BrokenRemote

I don't think went off the rails because he didn't get Jessie. That may have been the final thing but his rant on the ground was not "I want that woman and I want Pete dead so I can have her." It was "You people don't get it ". By extension, because they don't get it the town isn't safe, so Rick's family, both kids and extended, is not safe. If it was really only about Jessie, why the speech?

I think I have to take issue with comics readers being post-adolescent fanboys in their parents' basements. A lot of us here are comic readers. I don't even have a basement! :)

Oh, maybe. It was all happening fast. You could be right.

Bah, don't remind us. Where will we go? What will we do? I need to find a scarf to clutch! BE BACK SOOOON!

Oh my lord, I go away for a week or so and you guys write like seventy-ZILLION pages! My sister was a voice major, and she walks around saying that all the time. It's creepy when you just hear it out of the blue in a dark house or whatever. I dream I never graduated high school over some technicality, and I have to go back now and take my senior year again. But something always goes wrong and I can't finish, and it's just awful. Cilantro is evil. When I visited my friend in Texas we couldn't find a Chinese restaurant that didn't cover all their food with cilantro! You can't get food down there without the evil weed strewn all over it. OMG, you guys are my twins! My dad grew up poor and made ok money by the time I came around, and we had one of the first microwaves that came out, and one of the first VCRs. We used to just heat all kinds of random things in the microwave just to watch them, because it was such a novelty. The funny thing about my dad was that he was a total cheapskate. He couldn't spend money but he wanted the things. He actually went to buy the VCR (this was probably 1983, and the thing was $300+. In 1983 money) and he came home, said he knew he could afford it but he couldn't make himself buy it. He made my mom go and get it because he literally could not make himself shell out $300 for something 'frivolous'. Every time we moved and bought a new house he made her sign the check, because he literally couldn't. (Turns out that was the least of his mental problems, but that's a rant for another day...)

OK, I was wrong on that one. But my point is even in the back half of this season, everyone has been giving input (except for Carol). A lot of people seem to see Michonne as Rick's second, as the only person besides him that makes decisions, and I disagree with that. I do agree that Michonne was really pushing for a home, and then for Alexandria especially. She wasn't taking no for an answer. But I don't think she got her way because she's Ricks right-hand-gal or anything like that. She got her way because she wasn't the only one who felt the way she did and others backed her.

And yes, we know that people speculating in the episode threads aren't necessarily "wrong", because we can't know with perfect certainty what's happening in the next episode. But it's been pretty obvious with the Alexandria arc that Kirkman was telling the truth when he said Season 5 was going to be much closer to the comic. While, no, those who read the comics couldn't know 1000%, it was pretty obvious to us that, say, Aaron was on the up and up about taking the group to their safe zone, not there to kill them all in their sleep. It was pretty obvious that Deanna was probably not letting our group in so she could make them work as slaves. Those theories were posted, though, and comic readers could be reasonably sure they weren't going to come to pass. People were speculating that Jessie was abusing Pete, and again, we knew pretty much that, barring a really large departure from the comics (which this arc has been following quite closely), that was not going to happen, either. So I think when people say they knew a theory was "wrong", that's where they're coming from. Nothing can be totally known, because they can depart from the comic at any time. But it would be nice to have a place specifically to talk about the episodes where we'd be free to just acknowledge, for example, that we knew Jessie was probably not abusing Pete and start the conversation from there, rather than being careful what we say so as not to spoil anything. I think that's what watcher0363 is saying, anyway :)

That's what's weird to me. If people liked the sex/relationships/whatever in all those TV shows kikismom mentioned, why do they seem to hate it so much on The Walking Dead? And we know they do: Andrea was a slut, Lori was a whore. Rick's a disgusting monster and Jessie should just die and go away for tempting him. By now in the comics, Michonne's had a few flings. It's weird that none of that crossed over. Kirkman keeps saying they're following the comics more closely than ever. And then there's the already established couples--after a scene or two establishing that they're together, we now barely even see Maggie and Glenn, or Abe and Rosita, in the same room, let along talking or holding hands or kissing. Are TPTB really too scared to bring over that element of the comics? To me, the quote above from Michonne seems so fitting. It's a new world, and morality is an entirely different animal. I'd personally like to see morality evolving not just with regards to who you kill. It's a human thing.

She didn't stop Rick when he was beating a man. Jessie and Carl tried. Michonne didn't stop him until he was waving a gun and ranting. I'd have preferred she did intervene while Rick was beating Pete instead of waiting until she did. Whoever mentioned about her having to make her uniform bigger--it was too big. She was using shoelaces to take it in at the back, pulling the excess fabric together. I pretty much assume on sites like EW.com that people that say outrageously rude and vile things are basically trolls, saying things they know will upset people just to watch the reaction. On popular sites with lots of readers you see trolls much more. You see it on news stories even. I take fan comments on sites like this as much more indicative of how real viewers feel. And there's no denying that Michonne is one of the most popular characters on the show.

Yes, it was the bit about Sam and the gun that seemed like a turning point to me. I think she's a good actress because I could see the horror of that information almost physically shake her. I don't think at all that she said yes to Rick only because she thinks he likes her. It's so much more complex than that, and I think any feelings she thinks Rick has for her are what made her hesitate.

I have to disagree that Rick is only concerned about Jessie and her kids. He planned with Darryl and Carol to get the guns, talked with them about having to take the place over if need be. That's not a man who's only thinking about getting some action and the woman he wants it from. That's a man that's thinking of his people and making plans to keep them safe if need be. Even his crazy outburst is about how the town isn't safe because Deanna doesn't see the danger. Not that it isn't safe for Jessie and her kids, that it isn't safe for anyone. For his family. Also, as far as Rick saying he'd only do this for Jessie--he paused an awfully long time before he said it. My take is that he paused because he was deciding what to say. He knows damned well he'd protect anyone. But he also wants to convey to her that there is something personal here. He's telling her he'd only do it for her. That doesn't mean it's true, or even that he believes it. If he'd come right back with "yes", I'd think differently, but there was an obvious internal struggle there.

So I see what you're saying (although what I'm saying has been a popular topic of research for some time both in the US and overseas) but I'm curious what you (anyone) think is the reason this particular audience is ok with the really violent gory stuff, but is so upset at the thought of adultery? And also why the writers have chosen to leave situations like Tyrese cheating on Carol (Karen) with Michonne out of the show, why Michonne is so different sexually on TV vs the comic and why they've toned down the sex in general? Did it just not work out with the other changes, was it deliberate? Will they go there with Abe "cheating" on Rosita?

Sorry if this creates multiple posts from me, but I basically agree here. Knowing what was coming, a lot of that talk felt off to me--I would have loved to discuss maybe why people think the Rick/Jessie thing reads so wrong and forced to them: was it not conveyed as well as in the comic, is it inherent in the different media, are TV audiences different, demanding of more nuance or more invested in couples than the comics readers, was it just because we already knew where it was going and could relax ? (Although even when I'm not spoiled for a show I don't ever get upset about what might happen, but that's something I'd have liked to explore as well as part of "are TV viewers different than comic readers?") There was some smattering of that discussion in the existing comics thread but it didn't really take off, and my guess is, again, because multiple conversations about very different aspects of the comic are happening at once and it's hard to pick up on just one thread and get a discussion off the ground.

To me the comic thread isn't more active because people are afraid it might have far future spoilers and because people don't talk about a specific episode because the conversation gets off that track--the talk is about the current ep, then another conversation starts about the art in new comic issue (which is fine, don't get me wrong, that's where it goes and it's of interest to me!) them the momentum on talk of the current episode is gone because the last post on it was a ways back, and both conversations interfere with the flow of each other. So then nobody talks. Maybe a sub-forum with comic spoiler ( not TV spoilers) with threads for each episode? Then people don't click on the spoilery one accidentally but the conversation is still more directed to each episode rather than an "all comics" topic that tangled multiple themes in and amongst each other?ETA: or even an all-comics talk and a "TV episodes vs comics" thread. It could be made clear in the title and the opening post that TV spoilers should still spoiler-tagged (like "TV Episodes vs Comic, Spoiler Tag Non-comics spoilers")

I think as Kirkman has made it clear they're planning on using the comic to guide the show that there would be a benefit of having two episode threads each week: one no book, one with book. A couple articles that make me believe the show will continue to use comic story lines and will probably stick closer to the comics than in the beginning (not really spoilery but if you don't want to know how closely the comic and show might go, don't read--I'm assuming most in this thread have comic book knowledge.): http://www.ew.com/article/2014/09/09/walking-dead-robert-kirkman-comic-book-ending http://www.blastr.com/2014-11-3/kirkman-promises-story-completely-changes-season-walking-dead

I have to have closed captioning on, and often the bright turned way up on my TV. I'd think I was prematurely aging and losing my sight and hearing except it's only this show! I've been glad for Alexandria if only for how well-lit the place is.ETA: sorry for 3 posts in a row. I'm using my phone and you can't multi-quote on the mobile site. Usually, if nobody has posted in between, it adds my new post to the last post, making one multi-quoted post, but it didn't today for some reason.

(not sure if that's really even a spoiler but liberal use!) - I just think that in any event, Michonne was the right choice story wise. Daryl would've been a close second story-wise but he wasn't there. I "live tweet" during TWD so I saw a lot of negative Michonne reaction but I also saw the same amount of Michonne support. I like to think that the negative reactions were from people who just watch the show on a baseline level, have their gut reactions to the scene, and probably don't think about it much after (or delve into the show as deeply as we do :)). Admittedly, at first even I was like "Michonne omg! wtf!" but then I was like "Wait, that needed to be done." People keep saying Michonne was the other primary decision maker up to Alexandria, and I just don't see it. Yes, she made a couple suggestions. And Tyrese suggested they go in soft to Grady. Darryl agreed. Glenn suggested a group check out Aaron's story. Abe suggested a small group go to DC. It's been Rick, with the entire group making suggestions and Rick approving or not. Several of them weighed in on following Aaron--Yes, Michonne was pretty adamant, but Darryl said the barn smelled so he was in, others made their feeling known. It's never been the dynamic duo of Rick and Michonne at the top, and I'm always so puzzled when I see that.

I guess if I hadn't felt Michonne had been used too much in the past as an easy way to add "cool" to a scene it wouldn't have annoyed me so much this time. From her introduction I felt the writers often made choices to sacrifice story for "badass moments" with Michonne, so this reads like another one for me. And I feel like the reactions I'm seeing back that up, because every time I get annoyed that Michonne is displayed like a comic book panel of awesomeness instead of getting a line or a scene I log onto social media and see a thousand reactions of "that moment was so badass and awesome!" My question is why does Michonne always have to be the one to "take care of business"? Why do she (and Darryl) get these little "isn't this show cool?" moments( see: low iconic 10-second scene of Darryl leaving Alexandria on his supercool new bike)? The answer to me is because they're fan favorites, and those moments equal an easy win for the writers. So if this episode had been an isolated incident I probably wouldn't have seen it that way. But it's part of a pattern to me, of something that takes me out of the moment on this show. So I question the choice of Michonne being the one who was able to stop Rick, because I can read the writers saying "how do we end this scene? Well, Darryl's not here--I know, Michonne step in and knocks Rick out! I can just hear everyone in America yelling 'You go, Michonne! So fucking badass!' ". It feels contrived with her because they've gone to that well again and again. I would argue Morgan's little end scenes are the exact same contrivance but we see them less (so far).

If they hadn't been trying to say " what a badass" then someone else could have done it, and that's my point about motivation: why was Michonne moved to do it over anyone else? We will probably never be told or shown. Of course, Carl and Jessie tried, but having one of them succeed in breaking up the fight would not have resulted in the iconic "wow, cool" snapshot they go for with Michonne all the time. I haven't come across any backlash, although I don't doubt it. I've seen hundreds of tweets saying she did it "because #Richonne", and "because she was taking care of her man". I think any Michonne backlash for "not knowing her place" would come from hardcore racists who are gonna have awful knee-jerk responses to everything she does. The media and social media response to Michonne from day one has been positive. I just want to see her portrayed with more dimensions instead of always seeing "Go, Michonne, you're the one that takes care of business! What a badass!" And I think we get glimpses of that, but I get frustrated when Michonne is used as a one-dimensional device by the writers rather than a fully-realized character.

I guess I didn't explain it well. I wasn't referring to "scenes", just the knock on the head to Rick. And I wasn't referring to how the other characters see Michonne. I was referring to how the writers use her in such instances as the knock on the head as an instant shorthand to the audience of how cool and badass she is and in turn how awesome and badass the show is without having to do any work writing anything. And it works. I knew I'd come here and find 100 comments basically saying "I loved Michonne knocking Rick out. So cool! So badass!" And I did. With very few comments as to her motivation, except for the shippers. Because why doesn't matter. It looked cool. To me it's basically the writers knowing they can use Michonne as a symbol to instantly ramp up the audience. "So cool! That 5-second shot of a shadowed hooded figure with walkers on chains! So badass, Michonne posing with her katana!" They can get the audience excited without having to put any thought or drama into a scene. Just bring out the "Michonne Action Figure Single -Shot Rubber Stamp" and the audience will go wild. If they go on to explain Michonne's motivation in hitting Rick I'll be very surprised. It took a couple years to explain the walkers on chains. Showing it was enough to instantly get the audience revved up. And to be clear I love the character and think the actress does an awesome job when she's given something to work with. And even when she's just given "Michonne enters stage left, does something badass. And scene."

I loved this episode, how everything that's been building is coming together. The one thing I didn't like was Michonne clicking Rick at the end. They seem to calculate these 2-dimensional moments for Michonne that feel like nothing more than bait to make everyone say " Damn, Michonne was badass!" It's like they use her as an icon or a cardboard cutout to insert into scenes for the sole purpose of eliciting that reaction, whether or not it makes sense in the scene. Robed, cloaked Michonne with her two walkers on chains, Michonne posing with her katana. Visual shorthand moments that don't really mean anything. They're almost like throw-away comic book panels. Michonne should be given more layers than being a rubber stamp for "this scene is meant to be badass". I wonder if the walkers are amassing because of Sasha. Yes, she has a silencer, but there is still some noise. And there's lots of noise when you shoot picture frames. Add in Michonne's gun this episode and all the other noises they've all been making outside the walls...

v It's all down to personal taste, to be sure, but Ginger has really been blowing me away on the runway. Not only have I liked her looks, but there's something about her when she's in drag--she lights up and it's a vivid transformation. I've been trying to put my finger on who Katya reminds me of, and I realized it's Kellie Mantle. Her drag is way better, but they have similar faces. I'm not liking the new Untucked only because it's a pain for me to remember to go out and look for it, and my laptop's dead and my pc is slow with videos and I don't like watching them on my tiny phone screen... I don't mind the new format, but I wish they'd show them on TV, even on another night (because then my DVR would pick it up and I wouldn't have to try to remember it. Surely Logo can sell someone advertising for that half hour--Absolut seems to be gone, but Drag Race is one of their top shows. You can't tell me nobody wants to advertise during Untucked. We were all saying the same thing as a few of you with Jasmine's whole "gluing something to my face will kill me!" speech--she could have put something over her ears with wire. I think she didn't because she wanted to wear that upswept hair, but girl, think out of the box. Make it obvious that it's like that, make it out of paper like the beard in a kid's play, or bedazzle the hell out of it, or make it match your "amazing" dress. If she was creative enough she could have come up with something that would have worked, even if she didn't bring anything with her. So many times the best queens seem to excel when they're thrown something that looks like a problem for them at first.

That's not dumb, it's a side-effect of reading words you've never heard, or that are pronounced in a non-standard way such that you don't realize you've heard them. Young kids who read at an advanced level get that a lot. Where I fear for people is when they use words they've obviously heard but it's fairly apparent they don't read enough to have seen them written a lot, giving us millions of internet posts like "That's completely ludacris" and "I defiantly heard a noise." My favorite, which I thought was unique to a woman I work with but sadly found out is not: "The woman who lives next store is watching my dog." Obviously she has never seen "next door" written down.

That's my point exactly. Several people have said that Jessie only being part of Rick's story, only shown in scenes with Rick, only there to prop up Rick is problematic with regard to how this show portrays women. My point is that Tara was only in scenes with Brian, was only part of Brian's story and was only there to prop up Brian in the same number of episodes Jessie has been in. Which makes me think that the problem to those folks is not that Jessie has only been in scenes with Rick, is only there to tell Rick's story and is only there to prop up Rick. It's not because those things point to a problematic portrayal of women. It's because she's attractive to Rick.

Two things: holding your gun up and putting someone in its sights is not the same as reaching down and touching your gun. Not close. And we'd had weeks, if not months, at that point of other scenes that told us Shane had a problem with Rick. And Rick is not embroiled in a murder plot. He hasn't even responded to what Carol said to him. Carol telling Rick the things she told him can't be "proof" that Rick touching his gun last week means he wants to murder Pete--that scene was Carol's words and actions, not Rick's.