nara

I thought she meant supporting him financially before this all started. also, because Ben didn't share anything, she probably thought cooperating with the police would make him look innocent. Clearly she doesn't watch Law & Order either. But why on earth did they dispose of the flashlight without wearing gloves? If they ever do find it, his prints will be all over it.

Great! I am actually a "Claire and Jamie were destined to be together" believer, so I like your thinking! Maybe Laoghaire is the real witch because she lured me to her POV! Thanks for bringing me back.

I meant, if Claire had never fallen though time, he would have married Laoghaire. Without the comparison to Claire, Laoghaire would have looked good and he might not have seen her petty nature--at least, not before they married. It's not clear how Laoghaire is related to Colum, but Jamie is an outlaw and working in the stables, so I don't think it would be too off. Colum may have encouraged the match (into the family) to make aJamie a better potential heir. Plus, Jamie apparently wanted to wait until marriage for sex, so I imagine he'd want to marry pretty soon.

I got a very different vibe from them than you did. I felt the sexual tension between the two characters from almost the very beginning, when she was tending to his wound after he was shot. Then, when they were in Castle Leoch, there were several near-miss kisses. It's after the scene in which he escorts Claire back to the surgery (which was full of eye sex) that he kisses Laoghaire. I interpreted it as Jamie being so horny after his interaction with Claire, that he was willing to hook up with Laoghaire, in whom he was clearly not interested before. After all, Laoghaire was pretty, very interested in him, and available--so why not? However, it was evident to me all along that there was great chemistry between Jamie and Claire, so her decision now is reasonable (though I still would like a little more consideration of Frank).

I felt really bad for Frank too. But then I thought that with so many men dying in WWII, a man like Frank would have women throwing themselves at him, so he's likely to find love and happiness with someone else. Not guaranteed, and doesn't take away from the loss he's had, but I suspect he will be happy in the end. On another topic, it occurred to me that Laoghaire was probably right. She's the one who was destined to marry Jamie if Claire hadn't fallen through time and screwed things up. I'd been so focused on Jamie and Claire that I had forgotten that he would have had a different path if Claire had not fallen through time. He was attracted to Laoghaire and it might have been a good MacKenzie alliance (depending on her status within the clan). Still hate what she did, but it made me think.

Apparently, I’m more of a hopeless romantic than most people in this thread. I found it completely believable that Claire would pick Jamie and all the crap that comes with being with him. But we’ll get to that… This was a great episode and I liked the focus on Claire and Geillis, especially the evolution from Claire’s initial coldness to Geillis to them being friends again to the prisoner’s dilemma issue of whether Claire would turn on Geillis to Claire’s decision not to throw her friend under the bus to Geillis’s ultimate sacrifice. The only other episode like this was the Wedding, which focused on Claire and Jamie’s new marriage and it gives good opportunity for character development. I have to admit that when I saw only 4 actors’ names in the titles, I was a little skeptical but it worked out. BTW, for someone who spent a few days in the hole without eating much or bathing, Geillis sure looked gorgeous! Must be the pregnancy glow! Also BTW, I thought her belly looked pretty real. I wondered if it was makeup or if she was told to have a really big meal before shooting! ;) Regarding the trial... • I found it very scary that the accused could not speak in their own defense. At the same time, I wished Claire would shut up. Or as someone mentioned above, she could have denied Laoghaire’s accusation, rather than trying to explain it. But I guess her guilt was a foregone conclusion, so she had nothing to lose by trying to fight back. • Did anyone else notice that the 3 female witness said things that had some sort of basis in fact but the one male witness did not? (Have we even seen that guy before?) Not sure if there was meant to be a message there… (BTW, the changeling baby’s mother has the most beautiful eyes, especially when they showed her in the woods.) • I’m a little surprised that Laoghaire was able to come and give evidence. I doubt that Colum would approve of her getting involved. Also, would there be any repercussion for her admitting to asking a witch for a love potion? That is, do the customers of witches get any punishment or just the practitioners? I did notice that she made herself scarce when Jamie arrived, and I'm sad we didn't get to see him give her a look of repulsion. I feel sorry for Laoghaire losing the love of her life, but I really hope she gets some sort of payback for her terrible behavior. I did think it very interesting that Jamie apparently told Claire about Laoghaire’s attempt at seduction. I don’t believe that happened on screen, but it is indicative of the “truth between Jamie and Claire”. • Father Bain. His entrance into the court was exactly what I expected – all fire and brimstone. It completely took me by surprise that he acknowledged Claire’s superiority when it came to rescuing young Tom Baxter. However, I cannot decide if his testimony ultimately helped or hurt and his reaction when they were condemned to death was a bit of a mystery to me. • Ned Gowan is the MAN. I liked the way he calmly turned the testimony of each witness, and especially the gentle way he dealt with the grieving changeling mother. He really did seem to want to help Claire. The last ditch attempt with his gun was pretty funny, but gallant too. It reminded me of the fight during the Rent episode, when he was so proud of his one contribution—shooting his gun. • I did wonder if Geillis mentioning she was pregnant would have any impact on her punishment once she was found guilty. If she hadn’t said it was Satan’s child but had just said it was her husband’s child, would they have not thrown her into the hole (I mean literally—they threw her down the hole rather than letting her climb down), would they have fed her better, and would they have delayed the trial/sentence? Or would they kill her and the unborn child regardless? The Future Reveal(s) Loved the double reveal that Geillis is from the future and Claire’s revelation to Jamie. I got the impression that Geillis deliberately came back to support Bonnie Prince Charlie, and I hope we’ll get more details later about how that was accomplished. Also, did she influence Dougal to become a Jacobite or was he always one. I thought it interesting that after she realized that Claire was not there for a similar/or opposing purpose, Geillis saved her. If Claire had deliberately come back to make changes in history, would Geillis have let her live? The reveal to Jamie was a relief and his sorrow for beating Claire when she was only trying to get back to her husband was sweet. (I love love love scenes with Jamie and Claire together—the actors play off each other so well!) I’m a little surprised that Jamie was so quickly accepting of Claire’s story. I mean, he’s always known there was something off about her even though she wasn’t a spy, but that story is a bit farfetched. However, I can believe that now that there are no secrets between them, their love will truly transcend the physical passion and genuine affection that they already have. For this reason, I can believe that Claire would choose to stay with Jamie, despite all the issues in 1743. I would have liked to have a voiceover talking about her decision. Was it hard? Did she have any regrets about Frank at all? As people mentioned in the comments on previous episodes, we have not gotten a great sense of where her heart lies with regard to Frank—and that’s a real failure IMHO. I can believe that she chose Jamie, I cannot believe that she would not consider the pros and cons of her options. In fact, it might have been better to spend a little time with her having the debate in her mind and end the episode with her walking towards the stone. The fact that she returned to Jamie could have been the very first scene in the next episode. Sorry for my long posts. I just love this show that much!

You're absolutely right, but isn't it strange that the people who know him well seem genuinely worried about his behavior--enough so to call Claire to help?

I just took it for granted that she had an abortion because she felt like they could not afford another child. As she made clear in this episode, Ben's inability to bring home the bacon was a very sore spot. Is it possible she killed the child for financial reasons? If it came out that Ben was the father he would have to pay child support. Also, regardless of money, that lawyer looks sleazy. Something just occurred to me from the last episode. Kevin tortured Ben because he was having an affair with Jess while her husband was off fighting for his country. How could Ben not realize then that the child was his? It's not as though she could have had set with both men in a short time period. Apparently I have not been paying attention...

Okay, so I went back and looked at some scenes and here's what I found: When Claire meets Geillis, Geillis already knows who Claire is. That could just be local gossip, but it could indicate that Dougal told her. When Jamie takes Laoghaire's beating, Geillis shows Claire a better way around the castle to get to Jamie and attend to his wounds. This shows some real familiarity with the castle. Dougal offers to take Claire to Geillis's house to restock her medicines. There is no indication that he's planning to meet Geillis, but he must have some way of knowing that Claire would be welcome at a Geillis's house that day. (There is a line that could be interpreted as Dougal planning to go to Geillis's house, but I understood it to mean that he would escort Claire, not that he was going there anyway.) Perhaps he just assumed Geillis would be at home and would want to meet Claire, but that might be too presumptuous. More likely the two of them discussed it. Claire asks Geillis if she arranged the visit, and Geillis replies that there are some questions that can't be answered. During Claire's visit, there is no bill or indication that Geillis is sending a message to Dougal--at least, not in the show. So my conclusion is that there have been hints, but they were pretty darn subtle IMHO.

I think she understands the risk to Geillis to be known as a murderer and an adulterer--crimes in which Claire cannot be implicated. That's why she asked her to run. I don't think she quite understood the risk Geillis faced of being accused of witchcraft, in which Claire could be found guilty by association. I do think you're right that Claire is more likely than most people to take risks because of her war experience and her natural instinct to stand up for what's right. On a clothing note: Is this the first time we've seen Jamie wearing pants and not a kilt? Also, I kind like that Geillis's hood has a pointy end like a witch's hat. I assume she sexed Jamie into a deep sleep and snuck out! ;)

I laughed that there were 2 references to Claire's English coldness in this episode--ironic for an episode that started with some clearly unprudish behavior! BTW, Starz's idea of brief nudity and mine are very different. LOL-Murtagh! Surely you know better than to band on the door of a newly married couple in the early morning. And the awkwardness of finding Claire in a clearly post-orgasmic state--loved it. Perhaps Jamie needs to institute a sock on the door policy! I liked that Claire confronted Laoghaire, though I wish Jamie had done it and made his position clear. Was hoping that Jamie and Claire would show a lot of public PDA so we could see Laoghaire's reaction. I only hope that Claire will not lose Mrs. Fitz as a friend in the process. When Laoghaire gave that sly look at the end, after arranging for Claire to be arrested, I wanted to jump through my TV screen and throttle her. (Is there an app for that?) I enjoyed the extra time with Geillis Duncan. I had been missing her character. The flashback/forward to the ladies at Craigh Na Dun was well done. I would not have made the connection myself. Now we know that Geillis practices witchcraft, so I don't understand why Claire doesn't see the risks in associating with her. I know we didn't burn witches in 1945, but still... Girlfriend is a sloooow learner. Jamie could have been a little clearer about the threat to ensure she understands the seriousness. But why didn't she confront Geillis about selling Laoghaire the ill-wish? Did she not believe Laoghaire? Surely after seeing that weird dance in the woods and knowing that Geillis sells the girls herbs to induce abortions (from one of the earlier episodes), etc. she must realize that an ill-wish would be within her wheelhouse. (ETA: CatMack pointed out that I missed this discussion in the show. Thanks, CatMack! Must have been distracted by the crazy dancing/spirit sex or whatever it was.) Okay, so I am not buying the Dougal-Geillis love affair. Of course, I can imagine that Dougal would not leave such a beautiful woman as Geillis alone, when he made a pass at Claire on her wedding day. However, there has been no interaction between them before and no hint that they have even had a conversation. It felt a little like a plot twist thrown in there. I also thought Dougal's reaction to his wife's death was odd--and frankly, not well acted. I can accept that he feels guilty because he's left her at their estate and is carrying on with Geillis and fathered Hamish, but the nature of his grief seemed more like someone who was genuinely sad at her death. And Geillis murdering her husband? Man that's cold! Duke of Sandringham-- I like Simon Callow in this role--he's quite fun. But how did Claire go to visit him without Jamie knowing? That duel seemed really strange and perhaps just an opportunity to show off Jamie's fighting skills. Or can we hope that Jamie's outlaw status is nearly at an end? I don't quite understand why Claire was so mad at Jamie for getting injured. He was attacked--what was he supposed to do? Collum -- Is it me, or is he getting more and more detached from reality? He seems to think that no one can do anything without his leave, and seems to be alienating himself from all his supporters. I'm curious about the long-term impact of his actions to his lairdship. Or does he know his days are numbered and is trying desperately to hang on to any power that he has? I do think it was smart to keep Claire a hostage to Jamie's good behavior.

I agree that Claire is shown nude or partially so more than I think is necessary, which is odd for a show that has such a large female audience. However, I wouldn't necessarily include Frank as an example because I think that more established actors like Tobias have a better ability to negotiate for less nudity than newcomers like Cait and Sam. Also, due to the way we perceive top nudity differently for men and women, the balance may seem more skewed than perhaps it actually is. I also wonder if the excessive focus on Claire's nudity in this episode is due to it being from Jamie's perspective?

I agree. I didn't mean to imply that Dougal was up to something against Laoghaire, but rather that the beating Jamie received was about more than justice.

I'm fine with the episode as is, but I wonder if it would have been helpful to show Dougal (or his agent) strapping someone along the way for disobeying orders to show how normal it is in that society before we get to this scene. We have: Loaghaire almost being beaten, but Jamie takes it himself. However, Jamie shows off by choosing fists and there is some implication that Dougal's intent is more than just punishment. Murtagh says that Dougal is "up to something" The boy with his ear nailed is somewhat at the mercy of Father Bain, who is established as evil and malicious Jamie's flogging is at the hands of Blackjack, who is evil to the power of infinity Therefore, there is no real example of beating as justice--without anger, malice, or sex as a driver. Showing Dougal punishing someone and then everyone getting back to normal might have helped set the context. Unless the moral is that it's never truly justice and it always has some other underlying reason? Oooh, I might have just blown my OWN mind! ;)

I think it's entirely possible that Scarlett or Laoghaire would have continued to obsess, but my point was more about what Ashley and Jamie should have done. Perhaps, but I do think a "what in heavens made you leave the spot after you promised me you'd stay there?" might have been good and avoided the concern that he didn't consider her feelings. She still wouldn't have had a good answer, so he would have still punished her. However, as far as he knows, a wild animal approached the spot where they were waiting and she was trying to avoid being attacked. I will give him the benefit of the doubt, though, because he was out of his mind with fear and then overcome with the emotions of relief.

I do agree that the biggest issue is that Jamie didn't bother to ask her what happened. He just assumed she was doing something silly like wandering away from Willie.

I didn't think it was victim blaming. I thought it was fear. I think this would resonate with parents. Your kids do something that puts them at risk. It may be something stupid or just unthinking. While they are in danger, you're focused on getting them safe. Then when they are safe, your pent up emotions come out as yelling at them for not thinking of for doing something foolish. I don't have kids, but have observed this phenomenon many, many times.

The book thread has spoilers for ALL the books, not just the first one, so I highly recommend you avoid it altogether. I thought it would just have spoilers for the book that matched the show season and ended up seeing things in the very first post that I didn't want to see. :( Something similar happened with Game of Thrones and it didn't hurt my enjoyment at all, so I'm hoping the same thing is true here...

Thanks. Will check it out. But Indian women put on 6 yards or 9 yard saris standing up so I'm skeptical. :)

WatchrTina, I think a lot of folks who were previousl Show-only have read the book(s) during the drought. There seem to me a lot more comments in the Book Spoiler thread now than last fall. What a fun episode! I loved that the scene of Jamie throwing stones at the beginning ended up being the one with Laoghaire. I actually liked the Jamie POV, especially since it helped with a number of scenes in this episode, but I think I prefer Claire's POV in general. But why can't Jamie put his kilt on standing up? It seems like if you had to get dressed quickly, lying down to do so would be impractical! Jamie/Claire/Blackjack -- well played by all of them. I could have done without the prolonged view of Claire's breasts, though. I yelled out, "Jamie, distract him by offering to show him your scars!" I think that might have actually worked. Loved the plunge into the water--looked and sounded fantastic. The fight between Claire and Jamie was sad, but well done. For a second, it looked like Jamie was going to collapse from a heart attack. One thing that's strange is that I believe we've never seen any sign of Jamie being all that traditional with gender roles, so it was odd to see it in the first fight and the later punishment scene. The punishment scene was awesome and hilarious. I laughed the whole time, especially at the comments from the peanut gallery. Claire certainly got a few good shots in herself, especially that kick! The humor of it all kept it from being misogynistic, as it easily could have been. I wonder if they laughed their heads off filming it. Man, what an awkward entrance into Leoch, though I'm glad to be back there. Mrs. Fitz was delighted, as expected (and I think all of us need someone like her cheering us on), but Claire and Jamie were clearly at odds and Collum didn't even try to hide his anger. Jamie and Laoghaire: I know that he was trying to be kind, but I felt like he was leading her on. It reminded me so much of Gone With the Wind's Ashley Wilkes-- Scarlett O'Hara--Melanie Hamilton triangle. Instead of just telling Scarlett that he was in love with his wife, Ashley acted like he was with her out of duty and loyalty. Scarlett took this to mean that he was really in love with her and was just with his wife out of duty. If he had just told Scarlett he wasn't interested in her, however harsh that seems, it would have saved Scarlett time and heartache. Jamie did the same thing IMHO and let Laoghaire think his marriage was purely a business arrangement/gallantry. No wonder she thought he would still have sex with her. I cannot believe he let it get as far as it did in this episode. I mean, he should have immediately pushed her away when she tried to seduce him. He held her hand and then her breast for far too long. Even when he left her, it was about a vow, not about his love for his wife (though in the very next scene it was obvious that Jamie and Claire have a very passionate relationship). However, I did LOL that her father was right when he accused her of being loose at the Hall in Castle Leoch episode. Collum and Dougal: The tension between the brothers is great and I think the political story emphasis will help this show be more than a romance. It was obvious that they were at odds over Jamie (in Castle Leoch, Collum is clearly annoyed that Dougal consigned Jamie to the stables) but I had not realized that Collum saw Jamie as a potential successor. I wonder if he agreed to Dougal ensuring his bloodline by fathering Hamish or if Dougal made that decision on his own. I want to see more about this relationship and the politics. I hope we eventually get to see if this clan fights at Culloden. Glad they didn't end the episode with Jamie and Claire still at odds. I also liked the explanation of the key-ring--very sweet and romantic, and it showed how long he had been thinking of sharing everything in life with her. Great sex scene at the end, but I couldn't help but wonder if her butt hurt when she was bouncing up an down like that! Also, ending wth the creepy ill-wish was perfect. Laoghaire will continue to be up to no good--yay!

Josh only had to keep off the ground until his 13th birthday when he became a man by Jewish rites. Josh 1.0 missed by 1 day (and the ceremony) but Josh 2.0 is okay to walk on the ground now

To all who have been annoyed by the repeat chase scenes, congratulations! That will no longer be an issue! Best part of the episode was Lynn (Anne Heche) and the mob scene. Quite scary and well acted IMO. I liked the fact that she landed a solid punch before being taken down. However, her scenes did not appear to move the story forward, but I hope that I'm wrong. Now Peter is pretending to be Emma's father? The creepy factor increases again, but at least this was effective and got him some good info. Plus, she really did have daddy issues. Re: Debbie's escape, is it just me or would it have been better to keep Josh in the car rather than in the trunk. Hard to hold him hostage when he's in the trunk. Also, how did her boyfriend sneak in? I would have thought that the compound would be full of security cameras. Is it possible they wanted her to escape with Josh? Can't think why... Funniest part...Brad's Pit. Awesome!

Alicia should have at least taken some time to meet her existing ASAs before offering the job to FInn, especially since there was a huge discussion recently about whether or not to condemn Peter for racism (or the appearance of it). I can accept that there was a behind the scenes negotiation with Julius that made him have some authority at FA. However, the magical disappearance of all the associates who left LG with Cary and Alicia is annoying. As someone mentioned, what became of Robyn? When was the last time we saw her? Very sloppy storytelling. Since FA took over the LG offices in that "who owns the lease" discussion, I guess we're supposed to assume that they are using the same servers too. The writers appear to regret having FA separate from LG and are trying to ignore that it happened. I also think they've just gotten sloppy. It would appear that Josh Charles chose the right time to leave!

First of all, our Ben isn't the brightest of bulbs, so he might not have noticed. Also, it's likely that Kevin's dislike was more hidden until the murder. I actually thought that the shark-jumping happened last week with the super-tech-savvy-master-criminal (see the comparison's to Pretty Little Liars in last episode's thread), so I was pleased to see it quickly resolved, waterboarding notwithstanding. Biggest disappointment was that I thought that Kevin had "real" evidence that Ben was guilty (like seeing him stumbling drunk into Jess's house the night of the murder) so his strange assumption of guilt because Ben slept with a soldier's wife was a let down. I did like the idea of Ben and Cornell having a rapprochement of sorts (due to her offer of protection and her eventually saving him) only to be immediately split apart by the reporter's interest in proving something against her. I hope that Ben is smart enough to check if the reporter has a personal axe to grind, but I fear that he is not. I also liked the moment when we realized that Dave had inadvertently brought the flashlight back into the house. I let out a "No!" when that happened.

You're right to focus. A big part of my problem with the series is that I have been doing other stuff while watching it. Thanks also for clarifying about the bald guy and letting us know that the Israeli officer's partner is also a cop. I missed that. BTW, I think the girl's name is Emma Wilson (or are you imagining Hermione Granger in the role?), but I agree that she seemed to target him. I also had a crackpot theory while watching this episode that all the different threads are actually not happening at the same time. For example, the Peter Connelly thread is happening years earlier than the Josh thread, and Debbie (Lauren Ambrose) is actually Peter's red haired daughter who is believed to be dead, but just missing and in the compound. But of course, that could just be the wine.