Alex does. That isn't different.

 

 

I never saw Alex's motives in that episode as being sinister, so I didn't see the need to show any duplicity. I think that was just Alex's cocky way of telling Piper that she's really happy to see her.

 

 

At that point she was planning on lying on the stand, so she needed Piper to lie so that it wasn't obvious she was lying on the stand. If Piper told the truth Alex's testimony about not knowing about Kubra would be a clear lie and would hurt the deal she had in place (even before her additional deal to walk that day she got time off for everyone she named). She says it explicitly in the van. She may not have planned to double cross her, at that time. But she absolutely did need her to perjur herself for her at the moment she asked her to.

 

Her bull shit "no holding grudges" (eventhough she has NO reason to have ANY grudge and Piper should be the one upset with her, if anything) comes at just the moment when she needs to make sure their stories are the same. She absolutely needed her.

 

I'm sure she was happy to see Piper too. I'm sure she was worried about her. I just think there could be more than one emotion being displayed at a time.

 

Taylor is brilliant at walking a fine line between comedy and drama, and portraying a character who can be extremely unlikeable at times.

 

That's the whole difference. They are both playing characters who can be extremely unlikable at times. Alex is far more unlikable. But only Taylor plays it that way. And that is Prepon's weakness. She doesn't explore or even portray most of the time the deeply unsettling facets of Alex's character. 

 

Like I said, I do like her in the role. I think it works. But I don't think she is doing any particularly sophisticated work showing the real complexities of the character.

 

FWIW, I liked her on That 70's Show.

Edited February 6, 2015 by CherithCutestory

[TheInvisibleWoman]

 

  

That is the whole problem. That isn't ll that is going on in that scene. Alex had been lying to her and manipulating her. And she was manipulating her again by making Piper out to be the bad guy when it was 100% on Alex. While her hurt and anger are genuine, there are a lot more layers there.  She plays the scene like everything that just happened disappeared and now Alex is just hurt.

That other layer is just not there, at all. And that's a real problem. No one's heart should be breaking for fucking Alex in that moment. Laura Prepon is failing in that scene by making it all about that. We should be seeing why Piper's heart would break for her but as outside observer's get that this is fucked up for Alex to make it all about her pain when she is the one who just got caught lying and manipulating. But Prepon seems totally unwilling to explore the real darkness there. Just floats along the surface between snarky and hurt victim.

And let's be clear, Alex didn't just lie about turning Piper in. She gave her dirty looks for laughing at her jokes, told her to fuck off for even thinking it was Alex, got angry at her for trying to put it behind them. All the while knowing that she had done the thing she is pretending to be angry at Piper for thinking she did. All of those moments were acting. She knows if she confronts Piper about her justifications for why she did it she would never win against Piper's temper. But Piper's weakness is being called out on how terrible she is then she'll back down. And even if Alex is hurt that she thinks Piper doesn't want her unless she doesn't have anyone else she is also using that hurt to manipulate Piper into backing off from her anger.  It is a deeply manipulative and fucked up thing to do. And indicative of a deeply fucked up person. And that is not what is being displayed there.

No another actor may not show the hurt and anger as well because they would likely be including the other elements, as well.

 

(Re:  the kitchen scene)

Well, you can't express something that isn't in the characterization. If you expect Alex to feel badly about lying to Piper about ratting her out to the feds, you'll be waiting a very long time. Remember that first and foremost, Alex is a survivor. Laura has alluded to this in several interviews. Alex is also a self-confessed "ruthless pragmatist".

 

I don't see the manipulation going on in this scene at all. I think Alex is genuinely hurt, esp. after she (a) realizes that Larry dumped Piper (a fact deliberately hidden from Alex by Piper) and (b) thought Piper was merely using her as a source of comfort in prison.

 

As for why we should feel badly for Alex...... Where do I begin? Piper left her the very day Alex's mother died (and never apologized for it), played the innocent victim (to Larry, her family and even Alex--in the bathroom confrontation) and wronged party ("You stole my good life", in the pie-throwing scene).  She never expresses sadness at the damage she did to Alex (and she knew about Alex's heroin use, in the yoga scene) or concern for Alex's need for anti-depressants in prison (in the first bunk scene). Piper had plenty of opportunities to apologize for abandoning Alex before they reconciled---her failed apology attempt in their first laundry scene---and even after they reconciled (chapel scene, when Alex asked Piper if she knew Tricia better than Alex's mom). In the kitchen scene, finally, it all blew up after Alex discovered that Piper was, in fact, dumped by Larry (thus her genuine fear of Piper using her as a binky).....I mean, how can you not feel sorry for Alex in that moment??

 

On top of all these strong feelings of anger, however, is Alex's intense love for Piper---a woman she never got over, even after eight years apart--- thus her "I wanted you to like me" explanation/excuse. You can see all the weight of their past history, and Alex's conflicting emotions in Prepon's face and words, and I think Laura does a great job of expressing that, both verbally and non-verbally (more about that later).

 

Though I don't agree with Alex's decision not to tell Piper she turned her in, I can see her justifying it in her own mind, especially after Piper treated her like crap (even Nicky said that Piper was acting like "an asshole", in the 'Vote for Morello' scene).

 

 

Well, I agree that that is what it is supposed to be. At least, in season 1. It just is never how it is actually comes across to me.

As is, Alex is the one desperate to have Piper cuddle her and like her. Alex always seems more desperate for Piper than the other way around. Which in interviews they suggest it is supposed to be the opposite.

 

It could be a simple matter of perception..... What I see is Piper is constantly staring at Alex like she's the Second Coming...even when she's annoyed with Alex (in the dryer scene) or angry with her (Alex handing out prison shoes scene). I could go on and on with more examples.....I'm not saying Piper has no emotional hold over Alex--quite the opposite---but it's pretty obvious to me who is more drawn to whom.

 

I don't think being dynamic is being outwardly showy. I think it is having a magnestism and being the one people are drawn to in a room. In the scene with Kubra they are both just sitting there.

 

I can't think of a more charismatic character on the show than Alex Vause; I think that's why Piper is so drawn to her ;)

 

 

The real Alex Vause is not just vulnerable and cries sometimes. She is highly manipulative. She takes pleasure at destroying lives and even reminisces about it. She is so vindicitive she will write you off even if someone is threating to murder you (and if Boo knew Piper's life was in danger then Alex knew) even though she got dumped for very good reasons. There is a lot that goes into what the real Alex Vause is supposed to be beyond snarky and distant sometimes and crying and vulnerable others.

 

All of that is not regularly displayed. And an actor is supposed to show the whole package. Acting isn't just crying and showing the vulnerable side.

 

By comparison, who is the real Piper Chapman? You can't really say Piper's scenes with Alex are more the real Piper than her scenes with Polly. She is a complex person with a lot of facets and that is brought in almost every scene. And Piper has her face she shows to the outside world just like Alex does. That isn't different.

I never said that Alex was more complex a character than Piper; in fact, I think Piper is more complex.

 

I could, however, write a whole book on Laura's amazing non-verbal acting alone. Her expressions & facial mannerisms, the way she uses her glasses to show emotions (fiddlng with them when nervous, taking them off when she wants to open up to someone emotionally), her stance, the way she carries herself, etc. etc.. It's quite remarkable acting, in my opinion.

At that point she was planning on lying on the stand, so she needed Piper to lie so that it wasn't obvious she was lying on the stand. If Piper told the truth Alex's testimony about not knowing about Kubra would be a clear lie and would hurt the deal she had in place (even before her additional deal to walk that day she got time off for everyone she named). She says it explicitly in the van. She may not have planned to double cross her, at that time. But she absolutely did need her to perjur herself for her at the moment she asked her to.

 

Her bull shit "no holding grudges" (eventhough she has NO reason to have ANY grudge and Piper should be the one upset with her, if anything) comes at just the moment when she needs to make sure their stories are the same. She absolutely needed her.

 

I'm sure she was happy to see Piper too. I'm sure she was worried about her. I just think there could be more than one emotion being displayed at a time.

 

What deal did Alex have in place in Chicago? I re-read the transcript of the episode and couldn't find anything alluding to this. Again---look at Piper's face in the visiting room after the "O. Henry" line---she knows that Alex wasn't trying to manipulate her, and now we know it, too.

 

That's the whole difference. They are both playing characters who can be extremely unlikable at times. Alex is far more unlikable. But only Taylor plays it that way. And that is Prepon's weakness. She doesn't explore or even portray most of the time the deeply unsettling facets of Alex's character.

 

Like I said, I do like her in the role. I think it works. But I don't think she is doing any particularly sophisticated work showing the real complexities of the character.

 

FWIW, I liked her on That 70's Show.

 

 

Well, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, CC; I think Laura's doing a fantastic job of portraying a multi-dimensional character, and you don't. I see the complexity behind Laura's subtle portrayal of Alex and you don't. And FWIW, I thought she was really good in some of the dramatic scenes in "70s" ;) (I should have mentioned that earlier).

Edited February 8, 2015 by TheInvisibleWoman

[CherithCutestory]

As for why we should feel badly for Alex...... Where do I begin? Piper left her the very day Alex's mother died (and never apologized for it),

 

She has nothing to apologize for. She broke up with her the day before her mother died. It was just the day she could get a flight. She broke up with the person who called her an asshole for not being a drug mule. The person who tried to manipulate Piper's love for her into commiting a crime (Alex said something along the lines of "I just need you to do this for me").  She then walked out on the sociopath who hid her passport in a foriegn country. (I don't think Alex is a sociopath but that is a sociopathic move and one of the most common moves of an abuser whose significant other is not in their native land. I don't think she is abusive, either. But it isn't good.)

 

No one has any obligation to go to their ex-girlfriend's mother's funeral. Piper had to get out. She finaly had the courage to leave the person she loved. Holding her at her mother's funeral and then leaving the day after that wouldn't have helped. And it wouldn't have made Alex feel any better. What would PIper's being there for a few extra days really have done? Nothing. Alex didn't want her there for that. She wanted her there forever.

 

Alex made bad life choices and that is why she was alone. She chose the drug trade over Piper. Like Piper said she couldn't face the fact that being a drug dealer alienated everyone in her lfie. The fact that Alex doesn't understand this is beyond pathetic.

 

played the innocent victim (to Larry, her family and even Alex--in the bathroom confrontation) and wronged party ("You stole my good life", in the pie-throwing scene). 

 

 

She admitted she only has herself to blame for being in prison several times. To her mother, to the reporter (when he says Fig is a criminal "so am I"), to her father ("that is exactly who I am"), and to Alex when she admitted that was her life. In her very first scene with Healey she said "but I did it". She even takes full responsibility for getting Pennsatucky out of Psych even though it was Alex's plan (and Alex made no move to step up). Even if she initially played the victim she quickly gets over it.

 

Alex did rat her out. She did admit it was partially a "fuck you" to do it. It was an incredibley shitty thing to do. Snitches get stiches. Piper is pretty forgiving about it. Piper may have done the crime but that doesn't make ratting her out an ok thing to do.

 

She never expresses sadness at the damage she did to Alex (and she knew about Alex's heroin use, in the yoga scene) or concern for Alex's need for anti-depressants in prison (in the first bunk scene).

 

 

Damage she did to Alex?! It was a breakup. They happen. She didn't do anything particularly horrible in the breakup (considering that an extra week to plan a funeral wouldn't have helped and isn't Piper's obligation). Her heroin use is not Piper's fault. It is not damage Piper inflicted upon her. Her ability to make herself a victim is infuriating.

 

And it is unfair to say Piper doesn't take responsibility for her life and plays the victim (which isn't true) and then let Alex play the victim for things that are in no way Piper's fault.

 

As for the sad pills scene Piper wasn't unsympathetic. They sat there and held hands. There was nothing to say about it. Alex wasn't looking for sympathy. She can be very sympathetic to Alex and concerned for her safety when needed (look at her freaking out about Alex's safety, commiting perjury because she saw her look sad and stressed, jumping to her defense when she told her mom Alex was the last of her problems, jumping to her defense when Cindy was going to steal Alex's boots, worrying about getting her out of the dryer, trying to take full responsibility for the dryer, not implicating her for her role in the Pennsatucky plot).

 

Beyond that Alex ruined countless lives. She took lots of girls like Nicky and turned them into mules. Some of them surely got onto heroin. She seems to have turned many of them in when it suited her. She doesn't feel bad about the damage she did to them. She reminices about it with Nicky twice. She would certainly say they made their own choices. So, that is all that should be said to her. Piper left because she had no future with Alex and didn't want to be more of a criminal than she already was. Alex made her own choices after that.

 

 

Piper had plenty of opportunities to apologize for abandoning Alex before they reconciled---her failed apology attempt in their first laundry scene---and even after they reconciled (chapel scene, when Alex asked Piper if she knew Tricia better than Alex's mom).

 

 

She had nothing to apologize for. Why would she? She didn't abandon anyone. She wisely broke up with someone trying to pressure her into committing more crimes. Beyond that she was an intelligent young girl with a Smith degree wasting her life following her girlfriend around. That couldn't last. And that was before Alex's mother died. Most people have been broken up with or broken up with someone. It isn't "abandoning" it is just how relationships end.

 

With the Trish scene Alex was being a total asshole. Turning Piper's pain into being all about her. When Piper didn't do anything wrong by not going to her ex's mother's funeral, in the fist place. Piper rightly called her out on how unfair she was being.

 

And her apology attempt was only because Alex was lying about not turning her in. She was apologizing for accusing her. Which was all manipulation on Alex's part. Alex wasn't mad at her in that scene. She knew that Piper would have every right to be angry if she knew she snitched (which is why she lied, so Piper wouldn't be mad at her). But she knows her well enough to know that fighting with her about it won't do any good. Piper will always win in a fair fight (she has a big temper, she is smarter, and she goes for the kill in a fight). But her Achilles heel is people making her feel like a bad person. We have seen it over and over (Crazy Eyes, Miss Claudette, Larry). She clams up and takes it even when she is in the right. Alex is exploiting that. Knowing if she gets Piper to feel bad for long enough Piper will start sniffing around her. That is why she magically isn't angry anymore when she has Piper alone in the laundry room.

 

 

In the kitchen scene, finally, it all blew up after Alex discovered that Piper was, in fact, dumped by Larry (thus her genuine fear of Piper using her as a binky).....I mean, how can you not feel sorry for Alex in that moment??

 

 

Because Alex knew she was an engaged woman! And chose to be with her her. And has absolutley no room to play the victim now. Because ALex had been manipulating her for weeks! Because Alex pretended Piper was an asshole for thinking it was Alex who turned her in. When she wasn't. She was right.

 

Beyond that Larry put a break on their relationship because Piper said she was in love with Alex! She isn't using Alex. The fact that she loves her is why she doesn't have a fiance anymore. She isn't being disingenous. She isn't lying. She does love her. Alex's fear isn't genuine. She doesn't have a clue about what happened between them. PIper gave up her fiance for Alex by admitting she loved her and then when she found out the truth she couldn't just let her go after making that sacrifice. That is not the same as using her.

 

Why would anyone feel sorry for Alex in that moment? She turned her ex in as revenge for her leaving her (which she admitted in that scene was a big part of it). She lied to her and manipulated her into feeling bad for thinking it was her who did it for weeks. She knew she was engaged to be married and even made jokes about not being room for four in their relationship but now is flipping out because why exactly? Because Piper is holding onto her after losing everything else? Give me a break. Piper threw everything else away for her. She knew exactly what she signed up for. She knew her fiance was a priority for Piper. It is one more pathetic examples of her playing the victim when she is the one who is 100% in the wrong.

 

 

Though I don't agree with Alex's decision not to tell Piper she turned her in, I can see her justifying it in her own mind, especially after Piper treated her like crap (even Nicky said that Piper was acting like "an asshole", in the 'Vote for Morello' scene).

 

 

Nicky only said she was an asshole because they both thought she had accused Alex of somehting she didn't do. No one in the history of prison has ever thought being mad at your snitch made you an asshole. Snitches get hugs is not a common prison phrase. In season 2, Nicky calls Alex Piper's psycho ex and mocks her once she had learned the truth of what happened. Once she knew Piper hadn't been accusing her falsely she thought Alex was a psycho.

 

For comparison, see how Nicky treats Boo for snitching. See how Nicky feels about herself for snitching on Red to Pornstache. It isn't something she takes lightly.

 

Piper treated her like crap?! You have every right to be angry at the person who turned you into the police. Other people would murder her for that. Piper just didn't want to have to talk to her. That's all. That's all Piper asked. Was for Alex to leave her alone. Which Alex could not comply with and had to force herself on her at the lunch table. Was it really so unreasonable that Piper didn't want to chat with her snitch? That she wanted to do yoga without the person who went out of their way to land them in prison gawking at them and trying to blame their heroin addiction on them? Is that really so crappy?

 

What deal did Alex have in place in Chicago? I re-read the transcript of the episode and couldn't find anything alluding to this. Again---look at Piper's face in the visiting room after the "O. Henry" line---she knows that Alex wasn't trying to manipulate her, and now we know it, too.

 

 

If Alex got on the stand and lied and then Piper got on the stand and told the truth they would know Alex committed perjury. Alex explicitly says this in the van "if you get on the stand and tell the truth then they'll know I'm lying". SHe goes onto say "you have to do this for me" which Piper responds sarcastically with "or what we're through?" and Alex jokes that she wants to be her prison wife. It was made very clear that Alex was begging for a favor. 

 

Alex's deal where she got time off for everyone she turned in (which she told Piper about in the kitchen scene) would be blown and she would face additional perjury charges (perjury is a felony). She needed Piper to lie for her. And, so, suddenly she was being nice and not holding grudges she had no right to hold in the first place.

 

I could go on and on with more examples.....I'm not saying Piper has no emotional hold over Alex--quite the opposite---but it's pretty obvious to me who is more drawn to whom.

 

 

I think most of those scenes just show that Piper is a lot more confident in herself and her place in Alex's heart. She knows if she goes to Alex then Alex will accept her. Alex has to manipulate her to get her because she is so afraid of rejection. I know that isn't how it is supposed to be. But Alex seems like such a scared little girl so much of the time.

 

Alex is a grown woman who can't get over getting dumped. Everyone gets dumped. She wasn't dumped after her mother died. She was dumped before. And her ex didn't allow her to use that death as a way to manipulate her back into her good graces. That is a completely correct response. She lied to and manipulated Piper from the second she got into the prison.

 

She is basically a pathetic loser who makes herself the victim in every situation. I think Laura is good at those parts of the character, which are really more immature and teenish. Pathetic loser is better than psycopath.

 

I do ship Vauseman. I like them together. I think Alex has good qualities. I just think it is unfair to make Alex out to be Piper's vicitm (prior to the end of Season 2) in any way, shape, or form. It takes some really drastic minimization of Alex's behavior (essentially writing out her calling Piper an asshole for not committing another felony, her hiding her pasport to trap her there,  her constant manipulatoin, and her moral indignation that Piper would accuse her of ratting her out) and some real exaggeration of Piper's flaws (essentially writing out that Piper broke up for a good reason, that Piper never lied to her about Larry, that Piper told Larry she loved Alex and wasn't just using her, that Piper did try to apologize when she thought Alex hadn't snitched, that she repeatedly admits that she is in prison due to her own choices). It requires Piper to have super-human forgivness to not care about someone ratting her out (something that most humans dislike) but Alex to not be responsible for any of her own choices such as using her girlfriend in her drug business even after she says no, taking heroin, trying to trap her gf in a foriegn country, lying to her about snitching, constant manipulation.

 

It also ignores that Alex didn't take Piper with her for Piper. She didn't do it to make PIper happy. She did it because she would miss her too much. She wanted Piper with her. All of the time. Because she was in love with Piper. So, it is unfair for her to suddenly act like Piper has to earn her place by doing drug/money runs she explicitly says she doesn't want to do. It is unfair to treat her like a commodity one moment and then expect her to go back to being her girlfriend when she needs emotional support.

 

ETA: To be clear, I don't think Piper is any victim either. I think they are equals in every sense. In the end, it is the couple's saving grace.

Edited February 10, 2015 by CherithCutestory

[OrangeCrush]

CherithCutestory I love your analysis and comments on Vauseman. I totally agree with every thing you have posted. Too often Piper gets the hate because viewers are also being manipulated by Alex. Alex is no victim. Like Piper said, she is the wolf that eats lambs. They want to blame Piper for everything...things Piper never did and is not responsible for. I personally think Piper is the most complex, fleshed out really intriguing character is all of OITNB. I can't wait to see what they writers have in store for us in S3.

[TheInvisibleWoman]

@CherithCutestory

I ship Vauseman.

 

Well on *that* we agree!

I guess I must be seeing Alex through rose-colored shipper glasses.....I do not see her as a "pathetic loser' (your phrase, not mine) in any way, shape or form. She is a human being, one with faults and fears like anyone else, and it's this vulnerability (hidden behind a tough exterior) that makes her (in my opinon, anyway) a sympathetic character.

 

I'm not saying Alex didn't do bad things .....I'm just saying that she deserves a measure of understanding and empathy, like anyone else. Of course her motives were selfish with regard to lying to Piper about ratting her out to the Feds, but weren't Piper's motives (for leaving Alex in Paris, for leaving Larry for Alex, for leaving Alex for Larry, etc etc) also selfish? I'm just saying that both Alex and Piper are self-centered and both need to do a lot of growing-up. Yes, Piper has matured during her stay at the Litch ---she admits that her being there is "no one's fault but (her) own"----but Alex has also shown maturity in apologizing to Piper "for all of it" and taking responsiblity for Piper's being in prison, in their final visitation scene.

 

Re: Alex's responsibility for her own heroin use, post-Paris....By the same logic, it was Piper who carried that suitcase, not Alex. In other words, each character was responsible for her own actions. If you don't want to lay *any* blame on Piper's doorstep for Alex turning to heavy drugs after being dumped, then you can't lay any blame on Alex for Piper agreeing to carry the suitcase to Brussels. Just sayin'.

Snitches get stitches

Charming phrase.....but let me ask you this: how do you feel about Piper ratting Alex out to the cops at the very end of Season 2?

[CherithCutestory]

Charming phrase.....but let me ask you this: how do you feel about Piper ratting Alex out to the cops at the very end of Season 2?

 

 

I never claimed that Piper was perfect, far from it. But that example saved Alex's life. So, I feel good about it. Maybe it wan't Piper's motive but it doesn't matter because Alex would have ended up dead. And I do like her despite issues so I'm glad she won't die. Regardless, Alex will be entitled to her anger. As hypocritical as it will be.

 

But it brings up a good point. When Alex returns would you be okay with Piper lying and saying she didn't turn her in? Would you be okay if she flipped out and said "fuck you for thinking I did" and then gave her the silent treatment for thinking that? If she gave her dirty looks for laughing at her jokes because she is so pissed off that Alex would dare think she would get her locked up? 

 

If after Alex found out the truth would you think it would be okay for Piper to turn it around and be furious at her for not wanting to be in a relationship?

 

then you can't lay any blame on Alex for Piper agreeing to carry the suitcase to Brussels.

 

 

Piper didn't ask Alex to take heroin. She didn't put the needle in her arm the way Alex applied Piper's wig and handed her the suitcase. Of course, it was Piper's choice and she deserves what she got. But Alex intentionally made it happen after promising her she wouldn't have to do anything illegal. Piper didn't intentionally get Alex hooked on heroin.

 

Manipulating someone who loves you into doing something bad isn't the same as breaking up with someone and their later making choices you would never want them to make. By that logic, no one could ever break up with anyone for fear of the consequences.

 

And I don't think it was wrong for Alex to do it to Piper. I think it is wrong for Alex to do it to anyone. I think she ruined young lives and she enjoyed it. She enjoyed doing it to the types of girls who used to bully her. She reminsces about it. I think it was wrong for Taystee to give Nicky heroin, too. Same thing.

 

but weren't Piper's motives (for leaving Alex in Paris, for leaving Larry for Alex, for leaving Alex for Larry, etc etc) also selfish?

 

 

Piper is selfish often. But I don't think not wanting to be a drug mule or sworn at for not wanting to be a drug mule is the same level of selfishness as locking your ex up, who only did their crime for you, because you are pissed she left. Alex told her to be with Larry if she wanted to nest. So, she was just complying.

 

Her cheating on Larry was definitely selfish. But who cares? It is Larry. I mean, really, if you play that far out of your league your are going to have trouble keeping up.

 

Piper and Alex are both selfish. Almost, everyone there is except Poussey. But Alex would never risk an additional five years in prison (maximum sentence for perjury) because Piper asked her to and looked sad. Alex would never risk going to the SHU to get someone she hated out of Psych even though it was Piper's plan originally. Alex didn't commit felonies just for Piper.  That's the difference, for me. They are both selfish but Alex is seldom selfless.

 

And I meant pathetic loser in a good way! She isn't a psychopath. She just makes very bad life decisions because she is incapable of getting over past anger and grudges. But anyone still that pissed off about a breakup (when they deserved to get dumped, especially) after eight years is definitely a pathetic loser.

Edited March 6, 2015 by CherithCutestory

[TheInvisibleWoman]

But it brings up a good point. When Alex returns would you be okay with Piper lying and saying she didn't turn her in? Would you be okay if she flipped out and said "fuck you for thinking I did" and then gave her the silent treatment for thinking that? If she gave her dirty looks for laughing at her jokes because she is so pissed off that Alex would dare think she would get her locked up?

 

If after Alex found out the truth would you think it would be okay for Piper to turn it around and be furious at her for not wanting to be in a relationship?

Well, I think it would be foolish of Piper to even try to deny ratting Alex out to the cops because, let's face it, who besides Piper (not including Larry and Polly) even knew Alex was planning to skip town? Having said that, would I blame Piper for trying to do get the self-proclaimed love of her life back? Hell no! I don't think Piper will try to deny it, though, and truthfully, we don't fully know her motives for doing what she did---i.e. was it purely to protect Alex from Kubra? Was it as some measure of revenge for Alex ratting her out? Who knows?

 

Alex's motivations for lying to Piper about naming her are equally multifacted---the hurt that Alex still feels from their breakup, the anger over Piper's abandonment, the fact that Alex still loves Piper deeply and wants to rekindle their love, etc.. In other words, there is a whole weight of history with these two that impacts their decisions in the present day. For example, Alex's silent treatment and dirty looks in season 1 that you bring up--- I think those had nothing to do with Piper thinking Alex ratted her out, and everything to do with Piper abandoning Alex in Paris when Alex's mother died. I mean, can you imagine losing the two people who mean the most to you in the same day? I can't even begin to imagine the amount of pain that would cause. Surely that would impact someone's life, even 8 years later....

 

Piper didn't ask Alex to take heroin. She didn't put the needle in her arm the way Alex applied Piper's wig and handed her the suitcase. Of course, it was Piper's choice and she deserves what she got. But Alex intentionally made it happen after promising her she wouldn't have to do anything illegal. Piper didn't intentionally get Alex hooked on heroin.

There has been some talk on the online boards about Alex's reasons for asking Piper to do this. Some have suggested that Kubra forced Alex into enlisting Piper's help in order to have some leverage, should Piper have decided to leave Alex. We'll see if this speculation turns out to be true or not. Kubra did have an odd look on his face when Piper left the swimming pool in episode 2x10...

 

Her cheating on Larry was definitely selfish. But who cares? It is Larry. I mean, really, if you play that far out of your league your are going to have trouble keeping up.

LOL.

 

Piper and Alex are both selfish. Almost, everyone there is except Poussey. But Alex would never risk an additional five years in prison (maximum sentence for perjury) because Piper asked her to and looked sad. Alex would never risk going to the SHU to get someone she hated out of Psych even though it was Piper's plan originally. Alex didn't commit felonies just for Piper. That's the difference, for me. They are both selfish but Alex is seldom selfless.

Sorry, but I disagree. Alex did risky things on Piper's behalf---e.g. when she kissed Pennsatucky (in retaliation for Piper's being sent to the SHU) Bennett explicitly threatened Alex with being sent to the SHU (" Hey, knock it off! You wanna join your friend down the hill?" were his words), when she stood up for Piper when Pennsatucky was raging about losing the WAC vote to Piper in the laundry room (Alex's "I will f*ck you" speech). Also, the cornbread incident in the cafeteria--- Alex was starved out by Red as a consequence of trying to feed a near-starving Piper. As I said before, however, Alex is a survivor and she does what she needs in order to survive, but Piper is her weakness and she will stand up for her, even if it means serious consequences.

 

And I meant pathetic loser in a good way! She isn't a psychopath. She just makes very bad life decisions because she is incapable of getting over past anger and grudges. But anyone still that pissed off about a breakup (when they deserved to get dumped, especially) after eight years is definitely a pathetic loser.

Sorry, gotta disagree. Piper wounded her badly and that scar never healed because she never got a chance to discuss the breakup with Piper until they reunited in Litchfield. If Alex had some degree of closure after their breakup, I think things might have turned out a bit differently. Or not. In any case, Piper's leaving Alex in Paris seemed rather sudden; I wish the OITNB writers had written another scene showing more strain in their relationship. Having said that, I did re-watch the scene several more times and I finally see how difficult it must have been for Piper to leave Alex in Paris. Initially I thought it was easy for her to do, but the look on her face when she is leaving tells me otherwise. A great scene with Taylor and Laura in it.

I read your IMDB thread about Alex(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2372162/board/thread/239393070) and I have to agree with the "Reasons Alex Doesn't Suck". An important point that you bring up is that they are equals. I think this is one of the reasons that they are such a strong OTP, and I think we agree on that point, at least :)

Edited March 7, 2015 by TheInvisibleWoman

[CherithCutestory]

I mean, can you imagine losing the two people who mean the most to you in the same day?

 

 

If I was a drug trafficer who tried to force the only person I loved in the whole world except my mother to commit felonies on my behalf I would understand that I only have myself to blame for being alone on that day. And seek to change my behavior or accept lonlieness as the inevitable consequence of my actions.

Piper's leaving Alex in Paris seemed rather sudden;

 

Alex was pressuring her to commit more felonies. It didn't seem sudden to me. It seemed like Piper finally was doing the only sane thing. Yeah, Piper had been living off that money for awhile. Piper is a survivalist too. Far more crafty than Alex or anyone else gives her credit for. But she didn't want to do that. She had told Alex that. Alex flipped out and started calling her an asshole for not being willing to do so. She didn't want to go to prison. That's normal. Of course, she trusted the wrong person in the first place if she didn't want to go to prison.

But we have to agree to disagree on these things. I think Piper did the right thing in leaving. I think Alex only has herself to blame for being alone. It's just an opinion.

 

On a different topic, I wonder how Alex will react when she learns Piper has been with other women? I think the idea of Piper being a straight girl is key to Alex's view of what happened to them. It'll freak her out when she learns that Piper was with "hot girls" before Larry.

 

I read your IMDB thread about Alex(http://www.imdb.com/...hread/239393070) and I have to agree with the "Reasons Alex Doesn't Suck".

 

Come on, you know you agree with one or two of my Reasons Alex Sucks. I'd agree with one or two reasons why Piper sucks. Although I did not include any on my Reasons Piper Doesn't Suck thread. Not even that the Alex we know would probably rather cuddle and read with Piper than be on a beach doing X with a bunch of strangers and she seems to completely lack self-awareness about it?

Edited May 6, 2015 by CherithCutestory

[OrangeCrush]

CherithCutestory have to say I have always agreed with your assesment of Piper and her relationship with Alex. To this day I do not comprehend why people think Piper is such a horrible person. I rewatched S1 and S2 and the Piper arc and how it relates to Alex is really interesting becaue it really does show the hold Alex has on Piper and not in a good way (for Piper).

One question: Where is:

    Although I did not include any on my Reasons Piper Doesn't Suck thread.

Can't seem to find it or is it contained within another thread on this board.

Your query on how Alex will react upon learning Piper has been with other women and might just be experiencing that realization in real time i.e. Stella in S3 might be a pretty interesting arc to watch if Prepon can muster the skills to actually show talent in the acting department so Alex can display a bit more emotion than your old pet rock! People love Alex because she comes off as a sexy fox but Prepon is not known for her acting range. Hope her being exposed to that vast pool of talent on Orange will lift her performance this upcoming season.

[TheInvisibleWoman]

CherithCutestory: I had a feeling you'd post a reply after our little IMDb discussion, LOL.

 

If I was a drug trafficer who tried to force the only person I loved in the whole world except my mother to commit felonies on my behalf I would understand that I only have myself to blame for being alone on that day. And seek to change my behavior or accept lonlieness as the inevitable consequence of my actions.

 

But yeah.....you and I agree on a couple of things as to Why Piper Does and Doesn't Suck and Why Alex Does and Doesn't Suck....and I can see why you'd think Piper had good reason to dump Alex in Paris. I just feel Piper's timing was God-awful, given Alex's mother's death (and Alex being abandoned by Piper--- her words, not mine!--- literally minutes after finding out about it) ....thus my sympathy/empathy towards Alex.

 

Alex was pressuring her to commit more felonies. It didn't seem sudden to me. It seemed like Piper finally was doing the only sane thing. Yeah, Piper had been living off that money for awhile. Piper is a survivalist too. Far more crafty than Alex or anyone else gives her credit for. But she didn't want to do that. She had told Alex that. Alex flipped out and started calling her an asshole for not being willing to do so. She didn't want to go to prison. That's normal. Of course, she trusted the wrong person in the first place if she didn't want to go to prison.

But we have to agree to disagree on these things. I think Piper did the right thing in leaving. I think Alex only has herself to blame for being alone. It's just an opinion.

 

 

Of course, that's what these fan boards are all about. Now, I know I should feel empathy/sympathy towards Piper too, but somehow the way it was scripted, Piper's leaving seemed (to me) rushed and thus didn't really give Alex any time to make amends, or even figure out why Piper was so incensed at being asked to do one more drug-money-smuggling trip. I didn't see the buildup of tension, just Piper (or "Pipebomb", as some have called her) suddenly deciding to leave Alex at the mere mention of it. Yes, yes, I know it was sh!tty of Alex to ask her to do that, but (as I said my IMDb reply earlier tonight) I really don't think Alex thought it was a big deal..and yes, she took Piper's love for granted, to the extent that she thought Piper would do anything for her. So yeah, Alex's perspective was really screwed up---she loved the thrill of doing illegal stuff for big bucks---and she blew it with regard to Piper.

 

 

On a different topic, I wonder how Alex will react when she learns Piper has been with other women? I think the idea of Piper being a straight girl is key to Alex's view of what happened to them. It'll freak her out when she learns that Piper was with "hot girls" before Larry.

 

 

I think Alex was just lashing out with a cheap shot with that "straight girl" comment in Paris. I don't think she thought of Piper as being straight (or even close to it ...esp. with Piper admitting to being a "boob-touching" lesbian back in ep 2x10) so (in her mind), I think she knew that Piper leaving had zero to do with her sexual orientation and 100% to do with Alex taking Piper for granted. You can kind of see it in Alex's face after Piper says "Is that what you think this is about? That I like dick? You know, I guess that is easier than facing the fact that you are a drug dealer. And it is ruining everything good in your life.". Alex's shoulders kind of drop and her face falls and I think the truth of Piper's words hit her in the face...but at that point, Piper has already made the decision to leave and it's too late for Alex. If only those two had better communication skills with each other. Really frustrating as a Vauseman shipper to watch two intelligent characters screw up their relationship over and over again because of it (and it happens again in Chicago...jeez....).
 

 

Come on, you know you agree with one or two of my Reasons Alex Sucks. I'd agree with one or two reasons why Piper sucks. Although I did not include any on my Reasons Piper Doesn't Suck thread. Not even that the Alex we know would probably rather cuddle and read with Piper than be on a beach doing X with a bunch of strangers and she seems to completely lack self-awareness about it?

 

 

I was just thinking about that (Alex's reply to Piper's "What's the endgame here?" question) and how it would have been so incredibily easy for Alex to lie and tell Piper exactly what she wanted to hear. I don't know if Alex was being 100% honest with her answer, or if she was just PO'd at Piper for even *asking* (esp. since she had just dumped Alex again....for Larry, this time).

 

As for self-awareness, I think Alex has wayyyy more of it than Piper. Yes, Piper has grown as a character but she is still lying to herself at the end of Season 2 (in their visitation scene, she tells Alex that she hates her...when we all know she means the opposite) so she has a ways to go. I think Alex knows herself very well and knows Piper very well, too (thus her ability to see through Piper's BS, like in the scene above).

 

 

Stella in S3 might be a pretty interesting arc to watch if Prepon can muster the skills to actually show talent in the acting department so Alex can display a bit more emotion than your old pet rock! People love Alex because she comes off as a sexy fox but Prepon is not known for her acting range. Hope her being exposed to that vast pool of talent on Orange will lift her performance this upcoming season.

 

 

OrangeCrush--not sure what performance you've been watching, but I think Prepon's doing an amazing job and I think she deserves all the acting awards for her role in OITNB. I hope she gets a chance to shine again in S3 with all the dramatic stuff we saw in the trailers for the upcoming season.

Edited May 19, 2015 by TheInvisibleWoman

[angelita100]

I think the actress is good in the role. She can make me feel for her despite the fact that she's at fault for the entire messed up relationship = well 90%.  I'll give Piper 10% for some of her wishy washy behavior after they got together.

 

Edited to add: Just finished season 2 and now consider them equal for their co-dependent relationship. What a bitch move Piper.  Out of all the performances on this show though, I can't believe Prepon is the one winning awards. I'll have to look into that.

Edited June 10, 2015 by angelita100

[TheInvisibleWoman]

I think the actress is good in the role. She can make me feel for her despite the fact that she's at fault for the entire messed up relationship = well 90%.  I'll give Piper 10% for some of her wishy washy behavior after they got together.

 

Edited to add: Just finished season 2 and now consider them equal for their co-dependent relationship. What a bitch move Piper.  Out of all the performances on this show though, I can't believe Prepon is the one winning awards. I'll have to look into that.

@angelita100:

 

I see you posted this the day before Season 3 started streaming....

 

Assuming you've watched all of S3 (and I'm not, thus my avoidance of spoilers), I'm wondering if your opinion of Piper (and Alex) has changed since then . If you haven't seen it, I suggest you do so because Piper's S3 behaviour will make your head spin.

 

As for awards in their OITNB roles, Laura had one nom and one win (Satellite Award 2013, Best Supp. Actress) and Taylor had multiple noms and one win (Satellite Award-same year as LP, but in the Best Actress category). I am*really* hoping that Laura gets a ton of nominations for her work in season 3 of 'Orange' because she was a standout, I thought. I mean, I'm a fan and I think she's always great playing Alex, but this S3 was a real rollercoaster and she really brought her A game to the role.....

Edited June 13, 2015 by TheInvisibleWoman

[Mattipoo]

I think the black hair and thick drawn-on eyebrows really makes Laura Prepon very unattractive. Wish she would go back to being a redhead like she was in "That 70s Show".

[DianeDobbler]

 

 

I think a great example is the scene where they have the confrontation about Alex lying to Piper in the kitchen.  She kind of just reads the lines from one thing to the next without really connecting them all together with consistency. She doesn't play it as what is happening.  That after Piper said she loved and hated her, Alex turned it all around on Piper and magically ended up making Piper feel more guilty than angry. That she continues to make Piper out to be the bad guy for the rest of the episode, which is either delusional, narcissistic, or manipulative. I mean it is just fucking crazy to be angry at someone in their thirties for not choosing to free fall with you through life. But it is even crazier when you have just been caught lying to that person and manipulating them into feeling bad for suspecting you of something you did do. What sane person would choose Alex at that moment in time? But, as played by Prepon, what happens later has no connection to what happened before so those things get lost.  Another example is that there isn't even a hint of suggestion in the first episode of season 2 that Alex's "not holding grudges" that day coinciding with Alex needing something from Piper (perjury) isn't entirely accidental. Nor is there a hint in the acting that it is based on the fact that she was really worried about Piper when she was in the box after a really devestating incident (which would have been a positive reaction). She doesn't deliver lines poorly, at all. She isn't bad. She just sort of reads the lines without much reflection on how it is being said in response to the past or future. A better actor would definitely embrace and explore the overall character implications more and probably bring a character who is more sinister.  But would that make her actually better to watch? We have lots of great actors on this show doing interesting things. Prepon's note works. Katharine Hepburn may of had the range of A to B. But that got her four oscars. Sometimes range is overrated.

 

Really love these observations about Prepon's acting, CCstory.  Prepon doesn't create a character-objective-driven through line - at all. She doesn't make connections, as you say. This absence of intention could work either way - make Alex come off like a sociopath, since there appears to be hardly any internal reflection/connection there, or make her not a sociopath, which is what I think we've got thanks to the stuff that Prepon does hit consistently. The affection for and warmth towards Schilling's Piper, not Alex's agenda (which Prepon doesn't play) becomes the character's through line, and the fact that Prepon's on screen persona seems genuine/immature, even when on paper it could be cagey/borderline.

 

I agree that range can be overrated.