[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

this combined with the facts that we learned in 1.06 that Emily and Richard came to the inn to visit when Rory was little and in 6.13 we learn that Emily invited Lorelai to the first Christmas party after she left Hartford leads me to believe that the estrangement was largely by Lorelai's choice.

From Emily and Richard's perspective since moving out with Rory caused the estrangement it was Lorelai's choice.  If they had been able and/or willing to admit that once Lorelai turned 18 she had a right to live elsewhere with Rory and met her on her terms without trying to control her I think Lorelai would have come around at some point.  Since they weren't, I think she really had no choice but to not to try to have a relationship with them.  I think it's sad that Richard and Emily came so few times to visit Rory, and that Lorelai feels she had a negative affect on their relationship for not accepting that first invitation.

 

I completely agree that Emily and Richard should have tried harder with Lorelai and to be in Rory's life.  Having said that, their daughter rejected them in a pretty emotionally brutal way, so I can see why they might think that they weren't wanted, so it was best to stay away.

I agree, but also feel Lorelai was in a tough position with no one on her side.  I feel like she summed it up nicely in  Emily in Wonderland:

Mom, I was very young and I was very unhappy and I needed to be some place that wasn't here.

 

I do understand how devastated Emily was and how personal it must have felt to both of them.  I just wish they'd been able to break out of that mindset that their daughter wasn't behaving the way she should and try to support her the way she was. They had all the power and I would imagine Lorelai only left because it was the only way she could regain control over her own life.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

I think it would be very hard to maintain a relationship with the grandchild when you are estranged from the mother.

True, but why did Lorelai leaving their house with Rory mean they had to stay estranged?  I think Lorelai would have appreciated some help with Rory over the years as long as it was on her terms.  I understand why Emily didn't offer, but it makes me sad that she didn't try harder to be a part of their lives when Rory was younger.  It probably didn't even occur to her that it was more difficult for Lorelai to bring her to them, especially if she didn't have a car.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

In The Deer Hunters Lorelai knows that it's possible she pushed Rory down the Harvard path. She knows that they have been pursuing that dream from before Rory could have understood it. It doesn't mean she was pushing Rory against her will, just that it was something that came up, Rory expressed an interest in and Lorelai ran with it.

It was well established that Rory loved learning things and reading from a very young age.  We saw that in Rory's excitement the first time she visited Harvard and also later her excitement about the history of learning at Yale.  We also clearly saw Lorelai wasn't excited about these same things. My daughter had something she loved and was drawn to at a very young age, even before she could talk. Even though it wasn't something I loved in the same way I always encouraged and supported her in it, and now it plays a significant role in her happiness as an adult. I can say for sure it wasn't my dream, and if she'd lost interest in it along the way I would have gladly supported her in the next thing (and likely saved a lot of money).  So, to me Lorelai was doing what every good parent does by encouraging Rory in the things she loves. Sure, a toddler doesn't understand the significance of Harvard but when a little girl who loves to learn finds out it's a place where people go to do that it's not such a surprise that she would feel drawn to it (and maybe she also liked the color of Harvard's sweatshirt). As far as Rory's doubt about continuing at Yale after Mitchum told her she didn't have it--I would say that was more because Rory decided on a career goal too early, not because her mother pushed her to go to Harvard from the age of 4.  Many college students have chosen their careers before thoroughly exploring their skills and aptitudes, and that is often why they change their major during college or sometimes their entire career after graduation.

 

And ultimately Rory chose her own path to happiness over even vaster wealth. So Lorelai laid a good foundation in Rory, like I said she was a great mother overall, but she didn't really prepare Rory for the temptations of that wealth and the society that the Sr Gilmore's lived in, so at some point Rory was always going to be tempted to either do what she did in season 6 or something similar.

I may be slow today but was trying to figure out what Lorelai should have done to prepare Rory for the temptations of wealth and society, and can't think of anything.  I always felt it was more Emily and Richard's decision not be very involved in Rory's life until she started Chilton; no one ever mentioned them not being welcome in Stars Hollow.  Unless, of course, they were interfering in some way which it seemed happened almost every time they did visit. I guess I just assumed that they resisted any attempt Lorelai made to set boundaries over the years and that was why they so rarely saw each other.  It does seem completely believable that Rory was tempted by their lifestyle, and that it happened when she and her mother had a disagreement.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

That seems like a low bar in terms of parenting.

Like I said, I'm not nominating Liz for parent of the year.  But I don't think it's realistic at all to assume that Jess was able to turn himself around only because of the year and a half he spent with Luke and not at all because of his first 17 years when Liz was his only parent.  And I think Luke heavily implied this in Driving Miss Gilmore when he reassured Liz that Jess turned out okay.

 

I am unfamiliar with the GED process, but was there some reason why Jess could not have done a GED while living in Stars Hollow and not go back to the local school?

I'm not familiar with the GED process either, but if Jess had come up with such a plan and wanted to continue living at Luke's I assume that would have been up to Luke.  And no, I don't believe it was up to Luke to come up with an alternative plan after Jess broke their agreement by not graduating and refusing to go back to school.  Jess made that a moot point anyway by leaving the next day without saying goodbye or thanks. I still think it would have been good for Jess to go back and do another year, teach him some humility and take responsibility for his mistakes.

 

I'm sure it played a big part, but I tend to believe sometimes people have certain personality traits that are pretty set, regardless of circumstance.

I agree, which is just one reason why I hate the idea of even trying to judge how good of a parent someone is/was.  There are so many different factors and kids can have such different needs that it's really impossible to know exactly what made a difference and what didn't. 

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

She was of the "I've tried nothing, and am all out of ideas," school of parenting. 

But as far as we know this was one time when Jess was 17.  Luke mentioned helping Liz when she lost her apartment or was broke but apparently was never called on to help with Jess before.  I still think Liz deserves credit for getting Jess, who is admittedly intelligent and well-read, safely to the age of 17. We don't know enough about Jess's childhood to say for sure that she was a crappy mom for the entire 17 years or to say that Jess is intelligent and likes to read because he was well-cared for and read to as a young child. We have Jess's opinions, of course, but he likely can't remember and has no idea of all the work required to raise a child on your own.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

It's a small moment, but I find it telling that when Jess comes in during Nag Hammadi and Liz does that thing where she presses her forehead against his and goes on about positive energy bringing all her favorite men to her, if they DIDN'T have some sort of good relationship he would have called her out on her hypocrisy.

 

Also, Jess told Luke later that he didn't hate his mother.  Even though he came and was in the wedding mostly for Luke, I doubt he would have if he couldn't stand being around Liz at all.  And after the wedding he said he was good with his mom and gave both her and Luke a more permanent cell phone number.  Liz certainly wasn't the best mother, probably not even a good one, but I don't think she was terrible either.  I do think Liz did the best she could at the time, which is really all any parent can do.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

I disagree with that.  From everything we heard, Jess had a very unstable upbringing with a mostly indifferent parent.

The thing is, you can make an awful lot of mistakes and still provide a child with a foundation of love and support.  Especially since most of our personality is formed before we're 5 years old.  As long as Jess felt mostly loved and secure as a small child he likely had a good bond with Liz until he reached the age where his own personality was more fully formed.  And honestly knowing Jess I think if he hadn't had a bond with Liz he would have been out of there long before he turned 17.  Many kids have a hard time getting through the teen years even if they have two great parents.  Also, it seems to me an indifferent parent wouldn't have bothered to send her 17-year-old to his uncle in a small town where he'd be much less likely to get into the kind of trouble that could ruin his life than to just pretend she didn't know what he was doing in New York. 

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

Jess' problem was less that he didn't fit into the traditional high school tract, and more just extreme arrogance.  He seemed to think he was better than most people in the town, and for whatever reason, normal rules, like that you have to regularly attend school to graduate, didn't apply to him.

You've described Jess's problem perfectly.  It was his arrogance that not only kept him from graduating but also leaving without more discussion when Luke told him he had to go back to school or leave.  Sure, he's intelligent and  could have easily gotten a GED but he wasn't mature enough at that point to make an good decision, and certainly wasn't ready to be out in the world on his own.  I think what Jess needed to do was to suck it up and go back and repeat his senior year in Stars Hollow.  He had a place to live and a job, all he had to do was put in his time at school, save money and get himself into a better starting place. I think Jess's arrogance comes from a combination of intelligence, independence and insecurity.  He had to hit bottom on his own before he realized he had to change, to grow up. 

 

I think this might actually be my biggest UO--I don't think Jess is all that different in the later seasons. Calmer, and employed...but still Jess. Mostly I will say that we simply don't see him enough for me to accept that he is as different as a lot of the fandom seems to think. He has certainly grown up a little, but we don't know enough about him for me to have any sort of opinion on how different he is.

I agree with this--Jess is still the same stubborn, independent, intelligent person he always will be.  When he feels threatened he would likely revert to his old angry, arrogant mode until he got a handle on it.  Amy did a good job of writing him in season 6 as different but still the same.

 

My UO is agreeing that Liz was not a completely terrible person or parent, because there's no way Jess could have turned out as well as he did without a foundation of receiving love and support from his only parent.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

DOYLE [stands]: Now I'm Logan's journalistic Godfather, and I can't even get the punk to show up, never mind write a story.

RORY: Do you even know if he can write?

DOYLE: Oh, he can write. He's actually an excellent writer. How's that for God giving with both hands, huh? Every now and then, usually when he gets the flu or the clap, and can't party, he'll throw us a bone and write something. It's always good. Damn good. Stupid bastard.

I don't know, that conversation doesn't make him sound very focused.  It takes a lot more focus and discipline to learn to play an instrument than write an article, especially if you happen to be Mitchum Huntzberger's son.

[Netflix Revival: Spoilers and Speculation]

Now that makes me happy, anticipating the Stars Hollow Spring International Food Festival! Thanks!

 

Sam Duncan, 60s-70s, a hapless old diner owner. Day player. Will appear in part 2.

 Could there be a mid-life/stuck in my diner type crisis for Luke?  That might somewhat account for Jess's involvement.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

While it is true Lane wanted  to pursue a career in rock and roll, she didn't do much about it. She continued to live in her small Connecticut town and play in her band from high school.

But Lane did learn to play the drums against all odds and advertised for and successfully found a band to play with.  She was also the one pushing to keep the band together after Dave left and again when they needed to move forward at the end of season 5.  Not to mention everything txhorns79 mentions.  We didn't see Logan do anything nearly that focused (at least until he graduated), unless you count sinking yachts, pulling pranks and the Life and Death Brigade.

 

That said, I completely agree that Lorelai and Logan don't have that much in common beyond coming from a similar background.  I found it very annoying in season 7 when Logan tried to draw a parallel.  Lorelai was already successful on her own away from her parents at a much younger age than when Logan struck out on his own.

[All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love]

Yeah, I don't think we were supposed to imagine that they all had entirely unmentioned fertility problems.

Some people don't talk about those kinds of things though, especially after more than 30 years, so it is possible.  The other reason it worked well as a plot device were the stories we heard about Lorelai and Chris growing up together.  If one or both had siblings they presumably wouldn't have been as close.

[Gilmore Girls in the Media]

Despite being staunchly pro-Luke and moderately anti-Christopher I quite like the idea of fixing Christopher's story line by marooning him on an island with toddlers he has to raise while waiting for rescue.  It would be satisfying to see Chris deal with raising kids without the benefit of millions.  The addition of wealthy game hunters hunting Chris for sport seems a bit extreme, but I'm sure some would love it.  Most of the rest I disagree with, but yeah, the writer definitely needs a rewatch.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

Just because it is hard to believe doesn't it make it any less true.

We the viewers and Lorelai knew this was true; Luke did not.  And Lorelai had withheld facts about Christopher before and did act suspiciously.

 

Actually, he had. And about April. Just after Rory returned, she and Lorelai were in the diner chatting with Luke. Rory asked him what was new. After a rather shifty "why, what have you heard" and Rory's response to the negative, Luke said there was nothing new.

This happened after the fight about Christopher calling, not before. I also remember Rory asking Lorelai if she'd stepped in something after that conversation and Lorelai answered she had no idea.  Too bad Lorelai didn't take the time to go back and ask Luke when they were alone to see if something was going on with him.  Apparently she was too wrapped up in her reunion with Rory to take notice of what might going on with Luke.  Not to say it was okay for Luke to lie because of course it wasn't.  Nevertheless, the motivations for lying about seeing an ex and for not blurting out that you have a long lost daughter are completely different and not really comparable.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

I kind of agree, but I also think it's really about trust.

 

I think Luke did trust her until he found out she didn't tell him she spent the night drinking with Christopher.  Also, having to hear Chris go on about how Lorelai was meant to be with him and Luke was just for now would make it difficult not to see him as a threat even if he trusted Lorelai.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

Luke puts his hands on Dean first to try to push him away from the diner.  Dean then responds by trying to get away from him, and Luke grabs Dean around the waist.  A scuffle then ensues.

Okay, fair enough.  Although it looks to me like Dean walks right into Luke's hands when all he had to do was walk away from the diner.  I still think it often gets blown way out of proportion.  Also, all Luke is invested in is keeping Dean out of the diner when Rory is there because he was told they just broke up--he's not passing judgment on Dean or the situation.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

getting into a fistfight with Dean after his and Rory's S1 breakup.

But he didn't get into a fistfight.  I know Luke gets a lot of grief for this but if you actually bother to watch the scene you can see that Luke was only trying to turn Dean around and keep him from going into the diner.  Dean grabbed Luke first and I think once he did there wasn't much chance to back off.  Besides, why was Dean so intent in going to the place where Lorelai and Rory practically lived?  Afterwards it was obvious he didn't want to see her either.

 

I agree with the general sentiment, but I just can't get past what a child Luke is in that moment.

The two times I really hate Luke's behavior are Bop-It with Dean and playing basketball with Logan at Martha's Vineyard, and I  think you've nailed down what bugs me.

 

My UO is I really don't think Luke has anger management issues.  Sure, he gets angry but generally has good control even when he acts out physically (the one exception being when he threw that guy out of the diner on his knees).  I seriously doubt anyone with real anger management issues/violent tendencies would only kick the car of a guy he caught with his wife or only lay one punch on Christopher.  I think Luke is written more as the guy that seems on the edge, who maybe even wants people to think he would cross that line but is actually not at all impulsive and too responsible to actually cross it.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

I do agree that the amount of angry surly men seems off, but Lorelai clearly *likes* Luke's surlyness.

 

I like Luke's surliness also, I think because it often comes with a much needed shot of truth.  In fact, I've often thought without Luke (and Taylor) the show would have been way too light and fluffy to hold my interest the way it does.  And I agree that Luke and Lorelai's relationship seemed fine to me.  They had the kind of connection you see in an old married couple even before they got together.

 

I've noticed every so often people come onto this forum and interpret the conversation as bashing the show. But it's my understanding that we actually really LOVE it.

I really like many discussions here as well.  The only time it bothers me is when there's a lot of negativity directed at Amy.  Cause after all, if it wasn't for her creation in the first place we couldn't be here talking about it.

 

My uo is that the lane and Zach relationship made perfect sense.

 

I agree with all of your points and thank you for putting into words my feelings about Lane and Zach.  I don't think Zach ever really expected a girl like Lane to develop feelings for him but he took her seriously when she told him and used it to become a better person.

 

I think the nitpicking is a little excessive, especially on a show that's supposed to be funny and quirky and weird instead of completely realistic.

I agree that expecting this show to make sense completely misses the point and takes away a lot of its charm.  Yet it manages to ring true to me in so many ways--it just works better if you don't think too hard about the details.

[Funny moments - what are your favorites?]

I really love the scene in So Good Talk where Emily is abusing the flowers and Richard tries to talk some sense into her:

 

EMILY: You couldn’t wait to run over to that inn of hers for your secret clandestine meeting!

RICHARD: Well, how clandestine could it be? I just told you about it.

EMILY: I do not understand why you refuse to stand by me on this.

RICHARD: Why haven’t we gotten stools in here?

 

For some reason that random comment cracks me up.  And, of course:

RICHARD: And hopefully, with time, we will be able to convince her to come back and things will return to normal. However, if we simply cut her off, no contact whatsoever, then the odds of being able to get things back to the status quo are not very good at all. Don’t you agree? [Emily looks petulant.] I thought so. All right, now don’t worry. [He kisses her forehead.] I have everything under control.

EMILY [as he is leaving]: Of course you do. Because you’re the favorite.

 

I also love Richard's delivery of the lines about Luke towards  the end of You Jump, I Jump, Jack.  Especially the last sentence.

 

RICHARD: It happened to be a fruitful outing. I am going to assist him in franchising his diner.

EMILY: Richard! That hirsute lout is not capable of running a complex business!

RICHARD: Well, that’s obvious, Emily! That’s why he will have no significant role, he will be the frontman! We’ll shave him, stick his picture on the menus. The whole thing will, hopefully, bestow some credibility on him. At least then, if this insane relationship between him and Lorelai continues, we can legitimately take him to places like the club. At least, on holidays.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

And I agree that there's a bit of truth in your "fluffier" version as well.  I may well just be an old cynic.

 

You're right, Dusty, it certainly worked out for the poor maid.  I almost can't believe what a jerk Logan was and how spineless Rory was.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

I still insist that Lorelai missed E/R and insisting on meeting Logan that night was her way of going to FND without admitting to herself or others that this was a reconciliation.

I guess I see it more that after Lorelai made her point and got Emily to back off she decided to call the fight off sooner than she planned in order to be there when Logan was invited to the family dinner.  And I don't feel sorry for Lorelai at the dinner simply because she had to know exactly what kind of treatment she was in for when she decided to go.  The next week Lorelai had made her point, Emily got her pound of flesh and they went back to normal.  Even so, calling it a reconciliation is a bit of a stretch.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

But oddly, I blame Rory for all of it.

I can see that.  Although Lorelai had her chance later to come clean and still didn't.  I think it was completely unnecessary.

 

I'm not sure if your opinion is unpopular or not but I just finished watching that episode and I found that I entirely disagreed with her going back to friday night dinners just because she wanted to meet the boyfriend on the same night as her parents.

Lorelai met Logan at the vow renewal so it wasn't about that.  It was more about claiming her place in the family as Rory's mother.  She had already made her point to Emily by not coming back when demanded--it was probably just a matter of time anyway.

 

I'm pretty sure they didn't all go to the vow renewal in Luke's truck or it would have been discussed when Lorelai said Luke was bringing the truck around and to go back in.  They probably drove separately so Rory could go back to Yale after.  Either way, Lorelai knew everyone there and could have easily gotten a ride if she really needed one.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

Luke knew that Lorelai had shunned them for years without issue, and likely would have done so again if it came down to it.

I think he knew Lorelai wouldn't be able to shun them for long if Rory didn't.  And she wasn't.  

 

And then, nervously be all "Ooh, there's Chris at the vow renewal. WE DRANK ALL NIGHT AT HIS HOUSE...BUT THERE WAS NOTHING DIRTY GOING ON!!!" That is suspicious.

Not to mention that she actually said "I’m only telling you now because he’s here and it might come up, and I don’t want you to feel shanghaied."

 

My unpopular opinion is that I completely understand why Lorelai went back to Friday night dinner when Logan was invited.  It wasn't necessarily to spend time with Logan, but more that she needed to assert that she was as much a part of Rory's life as Emily and Richard.

 

I didn't think it was a big deal that Luke left Lorelai without cab fare or a ride home. Lorelai was with plenty of family at a big party.

I agree that it's a silly thing to hold against Luke.  He probably figured Rory would take her home since they drove separately.

[One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions]

I don't want the revival to happen because I have no faith at all in ASP. Especially since it looks like she'll probably have no one around her to say "no" (just like George Lucas for the prequels).

My unpopular opinion is that I do have faith in ASP to create a good sequel for the show.  She created the show and all the characters (albeit with support from others) and invested a great deal and time and energy in the show.  My guess is despite whatever circumstances led to her leaving in season 6, she didn't want to leave her creation on that note.  I mean, who would?  Maybe she actually welcomes the revival as a chance to try to make it all right--to the fans, the characters, and to herself.  Sure, I know it will be different.  But I'm more than willing to put up some awkwardness and change to see more of what ASP wanted for the series.

 

I second wanting to see life after Richard for Emily more than anything else.

I want to see this too, and think it has a lot of potential for creating conflict vs. need between Emily and Lorelai as well as Luke (assuming they're married now).

 

My second UO is that I'd actually like to see Christopher at some point, because one thing I really needed more closure about was his past/present with Lorelai and Rory.  I think it would great to see him own his shortcomings through most of Rory's childhood beyond whining about how much he missed, and/or actually offer some kind of support beyond telling Lorelai "hey I inherited a pile of money, is there anything Rory wants."

[Netflix Revival: Spoilers and Speculation]

I'm refusing to believe that Sookie will no longer be the chef until I find out otherwise.

 

Some of the  Stars Hollow townies could conceivably be needing senior care due to bad health.  If it involves Emily I would expect it to be more in a peripheral way (like maybe a friend) that makes her think about what could be in her future.  Given that Lorelai is her only daughter.