FabulousTater

When I think Dark Swan I can honestly say I never thought "Oh, Emma is gonna look like one of the Palmer Girls from Robert Palmer's 80s song Addicted to Love. Yes, perfect." I can't roll my eyes any harder. It's physically impossible.

I figure they ended with Emma disappearing and the focus on the dagger with her name on it for one simple reason: Dramatic effect. That's all. There's no mythology here, it's just about the shocking!twist. TBH, aside from just hating that they turned Emma into the Dark One, it's actually not a bad cliffhanger. And I think from that POV it works best as a cliffhanger if the last shot is of just the dagger but now it has Emma's name on it. It leaves the audience with one statement -- Emma is now the Dark One -- but many questions; What does it mean Emma's the Dark One now? Is she all sparkly? Is she still kinda herself but a Dr. Jekyll Mr Hyde thing going on? Maybe she's completely possessed by the Dark One with no control or like the Fred/Illyria scenario from Angel. I think from these writers' POV leaving things like that is preferred because it gives them all spring and summer to figure out where they want to go with it. By not showing us Emma, they haven't committed to much of anything other than they made Emma the Dark One because her name is on the dagger. I'm just not seeing a separation as anything other than angst porn. I think we all know Hook would miss and be very worried about Emma and that he will move heaven and earth to get to her, so writing all this angst wouldn't reveal anything new about him or anyone else. To me it sounds like angst for the sake of angst. I think you can still have those moments that show the emotional repercussions (to Emma and her loved ones) because of what's happened to Emma but without separating Emma from everyone else. I think it's more powerful if Hook and her family are witness to whatever she has turned into (or is turning into) because it gives them something to react to and deal with rather than it being a long boat ride with a bunch of sad faced "heroes" who don't know anything other than "Welp, Emma's the Dark One and missing..." Plus, I just think it would feel like higher stakes if Emma is still in town with everyone else and they are having to deal with her (and the threat I assume she poses) from the get go. For me this show works best when all the characters are having to deal with each other (and even better when they are talking to each other one on one). IMO I think that's one of the reasons season 3A worked because the writers figured out that these core characters dealing with each other and talking to each other about their "ish" is what the audience wants. Rumpel has always been a lone gunman of sorts so separating him from the group in 3A didn't really hurt anything too much (other than it went on too long and turned Rumpel into a sad sack). What the problem with the writing still is is that the pacing doesn't slown down enough on letting these characters (that aren't Woegina) talk with each other one on one (the one on one conversations are too far and few between, IMO) and the emphasis is always on the plot and action and ridiculous exposition. I mean, in 3A the writers got the part about the focus needing to be on the core characters figured out but after that it all went to sh*t after that. The writers were squirrels hopped up on crack jumping from plot point to plot point with no rhyme or reason. There's no room for the character's to breathe, no room for the characters to react to each other and deal with each other like real human beings. The characters act based on however the plot dictates and It's just Boom! monster! Boom! Portal! Boom Evil Villlain #13123123123! Boom! Forgive Woegina for Evil Thing #972361723 even though she doesn't regret it! To me all that is one of the bigger problems with this show. For my money I think it's better for the "drama" and for the characters if Emma is still in Storybrooke with them and they are face to face with Dark One Emma, which forces them to deal with each other and how this (probably) warps their relationships with Emma, and the repercussions of it all and the implications if they are unable to remove the Dark One from her.

I really don't think Emma was sent off to Camelot or anywhere else. FWIW I think she's still in Storybrooke and I prefer that scenario to any other. I think that the only interesting part of turning Emma into the Dark One is how that affects Emma herself and her relationships with her loved ones. And all those effects can't be "explored" (that's in quotes because my idea of exploring and A&E's are not the same thing) if Emma's not in the same place as everyone else. (assuming there's anything interesting about this story line that doesn't feel like a contrived ass pull created for the explicit purpose of knocking down the real good guys another 50 pegs and making the show's resident a-holes look more like misunderstood woobies versus the actual evil a-holes they really are. I really, really, really, really hate the idea that doing something utterly selfless and good makes you evil. I hate that they've made Emma into the Dark One with everything. I've. Got. *loathing intensifies*). IMO, having Emma separated from everyone else comes off as mostly angst porn. Turning the narrative into Hook and Charming's (+ others) adventures to find Emma changes the story that should largely be about Emma and her relationships to instead about Hook, Charming's (et al) angst. And for all the whining we do about Woegina the black hole, I think that would turn Hook into a black hole of angst. Which I guess if your in this for Hook is great, but if you're not then no thanks. Having Emma disappear to Camelot and being all villainous there IMO isn't interesting outside of "Ooooh, we get so see Camelot!" and that's something that can be done without mysteriously banishing Emma to that realm. An Emma in Camelot would be threatening/interacting with characters we don't know and have no vested interest in and that I think lowers the dramatic tension. To incorporate Camelot and those characters, the show could easily interweve Camelot flashbacks/flash sideways with the current Storybrooke shenanigans -- as Hook and et al. slowly figure out a way to get rid of the Dark One that's cursed/possessed Emma, for example. Plus, I don't get why Emma would disappear to another realm, but the dagger, which now has her name on it, is left behind. That makes no sense, though lack of sense is something that has never stopped these writers.

I guess since you singled out my posts multiple times, Cindy, I'll respond to your critiques of my critiques. Yes, everyone has dreams. That's great (that's a sincere remark, btw). But their dream isn’t in question. It’s their ability to execute. People can be the warmest, kindest teddy bears in the universe, but being a nice human being isn’t exclusively related with competency and having the ability to do a job. In this case, show running. It’s not about disagreeing with their dream, it’s that there are clear structural issues with how the show is written. There are huge issues with their pacing, the show internals are for the most part bereft of logic, and they continually fail to pay-off on their setups. These writing issues have been on going since season 2 and they have generally failed to address these problems, and in some instances have doubled down on their worst habits. That’s super for them that they are living a dream of theirs, but if they want to keep living their dream, perhaps it would behoove them to pay more attention to what are clear problems and failures in their show. Their dream is, after all, contingent on meeting the expectations of their network ABC (and that expectation is to make the network money) and judging by the current ratings their ability to meet that monetary demand is slipping - quickly. Though, I suppose, if their dream is to achieve cancellation after failing to execute, then live that dream, guys. You’re doing well.

This. There's not motivation for Emma to be wreaking havoc as the new Dark One or to go all sparkly, no holds barred evil like Imp Rumpel did. Even Rumpel who willingly murdered someone to get the dagger had some control over the Dark One's influence. His problem was with being unable to let go of his thirst for power. But Emma has never had that issue and she was tied to the dagger by an act of selfless sacrifice. So, what the hell? Does this mean s5A is going to be a half-season arc of Emma stark, raving mad because she's got dark voices in her head??? Or is Zelena gonna escape from her looney bin cell, get a hold of the dagger, and use Dark One Emma to kill people? I mean, that's just angst for the sake of angst. This is just a poorly thought out plot that sounds good at first blush, but when you think it through (which these writers never do) it doesn't pass muster.

Ah. Thanks, HoodlumSheep :-) I thought some new ratings number had been posted elsewhere and I was sitting here wondering where people were getting this new information...

I'm confused. Tvbythenumbers has OUAT finale rating as 1.7, which lines up with the average of the half hour breakdowns from Marc Berman at TV Media insights . So where is everyone getting that the finale earned a 1.8 finale rating?

But that's the point, her having the realization in the AU and then going forward with saying ILU, as she clearly intended to, would've been a capstone to Emma's character development and growth that she experienced in the AU. There's a difference between writing someone in-character and purposefully sabotaging character development for the sake of suspense. And this instance was a clean cut case of the latter. The moment was built explicitly for that ILU to happen, Emma was on the verge of saying it, but the writers denied it's completion because they wanted to tease the audience. The writers sabotaged Emma's character development for the sake of their shocking ending! That was their entire reason for not having Emma say ILU. It was never about Emma or Hook being in character, it was about A&E trolling the audience.

I keep seeing people saying they wished that the finale plot was the plot for 4B, and I can't help but disagree and that's mostly for one reason: This. These writers just aren't good enough to pull off an AU for an entire half-season arc. They couldn't even write one episode with a believable and compelling AU story, but you think they can do a half season of it and it won't end up being a pile of meaningless crap that has even less consequences than what we did get? Ya, riiiight. I have some swamp land I want to sell to you all... I really dislike 4B and thought the QoD weren't pointless, but an entire half-season dedicated to an AU written by these writers? Oh, Hell to the NO.

Same. I was giving this some thought this morning and the only fanwank I have is that making Emma the Dark One means people aren't getting their happy endings. My reasoning is that since 4B spent a lot of time hammering us with the idea that Emma is the one with the power to give happy endings in Storybrooke, and Dark!Emma can give villains happy endings (because before they couldn't get happy endings, which is actually a total lie, but that's the lie the show is selling) then normal folk and heroes can't get their happy endings anymore if Emma is the Dark One. Ya, it's thin reasoning and I don't think it really withstands scrutiny, but it's all I got. The other (and more likely) option is that A&E were just talking out their asses and trying to hype an ending without giving anything specific away. Meaning, the "change of condition" was just a line they were using to sell this crap end to 4B and in actuality means nothing.

YES! Exactly. I just don't understand how the writers fail at this time after time. It defies reasoning. How does crap like this make it out of the writers' room?! I just hope there was at least one person in the writers' room saying, "OMG, no! You're not letting Emma say ILU and are instead waiting for the end before she sacrifices herself for her to say it?!? That's a horrible idea!!! It makes more sense for her to say it here and it pays off on personal realization her character just had in the AU!!" I mean, how do the showrunners themselves not understand just how crappy what they did was? I just wanna grab A&E by the scruff of the necks, shake them really hard, and then smack them with a rolled up magazine (a heavy one, like Cosmo's Fall Fashion Annual) until they either cry or they have a real Come To Jesus moment about this garbage that they are writing. ...Pffft, who am I kidding? This show and the showrunners are hopeless. I give up.

This just goes back to the writers of this show not knowing when to pay-off a built up scene and instead giving those moments short shrift because they want to save it for their not!shocking, predictable!twist. Having Emma say ILU to Hook when she first sees him when they return from the AU would've been completely perfect pay-off to what Emma just went through, and would've also been an excellent moment of growth for her because in the past she's only said ILU to anyone right before everyone is going to die. It actually made no sense for her to withhold saying it especially in light of what she said while in the AU. The writers should've given Emma that moment of telling Hook ILU when they were reunited, but because these writers are hacks they robbed that scene, of Emma and Hook's reunion, of it's full emotional power. What should've been a scene that had people (who are invested in Emma, Hook, or CS) fist-bumping and yelling "YAS!" in joy, was deflated because they wanted to save that ILU for their shocking!twist. That's hack writing; That's shit writing. When you withhold the logical progression in the development of a character and a relationship for the sake of creating a shocking!twist then you've lost the focus of what really matters in telling a story; because it's no longer about the characters and instead it's about you indulging in a need to feel smug by toying with the audience. I think it's just clear evidence that A&E are only interested in gimmicks rather than what they really should be focused on - staying true to the characters and telling the character's story.

LOL! This made my day :) I mean, The Tater Cult does not judge members or applicants extracurricular activities as long as they remain true to The Tater Cult's mission statement -- We embrace all those who are willing to submit, without hestitation, to the Tater Cult's primary and secondary directives, #DieReginaDIE and #KillHenry, respectively. The Author, unfortunately, chose to ignore the prime directive and instead made Regina a hero. His application and (failed) ritual offering for The Tater Cult membership was rejected as a result, but his efforts to kill Henry did merit him a second chance should he ever wish to reapply for membership. The Tater Cult - Intensely despising all things Woegina and The Truest Stupid since July, 2014.

That's the thing, isn't it. When it comes to this show, I think you could replace the entire writing staff, but as long as The Deluded Duo are in charge, nothing will change in terms of quality of content: They still have their Woegina permaboner; the storylines don't make sense and it's actually gotten progressively worse as the seasons go by; their worldbuilding is non-existent; their idea of fresh ideas are ret-cons; and their pacing is total crap (and not just when it comes to individual episodes, half season and full season arcs are terribly paced). Unless ABC assigns an overlord to pull A&E's heads out of their asses, the show is doomed to get progressively worse and worse as it wears on.

So full disclosure, haven’t watched this episode. Based on what I gathered reading through the live chat (plus piecing that together with what I know from the spoilers thread), I don’t think I will be watching the finale at all. Here's what I got happened: Emma and Hook don’t show up until the second hour Hook dies in the AU Robin and Regina TLK or something to save the day. *vomit* Henry is the new author *vomit x 2* (because people should be giving all powerful positions to 12 year olds. Ya, that’s not at all like giving a toddler a live grenade. I mean, what could go wrong *rolling my eyes*….Ya, everyone single person in the Enchanted Forest is too stupid too live. This was a Henry Sue episode, wasn’t it. I'm still voting for #KillHenry2k15) In the last 5 minutes, Emma disappears and now Emma is the new Dark One. Pfft, f that noise. Added salt in wounds bonus: she did it save Regina, Unrepentant Mass Murderer Extaordinaire, UGH! FFS <insert_multiple_expletives_here>!! I’m composing vicious hate mail to the writers in my mind) Did I get most of this right? Because if so, I’ve no interest in watching any of this. Any CS scenes can be gotten on YT and many have already appeared in GIFs on my tumblr dash, so…there’s that...