Margherita Erdman

That observation is dead-on. You win for BEST QUESTION. Glad to get here and learn from everyone's posts that I had not been so distracted by all the shiny bouncy hair in this bonkers show to miss being informed earlier of Liam & Alex's actual hook-up. Ewww. He may not be her actual dad, but this seems like a retcon as their relationship has always played paternal (within the limited acting range available to Chopra especially). Awesome detail though, in that scene in Liam's office — check out the diploma on his wall — apparently Agent Cougartown graduated from the Universisty of Kentucky. So now we know how all the people writing and running and overseeing set design for this show got their smartses — they went to universisties.

I was just coming here to post this, PAB! I found it interesting that while they said the charter school storyline came out of their own experiences and frustrations with the school options in Eagle Rock, they specifically did not mean to endorse charter schools or this fictional charter school. Instead, their intention was to make the character of David and his passion compelling enough to draw Michelle in and involve her in the project — near the end of the interview they are very clear that the charter school is meant as a reflection of and a foil for Michelle's character, good and bad. For me at least, this makes the arc more organic to the show and less grating as a commercial for charter schools, especially with the introduction of the Anna character, who emphasizes further how easily Michelle is influenced by stronger personalities than her own. I did find it notable that even though both brothers acknowledged their personal investment in issues of school quality and choice in Los Angeles and Eagle Rock specifically, neither one disclosed what their decisions ultimately were with regard to where they sent their children. Not that it's any of our business, really, but still. They seem to want to portray the story without engaging the politics, which is a teensy bit disingenuous IMO.

No kidding! And

EB, I have nothing to add to these right now, but I just want to thank you for doing such a good job of curating these each week as I get a good laugh out of the content in your posts all over again, and they remind me how even the not-so-top-notch episodes have some really crackling, well-delivered dialogue and humor.

I was a juror in a murder trial in 1993, not sequestered, and lasting "only" about a month, but it was a particularly vicious rape-murder case with a young white woman victim and an African-American defendant, so major racial overtones (I lived in Washington DC at the time, a racially divided city for sure), the prosecutors were throwing everything they had at it, and there was a good amount of local media coverage (which we were instructed to ignore, though I was taking the subway home from the courthouse one night and had to listen to a couple of idiots go on and on about the n-- rapist on trial and how DC ought to have the death penalty). Our jury demographics were 6-6 black-white, and we jurors were absolutely traumatized afterward, from both the trial presentation and the deliberations. That experience definitely gave me a different perspective on the OJ trial than I would have had otherwise. Not that I wasn't still horrified at the OJ verdict, but I found this episode fascinating and deep, and I was grateful that this part of the story was included. Bailey may have been accurate legally about marital rape law in California, but (IMO, keeping in mind rules of the road here at PTV) that didn't mean there was "nothing wrong" with the law or Bailey's comment. It is (again IMO) shameful that rape within marriage didn't exist for legal purposes in the U.S. until feminist activists began making marital rape laws a priority in the 1970s. Saying "I do" at the altar, until those laws were passed, state by state, allowed for implied consent even in cases of documented domestic violence and injury. So I thought the exchange between F. Lee Bailey and Marcia Clark was totally plausible and appropriate (especially given OJ's reported sexual violence toward Nicole) — I would love to know if that conversation in chambers or something like it actually happened. I also think that it would be splitting an awfully fine hair to say that the juror was truthful on her questionnaire about never having been a victim of domestic violence because she dropped the charges (on the choking) and because forced sex by one spouse upon another wasn't technically a crime at the time. LA County Sheriff's deputies put in their first few years of duty and training at the LA County Jail, and it looked to me like most of them couldn't distinguish this duty from jail duty.

I'm pretty sure Donnie was already terminally ill (remember the nightstand full of pill bottles that he quickly swept into a drawer during the FBI raid?) which is why he agreed to be the one to set up the long con for Axe — Axe probably promised to take good care of his family. It would account for Donnie's overall "spiritual crisis" too. My guess also is that the Donnie thing was dangled starting with the initial trades that got him caught (remember how unusual the AG & FBI folks said it was for him to be making a big play of any kind?).

This episode was everything if only because of the nude bodystockings on Alex and Brett, the didgeridoo, and the gigantic poofy sandworm. I thought the opening credits and scenes were pure comic genius. (or was it a Spice worm? sorry my knowledge of the Dune saga is secondhand and dimly remembered, vague memories via long-ago male friends in high school and college who loved Todd Rundgren and role playing games) I too thought the breakup between Larry & Tina over kids was realistic, sad, and no one's fault (although the condom was a dick move, no pun intended, if that wasn't something he'd been using before). The show has suffered, IMO, from Brett & Michelle's literal separation as characters, since their home and nuclear family were the original hub the show and its relationships spun around. Edited to ask: Are there vegan Hot Pockets?

I don't think it's a tangent, and I'm glad you've kept bringing it up, because I think it is key to Michelle's character arc and the worldview of the show. Is she really so naïve about her white privilege, while wearing her social work credentials and desire for a "community-based school" like badges of honor, that she thinks it is OK to dismiss the neighborhood schools out of hand? I confess I don't know Eagle Rock, but I do know that there are many good and innovative neighborhood schools throughout LAUSD, especially at the elementary level, and many of them have become that way through organized parent involvement combined with special funding available BECAUSE the student population maintains a certain threshold of low-income families and English learners. Diversity in these schools truly = strength, as parents with experience in how to work a legalistic, bureaucratic government system can help leverage funding that wouldn't be available without the families who may be less equipped to advocate due to barriers of language, time, or work schedules — which creates an opportunity for a parent community that forms out of authentic relationships. Thank you also for posting the link in the Media thread to the Salon article that takes down this aspect of the show and this plot line. Charter schools, especially in Los Angeles — when they are not scams run by sleazy operators who get in and out within a year or two with a few hundred thousand dollars never to be seen again — are almost always about exclusion, about working the system to have the exclusivity of a private school for the bargain price of public education. A particularly distasteful innovation of the past few years has been the "neighborhood charter" — generally created in affluent neighborhoods so the neighborhood school can go independent and have parents take over governance, but still limit enrollment almost exclusively to neighborhood children, with just a token few openings each year available by lottery. Which begs the question, where is she going to preschool? A public pre-K or TK? Montessori? Is it nearby in Eagle Rock or further away? Sophie seems to be thriving in whatever the environment she's in, so you'd think this would inform the discussion in the household. Also begging the question, where are all of Michelle's mommy friends? Granted, some of us are more social than others, but by the time your kid is chatty and in pre-K, you have a list of acquaintances at least for play dates, and if you're lucky, a good friend or two among the bunch. Edited to clarify that I don't think that ALL charter schools are terrible, not in LA or anywhere else — in fact I know there are some amazing innovative models out there that wouldn't exist except through charters — just that the concept is inherently flawed due to the zero-sum funding mechanism and huuuge incentives for abuse combined with minimal oversight. And it eliminates useful internal pressure for reform within the system because all the innovation now IS going the charter route because it's so much simpler.

I think the very obliviousness with which the show so clearly intends the charter school arc to be a redemptive, constructive, pure expression of Michelle's love for her children and her community, in harmony with her social values and desire for public service — well, that makes it political, and I very much share your misgivings and feel it is appropriate to link back to your post in the Media thread (thank you for that too): http://forums.previously.tv/topic/17907-togetherness-in-the-media/#entry952519 I live in L.A., and for better or worse, our family and friends are pretty close demographically to the world of Togetherness (we are a little older and further down the school path). It is a world and a set of choices familiar to us, anyway. I also have worked in local and state politics here long and deep enough to know that school funding is a zero sum game, no getting around it, so get your charter schools at the expense of improving the neighborhood school. And the for-profit (or non-profit-in-name-only) chain charters will suck up every resource, competent teacher, and non-special ed, non-ELL student they can, leaving the neighborhood school to do the best it can to meet the needs of the hardest-to-teach. It is unfortunate because I don't think that Michelle is supposed to be this naïve or unconscious about her white privilege, and it seems inconsistent with Brett's frugal vegan Leaf-driving-ness (that is a Leaf, right?) that he would be so set on private school without even touring the neighborhood kindergarten and charters. How did they pick the pre-K where Sophie attends now?

This *is* fun. Here are my contributions to the list! Charlotte Rampling Judi Dench Juliet Stevenson Vanessa Redgrave Jenny Agutter (think the Jenny Agutter of MI-5/Spooks, not so much the version channeled in Call the Midwife)

I'm about 90% sure that newspaper was Indian, though whether the language was Hindi or Bengali or another language I could not tell you. My 2nd guess in that brief glance was maybe Thai. 100% sure it was not Arabic or Farsi (which is written in the same script). Where is Dexter when you need him? Still chopping down old-growth forest in Oregon while dismembering the occasional miscreant with his chainsaw, no doubt...

That confused me actually, because call me a heartless witch (or just the child of one alcoholic plus one codependent enabler), or both, or maybe they amount to the same thing — but enforcing the pre-nup to divorce when she abandoned her sobriety, and to allow her only visitation with her kids — i.e., protecting Mycroft & Sherlock from the worst of their mother's addiction — seems like the right thing to do. Boarding school, that does seem harsh, unnecessary, and yes, petty, if done in part to punish May/Mary. But Sherlock does seem obsessed with and solely focused on Morland's treatment of his mother — only resenting his early enrollment at boarding school because it meant separation from his mother. He doesn't seem to have wanted any closeness with his father even as a child. I thought it was to protect her memory, not just for the sake of his sons but as a mark of his love for her. Morland isn't an ink-black villain, as we've all agreed.edited for clarity

And yet! Halstead rises to the occasion! His relentlessly abrasive and narcissistic self-righteousness somehow overpowers the offensive stupidity of the anti-vaccination parents who put their children and community at risk. Please, S. Epatha, fire him already, spare yourself future headaches and get him off our screens. No doctor, especially not a resident, would be kept on after openly flouting a DNR — Risk Management and the insurance carrier wouldn't allow it, even if the supervising medical staff were somehow willing to overlook it (not to mention he then violated the confidentiality protocols of a clinical trial! which could get the hospital disqualified from continuing or conducting any future trials — not that a drug company rep could get access to participant records — but still). Also — does anyone see even the slightest hint of a spark between him and Dr. Manning? I thought their kiss was just — icky.

I always found it hugely ironic — in all of the troubling, toxic, and downright surreal crosscurrents of race and gender and class that surfaced to swirl around this case (swirling still, you can see it skimming the forums here) — that Marcia Clark, an educated white woman, was relentlessly, brutally criticized for the way she wore her hair, as if that decision called everything else about her into question — her intelligence, her common sense, her ability to make herself presentable in polite society, her claim to speak for "the people." It's such a perfect, unconscious reflection of the mountains of shit and shame and judgment heaped on women of African descent living in Western culture for having curly, kinky, unruly hair.

You're absolutely right, I forgot about that, wishful thinking I guess. There was that coda with Dar & Quinn's special ops teammates basically telling him that without him, the mission would be a suicide mission for them all so could he please deliver these last letters to their loved ones, and Quinn went out of guilt/loyalty/obligation and because Quinn is Superman, leaving behind a letter for Carrie

Couldn't agree more about Quinn. This show has turned him into a live-action Mr. Bill. It's becoming its own gruesome torture porn arc.I wish there had been some explanation what happened between Carrie & Quinn in the time jump between seasons since it seemed at the end of the previous season, after Carrie's father's funeral, that she & Quinn had agreed to try out a relationship of some kind, baby and all. And as for Allison and her continued bad acts even after being exposed, because dark ops genius superspy Dar Adal responds with a shrug of the shoulders and a single incompetent babysitter — it reminds me of the underrated, canceled-too-soon miniseries/limited series The Assets starring Jodie Whittaker from Broadchurch, about the years-long, frustrating, but ultimately successful counterintelligence operation that identified Aldrich Ames as a double agent working for the Soviets and then the Russians after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The mole hunters were sure it was Ames for quite a while before they could prove it, and it was galling as hell to know he was undermining American interests and endangering the lives of American agents and assets while they worked to build an unassailable paper trail.

I don't think I care enough to go back and re-watch (plus, predatory nympho botoxed bored wifey/detached mom was so repellent I don't ever want to see her again) but I thought he first saw Luisa because she was the nanny for scary nympho's kid, and scary nympho was the fare he was dropping off at her house. In any case, it was a surprise to me that Luisa was the daughter of the Butlers' housekeeper (what is her name anyway? Esmeralda? I can never make it out). You would have thought we'd have seen her around the house before, unless she was raised by relatives in Queens while her mom mothered the odious Butlers and their kin.

No, you're right, it's not new to introduce the idea that Wesen have participated in and influenced specific events and represented individuals in history in ways previously unknown to us (like Hitler being one of those badger-like whatchamahoozy things and possessing the Coins of Charismatic Megalomania, which gave him so much of his power). Nick discovered early on that there is an ancient history and culture of Wesen historical figures, traditions, and organizations that parallel and intersect with human culture and history. We've heard a lot about all of that, and I've enjoyed it a lot, as I said above.But what possibilities, ShadowFacts, and I (and maybe some others I missed) find so objectionable here (and I do hope I'm not misrepresenting or overstating their views, just seems like we're all more or less reacting to the same troubling anomaly that popped up) is the claim Monroe makes in this episode, seemingly out of the blue, that all mass movements in all of history that have turned violent — the French factory labor union conflict and the New York Draft Riots are two examples I remember that Monroe mentioned besides the Boston Tea Party (which as you point out doesn't even fit because hello, not violent), but Monroe's new assertion covers so very many watershed events on every continent, in every era — events that transformed and inspired hearts and minds, not just governments and their policies. Here are some that come to mind which would have entirely different meaning and significance if they were driven by Wesen and hidden Wesen agendas unrelated to those we believed to be true at the time (examples are mostly modern just because those were easiest to think of quickly, and in no particular order): • uprisings against the British Raj in India to demand a greater degree of self-governance if not a return to independence • the many brutally squashed attempt at democratic reforms throughout Europe in the 1800s • the American Revolution (which started as isolated cells of armed protest) • the Bolshevik Revolution • Freedom Riders & Freedom Summer • the Watts riots • Tiananmen Square • years upon years of anti-apartheid activism in South Africa and its pitiless repression • the butchery in Rwanda, Bosnia, Sudan ... even The Rolling Stones at Altamont. [OK, I'll concede the Rolling Stones at Altamont might be a good candidate for Wesen instigation. Hells Angels as rocker ride or die biker Wesen, that would be totally in sync with the Grimm universe.] Next, will the show assert that racist violence has never existed as a human phenomenon but has always been the work of Wesen? The long history of lynchings and the traditions of the Ku Klux Klan, all Wesen deliberately fomenting deep divisions within human communities? Because that's just one of the logical emanations from this generalized "violent grassroots action should always be blamed on Wesen" thing. It is disturbing and offensive, IMO, dismissive of the significance and complex historicity of these events, demonizing Wesen as a whole, and discounting the agency and responsibility of humans for their own worst collective tendencies and actions. OK, I grant you,

I thought it was just because Adalind was fretting that Diana was with the Royals and Trubel knows that Meisner got her away in the helicopter after she magicked the King out the door into the ocean.So Trubel knows, but won't tell Adalind, that Diana is with whomever Meisner now represents — the Resistance? This shadowy new organization? Are they one and the same, do they represent the same or different interests? Will the show ever clear these things up for us? Probably not. Interesting that Renard hasn't shared the news of Diana's escape from the Royals with Adalind, even after Meisner told him. I do wish that Renard's awesome mom would return, since when last we saw her she vowed she wouldn't stop until she found her granddaughter, and she seems more focused, competent, and intelligent than Adalind. Or most others on this show. There's no way this wasn't an intentional gloss on Kristallnacht: brownshirts= blackshirts, targeted destruction of buildings and businesses by gangs of hate-fueled thugs, notably broken windows (in English Kristallnacht is often translated as "The Night of Broken Glass").Possibly the writers/showrunners thought this was an ironic contrast to previous holiday episodes, as it was anything but a Silent Night... I am Jewish, have an interfaith family, and didn't find it offensive, per se, since it wasn't played for laughs or trivialized, but portrayed as a violent and thuggish organized hate crime, supposedly the vanguard of an even more sinister, widespread, well-organized movement — which is true to the historic parallel. I have found that Grimm's allegorical aspects are usually on target, actually, and enjoy the way in which both Wesen-human and intra-Wesen stories will reflect and explore real-world dynamics of bigotry, privilege, cultural misunderstandings, inter-ethnic conflict, and oppression. The false note in this episode that did rankle somewhat for me, actually, was the newly introduced idea that all collective uprisings and riots throughout "human" history have in fact been instigated by Wesen and Wesen grievances. That doesn't jibe with the more interesting and subtle ways in which we have learned about Wesen subtext in various events in history up until now. Both of these things, x1000. The standalone holiday episodes are maybe my very favorite (and if the writers are feeling like the well of western European Christmas tradition has run dry of inspiration, which, what? but okay, why not revisit the Chanukah miracle story, or the creation and celebration of Kwanzaa, or the Eastern Orthodox traditions that continue through Epiphany — which they sort of did with the Greek American Wesen, but that was more about the species of Wesen than the folk traditions of the region, I think — or go completely outside western tradition and branch out to other cultures as they have done quite effectively in the past)?I didn't read the episode synopsis and I don't follow spoiler or speculation threads, so I sat down with some hot chocolate, my husband, and the DVR remote on Friday (with our Chanukah candles still burning) after everyone else was in bed, looking forward to a jolly, jingly, tongue-in-cheek, Monroe-centric romp (to include of course of course a look at his & Rosalee's Fantasy-Perfect Vintage Christmas Decor that you know will have to go into semi-permanent storage as soon as they have a Blutbad-Fuchsbau toddler or two roaming loose in their house). What a buzzkill instead! to have proto-fascist Wesen hooligans enter the scene as yet another shadowy group in the incoherent struggle over unclear stakes with our heroes fighting fights in dimly lit container yards. [What with this show's shipping container fetish, I'm surprised that Nick didn't build himself and Adalind one of those multistory, multi-room modular homes out of converted containers http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/how-to/g172/shipping-container-homes-460309/ ] And Hank & Wu, while they continue to be fabulous and whose actors make the very most out of the very little they are getting in their supporting roles recently, have anchored some of the very best episodes IMO, and they haven't had decent, center-stage storylines in for-EVUH! Not that anyone asked, but I am glad of Juliette's return, though I hope she and Nick don't get back together, and I hope there is no love triangle, quadrangle, pentagram, or even dyad of any kind among any of the existing characters (well, maybe Adalind and Meisner — they really did burn it up chemistry-wise when they were on the lam together while Diana was on her way into the world). It would have been a waste of the setup that Juliette had unfathomable, bottomless ("lit'rally") Hexenbiest powers only to be taken out by a crossbow and disappear never to be seen again. I do agree though that The Wig Police need to get on the case, stat (just be sure to take some powerful backup with you), and that EvilJuliette's sins should relegate her to permanent outsider status from the main group, even when she acts as their ally (as should Adalind's past sins, no matter she voluntarily gave up her Wesenality* and is playing the wounded bird in shapeless colorless mommy clothes right now). * (1) probably I am only amusing myself as I am old and will be the only one who remembers Florence Henderson shilling for Wesson vegetable oil in commercials by singing the jingle "It's got Wessonality" (2) does no one else find it bizarrely out of character for Adalind to be so beatifically content with her new human status, an undoing of the very long and gruesome (but effective & well-acted) arc in which she was willing to do ANYTHING, no matter how horrible, distasteful, or personally uncomfortable to recover her powers? We weren't given to believe that the hexensuppression cocktail that Rosalee prepared was also going to change her personality, so why would she be any more accepting of losing her powers this time? edited to fix quote & tags

Does anyone else remember this? Can't recall whether it was ER or Grey's Anatomy, but I do remember a storyline like that involving sisters — one of them had eaten toxic mushrooms and needed a new liver or she would die, and her younger sister could be a living donor by allowing the surgeons to remove part of her healthy liver for transplant. But there was bitterness between the sisters: the sick one had a history of selfishness and manipulation, and the healthy sister was an elite athlete. The donor surgery would take her out of competition during some crucial period of time (Olympic trials?) just when she had reached her peak physical performance. In the end, the healthy sister refused to help, basically ensuring that her sister would die of liver failure.Also, because it cannot be said enough, Dr. Halstead is insufferable, his hair & makeup seem to indicate that those responsible for styling him and for overseeing color correction in post-production hate him (and/or his character), and the initially likeable Dr. Manning gets less & less so with every minute of screen time she shares with him.

From the recap: The other theme of this episode, then, is that divorcing Noah or Alison improves your life immeasurably. That says it all, doesn't it? RE: this and for everyone else who hates this name (I don't love it either, though I do wonder if the baby's given name is actually Joan — better IMO if still old-fashioned) — Joanie is named for Alison's grandmother Joanie, which makes complete sense for Alison as a character, since her grandparents seem to have been the only people in the world with whom she felt completely loved and safe . ...albeit begging the question why a grown woman would go by a diminutive/childish form of her name throughout adulthood and old age.

Speaking for myself only of course, it's not that I'm "bothered" or personally offended in any way, that would be silly and as you say it's perfectly possible, simple even, when browsing reviews and forums, to skip the opining of showrunners and writers. I don't seek them out or follow any of them on Twitter or FB. But I find it so interesting, in the long tradition of literary and artistic criticism that struggles with the importance or irrelevance of explicit artistic intent vs. the meaning that accrues via audience interpretation and cultural context only — how insistent Treem is that it is all about her vision — with no admission that at some point she, like any artist, cannot claim exclusive insight into what her work means once it is released into the wild. It seems to indicate an extraordinary naïveté & lack of self-awareness on her part, maybe some arrogance too I suppose. So when I comment on my perception of the distance between Treem's comments and what I see in the show, I'm not just whining or venting some kind of personal attack, it's out of fascination as much as frustration. I suspect it is the same for others here. And of course as I think I noted earlier I find the irony delicious that in a show whose guiding conceit is the unreliable narrators and contrasts in the story from one POV to the next, that Treem insists her POV is unassailable.

I can like the episode so much better, and enjoy it more as part of the ongoing narrative, viewed through this lens. It really is too bad that Treem is so attached to her *own* POV that she undermines her own work by insisting on spelling out authorial intent instead of letting it go and accumulate its own layers of interpretation and meaning, independent of what she thought she was doing.

The lack of any reaction to or indication of awareness of the baby or pregnancy in 2/4 POVs — Cole & Helen, the 2 people most likely to be wounded or enraged or baffled (or some messy combination thereof) by it — is *exactly* what makes it so very relevant to this episode. The baby arrives — but who is expecting her and how are they feeling about it?As you point out, the ridiculously overwrought birth sequences were useless to advance anyone's story and felt weirdly generic at the same time. Another missed opportunity IMO — where was the Alison who had decided on her own to keep this baby (something that seemed clear from her announcement at the yoga retreat), the Alison who whether consciously or unconsciously doesn't seem to care who the father is, just that this new child is hers? That Alison might have a mindful, focused reason to choose unmedicated childbirth, might invite Athena to attend and support her, might draw on the clarity and body awareness she seemed to have when she discovered and embraced her pregnancy. We really only saw that at the end when she was bonding with her daughter and was all "Noah who?" I'm pretty sure you're right that it's Joanie, which was her grandmother's name. In the U.S. at least, OB/GYNs *are* obstetric surgeons — only in a really unusual circumstance would any other specialty perform a c-section — and unfortunately U.S. hospitals make the call on c-sections based more on liability concerns than research-proven results. The charitable interpretation of the depiction of Alison's birth experience is that it's her typical poor-me, all-alone, catastrophic POV, I guess.I was also finding it a stretch that a 35-weeker wouldn't require at least some supportive care and/or NICU time at first. I mean, that's not enormously premature, but those last few weeks can be really important for lung development as well as putting on enough body fat to regulate temperature.

I just want to see what Helen thinks/feels about Alison's pregnancy & the new baby. Surely she's known for a long time by now in the story arc — even if she hasn't seen Alison herself and even if Noah has been thoughtless enough not to discuss it with her, the kids know from their visits. Seems like a gaping hole in storytelling to me — a pregnant Alison would be factoring hugely into Helen's struggles to make sense of and make peace with where she is in her life — and I say that as someone who is Helen's age, and even though I have a strong marriage and a kid who is NOT a brat — this is a time when you question your past choices and what lies ahead — it is a time when certain things (like more children, or fewer, or a new career, or a different educational path) aren't possible any longer, and your body is absolutely different from the one you lived in at 25 or 35. So watching your asshole ex make a new life with an amazing new career, a younger woman, and a new baby would be devastating at a whole different level, leaving Helen behind with all the obligations of their former life together, and all the regrets that might go along with that. I know we're seeing some of that, but I feel we're being cheated of her specific reaction to the baby.