stagmania

About the only way one can read their relationship this way is to ignore the vast majority of what has happened between them and the very explicit plot lines that have been about Elizabeth's evolving emotional connection to Phillip. It really doesn't make sense. It's also not lost on me that Phillip is the one who snapped a guy's spine in two this episode, and yet the vast majority of conversation has been about Elizabeth's morality or lack thereof. I've always thought it was such a smart choice to flip the expected gender dynamic in this relationship, but it seems to have resulted in a female character being judged far more harshly than I believe her male counterpart would be if their respective roles had followed more traditional emotional profiles.

Am I the only one who thought that Elizabeth was comforting Phillip in that hotel scene, not manipulating him? I don't really understand the need to read dastardly intentions into every single thing she does. She loves Phillip. He was troubled, and she had no reassurances to offer. So she did a totally normal thing that happens in all relationships and tried to distract him from his troubles with a little romance. I thought it was a nice scene. As a few others have mentioned (I had all your lovely posts quoted and then lost them, dammit), Elizabeth absolutely has real feelings and cares deeply about her family and her cause. I've never believed that Elizabeth is sociopathic, and I don't think what we've seen on the show really supports that idea. She had a whole arc last season where she was struggling to deal with her emotions and creeping doubts. Her cause, while hard for many of us to understand or support, means a great deal to her and inspires real feeling. That makes her sympathetic to me, even if I do sometimes get frustrated that she doesn't question things as much as Phillip does. Really intrigued by @sistermagpie's idea about what Mischa's appearance could bring out in her (which I agree is a more interesting question than what it would inspire in Phillip). On the issue of the realism of this pests plot, did everyone see this article today about the real life inspiration?

I'd just like to state for the record that I really resent this show moving to Tuesday nights, thus making it nearly impossible for me to watch in a timely manner. And with that, I'm off to catch up on four pages of comments. (Martha!)

Good point. The only reason we know something big is going on is because we're aware we're watching a tv show that is telegraphing an imminent reveal. ;)

I don't get the sense that the other characters really know the scope of what's happening to Amabella. Before this episode with the bite mark, Madeline and Celeste may have viewed what happened on the first day as an isolated incident. Even Jane didn't really know-the teacher said she thought Amabella might still be getting bullied, but she wasn't sure. I still agree with you that they should be more concerned about the kid than their mommy wars, but they don't know as much as we do so it's not quite as egregious as it seems.

I can't see that ending for his show either, and I don't think that's where it's headed. I do think it is entirely in character for Adam to think about wanting her back again now that he knows she's really moving on in a big way, and also that she's potentially in a position to need help and support again. That doesn't mean Hannah wants him back, especially after he's been in a serious relationship with her friend. I didn't see any longing or conflicted feelings from her in that scene on the sidewalk; she seems done with him.

I actually do think people should be capable of empathy for things they haven't directly experienced-but maybe my standards are too high. :)

Oh see now, that's weird. If she's getting coached, I have literally no idea what accent they're trying to pull off. The idea is to have empathy for people even if you haven't personally experienced their situation, and to make an effort to understand their behavior and feelings whether or not you think you would react the same way. I know that for some they're just TV characters, but a lot of people relate strongly to their situations.

More like a version of her mother! Bonnie is a straight up Lisa Bonet character. I find that the nepotism complaints nearly always center on female actors/writers/creators, even though the exact same dynamic (with even more privilege) exists with males. Strange, that. Nepotism and connections are a part of every industry. Yeah I don't know why people keep getting hung up on this. I don't think Kidman's really doing an accent-that's just how she talks. We know very little about Celeste's background, so there's no reason why this shouldn't be her accent. I actually never understand why so many shows force foreign actors to do accent work for parts that don't have to be American; I find that more distracting than just letting them speak naturally.

She's not really parallel to them, though. Renata is the agitator in this story, whereas Madeline, Celeste and Jane are the protagonists. So I don't expect her story to follow the same structure.

My sympathies and good luck to your sister. My sister is also finally leaving an abusive relationship after 12 long years. It's a massive relief, but the leaving itself is going to be incredibly messy and take a long time (they have five children together). I'm really hoping she makes it through this time. I've been a bit appalled at some of the insensitive comments on this board, especially given how many posters have shared how Celeste's story relates to their own experiences or those of their loved ones. I appreciate everyone who's willing to share and try to help others understand. Not sure why you find it unrealistic-she was raped, she was traumatized by it, and she knows that some piece of her rapist exists in her son. Seems like the kind of fear that would nag her forever and be very hard to escape. I get why people are uncomfortable with it, as of course it's not at all fair to Ziggy. But our darkest fears have little to do with fairness. I think this is exactly where the story is going. Jane is afraid for Ziggy because of his genes, while Celeste is in denial about what her sons could be learning from what they see. It makes a lot of sense to me that both of them are misguided.

I keep thinking about that thing in the second episode with Ziggy trying to kiss Amabella, and whether the twins might be doing the same and mixing it with violence, just like they've seen their parents do. Kids pick up on far more than adults realize. Yep, at this point if this doesn't all come back to Perry, it's either someone we know who doesn't make any sense as a culprit, or a new person. I prefer stories to make sense, even if that means I don't get my mind blown. But there's so much to come together still, I think they can surprise us without having an out of left field rapist or murder victim. The shock will be in the how, rather than the what.

I actually thought so, too. They definitely were in my memory, but I think I blew it up a little because I liked the pairing so much. Upon rewatching, they actually only dated for a few months, and Shosh started losing interest in him and then cheating on him a few episodes after they had their big vow of love moment. They were nowhere near the level of Adam/Hannah, and Marnie and Shosh aren't close friends like Jessa and Hannah were. It's probably why Ray and Shosh were able to be friends with relative ease-they had a lot of mutual affection, but they weren't some big dramatic love affair. You're definitely right that Hannah and Adam weren't in a great place when he lost his mind and started up with Mimi Rose, but they weren't broken up and Hannah was absolutely hurt beyond belief at what he did. The specific details elude me, and I haven't gotten there in my rewatch yet. Regardless, I don't think that really changes the nature of Jessa's betrayal.

I really disagree with this. Adam and Hannah absolutely were a love story, and a pretty serious one at that. Rewatching the early seasons is a very good reminder of how deep their relationship actually was. And I think it's too simplistic to paint it with the broad brush of "unhealthy". No relationship on Girls is meant to be a model to aspire to. As @Slovenly Muse so eloquently laid out, in a lot of ways Hannah and Adam were very well-suited for each other. IMO it was about as bad a friend crime as one can commit, and I don't really get why people keep trying to lessen it by comparing it to Shoshannah/Marnie. Hannah was in love with Adam. He broke her heart. She broke up with him because he moved another women into her apartment while she was away- not because she got bored or fell out of love after a couple months (hello, Shoshannah/Ray). For one of her best friends to date him is a huge betrayal on its own, and then Jessa made it so much worse with all the hiding and lying and trying to make it Hannah's fault. If Jessa expressed some real remorse and truly came to Hannah to make amends, I'd be interested in seeing that. But that is not what she did here, and as things stand I hope Hannah was being sincere about not caring anymore. LOL actually, your description is the rewrite. Hannah pretty much realized she wanted Adam to be her boyfriend in the same episode that it happened (you may recall him shouting something along the lines of "What do you want? Do you want me to be your boyfriend?"). He expressed sincere feelings for her starting in the latter end of season 1, more than a full season before the big rescue. He was the one who was ready to be all in as soon as she said she wanted a relationship, and Hannah is the one who started to lose interest initially when he did. Adam was definitely aggressively weird in season 1, but he was also aggressively into Hannah. Echoing everyone who misses Shoshannah. I hope she gets some real story time before the end.

Yeah it's a safety thing-most parents track their kids' social media. I follow my younger sister's accounts and she knows full well that if she posts something alarming on there she's going to hear from me and our mom about it. I think we've seen that Jane is deeply ambivalent about her choice to keep Ziggy, and that seems to manifest in self-destructive behavior. Her story about him shaking so hard when he was born and apologizing for bringing him into the world was gutting. She should be seeing a therapist herself. It's been said before, but anyone who has ever known a woman in an abusive relationship knows better than this. There's nothing simple about the emotions Perry brings out in Celeste, or the mental contortions she'll put herself through to justify staying. I have multiple iterations of the same workout outfit, so it's not weird to me. It does stand out on a TV show, though. I think a lot of it is actually intentional repetitive shots, especially since the sweat stains are always in the same place. It probably has a lot to do with their dynamic. Abusers tend to seek out women who are vulnerable. If Celeste really wanted kids and was struggling with that and needed a lot of emotional support, that would make her a more attractive target to Perry.

Yep, it's called a standing desk and lots of people use them. They seem to be especially popular with the geeky tech guy crowd, so I've always thought it was a spot on characterization choice for Ed.

I'm starting to think the obvious may be where it's at. I prefer a resolution that tracks with everything we've seen over something out of left field just for the sake of a crazy twist. Timeline: if Perry is in fact Jane's rapist, that would mean he was out date raping women in that time period of fertility struggles during which Celeste thinks he was so devoted and wonderful, the root of her unwillingness to leave him. That's so fucking tragic that I think it must be true.

Yep. Nothing about that look communicated secret affair to me. I think he was just happy she was home.

@CleoCaesar

These therapy scenes are absolutely mesmerizing. Hearing Celeste insist that Perry's abuse has no effect on her sons makes me even more certain that they're involved in whatever is happening to Amabella. I wonder if finding out will be her snap out of it moment. I'm starting to suspect Tom the coffeehouse guy of something. I have no idea what, but he sure does get a lot of focus from the camera.

You know, I thought this too, but upon rewatching I have discovered that she has always been this terrible. Her very first scene of the show, she's being awful about Charlie, mocking him to Hannah. And the scene from the Bushwick episode where she insists on going to talk to him post break up, clearly to rub it in. He says it's nice to see her and she says "I thought it might be." That's it! That's what she says to the guy she dated for years. She really is a masterfully drawn and incredibly consistent character.

This weather fixation some of you have is rough. :) I mentioned it last week, but I'll repeat it again: climate change has been majorly messing with our seasons, so this is only going to get worse as the season progresses. They filmed through fall/winter, but we've had straight up spring weather for many of those weeks, with random spurts of real winter thrown in by way of sudden blizzards. As a result, trees and plants are blooming when they're not supposed to be and everything's out of whack. There's really no amount of planning in the world that will get around that.

I don't think we're supposed to believe that Paige has some great passion for Matthew. He's just there at a time when she's incredibly stressed and anxious and looking for a distraction, and he has the bonus quality of being an easy way to rebel against her parents. She didn't even seem to be thinking about sex with him until Elizabeth warned her against it. Big tactical error on Elizabeth's part. This is what I like about the story. It's the every day concerns that are making their jobs so much harder and probably going to bring them down. The Centre's directive for officers to procreate have deeper long term ramifications and consequences than they seem to have considered.

My suspicions are more about this specific actress and her particular talents (if you've watched The Walking Dead, you know what I mean). Would be quite a waste if she was just a pretty girlfriend with a handful of scenes.

Both of them seem completely at a loss for how to parent her now that she's essentially an asset they have to manage, and a particularly volatile one at that. Can't say I'm surprised or know what they should do differently. Paige has responded badly to every attempt they've made to talk to her. I knew Stan's girlfriend was going to be significant as soon as I saw the actress playing her, plus all the build up before we met her. And I definitely interpreted the thing with Oleg as the CIA using Stan's name to get their own operation going.