MissAlmond
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And Orlando!!!!!!!!!! The man who always was Sleepy Hollow's main crusader!!! This <insert drink of choice> is for you!
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Ditto what HalyconDays said! Also a tip of the hat to Aaron Baiers too. It looked like K/O productions suddenly tapped him on the shoulder and the poor man has been drumming up support on Twitter ever since. To all of you who helped make this happen: Thank You!!!!!!! Now take a break, back away from the Twitter, and spend some time with your loved ones! Your work is done. For now. LOL.
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Just heard the news!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!! The true fans spoke and made it happen (ok, so there's still some SH snark left in me LOL).
ETA: Does anyone know what happened to that role playing Ichabod Crane person? Did they finally calm down or were restraining orders issued?
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Well, I'm not like the creatives of SH who apparently believe in arguing a point to the death. I will simply "agree to disagree" on the issue of K/O and Season 2 and leave it at that. Carry on.
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Goffman may have gotten credit for writing the episode but he didn't do anything really original to speak of because it was obviously a direct life of the pilot which Iscove wrote. I see no compelling reason why Kurtzman and Orci who seem to be pretty damn savvy and know what works with chemistry between leads given all their other shows, (Alias, Fringe, ould really have an active hand in dismantling their own show which was a big sleeper hit. I find no logic to that. IMO they were too busy breaking up since they no longer work on films together as a team. Orci was busy with Matador and Kurtzman and Orci with developing Scorpion so I think they just stepped back and gave Goffman the reins. And he ran that horse that carried Katrina right into the ground and now we can thankfully stop beating that particular dead horse.
K/O are Hollywood producers and have enough connections that someone would have told them about the bad reviews hitting the media about SH. Roberto Orci may be called a lot of things, but being timid isn't one of them, this is the same man that got into a Twitter pissing contest with Star Trek fans. If he or Kurtzman had wanted change, they would have picked up the phone, asked Mark Goffman what the hell was he doing, and demanded change. And yet, nothing. FOX, OTOH, says they want creative changes and presto, change occurs. Also, Orci's wife, Melissa Blake, is listed as one of the writers of "Pittura Infamante" - an episode many claim was supposed to be the crowning of Katrina as the female lead. Did Orci not even discuss with her how he envisioned SH? Yes, I believe they all were in agreement, there are even interviews out there with K/O where they talk about the direction of Season 2. Personally, I think they all grew up watching "Bewitched" reruns after school and loved the idea of a powerful witch. Goffman was just louder in his Katrina love which is why he is now gone.
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I have backed away from all the anger I had with SH and have been quietly waiting to hear news of a renewal. But when I saw that Mark Goffman was leaving, I knew I had to come back here ( LOL) although I've pretty much have said all I have to say about him. I truly don't believe the whole debacle of last season was just him - I still believe it came on high from K/O. I think Goffman was the mouthpiece, which accounts for Twitter comment on his behind the scenes book. As I said before, IMO, that was his message to K/O that he would play fall guy but knew where the bodies were bodies so don't screw with his career. And they didn't. I would never blame Iscove, like someone said, he's too new in the game and whoo wouldn't sprout the party line at their first big job?
As for the writing for the finale, I know people are mad at Goffman and therefore can't believe he actually wrote the finale. But the man's name is the one listed in the credits as the writer so have no doubt that he "did" write it. The WGA has their own rules for writing credits and I doubt they're going to roll over and play dead for Mark Goffman. No, he wrote it which in my mind says, he, along with everybody else in that room "could" have written things differently for Season 2 if that was the direction ALL of them had wished to go. But they didn't. I refuse to talk about any actors on the show, only their characters, and it could be the thought of a powerful witch seemed too juicy to them. Creators falling in love with certain characters isn't unknown. Again, back in my soap days (I was a CBS woman!), I also watched The Young and Restless. William Bell created the character of Malcom who was to rape his SIL and "that" was to be the story. That is, until Bell started to think highly of Shemar Moore as an actor and wanted to keep him around as a good guy. But how would that be possible since Malcolm was a rapist? But Bill Bell wasn't a newbie in the soap world, he was very savvy and knew exacatly what to do. He went to the soap press, admitted he had changed his mind about the direction of Malcolm and made a pact with his viewers that they would all pretend the rape never happened. In turn, Bell promised the whole incident would never be mentioned again. With that pact, Bell kept Moore and turned the character of Malcolm around with no protest from his viewers. That is, until Bell died and his own children broke the pact his father had made with his audience, but that's another story. The point is, if K/O, Goffman, Kim et al, had come out like Bill Bell and admitted, "Hey we were so in love with the very idea a powerful witch that we lost sight of what made our show work. Please forgive us as we course correct." Perhaps if they had gone humble, they might have found forgiveness and let's all march together into Season Three. Instead they went smug, which is probably why some refuse to believe Goffman had the ability to write that finale and even if they did believe, they still wanted him, gone, gone, gone.
Anyway, I await to see what happens next. Still hoping to hear the show has been renewed and with a show runner who understands the show. And, FTR, by this I don't mean catering to every whim on their audience. Again, I have no desire to see the Crane Family Drama now become the Mills Family Drama. I do expect them to realize how important the chemistry is between their two leads and that they work best together. And develop that damn town, SH! I mean, really, you have a town full of people who must have all sort of crazy secrets. Example: Why did that girl's mother think it was ok to bring her lover to the father's funeral, especially since, apparently, the daughter is a witch? Are things in SH so nuts the mother figured nobody would care? Hire that girl/mother and let her and others in the town speak up! That's how you lessen the burden of Tom and Nicole being in every scene.
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Also, how did I not know there is a roleplaying Ichabod out there who's completely lost it over this season. It's hilarious and scary at the same time.
This is why, if I were in the entertainment business, I would never expose myself so freely on social media. One wouldn't know if this Ichabod roleplaying character is the type to now spend his time sulking while posting more notes about his "lost love". Or is he one of those who will stalk and kidnap you to demand new episodes be written or he'll take care of things Annie Wilkes style.
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That episode flew by! Loved it, loved it, loved it. But since spoilers were all over the Internet, the biggest surprise for me was Headless chopping off Ben Franklin's head! I guess this means Badass Headless is back.
My tea leaves were wrong and SH really did kill off Katrina. I'm probably one of the few to shed a tear for her. I felt the last two episodes showed how to handle her character and I liked the change. Washington Irving had the answer all along - pair her with Abraham and let it rip.
I wish I had more to say but this whole thing with SH has left me exhausted. Now I'm just waiting for FOX to restore my wild, crazy Monday nights.
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Goffman's TVLine interview about the Finale...
http://tvline.com/2015/02/23/sleepy-hollow-season-3-spoilers-mark-goffman/
The lies he tells.
Of course, if Goffman did produce proof this was really his plan all along (a certified letter dated when SH first started, a contract with script attached signed by Kevin Reilly) and he really did play The Sting on us for over a year, heads would explode across the Internet.
This episode was old school Sleepy Hollow.
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Has it really been 20 years since that quirky little show went off? I thought I was the only one who watched!
I adored that quirkly little show! I was smart enough to tape it but stupid enough to erase it. I still remember the episode where the captain was having - um - "performance" problems at home, so they brought in that woman with the cow to demostrate how she milked it.
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The meltdown gas already began. This Gavin dude from Spoiler TV in my opinion is telling everything while trying to act like he's not telling anything. He's running his big mouth all over Twitter. He's given away the entire plot if you ask me.
I would think there would be some sort of agreement for those who receive advance previews about how much you can and can't say about upcoming episodes Running all over Twitter giving, read between the lines, entire plots sounds like a no-no to me. Maureen Ryan kept her mouth shut about the mid-season finale even though she had issues and addressed her concerns at the time with Goffman. She didn't run around Twitter telling people what would and would not happen. Doesn't this man understand he's probably only hurting himself and his site for receiving future advance previews? SH is only one show amongst many; why risk the anger of other shows? They have the power to decide not to send him, or his site, previews for fear he'll go on another Twitter tangent revealing all. I swear, the ease of social media makes people lose their sense of discretion.
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Not to be contentious, but I don't think times have changed that dramatically - I think that tv's representation has caught up.
Which is exactly what I meant. Real life usually changes long before it appears on the screen, in advertising, etc etc. Sometimes even our own lives is a step behind. I knew parents who protested schools having computers installed even though it was said this was the future. Fast forward a few years later and these same parents never send their subsequent children to schools without them.
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Also, I don't get the obsession with 18-49 male demo, when it's been said for a long while now that there is a lot to be gained from 18-49 female demo.
Hell, there’s a lot to be gained from the over 49 demo, male and female, a group that’s really ignored. I didn’t watch “Harry’s Law” but remember the fallout when that show was cancelled. It had eyeballs but apparently not the right demographic eyeballs. I attend movies at an art house theater. When “The Exotic Marigold Hotel” came out, the place was packed for months with people outside the 18-49 male demographic. Not only did these people see the movie, they also frequented the very expensive restaurants nearby afterward for dinner. I’m sure these restaurants can’t wait for the sequel to be released LOL.
TV people need to wake up and realise this is 2015, everyone is a smarter viewer now. They just have to show goodwill (and will receive it in return from the viewers) and respect the contract they enter in with the viewer. Have broad outlines they know they can rely on, not go back on their premise and try to BS the viewers to make them accept some plot driven nonsense that we know is coming out of nowhere.
Not out of nowhere. It comes from what worked in the past. The saying “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” swings both positive and negative. One reason there is currently sequel after sequel, remake after remake in movie theaters is Hollywood not wanting to break what worked in the past. Sometimes people need to be taken by the hand and led into the future where their eyes are opened. That’s why, when I first came here, I said look up the story of Richard Donner and Marion Dougherty. Donner is a well respected director, yet Dougherty's guiding hand opened his eyes on new possibilities in casting. Donner got it and others can too. People do change which is why (hold your breath), I’m willing to do so for SH, yes even Mark Goffman himself. I’m tired of raging against what can’t be undone. The last show I felt passionate about was "Bakersfield P.D." and it's gone. I'm hoping SH stays around. So, while I know this isn't true of others, I'm personally, giving all involved, myself included, that new day. Because maybe what the writers/producers needed was a guided hand too. After all, in life, there are times when we all do.
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I know I left therapy, but I’m already tired of reading in various forums (I know, I vowed not to LOL) about haters and the masses taking over the show. However, since I’m in a better mood about the show, I won’t go all “I hate you, Mark Goffman!” LOL
The whole “man out of time” label really could be applied to what went wrong with SH. As recently as the 90's, the type of strong chemistry exhibit by Mison and Behaire, turning into something more wasn’t really contemplated much. But if people did, it was brushed aside with much more ease. I was still watching soaps then and remember the chemistry between the characters of Alan-Michael and Gilly on The Guiding Light. The chemistry was so strong that, not only the actors, but soap magazines, were waiting for the two of them to get together. Instead, Alan-Michael was paired with Lucy and Gilly went on her way. And while you had two disappointed actors and some rumblings from fans, that was that. Meanwhile, the grand, sweeping love for all time ala “Titanic” and “The Notebook” had women swooning. Those love stories were the model and they did very well.
However, times have changed. There are many couples - interracial, interfaith, gay - who look nothing like something from “Titanic.” Commercials are already showing this shift. You also have many couples who met each other at work. They understanding that, indeed, friends can become lovers and there’s nothing unusual about that. I also think most people understand in reality, one can be in love and still have an outside life - something movies and TV shows pretend is impossible. So today when you see a couple who have chemistry, the thought that they could get together is a possibility. These type of couples may even have a more modern feel. There is no need to bring in the Lucy’s. Nor does a love story have to be One True Love either. I believe this shift has even been noted as why romantic comedies aren’t the hot commodity they were in the 90's.
I do believe there were viewers who came to SH who loved and wanted the “My heart will go on” type of love story Ichabod and Katrina represented. I believe a lot of the writers probably came into the business in the 90's and that was the type of love story they were used to and comfortable with. Once again, they were telling the truth when they said they didn’t get what made SH worked. It’s interesting to note Baiers, who is younger, seems to have “got it” and this man isn’t even a creative. But his career has started in a different time. And then there's that pesky, outdated thinking that continues to pollute the entire entertainment industry - that being the 18-49 male demographic is apparently the only ones who count. It makes the whole “time travel” device they’re using to reset the show appropriate. I hope we do get our season three and all of us, writers, fans, producers, can move forward and, this time time around, take full advantage of having and understanding everything that can come with the gift of "a new day".
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Glad someone posted this because there's actually a list of campaign activities posted now. Many are Twitter campaigns, including a trending event this coming Monday. Looks like there's too long a list to actually quote it here though - http://sleepyhollowhub.com/post/111580570131/updated-sleepy-hollow-renewal-campaign-and
Nice list and very cool, but what about advice (outside of how to watch on DVR) for non-Twitter/ Facebook fans?
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Oh, thank god. I mean, yeah, not good about the crazy, but I was thinking something even more disturbing
Oh, dear! HalcyonGirl! So what did you think it meant when it was said in the show. On second thought, I don't think I want to know (although I think I do). Glad it's been cleared up for you.
Yeah. ..I agree about trying to attract more "other" viewers. Sponsors are the prize.
It makes no sense that FOX would want to lose the following they established in S1. I don't think that the top echelon at FOX was trying to push all the POC aside. They already had that demographic (or, so they thought). Now, they were trying to capture an additional one. I don't think that they thought they'd lose the audience they already had. They were cocky, arrogant and clueless.
I don't think it was racially (at an institutional level) motivated. I think it was motivated by money, a penis or two and STUPIDITY.
The over the top love and chasing of the 18-49 male demographic is a blight upon the entertainment world.
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“He loves his wife, but he loves Abbie. He properly loves Abbie, in a different way to Katrina, obviously. And I don’t want to encourage ichabbie shippers too much, but he is hopelessly in love with Abbie because he knows he would not survive without her. And vice versa. So that is another reason he cannot follow his emotions, because these are two women he is helplessly in love with, but in different ways.”
— Tom Mison - Sleepy Hollow Magazine, Issue #2
Just how old "is" this interview? Because now that it's posted in its entirely, it seems I read this from Mison long before November. Makes me believe even more that after one person went crazy with Aaron Baiers on Twitter, someone higher up quietly asked for parts of it to be re-leased.
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From the above mentioned review:
. The powers that be want us to come back. They are calling our names, sending up smoke signals, giving away free iPhones at the door. LOL
WHAT!!!!!!!!!! Is it the iphone6? Did I come back too soon and miss out? LOL.
It’s Alexis vs Crystal 2015 y’all.
Hot damn! See SH - you have done "this" a long time ago!
Aaron Baiers -- emoticon master:
Yes, he is. I've seen this love of emotions before. Something tells me Aaron Baiers is a Millennial.
This finale sounds like worthy of making old school popcorn! Can't wait until Monday!!!!!!!!!!!
ETA - I wonder if the SpoilerTV guy has anything to say. Perhaps I should track him down, the weather is bad and I don't have anything better to do. Actually, I do have things better to do, but now I'm in full blown, waiting for the SH finale. Oh, it's good to have crazy, fun Monday nights back. Come on, FOX!
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I was quoting another poster who used that term. My assumption would be someone who is acting crazy. At least that's how I took it.
I am the poster in question who is simply quoting what was said on the show which was "she's touched". Acting crazy is indeed correct.
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Interesting that they’ve started sending Nicole out on all these little press jaunts…I think she did Access Hollywood as well. And I saw a SH promo during “Empire”. After basically hiding your lead black actress while pimping out her European Standard of Beauty co-star, you’ve decided Black is Beautiful after all and you now want to ride the Taraji-Viola wave? Is that what this sudden need to promo the show and Nicole is all about? Or am I being too sensitive?
Some will agree with you and I respect those opinions. I know when Aaron Baiers mentioned promos on Empire, people jumped down his throat and the man backed down. But Baiers (IMO) was simply suggesting a stragetic business decision. FOX wants to be #1 network. They have a show they like enough to give it a second chance with a passionate fan base, but has low ratings. These same passionate fans have said writers of said low rated show have sidelined lead actress most of the season. Now that FOX is in charge, it makes perfect business sense to a) get lead actress out and about and b) pair low rated show with your highest rated one and hope for viewer crossover. FOX isn't a charity, they want a return on their investment and SH has a lot of catching up to do. Trust me, if FOX didn't own SH, this wouldn't even be a question. SH would have joined "Almost Human" and all the other low rated, now cancelled, shows not owned by FOX.
Plus, the PR department is not the same as the creative one. The writers don't tell actors where to go to promote shows, the PR department does. IIRC, doing PR is even written in contracts which is why you currently see actors nominated for Oscars all over the place and why it makes entertainment news when one balks. The writers don't care if these actors go on show after show. The PR department - who promote shows which helps bring in more money - does. We have to all remember the word business is after show for a reason.
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According to Aaron Baiers public Twitter page, FOX has started promoting SH again. Baiers also included another emotions tag, if they don't show up, could a Twitter expert do the honors? Thanks. Also, "Ichabod Crane's" public twitter page continues to be . . . touched.
Aaron Baiers @abaiers · 6h 6 hours ago
Once again you amazing #Sleepyheads have done it!!! Some amazing promos thanks to your #SleepyHollow passion and @FOXTV @SleepyHollowFOX
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Definitely I think it's ideal to have someone who loves the show, works on the show, but who is not an actual writer dealing publicly and directly with the feedback (be it good or bad), having said that I'm not buying into the idea that commercial television exists for any other reason than to sell products. The Wire shouldn't service fans, but Arrow or Sleepy Hollow, or Empire? HELL YEAH service the hell out of me, otherwise SHUT UP DORA, I've got better ways to spend my entertainment time, and my subsequent consumer dollars.
Whenever I hear "Shut up" now, I picture Danny Trejo in that great Brady Bunch snickers commercial:
FOX: "And what do you think is wrong with Sleepy Hollow?"
Goffman and Company: "Um, we need more time for the Crane love story to play out and for viewers to finally understand how awesome Katrina is?"
FOX: "SHUT UP!" (slams down machette). "It's time to teach you guys a lesson."
Anyway, ITA I totally agree Baiers works because his from production so he probably understands things more than the creatives.
Also, it's not just network TV that wants consumer dollars. Netflix flat out stated "House of Cards" was totally developed using internal Netflix data on what their subscribers liked. It was rather creepy and didn't even work for me, because - while I don't mind Kevin Spacey - I've never had a desire to watch HOC or any other streaming show.
Now I really must stop "Interneting" immediately.
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The callback to SH's pilot was outstanding. Raven Metzner, you were all sorts of wrong with your "true fans" comment, but I believe in giving credit when credit is due. Hats off to you on coming up with that amazing sequence. Well played, sir.
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.That's a good question? I don't remember seeing it either. Did it zap back to whoever owned it in that time? Or are there two grimoire's now?
According to the snarky Albert Kim, here's the answer, but first : Yep, Aaron Baiers is the right man for the dealing with fans job!
Yes, Katrina used The Traveler Spell from #SleepyHollow 215. That's why it was introduced there--to set up Eps 217/218. We DO have a plan...
The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?
in Sleepy Hollow [V]
· Edited by MissAlmond