Let’s Talk About: the Social Issues Thread

[Scarlett45]

Given the subject matter of this show- a majority black strip club in the Mississippi Delta I thought a Social Issues topic would be appropriate. 
 

I cringed, cringed when that man called Autumn “red bone” (as I said in the episode). I can see how colorism is going to play in the financial success of the women at the club, given that comment as well as the comments of Corbin’s “yellow being wasted” etc. Given so many black women are involved in production I believe it will be handled authentically. 
 

Mercedes using sex work as a stepping stone to a career as a dance coach and a gym, she’s saved her money but still has complex entanglements with her Mom. You can tell Mercedes is very savvy (her comments about which men will have money to spend etc). 
 

I also appreciate that the men are nude as well as the women- equal opportunity ogling.

I’m sure I will have more comments but we have only had two episodes. 

[Scarlett45]

Bringing this thread back to the top to say that I still don’t like it that every single episode someone calls Autumn “yellow”.

1. It’s rude. 2. She’s not “yellow”. 3. I wouldn’t mind if the show addressed colorism properly because we have so many gorgeous people of all hues in the cast but this isn’t the way. 
 

Also- who knows Lil Murda/LaMarcus is gay? Keyshawn and who else? I’m waiting to see how the show reconciles his version of masculinity to Uncle Clifford’s and what that means for their relationship and going “public”. 

[luckyroll3]

On 6/20/2022 at 3:51 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Bringing this thread back to the top to say that I still don’t like it that every single episode someone calls Autumn “yellow”.

1. It’s rude. 2. She’s not “yellow”. 3. I wouldn’t mind if the show addressed colorism properly because we have so many gorgeous people of all hues in the cast but this isn’t the way. 

It kinda rings true for me. She not quite "yellow" but she's lighter than the rest of them, except for Whisper (who I think looks like a whyte walker with those eyes) and Uncle Clifford's school friend who looks like a tanned Howdy Doody (can't remember his name, but he's always talking about his daddy, his brothers, and the casino). 

[Scarlett45]

12 minutes ago, luckyroll3 said:

It kinda rings true for me. She not quite "yellow" but she's lighter than the rest of them, except for Whisper (who I think looks like a whyte walker with those eyes) and Uncle Clifford's school friend who looks like a tanned Howdy Doody (can't remember his name, but he's always talking about his daddy, his brothers, and the casino). 

Whisper does look like a white walker with those eyes! Psalm Salazar (who plays Whisper) looks so pretty in the photo in this article, I don’t know what they were going for when they styled her that way. Are those tattoos on her stomach the actor’s? So many questions.

Yes,  Dan J. Johnson (Corbin) would be “yellow” if it was appropriate to call people that in 2022, so I don’t know why someone (including Autumn/Hailey herself) hasn’t clapped back at that. Corbin has made more comments and she’s made none.
 

As mouthy as she can be, does she not because although people are being rude AF, she gets she’s in a place of privilege regarding the colorism  bias so she just takes it? 

[luckyroll3]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Whisper does look like a white walker with those eyes! Psalm Salazar (who plays Whisper) looks so pretty in the photo in this article, I don’t know what they were going for when they styled her that way.

Woah! That's a completely different person!

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, luckyroll3 said:

Woah! That's a completely different person!

I know!

[Art Of Noiz]

On 7/20/2020 at 2:58 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Given the subject matter of this show- a majority black strip club in the Mississippi Delta I thought a Social Issues topic would be appropriate. 
 

I cringed, cringed when that man called Autumn “red bone” (as I said in the episode). I can see how colorism is going to play in the financial success of the women at the club, given that comment as well as the comments of Corbin’s “yellow being wasted” etc. Given so many black women are involved in production I believe it will be handled authentically. 
 

Mercedes using sex work as a stepping stone to a career as a dance coach and a gym, she’s saved her money but still has complex entanglements with her Mom. You can tell Mercedes is very savvy (her comments about which men will have money to spend etc). 
 

I also appreciate that the men are nude as well as the women- equal opportunity ogling.

I’m sure I will have more comments but we have only had two episodes. 

Redbone usually means the person has Native American ancestry, too. That would go along with MS. Choctaw were there before Removal to OK, and some of the wealthy ones owned slaves. 

[Scarlett45]

I thought this would be an appropriate place to put this, but I think the show has tried to juggle too many plot points during this season. We have the pandemic, the casino/the mayoral race, Mercedes aging out of dancing (which I think we could keep dealing with, maybe she could own the club with Uncle Clifford, Terrika's abortion (which was the best side plot so far), KeyShawn trying to leave Derrick. This is one of those times where I think this show could benefit from 13 episodes. 

I really feel the casino/mayoral race has been shoe horned in, I get it, they wanted to bring the character of Andre back for a reason and write out Isiah Washington, but interim Mayor Kyle has been wasted, and we should get more of his interactions with Corbin, they have had one scene together and they are brothers!

[Scarlett45]

It says something about the world, when Brittany walks in on her husband (whom she was cheating on in their house, and he LEFT her) with Hailey, and the first thing she does is call Hailey “light bright”- I’m glad Hailey finally popped off on her (firstly) and secondly, your spouse cheating on you isn’t the other person’s fault (now if the other person is stalking you or something that’s a different thing). 
 

I did appreciate how Uncle Clifford pointed out that without he and Mercedes she would be DEAD, and for that she had no reason to try and sell the Pynk without her participation. Uncle Clifford and Corbin are not stupid by any means, and Hailey really under estimated their intelligence. As far as the money in the account, UC might be able to get a loan from the Kyle brothers (or a bank) for operating costs until he can get flushed again with the casino being built. 
 

I could see them flash forwarding to present day (this season took place summer 2020). 

moving the tweet above from the episode thread. I’m even more scared for KeyShawn than I was before. Derek is the abuser, yet he’s used his social power to make her look violent and emotionally unstable, so he can use their kids as pawns over her. It’s fucking disgusting. I have a much loved cousin who spent 12yrs in prison for killing her abusive husband in self defense (this was in the 80s), she’s been out longer than she was in, but seems like victims aren’t in a better place in 2022. 

[Scarlett45]

Brining over a discussion about KeyShawn and Derek from episode 10:

I may be thinking about this more deeply than the writer intended, (but maybe not, Katori Hall is brilliant), but I have noticed there is a lot of glamorization of (consentual) relationships with white men with black women. With the rampant colorism and misogyny in the black community, a lot of black women have a perception that white men will treat them better***, and for a lot of black women who have deeper complexions, there is the perception that "to a white man we are all black." where as black men and other POC think how much melanin you have is an indicator of your attractiveness. There is also a desire to have bi-racial children so that their children will be considered "attractive" no matter what. Given how GORGEOUS Keyshawn is, and yet she was bullied and harassed for her complexion, I can see this playing into her relationship with Derek. My god mother (I have mentioned her in other threads, she left me her dog), she died last year from cancer. She had THREE white husbands (they were all mentally unstable but not violent towards her), I wonder what she would say about this storyline. I wish I could ask her. 🥲

These bully abuser types want partners that are socially and physically weaker than they are (most women are physically weaker than most men, of course there are exceptions), yes, I think he genuinely liked KeyShawn when they met, but he wanted to play knight in shining armor, and let out his vent up anger since he couldn't towards his Dad (who was beating him at the time). Its like we could all see the writing on the wall! Katori Hall did a great job writing this, it feels so real. 

KeyShawn is fucking screwed over. Derek has all the power and she has none, she isn't going to leave her babies to be beaten by him (of course she shouldn't). Her only way out his is dying, or poisoning him and hoping state lines. He doesn't really have money to look for her (although his parents may help to find their grandchildren).

@FlowerofCarnage you made me think of some good talking points. 

***for the record I think humans are humans, there are loving and toxic and abusive relationships among ALL types of people. 

[Scarlett45]

Quote

l’m a little blown away but not surprised that WOC think that a white man will treat them better. I guess it is the flip side of the au courant implication that men of color would be more just if only they were in charge of society because of their experience of oppression. I think it would be the ultimate case of meet the new boss.  

Quoting @AuntieMame from the episode thread. Yes this is a thing. And for women of ADOS background (American Descendants of Slavery) there is so much history of relationships with white men being NON consensual, and the children from these unions being a result of rape/assault that its really a multi-layered issue. Post desegregation, now black women can CHOOSE to be a a partnership with a white man, not just the mistress/side piece but a wife, with all of the social and legal protections of a wife.(and yes I noticed that Derek didn't offer to marry KeyShawn, yet he lives off of the money she makes with her beauty and talent! ummmmhmmmm) Corbin's mother was a victim of assault and violence and has to live with that trauma, but Corbin gets to benefit financially (his father did acknowledge him and leave him a nice inheritance), Corbin is a contemporary of Uncle Clifford, so this was 40yrs years go, desegregation was only 60yrs ago, and they live in a teeny little town in Mississippi. 

Have you heard the phrase "black men don't hate the white patriarchy, just their place in it"? There is also the discussion of black women not hating the white patriarchy, but wanting to be the "prize" the way that white women are the "prize" to be protected by the group of men with the status and power. Oh its is a DISCUSSION. I am glad we are having this discussion, but its a thing.

[AuntieMame]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Quoting @AuntieMame from the episode thread. Yes this is a thing. And for women of ADOS background (American Descendants of Slavery) there is so much history of relationships with white men being NON consensual, and the children from these unions being a result of rape/assault that its really a multi-layered issue. Post desegregation, now black women can CHOOSE to be a a partnership with a white man, not just the mistress/side piece but a wife, with all of the social and legal protections of a wife.(and yes I noticed that Derek didn't marry KeyShawn, yet he lives off of the money she makes with her beauty and talent! ummmmhmmmm) Corbin's mother was a victim of assault and violence and has to live with that trauma, but Corbin gets to benefit financially (his father did acknowledge him and leave him a nice inheritance), Corbin is a contemporary of Uncle Clifford, so this was 40yrs years go, desegregation was only 60yrs ago, and they live in a teeny little town in Mississippi. 

Have you heard the phrase "black men don't hate the white patriarchy, just their place in it"? There is also the discussion of black women not hating the white patriarchy, but wanting to be the "prize" the way that white women are the "prize" to be protected by the group of men with the status and power. Oh its is a DISCUSSION. I am glad we are having this discussion, but its a thing.

Oh yes, I’ve heard that phrase. I agree with that phrase. Speaking of thorny, multifactorial issues the combination of oppression and control and male privilege when applied to American black men, especially descendants of slavery is another one of those things people don’t want to talk about. 
Just for the record, white women aren’t protected prizes to be cherished except when it is a tactic to keep other people in their place. Not in terms of lived experience. In lived experience we’re expected to be Stepford Bangmaids and objects. I do see what it looks like from the perspective of woc and it makes me so sad because it keeps women divided and conflicted about where their loyalties are supposed to be and we are ALL expected to give loyalty and service to “our” men. My personal loyalties are always with other women but even for me that creates conflict with my female socialization.  

I’m glad we’re talking about this too because it needs to be talked about but our history in this country is so close, barely out of living memory as you point out. Nor do I think things have changed as much as we would all like to believe. Otherwise we wouldn’t need the authoritarian newspeak to enforce it.  

As for Derrick living off of Keyshawn’s work and talent, this is such a common pattern with men even though men still own 99% of the planet’s land and own and control 97% of everything else worth owning and controlling and men still harvest women for everything they can get. That race is an additional factor with Derrick and Keyshawn (who is in an exploitative industry of the global sex trade) just adds another layer of awful. 

 

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, AuntieMame said:

Just for the record, white women aren’t protected prizes to be cherished except when it is a tactic to keep other people in their place. Not in terms of lived experience. In lived experience we’re expected to be Stepford Bangmaids and objects. I do see what it looks like from the perspective of woc and it makes me so sad because it keeps women divided and conflicted about where their loyalties are supposed to be and we are ALL expected to give loyalty and service to “our” men. My personal loyalties are always with other women but even for me that creates conflict with my female socialization.  

Oh yes, I KNOW this, but try getting other ADOS women to believe it! (it is a discussion! I am loving that phrase today)

2 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

As for Derrick living off of Keyshawn’s work and talent, this is such a common pattern with men even though men still own 99% of the planet’s land and own and control 97% of everything else worth owning and controlling and men still harvest women for everything they can get. That race is an additional factor with Derrick and Keyshawn (who is in an exploitative industry of the global sex trade) just adds another layer of awful. 

I know. I cannot! Of course we all hate Derek with a power of a thousand setting suns because he is an awful human being, but from the optics of the show, Derek is supposed to be providing for KeyShawn! He's the young abled bodied white guy! Why would she put up with his racist ass family and all the drama that comes with that, if he wasn't a good provider, kind, loving towards her. He is not even taking charge of all of the domestic duties, he is beating their kids.

There is also a discussion among ADOS women that white men have more resources and are better providers, and thus are a better option for partners. I could see a lot of ADOS women over looking Derek's initial BS because of the bias that white men are "better" and "richer". (I mean yes, statistically white men have more funds, but not all white men are well off, duh)

What is he giving her? NOTHING, (just her kids whom of course she loves because those are her babies). Another black woman being exploited and abused- breaks my heart it does, but its so real. I am glad Katori is such a wonderful writer in how she has written KeyShawn as a character.

Another thing- if KeyShawn had not conceived Regan, she couldve gotten away from Derek a long time ago. Likely Derek would've gone away to college and they would've broken up. This is why contraceptive options are so important for ALL young women. When its just "you" you can usually get out of a bad situation, or get someone to help you- with a baby you are trapped (legally, socially, logistically, economically). In a social group unrelated to this one, look at how the young women in the FLDS are married off as teens and trapped because they are mothers at 16/18. 

Lets look at Mercedes- Cortez (the scum bag that he was) did take custody of Terrika and his wife DID agree to raise and support the girl. What would Mercedes have done if Cortez didnt, or when he died Shelle dropped Terrika off on her doorstep and Patrice kicked her out? No way would Merecedes have made all the progress she made and be stable at 30 if she had to care for Terrika without support as a teenager. (yes I know there are exceptional women that do it, Im talking about this particular character's circumstance)

[Scarlett45]

Quote

Another thing we don’t like to talk about? Reaction to being abused often splits based on sex role socialization with men identifying with power and the abuser and becoming abusers themselves and women identifying with the victim and slotting into the role of the abused. Worse, we all tie ourselves in knots making excuses for the abusers. I’m with you in hitting a baby not to mention your own baby. There is no excuse. 

So much this. Derek knows better. He does. He isn't even trying. The SECOND he put his hands on KeyShawn when she was pregnant he could've gotten himself a free hotline. OR he could've stopped drinking. They got together in what, 2017 ish?

If he was frustrated with the babies while she was on the road he could've put the baby in the crib and sat in the car until he calmed down. Yes, lots of kids get nursemaids elbow, from playing- that may have been an accident. But he BEAT HIM. You know how much force it takes for people with melanin to bruise like that? He beat the baby over and over again. 

NO EXCUSES FOR ANYONE who acts like that. You hurt your own innocent babies you are the scum of the earth, full stop.

[AuntieMame]

Just a quick point regarding women actually owning our own bodies and full reproductive and bodily sovereignty vis a vis the FLDS. It isn’t just the FLDS by a long shot. I live in the Mormon Corridor (long story and I’m oftentimes bemused by the strange twists life takes) and I can name a dozen women of my acquaintance who had babies and were married off by 17. Not just LDS either because the church runs the government and society around here. You are affected no matter what your personal beliefs. 

God the disillusionment when ADOS women discover that white men are just men and they aren’t treated any better as a class. The underlying assumptions are worse too because women who looked like you were chattel slaves not that long ago and no woman owns her own body even before Roe fell. Urph. I have to go face my day. Not looking forward to it. More this evening. I’m enjoying our talk so much. Thank you @Scarlett45

[Avaleigh]

Not sure if this is the right place for this topic, but I've been reading about this show since I got turned onto it and one criticism that I noticed Katori address in the Twitterverse is the Mississippi dialect. Apparently there are some people who don't feel it's an accurate depiction of the Delta dialect and I'm curious to know what others think. 

For my part, the language was one of the most intriguing aspects of the series. I love listening to the various regional accents in the south, so I was surprised to learn that some residents of Mississippi weren't necessarily happy with it. I've never been to Mississippi, so I guess that they'd know much better than I do. At the same time some of the expressions at least do strike me as somewhat accurate. Two of my grandparents were from Louisiana and I definitely noticed some dialect similarities. Not the exact same of course, but comparable enough to mention. 

Also, I admit that I understood Katori's POV when she said that she thinks it should be okay for an actor who isn't from Mississippi to play a character who is from Mississippi. Half of the challenge and fun of acting is taking on a character who doesn't act or sound like you. 

[Scarlett45]

@Avaleigh I think honoring the language of a group of people you’re portraying is important on screen- BUT I don’t think every single actor has to actually be from Mississippi to represent the area accurately. I could understand the criticism of hiring a better vocal coach, to make sure that the language represented the characters but not that you have to be FROM a specific area to play the part well. 

[luckyroll3]

The dialect seems decent. I'm from the Caribbean, so I get the criticism, particularly when every Caribbean person on TV/in Movies speaks with a Jamaican accent or some non-descript Caribbean accent. I think everyone, with the exception of the actress playing Hailey, has been doing an amazing job. She doesn't do a good job of holding the accent. But apparently she's British, so she has to work overtime! 😂

[Avaleigh]

4 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

The dialect seems decent.

This is more what I was wondering about as far as viewer impressions. I'm curious if we have any southerners here are watching the show and how the accent sounds to them. 

Uncle Clifford's accent is probably the most exaggerated, but she's a character who is meant to be extra and OTT.

4 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

I think everyone, with the exception of the actress playing Hailey, has been doing an amazing job. She doesn't do a good job of holding the accent. But apparently she's British, so she has to work overtime!

Ah, that explains why her accent is so uneven. At first I thought it had to do with how she decided to play the character as being mysterious in terms of us not knowing where she's from and having a lack of emotion due to repressing what happened to her daughter, but I guess part of her being so reserved is because the accent is a struggle at times and the flat notes are probably easier to achieve. 

Damson Idris is a British actor who absolutely nailed his American accent in the show Snowfall. I remember being blown away when I learned that he was British. With Elarica my reaction was more like 'Oh, that's why she sounds like that!'

On 6/20/2022 at 12:51 PM, Scarlett45 said:

It’s rude. 2. She’s not “yellow”. 3. I wouldn’t mind if the show addressed colorism properly because we have so many gorgeous people of all hues in the cast but this isn’t the way. 

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread yet because I haven't finished season two yet but I just wanted to touch on this a little bit.

It *is* rude and I sometimes feel like some of the characters on the show think it's okay to speak to Hailey in a way that is extremely derogatory because she had the both good and bad luck to be born with that skin color. Depending on where a person is on the color spectrum there is a misconception that life is easier if a person is a certain shade and each shade comes with its own challenges, so I appreciate that the show has explored this a little bit. Obviously they're only touching on it rather than doing a deep dive because this is supposed to be entertainment at the end of the day, but I'm glad that they're at least acknowledging that this subject is very real and can be incredibly damaging and has been damaging for centuries. 

[Scarlett45]

8 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

It *is* rude and I sometimes feel like some of the characters on the show think it's okay to speak to Hailey in a way that is extremely derogatory because she had the both good and bad luck to be born with that skin color. Depending on where a person is on the color spectrum there is a misconception that life is easier if a person is a certain shade and each shade comes with its own challenges, so I appreciate that the show has explored this a little bit. Obviously they're only touching on it rather than doing a deep dive because this is supposed to be entertainment at the end of the day, but I'm glad that they're at least acknowledging that this subject is very real and can be incredibly damaging and has been damaging for centuries. 

Yes. I talk about this a little bit more in the rest of the thread but I agree with you.