Paloma

Justin chose not to stop Bryce? He knocked, entered the room, tried to grab Bryce off of her and then was shoved back, shoved out of the door and Bryce locked the door behind him. That's not doing nothing in my book. Could he or should he have done more? Yes, absolutely. But I can't co-sign he chose to do nothing. But wasn't there a brief exchange between Bryce and Justin at the door before Bryce went in, when Bryce said something suggesting that they could share Jessica (something like "what's mine is yours")? Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I thought Justin felt guilty not just because he didn't stop Bryce (and then lied to Jessica) but because he was complicit in allowing Bryce to go in the room in the first place. Of course, they were both drunk and/or high, but I think Justin knew what Bryce intended to do and did not initially make an effort to stop him.

I thought it was meant to show how busy/overloaded he was, thus not being able to give enough attention to any one student. Both his landline (school) phone and cell phone seemed to be ringing, so it probably wasn't just his wife--although it might have been if she was urgently trying to get in touch with him. But in that case I would expect that she would text him to say it was urgent, and he would excuse himself for a moment to text back or take the call (though of course if he did that, we would be criticizing him for not paying enough attention to Hannah).

When my husband and I were watching, it came on automatically after the last regular episode. Apparently this was how it was intended to appear, so I don't know why some people had to look for it. Here's an explanation that I found in an interesting piece on the pros and cons of this series as a Netflix show: https://cultural-learnings.com/2017/04/02/13-reasons-why-is-a-teen-show-built-for-netflix-for-better-or-worse/ "And when I eventually reached the end of the show’s season, I was surprised when my Netflix continued to auto-play into a 30-minute featurette....The choice to have this bonus content play automatically upon completing the season is notable: I can’t think of another Netflix show where this has happened, and it shows an intriguing use of the distinct nature of Netflix distribution. By using the flow of “auto-play” in this way, Netflix presents the show’s educational function as part of the show itself—while some might immediately stop the feature from playing, and it does not appear as a formal “episode” of the show (buried instead in the “Trailers & More” tab), that most viewers will be presented with it in the moments following the show’s conclusion is nonetheless meaningful outreach and highlights the show’s strength in this area."

I don't see Porter as creepy or sketchy at all. He comes across as well-meaning but maybe not properly trained to deal with these problems. He certainly seems to care more about the students than the principal and some other teachers.

I thought this review was perfect, but don't read it until you finish the series: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/04/09/13-reasons-why-is-netflixs-best-new-show-in-years/#49aaacf96560

My high school days are probably much longer past than yours, but I also vividly remember the cheerleading tryouts as a popularity contest. I performed the routines well but was not part of the popular crowd that made up the current squad and helped the gym teacher choose new members. The interesting thing is that I made both JV and varsity cheerleading in college (where there was no "popular crowd" and those who made the decisions didn't know much about you), which kind of confirms my sense that the high school tryouts were based on popularity. Although they didn't focus on the connection of cheerleading to popularity in this series, it was interesting that one of early aspects of Jessica's spiraling was her being benched from a game because she was late. Cheerleaders are expected to maintain a certain public image, even if they do a lot of stuff contrary to that image in private, and I suspect that she would have lost popularity if her spiraling eventually resulted in getting kicked off the squad.

Initially I was more sympathetic to Mr. Porter, but the more I think about the meeting with Hannah the more I feel that he could have handled things better and done more to help her. He was apparently concerned about her even before she came in, so when she started expressing what a counselor should recognize as suicidal thoughts (or at least deeply depressed thoughts) he should have, at a minimum, talked about that explicitly and given her a suicide hotline number. I also think he should have called her parents and let Hannah know that he was calling them because they all needed to work together to help her. She might have gotten angry, but at least they could have kept closer watch on her. I think he was trying to be sensitive about the rape questioning, and saying "Did you consent and then change your mind?" was not necessarily him saying that she was not raped--he may have intended to lead into the idea that it is still rape if she said no at any point. But he clearly was not skilled in this line of questioning. Better counselor training might have helped, but this is another example of it being easy to see what someone did wrong but not so easy to say exactly what they should have done. For example, if I were the counselor I might have wanted to call the police and report a rape, but I doubt that anything could have been done if Hannah wouldn't give Bryce's name. He also could have reported it to the principal and vice-principal, but again, to what end? One thing that seemed unrealistic to me was how Hannah kept up her appearance--nice outfits, perfect makeup, clean and styled hair (despite having been cut, the style was still kind of chic)--right up until the end. Based on both personal experience and what I've read as an editor of psychiatric texts, a common symptom in people who are clinically depressed and/or suicidal is loss of interest in hygiene and personal appearance. This was especially noticeable in comparison with Jessica, whose appearance and dress deteriorated as she spiraled (though this may have been more attributable to the abuse of alcohol and drugs). Hannah's continuing good looks may be one reason why some critics of the series (like the Post article I linked above) worry that it may cause other teens to copy her actions.

Agree that the post-series segment was extremely valuable. I recommended the series on my Facebook page and specifically said to be sure to watch the post-series segment.

Although I think this was a powerful series that everyone should see--especially those who are teens, relatives of teens, and those who work with teens in schools and other settings--this article makes a compelling argument for the series possibly doing more harm than good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/04/14/the-problem-with-how-13-reasons-why-treats-suicide/?utm_term=.8434f34af1a7 But despite the concerns expressed in the article, I still think it is important to have a show deal realistically with the issues of bullying, sexual assault, and suicide among young people. This is somewhat nitpicky, but I was really bothered by the fact that Clay's mother was the attorney for the school and did not withdraw from the case even after finding out that her son was involved and (even worse) that he would be deposed and she would prepare him for testifying. How was this not an obvious conflict of interest?

Most of what Bryce said on tape was making it sound like Hannah was coming on to him or at least was going along with it, so I don't think that last "If you want to call it rape" statement would count for much. In any case, wouldn't the tape be inadmissible in court because he was not aware of being recorded? It's not like Clay had a warrant.

I'm a bit lost in the timeline also, but I thought that the apology about not noticing her new hair was actually one of the fantasy scenes (things he wish he had said or done). But I could be wrong.

First of all: WTF, Tony?! Do you want another teen suicide on your hands? I know he asked, but geez. I know Clay has wanted everyone else to take responsibility for their actions, but Hannah herself said they were ALL responsible. Not just one person. Not only did Tony tell a guy who is already on the emotional edge that he (Clay) was responsible for Hannah killing herself, but he drove him to the top of a cliff to finish listening to that tape! And sure enough, a distraught Clay goes to the edge of the cliff and Tony has to talk him off the emotional and literal edge. Geez, Tony, couldn't you take him someplace safer to have the inevitable breakdown? I was also angry at Hannah for making this tape because, even though she ultimately said that Clay did not belong on it, by making this tape about him and what she perceived as his rejection of her, she guaranteed that he would feel guilty probably forever. Having been a teenager girl myself as well as the mother of one, I completely understand how your perceptions can be off and how what seems like no big deal to someone else seems like the end of the world to you, BUT Clay did everything he could to show how much he cared about her and did not want to leave her alone. What was he supposed to do when she screamed at him to leave her alone and get out, especially since everything seemed to be so nice between them up to that point? He respected her wishes (unlike all the other guys) and did what she demanded, but she expected him to be a mind-reader and know that she really wanted the opposite of what she was expressing.

Maybe it will become clear in later tapes/episodes, but I don't understand why Brice is not depicted as the main villain in this tape and why he apparently does not have his own tape. Justin can certainly be blamed for not doing more to stop the rape or for lying to Jessica, but Brice is the rapist (and also sexually assaulted Hannah in a previous episode, when they were in the store). Why is everyone, and especially Justin, protecting Brice to the point that Justin is wanting to kill Clay to prevent the story coming out?

If I had read that poem out of the context of the show, I probably would not have thought it meant that the writer was suicidal. Poets or would-be poets use dramatic imagery and often write about dark themes, but most of them are not suicidal or even seriously depressed. If the school staff were paying attention, there were plenty of warning signs about Hannah and other students, but I don't think the poem could reasonably have been seen to be one of them--especially since her name wasn't on it. I also think that Mr. Porter has really tried to reach out to some students, but they keep stonewalling and/or lying to him. There is only so much a counselor or other school staff can do to help without accurate information.

I appreciated the humor also, but the conversation made me wonder why Tony has not been a target of bullies at the school. Is it just because they know his "tough" reputation? The rest of the conversation between Tony and Clay also made me wonder about the nature of the relationship between Tony and Hannah and how/when it began. In a previous "present time" episode we saw that her mother greeted him as if he were an old family friend or good friend of Hannah's, but I didn't see signs of Hannah having much of a connection with him in the flashbacks. Why would she have given him the tapes and entrusted him with the responsibility for making sure people hear her story? For that matter, Tony and Clay seem to have history (with Clay's mother knowing Tony and his father) as well as the Hannah connection, but it's unclear what that history is. I'm assuming that they were childhood friends who maybe grew apart in high school, but why is Tony so protective of him?

Little question driving me crazy: What does "FML Forever" mean? I assume this is something like BFF but can't work it out.

Yeah, at this point in the series (and I'm sure it will get worse) I'm thinking that almost all high school students--but especially guys--are horrible. I want to believe that this is fiction and that really most high schoolers are good kids, but after reading all the real news stories of sexual assault and cyberbullying in the last few years, the story presented in this series is all too believable. Me, too, especially since my experience as parent of a moody high schooler is more recent than my experience of being one. I often get annoyed at Clay's mom for being so intrusive, which I'm sure makes him even less likely to tell her anything, but I also understand that this intrusiveness comes our of her love and concern.

sistermagpie, great post as usual! I'm not quoting the whole thing (because of the length), but the quoted point is interesting because it illustrates another way that the time period is so important to the overall plot of the series. Similar to the lack of cellphones and the computerized data on a large scale, the lack of expectation for close parental supervision helps allow P&E to get away with their secret lives. Yet things would be very different just a few years later--my daughter was born in 1983, just in time for the beginning of the helicopter parenting era (caused in part by the media coverage of kidnapped and murdered children). We moved to the DC suburbs (in Maryland, not Virginia, but they are very similar) in 1988 when our daughter was 5, and every aspect of her life was closely supervised--no free play outside of our yard when she was little, and no going over to friends' houses without parental permission and coordination until mid-teens (when the kids began to drive). Any parent who did not provide this level of supervision, at least among the middle-class or upper-middle-class neighborhoods like the one P&E live in, might be viewed with suspicion by other parents and possibly by the authorities. Some of you may have read about the parents from this area that got in trouble for letting their kids walk alone--although this happened in the last couple of years, I think the attitudes and debate about the issue would have been similar in the late 1980s: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/01/15/parents-investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/21795863/

It was definitely Katy Perry: Thanks for the link! But to my old ears it does sound a lot like Taylor Swift's style, especially the beginning.

Yes! I kept saying this throughout the episode--couldn't believe how everyone left their blinds/curtains open at night with interior lights on. Of course, it is necessary for the plot, but it was still distracting. Agree on the praise for the adult actors, but I'm having a hard time not seeing the principal as Vaughn Du Clark--he made quite the impression in that role!

So glad this show is really back--not just first episode "setting things up" back. I absolutely loved the combination of humor (especially Major on teen brain), emotion, and mystery and can't wait to rewatch to catch all the little things that fly by. My only small complaint is that it wasn't clear how Liv reflected the bank manager brain, aside from the dad-like admonitions to Major; for example, where did Liv's sudden mechanical aptitude come from? Maybe something was said about the dad having that skill in an earlier scene, but I don't remember. Never thought of Blaine, but it makes sense that he would want the ability to turn people into zombies. If you are referring to the song Major was singing, wasn't that Taylor Swift? But don't trust my musical knowledge--I am in my 60s, though I do still like a lot of today's music.

Its Gus, and I think it is likely that it is Gus because Gus wants to extract his own revenge on Hector, after extracting as much profit as possible. If you aren't familiar with the Breaking Bad universe, of course, you dont know this. I did think of Gus, though I don't remember the details of why he wanted revenge on Hector. I just didn't think Gus was part of the story yet, considering the BB vs. BCS timeline. Hopefully this will become clearer in the next episode(s).

After rewatching most of season 2 and then this episode, I've concluded that Chuck really is the "bad" brother. Jimmy may do some bad things, but he is fundamentally a good person and loyal to those he cares about (especially Chuck), even at the risk of hurting himself (such as when he ran over to the copy shop after Chuck fell). When Jimmy transposed the numbers in the file, I think he was focusing on reversing the wrong done to Kim and did not realize how extreme an effect the consequences would have for Chuck.

I got that, but I'm still confused about how they tracked him to the shooting site in the hills/desert. I thought that the car he took apart at the junkyard was one he picked up just for the shooting (in the same way he apparently got a different junker car for the truck driver trap with the spiked hose). How would his watcher(s) have gotten a tracker on something that was not his regular car? I also first thought, as suggested by Shapeshifter upthread, that Nacho left the "Don't do it" note. But my husband said that wasn't possible because Mike would have seen him come out of the shack and head up toward where Mike was. There wasn't enough time for Nacho to get up there, put the branch in the horn, and get back down to the shack without Hector noticing. Finally, who would want to warn Mike off of killing Hector? It almost seems like someone trying to protect Mike rather than someone caring about what happens to Hector (because if it was an ally of Hector, why not just kill Mike?), but I can't think of anyone other than Jimmy that would fit that description. My husband thought it might be the Philly cops tracking him, but I don't remember enough about that story to know if that is possible or makes sense. Oops, I was typing while Ghoulina posted this--much more clearly stated than what I said.

One thing that's not clear (well, one of many) is where Clay is in the chain of people who are meant to listen to the tapes. Obviously at least a few other people (Tony, Jessica, Alex, maybe Justin and one or more of his friends) have already heard them. Since the show is focusing on Clay, is he the last one who needs to hear them? I'm not sure if the order of who listens matters, but it doesn't seem like Hannah intended it to be random.