sistermagpie

I don't get the impression that a modern girl in that time would be the same in ours, someone who won't take money from her parents. They don't want her walking around looking like a poorer person. This show is definitely cranking up the soapiness this season, but I don't get why JF is so determined to rush through stuff. If we'd gotten to know and like Forte more and depend on him and Ada as a couple his death would be more meaningful without losing any of the short-nature of the marriage. It does make it seem like the reverend is going to leave Ada money, as if most of his purpose was to fill up the coffers after Oscar's mistake. Sort of like a certain short term fiance conveniently saved everything on his other show. JF does not have interest in his rich people being poor. At least George's not firing on the workers was given a ruthless, strategic spin. It was hard to focus on anything in that Bridge meeting besides Bertha's hat. That was a super aggressive hat. Making Oscar put his entire family fortune into this scam is pretty ridiculous. It's one thing for him to get scammed because of his own greed, assumption that a young woman can't be playing him and him being a fortune-hunter himself, but why would he put all of that money in anything, much less a company he didn't check at all? It's pretty funny that he goes all that time giving money to the company and then the whole thing falls apart just because he decided to say hi to his neighbor. Exactly. There's not even any reason to try to look up spoilers on a Julian Fellowes show. In fact, there was a comment on a T&Lo post that summed up the show so beautifully. The person said they spent every episode knowing exactly what was going to happen next while also feeling like they must have missed a scene.

I feel both ways, if that makes sense. I'm Team Larian in that from the first ep I assumed they were endgame, and while I don't care about them as a couple or individually, I seem to vaguely prefer them over the other people they've given for them that I also don't care about. Maybe partly because they're so far away from being a couple that it seems like they might grow into something better so I don't have to like them right now. I can hope for improvement.

I think the signals in this case aren't about her seeming flirtatious but choosing to spend time with him at all, particularly acting as a mother substitute. It's more a societal understanding thing than her ever actually seeming flirtatious at all. None of which makes Dashiel's proposal any less inappropriate and out of the blue. I took that to be about Larry seeing another young person pushed into a romantic situation she didn't want more than him wanting Marian for himself. Or maybe that he resented Dashiell being able to find love again with Marian in ways Mrs. Blaine couldn't with him. In any case, it was about the situation/system more than wanting Marian.

TBF, Larry having to grow up and mature would be an obvious storyline for him if they wanted them to be endgame, and him losing a childish love and trying out being a wastrel drunkard would be some obvious, if cliche, first steps.

I love how this is exactly the sort of thing they'd just demonstrate with Monica and Chandler. Like when Monica doesn't like the person Chandler is with his boss, laughing at his dumb jokes, but when she's with him she realizes oh no, he has to do that and I need to support him. Rachel or Ross in that situation would have continued judging the other person for not pissing off their boss to retain the other's admiration.

Yes, I think if you step back and think about it, her behavior isn't that unreasonable. She hasn't completely missed that he's thinking along those lines and so is Agnes. She knows he would be a good match, but she's not sure how she feels about actually marrying the guy since she doesn't feel anything special for him. So she's maybe just seeing how she feels in the moment of truth when he openly makes a move. She had no idea that first move would be a public proposal where he says things that he should have said to her IN PRIVATE.

The public proposal seems set up to be tasteless for modern viewers and people of the time for different reasons. Modern viewers don't like it because it puts the woman in a position of not wanting to ruin everyone's moment, especially is. What seems off for somebody at the time is him making this big public display of announcing his love and getting on one knee in the grass in front of high society. Why on earth would he want to do that? Even if he isn't trying to pressure her because he thinks he's a good catch and that she's been accepting his courting? Without ever saying anything to her in private that wasn't at least slightly coded?

The thing is, all this is very much true, which is why it's so egregious that they threw in that public proposal! Because I feel like realistically while he might absolutely propose, and absolutely would say "you're not a real teacher" as a compliment and reminder that she doesn't have to follow any orders, he'd totally just propose to her privately with every expectation that she'd be thrilled to accept. That makes it almost weirder that JF set it up in such a way to pressure her, because he would probably consider that as awful as we do!

I don't even think she was thinking about being her mother at that moment, just that as much as she'd hate to humiliate Dashiell himself in front of everyone, she couldn't bear to say no to his daughter, who he'd inappropriately had present. That's the problem. They both win. That means neither of them wins.

Did he explain why?

But what's sophisticated? If you're cold, it doesn't take much imagination to layer clothing or tie/stuff things around yourself or cut and wrap warmer sweaters around yourself, especially when you've got very little else to do. As athletes they would have layers to put on to be warm when not playing, and any teenager would want to take a cool fur or leather jacket they were fond of for 40/50 degrees. Nobody has anything that's made for freezing temperatures. (In fact, Nat and Travis hilariously trudge through deep snow, sinking on every step, when there's a pair of snowshoes on the porch!) The most sophisticated outfits they have are in the pilot in the flashforward, where they're also making decoration for themselves, but we see how naturally that comes to them in Doomcoming.

Where are you seeing a lot of coats and cold weather gear? Some people have jackets that would be fashionable and make sense for teenagers to bring to Seattle in May--like Lottie's rabbit fur jacket--and I think that one plaid coat was in the cabin, but that's about it. Same for some girls bringing 90s-style trend heavy boots. Otherwise they're layering things, sometimes with torn up magazines etc. and started cleaning furs in S1.

Plus the odd dynamic of both of them being widows, but one had a long and unhappy marriage she didn't want and the other had a short, happy one she did want. Agnes would be poor in more ways than one.

Good point! In my case I was just thinking of Mr. Rakes who was obviously going to dump her for somebody better connected, yet Marion kept taking risks with him because even though she didn't seem to be in love with him, she gave in to all of his arguments. And then there was Dashiell who was planning on marrying her while Marion was blissfully unaware his mind was in that neighborhood. Larry doesn't seem like he's going to spring anything on her like that. That said, your point is also true. Neither Marion or Larry seem like they're prepared to maneuver in society. They both just want to do what they want to do--and they would probably both support each other in their passions.

Yes, that's what I was going to say too. Bertha really hasn't had anything personal against Turner. She was shocked and horrified when Turner showed up as Mrs. Winterton, of course, but part of that was not knowing what to do since she doesn't just know this woman was a maid, she was *her* maid. But she decided to just not say anything. Turnerton holds it against her that she told everyone she had a sketchy past, but she didn't even do that. She even openly said she wasn't going to out her and Turnerton's response was to mock her by saying she slept with her husband! I think in some ways Bertha can't hate Turner that much even in this incarnation because she's simply not of the elite so she doesn't have enough strong feelings about her. She gets angry at her when she's attacking her, but she'd feel that about just about anybody.

Yes, he's clearly just entitled and it hasn't occurred to him he's overlooking anything. He doesn't think "you're not a real teacher" is an insult. He probably thinks it's a compliment. She's not some silly working girl who has a boss. She's a lady doing them a favor and showing how generous she is by helping them. Likewise he'd probably surprised if someone told him she's never shown romantic interest in him because first, look what she's been doing, and second...why wouldn't she? I thought the same thing. I just don't believe anyone in that crowd wouldn't have been repulsed by that. Why would they want to watch some guy get up and start making a speech about his private lovey-dovey romantic feelings, much less get down on one knee in the grass in front of them. They wouldn't want to be dragged into what should be a private, frank undignified moment. At least, that's what I thought about it.

Perfect for Marion. She needs somebody who isn't going to be making schemes for himself without caring about her, schemes that are obvious to everyone but her.

Right, but I'm saying it's not surprising that this is JF's design. He shows George being ruthless when dealing with other rich guys who try to cross him, and not feeling guilty for a suicide he didn't predict and didn't choose. But as a Good Paternal Elite, he sees the lower classes as more innocent.

I don't remember the details now, but wasn't he pretty chill about driving a rich man to suicide in S1? But when it comes to workers he gets softer. I think it's because JF honestly thinks of the true upper classes he writes about as feeling paternalistic and so protective of the people beneath them, so they always act like good mommy or daddy to their servants/non-white people.

So silly, though, the more you think about it, since this is about invention. It's the last area where you'd require people to already be attached to professional production of the product since it might not exist yet.

OMG, yes. His ordering the men to stand down wasn't strategic, it was that of course he had to be too noble to do anything really bad to people. Because he hasn't been hurting these people from a distance all this time at all! Yes, where the social issues of the white people are presented in ways where we're personally invested, with Peggy it's just an abstract thing where she's Donig What's Right. So somehow things that are far far more important (like Civil Rights) are far less important than who gets the central box at the opera. Which is one thing when all the characters live in the white bubble, but Peggy's a main character! Yes, you'd think she'd understand the ideas both father and daughter were getting here given that she actually lives in this society. That said, those two don't seem to be just confused by her mixed signals since they only see what they want to see. Add me to the list of people who was at first shocked when Ada said she "contributed" to the good reverend's bad back! Thank you! I know nothing about any of this, but it seemed completely impossible that Trotter would have to be part of any guild to get a patent on anything. There's a long history of outsiders being the ones to crack something the alleged experts can't, especially in the US. (Einstein worked in a patent office, didn't he?) It's not Rennaissance Italy.

Gladys didn't need all of those tools, though. Bertha was a middle class woman with ambitions to break into a society that didn't want her. Gladys was raised in luxury. Bertha probably does think she's giving Gladys the tools she needs for this world--she's always explicitly telling her exactly why she's doing what she's doing and why it's important to do it. But Gladys doesn't have the same obsession with being at the top of society because she's never been outside it.

Yes, a mom for his daughter--and a wife for him, which he also needs. He's basically said that. He's got a vacancy in his house and she's a good fit for it, so he's hired her assuming she's applying for the job.

I knew I was reacting the same way as the entire audience to that backache. It's never a backache and if he's not a villain, he's a goner. Backache=cancer, nosebleed=leukemia and nausea/faintness=pregnancy. I can't really blame her. That trick still gets used today. The guy is an asshole. She didn't even want to go to the party and he ambushes her to shame her into marrying him, proposing in front of a crowd full of people she knows. She's going to dump him because Ada's going to tell her how important it is to marry for love, even if it's just for a little while. ::sniff:: Annnnd Ada wrests the Edith title back from Peggy again!

I think you answered your own question. Having a mother that directed and easily dominating created a passive daughter who gave up trying to fight long ago. She hated Bertha before anybody scorned her, though.