Paloma

Initially I was more sympathetic to Mr. Porter, but the more I think about the meeting with Hannah the more I feel that he could have handled things better and done more to help her. He was apparently concerned about her even before she came in, so when she started expressing what a counselor should recognize as suicidal thoughts (or at least deeply depressed thoughts) he should have, at a minimum, talked about that explicitly and given her a suicide hotline number. I also think he should have called her parents and let Hannah know that he was calling them because they all needed to work together to help her. She might have gotten angry, but at least they could have kept closer watch on her. I think he was trying to be sensitive about the rape questioning, and saying "Did you consent and then change your mind?" was not necessarily him saying that she was not raped--he may have intended to lead into the idea that it is still rape if she said no at any point. But he clearly was not skilled in this line of questioning. Better counselor training might have helped, but this is another example of it being easy to see what someone did wrong but not so easy to say exactly what they should have done. For example, if I were the counselor I might have wanted to call the police and report a rape, but I doubt that anything could have been done if Hannah wouldn't give Bryce's name. He also could have reported it to the principal and vice-principal, but again, to what end? One thing that seemed unrealistic to me was how Hannah kept up her appearance--nice outfits, perfect makeup, clean and styled hair (despite having been cut, the style was still kind of chic)--right up until the end. Based on both personal experience and what I've read as an editor of psychiatric texts, a common symptom in people who are clinically depressed and/or suicidal is loss of interest in hygiene and personal appearance. This was especially noticeable in comparison with Jessica, whose appearance and dress deteriorated as she spiraled (though this may have been more attributable to the abuse of alcohol and drugs). Hannah's continuing good looks may be one reason why some critics of the series (like the Post article I linked above) worry that it may cause other teens to copy her actions.

Agree that the post-series segment was extremely valuable. I recommended the series on my Facebook page and specifically said to be sure to watch the post-series segment.

Although I think this was a powerful series that everyone should see--especially those who are teens, relatives of teens, and those who work with teens in schools and other settings--this article makes a compelling argument for the series possibly doing more harm than good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/04/14/the-problem-with-how-13-reasons-why-treats-suicide/?utm_term=.8434f34af1a7 But despite the concerns expressed in the article, I still think it is important to have a show deal realistically with the issues of bullying, sexual assault, and suicide among young people. This is somewhat nitpicky, but I was really bothered by the fact that Clay's mother was the attorney for the school and did not withdraw from the case even after finding out that her son was involved and (even worse) that he would be deposed and she would prepare him for testifying. How was this not an obvious conflict of interest?

Most of what Bryce said on tape was making it sound like Hannah was coming on to him or at least was going along with it, so I don't think that last "If you want to call it rape" statement would count for much. In any case, wouldn't the tape be inadmissible in court because he was not aware of being recorded? It's not like Clay had a warrant.

I'm a bit lost in the timeline also, but I thought that the apology about not noticing her new hair was actually one of the fantasy scenes (things he wish he had said or done). But I could be wrong.

First of all: WTF, Tony?! Do you want another teen suicide on your hands? I know he asked, but geez. I know Clay has wanted everyone else to take responsibility for their actions, but Hannah herself said they were ALL responsible. Not just one person. Not only did Tony tell a guy who is already on the emotional edge that he (Clay) was responsible for Hannah killing herself, but he drove him to the top of a cliff to finish listening to that tape! And sure enough, a distraught Clay goes to the edge of the cliff and Tony has to talk him off the emotional and literal edge. Geez, Tony, couldn't you take him someplace safer to have the inevitable breakdown? I was also angry at Hannah for making this tape because, even though she ultimately said that Clay did not belong on it, by making this tape about him and what she perceived as his rejection of her, she guaranteed that he would feel guilty probably forever. Having been a teenager girl myself as well as the mother of one, I completely understand how your perceptions can be off and how what seems like no big deal to someone else seems like the end of the world to you, BUT Clay did everything he could to show how much he cared about her and did not want to leave her alone. What was he supposed to do when she screamed at him to leave her alone and get out, especially since everything seemed to be so nice between them up to that point? He respected her wishes (unlike all the other guys) and did what she demanded, but she expected him to be a mind-reader and know that she really wanted the opposite of what she was expressing.

Maybe it will become clear in later tapes/episodes, but I don't understand why Brice is not depicted as the main villain in this tape and why he apparently does not have his own tape. Justin can certainly be blamed for not doing more to stop the rape or for lying to Jessica, but Brice is the rapist (and also sexually assaulted Hannah in a previous episode, when they were in the store). Why is everyone, and especially Justin, protecting Brice to the point that Justin is wanting to kill Clay to prevent the story coming out?

If I had read that poem out of the context of the show, I probably would not have thought it meant that the writer was suicidal. Poets or would-be poets use dramatic imagery and often write about dark themes, but most of them are not suicidal or even seriously depressed. If the school staff were paying attention, there were plenty of warning signs about Hannah and other students, but I don't think the poem could reasonably have been seen to be one of them--especially since her name wasn't on it. I also think that Mr. Porter has really tried to reach out to some students, but they keep stonewalling and/or lying to him. There is only so much a counselor or other school staff can do to help without accurate information.

I appreciated the humor also, but the conversation made me wonder why Tony has not been a target of bullies at the school. Is it just because they know his "tough" reputation? The rest of the conversation between Tony and Clay also made me wonder about the nature of the relationship between Tony and Hannah and how/when it began. In a previous "present time" episode we saw that her mother greeted him as if he were an old family friend or good friend of Hannah's, but I didn't see signs of Hannah having much of a connection with him in the flashbacks. Why would she have given him the tapes and entrusted him with the responsibility for making sure people hear her story? For that matter, Tony and Clay seem to have history (with Clay's mother knowing Tony and his father) as well as the Hannah connection, but it's unclear what that history is. I'm assuming that they were childhood friends who maybe grew apart in high school, but why is Tony so protective of him?

Little question driving me crazy: What does "FML Forever" mean? I assume this is something like BFF but can't work it out.

Yeah, at this point in the series (and I'm sure it will get worse) I'm thinking that almost all high school students--but especially guys--are horrible. I want to believe that this is fiction and that really most high schoolers are good kids, but after reading all the real news stories of sexual assault and cyberbullying in the last few years, the story presented in this series is all too believable. Me, too, especially since my experience as parent of a moody high schooler is more recent than my experience of being one. I often get annoyed at Clay's mom for being so intrusive, which I'm sure makes him even less likely to tell her anything, but I also understand that this intrusiveness comes our of her love and concern.

sistermagpie, great post as usual! I'm not quoting the whole thing (because of the length), but the quoted point is interesting because it illustrates another way that the time period is so important to the overall plot of the series. Similar to the lack of cellphones and the computerized data on a large scale, the lack of expectation for close parental supervision helps allow P&E to get away with their secret lives. Yet things would be very different just a few years later--my daughter was born in 1983, just in time for the beginning of the helicopter parenting era (caused in part by the media coverage of kidnapped and murdered children). We moved to the DC suburbs (in Maryland, not Virginia, but they are very similar) in 1988 when our daughter was 5, and every aspect of her life was closely supervised--no free play outside of our yard when she was little, and no going over to friends' houses without parental permission and coordination until mid-teens (when the kids began to drive). Any parent who did not provide this level of supervision, at least among the middle-class or upper-middle-class neighborhoods like the one P&E live in, might be viewed with suspicion by other parents and possibly by the authorities. Some of you may have read about the parents from this area that got in trouble for letting their kids walk alone--although this happened in the last couple of years, I think the attitudes and debate about the issue would have been similar in the late 1980s: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/01/15/parents-investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/21795863/

It was definitely Katy Perry: Thanks for the link! But to my old ears it does sound a lot like Taylor Swift's style, especially the beginning.

Yes! I kept saying this throughout the episode--couldn't believe how everyone left their blinds/curtains open at night with interior lights on. Of course, it is necessary for the plot, but it was still distracting. Agree on the praise for the adult actors, but I'm having a hard time not seeing the principal as Vaughn Du Clark--he made quite the impression in that role!

So glad this show is really back--not just first episode "setting things up" back. I absolutely loved the combination of humor (especially Major on teen brain), emotion, and mystery and can't wait to rewatch to catch all the little things that fly by. My only small complaint is that it wasn't clear how Liv reflected the bank manager brain, aside from the dad-like admonitions to Major; for example, where did Liv's sudden mechanical aptitude come from? Maybe something was said about the dad having that skill in an earlier scene, but I don't remember. Never thought of Blaine, but it makes sense that he would want the ability to turn people into zombies. If you are referring to the song Major was singing, wasn't that Taylor Swift? But don't trust my musical knowledge--I am in my 60s, though I do still like a lot of today's music.

Its Gus, and I think it is likely that it is Gus because Gus wants to extract his own revenge on Hector, after extracting as much profit as possible. If you aren't familiar with the Breaking Bad universe, of course, you dont know this. I did think of Gus, though I don't remember the details of why he wanted revenge on Hector. I just didn't think Gus was part of the story yet, considering the BB vs. BCS timeline. Hopefully this will become clearer in the next episode(s).

After rewatching most of season 2 and then this episode, I've concluded that Chuck really is the "bad" brother. Jimmy may do some bad things, but he is fundamentally a good person and loyal to those he cares about (especially Chuck), even at the risk of hurting himself (such as when he ran over to the copy shop after Chuck fell). When Jimmy transposed the numbers in the file, I think he was focusing on reversing the wrong done to Kim and did not realize how extreme an effect the consequences would have for Chuck.

I got that, but I'm still confused about how they tracked him to the shooting site in the hills/desert. I thought that the car he took apart at the junkyard was one he picked up just for the shooting (in the same way he apparently got a different junker car for the truck driver trap with the spiked hose). How would his watcher(s) have gotten a tracker on something that was not his regular car? I also first thought, as suggested by Shapeshifter upthread, that Nacho left the "Don't do it" note. But my husband said that wasn't possible because Mike would have seen him come out of the shack and head up toward where Mike was. There wasn't enough time for Nacho to get up there, put the branch in the horn, and get back down to the shack without Hector noticing. Finally, who would want to warn Mike off of killing Hector? It almost seems like someone trying to protect Mike rather than someone caring about what happens to Hector (because if it was an ally of Hector, why not just kill Mike?), but I can't think of anyone other than Jimmy that would fit that description. My husband thought it might be the Philly cops tracking him, but I don't remember enough about that story to know if that is possible or makes sense. Oops, I was typing while Ghoulina posted this--much more clearly stated than what I said.

One thing that's not clear (well, one of many) is where Clay is in the chain of people who are meant to listen to the tapes. Obviously at least a few other people (Tony, Jessica, Alex, maybe Justin and one or more of his friends) have already heard them. Since the show is focusing on Clay, is he the last one who needs to hear them? I'm not sure if the order of who listens matters, but it doesn't seem like Hannah intended it to be random.

Even though we are probably polar opposites of the target audience, my husband and I (in our late 60s) are fans of other shows with much younger target audiences and the concept sounded interesting, so we decided to try this one. The first episode did not really draw us in, partly because we were having trouble keeping track of characters and partly because of the unrealistic dialogue coming out of most of the teens' mouths. Today we decided to watch two more episodes before giving up on the series, and now I think we are hooked. It's interesting to see the causes and effects of the suicide from various standpoints (including adults), and it is a depressing and realistic reminder of how teenagers can be both cruel and sensitive. But the drawn-out structure is still kind of annoying (although Clay does explain that he can only listen in bits and pieces because of anxiety, which makes sense in light of his apparent history), the timeline is still confusing, and I'm still trying to figure out how and when Jessica ended up with Justin. Also, I hope we don't have to wait for the last episode to get a good explanation for Tony's involvement.

Thanks for clarifying that! I was confused about why Clive needed to give his card to Vivian (wondering why he couldn't get in touch with them directly now that he had seen Wally), but it makes sense that having the contact go through Vivian would let the family know he understood the zombie situation.

I thought that the whole family was infected along with the rest of the employees and their families (first by the exotic virus brought back from Ecuador or wherever, then by zombieism when Vivian scratched everyone to "save" them from a horrible death) at the July 4th company retreat that Vivian told our heroes about. I was assuming that one of Wally's parents was an employee of F-G and that's why the family would have been at the picnic. Otherwise, how would Wally have gotten infected and why would he have been at the school for zombie employees?

Also, wouldn't the annual mortality rate includes plenty of people who would not be of much use in an army--babies and small children, disabled people, disabled people? It's not like everyone who dies is young and fit, but I forget whether turning zombie in this show gets rid of all physical weaknesses.

Vivian's description of the blackmail situation seems to perfectly fit what Blaine was doing, and I thought that the looks exchanged between Liv and Major (and Clive?) were suggesting that they recognized that. I'm pretty sure that Major did not kill any of the people he kidnapped.

Or maybe one of her "soldiers" went rogue because he wanted to start a war that he figured the zombies would win? But it's still unclear to me how killing that family would start a war, or, if they were not killed by Vivian or one of her team, how the murderer would know they were zombies.