squidprincess

I have no idea why you would decide that Sara as Captain would seal Rip's fate when that was planned since they knew he was going to be gone for Broadchurch. If they were planning to ditch Rip that long ago, why even bring him back? He'd gotten a fairly nice self-sacrificing exit. First, you're assuming that Sara stays Captain, which is not remotely guaranteed. Then you're assuming that Rip has no storyline possibility if she does, which is completely untrue. He's completely wrapped up in the metaplot. He's the character with a past that involves both the Spear of Destiny, the JSA, and Eobard Thawne. They've given him a substantial amount of new angst to work through with his villain plot. There are a number of directions this can go in: is he more driven? Does he want revenge? Does this destroy his confidence? Is it setting up a romance? And when we contemplate next season: well, we don't know what the metaplot will be obviously. But there's always going to be room for an experienced time traveler who can arguably have past connections to any character in the universe that they want. Rip knows the JSA. He knows Jonah Hex. He knows future Barry Allen. Maybe they want him to know J'onn J'onnz next season. No other character on the show has as much open potential when it comes to establishing connections and metaplot. (And besides, my guess is that if Berlanti's Booster Gold movie actually happens, and Legends is still on the air, they're not going to be able to resist bringing a version of the character in. And that would be kind of silly if they've already written out his son. :-P) - I have to admit, I'm still leaning toward Stein. Victor Garber has always seemed a bit unhappy on the show to me. And it would fit with both the spoilers that we'll see Ronnie Raymond again on the Flash (Martin could always merge with Ronnie, he wouldn't need to remain with Jax), and the way Jax's role as mechanic and command-rank crewman have been emphasized lately. They seem to be putting a lot of effort in establishing Jax's role beyond Firestorm, which would make a lot of sense if Firestorm is not in the picture anymore.

Ooo. I hope Rip is actually IN this one. :-) That was the biggest disappointment of the season 2 episode for me.

I think you're going to make yourself miserable if you keep trying to read into this kind of thing. It could just mean that those are the characters involved in the scene that was being filmed. I remember hearing that Snart will be in an episode or two of the Flash toward the end of the season (presumably after Legends concludes). I wonder if that will be the real Snart, and thus a clue for how Legends will end, or if it will just be a flashback, hologram, or hallucination again.

They cut Legion scenes? Aw. Have you any more details?

That's not what I mean. This is a comic book show, primarily, and in season one, they'd proven willing to do things like use causal loops to interesting effect. Heck, there was an entire episode where the team kidnapped themselves as babies. Or Rip's fairly dark story about his repeated attempts to save his family And if you look at a lot of the source comics? That's the tip of the iceberg when it comes to stupid time travel possibilities. This show doesn't even try for the level of plausibility of Moffat's Doctor Who when it comes to nonsensical time travel shenanigans, so there are a lot of possibilities. It basically just amounts to whatever the writers think would be cool this week. But they're going to need a character who can spill out some kind of vaguely plausible sounding explanation at some point. And given that Darvill's had a lot of practice selling this crap, AND everything sounds a little more believable in a British accent, I don't think they'll ever run out of uses for him, even if doesn't reclaim his Captaincy.

I doubt they'll remove him from the leadership entirely, because of his role as the only person who knows what's going on the metaplot. But even if they did. Rip is the ACTUAL Time Traveler. He's the one with the education and experience. The Legends survived without him, sure, but in the process they killed historical figures too early, got manipulated by bad guys and so on. And really, they've just been lucky they haven't had to go up against a John Valor or similar Time Pirate. Sara's a good Captain, but I really doubt her combat flight skills when it comes to the Waverider itself. Jax also hasn't had to deal with any sort of Star Trek/Space Opera "we might all die" technical disaster either. At some point, the show is going to want to do more complex aberrations, which would likely require Rip's specialized knowledge. They may want to bring in Time Pirates, remnant Time Masters, the Thanagarians, and so on. Rip will always be useful for that kind of thing, regardless of who's actually leading the team. And let's be honest, for two out of two seasons, Rip's carried the bulk of the story metaplot. It was his quest against Savage in season one. Now it's his role as the man who found/broke the Spear of Destiny in season two. The man has at least a decade, if not more, of prior Time Master experience to exploit for years of future metaplot. Rip's been DC's Time Travel dude for fifty-seven years. This is a Time Travel show. They will always find a way to use him. ETA: thanks for the screen shots. I'm a little perplexed by Amaya and Nate's continued poor choice of location when it comes to this kind of thing, but the rest have made me enthusiastic. :-)

Honestly, Rip is the one character, above any other, that I think is absolutely safe. (Barring Darvill being unhappy.) I mean, if they wanted to write him out, they had an opening at the beginning of the season. Instead, they bent over backward to accommodate his shooting schedule, made sure that Rip as a character was mentioned in almost every episode that he was gone (contrast that with Snart, who has only come up during Mick's story arc), and delayed the metaplot until he returned. He's also had probably the single heaviest focus in the four episodes since he's returned. (Ray, arguably, had more in Camelot. But he had comparatively small roles in Raiders, Legion, and Turncoat...pun unintended.) And the kind of focus he's been given is a true actor's showcase. We've seen the interviews. They felt like they wasted Darvill's comedic talents, so they gave us Phil for two episodes. Then he gets two more episodes to play a scary villain. Next episode, we're getting a mindscape. I've certainly been wrong before, but I don't think a show would be showcasing an actor to this extent if they're intending to write him out.

I think I'd be sorry to see any character leave. Even Nate, I think, has potential. Especially if he keeps the characterization that he had in this last episode. The truth is that on this show, we have a lot of redundant attributes. Martin and Ray are both genius inventors with a lot of skill with advanced technology. Mick and Firestorm both use fire heavily in combat. Jax and Rip both have technical knowledge about how the ship works and can be repaired. Sara and Amaya are both strong physical fighters. Rip and Nate both have historical knowledge. Nate and Ray have similar temperaments. I think Rip's knowledge about the technical aspects of time travel is the only trait that can't be duplicated by the other characters somehow, and even then, that's only as relevant as the writers choose. (I personally think an entire season of the team stumbling about history like a fun but chaotic bull in a china shop would get a little old, but YMMV.) So really, the show/the crew probably doesn't need any of these characters specifically. But it's the voices and personalities and the way they bounce off of each other that makes them interesting. That said, I do think Arthur Darvill is probably safe because, while the show did work without him in the short term, the fact is that as soon as they want to do any plot with time travel a bit more complex than just "the team goes to X and everything goes to hell in a handbasket", they'll need a character who can technobabble a reasonable sounding explanation. :-)

Honestly, this group barely follows orders as it is. Sara has a bit more control than Rip, but they still have a habit of going rogue. I don't really think conflicting orders will be that much of a problem. There are many situations in the real world where multiple bosses work fine. It just requires communication and a mostly United front. Other characters on this team might not be able to do that, but Rip and Sara generally have been able to in the past. In this case, their talents are so compatible, that we will probably just have a straight line division of labor. And whoever has the final call is the one whose expertise is most applicable to the mission. ( i.e. a ship to ship battle would be his, a ground fight, hers. The general plan to address an aberration, probably his - with notes about what needs to stay intact for the timeline. Rescue missions, and retrievals, hers. And so on.) It wouldn't work with all characters, but for Rip and Sara, it probably could. Assuming the writers want to go that direction.

Oh, that's interesting. I wonder why they would so clearly attribute it to her, then. Do you have more information about it?

They literally rewrote his brain. We watched them do it. I don't think you can get more "clear-cut mind control" than that. Obviously, it's not direct domination. Rip seems to have some wiggle room in how he interprets orders (he was actually ordered to kill the entire team. Instead, he tries to win Jax to his side. And while he did kill Mid-Nite, it looked like he was trying to deceive him first) but we also know that Rip basically electrocuted his own brain to hide the spear from them, and we saw him tortured, and then we saw Eobard literally change who Rip was. Yes, it's very likely that a non-brainwashed person could make the same decisions. But Rip would not. He couldn't even kill Vandal Savage in Egypt after the man killed his family. He couldn't kill Per Degaton either, even if it meant that his family would be saved. He is absolutely not the man we see in Turncoat and Camelot. There isn't even a question here. - I was thinking though that Caity Lotz doesn't say anything about brainwashing in that quote. And she doesn't mention Rip killing her or Mid-Nite. She says that Rip has done "a lot of things" to Sara that she didn't like. That sounds, to me, like a much older issue at work. And it makes sense. Rip has a very nasty habit of keeping secrets from the team. And this Spear of Destiny stuff is more of that. I think that if there is lasting tension, and any residual feelings of distrust, it's going to be about this. It would be unfair and hypocritical for the team to blame Rip for the brainwashing, but this is something that Rip has actually done and is doing. And it is completely fair and understandable for the crew to not be okay with it.

Yeah, I can't see Sara holding a grudge once she knows what really happened. She has been there after all. And Sara isn't one for victim-blaming. Nor is she a hypocrite.

I've been thinking: the "tension" could be an even simpler idea. I think every character (old guard at least) basically assumed Rip would take the chair back when they found him, Sara included. So what if that happens, but due to everything that's just happened (because between the time drive, Phil, and this mess, he hasn't had time to so much as break down), he can't keep it together. Makes a few bad calls. The tension could be Sara noticing that and then Rip deciding/realizing that he needs time to recover before he can even think about reclaiming his seat. It would be a way to keep the idea of tension without an uncharacteristic power struggle.

The thing is: every other character, if they are unhappy with the team, leadership or mission, can quit. They have somewhere, some when to go. None of them are all that invested in the save the timeline quest to begin with, or have any real personal stake in its success. What does Rip have? You put quotation marks around home, but the Waverider is literally all he has. He's been a Time Master since he was ten years old. Vanishing Point is destroyed, and Whitechapel is literal rubble. Where exactly does he go, if HE is unhappy? He has lived on that ship for 13 years. Everything he owns is on that ship. And it's worth noting that he owns basically everything that they make free use of for their missions. But of course, if the team forces him out as leader, then he gets to stay on board his own ship and take part in missions. How generous.

There are some differences between Rip and Mick's situations, though. Mick had betrayed the team before becoming Chronos. Rip was so loyal to the team, that he even put himself in danger when he was completely amnesiac to try to save them. And honestly, there was no "earning his place" back. As soon as Mick showed that he was in control of himself, he was immediately part of the team again. Once he was in control of himself (after the fight with Snart in Progeny), he was immediately taking part in a discussion with Rip about null zones, and going out with the team at Salvation. And we know how soon that was, because Snart was still bruised up from the fight There was no indication of any distrust after that point. It seems weird that the team would treat Rip differently. Especially since at least some of them will actually be inside of his mind, and thus, more likely to understand exactly what was done to him.

I'd imagine the Jax thing will get cleared up when he goes into Rip's head, per next week's synopsis. But I think it'd be kind of awful if the crew actually voted to take the Waverider away from Rip, even if they do think Sara's the better leader. That's not just his ship, it's his home, and it's all he has. Everyone else has their homes and families to return to, he really doesn't. And it's kind of a horrifying thought that the crew would decide to take it from him because he happened to be first lost and then violated by their enemies. If Sara does stay in command, I hope it's because Rip chooses to abdicate or share it with her. Otherwise that would be a very dark, depressing message.

I understand your frustration. This is not a comparable situation, though. There are plausible reasons for Sara OR Rip to stay in command of the Waverider crew, which have nothing to do with general gender dynamics. Honestly, given their respective temperaments and mutual respect, I think this "tension" will be either be Sara wanting Rip to take back over and him refusing, or both of them instinctively giving conflicting orders because they're so used to commanding, and then realizing they have to find a rhythm. Really, I'm just glad they aren't trying to ignore that Sara has been the leader for so long, OR that Rip is the original Captain. It wouldn't feel right to me if they named either one as Captain, without some sort of acknowledgment and respect for the other.

Yes. I think that's my point. She's his AI, and it's his ship. He's under no obligation to give command codes to anyone else.

It was his ship for thirteen years, even before he "stole" it. This isn't exactly a Doctor and TARDIS thing. And well, barring a twist, Gideon seems to have made her allegiance pretty clear. And he actually managed to plan missions and lead a team for the entire first season. It's hard to compare success rates for the two seasons, since the missions are so different. But except for Savage's escapes, I think season one actually had a fairly decent success rate. They always managed to dismantle his schemes in the end. And generally did well in the other stand alone adventures, except the Per Degaton mess and the Time Master betrayal in River of Time. The catch with Sara remaining (sole) Captain is that she really doesn't have a huge amount of investment in the overall quest. She was leading the "preserve the timeline" quest because Rip entrusted it to the team. She wants to kill Darhk, but that's not really any different than Amaya wanting to arrest Eobard. Rip's the one who asked everyone to come along. He's the ex-Time Master who actually cares about the timeline for the timeline's sake. And he's the one who apparently was involved in breaking the spear to begin with. But really, "tension" is hardly the same as an actual power struggle. They're probably just going to have to find their balance. Rip's leadership style in season one always relied heavily on input from Sara, Martin, and the others. I doubt he'd be expecting her to just step back and say nothing. And Sara is used to commanding the team now, but she's never really seen it as a permanent permission, nor I think would she expect him to stay quiet when he's the one who knows what's going on and knows the principle parties. Both characters are competent, decisive and work together well. They've just both been used to being the voice in charge. They just have to figure out the right rhythm.

Well, it IS his ship. And he's the only one who really knows anything about the Spear, what it can do, and why the villains want it. But I still bet they go with a co-captaincy. They have built up Sara's role nicely, and both characters have very compatible talents. (I would laugh if the tension ended up being because neither of them wanted to keep the role.)

I think that they do, intellectually, realize that something happened to change Rip. But it's hard right now, because there are a lot of conflicting emotions. They know the Legion must have done something, but they don't know what, so it's harder to understand. According to the synopsis for next episode: So it's likely that the characters will have a better idea what actually happened. I do think though that in the end, the season 1 characters will get there. They remember Chronos, and they'd traveled with Rip through hell and back for about a year. None of them had to come along with him again after the Savage quest was over after all. They just need to know the explanation. But it might be interesting with Nate and Amaya, because they don't know Rip at all. Amaya only knows him as a man who has killed her friend. This will be harder to get past. I think Rip's likely always going to be a polarizing character by nature. But this does seem like a particularly nasty sort of "break the haughty" plot to borrow from tv tropes. I suspect once the smoke clears, we'll get a Rip that's a little less aloof and a little more integrated into the group itself.

The team doesn't know the details of the brainwashing yet. And he did see Rip murder Sara. (Amaya likewise just found out her friend was murdered.) So he is scared and angry. He will probably feel guilty about it once he knows more details. Right now, it's understandable.

To be fair, Rip didn't "leave", he was missing in action, as far as they knew. And while he entrusted the Waverider to them, there's no real indication that he left them any command override codes that would be able to remove his access even once they knew he'd changed sides. But that said, why on Earth did they leave him alone in there? Why not keep him sedated in the infirmary? Or at least have someone watching him? They know how tricky he can be. Instead, everyone's off doing their own thing and keeping their very competent, dangerous prisoner locked in the brig of his own ship.

Her confidence had been shaken. She'd gotten Jax to let Rip go last episode, and now she's seen what Rip's been doing. We know he's a victim here, but she doesn't know the details, so Amaya's complaint about sentimentality had hit hard. Fortunately, she came around in the end.

The episode was pretty fun, and to my surprise, I really liked Nate in it. He actually felt like a real historian AND like he actually cared about Ray. But god, that ending. Gideon has always loved Rip best, but this is not what the real Rip would want, and I find it strangely heartwrenching.