MissAlmond
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I don't know how to quote and I need to get going before the stores open for last minute Christmas shopping LOL. But Moonsky, you're correct about Kim and Metzner which is why I threw their names out there. I understand SH needing new writers, I wish I could produce them under my tree. But SH needs a replacement who could jump right in and the choices in that writer's room don't thrill me. Which is why I asked do we want Kim? Metzner? That's out of the frying pan into the fire. Or maybe in this case, out of the fire and back to the frying pan because I do think Goffman is the worst.
Indi, I think Goffman's plan for Abbie is to trust him that he has a plan for Abbie. In future seasons of course. LOL.
Fantique, I don't recall reading any Ichabbie fan asking for Abbie and Ichabod to stop the good fight and start declaring their love. Again, they've always said end game and when you have actors with off the charts chemistry, there really is no need to write anything different than what they're doing now. Or were doing during the golden days of Season 1. Those interactions could speak for themselves. Lorenz Hart wrote the scernio SH could use years ago. After reading Screenwriters for Dummines, perhaps the writers need to then listen to his lyrics for "I Could Write a Book". And just where are all these television shows where black females characters suddenly go all sappy over love? I'm talking about lead characters here. SH made news exactly because of the rarity of Abbie's character on TV, especially on a sci-fi show. As for racism, no, I don't think Mark Goffman is a card carrying racist. But people should really look up RIchard Donner's conversation on "Lethal Weapon". It took the great casting director Marion Dougherty to open his eyes about his own unconscous bias. They day Mark Goffman admits he's come to the same realization Donner did about himself, I'll trust him as showrunner.
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Oh, I know the reason Kimberella. Mark Goffman isn't fooling me fooling me.
Fantique, my comment on Abbie's back story had nothing to do with Ichabbie. I was referring to Goffman's "Nerdist" where he stated Abbie's story would be played out in later "seasons". To me that's another Goffman bone, yes, I do have a plan for Abbie. Just trust me, keep watching and you'll see. All the while knowing SH at the moment is almost a Dead Show Walking. Even experts who predict Season 3 have added it's because currently FOX has nothing to replace it with.
As for the shippers, as far as I could see not a single one demanded SH turn into a love story. The chemistry was strong enough without the writers changing a single word they wrote. All these viewers wanted and asked for was end game. Even Monk gave that to viewers who remembered the early chemistry between Sharona and Randy. This was a show where, not only was Sharona's character not in it for years, but the actress herself had left on bad terms. That's respect. Would it have hurt this show to give these viewers who kept SH alive in social media this gift? All SH had to do was on the last episode have Ichabod decide to stay in the 21st century with Abbie. As the person who came up with this suggestion stated, this also would have also given the writers one more twist on the orginial short story. It would explain the why on Ichabod Crane never again being seen in the Sleepy Hollow of old. And considering TV hasn't had years and years of black female/white male co-leads period, much less ones with amazing chemistry whose characters later fall in love, it's hardly an old, well known troupe.
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LOL, DeLurker! Perhaps I'm really Mark Goffman’s Sandman.
I do want to take a moment to give another round of applause to Maureen Ryan. Not only did she try to catch the slippery eel that is Mark Goffman, but she’s one of the few (if only) people with access to the show to openly state SH was afraid of their leads chemistry. Because they are, you know.
But when you think about, what was wrong with the shipping of Ichabod and Abbie? Weren’t these viewers simply reacting to the chemistry they saw on TV? Was not that same chemistry stated over and over again as the show’s greatest strength? Did any so-called shipper ask the show become The Ichabbie Love Story or they simply state to make it "end game"? Would some of the viewers kept insisting these two remain friends forever if the chemistry existed between Ichabod and Katrina? And if these fans didn't want romance all that much, why are they gushing about it when it comes to Katrina? And what would be so wrong about a show that ended up two friends realizing it was love by the last episode? Was this not the premise of When Harry Met Sally? Isn’t that why that movie included Rodgers and Hart’s “I Could Write a Book?” Did moviegoers jump up in protest stating they wanted Harry and Sally two characters to remain friends at the end? Don’t get me started with the whole brother-sister conversations. Outside of “Flowers in the Attic” what sane showrunner wants their show’s brother/sister characters to have that sort of chemistry?
Goffman could have even had another nod to Washington Irving.. As someone pointed out on another board, the short story ends with Ichabod Crane never being seen again. Her suggestion was this was because Ichabod Crane had jumped into the 21st century. But did that thought ever occur to Goffman? That here was yet another twist with a tie to Washington Irving he could use? And what’s with killing off Frank when Frank should be there at the end writing The Legend of Sleepy Hollow? Of course, now I’m reading Frank might come back after all, but I don’t know if that was always Goffman’s plan or just another bone to shut people up. Because as long as it doesn’t impact Goffman’s All Things Katrina vision, he’s willing to toss a bone now and then.
Instead of mocking critics with pictures of writers reading Screenwriters for Dummies, perhaps Mark Goffman should stop and actually read the book. I suggest starting with the chapters dealing with “How Not to Let it Look a Gift Horse in the Mouth”. Future editions will be revised to include the chapter entitled: "Mark Goffman and the Egomaniac Showrunner”.
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Moonsky speaks the truth.
When the Sony e-mail leaks and the Aaron Sorkin and the banning of the writer’s room stories came out, I immediately thought of Mark Goffman and Sleepy Hollow. One of my first postings stated Goffman doesn’t believe “this is who he is”. I can also see all these newbie writers agreeing with him, even if internally they believe he’s wrong.
Knowing now of Goffman’s background in politics, every move he makes is so clear. He’s not a stupid man, make no mistake about that. Like Moonsky said, he knows exactly what he’s doing. He always said what his vision was, people simply discounted it because they believed he was teasing the audience. But I always believed him and knew immediately after the Headless reveal where this show was going. Sadly I see no escape either because Goffman has found the perfect show, network to keep his vision - at least up to Season 3 - alive. One more season may be all he wants from SH anyway.
Think about it. Chances are slim to none that Kutzman and Orci will step in. They are the new breed of TV show creators. Big names who get the ball rolling, most only have a hand in the pilot episode, but some stick around for Season 1. But after that, they’re off to bigger projects, their names forever on the show credits, but they themselves are gone. Think David Fincher with “House of Cards”. How many episodes did he actually direct after the pilot? But HOC won’t lose its focus on who was first presented as the lead character. Kevin Spacey, unlike Nicole Behaire, has an Oscar and producer credit in hand. There will be no Mark Goffman making Spacey’s character an after thought on that show. For the leads of SH, this is their big break. SH doesn’t have old school creators who stick around to make sure their vision remains. Make no mistake, love Sons of Anarchy or hate it, the vision remains Kurt Sutter’s. That’s how true creators take care of their shows.
FOX? Fox has bigger problems than Sleepy Hollow, their ratings this year is a total mess. No matter how bad things are, the last I heard, SH still remained their #2 scripted show. Goffman is probably smart enough to also realize there’s lingering suspicion over FOX’s motives. So he tosses the network a bone every now and then, satisfies the network he’s “fixed” things and once the executives turn their attention to their other problems, Goffman goes right back to his vision. If the ratings continue their slide, disappointed viewers won’t blame him. They’ll blame FOX.
New showrunner? Goffman is one of the producer, I doubt he will fire himself. Besides, who will this new showrunner be? Albert Kim? Raven Metzner? Phil Iscove may be the real creator, but no network is going hand a show over to a newbie like him. That’s why Kutzman and Orci had to pitch Iscove’s idea in the first place. Those newbie writers won’t get the job either, after reading about Sorkin, I’m sure they’re keeping their heads down to make sure they’re not locked out of the writers room. I do know there is someone else in that room whose name escapes me, perhaps they would do right by this show.
Yes folks, Goffman the politician, turned showrunner knows the game he’s playing. He appeases FOX when he has to, throws out a bone to Ichabbie fans to get them to shut up, parcels out hope things will change (Abbie’s story will be shown in future seasons - as if SH will get that), takes Maureen Ryan’s tough questions and spins answers back to his vision, tells those who refuse to stop questioning him that he feels attack and they aren’t true fans anyway. And he knows his constituency. He also probably figures that even some of his attackers will keep tuning in, if nothing more, to support the actors. Heck, he’s even really thrown his favorite leading lady to the wolves. Note those hashtags are all about Katrina, not #ShowrunnersBetterthanMarkGoffman. Goffman will be fine in the industry because most viewers haven’t a clue about the behind the scenes people. Katia Winters, OTOH, might not be as lucky.
I guess that’s why I can’t quit reading postings about SH. It’s like a crazy fascinating case study of how to ruin a show with the person charge not caring because their unpopular vision is what matters. I just hope one day in the future, one of those newbies will make it big in the industry. Then, when confronted with a Mark Goffman, immediately step in and correct things, telling their grateful fans: “I learned what to do years ago while working on Sleepy Hollow . . .”.
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Sleepy Hollow won’t be cancelled. Every media outlet agrees FOX’s programming is in such bad shape, that for them SH’s numbers are great. Ratings would have to drop to the level of only cast and crew families watching for FOX to pull the plug. Even then, FOX still has nothing to replace SH with, so Season 3 will be. Sadly, this situation means there’s really no incentive for change. Reilly isn’t coming back. O/K have too many other projects to work on. A Season 3 gives FOX time to work on a replacement in case SH continues to nosedive. That leaves Goffman in the cat bird seat to do whatever he wants to next season. If SH is cancelled after Season 3, he's already told his story. Also, let’s not forget, there is a very happy group of viewers who are thrilled Season 2 proved how epic the Crane love story is. They are happy to let you know any criticism is due to “shipper” unhappiness. These are Goffman’s true fans; he loves them and he's happy writing for them because they're all on the same page. So unless someone higher up steps in and intervenes, don’t expect to see any changes next year.
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Mo Ryan touched on it in that podcast. I’ve long thought it but do not see myself and want to be labeled a “shipper”. But this is a show afraid of, and running away from, the chemistry of their two leads.
Now I don’t think Goffman sees himself like that. He believes, he’s young, he’s cool, he’s hip. He understands social media and has been following comments. But this is a man who is afraid to push “that” button. Or afraid that people will think he will push that button. So he stays in his comfort zone with his real fans, his true fans, his fans who write on SH Facebook walls declaring they need more and more Katrina. He’s listening and delivering so why the complaints? Why the distrust?
IMO, for Season 2, SH needed a seasoned television professional at the helm. One who might not have cast the show as is, but could see viewers and critics responded to it. One who didn’t necessarily follow social media, but knew that a genre show being praised in the press is always a good thing. Then know enough to run out and hire a social media person. One who would have hired writers and told them to let their imaginations soar. One who could herd a Mark Goffman in and tell him: “You’re screwing with my livelihood, Mark”. One who knew he had the rare gift of off the charts chemistry between his leads and immediately went out and sacrificed that goat.
You don’t have to be a shipper to see and understand the gift of on screen chemistry. Nobody told SH to write love scene after love scene for Ichabod and Abbie. Well, maybe some did but that would have been a mistake too. However, it should be a given to write to ones strengths which for SH are Ichabod and Abbie on screen together. I felt Season 1 got the two witnesses were right: Not Abbie and Jenny. Not Ichabod and Katrina. But Abbie and Ichabod and it worked to the shows advantage when it had the right writers. And why mess with the awesomeness that was once Badass Headless? The leads chemistry and Headless terrorizing Sleepy Hollow with his ax and AK47 made people sit up and pay notice. It’s what led to “Fuck Yeah, Sleepy Hollow!”. Goffman ruined SH for me with his quest to tell us over and over again how we need to know even more of the Crane’s epic love. He truly believes the chemistry gods landed on Ichabod and Katrina. Actually, he probably believes the chemistry gods just landed on Katrina, Ichabod just happened to be standing there. So, trust him, he’s going to write for that chemistry and make all the true fans happy.
Really, I need to even give up this board. But it’s hard There are some posters here I wish I could have drinks with and truly talk over this. Plus, I did love Season 1 so much and had such high hopes. Sigh. It’s all so disappointing and sad but I really need to Let. It. Go. But before then, oh yeah. Fuck you, Mark Goffman.
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Judging from what I remember of the comments on TV By The Numbers, the first rumblings started after the reveal of Headless being Katrina's ex-beau. For a show that seemed to be full force at total batshit crazy, this reveal seemed small. But the first warning shot seemed to become lost with the whole the Sin Eater is the Crane's son cliffhanger and all the media hype that followed.
And I too wanted to see more of the TOWN of Sleepy Hollow in Season 2. At the risk of repeating myself, I wanted to see who was good, who was evil and who were ordinary citizens watching their town go to hell and wondering if the time had come to move. Sadly, none of that happened and now a lot of viewers are past caring, Mark Guffman's pleas of "trust me" none withstanding.
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BTW - I so wish that during public interview or discussion of the show with Goffman and the writers, the Sandman would suddenly appear and force them to reveal why they really changed the dynamic of the show.
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Venting on this board made it easier for me to quit SH, yet there are posters here whose opinions I respect and part of me keeps hoping they’ll finally post the word that SH of old has returned. Sadly, I think that’s a pipe dream on part but hope springs eternal in the human breast.
I still believe that making Headless, Crane’s old friend and Katrina’s ex-whatever, was a mistake. But it is a mistake that’s grounded in Irving’s tale, so I could live with it. What I didn’t expect was for the show to turn badass Headless into a version of a disillusioned Buzz Lightyear sipping tea. To me, the Jeremy/Henry story was a huge mistake. Turning the Sin Eater into the Crane’s son is a great cliffhanger but then what? Since I never watched Fridge, I had no allegiance to John Noble but I will admit the man is a very good actor. But Henry’s story is a show sucking device for me, and I so wish instead, Noble had been cast as the Evil Mayor of Sleepy Hollow. I also would have preferred that none of the Horseman have any connection with Crane or Abbie, although as noted above, I give leeway to Brom due to the short story. I didn’t mind Katrina’s not quite the whole story advice of Season 1, I never needed her as an all powerful witch. Unlike others, I preferred Jenny as recurring and frankly, had no need for Frank’s family. I always saw Frank as another nod to the original story who writes “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow“.
I guess my disappointment is that this show had so much going for it in Season 1 (or at least up to “The Midnight Ride”). Badass Headless. WASHINGTON’S BIBLE!!! The Sandman (who happens to be my favorite “monster” of them all). The twist on American history. Craziness everywhere, as was fitting a town with a Headless Horseman running about. I expected to see the town’s reaction in Season 2. Who was good? Who was evil? And what about the ordinary citizens of SH seeing all the craziness and now worried about their property values?
Most importantly of all, this show was unexpectedly blessed by the tv gods with an amazing chemistry between their two leads. A viewer didn’t have to be all about shipping to see this. Chemistry is chemistry and when it comes to fictional characters it’s what Frank Loesser wrote in Guys and Dolls:
“Mine will come as a surprise to me
Mine I lead to chance and chemistry”
“Chemistry?”
“Yeah, chemistry”The strong chemistry between Crane and Abbie was indeed a "surprise" to the writers. Most showrunners would have sacrificed a baby goat in appreciation of this gift, as it is rare indeed. Instead, not only did Goffman toss this in the trash can with a shrug and an “eh” but he obviously listened to and agreed with people who reminded him over and over how they never, ever, never, ever, never, never, never (did I mention never) wanted to see even a remote chance Crane and Abbie getting tingtogether. That what we were seeing was all sibling related. Or best friends related. Or, - hey, what about Katrina? But Mark Goffman is no Frank Loesser.
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From what I remember, the producers/writers of SH laid out their long range plan and the show was green-lit so Goffman is hanging on to that story. The problem, IMO, is that the characters themselves aren't following the gameplan (smart writers understand this happens at times) and instead of Goffman going with them, he's trying to beat the charaters into submission. Goffman wants the SH he signed up for. But I have a feeling the producers/writers don't want to go where the characters are leading. Orci and Kutzman are well aware of the feedback they got from Spock/Uhura, I'm sure they don't have the stomach to go down that path with fandom again. And to me sure, there are fans out there who love everything about Season 2. I'm simply not one of them but it's Goffman's show and he can write for whatever part of fandom he wants. But Mark, I don't believe those Live 7++ are due to people clearing their schedule for perfect time to watch SH. I think it's more that they're watching late because SH is like homework and thank goodness for fast forward.
Anyway, I want to thank the posters on this board for listening to me. I really didn't plan to post this much, I just signed up to get things off my chest. It's made it easier for me to let this show go which is sad because I loved it so before. But I'll always have Season 1.
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Sorry, me again. I guess I just have to get these things off my chest LOL.
Two examples of what I’m talking about. Frank tells Ichobod and Abbie that Brom has become the Horseman of Death, but due to love of Katrina, he’s a lovesick wimp. The Witnesses approach Headless this way only to discover that yes, it is Brom, but he’s no wimp. He means business and instead is our Headless of old.
Or when Frank sees Mayor Parrish, he tells Ichobod hey that’s your kid of which Icohbod looks at Frank sideways. Frank thinks, okay, so I must have dreamt that too and just thinks of Henry as the obnoxious mayor of SH who Frank continues to have run ins with. The truth is while Henry is indeed not the Crane’s son, he is the Horseman of War and he means business too.
By doing this, the writers can use Frank in ways to get the show back on track. But I doubt it will happen because the writers already believe the show is on track. It’s just that some of us refuse to see their glorious vision.
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Dallas-ed? Ha! Ha! No, I don’t want Sleepy Hollow to go all “dream season”. I just want portions of Season 2 plots to be part of Moloch’s plan to drive Frank mad. SH is (or was LOL) a supernatural show so it should be easy to write that Moloch mixed up Frank’s mind with truth and lies. Frank becomes a blessing and a curse to The Witnesses since some of what he knows is truth, some fiction. The writers can scrub what didn’t work and keep what did. Heck, they can even use flashbacks, something Dallas wasn’t able to do because they wanted viewers to simply forget the previous season. I want Frank to remember and his advice to bring confusion at times. The reason why Moloch did that becomes clear at the end of the show. Not that everybody else is dead at the end of the series, but that Frank’s role was always meant to be the scribe who wrote the story of how good triumphed over evil.
The problem is I don’t think SH’s current producers/writers are imaginative enough to retool the show. Strong writers understand that sometimes characters take on lives on their own and not the one the writer imagined them to be. A smart writer retools and follows where the characters take them. The writers on SH, OTOH, seem to want to continue to impose their will on their characters. I think it’s why they double down when things don’t go their way and only listen to people who think as they do. It’s like, damn you characters you will do as I say. It’s not working but they refuse to believe it. Even the critic they reached out isn’t going to help them since apparently the biggest problem he sees is Hawley. Getting rid of that character was the advice offered. No. It’s deeper than that.
But SH most likely will be renewed for Season 3. FOX has problems this year and for them, SH current bad ratings are okay. From what I hear, there currently is nothing else there to replace the show, so a Season 3 there will be. It’s Season 4 that’s in jeopardy and unless the writers immediately not only acknowledge but fix the problems of Season 3, the show is most likely doomed. And sadly, I don’t see this current group of writers acknowledging and fixing anything.
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Yes, it's probably Kevin Reilly they're speaking of; it was known he loved Sleepy Hollow. After Reilly left, Mark Goffman was everywhere. Unlike others, I believed every word he said about SH Season 2, which is why I mentally started to wean myself from the show. I knew where Goffman was headed. It's all just so sad.
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Wow! Just when I finally decided to join Previously TV to discuss SH, the”stan” has hit the fan. I’m not surprised at the direction Season 2 has taken. I remember Goffman’s comments during the hiatus and unlike many, I never believed he was being coy. I thought he was telling the truth which made me wary. It’s also clear now that the writers really didn’t know what made the show tick, somehow they believed if they could only explain Katrina, everybody would go along with them for the ride. That some may be upset and losing it on Twitter is probably due to shock. My advice: I concur with the suggestion of not making Henry Ichabod’s son. That idea probably is great for a cliffhanger, but then what? Unlike many, I wouldn’t even get rid of Katrina, make her a ghost again, whispering vague suggestions that make no sense. My scenario? Have Season 3 begin with Irving discussing the events of Season 2 with Abbie and Ichabod only for them to say they don’t know what he's talking about. Irving gets up, looks out the door and it’s the police station, (Luke there’s too!). While Irving is scratching his head over this, the mayor of Sleepy Hallow roars in wanting to know WTH Irving is up to, when suddenly we realized it’s Henry! No, he’s not the son, he’s the mayor, he’s always been the mayor, he never loses an election no matter how many people claim to vote against him. Why? Because Moloch put him there. As the season goes on, Irving continues to meet up with people who he sees as the person they were in Season 2, but they really aren’t. Basically, a lot of things that happened in Season 2 really was Moloch messing with Irving’s mind. The writers now have a fresh start without entirely losing Season 2 and they can keep their cast. Katrina is back to being a ghost. Headless can go back to being a Bad Ass. They keep Henry and he’s still bad. Hawley stays, give him a different back story, bring back Jenny, and restore the Ichabod/Abbie relationship. Stop making everything personal to Ichabod and return it once again to whatever was written in Washington’s Bible (and have each succeeding president know what as in the Bible, some of them even driven bonkers in office <cough cough Nixon> knowing its contents. In other words, bring it, SH. You did it in Season 1, you can do it again in Season 3 Oh, and the reason why I suggest making Irving the one who is dazed and confused? n my head I still see his character as the show’s tribute to Washington Irving. At the end of the entire show, I want Irving sitting down at a computer writing “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow.”
Just adding my wild and crazy ideas! And SH could use some wild and crazy ideas again.
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The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?
in Sleepy Hollow [V]
Oh and one more thing. Moonsky I'm in 100% agreement about SH chances of a third season due to the overall picture at FOX. Even if SH tanks, a third season would give FOX time to develop a replacement show. I makes me wonder if they regret outright canceling Almost Human?