Charmed - General Discussion

[Pearson80]

15 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

I would have loved episodes that explored their past lives as Warren/Halliwell witches. As I'm typing this out, an episode that actually showed when their line made that switch in their name could have been wonderful. Paige also never met Melinda. Maybe Melinda's daughter could have been Paige's first past life. I also would have liked an episode where an evil Warren witch is in possession of the Book of Shadows and the Warren cousins (Piper, Phoebe, and Paige's past lives) have to get the book from her. I want this mostly because Bride and Gloom showed that there are evil spells in the Book of Shadows. Someone had to write those spells, and I would like to see how the book changes depending on whether the Warren possessor is good or evil. (Technically we could have seen this in Chris Cross since Wyatt as the oldest Halliwell should be the possessor and thus the book should be evil. Who knows at this point? I'm certain the writers didn't.)

 

In Bride and Gloom, the book of shadows had evil spells because the book was turning evil like the sisters.  Remember Prue was kidnapped  by a warlock and a dark priestess cast a spell on Prue that would turn her and her other sisters evil and the book being an extension of them would turn evil in order for an evil being to get it.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by Pearson80

[4evaQuez]

41 minutes ago, Pearson80 said:

In Bride and Gloom, the book of shadows had evil spells because the book was turning evil like the sisters.  Remember Prue was kidnapped  by a warlock and a dark priestess cast a spell on Prue that would turn her and her other sisters evil and the book being an extension of them would turn evil in order for an evil being to get it.  

Yes, I remember. But someone would still have to write those evil spells. We were specifically told several times through the series that Warren witches added to the book. It was never stated that only good Warren witches added to the book. We also know that Phoebe's past life was evil. I always assumed that meant evil Warren witches added to the book, too, and the book transformed good or evil based on whether the Warren witch in possession was good or evil.

Piper specifically says in that episode that several of the spells in the book were not there before. Leo also seems confused by the book in this episode and also comments about some type of good magical creature killing spell he sees that shouldn't be there. During the first 3 seasons, the book was stated to be an extension of the Warren witch possessing it, so I thought it meant that in Bride and Gloom they were seeing the spells of the evil Warren witches before them.

Sadly, it the few episodes about evil Warrens, I don't think it's specifically stated. I can't remember if Phoebe's past life is ever seen with the book. Was she after the book? I just remember her wanting to kill her cousins. I can't remember the motive behind it.

In Chris Crossed, Chris uses a spell to transport the book back into the attic. I assumed the book was with Wyatt, especially since he comes not long after. I'm pretty sure Wyatt even touches the book in that episode. There are two Warrens in the same room representing opposing forces and the book seems to instantly change for the Warren that has it in its immediate possession since the book is repelled by neither Warren.

During Long Live the Queen, I pretty sure we never see Phoebe alone with the book. It would be interesting if the book repelled her since the oldest Warren, i.e. Piper, is good, or if it transformed to evil since Phoebe is still a Warren. Bride and Gloom doesn't actually answer that question since all three are evil. Does the book change per Warren or does it go by the eldest Warren? Based on the episodes we have, I assume the former, but it would have been nice to have a definitive answer.

Lastly, responding to this made me wonder something else about the book, who started it? Did Melinda start it? I think I vaguely remember her commenting on how big the book has gotten in The Witch is Back, but I'm not certain if I'm remembering correctly.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by 4evaQuez

[Pearson80]

36 minutes ago, 4evaQuez said:

Yes, I remember. But someone would still have to write those evil spells. We were specifically told several times through the series that Warren witches added to the book. It was never stated that only good Warren witches added to the book. We also know that Phoebe's past life was evil. I always assumed that meant evil Warren witches added to the book, too, and the book transformed good or evil based on whether the Warren witch in possession was good or evil.

Piper specifically says in that episode that several of the spells in the book were not there before. Leo also seems confused by the book in this episode and also comments about some type of good magical creature killing spell he sees that shouldn't be there. During the first 3 seasons, the book was stated to be an extension of the Warren witch possessing it, so I thought it meant that in Bride and Gloom they were seeing the spells of the evil Warren witches before them.

Sadly, it the few episodes about evil Warrens, I don't think it's specifically stated. I can't remember if Phoebe's past life is ever seen with the book. Was she after the book? I just remember her wanting to kill her cousins. I can't remember the motive behind it.

In Chris Crossed, Chris uses a spell to transport the book back into the attic. I assumed the book was with Wyatt, especially since he comes not long after. I'm pretty sure Wyatt even touches the book in that episode. There are two Warrens in the same room representing opposing forces and the book seems to instantly change for the Warren that has it in its immediate possession since the book is repelled by neither Warren.

During Long Live the Queen, I pretty sure we never see Phoebe alone with the book. It would be interesting if the book repelled her since the oldest Warren, i.e. Piper, is good, or if it transformed to evil since Phoebe is still a Warren. Bride and Gloom doesn't actually answer that question since all three are evil. Does the book change per Warren or does it go by the eldest Warren? Based on the episodes we have, I assume the former, but it would have been nice to have a definitive answer.

Lastly, responding to this made me wonder something else about the book, who started it? Did Melinda start it? I think I vaguely remember her commenting on how big the book has gotten in The Witch is Back, but I'm not certain if I'm remembering correctly.

 

The book of Shadows was created by Melinda Warren who started the line. Only good witches wrote spells in the book.  Constance was clear that only good witches and good people could touch it.  I have no idea if evil human beings could touch it though since we never saw the sisters going up against an evil human, other than Pratt in season 2 in the future. 

In Bride and Gloom, the book turned evil because a spell was cast on Prue via her blood that would corrupt the other sisters because they are connected via the power of 3.  The evil priestess wanted the book, once the book turned evil she could touch it and possess it.  If the sisters are good then the book is good, if all three sisters are evil then it will be evil..

When Phoebe turned evil with Cole, she chose to become evil, it was her choice and that had nothing to do with Piper and Paige.  The show backtracked later on by saying that the baby and the seer turned her evil.   It was a cowardly move since they did not want to deal with the fallout with Phoebe choosing evil over her sisters.  If Constance was writing the evil Phoebe storyline with an alive Prue, I am pretty sure that there would have been consequences not only for Phoebe but also for Prue Piper and the power of 3.

The Evil Phoebe storyline should have happened in season 5 as the centennial episode with Prue and Piper going up against her.   The Evil Phoebe should have also been longer than it was since Phoebe was only evil for 1 episode. I thought Alyssa played the hell out of Evil Phoebe and we should have seen more. I got chills when Phoebe touched the grimoire affirming her evilness and the look on her face was scary. Piper looked bewildered and Paige looked on in shocked..

Edited February 6, 2022 by Pearson80

[Spartan Girl]

An actual Evil Phoebe storyline would have been better than anything in the final three seasons.

[Primal Slayer]

Im actually on Bride and Gloom in my rewatch so seeing this conversation is funny. 

I really wonder what the writers were thinking in terms of Prues love life this season. They gave like 4 different love interests. 1 was this great connection from the past. One she kept standing up. Then there's Justin who gets a 3 episode arc and I liked Justin. And of course the bad boy that Astral Prue gets with that goes nowhere. Were one of them supposed to stick had Shannen not get fired during the hiatus? 

Piper attempting to have a normal wedding, with actual guests, planners was a good change of pace as we know none of them ever have normal weddings. Shame it couldnt happen though. 

This season is definitely the strongest in terms of continuity. They reference past events A LOT throughout the season. Sometime, I'll have to look at the writers from S3 compared to other seasons. 

[4evaQuez]

1 hour ago, Pearson80 said:

The book of Shadows was created by Melinda Warren who started the line. Only good witches wrote spells in the book.  Constance was clear that only good witches and good people could touch it.  I have no idea if evil human beings could touch it though since we never saw the sisters going up against an evil human, other than Pratt in season 2 in the future. 

In Bride and Gloom, the book turned evil because a spell was cast on Prue via her blood that would corrupt the other sisters because they are connected via the power of 3.  The evil priestess wanted the book, once the book turned evil she could touch it and possess it.  If the sisters are good then the book is good, if all three sisters are evil then it will be evil..

 

I believe you. Is it stated in an episode that only good witches wrote spells in the book? I'm assuming this would have to be a Season 1 or 2 episode.

As we all know, by Season 3, Constance had a lot less power. This is obviously when Bride and Gloom aired. I wonder if this was a change Kern made to the mythos as we do specifically see evil spells in the book of shadows in that episode and Leo and Piper comment on it. In Chris Crossed, long after Constance has been ejected from the show, we see an evil Wyatt touch the book and its in his possession. If he can touch and possess the book, why wouldn't he be able to add to the book? Again, I'm not saying you're wrong because Charmed wasn't particularly clear with its mythos, but Kern obviously had different ideas for the book and how it functioned via the Warren line.

As for your question regarding evil humans touching the book, I can't specifically answer that question as I don't believe the show does. However, in Exit Strategy, Phoebe refuses to give Cole the power stripping potion because she believes he's trying to trick some amulet that can't be used by evil. Sometimes Charmed conflated an "innocent" with a human. Like in The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell when the headless horseman kills a criminal. He's still referred to as an innocent since he's mortal. Who actually knows what the show was thinking?

There's also an episode I can't recall which right now, where Phoebe and Cole are having a discussion near the book. Cole stays very far away, and he mentions the last time he was near it he was almost electrocuted to death. (That was actually because of the crystals and not the book. Apparently Cole didn't know or remember this) Phoebe replies that the book knows he's good now or whatever she says and that won't happen again. He never gets closer, so we can't actually say how the book will respond.

[Primal Slayer]

Id say a corrupt witch isn't necessarily the same as an outright evil witch. For all we know there was a Warren witch somewhere that wrote some harsher spells and really tip toed the line between good/evil. 

[Pearson80]

7 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

As we all know, by Season 3, Constance had a lot less power. This is obviously when Bride and Gloom aired. I wonder if this was a change Kern made to the mythos as we do specifically see evil spells in the book of shadows in that episode and Leo and Piper comment on it. In Chris Crossed, long after Constance has been ejected from the show, we see an evil Wyatt touch the book and its in his possession. If he can touch and possess the book, why wouldn't he be able to add to the book? Again, I'm not saying you're wrong because Charmed wasn't particularly clear with its mythos, but Kern obviously had different ideas for the book and how it functioned via the Warren line.

 

Once Kern took over he basically ignored everything that Constance had established in previous seasons.  I always assumed that since Wyatt was so powerful and stronger than the power of 3, he could bend the book of shadows to his will.

[Primal Slayer]

I love Pre-Witched. Getting to spend so much time with Grams was always a treat. 

It's always interesting that she was willing to stop them from becoming Charmed. She wanted them to come together naturally instead of thinking of telling them the truth and training them herself. Her telling the girls that the attic is sealed off for 20 years...she must've been really good at sneaking in/out of there lol.

Piper thinking of moving out was a good subplot, only makes Phoebe look even worse come a year later where she is willing to move out when Prues death is still fairly fresh, not even a year out. Had Prue not died it would've been interesting to see them tackle this storyline again. 

[Primal Slayer]

Exit Strategy is another one of those: good ideas that should've been a bigger story.

We have witches who are sworn to use/protect these powerful amulets but the amulets cant fend off Balthazar and the witches have no extra umph to fend off a demon like him. This could've been a whole arc within itself. Even introducing witches who come against TCO while hunting down and trying to vanquish Cole themselves. 

[4evaQuez]

Cheaper by the Coven

I haven't finished watching the entire season yet, and as you all know, I usually do this at the end. However, I finished watching Cheaper by the Coven for the first time in years, and I never realized how rich this episode was. From the story, to the acting, and even the directing: this episode is truly a history of the Charmed familial dynamics in one episode.

I actually think if this could have been produced by Constance and her team - in this scenario SD is still gone and RM is around for the sake of keeping the dynamics the same - I think this episode would easily be ranked as a top 10 episode of Charmed in the Charmed verse.

Unfortunately, Constance and her team are long gone, the show has no similarity to Charmed Seasons 1 - 4, and the show and especially this episode is so tonally inconsistent that it's hard to remember these characters are supposed to be people navigating their rich and turbulent lives.

First, the tonal inconsistency could cause stage 15 whiplash. The episode switches between outlandish, family drama, cartoonish, fanciful, and emotionally grounded with no transition whatsoever. One perfect example is a conversation between Grams/Piper. The two are discussing their lives as witches, and Piper brings up losing Patty and Prue, her husband's insanity, and the many demons that are after her and her children. It is a beautifully acted moment from both actresses. However, it's also difficult to take it completely seriously since Piper is a metaphorical 3 year old - complete with childish voice - in the moment and it's immediately followed by wacky hijinks in the parlor.

2B -Grams also brings up something about Piper I never realized until Gram comments. She tells Piper that being a witch is what made Piper strong enough to handle the many hardships in life. At first, I wanted to scoff, but I had to pause my DVD to really ask myself if that's true. Personally, I think that's usually the mark of a good episode that's been running for 7 seasons at this point in the rewatch.

While doing so, I actually agreed with Grams. Piper in Prewitched and even the premiere is mostly invisible. She is so overshadowed by three strong personalities (Grams, Prue, and Phoebe) that she doesn't even have a chance to develop her own personality. Even in Prewitched, she waits for Grams to give her the opportunity to speak about her experience with living with the overbearing Prue and the irresponsible Phoebe. She even apologizes for simply having feelings. Without Grams present in Season 1, we actually don't get to hear much from Piper regarding her feelings of Prue and Phoebe regarding how they treat her versus how they treat each other. Over the course of the first season, we do see Piper getting stronger, and I would say it's specifically because of her witch heritage.

First, I know I've said telekinesis is the power of leadership as seen through the main characters and supporting character who have it (Prue, Paige, Grams). However, I actually do think Piper's freezing power allowed her to find her voice. During the first season, there are several moments where she is freezing her love interest of the episode, her boss, a cruel colleague, etc. to help her determine her emotions, her voice, and her response. Even the first time she uses it with Jeremy, she immediately tells herself to think about the best response and then act on that response. This is of course for literal survival, but I think she does use her power to think and then act on her response which naturally allows her to be more assertive. Instead of becoming invisible and just letting the other person overrule her, Piper freezes, checks in with herself, and then unfreezes and advocates for her needs and wants.

The truth spell episode of Season 1 also supports this. Her boss tells her that he takes advantage of her because she allows it. She goes off on him. The spell wears off, but Piper is still able to advocate for herself because her witchcraft has allowed her to see how she plays a role in her victimization at work and in life. I would argue being a witch was instrumental for Piper to leave Quake and be confident enough to start P3 or even go against the rules of the Elders. We know Piper never had a rebellious stage. With Grams, teenage Prue and teenage Phoebe in the house, I doubt anyone would have noticed. Being compliant and the peacemaker and the perpetual victim for Grams was the only way Piper was going to get any attention in that house. 

Earlier I talked about Prue's death and Paige's inclusion in Piper's life being important for her becoming stronger, but I think I overlooked how much Piper was growing as an individual long before either of those occurrences. 

Speaking of, it's also interesting how Piper immediately regresses to the peacemaker role between Grams and Victor, and this is before the sibling rivalry spell is cast.

Grams and Victor - I loved seeing these two interact. I actually think this is the first time we to see them interact at length and their relationship is one of the main focuses of the episode instead of a B plot. 

I actually think it's in character for what we've seen. Grams is at first shocked to see Victor, but she doesn't seem particularly angry or even upset. Just taken aback. Victor immediately greets Grams with hostility. This is consistent with Sympathy for the Demon in Season 5. Unlike Season 5, we get to explore the dynamic beyond the quick interaction. 

The two are mostly snippy and passive aggressive with each other, but they actually seem to be trying to work together for the girls. Something I really liked is when Grams introduces the little black book of spells that she cast on the girls as children.  Unfortunately, the show plays it as comedic relief with the music cue, but the actress plays Grams as quite hurt in this moment under Grams grandiosity. She talks about being a single mother to her grandchildren because her daughter was dead and Victor wasn't around. I wish the show could have played this as more straight. I remember when I first watched this episode; I thought it was out of character for Grams to so flippantly cast spells on the girls when we saw in That 70s Episode and Prewitched just how much thought and conflict Grams had regarding binding the girls' powers. Patty was a large thought partner in both episodes regarding what should be her/Grams' position. And she seemed emotionally devastated at the end of Prewitched at the thought of stripping the girls' powers. Now we're supposed to believe Grams is just casting spells on them all free without thinking of the consequences.

However, this time, I thought the actress showed just how overwhelmed Grams was at the moment, and it did make it more believable. Granted the show didn't actually explore it, but I thought the actress did just enough to show Grams may have done this out of desperation and not just pride or a God complex.

I was also shocked that Victor mostly followed Grams' decisions. He had reservations and shared those reservations, but he mostly let Grams make all the decisions regarding the girls and witchcraft. It's not until Grams attacks Leo after the Magic School incident that Victor turns against Grams. He pushes aside all the hostility he has for Leo becomes he connects with Leo as a father who he sees Grams is trying to kick out of the boys' life. Again, the moment ends with Grams/Victor being on the same side against Leo, but Victor is determined to not let history repeat itself for him. He demands Grams resurrects Patty.

I loved the scene of the three arguing and Patty/Victor choosing what's best for the girls. Mainly because Patty uses the trump card, "we are their parents." You can see the monumental pain in Grams eyes because while that is literally true, Grams is their parent in every way that actually matters. Regardless of whatever transpired between Grams/Victor, Victor chose to leave. Grams chose to stay. Grams raised the girls. Again, this is something that could have been rich. It was not.

Patty/Victor/Paige - As you see, I'm mainly been saying "the girls" as that's what the show says. The show really is doing everything in its power to not mention the pink elephant in the room wearing a green tutu. Paige is not Victor and Patty's daughter together. This is where Paige's disruptive quality adds so much beautiful tension to the Charmed verse that they refuse to acknowledge. 

The show outright states that Paige is the one who called and invited Victor to the house. WHAT?! Why is this not commented on by the actual characters. Again, as I said in Season 5, I'm not sure what I want from the Paige/Victor dynamic, but I know it's not what the show gives me. Paige and Victor are comfortable with each other enough that Paige calls him and he answers. And he comes to the house no questions asked. Piper has to inform Victor why he's there.

For literal years, the girls (Prue/Piper/Phoebe) had no idea what part of the earth Victor was living on at one point or another. Phoebe literally hid chatting with him for months from her sisters. Piper is frantically accosting a stranger because she believes he may be her father. She outright comments that the only picture she has of him is years old. Since Victor walked out on Piper for the last time sometime in her preteens based on Sympathy for the Demon, it would have been a more than decade old photo. Prue outright insults Phoebe in Power Outage saying the one thing Phoebe inherited from their father is his ability to abandon them. Why don't Piper/Phoebe have any feelings whatsoever regarding Paige so casually calling Victor and him so casually coming. Piper didn't even realize Paige called until Victor was in the house. This isn't Paige's fault, but sadly, it seems that she should be the recipient of that rage. This should stir up some resentments. In an episode all about sibling rivalry, the show never even alludes to Piper/Phoebe having any feelings of hurt directed at Paige because she can so casually call their father in a way that they still cannot. It's all the stranger because we don't even really see Paige/Victor interact in this episode.

The show also gives Victor/Patty all these beautiful moments regarding what could have been. They outright say that neither got to experience the girls as teenagers. (The show keeps saying they are teenagers even though they are acting like 3 year olds. More on that later). They are even wistful about what could have been had they stayed together. There is no literal mention of how Paige's existence destroys that fantasy.

Near the end of the episode, Victor/Patty/Piper/Phoebe are discussing the night terrors Piper had when Victor/Patty got divorced and how she blamed herself. Victor discusses that there were "other things" that caused the divorce. The show immediately cuts to Paige. RM gives a rather conflicted look. One of mostly hurt as she understands that Sam and thus her existence are the "other things" that caused the divorce.

Lastly, the show made a very peculiar directing and blocking choice. Patty is at the book of shadows looking wistful and regretful, she and Victor discuss how they wish they could have raised their children together. The implication being they wished they never divorced. It ends with the two of them holding hands and smiling at each other. The sisters, Leo, Grams and the boys all enter the scene. The camera closes in on Patty and Victor smiling and holding hands like a happy couple. As the camera pans out, Paige is the first person we see with the two. So Patty and Victor are smiling and holding hands, and Paige is standing next to Victor. The three are the only three in the camera for what seems like longer than it actually was. It was just such a peculiar directing and blocking choice with everything I know about the dynamic, the history, the implications Victor and Patty are making. I mean if Victor and Patty had stayed together, Paige either won't exist or Victor would have had to raise a child from an affair. Considering the hostility Victor directs at Grams and Leo, I can't imagine Victor being a good father to Paige. He wasn't even a good father to his biological children. Again, the show never explores this dynamic.

Piper/Phoebe/Paige - Again, so many acting choices that shows RM and HMC understand their characters. AM, when separated from the baby voice, Leslie, and the column, actually gets a chance to show us the Phoebe of Seasons 1 and 2 that I've missed dearly.

First is when Grams corporealizes. RM makes this acting choice that says so much about how Paige sees her place in the family. Grams moves forward with her arms outstretched. Paige initially starts to reach out her arms for Grams and smiles, but Grams embraces Phoebe first. RM then brings her arms back to herself and does something awkward I can't really explain. However, it's like if you've ever seen someone waiving at you, you waive back enthusiastically, but then you realize they are waving to someone behind you. You then bring your arms back in a way to both save yourself from embarrassment and nurture your pride. It's very subtle, and not even the focus of the shot, but it's really effective for what's about to happen in the rest of the episode. 

I'll also say I think it's natural for Grams to embrace Phoebe first. Phoebe is the granddaughter she actually raised. I assume Grams was there for the birth. And Phoebe is now the granddaughter I'm certain Grams always wanted her to be. Not defiant, successful, mostly level headed, well employed. There has to be some catharsis for Grams in this moment, too. However, I also understand how this history between Grams/Phoebe that Paige is not a part of can also be hurtful for her in this moment, too. 

Later is a moment with Patty and Piper/Phoebe/Paige. Again, I think the actresses make some really good choices based on character history. Piper and Phoebe immediately run to Patty and grab her arm and leg when they first see her. Paige is a little more hesitant and waits for Piper/Phoebe to have their "rightful?" claim to Patty. Victor is smiling at the three in the background. Paige keeps a little bit of a distance and has a pained expression on her face like she doesn't know how to interact with Patty since this is a Bennett/Halliwell family moment. Paige simply just plays with her own hair a little distant from everyone else. Patty notices Paige, and reaches out her hands to cups Paige's face. Paige gives Patty what feels like a very private smile even though three other people are in the room. Victor/Piper/Phoebe seem to be ignorant of this moment, and in this moment all of Patty's attention is on Paige. Again, the actresses FH and RM do so much to tell us a story of regret, loss, and this fleeting chance at what never was but could have been. This moment also shows us that Patty has no regrets regarding Paige's existence even though we never get dialogue stating this. I also like this protective moment between Grams and Paige when they first see the Leo demon. Grams immediately protectively grabs Paige. Again, so much to explore there especially considering the way Grams embraced Phoebe first earlier in the episode.

Continuing on Piper/Phoebe/Paige - There's another moment near the conclusion of the episode when the spell has been taken off by Patty. The three are sitting on the ground outside Wyatt's room waiting for the "demon." Again, there is this significant tonal change because it feels like a 4th Season episode. It's gloomy and intimate and emotionally bare. The three are directly in front of the camera and the light specifically illuminates their faces.

Season 1 and 2 Phoebe makes an appearance. AM drops the baby voice and her posture is downbeat and defeated. She refuses to look at her scene partners in this dejected manner. She askes Piper does she ever wish their parents could have raised them together. There is an emotion and sadness in Phoebe I hadn't heard since the 4th Season. A regret of the girl whose parents were taken from her and the woman who has to deal with those consequences. Piper immediately says everyday of her life. They are not blaming witchcraft or a lack of a normal life or babies or dates for their predicament. It feels like early Season 1 were sisters are discussing their very real pain and are leaning on each other for support.

What I like about this scene is the placement. Piper and Phoebe are sitting right next to each other, and Paige is just a little separated from them. When Piper answers the question, Paige makes this eyeroll and almost dismissive hand movement - it's a very small hand movement so it's not dismissive of their experience or even combative, but I do think it's emotionally dismissive because Piper/Phoebe are being emotionally dismissive of Paige. Again, if Patty/Victor stayed together, there is a question of whether you even want Paige to exist. The three then silently deliver a performance that I literally had to pause to absorb.

Phoebe is still downtrodden and looking at the floor in a very childish early Season 1 Phoebe way, Piper is looking in Wyatt's room with this mixture of strength and worry and hopelessness that feels very true to Piper's current character, Paige is frowning and looking away from the sisters in a very Season 4 Paige way. The sisters seem so separate and emotionally devastated because of how the Charmed familial dynamic is impacting their current reality. 

The moment really showed me why I loved this show even the weaker later seasons so much. The actresses - when given a chance - can really carry the show in that way late 90s / early 00s actors/actresses could. They are filled with charisma, this mixture of glamour and relatability, and the three never stop acting even when they are in the background or not the focal point. I honestly wanted to cry for the three, and I wished this family wound could have been explored in future episodes. Sadly, we all know it is not.

Piper/Phoebe/Victor - The three actually get very little time together. There is one moment I really liked. Piper/Phoebe are fighting over a phone because Piper wants to call Leslie and tell him Phoebe has a crush on him. Victor is smiling because he is experiencing a moment he never got to experience.

On the other hand - I also dislike this moment because while I could see current Piper and Phoebe doing something so childish, I can't see teenage Piper and teenage Phoebe doing this. The show tells us they are teenagers even though they are acting like 3 year olds. We have seen teenage Piper who was an awkward wallflower and we have seen the infamous teenage Freebie who was the leader of a Happy Days gang. I can't imagine teenage Phoebe ever acting so naive and lovestruck over a guy, at least in the way the show portrayed in this episode. Hyde School Reunion Phoebe was nothing like how Alyssa portrayed Phoebe in this episode. I also can't imagine awkward wallflower Piper who has no voice of her own arguing with Phoebe over a boy Phoebe likes. Even in Hyde School Reunion Piper spoke of teenage Phoebe like a stranger she lived with and was Grams' problem and not like a sister she was constantly feuding with or even had a playful or even close relationship with.

I also dislike that the show never acknowledges that regardless of how difficult Grams was, Victor chose to leave. Anything he missed out on in the girls' lives is because he thought it was easier to live without them than with them. They still don't seem to have a particularly close relationship now, and no one is stopping Victor from being in the girls' lives now but him. 

Anyway, I'm sorry this was so long. As you see, I had a lot of emotions watching this episode. It truly could have been phenomenal if the writer's still cared at this point, but it's hard to argue that they did.

I'll end with:

1. The episode shows that Wyatt really needed his powers bound

2. The episode shows that Magic School, The Bay Mirror, Leslie, and even P3 at this point are distractions that subtract from the sisters and do not add to them

3. The episode makes me question why HMC and AM, who are producers, didn't use their power to allow for more engaging character studies. The cast can handle it, and it has to be more rewarding that complaining, HMC, or a baby voice, AM. Complicated and even unspeakable emotions are more interesting to view and I would imagine more fulfilling to play as an actress. I question why they were not interested in doing so.

Edited February 8, 2022 by 4evaQuez

[Spartan Girl]

Grams needed to STFU as far as Leo was concerned; throwing Gideon in his face—did everyone forget that Gideon tried to kill Wyatt?! So killing an Elder was far worse than killing a child?! Ugh. This show was so infuriating.

[Pearson80]

21 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

First, the tonal inconsistency could cause stage 15 whiplash. The episode switches between outlandish, family drama, cartoonish, fanciful, and emotionally grounded with no transition whatsoever. One perfect example is a conversation between Grams/Piper. The two are discussing their lives as witches, and Piper brings up losing Patty and Prue, her husband's insanity, and the many demons that are after her and her children. It is a beautifully acted moment from both actresses. However, it's also difficult to take it completely seriously since Piper is a metaphorical 3 year old - complete with childish voice - in the moment and it's immediately followed by wacky hijinks in the parlor.

 

This was my favorite scene in the episode, Piper mentioning Prue with so much pain with tears in her eyes was moving. It showed how Piper was still in despair over Prue's death even though she had to move on.   Holly Marie Combs was just perfection she conveyed so much in that scene with Grams.

@4EVAQUEZ, your analysis of the episode cheaper by the coven was just so damn awesome. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Pearson80

[4evaQuez]

1 hour ago, Pearson80 said:

@4EVAQUEZ, your analysis of the episode cheaper by the coven was just so damn awesome. 

Thank you! Much appreciated. :-)

On 2/6/2022 at 11:45 AM, Pearson80 said:

 I have no idea if evil human beings could touch it though since we never saw the sisters going up against an evil human.

I just finished watching Someone to Witch Over Me. Phoebe doesn't trust Brody and warns Paige not to let him near the book. Paige says that if Brody is evil it will "zap" him. 

Later in the episode, Paige asks Brody to check something in the book. She's monitoring him as he does so. Once he flips a few pages, he asks her does she trust him now. Paige asks him what does he mean? He responds that a powerful magical tome would protect itself if it thought he was evil or meant it harm. It didn't, so she should be able to trust him now.

Paige tells him he's correct that the Book must not see him as a danger.

Based on this, it seems evil human beings shouldn't be able to touch the book as Paige also did some type of magical blood test in Once in a Blue Moon that determined Brody was a mortal.

Random Thought: does anyone know if HMC and RM were feuding in early Season 7 based on any interviews they've done? Piper is oddly cold to Paige so far this season, and Paige has more attitude toward Piper this so far this season. Phoebe and Paige are more aligned this season. Phoebe is also in more scenes with Piper. Just wondering as there's no storyline reason why the two should be cold or snippy with each other.

[Primal Slayer]

6 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

Random Thought: does anyone know if HMC and RM were feuding in early Season 7 based on any interviews they've done? Piper is oddly cold to Paige so far this season, and Paige has more attitude toward Piper this so far this season. Phoebe and Paige are more aligned this season. Phoebe is also in more scenes with Piper. Just wondering as there's no storyline reason why the two should be cold or snippy with each other.

I dont remember hearing anything. Surprisingly after S4 I dont think there was any talk about how everyone was getting along and we assumed it was one big happy family. Of course Rose states differently now that Alyssa was an apparent nightmare to work with in later seasons so...who knows. 

[Pearson80]

6 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I dont remember hearing anything. Surprisingly after S4 I dont think there was any talk about how everyone was getting along and we assumed it was one big happy family. Of course Rose states differently now that Alyssa was an apparent nightmare to work with in later seasons so...who knows. 

Rose validated Shannen's problems with Alyssa.  Rose really went in on Alyssa and it was deep.  Rose said that she used to cry at times and wanted to quit so bad because of Alyssa.  She was filled with despair every time that the show got renewed. I remember Shannen threatening to quit in the middle of season 3.  I wonder what was up with Alyssa to have treated Shannen and Rose so badly. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Pearson80

[helenamonster]

I mean, I find Alyssa rather insufferable in small doses mediated through a screen, I can't imagine what it's like to deal with that every day at work for years on end.

[Primal Slayer]

On 2/10/2022 at 12:24 AM, Pearson80 said:

Rose validated Shannen's problems with Alyssa.  Rose really went in on Alyssa and it was deep.  Rose said that she used to cry at times and wanted to quit so bad because of Alyssa.  She was filled with despair every time that the show got renewed. I remember Shannen threatening to quit in the middle of season 3.  I wonder what was up with Alyssa to have treated Shannen and Rose so badly. 

I believe its been stated that Alyssa was dealing with depression during s3 and im sure that made things worse between her/Shannen. While neither rarely talks about the feud in depth, Shannen alluded to Alyssa complaining about the hours and not wanting to be there and taking the show seriously. Shannen was heavily involved with the show, even moreso than Alyssa/Holly when they became producers. I think that also made it easier for Kern and co. To get rid of her so they can take full control and run it into the ground. 

I'm always 50/50 on some of Roses statements regarding Alyssa bts since im sure their feud has made her look back at things differently. Im sure Alyssa wasn't an Angel everyday but Rose didn't like the amount of work that went into shows and thought the show would be over by s5. 

But it does suck that Shannen took the brunt of the drama and let go when she shouldn't have been. To be a fly on the wall back then...

[Pearson80]

5 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I believe its been stated that Alyssa was dealing with depression during s3 and im sure that made things worse between her/Shannen. While neither rarely talks about the feud in depth, Shannen alluded to Alyssa complaining about the hours and not wanting to be there and taking the show seriously. Shannen was heavily involved with the show, even moreso than Alyssa/Holly when they became producers. I think that also made it easier for Kern and co. To get rid of her so they can take full control and run it into the ground. 

I'm always 50/50 on some of Roses statements regarding Alyssa bts since im sure their feud has made her look back at things differently. Im sure Alyssa wasn't an Angel everyday but Rose didn't like the amount of work that went into shows and thought the show would be over by s5. 

But it does suck that Shannen took the brunt of the drama and let go when she shouldn't have been. To be a fly on the wall back then...

I will always believe that Alyssa was behind Shannen's firing.  At the time that it happened, I believed the propaganda against Shannen.  I am team Shannen and Rose when it comes to Alyssa.  I remember during the end of season 7 the ladies had an interview about the show and the topic of Shannen/Prue came up and Alyssa was very nasty in her response. She basically said nobody wanted her back period.  Her nastiness gave me pause and I started to question what I was told to believe about Shannen's firing.  Over the years, I became very suspicious of Alyssa and Rose's meltdown on twitter when she went after Alyssa just confirmed what I had suspected. 

Alyssa and Holly Marie never had any power and influence over the show.  The producer title that they got in season 5 meant nothing.  Rose spilled the tea on that, she was offered the producer title and she turned it down because it did not come with any salary increase or influence on storylines. As producers Alyssa and Holly Marie were in charge of the holiday parties on set. 

[Primal Slayer]

Some old Charmed articles from S3/4. Its always interesting to go back and read bits about it, shame most of its been lost.

Quote

BRAD Kern, the executive producer of “Charmed” – the WB’s second-highest-rated show – says his show is not getting any respect from the network.

“I’m frustrated by the lack of promos and publicity – they don’t promote us like they do their other shows,” Kern says of the series, which centers around witchly sisters Piper (Holly Marie Combs), Prue (Shannen Doherty) and Phoebe (Alyssa Milano).

“We’re the No. 2 show on the network . . . but we don’t get mentioned in the same breath as ‘Buffy,’ ‘Angel’ or ‘Dawson’s Creek,'” Kern says.

“They rarely mention us when they talk about their top shows.”

Kern let off some steam while hyping this Thursday’s episode, “Sleuthing With the Enemy” (9 p.m. on Ch. 11), a stunner in which Cole (Julian McMahon) is revealed as a killer – much to his lover Phoebe’s horror.

“This is the end of an eight-episode arc, where there are changes in the sisters’ lives that will affect the show forever,” Kern says. “But we’ve only been on once in the last five weeks. It’s a source of great frustration for me and for the entire show.”

“Charmed” has been averaging about 5.8 million viewers this season, the WB’s second-highest-rated show behind “7th Heaven” (8.2 million viewers).
https://nypost.com/2000/12/12/charmed-boss-tirade/

Quote

11.02.01 - Are the rumours that Alyssa Milano might be leaving the show true?

There's definitely something a-brewin'. A source close to the set has told me that there is some not-so-charming tension between Alyssa and her onscreen sibs. Apparently it's stemming from jealousy over better storylines and Shannen's more expensive wardrobe, which is full of Chloe and Versace and has created a few budget problems.
https://thecharmedcafe.proboards.com/thread/11625/archive-news-chronology-scenes-stuff

Quote

April 12, 2001 - MSNBC reports a well-placed source on the set of Charmed says the three actresses can't stand each other and it has gotten so bad that producers are seriously considering killing off one of the characters, most likely Alyssa’s.
https://thecharmedcafe.proboards.com/thread/11625/archive-news-chronology-scenes-stuff

Quote

April 12, 2001 - MSNBC reports a well-placed source on the set of Charmed says the three actresses can't stand each other and it has gotten so bad that producers are seriously considering killing off one of the characters, most likely Alyssa’s.
https://thecharmedcafe.proboards.com/thread/11625/archive-news-chronology-scenes-stuff

And of course this little quote about S4 from a certain guest star

Quote

Armin Shimerman (the Wizard in season 4) once said how he "hated the ladies on "Bewitched"...um...uh..."Charmed!" "Charmed!" And there's a reason they were cast as witches. I...of all the shows I've ever worked, that was by far the ugliest."

 

[4evaQuez]

12 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

Alyssa and Holly Marie never had any power and influence over the show.  The producer title that they got in season 5 meant nothing.  Rose spilled the tea on that, she was offered the producer title and she turned it down because it did not come with any salary increase or influence on storylines. As producers Alyssa and Holly Marie were in charge of the holiday parties on set. 

This is interesting. It actually leaves me with a lot more questions than answers unfortunately. I wonder if they at least get more backend for syndication and now streaming. Regardless of how difficult the show has been for them; I'm certain it's been a cash cow via syndication, streaming, and merchandising.

9 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Some old Charmed articles from S3/4. Its always interesting to go back and read bits about it, shame most of its been lost.

I forgot what a massive show 7th Heaven was for WB. My mother and a lot of the parents of the kids I went to school with watched it. We, the kids, would make fun of it at school.

I know Kern isn't a popular person around here, but I do agree with his interviews. I remember Buffy and Dawson's Creek always being in the media. They were always getting all types of specials and the casts of both were in those teen targeted movies that I don't think movie studios make anymore. I wonder if the age of the actresses/the characters impacted that. Shannon and Holly were playing actual adults in their late 20s. While I believe AM is older than HMC by one year, AM was playing a younger character and had a more youthful presentation and aesthetic.

I remember Alyssa Milano being pretty big during the second season of Charmed. She had quite a few endorsements deals that season, I remember one, in particular, was always playing during Charmed. It was one of those Axe competitors at the time, and AM was seductively straddling a bed in it. At the time late 90s/early 00s, it was a pretty racy commercial, and it was pretty shocking to see during Charmed.

Jessica Biel is the only person from 7th Heaven who got that type of media attention around that time, I believe. She was also playing a teenager.

Granted that doesn't explain David Boreanaz, but I only remember him in Valentine, so maybe the age thing still stands. 

 

[Pearson80]

1 hour ago, 4evaQuez said:

This is interesting. It actually leaves me with a lot more questions than answers unfortunately. I wonder if they at least get more backend for syndication and now streaming. Regardless of how difficult the show has been for them; I'm certain it's been a cash cow via syndication, streaming, and merchandising.

11 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Shannen owned 2% of the show, even after she was gone she was still getting paid. It was one of the reasons that she had a vested interest in the show succeeding and was very vocal about the direction of the show. 

1 hour ago, 4evaQuez said:

I know Kern isn't a popular person around here, but I do agree with his interviews. I remember Buffy and Dawson's Creek always being in the media. They were always getting all types of specials and the casts of both were in those teen targeted movies that I don't think movie studios make anymore. I wonder if the age of the actresses/the characters impacted that. Shannon and Holly were playing actual adults in their late 20s. While I believe AM is older than HMC by one year, AM was playing a younger character and had a more youthful presentation and aesthetic.

 

I think that Kern had some good ideas for the show but he needed Constance by his side to keep the focus always on the sisters. The show became all about the men once he took over.   Kern believed in each season having a big bad while Constance favored demon of the week stories. I think we needed both for the show to be succeed. I will always wonder how season 3 would have been like if Constance was actively involved.  She would never have ruined the sisters' powers like Brad Kern did. 

I often wonder if Shannen and Alyssa's rift would have mended organically  if Constance was still in full control of the show.  Holly Marie said that the ladies would have gotten over their girly issues if the producers who were mostly men had stayed out of their business.  No matter how bad things got between the ladies  we never saw a hint of it via Prue and Phoebe on the screen. 

The irony is that season 3 had a lot of Prue/Phoebe scenes and Shannen directed Alyssa wonderfully in the episode "the good the bad and the curse" and Alyssa's performance was top notch in my opinion so clearly the ladies were professional when it was time for them to be. Who cares if they did not like each other, we don't all get along with our colleagues, it is part of life.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Pearson80

[Primal Slayer]

Its still crazy that Spelling and co. Let a few momths of bad blood influence such a big decision. Especially when both were under contract and returning for a 4th season. If Shannen were the big bad like they tried to play it off as why let her direct 2 season finales, 1 regular episode and choreograph an episode? Abd they didn't pull back on the Prue/Phoebe scenes, if anything they seemed to increase in s3. 

[Primal Slayer]

Watching Charmed Again....again. Anyone who calls Charmed on their many faults can not deny that this is probably one of the best wrap ups to a cliffhanger that resulted in a main character being killed off screen.

It is a shame that they wrapped up Cortez in the premiere instead of making it an ongoing storyline that have the sisters afraid of another AHBL situation. They kind of went back to normal after the premiere with how they acted in public. The sisters treatment of him was not a good look and also could've been the start of their journey towards Morality Bites. They send him off w/a spell and dont even care about what happened to him until Daryl reminds them of him. It definitely shows a road that the sisters start to go down without Prues guidance. Not to mention that Grams could've informed them of a little spell that she used to use on them to make them forget magical moments.... 

The Shax of it all....confuses me every.single.time. What the hell happened between AHBL and CA that the makeup artist failed so miserably in recreating his look? And even the special effects have a change. In CA his "wind" is minimal and now has some type of ball appears.

vs 

 

When it comes to Prues things...I kind of get why Phoebe wouldnt be interested in Prues car but I also dont know why they didnt just have her take the car. She's spent the last 3 years without a vehicle of her own. She drove Prues car A LOT so take it and treat it with care. there's memories there. They couldnt show Shannen but Prue had a lot of clothing, a necklace, a lot of things that they could've incorporated into Piper/Phoebe that kept her "alive". Seeing Piper wear the Prue necklace throughout the years would've been so sentimental. 

Grams talking about Paige and making it very known that she is their half-sister always intrigued me. Part of me thinks that she had amphrensions about Paige and didnt view her as a true Halliwell. I dont think they ever really touched on it. 

The Oracle was a nice addition to Team Source. To bad they never really used her to any big potential. 

Speaking of The Source....when we see him in AHBL he's a red guy with wings, very much of a "fallen angel" and now he's a red guy in a black cloak with no wings. And of course when they reveal him he's not even red! 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Primal Slayer

[Primal Slayer]

Hell Hath No Fury is a great episode and Piper having to deal with her anger with Prue at the end was of course very good. I think they probably should've pushed that out a couple of episodes though instead of doing it so soon. I also wish that they had dealt with Piper partially putting some blame on Phoebe like Phoebe says when shes defending herself from Fury!Piper "you blame me for Prues death". Phoebe running after love is partially what got them all separated. And its never addressed that Cole was willing to practically kill Piper out of anger. 

[Primal Slayer]

It's always funny that since Piper got Molecular Combustion she was afraid of accidentally blowing up a mortal.  Each power has limits, she cant freeze witches so I would suspect that she cant blow up mortals/witches. 

[Primal Slayer]

General 4A review....while its a good season, it is definitely under season 3. The writers didn't seem like they were able to properly handle the introduction and development of Paige along with setting up the big showdown with The Source.

S4A has A LOT of stand alone episodes and subplots that pertain to the sisters individual lives like Piper/Leo having a baby, Phoebe/Cole getting married.

They fail to have the sisters deal with demons that are a threat to them that prepares them to go up against The Source like they did in s3. We just jump into Charmed and Dangerous out of nowhere.

The previous episode states that The Source has body guards that are fire starters....where are in C&D? Why doesn't he have any body guards? He has assassins that are...MIA. Even the storyline with demons challenging The Source is suddenly dropped.

We started the season w/The Source being red and this menacing voice to this white demon w/an annoying voice and questionable facial hair. 

They failed to treat The Source being vanquished as an event and more like a regular episode compared to S1&3 finales. They seemed like they just grew tired of the storyline and had to find a way to make Cole evil again. All of this should've been pushed to at least the finale.

[Pearson80]

20 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

They failed to treat The Source being vanquished as an event and more like a regular episode compared to S1&3 finales. They seemed like they just grew tired of the storyline and had to find a way to make Cole evil again. All of this should've been pushed to at least the finale.

I don't think that Brad Kern had any real plans for the source . Unlike Constance who had a plan for him. He was the reason that Melinda Warren predicted the coming of the charmed ones and that they were going to vanquish them.  Constance had a specific vision for the original power of 3. Look at how the sisters were so powerful in morality bites in the future.  She gave us a taste of what was to come.  

The source should have been vanquished in season 6.  I don't think that the new power of 3 was powerful enough to vanquish him in season 4. Phoebe was so useless that it was embarrassing and he even mocked her for that fact.  There is no way that Constance would have made her so damn useless in battle.  

Edited February 15, 2022 by Pearson80

[Primal Slayer]

5 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

The source should have been vanquished in season 6.  I don't think that the new power of 3 was powerful enough to vanquish him in season 4. Phoebe was so useless that it was embarrassing and he even mocked her for that fact.  There is no way that Constance would have made her so damn useless in battle.  

One thing I always disliked is that they treated Po3 w/Paige the same as it was w/Prue. Should they still be able to utilize it and vanquish demons? yes. But it should be a bit harder and weaker as their relationship just isnt as strong/intense as it is with the sister they grew up with. Paige being Charmed for all of 5mins and being part of vanquishing The Source makes everything they went through in S1-3 kind of for nothing. And if upper level demons (or basically any demon that looks like Belthazor since they drop it pretty quick) can only be vanquished by getting a part of their skin/blood paired with the Potion...how is it that The Source is vanquished with just a spell? It should take that + the spell + their powers to get rid of him.

[Pearson80]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

One thing I always disliked is that they treated Po3 w/Paige the same as it was w/Prue. Should they still be able to utilize it and vanquish demons? yes. But it should be a bit harder and weaker as their relationship just isnt as strong/intense as it is with the sister they grew up with. Paige being Charmed for all of 5mins and being part of vanquishing The Source makes everything they went through in S1-3 kind of for nothing. And if upper level demons (or basically any demon that looks like Belthazor since they drop it pretty quick) can only be vanquished by getting a part of their skin/blood paired with the Potion...how is it that The Source is vanquished with just a spell? It should take that + the spell + their powers to get rid of him.

Don't forget the new power of 3 invoked the whole Warren line to vanquish the source because they were not powerful enough to do so.  The power of 3 was supposed to be more powerful than their ancestors.

The new Power of 3 should have grown in strength throughout season 4 as Piper and Phoebe bond with Paige.  Piper and Paige should have bonded immediately because Paige reminded her of her beloved Prue. Phoebe should have resented the hell out of Paige for not only having the same power as Prue but also for replacing her as the baby of the family. Perhaps she feels that Piper blames her for Prue's death, given that she was chasing after Cole instead of being with her sisters to vanquish Shax. The Piper/Phoebe tension could have been in the background while slowly coming into the foreground as the season intensified.

Paige could have felt overwhelmed with taking Prue's place in the power of 3, Piper's smothering attention and Phoebe's resentment leading her to not want to be a charmed one.. Paige was an only child all of her life and to suddenly have sisters and  to be thrust in dangerous situations should have given her pause, Not to mention that there were times that Paige had the right ideas to tackle an adversary and the ladies would dismissed them in a condescending manner. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Pearson80

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, Pearson80 said:

Don't forget the new power of 3 invoked the whole Warren line to vanquish the source because they were not powerful enough to do so.  The power of 3 was supposed to be more powerful than their ancestors.

 

Which is fine but its not something they discovered they had to do with trial and error. 

 

[Primal Slayer]

After finishing S4....I dont plan on buying S5+ individually on blu-ray and waiting for the German complete series to come in....its actually kind of perfect to watch S5 on Peacock. The lack of theme song really helps drive home that from this point, Charmed is now Charmed 2.0. The writers are barely trying to create a good show, they have no idea what they want to do with Phoebe/Cole and just repeat their storyline in every.single.episode. "Phoebe, I'm not evil" "you are evil Cole, stay away from me!" It's pretty bad when your actor asks to be killed off because he's so tired of paper thing storylines.

Paige spends her first season with a very steady job and she gets a promotion in 5x01 and then by the end of 5x02..."I'm quitting so I can be a witch full time" such a shame. Unlike Prue who fully embraces her witchyness in S3 to a very dangerous degree and pushing her sisters to be at their best so they can survive the big fight....Paige fully embraces her witchyness and its puppy dogs and fairy tales. But she is essentially the only witch in the family since Phoebe is more about her work and Piper is focused on her magical baby that is already super powerful in the womb and of course..not Melinda. 

Thus far there are some good moments that you have to grab on and hold onto, most notably Paige meeting Grams in the flesh and the awkwardness of it for the both of them. Little moments like that remind us that Paige isnt a Halliwell even though the writers dont want you to remember that 99% of the time. 

I hate The Bay Mirror and Phoebe becoming this uber successful local celebrity of an advice columnist. S1-4.5 Phoebe would've probably balked at the idea and would've chosen a different job. And its just ridiculous that Phoebe would want any type of limelight after AHBL. 

I'm currently on the Superhero Episode and if Shannen wanted to quit during S3 for various reasons...she would've walked out after reading the script for this episode. This also introduces The Elders...in person...ugh.  Why the hell does a DEAD person need to retire? And why would a 13 year old become an Elder? It was such a stupid storyline that of course went nowhere and had zero impact to the show.

The Eyes Have It is one of the best episodes of the season (that I can remember going based off of memory), its old school Charmed and this could've been a glorified backdoor pilot if I didnt know any better. Shame the writers drop everything after the episode as if it never happened.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Primal Slayer

[Pearson80]

20 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

After finishing S4....I dont plan on buying S5+ individually on blu-ray and waiting for the German complete series to come in....its actually kind of perfect to watch S5 on Peacock. The lack of theme song really helps drive home that from this point, Charmed is now Charmed 2.0. The writers are barely trying to create a good show, they have no idea what they want to do with Phoebe/Cole and just repeat their storyline in every.single.episode. "Phoebe, I'm not evil" "you are evil Cole, stay away from me!" It's pretty bad when your actor asks to be killed off because he's so tired of paper thing storylines.

Paige spends her first season with a very steady job and she gets a promotion in 5x01 and then by the end of 5x02..."I'm quitting so I can be a witch full time" such a shame. Unlike Prue who fully embraces her witchyness in S3 to a very dangerous degree and pushing her sisters to be at their best so they can survive the big fight....Paige fully embraces her witchyness and its puppy dogs and fairy tales. But she is essentially the only witch in the family since Phoebe is more about her work and Piper is focused on her magical baby that is already super powerful in the womb and of course..not Melinda. 

Thus far there are some good moments that you have to grab on and hold onto, most notably Paige meeting Grams in the flesh and the awkwardness of it for the both of them. Little moments like that remind us that Paige isnt a Halliwell even though the writers dont want you to remember that 99% of the time. 

I hate The Bay Mirror and Phoebe becoming this uber successful local celebrity of an advice columnist. S1-4.5 Phoebe would've probably balked at the idea and would've chosen a different job. And its just ridiculous that Phoebe would want any type of limelight after AHBL. 

I'm currently on the Superhero Episode and if Shannen wanted to quit during S3 for various reasons...she would've walked out after reading the script for this episode. This also introduces The Elders...in person...ugh.  Why the hell does a DEAD person need to retire? And why would a 13 year old become an Elder? It was such a stupid storyline that of course went nowhere and had zero impact to the show.

The Eyes Have It is one of the best episodes of the season (that I can remember going based off of memory), its old school Charmed and this could've been a glorified backdoor pilot if I didnt know any better. Shame the writers drop everything after the episode as if it never happened.

I think part of the reason that season 5 was so horrible was because some of the stories that occurred in season 4 should have occurred in season 5.  Evil Phoebe should have been in season 5 and it should have lasted longer than 1 episode.  It was so lame since Constance hinted that she would be evil for a spell in season 1 and 2. 

The source should have been vanquished in season 5 or 6.  The sisters should have been more powerful individually with each having 3 powers  like Constance envisioned in order to face the source of all evil.  All Phoebe did was levitate and miss kicking the source. How pathetic! I also thought that Piper wanting to have a child should have been a story for the last season of the show and Wyatt should have been Melinda full stop.. 

I also think that killing Prue and bringing Paige on the show messed up their long-term plans for the charmed ones. In season 4 they tried to make the new power of 3 like the original and it did not work. I don't think they were able to formulate a new plan that would fit the new power of 3.  By the time that season 5 they had given up on making Paige a special character in her own right.  I loved Paige even though that I will always love Prue and the original power of 3. I will always wonder what might have been if Brad Kern had let Constance write her own show.

The eyes have it was a wonderful episode simply because it focused on Phoebe's premonition powers..

Edited February 21, 2022 by Pearson80

[4evaQuez]

So, I honestly think Season 7 is a vast improvement over Season 6. In my Season 6 post, I mentioned the show correcting course in later Season 7, but I was completely wrong. I think the first half of Season 7 is the most consistent and focused the show has been since Season 4. This is the biggest the cast has ever been (The Halliwell Sisters, Leo, Kira/The Seer, Brody, Leslie, Sheridan, Zankou, the Elders, the Avatars, Daryll), yet everyone - except Leslie - is crucial to the Avatar plot. Even Daryll, for the first time, actually seems important for the development of the main plotline. (His suspicion of Brody being behind Sheridan's disappearance casts more suspicion on Brody. This leads to more tension and conflict for Brody/Paige vs Leo/Piper. This is the first time we actually see the romantic pairings have prolonged conflict with each other on Charmed. Daryll teams up with Phoebe to find Sheridan. This allows Phoebe and Kira to bond enough that Kira trusts Phoebe to show Phoebe the vision of the Avatar free world. After Kira's death, the vision is Phoebe's motivating factor to listen to the Avatars regarding the perfect world the Avatars imagine.)

In a lot a ways, the first half of Season 7 feels like watching a chess game and all the pieces are moving into place to capture the King. I'll say it's obvious something changed with the Avatar plot as they are depicted as outright villainous in the beginning. However, once we pass those first few episodes, we get to see the Halliwell Sisters

Piper/Phoebe/Paige - First, The Avatar plot reintroduces real conflict into the sibling relationship again. We haven't seen the sisters have actual conflict with each other since Season 4. I also appreciate that this is the first time Paige isn't completely isolated. Phoebe/Paige are in sync for most of the first half of the season. First, they are aligned against Piper regarding Leo's actions and his killing of the Uncle Phil Elder. This is the first time we actually see Piper be outright mean and hostile to Phoebe in a way she's only been with Paige and maybe Leo. She sometimes apologizes to Phoebe, which she does not do with Paige. Eventually, even that stops. Piper is just mean this season. 

Additionally, the show centers the three sisters' motivation again. Brody helps to give Paige a very clear storyline. Not only are the two falling in love with each other, but his suspicion of the Avatars gives Paige a credible reason to doubt their intentions, as well. 

The Phoebe wants a baby/family plot actually makes sense. As I said earlier, it's actually woven into the narrative in a way that Phoebe chooses to align with the Avatars for a safer future for her daughter. This allows Phoebe to have actual character driven motivation, and it's not simply about finding a man and getting pregnant just because.

The Leo kills another Elder plot into the Leo becomes an Avatar plot separates Piper from her sisters. Leo becomes her main concern, and her excitement about the Avatars is about her own very apparent desire to live in a demon free world with a sane husband and her sons. 

Leo gets his own POV, but it's balanced with the POV of the sisters. Because there is a focus and a goal, the show backburners a lot of the things I despised...err let me be nice...really disliked about Season 6: Wyatt and Chris are mostly offscreen in Magic School, Magic School gets a lot less focus, once Leslie is gone Phoebe is helping to drive the main plot and she spends a shocking amount of time with Piper and Paige in conflict with both at times, Piper's whininess actually feels important again because Leo and the Avatars are offering a way out of what is obviously a miserable existence. Paige, for once, isn't searching for an identity, and she isn't just accepting the abuse of Piper/Phoebe. She seems to have really found someone she loves and can genuinely grow with.

There's Something about Leo - this brings me to an episode I remember a lot of Charmed fans disliking. Brody tranquilizes Paige, holds Phoebe hostage, and nearly kills Leo. I honestly love this episode. Personally, I think this is one of the best episodes of the season. We, the audience, discover there's an Avatar killing potion but so do the Avatars. We see Leo killing a mortal with no remorse. The stakes between Paige/Brody immediately heighten as we know she's in danger, and he's holding a secret as she's still falling in love. Phoebe/Paige turn against Piper who sticks with her husband. It also has one of the most exciting "action" sequences we've gotten from Charmed in a long time. The slow time bullet as Phoebe dodges it, Leo inhaling the poison smoke for Avatars, lightening blasting through Brody as Phoebe looks in his lifeless eyes. It's great!

Extreme Makeover: World Edition and Charmageddon - I think are two of the best two-parters Charmed has produced. I think these episodes will easily go into my favorite ever of Charmed. I hate the paranoid subplot because I think the sisters are asking questions they should be asking, regardless, and the plot makes the sisters look dumb. I also hate Piper in this episode. She is still complaining, and even has a line to Phoebe about the Avatars keeping Leo away from her like the Elders. I truly despise Piper this season. Like I honestly hate the character. Beside from that, I like that there is no huge battle. I like that Charmageddon is basically a Leo/Phoebe episode that centers on Phoebe's premonition to help bring the world back to normal. Another drawback is that Piper immediately goes back to complaining once the plot is complete. I just don't know why the show thought having Piper constantly complaining when she actually has a pretty good life was likable.

Drake - I wanted to mention him because I do think he stops the nosedive in quality and enjoyment after the Avatar plot that the show could have experienced. While the character isn't particularly great and his episodes are just okay. Billy Zane just brings this amazing energy to the show. He has so much zest and life that the show is sorely missing. I also think he causes AM to really up her game. She actually seems to enjoy being a set, her smile seems genuine, and while I don't think the Phoebe/Drake connection is great. I do think it's good enough that I believe Phoebe cares about Drake at the end of the storyline. My issue is that the lesson is literally the same as the Leslie/Phoebe storyline from just earlier in the season. This is also the lesson of Jason/Phoebe in Season 6. This is also the lesson of Phoebe/Cupid in Season 2. 

I have more to say, but I'll say it later in a different post.

[Pearson80]

13 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

So, I honestly think Season 7 is a vast improvement over Season 6. In my Season 6 post, I mentioned the show correcting course in later Season 7, but I was completely wrong. I think the first half of Season 7 is the most consistent and focused the show has been since Season 4. This is the biggest the cast has ever been (The Halliwell Sisters, Leo, Kira/The Seer, Brody, Leslie, Sheridan, Zankou, the Elders, the Avatars, Daryll), yet everyone - except Leslie - is crucial to the Avatar plot. Even Daryll, for the first time, actually seems important for the development of the main plotline. (His suspicion of Brody being behind Sheridan's disappearance casts more suspicion on Brody. This leads to more tension and conflict for Brody/Paige vs Leo/Piper. This is the first time we actually see the romantic pairings have prolonged conflict with each other on Charmed. Daryll teams up with Phoebe to find Sheridan. This allows Phoebe and Kira to bond enough that Kira trusts Phoebe to show Phoebe the vision of the Avatar free world. After Kira's death, the vision is Phoebe's motivating factor to listen to the Avatars regarding the perfect world the Avatars imagine.)

In a lot a ways, the first half of Season 7 feels like watching a chess game and all the pieces are moving into place to capture the King. I'll say it's obvious something changed with the Avatar plot as they are depicted as outright villainous in the beginning. However, once we pass those first few episodes, we get to see the Halliwell Sisters

Piper/Phoebe/Paige - First, The Avatar plot reintroduces real conflict into the sibling relationship again. We haven't seen the sisters have actual conflict with each other since Season 4. I also appreciate that this is the first time Paige isn't completely isolated. Phoebe/Paige are in sync for most of the first half of the season. First, they are aligned against Piper regarding Leo's actions and his killing of the Uncle Phil Elder. This is the first time we actually see Piper be outright mean and hostile to Phoebe in a way she's only been with Paige and maybe Leo. She sometimes apologizes to Phoebe, which she does not do with Paige. Eventually, even that stops. Piper is just mean this season. 

Additionally, the show centers the three sisters' motivation again. Brody helps to give Paige a very clear storyline. Not only are the two falling in love with each other, but his suspicion of the Avatars gives Paige a credible reason to doubt their intentions, as well. 

The Phoebe wants a baby/family plot actually makes sense. As I said earlier, it's actually woven into the narrative in a way that Phoebe chooses to align with the Avatars for a safer future for her daughter. This allows Phoebe to have actual character driven motivation, and it's not simply about finding a man and getting pregnant just because.

The Leo kills another Elder plot into the Leo becomes an Avatar plot separates Piper from her sisters. Leo becomes her main concern, and her excitement about the Avatars is about her own very apparent desire to live in a demon free world with a sane husband and her sons. 

Leo gets his own POV, but it's balanced with the POV of the sisters. Because there is a focus and a goal, the show backburners a lot of the things I despised...err let me be nice...really disliked about Season 6: Wyatt and Chris are mostly offscreen in Magic School, Magic School gets a lot less focus, once Leslie is gone Phoebe is helping to drive the main plot and she spends a shocking amount of time with Piper and Paige in conflict with both at times, Piper's whininess actually feels important again because Leo and the Avatars are offering a way out of what is obviously a miserable existence. Paige, for once, isn't searching for an identity, and she isn't just accepting the abuse of Piper/Phoebe. She seems to have really found someone she loves and can genuinely grow with.

There's Something about Leo - this brings me to an episode I remember a lot of Charmed fans disliking. Brody tranquilizes Paige, holds Phoebe hostage, and nearly kills Leo. I honestly love this episode. Personally, I think this is one of the best episodes of the season. We, the audience, discover there's an Avatar killing potion but so do the Avatars. We see Leo killing a mortal with no remorse. The stakes between Paige/Brody immediately heighten as we know she's in danger, and he's holding a secret as she's still falling in love. Phoebe/Paige turn against Piper who sticks with her husband. It also has one of the most exciting "action" sequences we've gotten from Charmed in a long time. The slow time bullet as Phoebe dodges it, Leo inhaling the poison smoke for Avatars, lightening blasting through Brody as Phoebe looks in his lifeless eyes. It's great!

Extreme Makeover: World Edition and Charmageddon - I think are two of the best two-parters Charmed has produced. I think these episodes will easily go into my favorite ever of Charmed. I hate the paranoid subplot because I think the sisters are asking questions they should be asking, regardless, and the plot makes the sisters look dumb. I also hate Piper in this episode. She is still complaining, and even has a line to Phoebe about the Avatars keeping Leo away from her like the Elders. I truly despise Piper this season. Like I honestly hate the character. Beside from that, I like that there is no huge battle. I like that Charmageddon is basically a Leo/Phoebe episode that centers on Phoebe's premonition to help bring the world back to normal. Another drawback is that Piper immediately goes back to complaining once the plot is complete. I just don't know why the show thought having Piper constantly complaining when she actually has a pretty good life was likable.

Drake - I wanted to mention him because I do think he stops the nosedive in quality and enjoyment after the Avatar plot that the show could have experienced. While the character isn't particularly great and his episodes are just okay. Billy Zane just brings this amazing energy to the show. He has so much zest and life that the show is sorely missing. I also think he causes AM to really up her game. She actually seems to enjoy being a set, her smile seems genuine, and while I don't think the Phoebe/Drake connection is great. I do think it's good enough that I believe Phoebe cares about Drake at the end of the storyline. My issue is that the lesson is literally the same as the Leslie/Phoebe storyline from just earlier in the season. This is also the lesson of Jason/Phoebe in Season 6. This is also the lesson of Phoebe/Cupid in Season 2. 

I have more to say, but I'll say it later in a different post.

Season 7 had too much focus on Leo and I have never cared for him so it was torture for me.  I did love Leo being able to rewind time as an avatar. I always felt that Piper's freezing power should have advanced to that level. Piper should have been able to rewind time regarding events that she was a part of like Leo was able to do. Piper being able to rewind time would have made her very powerful when it came to fighting evil. It could have rivaled Phoebe's premonitions. Phoebe could see danger coming while Piper can change them like Leo did when fighting with people during that season. 

Piper is such a surly bitch in this season. the seer was so right to call her that.  Also, there were times that Piper could have used her freezing power to stop an antagonist in season 7.

In something about Leo, when Brody is holding Phoebe hostage she could have frozen him and freed Phoebe from him.  Holly Marie as Piper looked awkward standing there not knowing what to do with her hands.  The second time was when that demon attacked Phoebe in someone to witch over me, she could have frozen him preventing her and Phoebe from dying.   The show forgot Piper's freezing power after season 3 in order to necessitate their plots.  She relied too much on her explosion power.

How were the avatars able to freeze Piper anyway.  Good witches don't freeze.  Also, when the sisters were taking them on, why didn't they freeze them and kill them.

I did not care for Brody at all and he made Paige unpleasant and unreasonable.  I loved Phoebe with the seer, they had awesome chemistry.  Not to mention, the seer's premonition powers was how I always wanted Phoebe's to become..

Edited February 23, 2022 by Pearson80

[4evaQuez]

While I really liked the first half of Season 7, I thought the second half regressed to what I disliked about Season 6. Without the focus of the Avatar plot, the characters went back to their Season 6 selves:

Paige  - went back to wanting to escape magic and have a normal life. 

Phoebe - went back being self centered, talking about the paper too much, and talking about her nonexistent children and how miserable she is without them even though she has a home, sisters who care for her, a successful career, and is apparently quite wealthy.

Piper - Stays the same. She complained at the beginning of Season 7. She complained in the middle of Season 7. She complained at the end of Season 7. 

While I think the actresses still can give some good performances. I also think the acting took a considerable nosedive this season. There are some great performances, but sadly, I can't think of any with the actresses together, outside of Cheaper by the Coven.

Paige - Her best performances are with Brody this season. I especially loved Charmed Noir.

Phoebe - Her best performances are with Kira/The Seer.  Witchness Protection

Piper - Her best performance is with Grams. Cheaper by the Coven

Lastly, the three actresses rely on certain ticks to get them through scenes when it's obvious they've checked out. 

Paige - Jerky and confused. For some reason, Paige is acting more clueless at being a witch this season than in her first season. Everything seems to take her by surprise. Even when she knows the plan, she seems out of the loop. And while her performance isn't quite slapstick, the jerky movements and dumbfounded expressions seem better suited for a screwball comedy.

Phoebe - Everything is baby voice and hyper active 3-year-old after 5 bowls of sugary cereal. This has been the norm for AM for several seasons.

Piper  - Lethargic, checked out and bored. Piper just seems to have no energy. Even her endless complaining lacks conviction or passion. She constantly seems like she's coming down from some 3 day caffeine high. It makes investing in her difficult because she barely seems to care. Also, while I'm on HMC's acting, I really dislike her in mommy mode. I'm obviously not talking about the actress' real life maternal skills as I literally cannot speak to it. But Piper as a mom just seems disconnected from the kids. Sometimes I wonder if the actor who plays Wyatt doesn't like HMC because the two do not connect, at all. The actor smiled more at the imaginary demon trying to corrupt him than he ever has at HMC. HMC this season just seems...there. She doesn't feel present; she's just simply in attendance.

I think this is why I hate 7 Year Witch so much. First it continues the odd tradition of milestone episodes focusing on an odd combination of characters. Piper/Cole is such a peculiar pair. Cole pretty much had no strong relationship with Piper. Phoebe/Prue/Paige/and Leo would all make sense paired with Cole based on his interactions from Seasons 3 - 5. Piper/Cole was odd. I think Cole - if they had to have the actor in the episode - would have been a good guide for Leo to help him make his Elder vs family man decision. This especially could have worked since Cole himself even became an Avatar to save his family. Piper herself mentions this. Granted, real Piper wasn't even there since only real Paige witnessed this but okay.  Leo/Cole had a pretty strong bond in Season 4.

The episode also doesn't make sense. In the very beginning, the Elders outright tell Leo he can choose to be mortal. It's never been done before - I assume they mean by an Elder since Leo chose mortality as a whitelighter for Piper but okay - but he can choose to "Fall from Grace." Leo makes it clear he doesn't want to be an Elder. Then we go through roughly 45 minutes of Leo choosing the option he always had. I'm happy it ends the stupid Leo is an Elder plot, but I've always been confused by what the issue is. Leo is a dunce as an Elder same as he was as a whitelighter. The Elders don't need him. Leo is literally around just as much as an Elder as he was as a whitelighter. He's actually around more since he doesn't have to help charges. I honestly don't get what this episode is about since it's 45 minutes of Leo choosing a choice he apparently always had.

Leo/Piper - I know people often talk about how Cole/Phoebe destroyed the Phoebe character and by extension the premise of Charmed. I find Leo/Piper to be much worse. At least Cole had the decency to die. Leo and Piper procreated and the show split into two families. The Piper/Leo family with their annoying ass son Wyatt and their future bitchy son Chris. Then we had Phoebe/Paige who at times acted like sisters when Phoebe wasn't busy with the paper and Paige wasn't constantly searching for an identity. I think the Piper/Leo marriage did a lot more to destroy the sibling bond as Piper prioritized her husband/children over her sisters and innocents. In real life, that's understandable. However, on a show I started watching about sisterhood, it makes me resent Leo/Chris/Wyatt.

Leo/Chris/Wyatt - I was fine with the "plot twist" of Piper having sons instead of daughters, at first. Unfortunately, I think the show focused on the father/sons dynamic so much that it harmed the mother/sons dynamic. As I said earlier, I don't think HMC works with the little Wyatt actor, and I don't like how HMC portrays mommy Piper. She often comes off as cruel to others in mommy mode. Unfortunately, the show also doesn't give HMC much to work with regarding her adult sons. Chris and Wyatt get a lot more development with Leo, and Piper is an afterthought. For whatever reason, the show also gives Chris and Wyatt a lot of dialogue about how important Aunt Paige is to them in their future lives. Phoebe is an afterthought, and they don't even seem to know Piper as a person. Wyatt called Piper an "optimist" in Imaginary Friends. Paige had to laugh. I guess Piper still died in the future and Wyatt had to give himself a happy lie because Piper has never been an optimist.

Piper/Phoebe/Paige - The three seem to barely like each other this season. Even death and serious harm can't get the sisters to care. Paige dies in Styx Feet Under and they leave her body in an alley. Piper is oddly cold and is 5 seconds away from throwing Paige in the white light. (Allegedly the original script had Piper telling Paige she loved her. I wish they had kept this line if that's true. I don't think anyone on the show ever said that to Paige). Piper dies in 7 Year Witch and Phoebe/Paige seem mildly annoyed. A supernatural poison is running through her veins and they simply leave her on the couch instead of getting an elder. The excuse "Piper would be mad if an Elder heals her." I mean, at least she'll be alive with Phoebe mentions. They simply leave and have no sense of urgency or concern for a sister who could literally die in any second. To be fair to Phoebe/Paige, even Piper doesn't care that she's dying. In Little Box of Horrors, Phoebe is blasted against a wall, and Piper can't even care enough to get out of her seat. In Freaky Phoebe, Piper/Paige outright kill Phoebe, and Paige/Leo are lounging on the couch immediately afterward as Piper paces for a few seconds before joining them. I mean damn! I know death means nothing on this show, but Piper had a huge emotional reaction in A Witch in Time when Phoebe/Paige died or even when she had to choose who would die in Y Tu Mummy Tambien. Now, she's just like whatever.

Piper/Paige - share very little time with each other this season. It's odd because Seasons 4 and 5 invested a lot of time in their relationship and even early Season 6. I still wonder if there was something going on between the actresses because even when they share scenes, they are not as touchy feely as they previously were. In Witchness Protection, I even wondered if the two were actually in the scene together because it's cut in a way that we do not see them both on screen at the same time. At least in Freaky Phoebe, the two seem to get along again as there is a lot of smiling between the two and even physical affection at the beginning of the episode after the demon attack in P3.

Something Wicca This Way Goes - As a season finale, I think it's mostly boring. The Zankou plot was dropped and botched after a wonderful introduction. The actresses seem bored. There's no sense of danger since the sisters are mostly safe at Magic School. Zankou is also not menacing. They turn him into a pig and fairies and gnomes are laughing at him. His big plan to get into Magic School is to teleport "up there" apparently and fall back down. His minions are literally rolling their eyes at him, dismissing him, and telling him "I told you so."  He steals their powers, which is done on a weekly basis at this point. His "research" consists of reading Piper's diary like a 13 year old mean girl. The episode is forgettable.

As a potential series finale, this episode is insulting. The random "callbacks" to show history between Piper and Phoebe seem inserted in by a intern. The vampire subplot seem there simply to fill time. The Prue astral projection Easter Egg is random, stupid, and nonsensical. And now it's in the show's cannon that a witch can simply teach her witch power to a non witch or another witch. So if Phoebe wanted an active power all these years, all she need to do was ask Prue/Piper to teach her their powers. The goodbye scene with Victor is flaccid. This man barely knows his adult daughters and now he's gonna raise his grandsons. The actor in no way gave it any emotional weight but neither did HMC/AM. The show also makes it clear that Piper/Phoebe don't talk to Victor since he has no idea who Zankou is even though he's been actively attempting to kill them for months now.

The show also gives Paige no one to say goodbye to. 

Daryll...Daryll is the last person we see before the door closes for what potentially could have been the last scene of the series.

Lastly, it seems to completely go against the Avatar plot. The sisters chose to end world peace because people should have free will and they were honored to keep fighting for that free will. The Avatars way of disappearing people wasn't even that awful, and since Charmed, like Xena, seemed to borrow from every religion regarding the afterlife, the person could easily end up in Heaven or a new life. 

Now they are just abandoning that mission? The finale just seems selfish, and I can't believe Paige would so easily give up helping others or Phoebe would so easily give up her column. Piper obviously only cares about Leo and her sons. That's in character.

I'm not a fan of Season 8, but it at least gives us a marginally better series finale. I do mean marginally.

Random Notes:

1. Charmed Noir is one of the best episodes of the series for me. I also think it's one of the best romance based episodes of the series. It's also classic Charmed. I truly love it.

2. Phoebe really should have been fired from the paper. In Bare Witch Project, she talks about the mandatory sexual harassment classes, and in Freaky Phoebe, she talks about how legal needs to start examining her articles. Phoebe is a woman who slept with her boss in front of the entire office. That alone should have gotten Jason sued and Phoebe fired. She and Jason also would make out in the middle of the newsroom to the point that Elise would have to tell them to stop. She made out with Leslie in front of Elise. She slept with Leslie in the office. She also kissed the guy in Freaky Phoebe. Apparently he reported Phoebe since Elise laughs about it in the last scene with Phoebe. Again, this seems like another lawsuit. Phoebe also outright pushes her assistant out of her office in Imaginary Friends.

3. Speaking of, I do not understand the financial situation of the Halliwell sisters. We know Paige doesn't work and was living off her savings. However, this was Season 5. In Season 6 she had temp jobs that couldn't have paid well that she apparently just stopped going to. How is she supporting herself? Is Piper/Phoebe giving her an allowance?

Piper and the club. Whether the club is doing well or not is literally based on the episode. In one episode it's flourishing, the very next episode they say it's on the verge of financial ruin. We also know in Season 2 that Prue took out a second mortgage on the home to finance the club.

Now, the part that confuses me the most. In Season 5 or 6, Jason outright tells Phoebe to write down a salary and he'll pay it. Elise says that Phoebe is getting a substantial salary. Phoebe, for whatever reason, is the number 3 person in the chain of command based on Imaginary Friends. Her column is nationally circulated based on Season 6 information in Power of Three Blondes. We also know Jason tried to get her a national talk show. With that much success, shouldn't Phoebe be quite well-off if not rich. 

Piper says in an episode this season; she's the only one paying the mortgage since Paige doesn't have a job. We also know Paige isn't expected to pay rent from A Knight to Remember. There's literally no mention of Phoebe contributing to the household, at all. It's odd that the show is constantly telling us how rich and successful Phoebe is while simultaneously wanting Piper to be a middle class everywoman when they are living in the same house. 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by 4evaQuez

[4evaQuez]

Also, this isn't connected to Season 7, but it's something I've been thinking about for a while. 

We know Leo was assigned to be the girls' whitelighter since they were born. He has (creepy) dialogue about how he's watched over Piper her entire life.

We know Patty has Sam as a whitelighter.

Grams' whitelighter has never been discussed, but I'll assume neither Sam nor Leo is her whitelighter. They were never described as such and in Witchstock Leo is not introduced as her whiteligher. This means she had to have her own whitelighter.

Does that mean that the manor, at one point, had three whitelighters assigned to it? That seems like a terrible managerial oversight by the elders.

 Especially since two of those whitelighters fell in love with their charge. One lost his wings for decades. Got his wings back and became an alcoholic before becoming a whitelighter again.

Another lost his wings twice and then tried to change the world.

Then there's the whitelighter the Charmed ones mauled.

The second whitelighter the Charmed ones mauled.

Then there's Natalie who died working with the Charmed ones.

The Elders really should have banned the Halliwell family from working with whitelighters with those facts in their file.

[Primal Slayer]

6 minutes ago, 4evaQuez said:

Also, this isn't connected to Season 7, but it's something I've been thinking about for a while. 

We know Leo was assigned to be the girls' whitelighter since they were born. He has (creepy) dialogue about how he's watched over Piper her entire life.

We know Patty has Sam as a whitelighter.

Grams' whitelighter has never been discussed, but I'll assume neither Sam nor Leo is her whitelighter. They were never described as such and in Witchstock Leo is not introduced as her whiteligher. This means she had to have her own whitelighter.

Does that mean that the manor, at one point, had three whitelighters assigned to it? That seems like a terrible managerial oversight by the elders.

 Especially since two of those whitelighters fell in love with their charge. One lost his wings for decades. Got his wings back and became an alcoholic before becoming a whitelighter again.

Another lost his wings twice and then tried to change the world.

Then there's the whitelighter the Charmed ones mauled.

The second whitelighter the Charmed ones mauled.

Then there's Natalie who died working with the Charmed ones.

The Elders really should have banned the Halliwell family from working with whitelighters with those facts in their file.

I have to laugh that every season it seemed like the Whitelighter mythology got more and more worse. It was a great concept but changed at the drop of a dime (and the reboots version isn't any better)

S1 they are supposed to be a secret and their charges aren't supposed to know about them.

S2 Patty knows and was in love with her Whitelighter 

S3. Leo reveals he looked after them since Pre-Charmed

S4 Leo reveals he watched them since their birth.

He's supposed to be able to look over them from above but is always asking for info when they call him.

S5 Elders can retire and their essence selects someone worthy of being an Elder no matter the age. They dont have powers out the ass....Then Leo just becomes an Elder and has powers out the ass. 

S6 they descend from the heavens like its nothing.

For all of the missed storylines..TCO having a real, full time Whitelighter who wasn't family was a missed opportunity. 

And the witches that we saw die in s3&4 apparently had no whitelighter that they knew of lol. 

Dont even get me started on Paige as a whitelighter....

 

[Primal Slayer]

6 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

Paige - Jerky and confused. For some reason, Paige is acting more clueless at being a witch this season than in her first season. Everything seems to take her by surprise. Even when she knows the plan, she seems out of the loop. And while her performance isn't quite slapstick, the jerky movements and dumbfounded expressions seem better suited for a screwball comedy.

Paiges regression throughout the series was really unfortunate, especially since she was newer to the show. First season was great, 2nd season was ok, and then they really just wanted to move her into that youngest sister trope. Didnt she forget how they vanquished The Source thinking it was the OG Po3? Even though she was PART OF vanquishing him. I remember a quote from Drew Fuller about how they didnt take the show seriously and took it as a comedy which explains so much about the later seasons. 

6 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

Phoebe - Everything is baby voice and hyper active 3-year-old after 5 bowls of sugary cereal. This has been the norm for AM for several seasons.

Alyssa and that baby voice....I think that is probably one of the reasons why she/Shannen had a falling out. Their view of show and what they wanted seemed to be totally opposite of one another. Shannen wanted the show to be darker and more serialized whereas Alyssa loved all the goofy stints and playing dress up.

6 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

Piper  - Lethargic, checked out and bored. Piper just seems to have no energy. Even her endless complaining lacks conviction or passion. She constantly seems like she's coming down from some 3 day caffeine high. It makes investing in her difficult because she barely seems to care. Also, while I'm on HMC's acting, I really dislike her in mommy mode. I'm obviously not talking about the actress' real life maternal skills as I literally cannot speak to it. But Piper as a mom just seems disconnected from the kids. Sometimes I wonder if the actor who plays Wyatt doesn't like HMC because the two do not connect, at all. The actor smiled more at the imaginary demon trying to corrupt him than he ever has at HMC. HMC this season just seems...there. She doesn't feel present; she's just simply in attendance.

As the show went on I definitely grew to like Piper less and less. She became very one note and everything was said with an added snark and how over it she was. It really shows with how she relied more and more on her MC power and rarely used her MS power. Becoming resident super witch really just didnt fit her well and it hardend her, something that even having children didnt help bring out the old Piper that often. One of the things that people criticize the Prue-era for was Prue being the "super witch" and not needing the Po3 yet....Piper saved the day 10x more with just blowing up whoever they came across.

6 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

As a potential series finale, this episode is insulting. The random "callbacks" to show history between Piper and Phoebe seem inserted in by a intern. The vampire subplot seem there simply to fill time. The Prue astral projection Easter Egg is random, stupid, and nonsensical. And now it's in the show's cannon that a witch can simply teach her witch power to a non witch or another witch. So if Phoebe wanted an active power all these years, all she need to do was ask Prue/Piper to teach her their powers. The goodbye scene with Victor is flaccid. This man barely knows his adult daughters and now he's gonna raise his grandsons. The actor in no way gave it any emotional weight but neither did HMC/AM. The show also makes it clear that Piper/Phoebe don't talk to Victor since he has no idea who Zankou is even though he's been actively attempting to kill them for months now.

I still remember how much I rolled my eyes on that first watch of them saying that Prue taught Leo how to astral project....like WHAT. I have major side eye for Alyssa/HMC allowing those type of things in the script since they've said how much they edited things. I especially hated come S4b that they were able to create potions that replicated their powers as well....huh? what's the use of powers if they can just be made with a potion? I think Piper made a freezing potion that also scalded them? And how scrying essentially replaced premintions as far as finding evil/innocents.

6 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

3. Speaking of, I do not understand the financial situation of the Halliwell sisters. We know Paige doesn't work and was living off her savings. However, this was Season 5. In Season 6 she had temp jobs that couldn't have paid well that she apparently just stopped going to. How is she supporting herself? Is Piper/Phoebe giving her an allowance?

Prue/Piper must've done the same for Phoebe in S1-3 unless she was able to work odd jobs here and there enough to have stable income to use...or I guess it is possible that Grams had life insurance and we know she liked them stocks! So it is possible they got more than just the house to help tide them over. Paige however...perhaps her parents left her money upon their death? But to have Paige go to college, be so independent, have a good job and then throw that all away to work odd jobs here and there...didnt she dog walk at one point in time? Made no sense.  

[Pearson80]

16 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Alyssa and that baby voice....I think that is probably one of the reasons why she/Shannen had a falling out. Their view of show and what they wanted seemed to be totally opposite of one another. Shannen wanted the show to be darker and more serialized whereas Alyssa loved all the goofy stints and playing dress up.

22 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

I think that Shannen wanted Charmed to be what the show Fringe would be in the future.  The main protagonist Olivia on the show had telekinesis like Prue.  She could actually cross dimensions with her mind..  That would have been awesome to see Prue do that as her telekinesis grew more powerful.

16 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

As the show went on I definitely grew to like Piper less and less. She became very one note and everything was said with an added snark and how over it she was. It really shows with how she relied more and more on her MC power and rarely used her MS power. Becoming resident super witch really just didnt fit her well and it hardend her, something that even having children didnt help bring out the old Piper that often. One of the things that people criticize the Prue-era for was Prue being the "super witch" and not needing the Po3 yet....Piper saved the day 10x more with just blowing up whoever they came across.

22 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

I think that Phoebe should have been superwitch in season 3.  She was the one that embraced their destiny from jump.  She relied heavily on the book of shadows because she did not have an active power.  She also went out and learned how to fight in order to be useful in fights with her older sisters.  

Phoebe was always reading the book and learning from it.  She was also the best spell caster and being charmed gave her a purpose so it would have made sense that she was superwitch and not Prue.  I was irritated with Prue being superwitch in season 3  and that never fit Piper.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Pearson80

[4evaQuez]

19 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Alyssa and that baby voice....I think that is probably one of the reasons why she/Shannen had a falling out. Their view of show and what they wanted seemed to be totally opposite of one another. Shannen wanted the show to be darker and more serialized whereas Alyssa loved all the goofy stints and playing dress up.

It's sad that SD/AM had a falling out over this - among other things I'm sure - as Season 3 was a perfect balance of both. We got episodes like Power Outage and Death Takes a Halliwell, but we also got Wrestling with Demons and Sin Francisco. Even Wrestling with Demons reveals the Phoebe/Cole lie to Prue which ends with the highly intense and dramatic Prue/Phoebe confrontation.

The show even had Xena: Warrior Princess and Buffy as guides to balance a serious serialized tone with campy one offs.

For me, Seasons 3 and 4 are the best seasons of Charmed because those two seasons perfectly balanced humor with emotional gravity.

[Primal Slayer]

5 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

I think that Shannen wanted Charmed to be what the show Fringe would be in the future.  The main protagonist Olivia on the show had telekinesis like Prue.  She could actually cross dimensions with her mind..  That would have been awesome to see Prue do that as her telekinesis grew more powerful.

I think that Phoebe should have been superwitch in season 3.  She was the one that embraced their destiny from jump.  She relied heavily on the book of shadows because she did not have an active power.  She also went out and learned how to fight in order to be useful in fights with her older sisters.  

Phoebe was always reading the book and learning from it.  She was also the best spell caster and being charmed gave her a purpose so it would have made sense that she was superwitch and not Prue.  I was irritated with Prue being superwitch in season 3  and that never fit Piper.

I think had Phoebe not been enamored with Cole and allow it to cloud her judgement she could've been the superwitch in s3. But even Prue being superwitch  she was more about force and less about creating spells/potions outside Balthazor. 

[Pearson80]

7 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

It's sad that SD/AM had a falling out over this - among other things I'm sure - as Season 3 was a perfect balance of both. We got episodes like Power Outage and Death Takes a Halliwell, but we also got Wrestling with Demons and Sin Francisco. Even Wrestling with Demons reveals the Phoebe/Cole lie to Prue which ends with the highly intense and dramatic Prue/Phoebe confrontation.

The show even had Xena: Warrior Princess and Buffy as guides to balance a serious serialized tone with campy one offs.

For me, Seasons 3 and 4 are the best seasons of Charmed because those two seasons perfectly balanced humor with emotional gravity.

I remember reading the ladies were not happy with the direction of the show in season 3.  They were bored with the repetitive stories and that may have contributed to the tension between the leads. 

For me season 3 ushered in the problems that the show would experience in later seasons.  Phoebe losing her specialness, Piper becoming unpleasant Leo becoming more and more prominent, messing up the second powers of Phoebe and Piper, not advancing the sisters original powers the fraying of the close relationship between the sisters etc... 

[4evaQuez]

On 2/23/2022 at 11:41 AM, 4evaQuez said:

3. Speaking of, I do not understand the financial situation of the Halliwell sisters. We know Paige doesn't work and was living off her savings. However, this was Season 5. In Season 6 she had temp jobs that couldn't have paid well that she apparently just stopped going to. How is she supporting herself? Is Piper/Phoebe giving her an allowance?

Piper and the club. Whether the club is doing well or not is literally based on the episode. In one episode it's flourishing, the very next episode they say it's on the verge of financial ruin. We also know in Season 2 that Prue took out a second mortgage on the home to finance the club.

Now, the part that confuses me the most. In Season 5 or 6, Jason outright tells Phoebe to write down a salary and he'll pay it. Elise says that Phoebe is getting a substantial salary. Phoebe, for whatever reason, is the number 3 person in the chain of command based on Imaginary Friends. Her column is nationally circulated based on Season 6 information in Power of Three Blondes. We also know Jason tried to get her a national talk show. With that much success, shouldn't Phoebe be quite well-off if not rich. 

Piper says in an episode this season; she's the only one paying the mortgage since Paige doesn't have a job. We also know Paige isn't expected to pay rent from A Knight to Remember. There's literally no mention of Phoebe contributing to the household, at all. It's odd that the show is constantly telling us how rich and successful Phoebe is while simultaneously wanting Piper to be a middle class everywoman when they are living in the same house. 

 

I'm on Rewitched. Piper tells Paige P3 is the only source of income they have coming into the house. Phoebe/Julie is working at the paper again by this point. Granted, I can't imagine Julie getting the salary Phoebe was getting, but she should be getting something. 

Also, Piper implies there's a mortgage to Paige. Again, this makes sense as Prue took out a second mortgage/ or some type of loan using the house as collateral in Season 2 for P3.

Also, Piper/Paige have already shared a lot more scenes together this season then it seemed they shared all of last season. The two also seem to get along quite well in these scenes, i.e. smiling, physical interaction, playful poking at each other, etc.

On 2/23/2022 at 6:28 PM, Primal Slayer said:

Prue/Piper must've done the same for Phoebe in S1-3 unless she was able to work odd jobs here and there enough to have stable income to use...or I guess it is possible that Grams had life insurance and we know she liked them stocks! So it is possible they got more than just the house to help tide them over. Paige however...perhaps her parents left her money upon their death? But to have Paige go to college, be so independent, have a good job and then throw that all away to work odd jobs here and there...didnt she dog walk at one point in time? Made no sense.  

I can see Prue giving Phoebe an allowance. Prue was basically Phoebe's second/third mom. (Patty, Grams, Prue). In the series premiere, I always remembered Prue bringing Phoebe extra blankets to make sure she was warm at night even after they had that big fight about Roger. Prue also seemed pretty successful at her job and was dealing with merchandise that was worth millions of dollars. I can see her affording it. 

I can't imagine Piper giving Phoebe an allowance. One, the two didn't really have that mom/daughter dynamic as Prue/Phoebe did. Piper seemed more quietly resentful of Phoebe, so I can't imagine her rewarding Phoebe's irresponsibility which robbed her of her own choices and options. The two were also usually more competitive, i.e. the Leo/Dan situation. It also would have given Piper a power dynamic with Phoebe that I can't imagine either one wanting or respecting.

I didn't even think about Paige living off of some inheritance of her parents. She was their only child, and they seemed like responsible adults who would estate plan and have a will from their one appearance. That money would definitely stretch since we know she doesn't pay rent, and in Season 4, she did suggest the sisters create a shared account for household expenses. Brain Drain. I can't imagine Phoebe contributing to such a fund, but I can imagine Piper/Paige doing so.

11 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

I remember reading the ladies were not happy with the direction of the show in season 3.  They were bored with the repetitive stories and that may have contributed to the tension between the leads. 

For me season 3 ushered in the problems that the show would experience in later seasons.  Phoebe losing her specialness, Piper becoming unpleasant Leo becoming more and more prominent, messing up the second powers of Phoebe and Piper, not advancing the sisters original powers the fraying of the close relationship between the sisters etc... 

I believe you, but I find that so strange. Season 1 is obviously trying to be Buffy. But Season 2 is saved by a few standout episodes. It's mostly inane when you take the best of the season which are arguably the best of the series out. Most of the season is Piper/Leo/Dan as far as a main storyline goes. Prue/Phoebe are given much better focus in Season 3.

[Pearson80]

1 hour ago, 4evaQuez said:

I believe you, but I find that so strange. Season 1 is obviously trying to be Buffy. But Season 2 is saved by a few standout episodes. It's mostly inane when you take the best of the season which are arguably the best of the series out. Most of the season is Piper/Leo/Dan as far as a main storyline goes. Prue/Phoebe are given much better focus in Season 3.

I loved season 1 because it was so dark and the sisters were so new to their powers and the main focus was on them with Prue's relationship with Andy getting focus without overshadowing the sisters dynamic. I actually thought that the Prue/Andy relationship should have continued in the series.  

Season 2 had some hits and misses. Morality Bites being my favorite episode because Constance gave us a preview on how powerful the sisters would become.  I hated the triangle of doom.  I actually think that Dan had better chemistry with Phoebe.  Season 2 should have been darker though with more episodes like morality bites and it should have focused more on the sisters powers. 

Season 3 had some hits and misses for me as well. I despised Cole and what he did to Phoebe and the show.  Prue died  in this season so it is always bittersweet to watch it knowing how it will end. Prue seemed strangely unmoored in this season and I hated her being superwitch.  It was just too much at times. Don't get me started on the Leo/Piper relationship, that coupling and their children did a lot of damage to the whole premise of the show.. 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Pearson80

[Primal Slayer]

14 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

I remember reading the ladies were not happy with the direction of the show in season 3.  They were bored with the repetitive stories and that may have contributed to the tension between the leads. 

For me season 3 ushered in the problems that the show would experience in later seasons.  Phoebe losing her specialness, Piper becoming unpleasant Leo becoming more and more prominent, messing up the second powers of Phoebe and Piper, not advancing the sisters original powers the fraying of the close relationship between the sisters etc... 

Yeah I was always a little surprised when I read that way back when. Though I think the fairy episode is probably what made them dislike it and they seemed to course correct REAL quick after that one.

[Pearson80]

55 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Yeah I was always a little surprised when I read that way back when. Though I think the fairy episode is probably what made them dislike it and they seemed to course correct REAL quick after that one.

Only to fall back into the fairytale crap in season 5 when Wyatt was born.. 

[4evaQuez]

59 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Yeah I was always a little surprised when I read that way back when. Though I think the fairy episode is probably what made them dislike it and they seemed to course correct REAL quick after that one.

I honestly forgot all about that episode. I think that's definitely one of the weakest of the series and easily one of the weakest of the season. However, even that episode gives HMC/Piper a really dramatic moment where she demands Leo from the Elders. I never cared for that moment, but it's still there. The episode concludes with the Elders giving their blessing for the Leo/Piper wedding. Even that episode is important to the lore of Charmed even if I don't like it.

3 minutes ago, Pearson80 said:

Only to fall back into the fairytale crap in season 5 when Wyatt was born.. 

I actually love the way it's handled in Season 5. I think it feels like a general "magical community" season and not just about fairytales. I also think the chemistry is so strong between the leads and they are obviously invested that it feels lighthearted and magical.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

[Primal Slayer]

I know the actresses/Kern were rarely happy with how TheWB promoted the show but Its interesting that starting with S5, WB starts coming out with posters for specific episodes

[Primal Slayer]

I still cant believe that the writers put us through HALF A SEASON of Cole "I'm a good guy but im also a bad guy and I am going insane" with Phoebes "You're evil. You're evil. You cant be good because you're evil. I'm going to kill you. I'm not going to help you commit suicide" in S5. Prue would've been so annoyed that Phoebe put them through all this drama in S3 only to just give up on him and act like it was all for nothing.

I don't even know what their endgame was with all of this. What if Julien hadnt requested he be let out of his contract? Would they have just gone the rest of the season/series with this?