Anothermi

OK. I was just watching a program on the history of British pies (hey! A Viewer's got to keep occupied over the long weekend somehow?! >:-D ) and I learned a couple of pieces of information that relate to this episode. (Yeah, I couldn't figure out where else to put this info, so I hope here is OK. If not, Mods feel free to move it to a more relevant location.) 1) British pies have a long history, and way back when they were the highlight of a Wedding feast. So, that's where Joffrey's Wedding Pie comes from. Further, the richer you were the finer or more exotic the ingredients were. Some pies even contained living things. So Joffrey's Doves fit right in, but of the live items that have actually been put in Historical pies I think Joffrey's should have contained .... live frogs .... or snakes (much more fitting IMO). Which brings me to.... 2) There was one item that was put live in a pie that I am glad wasn't depicted on the show. A young dwarf named Jeffrey Hudson - who at the time was 18 inches tall - was put in a pie, dressed in a full suit of armor. (So it was like people popping out of a cake - not for eating - just to be clear, because this IS GoT.) He emerged from the pie hands first. Did a little dance on the table and was a great sensation. He ended up having quite a varied life (not exactly an easy one) and is depicted in a Vermeer painting with the wife of Charles the First (a Duke "gave him" to Charles). So, dwarves as entertainment? Check. Thank you GRRM for NOT putting any in Joffrey's wedding pie! I'm pretty sure killing someone on your wedding day is as unlucky as killing someone on your name day, even though Joffrey's luck had almost run out, no need to make it worse.

Didn't the Hound just tell us that his Father told the world a lie - that the Hound's bedding caught fire - to explain his burned face and protect Gregor? There HAD to be a House. However, I think they are IT. The Killer and the "killer". One was chaotic and devastating (my original-recipe Mountain) and one was reliable and obedient (the Hound). That is their story to this point. The Hound is an orphan. Abandoned by both his brother and his father. The Other is Ser Clegane! Heir to the Clegane legacy! I think they are the last of their Kind and the Hound - as the younger - sees the changing times sooner than his Brother - the beneficiary of the former "good Clagane Times".

Gingerella, the tree that Bran communed with certainly did look a bit grey, but I assumed that was because it was twilight when they found it. I braved the web for images (reporting back unscathed) and The Winterfell tree is definitely glow-y white with red leaves, but it is surrounded by green-ness and sunlight. I couldn't copy the pic of the tree that Jon and Sam said their Night's Watch vows under but it is grey-ish white near the bottom but appears more white at the top, and the leaves are distinctly red. I also found this picture of Bran & Co approaching the tree in question and it has red leaves and looks whiter than the others around it but a bit washed out. Not as glow-y as the Winterfell tree. Until we see a Weirwood tree north of the wall in day light I'll reserve my speculation on this. I've already flung a wayward spitball that the tree Bran was told to seek "North" was the Winterfell God's Wood tree - partly due to a similar sense as you've put forward - but it missed it's mark by (literally) many, many miles. *Side note* I'd forgotten that the Winterfell Tree was actually in a "woods" because we haven't seen it, except in the credits, since Season 1 (IIRC). That little closed in annex to the Winterfell Keep was actually quite large!

I had/have an inclination to read the books - should we all still be around by the time they are all written ;-). My tendency would normally be to put them on a list of "Things I'm Going to Read At Some Point", but a Virtual Book Club would put them at the top of the list.

The Mountain has been more of a faceless character (literally, not magically) for me, so I didn't notice the change. However, The Mountain of Season 1 really did the trick re: "striking terror to my heart" and I perceived him as an incredibly malevolent force. Once they started showing his face and allowing him to talk all that evaporated - starting in Season 2. Both subsequent actors just didn't live up to The Mountain I had built up in my mind. In fact, this latest one makes me think of Ferdinand: the bull who just wanted to sit in his field and smell the flowers!!? Big and stupid, but not malevolent, regardless of the butchery on display in his scene. It surprises me that despite the rapid humanizing of The Hound (and I am growing fond of the old cur), I find him more frightening than The Mountain at this point. Too Bad, because the concept of The Mountain was so strong in Season 1 and made a real impact on me. Edited for spelling and clarity.

Even if her testimony was ambiguous, Tyrion would see her giving it as proof that she never loved him because: 1 - Shae is still alive, which means Tywin did not kill her like he threatened to do to any whore of Tyrion's that he caught. Any reason for this fact would confirm for Tyrion that Shae never meant any of the things she said to him, or she would be dead. 2 - It fits with his self-belief that he is un-lovable. His father wins once again by proving that the person Tyrion loves could never love him (Tywin's done this once before). And proved it in the most painful way possible to Tyrion. He's in too much pain to entertain other reasons for Shae's behaviour. Loved your whole post, TellSackett, and especially the section on Stark Power! (The George Bailey of Westeros - Hee!) The above quote could have been the title of this episode. Very well noted. Later you go on to state that the Tyrion/Jaime scene basically proved that Jaime could not have sent "knify to kill Bran" and I agree. That, however, reminds me of Cersei's honest emotions on display when telling Catelyn about the death of her 1st born and the above quote now puts that whole scene in a new light and, for me, Cersei has just moved up to number one on the list of suspects re: who actually did "send knify to kill Bran". (and I do know that we most likely will never know the answer to that mystery) I also though Jaime's response to this brazen but true statement was telling of their bond. He did give Tyrion a sharp look and a mild verbal warning (forgot exactly what he did say, but it was gentle like his "sometimes I wonder just who's side you're on?" in the breakfast scene at WinterHell, but a lot shorter). These two seem to have a Valerian steel bond that nothing can break (at least to this point). One last point on the honest emotions/dishonest ends theme. I believe LIttlefinger was being honest with Sansa about his grief at the death of Catelyn, but dishonest about that being the reason he killed Joffrey. He knew it was a reason she would accept/like, but the fact is that it was Tywin who is responsible for Catelyn's death, not Joffrey, and Littlefinger would know that. Joffery's death was a boon of sorts for Tywin and Littlefinger would know that, too. No, PB (Petyr Baelish), as usual, has the long view in mind, but he is not going to tell Sansa anything that won't serve his ends.

I know Bran's story is going glacially slow (pun intended) but I think of it as one less character to fear the death of. They wouldn't kill him off before he actually DOES something - would they? Anyway, I decided to start this thread because it occurred to me that Bran appears to be an Omni-Warg. He's warged animals, people (well, only Hodor so far, but Jojen seems to think that means humans in general, so who am I to argue?) and... the Weirwood tree. So, Flora as well as Fauna and Hodor. (Great title for a sit-com - Flora, Fauna & Hodor too!) Maybe I'm going too far (with my lack of expertise in Warg-ary) in perceiving him have a tree talk to him by putting his hand on it as "warging it", but I don't know what else to call it. Communing I suppose, but that doesn't seem to be strong enough a word for what he did. What ever it was, it was a new skill and he knew he could use it. We haven't seen him do that before. It's got me wondering what else he'll be able to do. Perhaps that is his journey for the rest of this season. Gathering and Applying new magical skills on their way to the north-most GodsWood (Weirwood) Tree. Somebody described it somewhere as a Quest-type journey and so far that's exactly what it's turning out to be. Sorry if the title seems a bit obscure, but I had a brain wave that between Jojen and Bran - both broken in some way and in need of help - that perhaps these kind of magical gifts blossom and grow particularly strong in the physically weak?

OOh! Now that's a concept I could get into. Sadly more for real life than for the show. As for Littlefinger, Bolton et al. Your black & white woodcut image sounds like the Old West "Wanted: Dead..." Posters. And Yes, gingerella... BENJEN! Guess he is a long term campaign.

Never underestimate the power of the Milk Carton Campaign! If the Unsullied hadn't worked so hard complaining about the absence of certain characters they may never have re-appeared. ;-) Not that we've been 100% successful, but then Milk Carton Campaigns never are. :-(

I spend some time deciphering the Big Boring Tome pages that were shown in the episode when Ned twigged to the Baratheon=Black of Hair/Lannister= not so much. I posted some of what I found (not a transcript) on the TWoP board after the end of Season 1. What I found might be helpful to this conversation: I looked at all three Houses that they showed - Targaryen, Umber & Baratheon. I spent more time making out the Baratheon page because that was what was of interest at the time. All the Baratheon entries had the (location) listed as Storm's End. Aegon, I remembered, was the 1st Targaryen who conquered Westeros with Dragon power, so I assumed that he initially landed at Storm's End (it sounds sufficiently coastal). As this was a momentous occasion, dates in Westeros could have been decreed to be calculated from that time (a la A.D & B.C. for the calendar I'm used to). But when I looked at the other two houses they had a different location listed. The Targaryen's birth date was listed from Aegon's landing at King's Landing. The Umber's birth date was Aegon's landing at the Last Hearth (as best as I could make it out). So, you're probably wondering what this has to do with anything by now. The link is the fact that the entries are dated by when Aegon "landed" at each of the Houses' stronghold/Keep/what have you, and that implies that Westeros wasn't conquered in one fell swoop as abelard369 suggests (and I thought that initially as well), but bit by bit. With dragons burning down the towns and cities of sceptic holdouts. (IMHO) To me that strengthens the argument that there used to be many Kings. Add that to the point Pallas made about the place being referred to as The Seven Kingdoms and I think the argument is practically made. But the one other thing I read in that fascinating book was that one of the Baratheon wives was listed as ..."daughter of Arealic the Arrogant, last of the Stormkings". I took that as the last king (of that area) before Ageon "landed" AKA took over. Heh, I guess with dragons as transport he really did "land" as in touched down, as opposed to just arrived. Since Ageon "landed" at a different location for each House, I doubt Arealic the Arrogant was King of them all, just Storm's End perhaps? - Robert's home turf. As an interesting side note, the entries gave physical descriptions of boys... but not girls. I also noted, in passing, that one Baratheon was married to a Targaryen (clearly a spare sister). Later another poster confirmed this for others. We now know Rhaegar married outside of the Targaryen line to a Martell, but that might have been due more to the fact that he had no eligible sisters at the time? (When Robert's Rebellion happened Dany was just a baby or not even born yet.) I could see "extra" Targaryens females being strategicly married off, just like daughters of other Westeros Houses. ETA: Abelard wrote: Hmm. I thought a siege WAS a blockade. It's purpose was to starve the inhabitants into submission as full out battle was not a viable option for the particular location.

Shimpy, I've taken this to the speculation thread. It's about Baelor so doesn't really belong in the Stark thread.

Nicely put, abelard - re: the poetic irony of Bran slaying the man who crippled the man who crippled him... I hadn't given that much thought, but it is absolutely true. However, as with many things in real life, this will go un-noticed by the players in the drama we are watching. :-/

I can't say how happy I was that Jorah got to go back to being Dany's wise and trusted counsellor (for a moment anyway). I used to really enjoy their interactions when he was teaching her the ways of the Dothraki, the history of TPTB (or were at that point) in Westeros. He lost his mojo when he exposed his love for her and became the friendzone-moper that this thread's title refers to. Go Jorah. Further, he expressed concern about what happened to the former slaves that Dany "freed" which tells me that he has either changed his POV on slavery from when he sold his poachers in Westeros, or that act was an aberration; one of a "desperate man", a man who was driven by his desire to please/appease his wife and needed money to do that. Whatever it was, that scene told me that Jorah is now capable of a principled POV.

Pallas, Thanks for reminding me about what Jaime said about Aerys in the bath scene. I checked White Stumbler's post containing the transcript of that speech and Jaime said he cut Aerys throat for good measure - just as insurance against the possibility of him becoming a dragon (animal division). I'm paraphrasing. I, too, assumed that what Viserys meant by the phrase "Dragon" was just 'monarch'. Once we twigged to the fact that Dany was fireproof I changed my thinking about it. I think Selmy and Jorah have both referred to Rhaegar as a true Dragon, so they make some kind of a distinction - but I don't know what makes a Targ a "Dragon" in their view. I had always thought that Aerys was fireproof due to being Targaryen and loving to burn people, but his fireproof-ness has never been stated definitively. It is more than possible that non-fireproof Targs could be obsessed with fire. I remember, vaguely, Joffrey regaling Marg with the crazy antics of some of the Targ kings during their tour of the ... Sept? The ones he spoke about seemed to have killed themselves in ridiculous ways related to trying to become a "real dragon" (animal division). But it was Tywin's recent recounting of the failings of the recently mentioned Targ kings (from Baelor to whomever else) that caused me to think about how many Targ kings laboured under the delusion that they were Dragons and that they would turn into "real dragons" when they died. It just seemed to me that Aerys fit in with that crowd rather than Dany or Rhaegar (who at least had a few people vouch for him as compared to Aerys, who appeared to be universally hated). Dany is the only true "Dragon" we've seen, and the craziest we've seen her was in S02 with her constant shouting about her dragons. I don't think we've been given any indication by the show that Dany has heard about the resurrection myth. Somebody - Jorah? - gave her books about the history of Westeros (her history) but, again, I haven't seen any indication that she has even cracked one open.

Loved this. Late to view the episode, but you caught everything I did. Great summary! *Shudder* I was able to delete that fact until you mentioned it. Ugh. Snowblack: Yes! Totally support this. I noted that quote as well. Make it so! Hmmm. All the Targaryen Kings I remember hearing about - from Joffrey in one case and Tywin in another - were all faux-dragons. Targ Kings who believed they were Dragons right up until they died trying to prove it. Even Viserys thought he was a Dragon and he was pretty damn crazy. Based on this, albeit limited, history; I'm of the opinion that the authentic "Dragon" Targs are likely to be the sane ones. And on a completely tangential note - because I am so late to discussing this episode... *small voice* I kinda felt bad when Locke was offed so quickly. Of all the bad guys, he was one I actually "liked". He was competent - maybe even good - at his job. He could act deceptively (when needed - see Night's Watch). He had logical reasons for his actions (even if, with Jaime, it was based on class hatred, or just plain smart-alec-hating). Heck! I'd even suggest he was "honourable" within the context that he functioned. He did what he was told and didn't (comparatively) seem to be a sadist. (Jaime's hand amputation excepted, but there were exacerbating factors there) ;-) Hmmff. I would like to have had a bit more story line on him. Or maybe it's just that I felt able to relax a wee bit when Locke was part of the narrative because I didn't believe he'd be going off on some gory tangent, he'd just do what he was sent to do. */small voice*

Thanks you for that suggestion. It's a great idea. How do posters become informed about new house rules?

All plausible possibilities, but what is still unclear is Why was the Hand of the King not in King's Landing? Ned had to move there to be the Hand and was expected to live there. I'd gone with your second alternative for quite a while, but that was because I thought Tywin was just another Lord by then and not Hand of the King. Maybe this is true? Perhaps the Mad King had given Tywin his notice before the Rebellion broke out, or even after? There is that possibility. The fact that Pycelle had to talk the Mad King into letting Tywin and his army IN is interesting. It may be that the Mad King was just that, and also Crazy and Capricious. (Going by Viserys - and a lot of other Targaryen Kings we've heard about - it's not much of a stretch) So it might have been necessary to convince him to make any kind of rational decision. That's assuming Tywin was still the Hand, it would seem to be rational to let him into the city. Using 20/20 hindsight, the Mad King's not wanting to let Tywin in seems an intelligent position. ;-)

Good points Ms. Microphone (sorry, the Mr. always brings a male image to my mind. I never realized just how visually oriented I was.) For me the "good" part about the points are: 1) Tywin probably WAS involved in quelling the Greyjoy rebellion because he was personally affected. So my spec about the non-murder of the Greyjoy progeny vis a vis Tywin's lack of involvement is probably in error and the 2nd spec about the lack of importance of said progeny is likely more on track. AND... 2) Although I don't quite understand why Tywin was NOT in King's Landing when the KingSlaying took place (or before that) it would make sense that when he "arrived" back he would be let in without question. And the question should have been "Do you come to support the true (if mad) King Aeries Targaryen?" He was The Hand! so no-one would consider that he might have changed allegiances between when he left (for what ever reason) and when he returned. And further to the above thoughts... I harbour the suspicion That the Mad King was still alive when Tywin returned and that Tywin had some influence over Jamie's decision to Kill the King. But, from what we have see so far I am now inclined to believe the King Slaying was Jaime's own decision at the time and the Tywin's influence (if you could cite it as such) was Jaime's awareness of how much his father hated Aeries (which I have no doubt he did). That might have been the scale-tipping factor for the young Jaime Lannister - given all the other, perhaps more valid, reasons. At any rate, thanks for the food for thought.

Those are all the "wars" that I can think of as well. It is interesting to note the differences in how the children of the losing side were treated between Robert's rebellion and the Iron Islander's Rebellion. And I think it has to do with the lack of the presence of Tywin (although I can't be sure of this) in the Iron Island one. In the 1st all the children were killed (or would have been had D & V not escaped somehow) while in the 2nd the youngest child, Theon (sounds like he wasn't fighting age), and his sister were not threatened with death. Due to Good Old - we-don't-kill-children - Ned again, I'm sure - but it might also have been because there was not as much power to lose or gain with the defeat of Balon Greyjoy, so his remaining progeny weren't as important to eliminate. Re: who Oberyn's sister was married to - Oberyn told Tyrion that Rhaegar ran off with another woman and left his sister (who ended up killed by the Mountain). Rhaegar was Dany's brother so it would have been "the Targaryen children" of him & Oberyn's sister who were killed.

Now you've got me trying to remember back to S01. When the shit started to hit the fan we had Renly taking Ned aside to try to get Ned to support his bid to become the next King. Then Ned (being Ned) sends a "rider in the night" to Stannis informing him there are no legitimate Heirs to the throne, so he's IT. Waiting outside the Hand's chamber is Littlefinger (who I was sure was going to suss out what was going on and have the "rider-in-the-night" killed enroute, but he actually missed that one) who came in to try to get Ned to support?? ... I forget. Does anyone remember who? I thought it was Renly at this point (because he would be more reasonable than Joffrey/Cersei). Anywhoo, Ned went all 'Ned' on LF who promptly slime'd his way around Ned promising the (City) Guard would be in the Red Keep at the appointed time and that he could guarantee Ned that they would follow whomever paid them. Ned read this phrase as guilelessly as he did everything LF said after Catelyn said LF was and old and trusted friend. ETA: OOh. I almost forgot! The WW/baby scene in the WW "Temple" made me think on Melisandre's scene with Stannis' daughter where she says "there are only 2 Gods. The Lord of Light and the (?) of Darkness." I wonder if the WW are the Lords of Darkness (or his minions) in her faith? However, if that is the case I find it ironic because the Lord of Light gets power by destroying people with fire while (my speculative) Lord of Darkness gets HIS by giving 'people' a NEW 'life'.

I have a plea to our benevolent WhiteCloaks... Given the, uh, disruption (for lack of a better word) caused by the early and emphatic speculation that Olenna stole the poisoned jewel from Sansa's necklace...and dropped it in Joffrey's wine some how. And especially the accompanying screen grabs which I, personally, find difficult - if not impossible - to ignore... Could I ask that an Unsullied Habitat Rule be put in place that no screen-grab images be allowed in the Unsullied area? Just links to screen grabs - which worked well for the grabs of the Book of the Knights Watch. It is a confusing transition to make (for me at least) from TWoP rules to Previously.TV rules. (I can't imagine what trying to Mod a pre-established group must be like for you guys.) What I know is that I have developed a strong ability - from my past 3 GoT seasons at TWoP - to resist clicking on links but can't say the same for images - because they are just THERE. You see them before you have time to think. I believe the speculation would have been a lot broader and the discussion wider ranging if the images hadn't dominated the "reading" experience. Just putting this out there in hopes that it might assist both Me (in my unsullied speculation) and You (in your greatly appreciated work assisting the Unsullied experience).

Well, THAT was tense - especially the Craster Keep section. Poor Hodor. (and as someone else pointed out...Meera!) - Glad to see Sansa is finally getting a bit suspicious of people like LIttlefinger, BUT, after he laid out how he killed Joffrey and implicated her didn't she say "I don't believe you." Chip off the old block (Ned in this case, not Catelyn). - I agree with Choc Butterfly that Jaime is protecting Brienne (and Pod on behalf of Tyrion) more than he is protecting Sansa. At least he is leaning in the right direction. He is no longer doing what ever it takes to please Cersei. - I think there must have been an apprentice scar-creator make-up person on this episode because there seemed to be a Westerosi trend to facial scars (on the left hand side cheek). Jon Snuh (thanks WS) had one as did Jaime & Locke. I think I'm missing others but I haven't rewatched. It just struck me how many there were this episode - and all on the same side of the face! Thanks, Skywarpgold, for the link to the rules clarification. They seem similar to the Boards on Boards rule at TWoP, so I can understand the reasons behind that. Also continued thanks for the WhiteCloak's work assisting our unsullied-ness.

Thank you for your painstaking work on this DirewolfPup and AlphaLine. I found this visual list very enlightening and had an Ah Ha! spitball moment reading it (which means everybody duck as this is likely to be a badly flung one). LOOK FOR ME........BENEATH THE TREE.......NORTH *deep breath* What if Jojen has interpreted his "visions" wrong. What if north doesn't mean north of the Wall, but means "The North" and the weirwood tree they are seeking is the one that represents The North and the one we continue to see in the credits at WinterPile! That may be what Bran's "I know where we have to go" means (said with resignation). Yikes. If that is true, it means they will end up heading straight back towards Bolton and Co. and the Thenns, and the Wildling advance-murder party. Wouldn't that be just the way this story rolls? Mmm-huh? I think so, but I've been crazy wrong before so, as I warned, duck and cover.

Hey, I broke out the upper case so as to fit in with the upper class environment we have here. But grog! goes with anything. Glad to be back.

Helloooooo... *waves* *cranes neck* *searches for something familiar & stumbles into Unspoiled Speculation Thread* Wow. It seems like yesterday I was mourning the demise of the TWoP thread and *poof* in what feels like an instant (OK, I was away which might account for the swift passage of GoT time) I'm "mourning Joffrey" and we've moving into digs so swanky that I'm having trouble finding my bearings. It's good to be back surrounded by unspoiled faces (some familiar and some not but all friendly at least - and clever). It IS a little disconcerting to adjust to all. this. space. and the presence of benevolent White Cloaks (but thank you so much for that presence). There has been so much great speculation. I think I'll leave this post as my "I'm Home!" greeting and go off in search of posts to quote to assist my own spitball forming thoughts. Be back soon.