shron17
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On 9/15/2016 at 6:33 PM, Lady Calypso said:
And don't get me started on his major freak out over the rotten eggs from Easter and making Kirk stay up all hours to find every last one of them. Taylor knew how dedicated Kirk was to the town and he knew Kirk wouldn't rest until he made Taylor happy. It was also one of my favourite Kirk/Luke moments, as Luke really did help a sleep deprived Kirk from a raging Taylor.
Well, to be fair, Kirk didn't make the egg map as instructed so he could throw all the eggs away after the kids were done. I kind of like Taylor. I mean, he is egotistical and OCD but he seems to do a lot for Stars Hollow. And he so often gives the other characters someone to rant or throw wisecracks at, I don't think the show could be the same without him.
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2 hours ago, huahaha said:
Yeah, it made me sad a while back to see ASP gushing that Sutton Foster was the best actress she'd ever worked with, how she was spoiled because Sutton could "do anything," etc. Nobody sells Palladino dialogue like Lauren Graham. Without her, the cancellation bear comes and gets you.
As I recall ASP also said Sutton Foster willingly did whatever was asked of her. Maybe LG was a bit harder for ASP to work with as a writer/director. Although I agree, she's very good with the dialogue.
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4 hours ago, hippielamb said:
I agree. I can usually defend Lorelai on most things but that's the mother of Luke's child. She was out of line. Period. Just like Luke was out of line arguing with Chris about Rory at the vow renewal. As Anna would say, that's not cool.
I can agree with all of this, except I cut Luke more slack for arguing with Chris about Rory. While Luke should have kept his mouth shut, it was Chris who sat at their table and then followed Lorelai and Luke on his own. Also, Luke and Chris had met and Chris was being a jerk throughout the reception. Not really justified, but more understandable in my opinion.
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16 minutes ago, JaggedLilPill said:
Lorelai isn't allowed to meet April or have an input, but Luke has throughout the years had an input with Rory and acted completely inappropriate in certain situations
These are two completely different situations. Lorelai has known Rory since she was born; Luke found out about April less than a year ago and has been seeing her regularly for only a few months. No comparison, in my opinion.
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1 hour ago, RachelKM said:
I agree that Anna was difficult, unreasonable, and I believe throwing up any excuse because she never intended for Luke to be involved at all so she wanted any excuse to limit and control the contact he had. But I think Lorelai, especially after that confrontation but even before, would have been far less hurt if Luke was including her in HIS processing it and dealing with it. Even if he abided by the "no contact" rule and didn't have Lorelai with them when he spent time with April, he could ahve still discussed his thoughts and feelings with Lorelai.
Bottom line, Lorelai never should have gone to Anna on her own. She should have gone to Luke and said, "Okay, you involved me with the party. I am involved now and need to meet Anna." By going behind his back she disregarded any authority Luke had over his daughter and most likely compromised Anna's opinion of Luke. And made herself vulnerable to Anna's whims.
1 hour ago, RachelKM said:I realize that talking about things in general, let alone his feelings, wasn't Luke's strong suit. However, he needed to bring Lorelai in in some way, even if it was just voicing his frustration with Anna or telling Lorelai how his day with April went, something to make her feel he wasn't completely walling off and entire section of his life, and important one at that.
I don't think we ever saw Lorelai ask Luke how he was doing with it all and really listen to what he said. She tried to be supportive and gave him advice, but never tried to meet him where he was in the process. Jess asked how he was doing, but never Lorelai. When Luke talked about April to Lorelai, she mainly gave him advice and then looked hurt when he wasn't grateful. He did involve her with the birthday gift shopping and she made fun of him even though she knew he hated choosing gifts and was likely feeling vulnerable about April.
QuoteThat's very Luke, but its one more reason their relationship was a mess that year (and part of my reasoning why I don't think they are suited, but that's a different conversation).
I'm one of very few who actually feel that Luke had the right to build a relationship with his daughter in whatever way was comfortable and worked for him. In fact, I think he had an obligation to April and himself to be authentic in their new relationship. It's great that Lorelai already knew so much about raising Rory, but in my opinion, it was far more important that Luke find his own way as he learned to be a dad to April. And if he had included Lorelai more, I'm not sure she could have given him the space he needed. Also, it sounds a little like you are saying Lorelai isn't suited to be with any man who isn't willing to let his life revolve completely around her regardless of what he wants for himself. You may be right.
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5 hours ago, twoods said:
But Lorelai isn't introverted like Rory- she talks a mile a minute and converses with everyone. Plus, she had to make small talk daily at her job. I find it hard to believe that small talk would make her that unhappy- another inconsistency in the way the writers handled her. They would make her a chatterbox when the story needed it, or aloof at other times.
She also just broke off an engagement. I thought it made sense that she wanted a little peace and quiet and space from other people. You could see her tense up when they drove back into Stars Hollow and she knew she was going to have to talk about it. Lorelai was often a chatterbox to avoid talking about her feelings and consistently ran away from her problems rather than staying and trying to work things out. Probably because she didn't like to compromise, like Emily pointed out in season 7, and running away made it unnecessary.
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27 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:
The entire point of the fight was Lorelai having doubts over Luke loving her and his commitment to marry her given how he treated her during the past few months. The moment he was confronted with that, Luke basically chocked, completely failing to convince her of either, that's why she left. That's on Luke.
The things is, Lorelai never did confront him and tell him how she was feeling. Her feelings were all wrapped up in a story she told him about how they had to elope now, because now was the time, and Anna said it would be okay, and she liked the purple wallpaper, etc. etc. I don't think anyone should be expected to be a mind reader in a relationship, nor should they be expected to have an important relationship-changing conversation on demand when confronted by their fiancee at the end of the long, busy day.
32 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:Cool! That's nowhere near the same as taking someone's needs into account and trying to meet them halfaway.
So, was it your expectation that Luke had watched season 6 of Gilmore Girls and knew everything we knew about Lorelai's state of mind? How can he be expected to take her needs into account when she isn't clear about letting him know what they are?
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7 minutes ago, CalamityBoPeep said:
But yeah, since this show isn't the real world, all it does is piss the audience off, since Luke didn't perform his designated romance-hero-role. Him not chasing her actually is more realistic than anything that led up to that moment. I hate the way they were both twisted into plot props in season 6, so I guess I'll never understand the vitriol directed at Luke for "his" (more like "his pod-person self's") part of it. They were both destroyed, as characters, through the entirety of the season. Which is what makes it so damned painful.
My anger throughout this whole mess is, and always has been, firmly directed at the Palladinos.
I've always hated the typical romance type dramas and never rooted for a couple like this until LL. And I think you just explained why. Give me reality any day (but not reality shows!). But I don't blame it on the Palladinos because I actually think they tried to stay true to the characters while staying within the confines of whatever limitations they had at the time. The expectation that Luke should have chased her down bugs me much much more than anything Luke actually did. To me, that would be more controlling than romantic (what if she really did just want to walk away?), and Lorelai's ultimatum, including her declarations of love, always felt more manipulative than desperate to me.
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Quote
Oh, come on. Your fiancee is having a nervous breakdown if front of you and says, "I don't want talk about it" while clearly talking to you. You just go "Oh well, bye"?
Luke didn't say, "oh well bye" but kept talking to her. But for two people to have a conversation they both have to be receptive to the other one's point of view. I get that Lorelai was past that point by the time she went to the diner but since she'd been hiding from him all day that was on her for not going to him sooner. We never saw Luke refuse to talk to her about it.
46 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:How about by making the slightest attempt of not shooting down everything Lorelai is saying with no attempt to meet her halfaway? That's a thought. You don't even have to get physical to do it.
Yes, Luke shot down the idea of leaving to elope that minute, and he was unhappy that she went to talk to Anna without his knowledge. I don't blame him for either of those things. When Lorelai said now or never, he very honestly said "I can't just jump like that." He didn't say I don't want to marry you, he didn't say I don't love you any more. Why couldn't she meet him halfway at that point? Did she have to call all the shots?
46 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:While we're at it: what's wrong with "you're not leaving until we talk this out"?Hell, I'm sure Lorelai would have appreciated because it would have meant that Luke actually gave a damn about their relationship. Even her "I gotta go" was halfhearted; you can see her lingering as thought to give Luke a chance of talking her out of it.
Why? Trying to consider the needs of the other person for a change is a good way of not losing the person you claim to love
Luke listened to Lorelai and tried to base his response on what she said, and was trying to consider what he knew of her needs. I don't think he was at a place where he realized if she walked away their relationship was over. If she really didn't want to walk away when she said "I gotta go" then why did she? Is Lorelai so insecure/egotistical that she needs someone to plead with her to stay when she says she has to go? If instead of "I gotta go" Lorelai gave him back the ring and or told him it was over I think his reaction would have been different, and she would have seen that he did give a damn about their relationship. It made sense to me that from Luke's point of view it would be better to talk to her after she calmed down.
ETA I always felt like Lorelai's "I gotta go" was half-hearted because she'd realized if she stood by saying now or never, leaving meant they were done and she wasn't sure she was ready to to do that. Maybe that's why she didn't state it or give him back the ring?
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8 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:
Regardless, in my heart, I feel Luke accepted the risk of losing her for good when he let her walk away obviously in major distress without even attempting to meet her halfaway. Don't get me wrong, if he wasn't ready, I don't think he should have went along with the wedding. It was good that he stood his ground. But this was the time for a MAJOR sit down in order to clear the air and decide what next.
But Luke wanted to talk and Lorelai shot down that idea before they even got outside!
QuoteLORELAI: Yes, now is the right time. It's the best time because it's now!
LUKE: Come on. [Opens the door]
LORELAI: Your car or mine?
LUKE: Lorelai, let's just talk this through.
LORELAI: No I don’t wanna talk, all we've done for months is talk. I want to do. I want to go.
LUKE: We can't just take off and get married.I don't understand how Luke can be expected to stop her from walking away, let alone why. Does Lorelai not have free will? Was he supposed to grab her arm and say no, you're not leaving until we talk this out? I have no doubt Lorelai felt justified by saying now or never, but it was also her version of my way or the highway. Without physically stopping her, I don't see what choice Luke had other than going with her to elope or letting her walk away. And that's how she wanted it. Sure, I guess she's entitled to end their relationship without allowing him any say and then sleeping with her ex, but I don't think it's right. Also, I think the whole debate about why she didn't say it's over or give him back the ring boils down to the question of whether Luke would have let her walk away after ending the relationship, since he obviously didn't think she had the next day.
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I watched Double Date last night. Speaking of MM's physical comedy, I loved the bit where she calls Jackson to set up a date while she waves the spoon around with her other hand. It's the little things. And Lorelai/Mrs. Kim scenes are always good.
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9 hours ago, CJRocks said:
I've always been bugged by something about Anna. Wasn't she supposed to be from Stars Hollow? When the truth about April first comes out, don't the other townies talk about her and how pretty she was? Like she grew up there? Then all of a sudden, she has to move to New Mexico, and she talks about growing up THERE? Am I mixed up, or was that a continuity issue?
That bugged me too. I blame it on the season 7 writers. Continuity is always an issue but that seemed like a pretty big shift.
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Ditto on the Gypsy love.
In particular, this line which takes the edge off of all those times a male mechanic made me feel like an idiot.
QuoteGYPSY: Guys are stupid.
LUKE: What?
GYPSY: You strip your gears, you ride your brakes, and if we don’t laugh after we make a joke, you think we’re serious.Also, can't read about Dean giving Rory her car without giving this exchange some love. Ed's delivery was perfect.
QuoteRICHARD: How tall are you?
DEAN: Why, you wanna dance?
RICHARD: No, thank you. I appreciate the offer though.-
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14 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:
And speaking of, I actually have an issue with Lorelai giving Christopher so much slack in not being in Rory's life much. I would think that she would create stricter rules with him and try harder at getting Christopher to be in his daughter's life. Yet, she has seemed unaware of how little he is involved and she allows him to just pop back in whatever. Ok, good for Rory that she gets to see her dad twice or three times a year. Good that she tries to keep Rory's hopes down. But I don't think she does enough in calling him out on it, or protecting her daughter from this flake. She just says her quips and smiles, and then falls back in love with him.
So, just realized how closely these two relationships are entwined in Lorelai's mind. She gives Christopher slack with Rory because she still wants the possibility of a romantic relationship with him and she keeps allowing herself to fall back in love with Christopher so easily because he's Rory's father which should (in theory at least) automatically reduce any risk her relationships have for Rory.
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Re: similarities between Tristan and Logan, I agree, except that the one significant difference was Logan was in line for a prime spot in his family's newspaper empire. Naturally since Rory was in college and planning to be a journalist this made him more attractive. I'm not saying Rory dated him because of that, but it seemed to make her more interested and more motivated to get to know him. Also, Logan was carefully written as just moral enough to be acceptable to someone like Rory. Up until about season 6 I was expecting her to find out Logan was doing something she found unacceptable (cheating on and/or selling exams? plagiarizing papers?).
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11 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:
I am a step parent and I really disliked Luke feeling entitled to tell Christopher off at the vow renewal. Rule number one, *you just shut up, he is her father like it or not. It wasn't Luke's business. Rory was also in college which made it more creepy, and it felt contrived.
I agree with your rule, but there are two exceptions in this case. Christopher never ever played a parental role in Rory's life--through his own choice he spoke to her on the phone maybe once a week and saw her 1-2 times a year throughout nearly all of her childhood. For this reason I don't think he's owed the same respect as someone who is consistently and actively involved in their child's life. Also, Luke spoke up only in response to Chris's claim that whatever went on with Rory was none of Luke's business. I think Chris was way out of line saying that, especially since his daughter asked him only months before to stay out of her mom's relationship. Luke was out of line with his response but never should have had to defend why he was there and cared about what was going on with Rory. I always wish Lorelai could have somehow stepped in and stopped the conversation as she was the only one with any right to have an opinion on Rory's behavior.
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On 8/16/2016 at 4:31 PM, Smad said:
In S1 they seem to barely have a relationship
Although their relationship leaves a lot to the imagination, I wouldn't go that far. There are quite a few small moments sprinkled throughout the background in season 1 to tell us Luke has a consistent role in Rory's life by making sure she's fed, nagging about what she eats, recognizing her birthday, etc. I don't see him as a surrogate father either, but there were times even in earlier seasons when it felt like the three of them had a surrogate family relationship.
32 minutes ago, Aloeonatable said:I also think that Lorelai never let anyone, man or woman, including Chris's fiancee Sherry, become a parent to Rory.
I think it was wise not to want anyone she or Chris dated act like a parent to Rory, especially given Rory was 16. Even if either got married, becoming a step-parent to a 16-year-old is more like being a friend than actual parenting.
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2 hours ago, Kohola3 said:
Not saying their breakup wasn't in the cards but she sure got over him in a hot minute. Must have been all of gold jewelry and witty conversation. Not a bit shallow, our Rory.
I think their breakup came out of Dean's realization that he didn't belong there because Rory was more comfortable now at her grandparents and with people from Yale. They had both been struggling to put the time and effort into their relationship even though it didn't fit into either of their present-day lives. I always thought Rory didn't protest or go after him because she knew he was right.
11 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:He was used to his father's lawyers getting him out of scrapes. I doubt he ever apologized or took responsibility for his actions.
One of the biggest differences between Logan and original recipe Rory was that she generally held herself responsible for her actions whether it was breaking Paris's project, being a bad friend to Lane, missing her mom's birthday, taking food from the cafeteria without paying for it, etc. etc.
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4 hours ago, junienmomo said:
True, and like you said earlier, the contrived reason was beyond a rational person's thinking capacity. That was one of those moments when I was yelling at the TV, telling Lorelai how to achieve the goal of meeting Logan without being treated like crap by Emily.
But the goal wasn't to meet Logan--Lorelai had already met him. The goal was to be present for the first family dinner that included Rory's boyfriend. And the "you and me we're done moment" wasn't necessarily about cutting Emily out of her life forever but proving that she could and would.
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2 hours ago, Kohola3 said:
Lord, yes. How long did that last, a few days? And meeting Logan was such a contrivance. There were a hundred other ways she could have met him. Of course, without the dinner and petty theft we wouldn't have immediately known what a jerk he was.
It was like 2 weeks. Though while short, I think Lorelai still got her point across. Emily did stay out of their relationship after that and even tried to buy them a house. I understood why Lorelai wanted so badly to be at that dinner, given her relationship with her parents and with Rory. In part because she felt she needed to protect Rory from their meddling, which she tried to do.
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4 hours ago, Taryn74 said:
Wow, that's really great insight. Do you think Emily assumed Lorelai was "settling" for Luke because Lorelai believed Chris was finally off-limits for good? (And I only mean "settling" in the sense that she would have been "settling" for anyone who wasn't Chris....) I've never really thought of Emily as having good intentions in that scene (LOL) but you may be right.
I don't know, I think Emily thought she had good intentions. But she's always decided what was best for Lorelai based her version of Lorelai rather than the person Lorelai really is.
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5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:
Isn't it that the scene where after Marty tells Rory about learning his uncle was his dad that he asks Rory how her summer went and she answers 'we so should have started with me' or something like that? As if she had a worse summer? Maybe I'm remembering wrong.
I took this to mean that while Rory felt like she had very eventful summer, it was nothing compared to Marty's.
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9 hours ago, katha said:
I think this harkens back to Rory being so insecure about how to deal at Yale, away from Lorelai and SH and the support systems there. So she was already flailing on her own, with the demands of college, with her problems socializing and asserting herself in this new environment. And she was lonely. So she latched on to Logan as her next security blanket and as someone who would give her purpose and structure and affection and emotional support, no matter that he wasn't perhaps the best person for that.
That is a very good point. Logan does get blamed for many things Rory totally did to herself, and he was very supportive of her in his own way. Even though I don't care for him so much, Rory did grow a lot in strength and confidence while dating him, and I imagine their relationship may have been one she needed to experience on her way to figuring out who she was. I liked Marty but they were too similar to offer as much opportunity for growth. Even professionally, it was no accident that who Logan's family was set the stage for a fulfilling end of series career dilemma/decision for Rory. At least latching onto Logan wasn't as bad as trying to re-create Dean and Rory, the high school years.
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13 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:
And then Rory essentially did the same thing to Jess (again with Logan) in Season 6 "Let Me Hear Your Balalaikas Ringing Out." So, apparently Rory didn't learn from her mistake or she's so self-involved it never registered with her that what she did was wrong.
It's interesting that both times she did it for Logan, not all that surprising since after a certain point (?) Rory was always scurrying around trying to get Logan to like her. I didn't realize how much I was starting to dislike her until she went to Logan in BIAG with her I'm a girlfriend girl speech. But just when she was finally likable again, she let Logan talk her into being her boyfriend, apparently not realizing that just because he insisted he could be her boyfriend didn't make him a good choice for her.
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Lorelai Gilmore: The 10(+) Things I Hate About You
in Gilmore Girls
Yes, but you're comparing creating an entire show to acting one part on a new but already created show. I believe LG attempted to create a show with a role for her that didn't even make it out of the gate.