lizonthefritz

I totally agree on the breach of trust, especially because it's so very obvious that they put no effort at all into changing this scenario from the couple they first dreamed it up for - Oliver/Laurel. Because OF COURSE Samantha would beg Oliver not to tell Laurel - her friend! - that she had betrayed her, and OF COURSE Oliver would see this news as a very real threat to his current relationship since this was real life evidence of his unfaithfulness at a different time of their lives, and OF COURSE Oliver would do everything in his power to make sure that Laurel didn't get hurt by this news or break up with him because of it. (I don't think the unilateral decision-making that was the nail in Olicity's coffin would have even become a thing had KC remained as LI.) In order to make Felicity and Oliver fit the scenario, they were forced to twist and distort their characters (mainly Oliver's, but Felicity's OOC reaction to the news in the first timeline on The Flash also comes to mind), when they could just as well have come up with a completely different scenario. I just think they writers were so in love with the idea that they could hearken back to a plot point that had already spanned several seasons that they just couldn't even conceive of letting it go for the sake of the characters. And THAT'S why I can't trust them anymore.

I still don't see how Laurel's character traits translate into a season-long arc. Especially considering an arc has a starting point and an ending point, usually with a lesson learned along the way. Laurel dying from her own poor choices and rash action wouldn't be the end of an arc in my mind, it would just be chickens finally coming home to roost. Not to mention, I'm not sure the writers see her that way, they seem to be willfully blind to Laurel's mistakes, maybe because they just don't care enough about her to put in the effort to actually write her well.

I don't feel that the BM reaction has anything to do with a seasonal arc for Laurel. At most, it's her having her eyes opened as to what her relationship with Oliver really was (i.e. not the grand romance she - or at least KC - imagined), giving her a chance to close the book on that whole mess. But that's something that's been ongoing since season 1 and not really applicable to her current situation. I gotta agree with @dtissagirl, a few disparate events do not a seasonal arc make.

But none of these things that you mention are an arc for Laurel. They don't even affect her. It's actually as if they did her one final disservice by having one of her last actions on the show kickstart a bunch of storylines for other characters while leaving her with a big fat goose egg.

I agree. The fact that there was no new arc for her this season was a big reason why I was 80 % convinced she was in the grave before this latest batch of spoilers came out. I could only think of three reasons for why they were writing her this way: She was in the grave and that was the only arc they needed for her this season. They were planning to turn her evil, probably by killing off Quentin, and didn't want to tip their hand too early. They really REALLY didn't give a crap about her at all.

Going back to the discussion a few pages back about the network being the roadblock to the writers killing off/writing off Laurel, I feel that there could be some real merit to that. Just the fact that they've overhauled the character every season (except for this one, which could be a clue as to who's in the grave in and of itself) shows that the writers felt that she wasn't working. So the network probably insisted that they keep her, they spitball a number of ideas, pitch it to the CW, get the go-ahead, and start writing it. I feel like the writers' approach to Laurel at the start of every new season has had a decided "going back to school" feeling about it. You may not love school (read: the fact that the network is forcing you to write for Laurel), but you're recharged and raring to go, wanting to give it your all. But by mid-season, you're just tired of writing for a character that doesn't inspire you, leading to lackluster arcs, if any at all. I'm about 99% convinced that Laurel's in the grave (up from about 80% during the winter hiatus) and I'm hoping it means good things for the characters I actually care about if she's gone. I don't expect miracles, these are after all the writers who thought BMD was a good idea, but I at least hope my favorite characters will be given more to do now that they're not writing for the dead weight.

I think they definitely know who's dying and are writing towards it, but that they're still hedging their bets and are willing to change their plan if things aren't working out the way they've planned (i.e. the audience isn't reacting the way they expected). FWIW, my money is currently on Lance, but I think it's possible it could be someone introduced this season. Like, I'm expecting to enjoy Curtis/Mr. Terrific quite a bit and him dying would probably have an impact on me by the end of the season.

I don't really see that. I mean, Oliver said no, what was Felicity supposed to do? Force him? I think she tried to keep the peace in order to be able to stay on Team Arrow (if TA wasn't a factor, I think she would have gone away for a long time to lick her wounds before she was able to face Oliver again, making all the times he refused to allow her the space to move on moot). I agree, I didn't watch a season of Felicity pining over Oliver, I watched a season of Felicity doing everything to get over him and him not allowing her to. The only way for her to escape the torture of hearing him declare his love with one breath and reaffirming that they can't be together with the next would have been to leave Team Arrow. And I think that's a pretty assholeish thing to do to someone you love - take from them a mission that they're committed to just because you feel that a declaration of your feelings is more important than their emotional well-being. Of course, that's if I'm thinking of it from a real world perspective. On the show? I still kind of love that Oliver loves her so much that he can't help but tell her so at every turn. *shrug*

I'd say that for the most part he doesn't have to trust Ray because he's not working alongside him on a regular basis. In this isolated case, he'll trust Felicity's faith in the suit because the suit is actually the best weapon they have against the metahuman (arguably even better than the Arrow since his skin isn't laserproof). So teaching Ray is a by-product of the need for the suit, not the start of a mentorship. Laurel, on the other hand, he actively distrusts and downright resents for shouldering her way onto his team without his say-so. In some ways I get Felicity's defense of Laurel, but I think she's wrong. It won't be her life on the line if Laurel can't get it done in the field so she should let the decision of whether or not Laurel will tag along in a fight up to Oliver.

I don't really mean "trust them as a person", but "trust them as a vigilante". He knows enough about Laurel to know her skills are limited and her motives are shaky at best.

To me, this doesn't count as a strike against Oliver because the only reason he comes off as super controlling is because she's always horning in on HIS mission. Like, if she'd only go off and do her own thing, he wouldn't have to tell her to get some training because HE WOULDN'T BE THERE. So why does she keep tagging along where she's not wanted instead of doing her own thing? (Other than for plot reasons.) Honestly, as much as I don't care for more screentime for Laurel, pleeeease give her her own story, and her own supporting players so she can get the hell off of Team Arrow.

My take on the difference between Laurel and the other vigilantes: Oliver doesn't trust her. Doesn't trust her skills, doesn't trust her motives. And another difference between her and the others is that he's forced to go out and fight with her, not knowing if her inexperience is going to become a liability to him in said fight. All the other vigilantes Oliver comes across have their own motives, their own fights. But Laurel just sort of tags along on his missions for some ungodly reason. Shouldn't she be out there finding her own missions? Helping others because it's the right thing to do?

There was also Thea and Roy. And with all these examples of established relationships, I can't think of one I thought was written badly. But I know, the conventional wisdom is that happiness can't be allowed to stand and relationships can never last on a TV show. But oh how I wish someone would try to buck the system and have a relationship that is the bulwark that weathers every storm. Let other things provide the angst and let the romance be the one solid thing that the hero can rely on, the thing that means he/she always prevails in the end. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen a show that has done this. As for MG's explanation, I agree. I don't think that's it at all. I think Oliver refuses to train Laurel or help her in any way because he wants her to give up the vigilante life. In a way, yes because he cares, but also because he doesn't think she fits. Not just into his team, but as a vigilante at all. He's all about control, superior skill, sacrifice. And Laurel is reckless, unskilled and selfish (in her motivation for becoming a vigilante). As for Ray, I think Oliver trains him a) because he needs him to accomplish this particular mission and that means getting him up to snuff, and b) yes, because he doesn't care, but also because while he doesn't know Ray enough to know if his (vigilante) heart is in the right place, he's willing to trust Felicity's judgment in this case.

To my way of thinking, Oliver and Felicity are already in a relationship, it just hasn't been officially moved into the "romantic relationship" category yet. They know each other better than most couples do after months and months of dating, simply because of the intense conditions they work and have gotten to know each other under. I honestly have no problem with either of them knowing that this is it for them, even without the trappings of a first date and moving in together and all that jazz. I don't need those frilly things, I've seen them countless times on other shows and I think what Oliver and Felicity have has moved beyond that. I think it might actually be refreshing to clear away all the question marks and watch a couple who know each other so well, yet don't really know at all how the other is in a relationship, slowly getting to know each other's relationship selves while at the same time being a very settled couple. Which isn't to say that I actually want this to happen, because I don't trust these writers to pull it off.

Last time I checked, a marriage was a relationship, so in what way would the viewers be robbed of "the entire relationship"? Since Arrow takes place (pretty much) in real time, a Felicity/Oliver wedding be a quick affair from their perspective as well, it's not like they're going to have an onscreen caption: "18 months later" and then them getting married. (At least I hope that's not what they're going to do!) To me, them getting married and them starting dating at the end of the season would mean the same thing: I'll miss the start of their relationship, the honeymoon period, only to be dropped back in when things start to go pear-shaped again. Which is not something I particularly want, but to me it doesn't matter if that period is spent as a dating couple or a married couple. I'm holding out a teeny tiny hope that if they actually have Oliver and Felicity marry at the end of the season, it will be a quickie wedding because they want to have it settled for good so they can concentrate on the more comic-y aspects of the show and stop wasting time on romantic storylines (for Oliver, at least). And the only reason for the accelerated timeline is that they want Felicity to be caught between her husband and her father as they try to kill each other next season. I know, it's probably a pipedream, but considering how bad they seem to be at writing a relationship trajectory when the purpose is to keep them apart (second half of season 2 and all of season 3), I'd be happier to give them a chance to write an established relationship, which is something we haven't actually seen on this show with the exception of peripheral relationships like Tommy/Laurel and Moira/Walter - neither of which I had any real problems with, BTW. Of course, my preference would be Oliver and Felicity back in a friendly place at the end of the season, but with Felicity wary of Oliver's tendency to give up waaaay too easily when the going gets tough. Then 3.5 comics filled with build-up of sexual tension, continued for the first few episodes of season 4 (I want light-hearted flirting on my TV screen, dammit!), with actual dating starting around November sweeps.

I took the third point as "it's not a fake-out wedding", not that we'd necessarily see this marriage on-screen. I think it's possible it's Tatsu and Maseo. I think they're pretty much the only couple where it would feel at least somewhat organic.

I think her job in season 1 was their one and only attempt to show this apparent altruistic streak in her, but then they took that away and nothing since has made me think at all that Laurel was someone who cared about others in any significant way. I wonder if they thought that was supposed to be enough to put the audience in a permanent mode of "Laurel Lance is a good person", even as they completely trashed her character? Like, that one act was supposed to outweigh everything that came after (and during)?

I've had a hard time seeing Laurel as a hero at all, and the highlighted portion really made it click for me why that is: Laurel's drive seems to be all about the glory of being looked at as a hero, not about actually doing good for others. (I admit, KC's apparent input into her costume, with the matching nail polish and lipstick miiight play into this a little.) And it also harkens back to the Oliver/Laurel relationship in that I never saw actual love between them, but most especially from her (which is weird considering what an absolute ass Ollie was to her when they were together - it's still her feelings I doubt). Turning a blind eye to someone's repeated infidelities doesn't sound at all like what a person who loves someone would do. It sounds like what someone does when they are in love with the idea of what their own life will be like if they're with that person. Basically, whenever Laurel or Oliver proclaim their great love in season one all I see is a golddigger and a jerk who wants to think that he's a nice guy, when he's actually a shitty person.

I would totally want Felicity and Oliver to get married if I trusted these writers to leave it at a mature and supportive relationship that added to Oliver's journey to becoming whole again. But I don't trust them, I think tropes is all they know how to write and god forbid anyone ever try to break away from the tropest trope to ever trope - ESPECIALLY when it comes to writing romance. So Oliver/Felicity getting married this season is a hard pass for me too. I like your theory about Black Canary and Arrow, and it would explain why they made it so toxic, even back in season 1 (in season 2 I think they were actively trying to torpedo it to make way for a new pairing).

Regarding this other wedding we're getting this season, I've had this idea percolating in my mind for a while and I want to throw it out there just in case. I keep thinking about how flashback!Oliver isn't as far along as I'd think he would be at this point. He's over halfway into his five years and he's still kind of bumbling and somewhat good-natured, so what turned him into the cold and hard vigilante from early season 1? Also, how do they get him to that point and then get him back to the island in time for his pick-up in two years? (Not impossible if that was all the show was about, but they have to tell that story all in short flashback bursts.) My idea is that we see flashback!Oliver getting married. And that's pretty much it for this season. Then next season they back up a few months and see how it all happened - some Bratva bigshot's beloved daughter falls head over heels (and most likely Oliver too?), they marry, Oliver is put on the Bratva fast track and then she's killed (or dies, but I figure killing her would bring out revenge!Oliver and explain his decent into darkness much easier/faster than a drawn-out depression that leads to anger and lashing out at the world). And that doesn't preclude a Felicity/Oliver marriage (a pet theory that quite a few seem fond of. And I might be as well if I trusted that it was done with the right mindframe and not "we'll give them a honeymoon period that lasts two episodes and then things start to fall apart"). In fact, it could be a good way to parallel a quickie marriage based mostly on lustful feelings to one where the couple have a depth of understanding and love that has been reached only after years of trust.

My only fanwank is that Lance called her that in a press briefing (perhaps also as a veiled warning to Laurel to stop what she's doing?) and then Laurel, like you said, appropriated it in an act of defiance and as a means of empowering herself. The only problem with that is that the only reason for her to do so (that I can think of) is out of spite and anger against her father and she has absolutely no reason to be angry with him, SHE'S the one who betrayed him, not the other way around. Not that that's stopped her from being pissy that he hasn't forgiven her yet. I mean, GOD, it's been like...what? Five minutes? Isn't he over it already? I would never hold a grudge that long! /Laurel thought process *sigh*

Like others here, I too feel like finally introducing Ray to the A plot is too little, too late. It also made me think of what I would have liked to have seen them do with Ray this season and this is what I came up with: While Felicity and Oliver were getting their flirt on and Diggle and Lyla were getting the nest ready during the summer, Ray was of course mourning Anna, but also figuring out who it was that finally stopped the Mirakuru soldiers, because that's what he wants to do - make sure no one else needs to suffer as he did. (Hey, look at that, his hero mission is clear right off the bat.) He figures out that it was Oliver and company and basically spends the summer stalking them (hey, he's still Ray, and thus comes naturally by his stalkerish tendencies), learning their habits and trying to figure out the right time to approach them. We learn the above through exposition later on, but as the season starts, he visits Felicity at her job as before, but this time he's actually there to get a feel for her as a part of Team Arrow and to see if she would be a good fit for his vision for QC. Then, preferrably in the premiere, but it could be later on, he gains access to the Arrow Cave and enters when the team is there. He comes down the stairs and is met with nocked arrows and angry faces and says "I know what you're doing here and I want to help." Basically offering to be the money guy, building weapons and gadgets, "oh and hey, I've got this idea for a suit". At that point he'd go away for a while so the team can decide if they should take him up on his offer or not. (In the end, the money wins out.) To my way of thinking, this could have opened up a wealth of opportunity to build up the character and still be the source of 'ship conflict (probably even moreso), as well as having added benefits for other characters: Felicity wouldn't have to be isolated from the team in order to get a new love interest. Oliver would see Ray and Felicity together and realize they have much more in common than he and Felicity do, leading to the "necessary" angst. He could start to be trained by Diggle, giving Diggle something to actually do this season. Once Laurel came on board they could be sparring partners, which would mean we actually got to see Laurel train. (Why do we never see her training in the foundry? She's always just standing around when we could see her making an effort to learn how to be a better vigilante, even just in the background.) I mean sure, there are still issues with this scenario, starting and ending with MORE RAY, but maybe a more palatable Ray wouldn't have been as hard to swallow? Also, it could have led to actual conflicted feelings about who Felicity is better off with (right now, I don't even consider Ray a real option since it's very clear the entire purpose of Ray/Felicity is to delay Oliver/Felicity). It feel like the writers haven't put any sort of thought into Ray. They know where they have to get him by the end of the season (ATOM), and they know the beats they have to hit along the way, but they haven't given any thought to who he IS. I knew next to nothing about Green Arrow going into this show, but by the end of the first episode, I had a pretty good idea of who Oliver was and what his journey was going to be. We're 16 episodes into Ray's journey and I have no clue what it's going to be because I have no idea where he's starting from. Who is he? Does he want to save the world from evil? Make criminals pay? Make his own pain go away? So far, it just seems that he's driven to make the suit because he needs to prove to himsel that he can finish it, not so that he can actually use the suit once it's done. The way the writers have laid it out, the suit isn't the starting point of Ray's journey, it's the ending point.

He says "The Arrow isn't enough." Don't know if that's supposed to be a personal observation ("being the Arrow isn't enough for me") or a general one ("the Arrow isn't enough to protect this city").

Plus, Oliver having something worth living for actually ups the stakes for him and for the show. A hero who's willing to lay down his life every other week for the sake of this person and that? Who cares when he's not really making a sacrifice; when he's expecting to die that way one of these days? Now give me someone whose only wish is to make it home at the end of the day - that guy going out and putting his life on the line is someone I'm scared for. As for relationships this season, my biggest wish at the moment is that the only one left standing by the finale is Diggle/Lyla. I hope Felicity breaks off with Ray, but also tells Oliver that while she may love him, she doesn't trust him with her heart (after the mess he's made of things) and they should go back to doing what they do best - kicking bad guys' butts and taking names. Then next season they can start with a fresh slate. And hopefully get it right this time.

I think the pacing of this episode was good, showing that it would be better if they left some characters out of pretty much every episode. Of course next time I would much prefer it not to be Felicity and Diggle. Honestly, I don't see it. Past Quentin was always shitty, we've been told this. The only difference is that this time we're shown it. I guess it just hits home harder when you actually see him acting like an ass? (I count it as acting like an ass more because I think his actions were entirely ruled by his blood alcohol level, not because what he said was necessarily untrue.) Someone else mentioned that it was probably Moira's desk because Thea mentioned her working at QC (which I didn't really catch), but I'd say that it's actually Robert's desk, the entire office being left as a shrine to him and Moira just working around it. Otherwise, I just can't see a reason for Moira to keep a model of the Queen's Gambit. She may have added her own touches, though, because why would Robert keep a picture of just himself? YES. THIS SO MUCH. Laurel I can usually ignore and when she's actually involved in Oliver's plotlines, I usually take his side. Merlin, on the other hand, makes me side-eye Oliver so much this season. Nothing he's done concerning Malcolm this season has made any sense, considering what he knows about him. Or even what he knows about Ra's. Unless he's actually pretending to learn from Malcolm and intends to somehow get Malcolm to sacrifice himself to Ra's. But thematically it makes no sense to set up a battle between The Hero and a villain only to have a usurper come in at the last moment to win the day. Unless, of course, Ra's actually isn't this season's Big Bad. If it was your TV, it was mine as well, because that was truly awful in places. But didn't I read somewhere that they tore down the Queen mansion set?