amensisterfriend

If ASP were here, she would say that we're just interpreting the Melissa McCarthy situation all wrong and focusing on totally the wrong things and, by the way, why are we not smart enough to GET her creative genius and her awesome taste in hats?! ;) Seriously, based on her history of prickly defensiveness and general "the buck stops...THERE!" policy of absolving herself of responsibility for conflicts she finds herself mired in or for aspects of the show that cause consternation among many fans, I'm not surprised to read that she's blaming Netflix for a lower key LL wedding. (Though, like many, I thought that happened to work out better anyway---it's kind of funny that even the very few things I liked about the revival seem to have come about by default or DESPITE ASP rather than because of her!) The ratings were solid enough for Netflix to probably consider continuing the series anyway, which would be awesome for those who loved it but a vaguely terrifying prospect for those of us who feel the revival tainted our love for many of these characters and are skeptical about ASP's ability or desire to give us a more enjoyable product the next time around.

5. Piper/Awakened/A terminal disease, Oroya Fever 6. Phoebe/Morality Bites/ Incinerated in the future for killing Cal Greene We're down to just two!!! And if anyone's come up with any ideas as to what to do next, please don't be shy :) Maybe time travel episodes...? (There are more that involve at least a little time travel than I'd expected!) Did we already do that?! My memory is a sieve, as you guys well know by now :)

You guys, I seriously have a problem. I've done literally nothing but mainline this show. I'm already at the end of S4 and would be even further along if I hadn't had to (yes, HAD to!) rewatch some of my favorite scenes at least a few times before moving on to the next episode. I'm not even that huge a sitcom fan in general, but this is already one of my very favorite shows. I love literally every character and their relationships with one another---and naturally I'm including Eddie here :) Roz took a little while to grow on me, but now I adore her and think she's actually a really layered, vibrant character. I love the dialogue, the therapy that's both hilarious and insightful, the subtle but powerful warmth and heart, and even find the plotting really strong. I knew a few things going in (like that Roz gets pregnant at some point and that my beloved Niles and Daphne do eventually get together, though I don't know when or how), but this is the kind of show you can enjoy even after you already know what happens---it's the how, not the what, that's so addictive and endlessly entertaining :) I'm confessing this here because people here are more likely to understand or at least less likely to judge: I just bought the ENTIRE series on DVD! This is despite 1) being sadly broke and 2) knowing full well that I can keep watching the entire series for free on Amazon Prime. I just 'needed' the DVDs somehow ;) I've always been one of those old fogies who far prefers to watch shows on my TV than on my computer. Plus, my mom is having major surgery in a couple of weeks, and I have to stay with her for the next month or so while she recovers, so suffice it to say that we will BOTH need the mood boost that this show so perfectly provides!

Nosleepforme, we can agree t disagree on all of the above, but my new goal is to find one Angel-related opinion on which we agree :) I can usually find at least a little common ground with any fellow TV fan, so I'm excited to find something---maybe we have a few favorite episodes in common? A few LEAST favorite episodes in common?! I do agree that end-of-S3 St. Cordy robs the character of the sharpness that made her so distinct (though I still don't think she comes off anywhere near the 'precious and super cutesy wittle girl' that Amy Acker's Fred is). Part of me wonders if I'm too blinded by my dislike of Cordelia's S3 hair to objectively assess the character, though :) Peaceout, I'm excited to hear your overall review of S4 and your thoughts on S5! S5 felt like a somewhat different show to me in many ways, so I'm always curious to see how new viewers perceive that final season.

I was never a big Cheers fan, so for some reason I never gave this show a chance. It's a huge mistake that I'm currently making up for! Every year at around this time, I seem to discover a couple of shows that I overlooked at the time and proceed to fall madly in love with, and this year Frasier is that show! What were people's favorite seasons, episodes, characters and relationships?! I'm only a few seasons in and already love Niles/Daphne way more than I want to :) I'm obsessed with the relationship between Niles and Frasier and their relationships with their father. I adore Daphne and how genuinely (as opposed to obnoxiously!) quirky/different, spirited and independent she is. Some episodes are funnier than others, but I can't say there are any I've disliked, which is rare for me :) I do like that Frasier and Martin's relationship is already a little less contentious now than it was in S1. I think what I love best about the show is that its moments of sweetness and poignancy feels so earned and natural rather than tacked on and saccharine. There's so much wit, warmth and charm, and Frasier's role as a therapist allows for some surprisingly sharp, resonant psychological insight. Mostly it just makes me feel good, which is what I need these days and is a quality that a lot of current shows seem to be lacking!

I like Lane well enough---she was never a particularly well-defined or compelling character to me, but she was kind and had a certain tendency to be overly enthusiastic/passionate which I relate to! I can totally see why many love her. I think I came to love her scenes less primarily because I have this irrational dislike of Zach, but that's not Lane's fault :) YES! This. Now that I think about it, their parent/child relationship may have been the best depicted on the show--there were complex conflicts during which I actually understood where both were coming from just as I could see why each would see the other as wrong. And, as you pointed out, there was actually clear and consistent progress after Lane and Mama Kim hit their 'bottom' in mid-S4/S5. They weren't suddenly idyllic and free of any tension, but there was actual growth in their relationship as opposed the 'throw in a conflict but then revert everything to exactly the same without either character learning or growing or even pretending to change in any way' thing she favored with Lorelai/Rory and the exasperating, exhausting "two steps forward, five steps back---usually by the end of the same episode" dance she did with Emily/Lorelai. Mama Kim was always one of my very favorite minor characters. Like most GG characters, I'm not sure I'd like to be in her company much in real life, but I found her really smart, entertaining, amusing, and even sympathetic and touching sometimes.

Oh, and I totally forgot about the UO that I initially came here to vent! I think ASP is so dreadful when it comes to depicting anything related to finances, socioeconomic class etc. that I honestly wish she had stopped even trying. I sort of wish she'd pretended most of these characters are of more or less the same 'class' and that money wasn't a particular issue throughout the series. (I know that sounds bizarre but, if you think about it, many series actually ignore socioeconomic class differences, practical financial concerns, etc.) I realize that would be taking away a fairly major part of GG, but for me it was a poorly done aspect of the show that I wouldn't miss. You could certainly have a lot of tension between Lorelai and her parents without it being in any way related to class. (Even lots of NON-rich people resent their parents for various reasons unrelated to debutante balls, ASP!) As I've rambled elsewhere, many of ASP's weirdly bitter ideas about class difference and general "the rich are fundamentally DIFFERENT from the rest of us!" seem to hail directly from Regency-era England and seem so unrelatably exaggerated for most of us living in this century who know and interact with people of all different backgrounds and levels of financial success. Not to mention increasingly tone deaf and in poor taste these days---for instance, don't get me started on the running 'joke' about how Emily treats her maids. She seemed to fall into stale, eye-rolling cliches: nearly every rich person is super haughty, snotty, materialistic, carefree but frivolous and lacking real depth! Nearly every middle class/working class guy (Luke, Jess, Jackson, even Marty) is cranky and kind of bitter but with a heart of gold! But the worst was the wild inconsistency regarding how money does or doesn't generate stress, open or block various opportunities, etc: Lorelai and Rory would give lip service to feeling financially strapped a couple times per season, but outside of Lorelai once cutting coupons (*GASP*---the horror, you guys!!!) and Rory working, like, one freaking shift at a card swiping job (during which she whined over the phone in lieu of doing said job anyway), they were always able to dress, eat, buy elaborate gifts and just generally live like people who were very financially secure. (Plus, their worries never exactly elicited much sympathy from me given that Emily, Richard, Christopher, Logan etc. were all gazillionaires ready to throw money their way at any time. Even Luke seemed to have SEVERAL thousands of dollars on hand to loan to friends without expectation of repayment, because in ASP's world we ALL have savings accounts like that, lol.) A dramedy about how class differences can cause tension, misunderstandings and even inform certain aspects of our personalities could have been interesting, but for me ASP just has too many outdated, exaggerated and inaccurate/inconsistent notions of that stuff to have pulled it off. The list of stuff she DOES pull off really well is actually depressingly short, IMO...I think I'm starting to agree more and more with the UO that aside from some surface cleverness (some of which isn't even all that clever, just spoken rapidly!), ASP is just not that great a writer. (Or director, showrunner or selector of hats...)

Yeah, I think his acting ranges from mediocre to worse than mediocre. I actually think SP is more to blame for my not liking Luke or Luke/Lorelai than the writing (though the writing is certainly not blameless there, lol!) As others have said, even by the usual slightly over the top GG standards, SP's performance seems devoid of any nuance to me. He can't seem to rein himself in, and lord knows ASP is not known for her ability to rein in either her actors or herself ;) To me it's especially important to be able to give a nuanced, slightly more restrained performance when you're playing a character like Luke, because there's a thin, tricky line between 'lovably grump curmudgeon with heart of gold' and 'guy who legitimately seems to have an anger management problem, issues controlling his temper and some sort of mood disorder that requires treatment.' SP goes so over the top with some of Luke's temper tantrums and scenes where he's angry, jealous, or even just exasperated that it makes it really hard for me to like and sympathize with the character. And instead of seeming like he's playfully sparring with Lorelai, he too often comes across as very genuinely angry, annoyed and baffled by her. Some of the writing for Luke would be problematic for me no matter who played him, but overall I would like him and his relationship with Lorelai more if played by a different actor, especially one who LG seemed to have chemistry with. Obviously I am in an extreme minority here, but at least I'm in the right thread :)

Can I give you an 'amen, sister friend'?! :) What do you guys want to play next???

I'll go against 29 too, so we can move on to our final three! 5. Piper/Awakened/A terminal disease, Oroya Fever 6. Phoebe/Morality Bites/ Incinerated in the future for killing Cal Greene 9. Prue/All Hell Breaks Loose/ Blasted through a wall by Shax My vote: 9, but all three of these are very memorable for me!

I love her! As introverted as she is on the surface, the actress (and occasionally the scripts) conveyed emotional depth to me, and she came off as a really intelligent, soothing and compassionate yet inwardly anxious character. She and Moseley may be my favorite romance on the show...and they were never even together :) Other random UOs from rewatching some episodes: I like S5 a lot more than most people do and S1 a lot less than most people do. I liked Lord Merton but wish Isobel had ended the series single and happy about it. Overall this show consists of great individual scenes and moments for me---there are very few episodes that I have the patience to watch from beginning to end while I rewatch. As much as almost every episode has scenes that make it worth rewatching for me, nearly every one also has scenes that have me hitting the fast forward button. Like many people, I loathed Carson/Hughes' S6 storyline to the point where it makes me enjoy their earlier scenes less than I used to, but here's the unpopular part: I really don't think turning out to be such an obliviously selfish, sexist, somewhat autocratic husband was especially out of character for Carson, especially given the era and what we saw of his personality throughout the show. I would MUCH rather Mary have ended up with Blake than Henry. I have this weird soft spot for Blake :) I like the sides of Mary that Matthew usually brought out, but I didn't think Matthew was a well-defined, developed or interesting character in his own right. I feel like the actress who played Rose would have been great at projecting the warmth, kindness, idealism, rebelliousness, intense emotion, vibrancy etc. that we were (I think!) supposed to get from Sybil. The actress who played Sybil would have worked for me as more of a haughty, detached character, but as Sybil she just didn't connect with me at all. I found Tom more likable in the seasons following Sybil's death than I did through most of S2 and S3. The more I rewatch, the less I get Coral. Even her accent and strange way of speaking baffles me ;) I feel like in S1 she was sharper, a little more pragmatic, shrewd and scheming and borderline manipulative. In many other seasons, she seems sweeter and more open but just kind of...spaced out?! I feel like we were supposed to think she was actually a whole lot smarter, more insightful and calm/cool/collected than Robert (and most people are, lol), but somehow I had trouble grasping her real thoughts and feelings on things and who she was supposed to be. Speaking of which, I actually like Robert. At least I'm in the right thread :) In real life, I wouldn't, but as a character---and especially one of that era---he worked for me. He felt like a realistic product of his time and lifestyle and, unlike many DA characters, a consistently depicted character with both strengths and flaws. Similarly, now that I'm mostly recovered from her actions in S6, I've swung back around to liking Mary. Again, she's not someone I'd like in real life...at all :) But I do find her a pretty layered and interesting character and, like her father, a realistic product of her era and status. I'll never like the sides of each other that Mary and Edith bring out and find most of Mary's love life a bore, but I enjoy her around other members of the family, Tom and especially Anna.

Now I want to know which 10-15 episodes are people's go to favorites! The Pylea arc is endlessly rewatchable for me :) When we first met Fred in Pylea, I hoped maybe based on the trauma she suffered and the way she was introduced that she'd be a character with legitimate long-term emotional and psychological issues, which could have made for some interesting, relatable (to me!) and touching TV. Outside of maybe her shrub talking in S3 and that one 'see, look, Fred can be an angry badass too!' episode in S4 (trying to avoid details here for obvious reasons), she was just presented as cutely quirky and almost sickeningly 'adorable.'

5. Piper/Awakened/A terminal disease, Oroya Fever 6. Phoebe/Morality Bites/ Incinerated in the future for killing Cal Greene 9. Prue/All Hell Breaks Loose/ Blasted through a wall by Shax 29. Phoebe/Kill Billie 2/ Killed after the manor exploded Awww, we're all in happy harmony :) 10 is history and the next round is open! We're still voting against just one.

The above two posts are so validating for me :) I tried really, really hard to like Fred, and had almost convinced myself to during my last rewatch. I love introverted 'geeks', so she should be my favorite, but she's so painfully cutesy, precious, self-consciously 'adorable' and has that wide-eyed, artificially childlike, "gosh golly, ME? you all think I'm this super special?!" schtick that Whedon tends to resort to with one of his female characters per series. I know the term Mary Sue is grossly overused, but Fred is the quintessential example of one to me. Add in the fact that I'm allergic to Amy Acker---that voice, her line deliveries, did I mention that VOICE----and Fred's absence is one of many reasons why S1 is my favorite. I actually wish neither Gunn nor Wesley had fallen for her, but that's probably better off in the UO thread. I'm torn about Cordy-Angel---in many ways I see them as a much better, happier match than the angst-drenched Buffy/Angel were, but I also often find myself agreeing that the sudden romantic feelings between them felt a little forced and that they're more naturally suited as friends. In many ways I would have preferred Cordelia with Doyle or (*whispers*) Wesley. I have dreadful taste. :) I'm so curious what you'll think of S4, peaceout! As others have said, it tends to be a VERY polarizing season :) It's my personal least favorite, but that's probably because I'm just not as big a fan of Whedon's darker, more heavily serialized storytelling in general. I think my personal season order would currently go S1, S5, S2, S3 and S4, but again, it varies a lot depending on my mood. If I'm in the mood for Wes/Cordy/Gunn bonding and not feeling like I can deal with a heavy dose of Fred, I might prefer S2 to S5 despite my misgivings about the lengthy Darla stuff and Angel's estrangement from the group.

I'll go against 10 as well!

We're down to our final five! Just vote for the one you want eliminated... 5. Piper/Awakened/A terminal disease, Oroya Fever 6. Phoebe/Morality Bites/ Incinerated in the future for killing Cal Greene 9. Prue/All Hell Breaks Loose/ Blasted through a wall by Shax 10. Piper/Saving Private Leo/Piper was stabbed by Leo's ex Army buddies, then with the help of Phoebe and Paige, she recited the ghost vanquishing spell 29. Phoebe/Kill Billie 2/ Killed after the manor exploded

This is tough, but I'll go against 7!

Oh, fun, a new convert!!! Welcome, peaceout! Me too!!! At this stage it's probably my all time favorite Whedon season of anything ever (that includes all of BtVS, Firefly etc) and one of my favorite seasons of any TV show in general. A lot of the online fans I know tend to view S1 as the worst season of AtS, but it's just sheer TV bliss for me. As someone who tends not to love Whedon's longer and denser "arcs" as much (I do in theory, but in practice I nearly always prefer standalones!), I have mixed feelings about the more arc-heavy S2-S4 and just find this first season has so many individual episodes that I can watch over and over without tiring of them. I actually love Cordelia this season: she clearly grows and evolves from her time on BTVS but is still so uniquely, recognizably Cordy to me (I can't always say the same as the series progresses!) I love both Doyle and S1 Wesley and their dynamics with both Angel and Cordelia so much. I agree that Doyle and Wesley have very different personalities and energies, but they both add a lot in their own ways. (One unpopular opinion is that I far prefer S1/S2 Wesley to what we see later on in the series, but I don't want to spoil our new viewer by getting into specifics!) I get both sides of the Kate debate. I ultimately like her blend of toughness and vulnerability and how she adds a very different female energy from Cordelia, but she can definitely be challenging to like sometimes :) Still one of my favorite pilots of any series and maybe one of my most beloved and rewatched AtS episodes, though I say that about A LOT of episodes :) I love these too, though I definitely have to be in a certain angst-craving mood to enjoy I Will Remember You :) Did you like the S1 finale? It's one of my very favorite episodes of the series, maybe even my VERY favorite. I'm guessing by your comments that overall you preferred S1 to S2...? I can't wait to see how you end up feeling about S3! (...and S4 and S5, of course!)

5. Piper/Awakened/A terminal disease, Oroya Fever 6. Phoebe/Morality Bites/ Incinerated in the future for killing Cal Greene 7. Piper/Coyote Piper/Killed (stabbed) by Prue in order to get a spirit out of her body 9. Prue/All Hell Breaks Loose/ Blasted through a wall by Shax 10. Piper/Saving Private Leo/Piper was stabbed by Leo's ex Army buddies, then with the help of Phoebe and Paige, she recited the ghost vanquishing spell 29. Phoebe/Kill Billie 2/ Killed after the manor exploded I'll go against 23 and 27 as well, and those two are history! The next round is open, and we're down to voting against just ONE :)

I've always felt like LG is actually kind of overrated as an actress. I think she was a very good fit for this particular role, but in every other role I either find her performance really unmemorable or so Lorelai-esque that it makes me think she has really limited range. And, yes, she is so annoying in talk shows! It's like she's trying SO very hard to be cutesy and adorable and comes across as weirdly manic and a little ditzy and...oh, wow, maybe LG *IS* very similar to Lorelai! ;)

So I'm rewatching S2 for the first time in ages and, wow, I'd actually forgotten just how much I adore this season of television. That's probably not all that unpopular, though---I think a lot of people I know love S2 and would even name it as a favorite...?! So I'll get to the unpopular part: I LOVE Roadkill. It's one of my go to, could-watch-it-over-and-over episodes. Even now that I obviously know the twist, there's so much I love about this episode: the acting, the overall atmosphere and feel, the fact that I'm a total sucker for ghost stories in general and 'what if the dead don't know they're dead?!' premises in particular :) I know many think Dean is too harsh in this episode, but I actually think he's got a few great moments here and get where he's coming from. A couple more S2 episodes I almost never hear mentioned among popular favorites but which I'm totally obsessed with: Crossroad Blues (such rich, fascinating ideas, such perfect tone/atmosphere), All Hell Breaks Loose (yes, even the first part!) and Heart. Mentioning Heart leads to my UO that I thought Sam had more chemistry/potential with Madison than anyone else throughout the series. Then again, I also hold the UO that my favorite pairing for Dean would be Dean/Tessa, so clearly I have bizarre taste when it comes to these things! Oh, and the ultimate S2 UO: I don't dislike Jo. She's not a special favorite, but I like the actress and am generally fine with her more-limited-than-I'd-remembered presence this season :) Even my least favorite S2 episodes have some scenes that make them well worth rewatching. I totally recommend a large dose of S2 to anyone else who starts to feel disillusioned with recent seasons and needs a reminder as to why some of us fell for this show in the first place!

You should! AS-P isn't exactly a stickler for timelines, continuity or realism in general, so I feel like that gives fanfic writers license to be flexible when it comes to those things as well :) Plus, I can actually see Marty there---aside from maybe Brian, Marty is definitely the character most likely to be into geeky fandom conventions...and, coming from me, that's a compliment!

I thought Keith and Harmony had chemistry too! And the ethical murkiness surrounding their relationship fit in with the show's themes and overall feel. As someone who also idealized my dad sometimes at Veronica's age (and sometimes still does at a much, much older age, haha), I totally got Veronica's reaction to their affair, though. I defend Veronica less than most do, but in that case I got why she was upset even if she technically had no right to be. Speaking of S3, I like this season SO much more than I did initially! And I still hold the supreme UO of genuinely liking Piz and Piz/Veronica. People have made great arguments about how why Veronica and Logan are a better fit given how screwed up/complex they and their worlds can be, and I don't disagree. I'll also readily concede that Veronica and Logan have powerful chemistry. I just find their nonstop drama exhausting to watch and borderline toxic. And she seemed genuinely happy with Piz, though maybe we weren't supposed to see it that way. As far as non-Logan relationships go, I also FAR prefer Pi/Veronica to Duncan/Veronica. It's weird, because S2 and S3 have gotten even better for me with rewatch while S1 gets a little worse...? I think it's that I initially declared S1 pretty much my favorite season of any show ever, so there was no way it could continue living up to those lofty standards. Also, I have the UO of finding Lilly Kane supremely annoying and not especially enjoying her friendship with Veronica at all, so that kind of interferes with my ability to love parts of S1.

5. Piper/Awakened/A terminal disease, Oroya Fever 6. Phoebe/Morality Bites/ Incinerated in the future for killing Cal Greene 7. Piper/Coyote Piper/Killed (stabbed) by Prue in order to get a spirit out of her body 9. Prue/All Hell Breaks Loose/ Blasted through a wall by Shax 10. Piper/Saving Private Leo/Piper was stabbed by Leo's ex Army buddies, then with the help of Phoebe and Paige, she recited the ghost vanquishing spell 23. Paige/Styx Feet Under/In a change of events, she was killed by a demon 27. Piper/Seven Year Witch/Put in a coma by a group of demons 29. Phoebe/Kill Billie 2/ Killed after the manor exploded 24 and 25 are history, and the next round is open! We're still voting against two :)

I'll vote against 17 and 21 too, so those are our latest casualties! The next round is open, and we're still voting against two :) 5. Piper/Awakened/A terminal disease, Oroya Fever 6. Phoebe/Morality Bites/ Incinerated in the future for killing Cal Greene 7. Piper/Coyote Piper/Killed (stabbed) by Prue in order to get a spirit out of her body 9. Prue/All Hell Breaks Loose/ Blasted through a wall by Shax 10. Piper/Saving Private Leo/Piper was stabbed by Leo's ex Army buddies, then with the help of Phoebe and Paige, she recited the ghost vanquishing spell 23. Paige/Styx Feet Under/In a change of events, she was killed by a demon 24. Piper/Someone to Witch Over Me/Killed by a demon 25. Phoebe/Someone to Witch Over Me/ Killed by a Celerity Demon 27. Piper/Seven Year Witch/Put in a coma by a group of demons 29. Phoebe/Kill Billie 2/ Killed after the manor exploded