fantique

See? Here is an actress being given clunky lines and awkward sing-y limerick-y monologue for half of her scenes and she makes it work while having fun. I don't think NR is not having fun but it doesn't seem like she thought much about her character. I am now championing the sent back into Betsy Ross' body theory. She's a modern person who got astrally projected in that time and body. That is literally the only thing that explains this mess without suspecting that the writers, producers, fox execs and Nikki Reed have brain damage. Because who watches this and goes "wow, this is great!" and actually believes it? And there is no way Nikki is thinking that she is even remotely close to accurate portrayal of a colonial woman, spy or not. The new location has done very well for Mison, I never noticed how pretty his eyes were before. I think it helps that they actually eased off the blue/grey filter in their daylight scenes. Yeah... I am thinking the intent is on the production side of the equation.

Well, while I see people's issues and agree with them being issues, I liked this episode better. At least I wasn't drifting while watching it. I liked all the mini plots outside of the SBR featurette. I liked baby Corbin (the actor is really good at being earnest and not bratty when suckering Jenny into letting him in) and I liked Reynolds (he wasn't being all "grr...alpha male...be intimidated" and his "Who are you? Why are you on our crime scene? And what the hell is up with your clothes and mannerisms?" face was good. He looked like he didn't even want to ask). Good scenes Opening: Matthew Stewart Crane is the best thing they could ever have as an opening. This is better than the phone sliding. Them navigating being roommates is great. It helps address certain things in their dynamic without making it the main plot or making it dramatic. Just having him feeling like he needs to show his appreciation for her help in such a mundane way is a show of good faith on the writers' part to try to equalise the partnership. Very smart set up. All the Jenny-Joe scenes are interesting and could have good plot repercussions and it's just so nice to see the real Jenny again. I like him wanting in and the show keeping the memory of Corbin alive. AND, they could bring more of Corbin's files and open cases back. That was a wasted resource so the writers should mine that. I do hope they don't go the romantic route because it's kind of weird. Especially because Abbie clearly treated him like a baby brother in his intro episode. I liked the Reynolds intro... It was suitably awkward but not too heavy handed, IMO. I do like that Abbie assumed he was there on her level and not as her boss, so the show is acknowledging that it is weird. What they do with that can be interesting but so far, I am not rolling my eyes or face palming. And I loved the looks Abbie gave both of them, especially Crane. Wouldn't want the guy as a wingman ever. Although Ichabod confused me in that scene. Pandora...I love the character, I love the actress. Yes, I want more of her. I am ok with her and her purpose staying nebulous for now because it is so much fun to think about what she could be planning. I can tell the writers and actress are having fun with this one. Shallow note, I liked her shot hair from last week better when in modern clothes. Bad scene The entire Betsy Ross sequence was absolutely puzzling to me. The thing is, if I ignore her speech, when she is talking business, I can deal with her. It's when she has to do anything other than say lines that I get weirded out. Her gasp! at the covers being blown was so fake it felt like a purposefully comedic reaction. Her "flirting" was really bad, the guy playing Howe seemed like he was confused and then smiled like "Oh right, this is the part where I am completely seduced?" And the script is so heavy handed and contradictory. Why act like she's this seductress but then have her deny using some more thorough method of seduction while she is in her underwear; wearing the guy's jacket. And what kind of spy draws attention to herself like that and acts still surprised when someone misreads the situation. They either need to stop with Crane's "she was the best spy evaaaaahhhh" speech when bringing her up if they don't intend to show her having more than minimal brain cells and presence. And Tom needs to stop having that confused expression on her face when she is flirty because it makes me confused. Not saying he is not acting like he should, saying the writing is dictating that he acts this way but since he is who I am invested in, if Crane isn't on board, I can't be. Or she needs to stop to try to flirt. Seriously, WHY are men confused when she flirts?!?! And her expression looks like she's thinking "gotcha!!" when he reacts to her flirting. Does she enjoy confusing him? If so, and that could be interesting, make it more clear and intentional looking. I have nothing against Nikki Reed but she is just not a good fit...Did someone hold a gun to their heads? I mean, once they cast her, they should have re-thought the role of Sexy Betsy because her vibe is sooooo wrong. And there is nothing Angelina Jolie like about her so, while that was at first a comfort, it makes me even more confused about the casting choice. Unless she's one of those good auditioner, bad/limited actor types. I am really confused because it really looks and sounds like she is doing her best and is super into her role. Have I mentioned my complete and utter confusion? I'm not even mad, she's basically the mcguffin hinter of each episode so she doesn't matter. Generally, I liked that I felt like I can see what type of show they want to be, for better or for worse, as opposed to what they showed me they're not, last week. Yeah, I'm coming to terms with him being a drama queen. More fun that way. How the hell do they manage to show more cleavage then when she was just in a sports bra? I was like "really guys?" And her cleavage showed more when she was in her FBI/professional clothes! Ridiculous. Here's how I feel about SBR: Replace 2pac with Headless and Justin Bieber with SBR. I don't know... Season 1's first 5 episodes were all monster of the week except for the one where Jenny escapes and the Hessians are after them and try to bring a horde of demons. What worked then is that the MotW tied into character development which I felt the demon this week did. He was really here to tell us Abbie found her father. Let's be real, nobody cares about Crane almost betraying his fellow spies. Even his unburdening was about getting Abbie to relieve herself of the secret.

Pokes head in. Is it safe? Based on my bitching will I be mollified or incensed with the intro of her new boss? Please tell me he doesn't have "LOVE INTEREST" stamped on his forehead. Is it at least better than Hawley's intro? I feel the need to confess I watched The Originals instead. I know...*head hanging in shame*

Oh I wasn't saying they want more Olicity, I am saying some people are against it because it is not comic book canon in the Green Arrow source material since it's an adaptation. As for the Scandal thing, that's what made me laugh. Either she is the whore to poor little Mellie's Madonna or she is Helen of Troy, who is just dumb. No agency. BUT, white guys will totes hit that so...yay? 1) See, I feel like the use of 'progressive' has a meta-societal connotation to it here when most of my point is that it's TV and it gets boring sometimes. So no, it's not really about being progressive and more about reducing the time spent eye-rolling. Because what accompanies that whole "the two leads get together" is the sometimes randomness/lack of believability of the pairing. Here, they have chemistry, not going to pretend they don't, but that's pretty much it at this point...and has been it since the end of season 1. I know that with Castle, watching them work together was no longer fun and that was what the show centred around. Maybe they recovered, but I didn't stick around to find out. And Bones, they never really had anything that made me lean in and want to watch them together really, the draw was their clashing views making it a good combo for crime solving. But then they got married, and you can(t sell married people who have such fundamentally different ideals and have them work for more than a season. How do they solve that? Make Brennan less...Brennan! On Scandal, I can't enjoy that this smart, kind and capable woman is a lead and is black and everyone is on board with that because she is no longer smart nor capable...and is a kind of shitty person now. On top of that, the narration tries to convince me that I want her and the asshole I have to buy is the love of her life, who is so shitty they create a vortex of suckiness, together. How am I supposed to enjoy this? Just stating your opinion on a public forum doesn't mean you're campaigning. I am not campaigning against Ichabbie, I just like to elaborate and work out what bothers me about it. Not everyone watches TV as an exercise in activism, it's ok if you do. But that doesn't mean that someone who wants to see the opposite is campaigning against your wishes, they just won't to co-sign your petition. 2) I wholeheartedly agree with this paragraph. Why do you think I kept bugging that Katrina fan boy last season whenever he would whine about how, all else remaining equal, if Abbie was white and Katrina was black, nobody would be pushing for Crane to ditch the useless witch for Abbie? Like anyone was asking that. Idiot. 3) As for liking Olicity and not liking WestAllen, it might be whatever but it's not antithetic. Not the way railing on about comics canon and wanting Lauriver because it's canon, but not wanting WestAllen is. In one situation, both are non-canon ships that are supported. In the other both are canon pairings but only one, with the white female lead, is supported. This is a clearer case and that's what I meant. And I get the reasoning behind the idea that normalised bi-racial relationship on TV, certainly letting the pairings happen when they are organically shifting in that direction, is something to look forward to and a needed step in story telling evolution. BUT, there needs to be quality control. Right now, after discussing in the relationship thread, I don't feel like most people on this forum think Ichabod actually deserves Abbie or is good for her but the reasoning "oh, well it has to be that way though". Why? Because if you take away the meta of Ichabod being the male lead, what, in the story, is showing that Abbie is valued by being his girlfriend if there is little evidence that he will treat her better than he does now as a friend? The goal should be to have writers put out stories where the WoC is being valued and respected and it's shown using something other than, "well..the main dude wants to bone her! And he's white! Double points!" Let's see... Olivia Pope is not treated with real respect by Fitz (he tried to buy her, not ransom her, buy her with the country's money and that's the last I've seen because I was thoroughly disgusted) or any other regular/recurring man on the show really. Annaliese was married to a creepy student coveting possible murderer, I don't know much because I don't think I watched past the 3rd/4th episode (I wanted to binge watch it during the summer because I can't take the wait between episodes but life/lack of proper internet got in the way). I don't know what that says or doesn't say TBH, but I am glad that is just one part of the story and not the driving force. I do have a huge woman crush on Viola Davis though. The character is strong and the relationship stuff is complimentary to her struggle. They are definitely playing up MG's physical appeal on Minority Report but not much to go on there. SH, doesn't really address Abbie's looks/attractiveness (except when they introduce a guy with LOVE INTEREST stamped on his forehead) but the story was not originally trying to put the leads together, it was meant to be all wacky fun. They pretty much wrote Abbie without most gender/racial specific markers some characters come with. Amazing chemistry, regardless of its nature, and the writers got taken aback since they never wrote it in as a possible outcome and tried really fucking hard to show how much they don't have romantic chemistry in season 2 which screwed them over. I don't begrudge them not ever putting on the table like other shows because it really wasn't the idea and the script didn't try to create romantic tension. I also don't believe the creators made it so because it was a black actress playing her since that was the plan before casting Nicole. Now there can be suspicion that they were ok with casting a black woman since they weren't going to "go there" anyway. Now that wouldn't surprise me, unfortunately. The flash. This is the most obvious case of racist pushback on the fan side. On the writers/production side, I don't see any shenanigans. I don't think Caitlin is anywhere close to "taking Iris' place" territory really but it might be because I couldn't give less shits about that character. She doesn't have much chemistry with, well anyone to be frank. I don't feel like the writers were trying to sabotage WestAllen, they just have a boner for Nolan-esque angst so of course they will introduce drama in the endgame OTP since the show will probably go on for a while until they get together. The same team introduced such ridiculous roadblocks to Olicity on Arrow (and they are committed to that) so I don't take it to mean they are diverging from the canon endgame with all present data. I do like Iris independently of Barry and think, when they weren't dumbing her down or have that girl (Lina?) act like she's a schemer, they created her as a good character on her own even with the LI arrows pointing at her. From this list, the only positive/healthy romantic set up is WestAllen. She's adorable, he's adorable, they can be adorable together. She actually acts like his best friend and he clearly loves and appreciates her very much. The story created her as a integral and valuable part of the show and they didn't make the mistake of dragging out the reveal of his powers. She doesn't have any of the tropes attached to her. If Sleepy Hollow wants to commit to romantic Ichabbie, they need to change Ichabod's character so it's not a Scandal-like mess (yes, I am traumatised by how bad it got, I was so excited to start watching it last summer and binged through seasons 1-2 in less than a week and then...ugh, ugh, ugh). I am gratified to see that at least (so far) the narration puts value in Abbie and her feelings in her own right so that's half the battle to a good, positive representation of a relationship I would root for and want to see reproduced. Because other wise the pattern set up by Shondaland is "WoC with a guy who is awful for/to her and we're supposed to think that's ok/on par for the course" is a troubling one.

Sigh... This is probably not going to end well but I thought it, wrote it so what the hell, arguing is fun. I have a thought on the "why can't this be a show where the two leads don't bone" thing. While I am 100% on board with telling a person that "hey maybe your incessant need to dismiss their chemistry is a manifestation of internalised and structural racism, so I would watch out for that." What if that same person has said the same thing about Bones? And stopped watching once they got together. Felt the same about Castle, and did the same when they got together (I certainly checked the fuck out). I think the whole "well wish for friendship somewhere else" thing is kind of extreme. Because one, people can want whatever they want out of the show they watch but also two, they are allowed to feel fatigue over the same beats being hit. Yes she's black, but unless you watch sleepy hollow thinking "oh look at Abbie being black drinking tea", after a while, the beats of skeptical left brain leading lady softens up thanks to her right brain partner who offers up a whole new world of feelings and not acting like a robot is going to sound a little too familiar. Also usually coupled with the woman losing all their biting charm that made them interesting in the first place. It doesn't have to be that they don't want two characters looking like Tom & Nicole together, it's just that every single procedural with this formula they watch, they express the same desire to see the leads remain platonic. Not saying that is the case for everyone who uses that reason for not wanting them romantically (I know it is not), but I think automatically assuming it's because they don't want (consciously or not) a bi-racial couple is short changing them. Because if that person has been asking for that for every single show they watch, then it's not because it's NB playing Abbie. They are just experiencing fatigue that is understandable. The argument isn't that Sleepy Hollow should be the one where they stay friends but more that it would be nice for those weary viewers if they stayed friends. Of course you guys are experiencing another type of fatigue that is more than understandable but I don't see anyone (well...except for me) giving you a hard time over it. I mean, have you guys only heard it said "I just want them to stay friends" in shows where the female half of the duo is non-white in the past few years? I certainly heard it with Bones and Castle, and others probably groan about it in other shows I never watched too. I think the Flash example is a much more cut and dry one because honestly, it's canon, it's not a procedural and they are not a crime solving duo. If they're the same whiners that bitch and moan about Olicity not being canon (ugh) and yet don't want Barry and Iris together, well it's easier to see what their real problem is. There is probably also that extremely sexist nerd thing where they get pissed that the object of their hero's affection is not all blubbery and swooning at him bestowing the greatest honour of his wuv upon her. RME, hard.

Yeah but that's the fun part for me. I love when reviewers do in depth research.

CalamityBoPeep, I agree with you (I mean the first post about not having Abbie call him out). Which is why I need the writers to recalibrate Crane. Because the problem with being so deliberate and reserved like Abbie is, and I certainly am like that as well, is that people take the silence for assent or at least lack of disapproval. For Ichabod to realise he's stepping in it, he has to be less focused on himself all the time. Abbie is extremely expressive when she feels strongly about things, so to not adjust his actions when it is clear how bothered/upset she is means he is either oblivious or he is in denial. As for him...self correcting if you will, I am sorry but at this point, his words mean very little to me. In fact the more he went on about their bond last season, the more worried I was about how he would fuck up within an episode or two of the declaration. I don't even know how they would go about showing me he is trying as opposed to just telling me. I guess stuff you do when you see that your friend is overwhelmed and that they might need help but won't ask for it? I really don't know but words are not enough at this point, that's for sure. Abbie might not even need help but at least he would be showing that he is trying to help as opposed to assuming all is well. PS: just read other comments and Crane is not an introvert. Not even a little bit. and no, I don't subscribe to the "introverts are shy mice that are loners" since I am one. I am just lucky my lack of filter really makes it hard to not just blurt shit out and make my feelings known. I think the only characteristic that remains true regardless of personality traits I have observed in introverts vs extroverts is what allows them to "psychologically/emotionally" recharge. All introverts I have known are people who need to recharge their batteries in peace and quiet. Being around people for too long periods of times exhausts us. And all extroverts I have known get super depressed if they are away from people for some time and gain new energy from being around people. Obviously this should all be looked at along a spectrum but that is the dividing line that seems the most accurate. This what the website for the MBTI (personality test, my profile was the Scientist which surprised absolutely no one lol) describes for both types. This kind of fits both of them to a T for their respective profiles. Wow.

Yeah... which is why some of us have a huge problem with the pairing because it can only an important (and unfortunately most likely negative) impact on both their characterisation. And let's be honest here, he is 95% sure to do something again that requires him to be called out. Now whether he apologises is another matter entirely. I guess with what you're saying and DearEvette's post which I respond to below, I see little reason to root for them as friends now if they don't solve this problem soon or as a couple if it happens because either the writers will be honest and portray the problems with their relationship (of either nature ) or they would say that all is good while showing how shitty it is and then I would stop watching the show. I would just be bummed out after sticking it out, that's all. Also about not getting a resolution, are you saying that they will go full romance anyway or that they will just keep the status quo and avoid bringing up how he is kind of a shitty friend right now? WRT his dire circumstances, if he actually had settings other than excitable puppy ofrgrouchy old man then I would feel something. The Yolanda speech before it is played for laughs was moving, there are times when I feel sorry for him and feel the show doesn't add the gravity necessary to his displacement. But if Ichabod himself most of the time doesn't seem that bummed out about being in the present except for when he's making excuses for his behaviour, then I can't take his "distress" seriously. It's a writing based character problem but it has been constant for too long to not just be who the character is now. And this première didn't seem to see that as a problem so I don't see how they will fix it. Also, here's a way to have him express his loss and not unload on Abbie while making her feel shitty to call him out on his shit; how about talking about it with Jenny? They are establishing their misfits status and showcasing their friendship already so why not? Simple, easy talk between two people who have gotten used to feeling abnormal and dealing with it by seeking adventure. Character moment, more Jenny time and no emotional manipulation of Abbie. And he apologises to Abbie, without excuses, while at the bar. Just thought of it. How hard is that? All I had to think about was how could Ichabod express his unease without burdening Abbie at the same time? Who else could he talk to? Jenny. 1) This is a very dubious argument to make. How is that not a reflection of his character (which is what prevents me from investing in their relationship) though? There are more than one way to react to such a set up and how one reacts is indicative of who they are as a person. He needs more so he takes more? OK... Some people that are even just a little bit more considerate would, oh I don't know, work harder to feel like they earn the more they need? Be conscious of the burden they are and try to be as helpful as possible? Not just say "I know I am a burden" while they know their situation means that the other person can't really go "yeah, you need to go". That's too easy. That's like passively aggressively cleaning the kitchen so badly that your roommate says "you know what? Let me just clean it." Also, while it is hard to define, please at least give me a something, past his arriving in Sleepy Hollow as the events got kickstarted, that bring something to Abbie's life. What has he made her realise about herself, what has he done that made her stronger? Happier? More confident? I'll take anything. Because actually when I think of the little development Abbie has had, it all mostly links to Jenny and her family. Not that she has helped his development either but at least she is his moral/emotional support. I am lost as to how "it has to be unbalanced and unfair" is an argument for a relationship (platonic or romantic) that is not an bad one. Unless you're ok with the potential relationship being an unhealthy one and think it's a good story to explore (which has its merit if they come out the other side of the conglict). In which case, then I concede. Otherwise...I just don't know where to go from there? 2) So...default friendship? OK? As long as it's written that way, you know, because it's comfort and not real, I guess...? I think I would have a hard time rooting for such a team though. I want to specify that they should totally be a team because they have no choice, but I want the writing to reflect that. If Ichabod is taking his toll on Abbie, show it. Not necessarily on a monetary level because money is never a real thing on these shows any way, but show her wanting to have some off time without him. By herself, with Jenny or whatever. Just don't act like he is doing her some favour by his presence or bringing anything, other than what he has no choice but do as a witness, to the table. The analogy is a little hard because the apocalypse is a difficult equivalent and he is not unemployed by choice but yeah, this is pretty much my mental block here. I just need the writers to fix it somehow because even their friendship is becoming tenuous to me. It's hard to imagine that someone, who used to have options and possibilities and independence, like Abbie does not feel so restricted in her life now that she has to do everything with Crane in mind on top of them being Witnesses.The sad part is she is so duty bound that I feel like even if she got tired, she would't feel free to just express it, as she would want to keep team from imploding. It was easier with the CFD because it was clear that they were detracting from the mission but this would be more of a personal thing and that is a harder obstacle because last time was "it's not you it's them" but now it is him... I hope they figure it out though. I want to be enjoying the ride along with this team, I really freaking do. I am crossing my fingers, that's for sure.

I don't know if you noticed but, and ladies(?) correct me if I'm wrong here, but I feel like Enero, Kimberella and I don't give two shits about the "I want them to stay friends" crap. We're saying we don't even get why they're friends. We certainly hope she has more self esteem and self respect than to get together with Crane as he is now. If he changes in the future, and I would need it to be longer than a season to be sure, and mans up? OK, but as of right now, I would be insulted on her behalf if they made the attempt to convince me she is in love with him. Considers him part of her gang/family. Sure. Affection for giving her answers when her father figure died and being in the thick of it with her when the crazy started? Definitely. But wanting a more intimate connection when what they have now is taxing enough? I would then have to redefine the parameters of Abbie's character, and that's the last thing I want to do. As for breaking the mould or whatever, I don't care about that either, and that's just me. My agenda, as always, is to be entertained. I will not be having fun watching Abbie becoming even more of an enabler to Ichabod. She already held her tongue because she felt like at least he would stay as a witness and not cause a separation since they need to be together for the mission. It would break my heart to see Abbie holding even further back to not endanger their relationship should it get to a deeper level of entanglement. There is a possibility that him being in love with her would cause him to be less of an a-hole (ETA: I am aware I am exaggerating but I have feeeeligs...sorry) but I am not willing to chance that at the moment. ETA2: If I wanted to watch a black woman be in a relationship with a white man that is insulting to her as she continues indulging the whims of a man child with self absorption levels so high that he has the gravitational pull of a black hole, I would watch the garbage that is Scandal, thank you very much. Yes, I a aware I am exaggerating, Ichabod is nowhere near as terrible as Fitz, but honestly, I am kind of counting down the airtime minutes until his American Citizenship thing takes precedence over his witness duties. Because his devotion to the mission is borne out of restlessness over not belonging. I am expecting speeches about what it would mean for him to be a real person with rights and feeling like a valued member of society. I just hope he has those speeches with his attorney or whatever as opposed to with Abbie while explaining why he is not putting 150% in the mission when she is juggling the FBI and Pandora. Upside though, he will be able to be less dependent on her and that could also potentially mean less ranty scenes where I am begging Abbie tell him to STFU. At least with an immigration attorney, I can see what the appeal is. Yeah, it's getting painful (ad irritating) to watch and it makes me dismiss Ichabod as a result. Which sucks.

Yeah... Zach Wilson is a huge problem for me because I disagree with most of his ideas and storyline instincts. The only thing I ever agreed with him on is that there needs to be struggle in the mission. I like him a little bit more this year. I have never listened to those guys before. I will listen because I am doing a lot of coding and podcasts help. Started listening: I fucking love them. SPN and HP references. Official Pottermore sorting?!?! I love them. And they met at a Sherlock con????!!!!! Where have they been all my life. Also, podcast fandom was hilarious. I couldn't keep typing at some points because I was laughing so hard sometimes.

What makes me laugh is that, generally speaking, since people can't buy that friends of opposite genders that are straight can be friends without sexual undertones, some make it a bro thing. Just say friendship chemistry if you don't the attraction, because I have yet to see bros behave like Abbie and Crane. I have been in a bro friendship before, Ichabbie is not it. In fact my reluctance in seeing them romantic has nothing to do with a lack of chemistry and all to do with me not seeing what Abbie gets out of it. Actually I am now sick of chemistry being a big requirement for a relationships on shows by now, I need other reasons. Not saying there are absolutely none but they don't convince me. Sometimes liking a post is not enough...so there! This made me laugh. I can't agree more because even though it's possible with a girl/woman, I am a kind of a bro with my guy friends. Abbie is not. At all. If two guys behaved like they did, everybody would think they are gay for each other. Yeah I feel like it just changed because their dynamic changed. Chemistry doesn't mean positive vibes only. Antagonistic chemistry is a thing too. No they didn't feel like they belonged as a team and partners because they aren't at that point. They haven't seen each other in 9 months and before that she killed his son and he killed his wife to save her, and the rest of humanity. To pretend they are buddy-buddy when they reunite would be insulting to our intelligence. It's already a stretch that she is ready to go for another tribulation that he brought to her attention in one episode, which is why I am looking forward to some tension and doubt in the mission and each other. Be it doubt over its success or the team being strong enough... whatever, it just can't be water under the bridge. I kind of feel like (and hope) it's the point. That it's not sustainable, she can't play at being a normal person. I want there to be a temptation away from the witness duty, for her to be hesitant and then commit fully again. It feels very impersonal at the moment, there needs to be weight behind the sacrifice of being a Witness or it can be that it's the only purpose one has (like Jenny and Crane). None on the team have real world attachment (yet) and I think I need to have that to be emotionally invested in them fighting and winning. Right now I feel as concerned for the world they live in as for the creepy maquette of the town Henry was making last fall. I need the heroes to falter, have a chance to fail at their job. Not because they're dumb or whatever but because they are human.

He does look better like this, doesn't he? Still not gape and lose all my shit good but it's more intriguing to me. Hmm, but I think it's an interesting through line of having her FBI life (which is something she's always wanted) and witness duty clashing. I guess it's more of a taste thing but it would way too scooby-doo ish, if they were on monster quests all the time, the procedural element makes it more grounded and that was one of the things that kept me around in the first place. I would join in on that Headless group.

Oh really? I don't remember if I watched it. I mean, my two favourites are Matt (who is no longer there) and Jacque and they are huge Jenny fans so I am surprised that they wouldn't let her talk.

I didn't notice Jenny's expression but it's really strange. That review was magnificent. I was cackling the whole way through and especially enjoyed the imagined discussion in the writers' room. Oh and check out the sleepy hollow afterbuzz. It was funny because they kept calling out Mark Goffman and saying he was the destroyer on the tablet. Why do I like talking about this show more than I like to watch it?

Question: If Sleepy Hollow could be picked up by another network (broadcast, cable, streaming service, whatever), where would you want it to be? And the showrunner could be whoever you want it to be as well. I have been thinking about this for a while. I don't know networks too well and I rarely know what show is on which network unless it's an HBO show since I have HBO now.

Ouch http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2015/10/02/tv-ratings-thursday-sleepy-hollow-premieres-way-down-bones-the-blacklist-climb/474974/ I am pretty sure it's lower than any episode of season 2. Although I am not surprised, a lot of people are either unaware that it was back, and caught it by chance, or were put off by what little they heard of this upcoming season. The upside is, I see a lot of people who gave up on season 2 and are poking their head back in for this season.

That reminds me of something Kevin Williamson said when explaining what convinced him to write for the Vampire Diaries despite its Twilight-ness. It was the town, and the creepy, well everything that hid around the corner while at first looking like a quaint little place. I absolutely loved Irving's line about there being a damn rose bush on every lawn (paraphrasing) while showing his disbelief at the HH murders. I want Sleepy Hollow to have that creepy suburbia feeling, it looks nice but there are monsters under every bed. It would be much needed world building.

Ok... The good: - Abbie at the FBI, loved everything about it. I loved Abbie kicking ass, confident and clearly valued at her work. I knew the agent would die but I still got attached, especially with his brusque manner and then hidden smile when she turns around. I loved the pilot/Corbin flashback feels it brought me. So it is nice they know how to make me care about a character in one episode. I liked the easiness with which Abbie worked throughout the episode. I can believe this is a well established routine, with a job she loves and her cheeky opening line with her CI was awesome. She feels more relaxed and settled. I liked her reluctance to go back to the spn fighting and her clear hesitance in following Crane into this new adventure. And while it was clumsily worked in, I loved the moment when she took up the witness mantle again and accepted that the mission is back on. I do hope to see her struggle between her sense of duty and the gratification she gets by being a regular FBI agent. I am hoping for/expecting setbacks, self realisation and finally her being able to have the two jobs work together. - Ichabod in prison was way more hilarious than I anticipated and I loved him rearranging the guy's hat at Colonial Times. I am suspecting this was a Tom ad lib. I really, really want to like Ichabod as much as I like Tom. - Pandora, pleasantly surprised. This is weird because she is both in the good and bad section for me. The bond villain monologues are hard to not roll my eyes at but her creepiness as a modern person is so much more interesting. because I can see why others don't pick up on her crazy while still seeing her crazed look. I am interested in her backstory and the interaction with Abbie was interesting. I am pleasantly surprised it happened this early. I enjoy the character when she's trying to blend in with her eeeevillll settings on low simmer. All in all, I feel there is potential for a good use of the Pandora myth. The bad: - SBR was just weird. Her costume didn't bother me as much in the scenes as it does in the credits or the promo pics (I find it absolutely horrid in those and it's not even about the pathetic attempt at boobage) but it had nothing distinguishing or interesting about it that made me want to know more about her. Also the scene where she is introduced and takes off her hat was played off as if the viewer is supposed to think it's a man at first, but it was kind of clumsy. NR didn't impress or disappoint me though I liked her for a microsecond before she kissed him really awkwardly. But if they allow the actress to be less "yoohoo!!! I am here to be sexxxayyy and flirty *wink*", it could go in a interesting direction. I certainly hope she stays in the past. Her intro was awkward and they were trying to hard to sell her as cool and they did that show rather than tell thing with Ichabod telling us all her virtues instead of letting us find out as the show goes on. - Ichabod and the ladies... makes me cringe. It's weird because I loved Caroline crushing on him but the Danny scene was so overplayed. I guess the show is aware of its male audience and relies on Tom's looks to keep the ladies under his charm. Problem is there is such a clear difference between Crane and Tom that I can't buy the whole "all the ladies love Crane" thing. - The show is ruining my love of period stuff with their cheap and boring costuming. Pandora in old timey gear? *snore* In modern gear? Interest piqued. I think they've made me lose interest in the past, I hope that is rectified because it was one of my favourite bits. - Crane pain: I did not feel an ounce of sympathy/empathy/pity for Crane and his challenge of finding a place in the world. I have never emotionally connected much to Crane but now I just lost all interest and only enjoy his comedic moments. This is a bummer. I have never had so much disparity between my liking an actor and the character they play. I hope that changes. Crane should be like catnip to me: tall, long dark hair and gorgeous eyes, crazy smart and a gentleman in period costume? I should be all over that...but that might have to do with my taste more than the show's fault. I guess I find him too one-dimensional? I don't know... Overall, an ok episode but I found myself pouting that I missed Project runway at the same time and that is not good. I also didn't really care much. It was fun in the moment but I was't always connected to the characters and that's a problem. While I am not going to avoid it until all the first half is out, I am also not going to rush to see it. If I have time, yay, if not, oh well. I am feeling slightly less pessimistic about the taste level though and I approve of the decisions to put previous seasons' elements on the back burner without getting rid of them altogether. I also liked the soft reboot and callbacks to the pilot that had a appreciative feel for the original idea while wanting to pave their own way. I will give them a pass on the pacing and editing because they were trying to do a lot ad the trying hard feel of the episode is a growing pain.

I was going to say how I see it differently... but phoenics pretty much spoke my mind on this one. I know one of my biggest complaints about season was my difficulty in believing there are more than 10 people outside of TW in SH, so bring on the supporters. This world needs to feel full so I can care about them saving it. I would also argue that they both need an "outside person" so I don't feel like they stick around each other by default. Sure Crane has had more of an opportunity to be tempted away from the partnership so I see why it's not as interesting to see him venture out but I would argue that for Abbie it's really necessary for her to consider other ways/options to live her life before recommitting to the team with full consideration this time. When it all started, she kind of had no choice, now I want to see her consider it properly and I want them to show me why she would be all in on Witnessing as opposed to trying to keep it as separate from her life as possible. Crane and Jenny are (on the surface) made for this while she seems like the more "normal" one. Conflict on the issue of why this is so important and rewarding on a personal and an emotional level would elevate the stakes. In season one, she needed answers, was still reeling from Corbin's death and reuniting with Jenny, and facing her past. Now, they need to show me why she is not half heartedly doing the witness thing, show her figuring out why it is her destiny and why, despite appearances, she is the perfect person to be a witness. It needs to feel like a calling rather than duty. Abbie Mills has done duty most of her life, it's her default setting. Her wanting to be a witness like she wants to be FBI would make it much more compelling. I am looking forward to see how the FBI and LG's character help provide a balance and contrast that ultimately helps tip the scales in the favour of embracing her witness status. PS: I really enjoyed seeing a lot of Abbie's FBI life tonight. I really want to see the FBI agent and the witness coexist for a while longer.

It has a both beautiful and creepy vibe, like an Edgar Allan Poe inspired drawing. And the colour combo is really cool. I like it! Even though those birds creep the frack out of me. *Snort* This made me almost spit my drink due to the image of him in a corset my brain conjured.

This is on my Netflix watch list. Fun factoid, she is Lance Gross' girlfriend in it! No wonder she's happy about him joining the team ;D

Umm...I was only talking about shipping in response to DJG1122's post right above mine????? Also, I read that post and, while I feel bad for the writer's experiences, and I agree with what she said, I don't why it means we should support an actress only because they are black. Yes, we can like someone just because they look like us. Human nature, we trust what is familiar more. But I don't think that goes with what you say because the directionality is very important here. She is defending liking them because she is black, you are defending supporting them because they are. She is defending the connection based on race, which she is right to do. What I am complaining about, and you seem to think is a good thing, is indiscriminate praise. I am not going to say I love an actress if I have not seen her act, or I don't like her acting but she's black so I will say she's good or watch shows she's in even if they don't interest me. It's not even really about liking them at this point, it's about offering support even if there is no appreciation. That is a very different matter and I really fail to see how it's complimentary (or more than superficially helpful) to the recipients. Regardless, what I believe is that this can not be the goal. This can't be what an entire community of women is working towards. Because resigning ourselves to always be on one toe struggling for our footing is not satisfactory or something we should get used to. Because 'we can't take for granted that we are appreciated for our talents but white people can'?Terrible way of life. And how is that not something we should be rejecting? And my privilege? Well, I guess it's not being American while black. Answer: Answer Hence the not taking it as a compliment on Nicole's, probably. Honestly, and that is exactly where my irritation comes from, if shipping Ichabbie is not because the story would be better or Abbie would be better but because of meta stuff, I don't see why people are annoyed at her for not wanting it. General point: As for her not getting a lead storyline since halfway season 1. Well, again, CONTEXT!!!! The first season divided their arcs in halves with the last two episodes focusing on both switching dynamics : she became the more focused believer while he was put to the test. Abbie from episode 1 would have never trusted Crane even for a millisecond in Purgatory. Abbie had a huge change in season 1 and it showed in how her relationship to both Crane and Jenny, especially, changed. And season 2 was crazy town that nobody expected or wanted except for some problematic writers who really sounded more like they were offfended by the lack of praise rather than animated by their love for Katrina. And really, if all the writers were on board with Katrina, she wouldn't have been so useless in most non-MG episodes. Seriously, I think she only did useful shit when it was either in a MG script or after she went dark. Either there was never an official "Katrina is the Queen" memo or they disliked it so much that they sabotaged, because there is no fucking way they graduated highschool if that was them writing Katrina as the new lead. There is no way they ever passed a reading comprehension test if that's the case. And, aside from her boobs being pushed up to her throat, there wasn't even an effort to make her attractive! Her wig was awful, she as often sickly pale. Even if the writers were pro Katrina-the-Lead, the crew and directors didn't seem to be because honestly, how half her scenes were okayed is beyond me. KW was never good but she was never that awful in season 1. Also, Mo Ryan from the Huff Post had seen the outline of and was excited but then was floored by the execution. Someone who clearly wanted to see more from Abbie liked the broad-strokes and was looking forward to it. But Goffman just changed things and made it the Katrina Hour. That wasn't because they were never going to explore Abbie past 105! That's because he apparently went nuts and thought he could replace Abbie and no one would be the wiser or at least be bothered by it. Well, the suits were bothered, the press was bothered and the fans were bothered. And in one if those rare moments of synergy, we all knew exactly what the problems were. Katrina and, more importantly, Abbie not being treated as the lead she was supposed to be. I don't see how all that translates into "they don't care and were never going to do her justice anyway" as opposed to the clear sign that the showrunner at the time was completely inadequate and blind to what everyone BTS, the press and the viewers were saying. If nobody on the exec/production side cared about Abbie and Nicole, it doesn't matter how loud the fans got, they would never had ordered rewrites. They would have let it crash and burn or even if they kept SH around for ownership reasons, they would have left it completely in his hands without bothering to fix anything until it was costing them too much. So I don't see how season 2 invalidates the hopes for Abbie. The real test will be season 3, you know, run by someone different than season 2. Oh, and still need more than "she's from the past" as the reason behind SBR = new Katrina. And that's coming from me who really doesn't want this character to exist on this show. At. All. Short of it; I hate when people lower their expectations for me or try to give me concessions because they underestimate me. I think, and that's why I used the creepy fetish analogy, that people lumping black actresses together and treating them as the same (which is what supporting them indiscriminately does, the problem is not the support, it's the lack of meaning behind it for the recipient since it is given without regards to standard/taste/etc) is not a mean spirited exercise but it takes away from their individuality and merit as performers. Comparing CP and NB when they have little in common in their situations outside of being black actresses and then judging one lacking is unfair in my mind because context is a thing and always using general problems as a justification for discontent even if the case doesn't apply is rarely useful (but we disagree on whether it applies so... at least it's in the right thread, lol). And there is a difference between quality and quantity of representation. A paint by the number approach fosters the latter without the former which I don't believe to be a good thing for real change to come about...You know, as opposed to the endless cycle of hope, dismay and frustration at the same method never working out differently. It means a great deal to some to support black actresses indiscriminately but the problem is that it's not something they can hold the actresses accountable for since it's more about how they feel about the issue than even the actresses' own personal interests. They decided to do it, they get to feel how they feel about their decisions but saying the actresses are not reacting accordingly to what they want from them is redundant. The choice wasn't based on the individual, it was based on their group membership. Of course they won't all behave the same and it's obvious the supporter won't like what all of them do but that's on them because it was the supporters' choice to not account for the actresses' differences. The actresses' didn't lead them astray so their disappointment is not the actresses' fault or a reflection on their ability/effort. But you know, YMMV, this is why I posted it here. Because I felt (and now know) it wouldn't be well received.

First of all, thanks for the response, and yeah, I think since this is still very much on the discussion of Nicole on social media and in interactive mediatised events, this in topic enough but mods do move me as you will if not. Second of all...I think there has been a miscommunication here somewhere (and my post in the UO thread before reading your response makes that clear)... I am black, 100%, unadulterated west African to be precise. So that's why the "as a black woman" stance to justify what I consider to be extremely demanding and capricious expectations out of Nicole doesn't make sense to me. Nicole doesn't have to solve or be aware of all the problems I have seen for others or experienced myself as a black woman just because I am a fan of hers. We have different origins, experiences and challenges. She is an actress, her job is to fight for the opportunity to play as varied as a collection of roles as she can to display her acting chops, the rest is optional. In this particular case, Nicole has portrayed more feminine women and she wants this character to be a badass. Saying she shouldn't because there is a trope of the loveless black woman going around, even if that's not her experience, is simply restrictive and seems unreasonable to me. Coupled with the exasperated, condescending tone...well it rubs me the wrong way.

^^^^^^While I have not known people in that situation, I don't think it's an entirely too bad road to go down, honestly. The show was never meant for shipping opportunities and romance getting past the B-plot level. Let that stuff be subtext for those who are interested. Onto what I assume will be an extremely unpopular opinion. In general, I really think that the whole supporting a WoC, in a seemingly indiscriminate manner, thing or assuming them to be in the same position in the industry because of their race and gender is a disservice. These are artists that are trying to create something unique. I am sure they would love it much more if most people liked them because something in their work resonated with their fans as opposed to just being a tabula rasa for projection or suddenly being used as the poster child for whatever agenda people are saddling them with. Example: maybe it's a cultural thing, or a taste thing, but the Scandal vs SH thing baffled me. I never assumed they had much of an overlap. Nicole and Kerry are very different actresses, Abbie and OP are dimensions apart. If someone is sitting down one night and deciding to watch either show, then they didn't want to watch the other one at the time of said decision. Not saying the same people can't like both, I am saying one can't be in the mood for both SH and Scandal at the same time. Indecisive in general or unsure of what they're in the mood for? Definitely. But sure that they actively want to watch both SH and Scandal at remotely close to equal measures?* I really don't buy it. The only thing they ever had in common was the procedural mystery-solving element, and it fizzed out of both. I want to make it clear that I find nothing wrong with being extremely enthusiastic about encouraging talent that is part of an under-represented and under-appreciated group of society. But it has to have more behind it. It can't just be "ooh, the main character is a black/asian/latino woman/gay man so I will watch it". There have to be standards. Otherwise we will stay at the kind of stalemate we are in right now, which is: the suits recognise that a certain volume of viewers is guaranteed when having all those diversity bells and whistles even when the character is treated poorly and narratively shoved to the side. Because they know it's a personal stake for the viewers who follow that pattern and these viewers will do much to keep the ratings afloat just to coninue supporting that diversity except it's not that diversity they are actually supporting. It's the tokenism, the continued (and now inadvertently encouraged) accessorising of diversity they are helping along. This kind of approach just makes it a cool trend to have a PoC in a show as opposed to a legitimate creative need to portray the world around us in all its dimensions. Instead of being this obvious thing the industry does when presented with talents of different groups, it's this handout to cajole the marginals and seem cool while doing it. I kind of see it as the equivalent of guys telling me they love black girls as a way to intimate interest in me. It's gross, fetishising and marks a distinct lack of respect and consideration of me as an individual. It's like professing to love puppies to me, because you know, they are all fluff, cuddly and obedient. It is cute for them but condescending for a human being with a sense of identity and personality. Not only is the POV problematic but the fact that people uttering that think it's a compliment is the saddest part. Because they are saying it does not matter who I am so much as I tick the boxes to get them going. There is a difference between having a physical type and a fetish for a certain group. One is most likely an attempt to recreate an initial positive relationship, in a way trying to to get to the essential by using a physical filter. We all do it unconsciously, that's why you can sometimes see groups of friends that are similar for the same person no matter the stage of their lives, or particularly vapid people are always in groups that have all the guys/girls look and dress the same as they are looking for themselves as friends. Having a fetish, is objectifying the target of the fetish and the person doesn't matter. And it's not a thing only guys do btw, some of my girlfriends did it too and I found it super fucking creepy as well. It just always was one of my biggest pet peeves. And the thing with the attitude towards those actresses is that I feel it is all about wish fulfilment for the fans and no longer about the work they put in. If Abbie was played monotonously and boring and she still had the same following, that would make me immensely sad, because that means the beautiful work Nicole puts in is inconsequential. We have to want better for ourselves than being the default pick. I know I was extremely offended when I was told by my well meaning friend in my last year of highschool that my doubts about not having enough bells and whistles on my university application didn't matter because I am a black girl applying to engineering school. Like I was a collector's item. And imagine my rage when people then said about another friend of mine that she only got into MIT because she was black, like all her achievements did not matter and that wasn't her reward for being excellent, no, that was her getting a pity date. I had never been as pissed in my entire life. So yeah, I might have baggage about this kind of thinking, LOL. Ok I will shut up now.